I take issue with Cliff Cristl's take

[Cleft Crusty]

Hi folks, Cleft Crusty here. Sorry I didn't do the post game chat after the Dolphins game, but I was dragged into Dade County general hospital with chest pains and underwent emergency quadruple bypass surgery. I'm feeling better now that I'm out of the hospital and back home, where I have access to my sun chips and Miller Lite. Anyway, I saw that my doppelganger, Cliff Cristl wrote the following:


"Assessing Driver's impact
In hope that nobody will misinterpret the point I'm about to make, let me first expound on all of Donald Driver's virtues. He's a consummate professional. He could play for any team in the NFL and start for most. If you had two or three great players on your roster and every other player played his position as well as Driver, you'd be in the running to win a Super Bowl.

But here's why Driver isn't one of the game's special playmakers; why if Driver is one of your two or three best players, you're not going to win a Super Bowl or probably even make the playoffs.

On the Packers' first offensive play of Sunday's game, he ran a go pattern up the left sideline. It was the first play in coach Mike McCarthy's script. It obviously was designed to get a quick strike. It created a mismatch for the Packers that should have been exploited. The call put Driver in a one-on-one situation with Andre' Goodman, a backup cornerback who was starting for Miami due to injury.

But Driver couldn't get get a step on Goodman and, worse yet, he wound up running up his back for an offensive pass interference penalty.

True, it was only one play. And, later, Driver made an outstanding catch for a 34-yard touchdown, one of the big plays of the game. He finished with 10 receptions for 93 yards, a 9.3 average. He played a key role in the Packers' victory by keeping the chains moving, including on a fourth-and-one reverse where he had to elude a defensive lineman to make the play. But Driver's contribution was mostly as a possession receiver. On his other nine catches, he averaged 6.6 yards.

Basically, that's what Driver is: A possession receiver. And what makes him better than most who fall into that category is that he makes more big plays. Not a bundle, but enough to put him near the top among all the possession receivers in the league.

What he's not is an elite receiver. He's not Randy Moss. He's not Javon Walker.

Driver doesn't have that kind of big-play ability. That's why Pro Football Weekly with the assistance of personnel people around the league ranked him as the 27th best receiver in the game before this season. On some boards around the league, he might be closer to 20.

But that's not good enough if he's your primary playmaker on offense or your main receiving threat unless you're a team with other special players at other positions or a suffocating defense."

---

I have to take issue with the statement "If you had two or three great players on your roster and every other player played his position as well as Driver, you'd be in the running to win a Super Bowl."

This is obviously absurd. If you had every position manned by a guy playing at Driver's level you certainly wouldn't need "two or three great players." Driver is clearly above average for his position (even Cristl gives him the benefit of being the 20th best WR). Many teams play with a number of marginal guys at multiple positions, and make up for it with great play by others. For example, Seattle used the combination of Walter Jones, Hutchinson, and Alexander to dominate football games, despite a lot of very average guys littered throughout their roster. Simply put, if you had 21 guys playing at the same respective level as Driver, with Driver's effort, the Packers would be destroying the competition.

[vince]

Hi folks, Cleft Crusty here. Sorry I didn't do the post game chat after the Dolphins game, but I was dragged into Dade County general hospital with chest pains and underwent emergency quadruple bypass surgery. I'm feeling better now that I'm out of the hospital and back home, where I have access to my sun chips and Miller Lite. Anyway, I saw that my doppelganger, Cliff Cristl wrote the following:


"Assessing Driver's impact
In hope that nobody will misinterpret the point I'm about to make, let me first expound on all of Donald Driver's virtues. He's a consummate professional. He could play for any team in the NFL and start for most. If you had two or three great players on your roster and every other player played his position as well as Driver, you'd be in the running to win a Super Bowl.

But here's why Driver isn't one of the game's special playmakers; why if Driver is one of your two or three best players, you're not going to win a Super Bowl or probably even make the playoffs.

