Tragedy at Virginia Tech

[mmmdk]

Words cannot describe the horror that happened today. I feel awful.

Columbine & the tower shooter at Texas - similar shootings has happened in Germany years ago. 15 years ago six students were killed at my university (Aarhus University) by a former student; only time such a tragedy happened in Denmark.

Damnit.

[MJZiggy]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/16/AR2007041600533.html?hpid=topnews

Senseless. My heart goes out to the families of the victims and the students on the campus.

[oregonpackfan]

Tragic, senseless, horific... These are just the first few words that come to my mind regarding this incident.

[packinpatland]

Makes you want to go gather your children, regardless of age.

This makes me nauseous. Let's pray for those families.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Hard to fathom how messed up somebody would have to be to do something like this.

[LL2]

Hard to fathom how messed up somebody would have to be to do something like this.

Not only that, but would drive someone to do something like this. It’s something I can’t comprehend, and sure none of you can either. The person that did this had to be thinking about doing this for a while and planned it out. So, it’s not a momentary “Well, I’ll smash your face in!” type of thought. It definitely has to be deep rooted anger, but why kill innocent people you do not even know. It’s so senseless. I know many of you will disagree, but I do believe a lot of it has to do with the music and content in movies that sing and show senseless violence. Is it the cause of it, not necessarily, but it is fuel for their thought. I do not even watch horror movies. There is no point to them. Some may be angry at God, like the man who killed the Amish school girls, and others seek revenge but why take it out on innocent people. All of this will just leave the victims families want to know “why?”

[HarveyWallbangers]

The first thing people will do when this happens is blame guns. More than likely, this guy didn't have a gun legally and if one of those 29 people had a concealed weapon, there might not be 29 dead. Sorry I even touched on that, but I know that will come next. I won't get into that argument any further. I think your point is a good one. Personally, I think the bigger issue does have to do with Hollywood. I just think it breeds this type of culture. It's obviously not the sole issue. Parenting is the biggest issue, but I do think Hollywood and the like (movies, music, video games, TV) have a role in this. My wife was just commenting about how every other movie that's out right now seems to be a horror movie. And the horror movies that are out now are extremely demented. It's a combination of everything with parenting being at the top of the list. It's quite depressing.

[Patler]

I'm sure I will be ridiculed for this, but I am extremely concerned with the violent nature of video games. Game after game has people walking through neighborhoods, buildings, whatever, shooting everyone in sight; or driving and killing pedestrians, other drivers, whatever.

Too many kids, even very young kids, play these types of games for hours each day, almost everyday, for years and years. We as adults can hopefully differentiate the right from the wrong, entertainment from reality, etc. Children are not always capable of that. Many adolescents do not understand the physical finality of death. I have to believe that being barraged by this type of imagery and activity as a young child influences their attitudes as a young adult. For some, even a very small number, it teaches them the wrong way to deal with their problems.

Some say I worry too much, but this concerns me greatly.

[LL2]

Yes, your right parenting is the biggest issue. Hollywood does play a role, and your right not the only one. If anyone blames guns they are an idiot. It’s like the movie “Runaway Jury” where they sue the gun company. I like the movie, but hate the politics behind it. In places like Australia where they have outlawed guns crime has actually gone up, but yet many democrats would love to outlaw guns in our country too.

I will say this, someone at Virginia Tech is going to take some serious heat. The first shooting was at 7:15 am, and then the second round was 2 hours later. Someone should’ve killed that guy while he walked 4 blocks across campus to kill more. Maybe that sounds easier said than done, but what happened during those two hours?

[packinpatland]

Patler, I am with you 100%

Strange as this may sound, we have long been a society that finds hurting each other a form of entertainment.

[Zool]

I'm sure I will be ridiculed for this, but I am extremely concerned with the violent nature of video games. Game after game has people walking through neighborhoods, buildings, whatever, shooting everyone in sight; or driving and killing pedestrians, other drivers, whatever.

