Debunking Mario Williams

[motife]

http://www.nola.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/sports-23/1145686415275360.xml

Times Picayune :

As good as Mario Williams looks, he does have his detractors.

Former Cleveland Browns coach and current NFL Network analyst Butch Davis said the hype for Williams is a bit much.

"I think he's a good player who should go in the top 10, but to say he's a once-in-a-decade talent is over-reaching," Davis said. "He's one of those big, massive, powerful, big-legged, big-butted kids, but not one of those jet-rocket guys coming off the edge.

"He needs to learn a lot of technique and become a real accomplished power rusher. If the Saints do take him, it's overkill because they're already stocked with quality ends."

Others point out that in college Williams was known for taking more than a few plays off, and that Wolfpack coach Chuck Amato more than once had to light a fire under him, also noting that Williams was voted only the fourth-best defensive player in the Atlantic Coast Conference last season.

[Bretsky]

Doesn't surprise me.

Take the best defensive leader in this draft.
Take the best defensive player in college football last year.
Take a fiery and inpirational leader to lead this team back to excellence.


Take AJ Hawk

[Rastak]

Doesn't surprise me.

Take the best defensive leader in this draft.
Take the best defensive player in college football last year.
Take a fiery and inpirational leader to lead this team back to excellence.


Take AJ Hawk


He'd be a great pick Bretsky. On some Vike boards I've heard several people want to trade up to get him, which is stupid as hell....the cost would be way too much to get to #4 I think.....but it's a helluva pick for Green Bay.

[retailguy]

Doesn't surprise me.

Take the best defensive leader in this draft.
Take the best defensive player in college football last year.
Take a fiery and inpirational leader to lead this team back to excellence.


Take AJ Hawk


Bretsky,

You make it sound like this guy is the second coming of Christ.... Name a linebacker that has remained dominant WITHOUT 2 big guys in front of him? Urlacher? Nope. Lewis? Nope. Singletary? Nope. Arrington? Please.

Linebackers by default are too small to make a dramatic difference without a good DL. Plenty of DE's make a difference without a good DL. Plenty of ordinary LB's make a big difference with a good DL.

As crazy as it sounds, we need Ferguson if we stay at 5 (best overall value by most experts opinions), but more importantly, we need to trade down and get more picks. We DO NOT need AJ Hawk at 5. Maybe at 10 or 12, but NOT at 5. If he doesn't last that long, too bad.

[Rivers Rutherford]

I have seen Hawk play in person both his junior and senior year, and not just against Wisconsin. It is hard to argue against Hawks ability to finish a play and consistently be around the ball. You simply can't run away from #47. If you don't believe me look at the fact that he had the fastest short shuttle time at the whole combine. As an outside linebacker it is not as critical to have big bodied defensive linemen in front of you as it does for the man in the middle.

The argument is still futile, in the fact that some team will take Williams ahead of the Packers and they will be disappointed with his production for the next 3 to 4 years until he actually learns and uses proper technique, and stops relying only on his athletic ability. Personally I am thrilled that some other team is going to take him entirely on his measurables.

[retailguy]

Rivers,

I'm not necessarily a Mario fan either. I do think the "risk/return" is better on Williams than Hawk, but I agree, it is likely that someone else takes williams before the packers.

That's why I believe that someone trades up. The top two QB's, one will be "on the board", or Williams AND Ferguson will be there. Somebody will trade up. Of that, I have little doubt. I'll be shocked if the Packers pick at 5, and VERY disappointed as well.

[b bulldog]

If Hawk is the best player on the D sidde of the ball in this draft, why aren't teams thinking about drafting him 1-4 and why do so many people think that he isn't worth being picked at 5. It's funny, someone finds an article that brings up the red flags on Mario and the Hawk fans post it till the cows come home. I guess I find no need to post the negative comments on Hawk. I guess I should start posting them but that would be beating a dead horse since he will be there at 5 and Mario won't. :sad: Three best players in this draft are Fergy,Bush and Mario, enough said!!

[b bulldog]

4.6/40 at the combine? Maybe we should draft Mario to play LB.

[RashanGary]

4.66 at 295 LBS

Nah.....He'll do just fine at the highest rated position other than QB.


I was not a huge Mario fan untill I saw his combine. Lets face it; he wasn't amazing in college.