On the Packers' first offensive play of Sunday's game, he ran a go pattern up the left sideline. It was the first play in coach Mike McCarthy's script. It obviously was designed to get a quick strike. It created a mismatch for the Packers that should have been exploited. The call put Driver in a one-on-one situation with Andre' Goodman, a backup cornerback who was starting for Miami due to injury.

But Driver couldn't get get a step on Goodman and, worse yet, he wound up running up his back for an offensive pass interference penalty.

True, it was only one play. And, later, Driver made an outstanding catch for a 34-yard touchdown, one of the big plays of the game. He finished with 10 receptions for 93 yards, a 9.3 average. He played a key role in the Packers' victory by keeping the chains moving, including on a fourth-and-one reverse where he had to elude a defensive lineman to make the play. But Driver's contribution was mostly as a possession receiver. On his other nine catches, he averaged 6.6 yards.

Basically, that's what Driver is: A possession receiver. And what makes him better than most who fall into that category is that he makes more big plays. Not a bundle, but enough to put him near the top among all the possession receivers in the league.

What he's not is an elite receiver. He's not Randy Moss. He's not Javon Walker.

Driver doesn't have that kind of big-play ability. That's why Pro Football Weekly with the assistance of personnel people around the league ranked him as the 27th best receiver in the game before this season. On some boards around the league, he might be closer to 20.

But that's not good enough if he's your primary playmaker on offense or your main receiving threat unless you're a team with other special players at other positions or a suffocating defense."

---

I have to take issue with the statement "If you had two or three great players on your roster and every other player played his position as well as Driver, you'd be in the running to win a Super Bowl."

This is obviously absurd. If you had every position manned by a guy playing at Driver's level you certainly wouldn't need "two or three great players." Driver is clearly above average for his position (even Cristl gives him the benefit of being the 20th best WR). Many teams play with a number of marginal guys at multiple positions, and make up for it with great play by others. For example, Seattle used the combination of Walter Jones, Hutchinson, and Alexander to dominate football games, despite a lot of very average guys littered throughout their roster. Simply put, if you had 21 guys playing at the same respective level as Driver, with Driver's effort, the Packers would be destroying the competition.

Preach on Crusty.

The other thing that bothers me is when writers, like Christl does above, make an argument by saying in effect, "if you take away the big plays that the guy has made, then he hasn't made any big plays..."

Making an argument about a guy, or a running game, or anything else for that matter by saying, "if you take away the exceptions to my argument, then my argument holds water" is ridiculous and absurd.

Another example is Green's 70-yard run last week. Alot of people say, "without that big play, the running game sucked." Well duh. That's why you commit to running, and emphasize the importance of developing a strong running attack, because eventually, you're going to break one. That's the sign of success.

Typically, if you're scoring 24 points a game, that's a pretty solid effort. That means that you're scoring 3 touchdowns. If one person is making one of those scoring plays, that's going to be a league-leading receiver over the course of a season.

The play that Donald Driver made was a great play. That's making plays. You can't "take away" the big plays Cliff, and say that someone isn't a playmaker after you do so.

The other thing that Christl does in this article is talk out of both sides of his mouth. Driver is good, but yet he's not. Well, Cliff, you're wrong about that. No, you're right. No, well, what are you Cliff? I'd say you're a guy who writes about an pasttime that is not as simplistic as putting a bunch of tallented individuals together to make a "team" - a concept he seems to know very little about.

[MJZiggy]

Dear Mr. Crusty,

I tend to find that the best response to what that Crusty wanna-be wrote is just a simple "bite me." Concise and really says it all. In your well-reasoned response, you might have mentioned how Mr. Walker is now complaining about the lack of balls thrown his way in Denver. If Jake Plummer isn't looking for him every down like he thought Brett Favre was, maybe they don't think of him as highly as Mr. Christl seems to.