Too many kids, even very young kids, play these types of games for hours each day, almost everyday, for years and years. We as adults can hopefully differentiate the right from the wrong, entertainment from reality, etc. Children are not always capable of that. Many adolescents do not understand the physical finality of death. I have to believe that being barraged by this type of imagery and activity as a young child influences their attitudes as a young adult. For some, even a very small number, it teaches them the wrong way to deal with their problems.

Some say I worry too much, but this concerns me greatly.Its way more about parents explaining right and wrong and using TV and video games as babysitters than the games themselves.

[Chubbyhubby]

This is very tradgic. 31 people including the shooter is now confirmed dead. This is the worst school shooting in US History.

[LL2]

Patler, I am with you 100%

Strange as this may sound, we have long been a society that finds hurting each other a form of entertainment.

I 2nd this! It’s not so much as parents teaching their kids right from wrong, which they should do, but no parent should let their kids play video games where the player shoots someone in the head and the head explodes. Anyone, no matter the age, that finds that “entertainment” needs their head examined. My wife and I do not plan on buying our kids any video game system. Our first is only 2, so we will see how it will go, but the answer will be no. Fortunately we know 2 other parents that take the same position so hopefully their kids playing with our kids will be helpful influences.

[MJZiggy]

That does help a lot LL2. The closest thing mine has to shooting games is Lego Star Wars where if someone gets "shot" the lego bricks fall apart. It is possible to get gaming systems that don't have shooting games, it's just a matter of checking out the games you get.

[Partial]

This is absolutely horrible. My goodness. 33 students killed and many more in critical condition. Why didn't they cancel classes and tell people to stay in their rooms after the first shooting?

:cry:

At least it was at college where not everyone knows eachother. At a high school I don't think those students would ever recover since everyone is close with one another.

[Kiwon]

Getting accurate info during the initial aftermath of these chaotic events is nearly impossible. I've heard it said that its best to assume that the first three reports aren't accurate.

33 dead at least 28 injured with two hours passing between the initial fatality and the start of the real carnage. This guy was very determined and motivated to kill.

One person described the shooter as an Asian male. Time will tell if this is true.

The motive? It's hard to imagine why the innocent were targeted. My hope against hope is that there isn't any terrorist connection.

Just a terrible day. But, at the same time, we forget that on average there are 47 murders a day in America.

[MJZiggy]

At least it was at college where not everyone knows eachother. At a high school I don't think those students would ever recover since everyone is close with one another.

I don't know about that Partial. That school is in a pretty small town. I could be wrong, but I'd guess that they are a lot closer than students at Wisconsin or any of the big campuses. I'd imagine a decent number of the student body knows each other there.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

This is horrible. I can't believe what goes though some peoples mind.

[GrnBay007]

Do any of your local Jr. High Schools or High Schools have a metal detector the kids have to go through? I have been thinking a lot about this the last while and I'm in full support of it. Ours don't, while the Courthouse does. I'm not against the Courthouse having a metal detector but I do believe you hear more in the news about people going into schools and shooting students than you do them going into Courthouses and doing the same. With gang violence always on the rise and kids getting guns at younger and younger ages I feel we need to be proactive. If a metal detector would prevent just one incident of a kid bringing a weapon to school it would be well worth it. I know this is a bit off topic...but like I said, it's been on my mind for quite some time and the events today just make my opinion on this stronger. Drug dogs go through the schools multiple times per month. That was a big debate in the community and was finally voted in last year. I think anything we can do to make the schools safer is well worth the money!!!

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and families today.

[BallHawk]

This country is seriously f*cked up. This is a trend for this country, which is a country fueled by guns and violence. I agree that video games, movies, and rap culture are all a part of this. Kids, nowadays, are attracted by violence, drugs, sex, gore, etc. So the companies give the people what they want and look what results.

Gun control is the main issue here, though. Does this time of thing happen in the other countries of the world? Not very frequently. A teenager could easily get a gun in this country if he tried.

My condolences to the family and the students that are affected by this tragedy. It's a shame this bastard killed himself. I really would of liked to see justice and revenge served here.

[Brando19]

Virginia Tech is about 30 minutes from my house. A local high school was on a field trip to VA Tech this morning when it happened. Luckily, they're all okay.

[mmmdk]

I just heard that is was the 4th shooting at a university/school within 7 or 8 month in the US. It happens other places too, mainly in western countries, but easy access to guns is a factor but not the only one. I think the general rhetoric is violent - just read todays news or any other forum even politicians.

Truely a terrible day.

[BallHawk]

I'm guessing that the motive was either he was either mentally disturbed and had psychiatric problems or had a vendetta against the University for some reason.

Man, this is just really messed up.

[BallHawk]

I think anything we can do to make the schools safer is well worth the money!!!

Nah, schools would rather spend the money on useful things like vending machines or athletic equipment. :roll:

[oregonpackfan]

Do any of your local Jr. High Schools or High Schools have a metal detector the kids have to go through? I have been thinking a lot about this the last while and I'm in full support of it. Ours don't, while the Courthouse does. I'm not against the Courthouse having a metal detector but I do believe you hear more in the news about people going into schools and shooting students than you do them going into Courthouses and doing the same. With gang violence always on the rise and kids getting guns at younger and younger ages I feel we need to be proactive. If a metal detector would prevent just one incident of a kid bringing a weapon to school it would be well worth it. I know this is a bit off topic...but like I said, it's been on my mind for quite some time and the events today just make my opinion on this stronger. Drug dogs go through the schools multiple times per month. That was a big debate in the community and was finally voted in last year. I think anything we can do to make the schools safer is well worth the money!!!

Most elemetary schools here in Oregon only keep the main door open. Visitors, therefore, have to enter the main door by the office and register. Many middle schools do the same.

Since some high schools are so large, they have to keep several or more doors open just to keep open the flow of student traffic.

That proactive precaution of just keeping one door open, of course, would not prevent anyone from just walking in the front door and start shooting away.

Some inner city schools in the Northeast use metal detectors but are cost prohibitive for most schools. Not only are the metal detectors expensive, but you have to pay a security guard to be there and go through the packs and/or belongings of the students/visitors.

Though some precautions can take place, in the end there is no true effective way to stop some deranged individual from wreaking havoc on a school.

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and families today.

[Partial]

I think anything we can do to make the schools safer is well worth the money!!!

Nah, schools would rather spend the money on useful things like vending machines or athletic equipment. :roll:

Yes I know that is terrible that interscholastic and intramural sports exist in high school.

Blaming the schools is ignorant and will lead to a waste of tax dollars. Blame the mothers and fathers.

[Partial]

Do any of your local Jr. High Schools or High Schools have a metal detector the kids have to go through? I have been thinking a lot about this the last while and I'm in full support of it. Ours don't, while the Courthouse does. I'm not against the Courthouse having a metal detector but I do believe you hear more in the news about people going into schools and shooting students than you do them going into Courthouses and doing the same. With gang violence always on the rise and kids getting guns at younger and younger ages I feel we need to be proactive. If a metal detector would prevent just one incident of a kid bringing a weapon to school it would be well worth it. I know this is a bit off topic...but like I said, it's been on my mind for quite some time and the events today just make my opinion on this stronger. Drug dogs go through the schools multiple times per month. That was a big debate in the community and was finally voted in last year. I think anything we can do to make the schools safer is well worth the money!!!

Having metal detectors in schools wouldn't work as well as you think because all laptops and electronic devices would have to go through a seperate machine (meaning virtually all backpacks), and any cars keys, change, etc would have to go into a basket. This means you'd need at least two operators and machines to effectively scan one person. Imagine trying to scan 2000 students or so. It'd take a lot of manpower, and a lot of time when students are arriving in the morning.

I don't think it would change a whole lot. If someone wants to get a gun in they'll find a way. Same things with airplanes.

Ultimately, the parents need to be proactive and make sure their children are raised properly, have friends, learn to treat people well, etc. My guess is most of the parents of people who act in such a unnatural way are very negligent of not only who their kids are and what they're doing, but who their friends are, what other kids think of them, why other kids treat them the way they do, etc.

[Partial]

This country is seriously f*cked up. This is a trend for this country, which is a country fueled by guns and violence. I agree that video games, movies, and rap culture are all a part of this. Kids, nowadays, are attracted by violence, drugs, sex, gore, etc. So the companies give the people what they want and look what results.

Gun control is the main issue here, though. Does this time of thing happen in the other countries of the world? Not very frequently. A teenager could easily get a gun in this country if he tried.

My condolences to the family and the students that are affected by this tragedy. It's a shame this bastard killed himself. I really would of liked to see justice and revenge served here.

I bet if you did a study most of the violence is coming from outcasts who are left out and the "losers" within school getting revenge. I would say this sort of violence is fueled far more often by people listening to the slipknot hard-metal rock about hating the world than the rap music about screwing chicks and smoking pot.

[justanotherpackfan]

This country is seriously f*cked up. This is a trend for this country, which is a country fueled by guns and violence. I agree that video games, movies, and rap culture are all a part of this. Kids, nowadays, are attracted by violence, drugs, sex, gore, etc. So the companies give the people what they want and look what results.

Gun control is the main issue here, though. Does this time of thing happen in the other countries of the world? Not very frequently. A teenager could easily get a gun in this country if he tried.

My condolences to the family and the students that are affected by this tragedy. It's a shame this bastard killed himself. I really would of liked to see justice and revenge served here.
That's a cop-out with you claiming rap music has anything to do with this. I will agree with you that rap and hip hop needs to do more to improve its image but that's still a cop-out. What about goth music? That kind of music is more disturbing than rap.

[justanotherpackfan]

I bet if you did a study most of the violence is coming from outcasts who are left out and the "losers" within school getting revenge. I would say this sort of violence is fueled far more often by people listening to the slipknot hard-metal rock about hating the world than the rap music about screwing chicks and smoking pot.
Amen to that.

Rap is great pump up music even if the lyrics are bad.

[BallHawk]

You can add 75% of the music today, too.

[retailguy]

This country is seriously f*cked up. This is a trend for this country, which is a country fueled by guns and violence. I agree that video games, movies, and rap culture are all a part of this. Kids, nowadays, are attracted by violence, drugs, sex, gore, etc. So the companies give the people what they want and look what results.

Gun control is the main issue here, though. Does this time of thing happen in the other countries of the world? Not very frequently. A teenager could easily get a gun in this country if he tried.

My condolences to the family and the students that are affected by this tragedy. It's a shame this bastard killed himself. I really would of liked to see justice and revenge served here.
That's a cop-out with you claiming rap music has anything to do with this. I will agree with you that rap and hip hop needs to do more to improve its image but that's still a cop-out. What about goth music? That kind of music is more disturbing than rap.

He did not say rap MUSIC. He said RAP CULTURE. Culture is not music.

I agree with him. RAP CULTURE is a problem.

[Partial]

Rap culture isn't good by any means and certainly has its own fair share of violence, but when talking about school shootings I would argue that the goth/outcast/emo culture is involved much more heavily.

[MJZiggy]

What if we just blame the dude with the guns? I mean, after all, we don't know what his musical tastes were. We just know he chained the doors shut and started shooting up classrooms. We don't know why.

[Partial]

What if we just blame the dude with the guns? I mean, after all, we don't know what his musical tastes were. We just know he chained the doors shut and started shooting up classrooms. We don't know why.

That is exactly right.

[GrnBay007]

Most elemetary schools here in Oregon only keep the main door open. