Five worst (Overpaid and overrated) FA signings

[KYPack]

Silverstein had this on JSO. He's getting better, this ain't a half bad article.

1. Leonard Davis, OT, Dallas Cowboys

There's a reason the Arizona Cardinals, despite having constant offensive line problems, let Davis go. But Jones overlooked the eight sacks Davis gave up last year and paid him $18.75 million in guaranteed money.

2. Derrick Dockery, G, Buffalo Bills

OK, Dockery isn't a stiff, but paying him the same money Minnesota paid Steve Hutchinson the year before (seven years, $49 million) . . . Pro Bowls at the time they signed: Hutchinson, 3; Dockery, 0.

3. Bobby Wade, WR, Minnesota Vikings

The Chicago Bears thought so much of Wade that they cut him after the 2004 season and Tennessee got two mediocre years out of him. The Titans were offering about $1 million, but Minnesota gave him $9 million over three years, including $4 million to sign.

4. Kevin Carter, DE, Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Most teams wanted him as a backup, but Tampa Bay managed to outbid itself by giving him $5 million this year, including $2 million in bonuses.

5. Dewayne White, DE, Detroit Lions

GM Matt Millen traded a perfectly good pass rusher (James Hall) to St. Louis for a fifth-round pick and then signed White to a five-year, $29 million deal that includes $12 million in bonuses. Never mind that White, mostly a backup four years in Tampa Bay, had two sacks in the eight games he started last year.


Millen needs to be fired before he hurts himself. Derrick Dockery got Hutch money? That could be bad, even Hutch couldn't earn Hutch money! What if TT did any of these deals?

[Fritz]

"Millen needs to be fired before he hurts himself. Derrick Dockery got Hutch money? That could be bad, even Hutch couldn't earn Hutch money! What if TT did any of these deals?"

good points KY except the first. We want Matt Millen to stay. If you're a Packer fan - heck, if your anything but a Lions' fan - you want him to stay.

His current project is to sign as many backups from the St. Louis and Tampa Bay rosters as possible, and make them starters in Detroit: Travis Fischer, Sean Mcdonough, DeWayne White, Mike Furrey.

Go Matt, Go!

[KYPack]

"Millen needs to be fired before he hurts himself. Derrick Dockery got Hutch money? That could be bad, even Hutch couldn't earn Hutch money! What if TT did any of these deals?"

good points KY except the first. We want Matt Millen to stay. If you're a Packer fan - heck, if your anything but a Lions' fan - you want him to stay.

His current project is to sign as many backups from the St. Louis and Tampa Bay rosters as possible, and make them starters in Detroit: Travis Fischer, Sean Mcdonough, DeWayne White, Mike Furrey.

Go Matt, Go!

Yer right, Fritz.

I retract my statement.

Millen for the next millenium!

[Scott Campbell]

How did that Viking TE not make this list?

[Joemailman]

Matt Millen needs to be fired before a Lions fan does a lot more than hurt him.

[Guiness]

Did Dockerty really get that kind of money??? I wonder how much of it is guaranteed?

Just goes to show how last year's mega-deal is run of the mill a short time later.

I distinctly remember Ricky Henderson getting $9 million for 3 years, and I was absolutely stunned. What was that, 1989?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I say we bump all Randy Moss threads to Page 2.
:D

I'm so friggin' tired of the Moss talk.

[GBRulz]

I say we bump all Randy Moss threads to Page 2.
:D

I'm so friggin' tired of the Moss talk.

I agree. It wouldn't be so bad if a new topic wasn't created for each article or opinion. I can't keep up with all the threads now!

[GBRulz]

Note: Ahman Green was NOT on this list :whist:

[MJZiggy]

I say we bump all Randy Moss threads to Page 2.
:D

I'm so friggin' tired of the Moss talk.

I agree. It wouldn't be so bad if a new topic wasn't created for each article or opinion. I can't keep up with all the threads now!

What if we sticky ONE Moss thread and put all the rumors and updates there?

[retailguy]

Note: Ahman Green was NOT on this list :whist:

Careful.... They'll brand you as a negative Thompson hater... OBVIOUSLY it was a bad, bad, deal.

Nevermind that he came back from a career ending injury, and has NEVER reported out of shape.