[prsnfoto]

you guys are taking this personally driver is an above average player and stellar team (packer) player, he is not a playmaker that statement is true at this point jennings is more of a playmaker jmho.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Driver isn't a playmaker? What a crock! The guy is faster than people give him credit for. He can take it to the house. Just watch the slant he housed against Minnesota last year. He's made big plays. He's made leaping plays. He's ran well on reverses. He gains yards after the catch. He's made a lot of defenders look silly with his moves. He always fights for extra yards. The guy is doing what the team asks of him. If they had a couple of good possession WRs playing next to him, he could go deep more often. As it is, they don't take a lot of changes deep, and they need Driver to run a lot of underneath and middle routes. Otherwise, this offense might not get anything done in the passing game. People have pigeon-holed this guy. He's not huge, so he can't take the pounding that a Terrell Owens. Otherwise, he can do whatever you need a WR to do.

Jennings a better playmaker than Driver at this stage? Please. He got loose on one route that he took 70 yards (with the help of Driver's block). What other play has he made that would constitute him being a better playmaker than Driver? The two other TDs he's caught are similar to a bunch of plays that Driver has made over the years.

I can see why he plays with a chip on his shoulder. Year in, year out he's been one of the best receivers in football. He seldom gets the true credit he deserves. He makes plays whether Javon Walker, Greg Jennings, Ruvell Martin, or Robert Ferguson is next to him. He makes plays when he's single-teamed, double-teamed, triple-teamed. He is a constant that Green Bay cannot do without right now. If I had to choose whether Jennings or Driver would miss a game, I'd choose Jennings hands down right now. Jennings may get better, but Driver is so underrated it makes me want to puke.

[MJZiggy]

Harv, I think this is what Simms was talking about in that article posted in another thread. Except this time it's the receiver instead of the qb.

[CaptainKickass]

"Javon Walker complaining about a lack of balls"

That's just way too funny.

Sincerely

Captain Context

:mrgreen: :D

[Tarlam!]

What Red and Harvey said..... :cat:

[prsnfoto]

Settle down Harv you're going to have a heartattack I define a playmaker as someone who takes it to the hole and that has been Jennings thus far 2 long ones obviously DD is a big part of that as he draws double teams. He is not from the same pedigree as Javon,T.O,Jerry Rice etc that doesn't mean I don't want him on the team and don't respect him for christs sake.
I'll be at the game probably sideline or stadium view let me buy you a beer.

[woodbuck27]

At this point in his career I have to go with DD over Randy Moss. Moss is Zippo in Oakland.

Javon Walker isn't even in the same league as DD, as he has no class and no class will always fall flat.

Greg Jennings is a ROOKIE.

Donald Driver is an awesome athlete (he still plays young) and always a threat to break one even in double coverage.

[Packnut]

Hi folks, Cleft Crusty here. Sorry I didn't do the post game chat after the Dolphins game, but I was dragged into Dade County general hospital with chest pains and underwent emergency quadruple bypass surgery. I'm feeling better now that I'm out of the hospital and back home, where I have access to my sun chips and Miller Lite. Anyway, I saw that my doppelganger, Cliff Cristl wrote the following:


"Assessing Driver's impact
In hope that nobody will misinterpret the point I'm about to make, let me first expound on all of Donald Driver's virtues. He's a consummate professional. He could play for any team in the NFL and start for most. If you had two or three great players on your roster and every other player played his position as well as Driver, you'd be in the running to win a Super Bowl.

But here's why Driver isn't one of the game's special playmakers; why if Driver is one of your two or three best players, you're not going to win a Super Bowl or probably even make the playoffs.

On the Packers' first offensive play of Sunday's game, he ran a go pattern up the left sideline. It was the first play in coach Mike McCarthy's script. It obviously was designed to get a quick strike. It created a mismatch for the Packers that should have been exploited. The call put Driver in a one-on-one situation with Andre' Goodman, a backup cornerback who was starting for Miami due to injury.

But Driver couldn't get get a step on Goodman and, worse yet, he wound up running up his back for an offensive pass interference penalty.

True, it was only one play. And, later, Driver made an outstanding catch for a 34-yard touchdown, one of the big plays of the game. He finished with 10 receptions for 93 yards, a 9.3 average. He played a key role in the Packers' victory by keeping the chains moving, including on a fourth-and-one reverse where he had to elude a defensive lineman to make the play. But Driver's contribution was mostly as a possession receiver. On his other nine catches, he averaged 6.6 yards.

Basically, that's what Driver is: A possession receiver. And what makes him better than most who fall into that category is that he makes more big plays. Not a bundle, but enough to put him near the top among all the possession receivers in the league.

What he's not is an elite receiver. He's not Randy Moss. He's not Javon Walker.

Driver doesn't have that kind of big-play ability. That's why Pro Football Weekly with the assistance of personnel people around the league ranked him as the 27th best receiver in the game before this season. On some boards around the league, he might be closer to 20.

But that's not good enough if he's your primary playmaker on offense or your main receiving threat unless you're a team with other special players at other positions or a suffocating defense."

---

I have to take issue with the statement "If you had two or three great players on your roster and every other player played his position as well as Driver, you'd be in the running to win a Super Bowl."

This is obviously absurd. If you had every position manned by a guy playing at Driver's level you certainly wouldn't need "two or three great players." Driver is clearly above average for his position (even Cristl gives him the benefit of being the 20th best WR). Many teams play with a number of marginal guys at multiple positions, and make up for it with great play by others. For example, Seattle used the combination of Walter Jones, Hutchinson, and Alexander to dominate football games, despite a lot of very average guys littered throughout their roster. Simply put, if you had 21 guys playing at the same respective level as Driver, with Driver's effort, the Packers would be destroying the competition.

Welcome to the ZIPPER club! I joined back in mid June. Man, that rib-spreader is BRUTAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HarveyWallbangers]

Settle down Harv you're going to have a heartattack I define a playmaker as someone who takes it to the hole and that has been Jennings thus far 2 long ones obviously DD is a big part of that as he draws double teams. He is not from the same pedigree as Javon,T.O,Jerry Rice etc that doesn't mean I don't want him on the team and don't respect him for christs sake.
I'll be at the game probably sideline or stadium view let me buy you a beer.

Sorry but I don't see Jennings' 75 yarder and Driver's 50 yard catch vs. New Orleans being any different athletically. The only difference is that Driver only had to block one man downfield on Jennings catch--while Jennings had to try to block a couple of men downfield on Driver's catch. I also remember Donald doing similar things for a lot longer--see his slant for a TD against Minnesota last year. I like Jennings, but it's not like athletically he trumps Driver. In fact, I'd bet Driver's numbers blew away Jennings' numbers at the combine or campus workout. Personally, I think the two are very similar athletically. Driver just has more experience, so he's mastered the art of beating double teams.

[esoxx]

What he's not is an elite receiver. He's not Randy Moss. He's not Javon Walker.



I think when you boil it down, this was Christl's point. I agree he's not an elite receiver. There's Moss, Steve Smith, Holt, TO...those types, and then there's the next tier of very good receivers. I see Driver in that next tier.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think when you boil it down, this was Christl's point. I agree he's not an elite receiver. There's Moss, Steve Smith, Holt, TO...those types, and then there's the next tier of very good receivers. I see Driver in that next tier.

I don't think he's elite either. I'd classify the top 5 as elite, but he's a legit #1 receiver, and he's not just a possession WR. Saying Driver isn't an elite receiver and not in the same class as Steve Smith is like saying Hawk isn't an elite LB and he's not in the same class as Urlacher. Well, duh! Doesn't mean they aren't very good players and legit, solid starting players.

[Rastak]

What he's not is an elite receiver. He's not Randy Moss. He's not Javon Walker.



I think when you boil it down, this was Christl's point. I agree he's not an elite receiver. There's Moss, Steve Smith, Holt, TO...those types, and then there's the next tier of very good receivers. I see Driver in that next tier.


Is Moss still an elite reciever?

[esoxx]

What he's not is an elite receiver. He's not Randy Moss. He's not Javon Walker.



I think when you boil it down, this was Christl's point. I agree he's not an elite receiver. There's Moss, Steve Smith, Holt, TO...those types, and then there's the next tier of very good receivers. I see Driver in that next tier.


Is Moss still an elite reciever?


Absolutely. You should know this better than anyone Rastak... Randy plays when he feels like it. And he ain't feeling like it this year being on a pathetic Raider team with Andrew Walter at QB. Get this guy on a good team with a good QB and you'd see him come to life. It's sad that he needs that to be motivated, like the huge paycheck and being a professional isn't enough, but that's the case with him.

He's never had a major injury either. Just a matter of bein' interested is all.

[Rastak]

What he's not is an elite receiver. He's not Randy Moss. He's not Javon Walker.



I think when you boil it down, this was Christl's point. I agree he's not an elite receiver. There's Moss, Steve Smith, Holt, TO...those types, and then there's the next tier of very good receivers. I see Driver in that next tier.


Is Moss still an elite reciever?




Absolutely. You should know this better than anyone Rastak... Randy plays when he feels like it. And he ain't feeling like it this year being on a pathetic Raider team with Andrew Walter at QB. Get this guy on a good team with a good QB and you'd see him come to life. It's sad that he needs that to be motivated, like the huge paycheck and being a professional isn't enough, but that's the case with him.

He's never had a major injury either. Just a matter of bein' interested is all.



The fact that he's disinterested drops him far from elite in my eyes. He isn;t even in the top 30 for catches or yards. I don't mind him dogging it once in while when the play is going the other way but when it's coming your way and you just stand there.....I defended him for years but he lost me when he walked off the field in Washington with the game still going on....I wouldn't call a player like that elite....he may have elite speed and skills but the whole package doesn't add up to elite, not anymore.

[Fritz]

This argument can devolve into semantics - is DD an "elite" receiver or is he "just" super, super good? Basically I think we're all saying he's a damn good player and we like him. For Uncle Cliffy to pick out one play from scrimmage - one route DD ran and didn't get open on - and use that to demonstrate why DD is not "elite" is like pointing out one crappy throw that Johnny Unitas made and saying it demonstrates why he's really not that great. Come on.

Hey, Zigs, I wondered if you have a link or info to get me to that article about JWalk crying about not getting the ball enough. I'd love to see it.

[MJZiggy]

I found it googling something else. This isn't the same article that I saw, but basically says the same thing.

Bronco offense frustrates Walker

He says he's not the only receiver who's unhappy

By Ryan Thorburn, Camera Sports Writer
October 17, 2006

ENGLEWOOD — Team wins, star receiver complains.

The Dallas Cowboys and Terrell Owens? Not this time.

29th Street
The Oakland Raiders and Randy Moss? The Silver and Black hasn't won yet.

It was actually Javon Walker — the Broncos' leading receiver with 20 catches for 388 yards (19.4 per) — who decided to express his displeasure with coach Mike Shanahan's offense publicly the morning after Denver's 13-3 victory over the rival Raiders at Invesco Field.

"I know I'm frustrated," Walker said on Monday. "Because I'm used to scoring points, used to having a little bit more opportunities to put us in position to score."

Walker, acquired on draft day from Green Bay for a second-round pick, had four catches for 75 yards against the Raiders. Moss had five receptions for 86 yards (17.6 per).

But take away Walker's 54-yard reception, which set up the game's only touchdown, and Jake Plummer completed only 10 of 17 passes for 48 yards the rest of the evening.

Rush Limbaugh thinks that's too conservative.

"I feel like anytime I can get the ball in my hands something good can happen and I think more points can be scored," Walker continued. "I'm just executing the plays that are called right now."

Shanahan is ultimately the man responsible for calling those plays.

Despite a 4-1 record, the Broncos are averaging only 12.4 points per game. During the 1998 regular season, Shanahan's offense averaged 31.3 points en route to the franchise's second consecutive Super Bowl victory.

Entering Monday night's Chicago-Arizona game, the Broncos were ranked 30th in net passing yards per game (144.8). Plummer's passer rating (63.1) ranked 30th among his peers.

"Javon is as classy a guy as you could ever be around and he wants the ball," Shanahan said when told of Walker's comments. "Rod Smith wants the ball and he handles it in a different way."

Walker had 89 receptions for 1,382 yards (15.5 per) with 12 touchdowns for the Packers in 2004. But after a training camp holdout that caused his relationship with Brett Favre and management to sour, he sustained a torn anterior cruciate ligament in the 2005 opener.

That facilitated the move to Denver for a fresh start and a chance to prove his worth as a No. 1 receiver.

Smith, the franchise's leading receiver the past nine seasons, only has 16 catches for 325 yards so far this year.

"I don't want to go there," Smith said in the postgame locker room when asked about his role in the offense this season.

Walker, who did not speak with reporters on Sunday night, says he isn't the only receiver unhappy with the passing game.

"We all feel the same way and we all talk about it," Walker said. "We'll just come back and practice this week and see where it takes us going into Cleveland."

Shanahan pointed out the fact that Denver only had three offensive possessions in the second half, totaling 15 plays. And Walker dropped a pass that could have moved the chains.

"Javon knows in the back of his mind that he'd better take advantage of those opportunities when the ball hits him in the hands," Shanahan said. "So there's always good and bad in every situation. We've got to work on the little things and keep on trying to get better."

The good news is that Denver's defense has only allowed one touchdown in five games. The last person the players on that side of the ball want to hear from right now is a disgruntled wide receiver.

"I know in practice there are a lot of plays that could lead to big points and things of that nature. It's all about execution," Broncos safety Nick Ferguson said. "Who's to say that those plays were not in and they just didn't get executed properly? ...

"Our coaches, I feel, give us the best opportunity to win games. And sometimes it's all about execution."

http://www.dailycamera.com/bdc/broncos/article/0,1713,BDC_2453_5072155,00.html

[Lurker64]

Good to see that the high mountain air hasn't made JWalk any smarter, or humbler. I kind of liked him better before he had Lasik, he couldn't catch a damn thing but at least he kept his mouth shut about it. I just want to see what happens when Plummer tells Walker to take a paycut.

[Bretsky]

"Javon is as classy a guy as you could ever be around and he wants the ball," Shanahan said when told of Walker's comments. "Rod Smith wants the ball and he handles it in a different way."


DIG

[Partial]

Good to see that the high mountain air hasn't made JWalk any smarter, or humbler. I kind of liked him better before he had Lasik, he couldn't catch a damn thing but at least he kept his mouth shut about it.

:lol:

[Fritz]

"Javon is as classy a guy as you could ever be around and he wants the ball," Shanahan said when told of Walker's comments. "Rod Smith wants the ball and he handles it in a different way."


DIG

Dude, we are on the exact same wavelength here. As soon as I saw this I thought, oh, there's some coachspeak for ya. He's trying to rip JWalk but not rip him at the same time. Yeah, ol' Javon's a classy guy...but Rod Smith wants the ball too and he handles it differently.

As in better. What Shanny's really saying is this: "Well, I don't want to piss off my whiny star receiver, but Rod Smith is an icon in Denver and he's not crying publicly about not getting the ball enough."

So now I'm wondering if maybe I was wrong in thinking TT made a huge mistake in not offering JWalk an extension after he got hurt last year. I thought at the time it would be a peace-making move, but it looks like even if Walker had gotten his extension in Green Bay he'd still be pissing and moaning.