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the_idle_threat
03-18-2007, 05:40 AM
Team breaks new ground with surface (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=578860)

Lambeau Field getting makeover

By BOB McGINN
bmcginn@journalsentinel.com
Posted: March 17, 2007

Green Bay - The Green Bay Packers are installing a hybrid surface at Lambeau Field that has met with decidedly mixed reviews in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and might not be a panacea in the National Football League's most historic stadium.

By early May, the laborious task of weaving DD GrassMaster into Lambeau Field will have been completed at a cost of between $2.5 million and $3 million, according to chairman of the board Bob Harlan.

But it won't be until late in the season before the Packers know for sure if the Dutch-developed system blending a 100% natural grass field with 3% synthetic reinforcement will perform better than the Kentucky bluegrass surfaces in Lambeau did for the last 40 years.

"We've done a lot of research on it," general manager Ted Thompson said. "All the people that I've talked to said it was absolutely the best option for us."

Pittsburgh switched from natural grass to DD GrassMaster at Heinz Field in 2003, then had to resurface again with DD GrassMaster in '05.

Last month, the NFL Players Association released a survey conducted from September to November in which 1,511 players participated. Heinz Field was rated the worst of the 18 grass fields in the league.

Philadelphia, which also has had problems with DD GrassMaster at Lincoln Financial Field, ranked as sixth worst.

Although unaware of the results, both Harlan and Thompson said the Packers should fare better because they will use the field just 11 times (10 games, one intra-squad scrimmage) each year, barring playoffs.

In 2006, Heinz Field also was used for seven University of Pittsburgh games, five high school championship games and an occasional concert. The "Linc" in Philly hosted four Temple University games, a few concerts and one soccer exhibition game.

In Europe, such teams as Real Madrid in Spain and Dunfermline in Scotland either resurfaced existing DD GrassMaster or went back to natural grass.

"At Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, and certainly overseas, they played two or three times as many games as we're going to play," Thompson said. "But we're a lot farther north than those guys, too. It will be interesting."

The Packers found themselves during recent regular seasons having to re-sod between the hash marks once if not twice. Generally, they spent about $100,000 on a complete re-sodding in the spring and then another $40,000 to $50,000 for the in-season re-soddings.

In the survey, Lambeau Field was rated as the fifth-worst grass field. According to Harlan, the Packers always could go back to natural grass if DD GrassMaster doesn't pass muster.

The key to the Packers' decision to install DD GrassMaster was how the surface held up on their Clarke Hinkle practice field in the summers of 2005 and '06. Although by mid- to late August the field started to wear out from the pounding, some players raved about the surface and hoped it would be put down in Lambeau Field.

"It's way better," defensive end Aaron Kampman said in August 2005. "Love it. It doesn't rip up. It doesn't slip."

The grass fields in Green Bay had a high concentration of clay. In rainy weather, that clay stymied rapid drainage.

"One of the things that convinced Ted is after a heavy, heavy rainstorm the people from the grounds crew stood on Hinkle and then stood on Lambeau," Harlan said. "He said their feet were sinking in Lambeau and Hinkle was dry. Ted really based it on the fact we had it on Hinkle and everybody loved it."

Even though 52.1% of the Steelers rated their own Heinz Field surface as poor, Pittsburgh owner Dan Rooney was undaunted.

"You're looking for beauty rather than practicality," Rooney told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette last month. "We have the best field as far as traction that you can have. You didn't see anybody slip, or very few slips during the year."

Beset by natural grass woes at Gillette Stadium, the New England Patriots installed FieldTurf over the span of two weeks in November. It's an option that the Steelers, and presumably the Packers, aren't interested in pursuing.

"We could do that but we'd lose something," Rooney said. "We would lose the basic thing of playing on regular grass, having a good, safe field."

The Packers have FieldTurf on their Ray Nitschke practice field. A problem that has arisen is that FieldTurf becomes almost unbearable for players on hot days.

Just the fact the Packers won't be playing on an entirely grass field in Lambeau Field for the first time will be enough of a break from tradition.

***********************************

http://www.shalomhairextensions.com/products/weave2.jpghttp://www.shalomhairextensions.com/products/Weave1.jpg
Lambeau Field's natural grass will be reinforced
by synthetic fibers to help prevent wear and tear.

MJZiggy
03-18-2007, 07:49 AM
I LOVE that thread title!

the_idle_threat
03-18-2007, 07:51 AM
:mrgreen:

KYPack
03-18-2007, 10:10 AM
I think we screwed up. GrassMaster ain't the #1 turf in the NFL. The #1 turf is FieldTurf. The big difference is the composition. Field turf is 100% artificial. The fibers are cleverly designed and woven so they look and feel like real grasss, except they never die You'll learn to rcognize it because of the tiny rubber pellets that fly up on a big collison of players on the turf. It's tough to see, but you'll notice it after awhile.

The big selling point for Grassmaster is that a tiny % of the fibers are real grass. That, and on a rainy game the players still get muddy. I think that was the main selling point to the Pack, was the muddy presence. I can see the look on TT's face whn he realized his lads would get dirty.

FieldTurf is the superior turf in every respect, & I feel the Pack will eventually get it.

oregonpackfan
03-18-2007, 10:29 AM
I agree with KYPack's advocacy of FieldTurf. I am 100% for its use and hope the Packers use it eventually at Lambeau.

The Willamette Valley of Oregon has been called the "Grass Seed Capital of the World" yet many high schools have switched to FieldTurf for many reasons:

1. you can play on it year round no matter if the sport is football, soccer, or field hockey.
2. it has excellent drainage and is virtually maintenance free
3. it has a soft absorbancy reduding injuries
4. unlike the artificial AstroTurf, the players cleats do no lock in the surface and cause knee injuries.

Finally, it is cost-effective for high school budgets.

I was upset when the Wilsonville School District tore out its fine sodded grass for FieldTurf. The Field Maintencce Coordinator told me that FieldTurf would pay for itself in 3-4 years! He said there would be no mowing, fertilizing, re-seeding, or continual chalking of boundaries. When schools are faced with tight athletic budgets, FieldTurf saves them tens thousands of dollars in the long run.

MadtownPacker
03-18-2007, 11:35 AM
I dont like it any fieldturf or this other crap. Sounds like the field is an advantage to indoor teams. Just stick to the natural stuff. It also sounds liek the only reason Fieldturf installed being installed is tradition. If that is the case then no change should be made at all.

Question: With the grass field that has been used the last few season has any player, Packer or oppponent, torn his ACL at Lambeau? I dont recall any other then Duece McAllister in 2005.

Bretsky
03-18-2007, 11:52 AM
I dont like it any fieldturf or this other crap. Sounds like the field is an advantage to indoor teams. Just stick to the natural stuff. It also sounds liek the only reason Fieldturf installed being installed is tradition. If that is the case then no change should be made at all.

Question: With the grass field that has been used the last few season has any player, Packer or oppponent, torn his ACL at Lambeau? I dont recall any other then Duece McAllister in 2005.


Was Underwood at home or on the road ?

esoxx
03-18-2007, 12:32 PM
I totally agree wtih Mad on this issue. Football shouldn't be about perfect conditions, that's always been part of the mystique, for me at least, about this game I love. Play and win through whatever conditions are present.

I've always hated artificial surface, even if it looks like grass.

Next thing you know people will be advocating throwing up a dome around Lambeau b/c it's too windy at times.

MJZiggy
03-18-2007, 12:34 PM
You have a point. I like a good game of mud ball.

swede
03-18-2007, 12:38 PM
***********************************

http://www.shalomhairextensions.com/products/weave2.jpghttp://www.shalomhairextensions.com/products/Weave1.jpg
Lambeau Field's natural grass will be reinforced
by synthetic fibers to help prevent wear and tear.

Al Harris wants his extensions back![/b]

GBRulz
03-18-2007, 12:40 PM
Yeah, they've been working on this now pretty much since the off-season started.

Anyhow, i'm not enthused about the number of other teams that have had this surface only to replace it or get rid of it altogether. Sure, they may use their field more than us, but you can't compare the winter months here to anywhere else. Here is what I don't understand; since Clark Hinkle field already has this surface, why haven't we tried it out during the winter months? Sure, the players rave about it during training camp, but it's also 80 degrees that time of year. I feel that this is something we should have tried out before the replacing the surface in the stadium.

Scott Campbell
03-18-2007, 12:57 PM
***********************************

http://www.shalomhairextensions.com/products/weave2.jpghttp://www.shalomhairextensions.com/products/Weave1.jpg
Lambeau Field's natural grass will be reinforced
by synthetic fibers to help prevent wear and tear.