With that being said, I think its common place for a DE to take some time to develop. Guys like Lawson and Wimbley are as good now as they'll ever be because they have max explosion right now and the edge rush is their only real move. Mario is fast and explosive but it's hard for him to get his weight to turn the corner so he cannot get buy with just an edge rush. The point of this whole paragraph is that it takes time for players to develop effective counter moves. Mario's game is going to depend largely on his ability to become a tactician like Reggie White was. Mario has the physical ability to dominate on the next level. Had Mario played his senior season I think people would have seen a much more dominate player. He's not ready yet but if he puts it together he can be a bigger impact for his team than Reggie Bush.

[b bulldog]

I agree and have stated numerous times that I think it will take him a year and one half to become a true,dominant force. Mario is just a kid. I think he is still 20 years old. He has the frame to carry 310lbs without losing any speed.

[RashanGary]

I think it will take him untill his 3rd year to be dominate. He should be a good player like Kampman from day 1 though.

[b bulldog]

Who do you like better now, Davis or Hawk. I'd go Davis, definitely if we can trade Walker for a 2 and have two second rounders to pick up more D talent.

[RashanGary]

It's too hard for me to call but Davis is a better athlete without a doubt.

[Joemailman]

If it's between Davis or hawk, I have to go Hawk. Tight Ends taken high in the 1st round have a tendency to disappoint. Take the instinctive linebacker over the physical freak.

[RashanGary]

The 5th pick is a nice place to be so both players are great. If I'm a gambling man and I want the bigger upside I take Davis. If I want the sure thing I take Hawk.

If it was me picking I think I'd take Davis when push came to shove.

[retailguy]

The 5th pick is a nice place to be so both players are great. If I'm a gambling man and I want the bigger upside I take Davis. If I want the sure thing I take Hawk.

If it was me picking I think I'd take Davis when push came to shove.

Trade down... No questions about it. Then take whoever falls to you.

[ND72]

actually bulldog, and i know this is all just draft talk, but the Saints have said if they can't get a trade down, they would consider Hawk the best "value" for their team at #2. So he has been talked up that high.

If you've ever seen my typing, you know my love for AJ Hawk. I just want a guy who was a 3 time all big ten, 2 time all american...maybe the best LB coming out of college since Urlacher. He's the most ready to play right now out of almost all of the top 10 rookies. And that is exactly what we need right now, a guy who is the starter on day 1.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Hawk is not the best defensive player in this draft. Neither is Williams.

The best is Mike Huff

[retailguy]

Hawk is not the best defensive player in this draft. Neither is Williams.

The best is Mike Huff

I like huff, and he'd be a GREAT option, if the packers trade down. He's not worth pick #5.

[ND72]

Michael Huff was maybe a 1st round pick before the Rose Bowl, and then after he became a top 15, then combine he became a top 10. he's not the top defensive player by a long shot. He's VERY very good though. i am not trying to put him down, cause i want either Hawk at #5, or Huff somewhere else.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Hawk is not the best defensive player in this draft. Neither is Williams.

The best is Mike Huff

I like huff, and he'd be a GREAT option, if the packers trade down. He's not worth pick #5.

I dont think the 49ers, Raiders or Cardinals will be willing switch picks with the Packers. Regardless, Huff is the most complete d player and deserves to be drafted #5.

[ND72]

Huff is not the most complete defensive player in the draft.

[Joemailman]

Huff is a great player, but it's hard to see the Packers getting him. I don't think TT will take him at #5, and you have to stay in the top 8 to get him. Detroit will probably take him at #9 if he is available.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Huff is not the most complete defensive player in the draft.

Who is then? The only player in this draft who can blitz like Joey Porter AND hit like Roy Williams AND cover like Champ Bailey is Huff.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Huff is a great player, but it's hard to see the Packers getting him. I don't think TT will take him at #5, and you have to stay in the top 8 to get him. Detroit will probably take him at #9 if he is available.

Trust me, Huff will be better than Ed Reed. Deserves to go #5.

[packrulz]

I was listening to ESPN radio & they said the Texans are talking contract numbers with Mario. They might be using Mario to get Bush to lower his demands but who knows? Nothing will suprise me on Saturday.


By Adam Schefter
Special to NFL.com


Adam Schefter's "Around the League" reports and commentaries can be seen regularly on NFL Total Access.

(April 17, 2006) -- For the first time, there is legitimate reason to think that USC running back Reggie Bush is not going to be wind up in Houston, the city that currently holds the No. 1 overall pick.


Reggie Bush could still go to Houston, or another team, at No. 1
This does not come from one source or from one team. This comes from multiple sources, from across the league, without any agenda to push.

The mounting evidence includes this:

As of Monday, the Texans had not had any contract discussions with Bush and his representatives. None.

Yet the Texans have approached North Carolina State defensive end Mario Williams, trying to see if he would be receptive to discussing a deal.

But the evidence goes beyond contracts. When Bush was in Houston, a certain segment of the organization never introduced itself to the running back. This might not be unusual, but if the organization was convinced it was taking a certain player, it should be rolling out the welcome mat with everyone trying to make the player feel as at home as possible. This, according to those who know Bush, did not happen.

Then there is the simple and significant matter of need. Within the past year, the Texans signed running back Domanick Davis to a long-term extension. They also drafted wide receiver Jerome Mathis, the return man who went to the Pro Bowl during his rookie season. The Texans know they have a dependable running back and return man, the two spots Bush fills.

Houston's greater need is at defensive end, and, just as much, at left tackle, a position that could be filled by Virginia's D'Brickashaw Ferguson, who is expected to go in the top four picks.

Yet whether Houston winds up with Williams or Ferguson is unknown. What is known is that Bush no longer is a lock for Houston.

As a person in the Bush camp said Monday, "Do I have a feeling that Reggie is going to Houston? No, I have a feeling that he's not."

[b bulldog]

They have two first round DE's on the roster already and no LB's. Hawk fills the biggets need for the Saints.

[b bulldog]

That being said, bet the Saints STILL PICK MARIO!

[Fritz]

I think the best thing to do would be to trade down and pick up an extra second rounder. If Leinart is sitting there at #5, somebody ought to be licking their chops to move up, and if TT can drop down only two or three spots and pick up an extra high second rounder, of if he drops further and gets a windfall of picks, it'd be a good move.

Too much is made of that first round pick. Way too much. It's understandable - the media doesn't really cover the players who will be drafted much past the second, maybe third round. So all the focus is on that first round bunch. But Driver was a seventh rounder, as was Tauscher, Rivera was a sixth, Favre was had for a mid-first (not even a top ten pick) and was originally drafted in the second, Clifton was a second, Kampman a fifth, and so on. If TT can stock up on picks it would be good for the franchise. It won't give fans a big name to drool over, but in two to three years it will pay off for this team.

[Bretsky]

Huff is a great player, but it's hard to see the Packers getting him. I don't think TT will take him at #5, and you have to stay in the top 8 to get him. Detroit will probably take him at #9 if he is available.

Trust me, Huff will be better than Ed Reed. Deserves to go #5.


You've seen Huff play 2 times; better than Ed Reed ?? Nobody has even mentioned selecting Huff ahead of Green Bay. Better than Ed Reed...trust me ?? You must be smoking some strong stuff lately.

Cheers,
B

[b bulldog]

Reed is a stud, period.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

You've seen Huff play 2 times; better than Ed Reed ?? Nobody has even mentioned selecting Huff ahead of Green Bay. Better than Ed Reed...trust me ?? You must be smoking some strong stuff lately.

Cheers,
B

2 games, plus Huff's highlight clip, plus stuff from ESPN. Watching the clip, you'll notice that Huff hits like a missile and make plays like Deion Sanders. Reed doesnt hit/tackle as hard or as good as Huff. Reed is also not as fast. Reed was drafted late in the 1st rd when he came out; Huff is being projected as a top 10 pick. That, and Huff's talent speaks volume.

You heard it here first, Huff will be better.

[Bretsky]

You've seen Huff play 2 times; better than Ed Reed ?? Nobody has even mentioned selecting Huff ahead of Green Bay. Better than Ed Reed...trust me ?? You must be smoking some strong stuff lately.

Cheers,
B

2 games, plus Huff's highlight clip, plus stuff from ESPN. Watching the clip, you'll notice that Huff hits like a missile and make plays like Deion Sanders. Reed doesnt hit/tackle as hard or as good as Huff. Reed is also not as fast. Reed was drafted late in the 1st rd when he came out; Huff is being projected as a top 10 pick. That, and Huff's talent speaks volume.

You heard it here first, Huff will be better.


You are serious ? ESPN could put a great highlight clip together for a lot of average players that would make guys that don't get drafted look like first rounders.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

You are serious ? ESPN could put a great highlight clip together for a lot of average players that would make guys that don't get drafted look like first rounders.

Time will tell (regarding Huff), but there is a 99.9% chance time will prove me right. :D

[ND72]

any player can look like a monster because of ESPN's clips. when i was being recruited, coach told me he'd make the tape for me so it's done right. I looked like a god on the field because of how he set the film up. Clips are going to be their best 5 or 6 plays from the year.

[Tarlam!]

I looked like a god on the field because of how he set the film up.

And, did it get you recruited?

[Scott Campbell]

Time will tell (regarding Huff), but there is a 99.9% chance time will prove me right. :D


What are the odds that you're right about the Polar Bear?

That's a great nickname for him by the way.

[Bretsky]

I looked like a god on the field because of how he set the film up.

And, did it get you recruited?

If memory serves me right, ND played OL at Winona State in college

[Partial]

i'd say Huff is gonna be an above average safety but he hits too high to be a polamalu and I have a hunch he's overrated like most of the high texas picks over the years (except for VY)

[Deputy Nutz]

I love it how excited Bulldog gets when somebody puts down Maria Williams, and hypes Hawk! You gotta love his "Big Blue" Pride.

The funny thing about the combine, is that there is almost no football being played, maybe a throwing drill, a catching drill, but no one is taking on a left tackle or blitzing between a guard and a tackle. Mario Williams like all the athletes that performed at the combine specifically trained to do well in those drills. Does Mario really run a 4.6 forty on the field? Does he really use the strength that he used at the combine on the field? The fact is he was benched for a game because of lack of consistent effort. While on C-E a gave a break down of William's stats per game, and the facts were that he dominated against inferior competition.

I find the numbers at the combine valuable only when the effort put out by a player at the combine proves their play on the field. What Williams did at the combine has you scratching your head wondering why he didn't have 20 sacks and 35 tackles for a loss.

The Packers need a player at #5, they simply cannot afford a bust, regardless of potential.

[b bulldog]

Good points and as I've posted before, Mario does have some red flags. That being said, in terms of times ect, the only ones that matter are at the combine where all these athletes are on the same surface. We all can spin about prodays but where they all performed(not USC) on the same surface, those are the legit results and Hawk's 40 time was disappointing. He is a good player just not an elite prospect but in the end, the good player could be way better than the elite prospect. I think Mario,Fergy and Bush are the THREE STUDS IN THIS DRAFT AND I AM FAR FROM BEING THE ONLY ONE WHO THIMKS SO. 've yet to read where any local beat writer is overly enthused at the prospect of picking Hawk at 5. These are all just opinions but there is a reason why Mario will more than likely be off the board by 5 while Hawk will still be there.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Time will tell (regarding Huff), but there is a 99.9% chance time will prove me right. :D


What are the odds that you're right about the Polar Bear?

That's a great nickname for him by the way.

Hey, I saw what was about to come when I called for Thompson's head two months into his tenture last year (although i did not admit it, out of pride, predicting a 14-2 season because I believed in Mike Sherman). I'm starting to look like a genius now.

[b bulldog]

One more thing Nutz, why aren't you clamoring for Young when on paper,film and leadership, Young has everyone beat hands down. He went into the shoe and beat the eyes along with singlehandedly beating SC. He was the most dominant player in college football last season. I did say college ball and that is the reason why some players are thought to be an even better player/prospect at the next level because the pro game is vastly different than college. One thing that helps Hawk is that he is a SR, Mario is only 20 years old. I do thinkl Hawk will have the most impact as a rookie of the top 8 picks but I'm betting by the halfway point of their second season, Mario will be the Superstar.

[RashanGary]

Mario is going to need 2 full seasons before he's even considered a superstar IMO. If he could not dominate against average Tackles in college he'll get eaten alive against Tauscher and the NFL OT's.

[Charles Woodson]

As crazy as it sounds, we need Ferguson if we stay at 5 (best overall value by most experts opinions), but more importantly, we need to trade down and get more picks. We DO NOT need AJ Hawk at 5. Maybe at 10 or 12, but NOT at 5. If he doesn't last that long, too bad.


Why Ferguson. This is what i dont get with everyone. Look yes. Ferguson would be great, but we dont need him. We have good tackles in clifton and Tausher. Especially if we could get Davin Joesph in the 2nd that would make an instant impack. We need Hawk. My favorite situation would be trading Walker and ethier a 2 or 3 for Broncos #15. Yes i know it might be not enough and something like that but if we get the 15, then we could get a reciver to replace Walker like Chad Jackson.

[Deputy Nutz]

One more thing Nutz, why aren't you clamoring for Young when on paper,film and leadership, Young has everyone beat hands down. He went into the shoe and beat the eyes along with singlehandedly beating SC. He was the most dominant player in college football last season. I did say college ball and that is the reason why some players are thought to be an even better player/prospect at the next level because the pro game is vastly different than college. One thing that helps Hawk is that he is a SR, Mario is only 20 years old. I do thinkl Hawk will have the most impact as a rookie of the top 8 picks but I'm betting by the halfway point of their second season, Mario will be the Superstar.

You take my logic and bash me over the head with it. I have been critical of Young, but mostly in the posibility of him becoming a Packer. I think if I was an Oakland Raider fan I would be foaming at the mouth to get this guy. Next to Reggie Bush I think Young is the most gifted athlete in this draft. Unfortunately his wonderlic scores do put me off a little bit, and I would have tended to ignore them if say he played in the USC offense, or even Michigan's offense. The fact is, Texas realized they had a very athletically gifted kid at quarterback and adjusted their system for him to succeed. It was a brilliant move, but not one that was going to help Young adjust to the NFL.

[b bulldog]

I wouldn't take him at the one spot but one thing teams should keep in mind when they draft these hybrid QB's is that they need to develop an O that the QB can play in and be comfortable with rather than picking a running QB and saying it's the westcoast and you will have to adapt to it. Looks like the Falcons are going to try to work with Vick on this and not be so stubborn. It's best for both the player and the team in the long run.

[Deputy Nutz]

Exactly.

I thought that the Vikings let Culpepper run it perfect, that is until his knee literally blew up into a million pieces.

[swede]

I think the best thing to do would be to trade down and pick up an extra second rounder. If Leinart is sitting there at #5, somebody ought to be licking their chops to move up, and if TT can drop down only two or three spots and pick up an extra high second rounder, of if he drops further and gets a windfall of picks, it'd be a good move.

Too much is made of that first round pick. Way too much. It's understandable - the media doesn't really cover the players who will be drafted much past the second, maybe third round. So all the focus is on that first round bunch. But Driver was a seventh rounder, as was Tauscher, Rivera was a sixth, Favre was had for a mid-first (not even a top ten pick) and was originally drafted in the second, Clifton was a second, Kampman a fifth, and so on. If TT can stock up on picks it would be good for the franchise. It won't give fans a big name to drool over, but in two to three years it will pay off for this team.

Fritz you make excellent points.

I tease the venerable Ted Thompson for being a polar bear--God bless our dear Tank for his creativity--but I certainly do respect the cold and calculating way he plays every issue.

If I write the script we pick AJ HAwk at #5. But TT may indeed piss everybody off and do exactly as you suggest and continually trade down.

Some smart aleck many many threads ago suggested that TT wouldn't be happy until he had every 7th round pick in the draft. :lol:

I don't think it will be that bad.

[Joemailman]

I think the best thing to do would be to trade down and pick up an extra second rounder. If Leinart is sitting there at #5, somebody ought to be licking their chops to move up, and if TT can drop down only two or three spots and pick up an extra high second rounder, of if he drops further and gets a windfall of picks, it'd be a good move.

Too much is made of that first round pick. Way too much. It's understandable - the media doesn't really cover the players who will be drafted much past the second, maybe third round. So all the focus is on that first round bunch. But Driver was a seventh rounder, as was Tauscher, Rivera was a sixth, Favre was had for a mid-first (not even a top ten pick) and was originally drafted in the second, Clifton was a second, Kampman a fifth, and so on. If TT can stock up on picks it would be good for the franchise. It won't give fans a big name to drool over, but in two to three years it will pay off for this team.

Fritz you make excellent points.

I tease the venerable Ted Thompson for being a polar bear--God bless our dear Tank for his creativity--but I certainly do respect the cold and calculating way he plays every issue.

If I write the script we pick AJ HAwk at #5. But TT may indeed piss everybody off and do exactly as you suggest and continually trade down.

Some smart aleck many many threads ago suggested that TT wouldn't be happy until he had every 7th round pick in the draft. :lol:

I don't think it will be that bad.


Last year, TT had 3 picks in the first 2 rounds, and kept them all. It wasn't until the 3rd round that he started to trade down. I expect something similar this year, unless someone looking to draft Young or Leinart makes him a great offer. If he gets a 2nd round pick for Walker, that pick could become trade bait.

[Partial]

The depth is really kick ass in the first three rounds though and by moving down in the second he could get 4 quality players instead of 3.

I suspect he'll move down a lil' bit in the second. I hope he makes a deal for Javon for a second also. And favre too while we're at it.