But, those things, can't stop the belief that he's "over the hill" even though those things were pointed to in NOVEMBER.

Guess he went "over the hill" at Christmas.

[pbmax]

Millen needs to be fired before he hurts himself. Derrick Dockery got Hutch money? That could be bad, even Hutch couldn't earn Hutch money! What if TT did any of these deals?
The word on the street, the anonoymous neighbor told me, is that Marinelli has been given quite a bit of say on building his roster this year. So he and Martz are driving the shopping cart.

He dumped the DE and signed the Tampa dude because of scheme considerations. He will probably find out that scheme and no talent yield the same results as talent and no scheme.

[pbmax]

Better one year early than one year late. Especially for a four year deal. Green or no Green, team was going to struggle making the playoffs.



Note: Ahman Green was NOT on this list :whist:

Careful.... They'll brand you as a negative Thompson hater... OBVIOUSLY it was a bad, bad, deal.

Nevermind that he came back from a career ending injury, and has NEVER reported out of shape.

But, those things, can't stop the belief that he's "over the hill" even though those things were pointed to in NOVEMBER.

Guess he went "over the hill" at Christmas.

[GBRulz]

I say we bump all Randy Moss threads to Page 2.
:D

I'm so friggin' tired of the Moss talk.

I agree. It wouldn't be so bad if a new topic wasn't created for each article or opinion. I can't keep up with all the threads now!

What if we sticky ONE Moss thread and put all the rumors and updates there?

That would have been a good idea about a week ago!

[KYPack]

It's tough to promote "thread management".

When the topic is hot, lot's of people start new ones.

It's annoyng, but at least it's activity.

[woodbuck27]

Note: Ahman Green was NOT on this list :whist:

Careful.... They'll brand you as a negative Thompson hater... OBVIOUSLY it was a bad, bad, deal.

Nevermind that he came back from a career ending injury, and has NEVER reported out of shape.

But, those things, can't stop the belief that he's "over the hill" even though those things were pointed to in NOVEMBER.

Guess he went "over the hill" at Christmas.

No. . .no no.

We read it. TT and M3 very much wanted Ahman back.

For another one year contract.

[BooHoo]

It's tough to promote "thread management".

When the topic is hot, lot's of people start new ones.

It's annoyng, but at least it's activity.

Hot news, sells. We need something this time of year to read.

[GBRulz]

It's tough to promote "thread management".

When the topic is hot, lot's of people start new ones.

It's annoyng, but at least it's activity.

Hot news, sells. We need something this time of year to read.

Yes, one can only read so many mock drafts! Well, ok some of you can't get enough :wink:

[gureski]

Note: Ahman Green was NOT on this list :whist:

Careful.... They'll brand you as a negative Thompson hater... OBVIOUSLY it was a bad, bad, deal.

Nevermind that he came back from a career ending injury, and has NEVER reported out of shape.

But, those things, can't stop the belief that he's "over the hill" even though those things were pointed to in NOVEMBER.

Guess he went "over the hill" at Christmas.

Retailguy,

V.Shiancoe isn't on the list either and he's quite possibly the most mind-boggling signing that has taken place. This isn't exactly THE universally recognized list of most ridiculous contracts. It's one person's opinion.

Can we agree on some base facts?

You have dug in and hunkered down on the A.Green issue so deeply that it's hard to find anything that we can see eye-to-eye on to use as the starting point to a rational debate. It's leaking into every post you make because you can't come to an understanding with many others on Green. When I tried to engage you on the topic in the past you moved the debate away from the real-life/common sense setting into a more academic economic definition of 'overpaid' debate. I think I can break this impasse. I'm interested in having a debate with you on the Green issue but first we have to agree to certain facts as a starting point.

Can we agree to admit the following as general facts that relate to all players and organizations? (not Green and the Packers specifically)

1. Based on past NFL history and statistics, RB's become 'over-the-hill' once they reach the age of 30?

2. Not all starting calibur RB's hit a big decline at age 30 but the statistics show an overwhelming number do see a drastic drop in productivity and an increase in injury. It's not impossible for a starting calibur RB to be successful once they reach the age of 30 but it's an exception to the rule when it happens.

3. Injury history is one of the primary factors looked at when signing players and assessing their value. It's normally directly related to compensation.

4. Age is one of the primary factors looked at when signing players and assessing their value.

5. Current and past performance is a primary factor looked at when signing players and assessing their value.

6. Each team in the NFL MUST stay under the salary cap each year.

7. Contracts and salaries do not occur in a bubble. That is to say that others are affected by new contracts and new salaries. There is a ripple effect that happens every time an organization signs a player. Every new contract and every new salary has an effect on the balance of current and future contracts and current and future salaries on the team. Some ripples are big and others are small but they are there just the same and each team can cause ripples on other teams roster's based on the contracts and salaries they hand out.

Can we agree that these 7 points above are true and apply to all organizations and players? I'm just looking for a base that we can agree upon prior to getting into the specifics of A.Green and the Packers. The items listed above seem to be very basic things that every team and player face. The items listed above can be proven using basic NFL statistics and team/player history. I don't think there is anything I wrote that is controversial. It's very basic.

Are there any of the 7 items I list that you disagree with?

[Scott Campbell]

He will accept your terms on one condition - you proclaim your undying love for Mike Sherman.

:)

[mngolf19]

Note: Ahman Green was NOT on this list :whist:

Careful.... They'll brand you as a negative Thompson hater... OBVIOUSLY it was a bad, bad, deal.

Nevermind that he came back from a career ending injury, and has NEVER reported out of shape.

But, those things, can't stop the belief that he's "over the hill" even though those things were pointed to in NOVEMBER.

Guess he went "over the hill" at Christmas.

Retailguy,

V.Shiancoe isn't on the list either and he's quite possibly the most mind-boggling signing that has taken place. This isn't exactly THE universally recognized list of most ridiculous contracts. It's one person's opinion.



The above is also one person's opinion.

[gureski]

Note: Ahman Green was NOT on this list :whist:

Careful.... They'll brand you as a negative Thompson hater... OBVIOUSLY it was a bad, bad, deal.

Nevermind that he came back from a career ending injury, and has NEVER reported out of shape.

But, those things, can't stop the belief that he's "over the hill" even though those things were pointed to in NOVEMBER.

Guess he went "over the hill" at Christmas.

Retailguy,

V.Shiancoe isn't on the list either and he's quite possibly the most mind-boggling signing that has taken place. This isn't exactly THE universally recognized list of most ridiculous contracts. It's one person's opinion.



The above is also one person's opinion.

I'm sorry. Maybe my paitence is wearing thin right now but what is the point of your post?

Is the point of your post to state that the original list in the thread IS the Universally recognized list of most ridiculous contracts?

I said Shiancoe is 'quite possibly' the most mindboggling signing of the off-season. I said the list that was part of the original post is one person's opinion of the Top 5. Both of those are facts. It IS possible that Shiancoe's deal was the most mindboggilng deal of this year's free agency. It's possible and that's all I said. Are you disputing that fact?

It's fact that the list we were discussing was one person's opinion and not representive of Universal opinion. Do you dispute that fact?

If I didn't say anything that wasnt' factually based then why post and say it's only my opinion?

Again, maybe my patience is wearing thin but I'm not in the mood for the 'that's just your opinion' game today. There are some things that are fact and can be proven. There are things that are true that we can agree upon. Every statement isn't merely an opinion. 2 plus 2 equals 4. You can check it. It's true.

Find someone else to put in their place because my house is in order and I'm not in the mood to play today.

[retailguy]

Retailguy,

V.Shiancoe isn't on the list either and he's quite possibly the most mind-boggling signing that has taken place. This isn't exactly THE universally recognized list of most ridiculous contracts. It's one person's opinion.



The above is also one person's opinion.

Touche' MN. Touche'. This has been my gripe for weeks. His/other info are FACTS, and all I've got are "NEGATIVE OPINIONS". Can't see the double standard..., yet preaches that I can't see the double standard. Kind of funny, really.

Debate and discussion are IMPOSSIBLE in this framework.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Actually, I find Bobby Wade's signing the most mind-boggling, but that's just my opinion. With Shiancoe they took a chance on a young guy, like Thompson did with Frank Walker, so it may work out--even though I THINK they paid too much for him.

[retailguy]

Find someone else to put in their place because my house is in order and I'm not in the mood to play today.


And you tell me I'm negative and hard to get along with? :shock:

Dude, look in the mirror.

[gureski]

Retailguy,

V.Shiancoe isn't on the list either and he's quite possibly the most mind-boggling signing that has taken place. This isn't exactly THE universally recognized list of most ridiculous contracts. It's one person's opinion.



The above is also one person's opinion.

Touche' MN. Touche'. This has been my gripe for weeks. His/other info are FACTS, and all I've got are "NEGATIVE OPINIONS". Can't see the double standard..., yet preaches that I can't see the double standard. Kind of funny, really.

Debate and discussion are IMPOSSIBLE in this framework.

Better start re-reading because the individual you are patting on the back was incorrect in their statement. As I pointed out, the items I listed above were factual. It IS factually possible that Shiancoe's deal was the most mindboggling deal of the off-season. It IS FACTUAL for me to say that the list that started this thread is one person's opinion.

You can delight in having someone take a shot at me but that doesn't change the fact that I was correct in what I said.

What I'd like to know is whether you can engage on this debate or if you're set on crying that everyone is mistreating you? I'm making an honest effort to bridge this gap with you and have a fair conversation. If all you're interested in is being a victim then say so and I'll spend my time and effort in places where it's better served.

[retailguy]

Actually, I find Bobby Wade's signing the most mind-boggling, but that's just my opinion. With Shiancoe they took a chance on a young guy, like Thompson did with Frank Walker, so it may work out--even though I THINK they paid too much for him.

Signing free agents is really the same thing as drafting, it's all about leveraged risk. Does that player fit the system? Does that player fit the system/requirements better than the other available players? What's the liklihood that it'll work out?

Can we handle the contract? If we can't, what's the downside? If we can, what's the downside?

With a free agent, you've got a bit more data in some cases to answer the questions, that's one reason the contracts are higher - The commodity is more proven in the environment.

This sums it up for me on Green. What's the downside, can we handle it, and if we can't, what's the backup plan? The backup plan seems to be missing. Maybe it'll appear in the future, but maybe IT WON'T.

It won't worries me. A Lot.

[retailguy]

Better start re-reading because the individual you are patting on the back was incorrect in their statement. As I pointed out,

It would seem that this is an opinion as well.... Guerski just because you believe it to be a "fact" doesn't mean it is one.

Patler astutely pointed out in another thread that "EVERYTHING" regarding free agency is subject to future debate... this would include YOUR points as well as mine.

Move on to someone else. When you compared Ahman Green's value to a Taco, you lost me. My resistence to debate you has nothing to do with playing the "victim". It has everything to do with your absolute insistence that the only way is YOUR way.

That's not a debate. That's arguing with a fence post. I'll pass. Thanks.

[Fritz]

Millen needs to be fired before he hurts himself. Derrick Dockery got Hutch money? That could be bad, even Hutch couldn't earn Hutch money! What if TT did any of these deals?
The word on the street, the anonoymous neighbor told me, is that Marinelli has been given quite a bit of say on building his roster this year. So he and Martz are driving the shopping cart.

He dumped the DE and signed the Tampa dude because of scheme considerations. He will probably find out that scheme and no talent yield the same results as talent and no scheme.

One of the Detroit papers had an article on Marinelli's new personnel influence. It's clear that Marinelli has a really strong Jones for try-hard marine guys, which is fine except it seems to drive him to players who are dedicated but not necessarily above-average in talent. I think that Matt Millen's new "plan" - ah, hell, let's see if Marinelli's tough-guy approach might work - will, as you suggest, fall short. If they follow through and draft Joe Thomas instead of Calvin Johnson, then we know teh Lions are surely, still and again, doomed.

As for the Ahman Green part of the debate, no, he's not on the list of worst five, and he's probably not, but that doesn't make it a smart move on the Texans' part. Guess we'll know better after the end of the 08 season.

[gureski]

Actually, I find Bobby Wade's signing the most mind-boggling, but that's just my opinion. With Shiancoe they took a chance on a young guy, like Thompson did with Frank Walker, so it may work out--even though I THINK they paid too much for him.

Signing free agents is really the same thing as drafting, it's all about leveraged risk. Does that player fit the system? Does that player fit the system/requirements better than the other available players? What's the liklihood that it'll work out?

Can we handle the contract? If we can't, what's the downside? If we can, what's the downside?

With a free agent, you've got a bit more data in some cases to answer the questions, that's one reason the contracts are higher - The commodity is more proven in the environment.

This sums it up for me on Green. What's the downside, can we handle it, and if we can't, what's the backup plan? The backup plan seems to be missing. Maybe it'll appear in the future, but maybe IT WON'T.

It won't worries me. A Lot.

Funny how it seems you can find some things that you are willing to agree to with regards to free agency when it pleases you? If you can make these statements then why can't you simply sit down with me and come to a mutual agreement on a set of points that we both agree upon?

[Scott Campbell]

Retailguy,

V.Shiancoe isn't on the list either and he's quite possibly the most mind-boggling signing that has taken place. This isn't exactly THE universally recognized list of most ridiculous contracts. It's one person's opinion.



The above is also one person's opinion.

Touche' MN. Touche'. This has been my gripe for weeks. His/other info are FACTS.........................


Hey - Community College Professor. He didn't state it as a fact. He uses the phrase "quite possibly the most mind-boggling signing that has taken place".

My adult literacy teacher tells me that this is put forth as an opinion.

Shermtard.

[gureski]

Better start re-reading because the individual you are patting on the back was incorrect in their statement. As I pointed out,

It would seem that this is an opinion as well.... Guerski just because you believe it to be a "fact" doesn't mean it is one.

Patler astutely pointed out in another thread that "EVERYTHING" regarding free agency is subject to future debate... this would include YOUR points as well as mine.

Move on to someone else. When you compared Ahman Green's value to a Taco, you lost me. My resistence to debate you has nothing to do with playing the "victim". It has everything to do with your absolute insistence that the only way is YOUR way.

That's not a debate. That's arguing with a fence post. I'll pass. Thanks.

The missing factor you left out is that I can PROVE what I'm saying. Facts are something concrete that you can prove. 2 plus 2 equals 4. It can be proven.

The statements I made earlier are factual and can be proven. Being that most everything is 'possible', Shiancoe's deal fits the category I placed it in with the key preface being the word "POSSIBLE".

The names that started this thread were merely one person's opinion and didn't reflect a universally accepted list of the most overpaid free agents. Evidence of that is the fact that I, and others, disagree with the list.

Both statements I made can be proven. That's what a fact is.

Now, I don't agree with you but that doesnt' mean we can't debate something and find common ground in which to discuss and understand each other.

The Taco example was merely to try to give you a real life example of how someone overpaying for a product doesn't immediately make that product worth the amount it was bought at. A 99 cent taco is a 99 cent taco whether you pay $20.00 for it or 99 cents. The fact that a single person is willing to overpay for a product does not mean that the value of that product has changed.

I also wanted to show you how someone refusing to overpay for something prior to another person stepping in and overpaying for something doesn't make the person who didn't overpay an idiot.

Both of those examples were not meant to outright prove Green was overpaid. They were merely removing two pieces of your argument from the overall debate.

You turned the debate into the academic economic definition of 'Overpaid' so that you didn't have to grant me the point I was making. A reasonable person would acknowledge points that are valid, not try to find technicalities in the academic way it's portrayed to dismiss the concept. What that told me is that you don't want an honest debate on this issue.

I tried to come to an agreement of facts with you and you are now walking away from that. YOu can say it's because I'm not worthy of debate but realize that once you do that you're removing yourself from that 'victim' club you recently placed yourself in and placing yourself into your own 'mob' club. In order for you to be a true victim of the 'mob mentality' then you'd have to be surrounded by people who aren't interested in sitting down with you and having a fair discussion. I'm willing to do that. You're not. Who has the 'mob mentality' here after all?

And I'll say one more thing.....I've seen the clique type atmosphere in life. I know what it is. Maybe that's why it bothered me that you felt you were a target of something like that. Maybe that's why I tried to reach out and create an open and fair dialogue so that you could feel as if you got a fair shake in expressing your thoughts. If you go back to the Griffith post you'll see that I said some negativity didn't bother me. It was being negative just to do it, without a point that bothered me. Having an edge in your posting style is a a good thing. It's passion. Disrespecting others just to do it and just flaming people and going negative in that fashion for no good reason is NOT productive. That's my stance. If you're going to take shots at me then get it right and hit me where I stand, not where you think I am.