Al Harris wants his extensions back![/b]

:lol:

RashanGary
03-18-2007, 05:02 PM
I looked at Phillys turf against the Giants and I said "damn, that stuff is bad" but then I saw Chicagos real turf and it was just as bad so I don't think there is anything you can do in the uppermidwest with real grass that won't be bad.

I think the players endorsement is the most important thing. It plays well and plays safe. That is a big deal IMO.

Patler
03-18-2007, 07:40 PM
The big selling point for Grassmaster is that a tiny % of the fibers are real grass.

I believe it is just the opposite, a small % are artificial. In essence, it is a "reinforced" natural grass field.

MJZiggy
03-18-2007, 07:45 PM
I dont like it any fieldturf or this other crap. Sounds like the field is an advantage to indoor teams. Just stick to the natural stuff. It also sounds liek the only reason Fieldturf installed being installed is tradition. If that is the case then no change should be made at all.

Question: With the grass field that has been used the last few season has any player, Packer or oppponent, torn his ACL at Lambeau? I dont recall any other then Duece McAllister in 2005.


Was Underwood at home or on the road ?

It happened at San Diego.

BallHawk
03-18-2007, 07:49 PM
I dont like it any fieldturf or this other crap. Sounds like the field is an advantage to indoor teams. Just stick to the natural stuff. It also sounds liek the only reason Fieldturf installed being installed is tradition. If that is the case then no change should be made at all.

Question: With the grass field that has been used the last few season has any player, Packer or oppponent, torn his ACL at Lambeau? I dont recall any other then Duece McAllister in 2005.


Was Underwood at home or on the road ?

It happened at San Diego.

San Diego uses grass as their surface.

Chevelle2
03-18-2007, 07:57 PM
will the field itself look any different to viewers of the game?

RashanGary
03-18-2007, 08:06 PM
Right, Patler..They just said it was 97% real grass and 3% artificial fiber.

My education and job are civil engineering related *Hopefully an engineer sooner than later* and soil is a big part of what I do. I think this is the best way to have a soft, drainable field with good traction while still keeping the real grass tradition.

Clay is a stickier *when wet*, more durable soil that is needed to keep a field together. You cannot plant grass in beach sand because even if it grew, it would tear up as soon as it was played on.

The problem with clay, although it is the only natural soil that will hold together a football field, is that it bonds with water and takes a plastic state *slippery* that also drains very slowly.


The main goal, as I understand it, is to get rid of the clay base which becomes very slippery when wet and doesn't drain when introduced with water while still maintain the tradition of a real grass field, 97%. In order to replace clay with sand, they had to find a way to keep the field together and this synthetic weave technology makes that possible.

Jimx29
03-18-2007, 08:59 PM
give me this any day of the week...

http://i15.tinypic.com/4415gmt.jpg
http://i19.tinypic.com/4ie12mt.jpg

KYPack
03-18-2007, 09:54 PM
The big selling point for Grassmaster is that a tiny % of the fibers are real grass.

I believe it is just the opposite, a small % are artificial. In essence, it is a "reinforced" natural grass field.

OOpps, Well Patler's right. Grassmaster is mainly Grass. I was confusing it with another system. Believe me, it will have problems. GB is too northern a clime to have a natural grass field be effective late in the year.

I know it troubles that crusty ol' curmudgeon MTP, but if we wanna have good turf in December, FieldTurf is the way to go. It looks, feels, & plays just like the real deal. The only thing that is missing is muddy jersies in rain games.

I've walked on Paul Brown's turf & that shit is amazing. They did a helluva a job creating the fibers, it looks just like grass. I didn't smoke any of it, but other'n that, it's a great simulation.

Grassmaster?, Heinz field is a muddy pit just like it's always been. I've heard rumblings that they will eventually junk Grassmaster and go with FieldTurf.

I hope our stuff works, but I doubt it.

swede
03-18-2007, 10:13 PM
Do you think the President or the GM gets to make the final call on what kind of turf?

Cheesehead Craig
03-19-2007, 04:49 PM
I'd prefer if Lambeau got a boob job versus a weave...

Charles Woodson
03-19-2007, 05:03 PM
Do you think the President or the GM gets to make the final call on what kind of turf?

idk but i think that whatever the team preforms best on is a big factor

GBRulz
03-19-2007, 05:57 PM
Do you think the President or the GM gets to make the final call on what kind of turf?

I would assume that the final decision is passed on for the Board of Directors to decide on. Not 100% sure though.

TT has spent more on grass than he has in FA ! :shock: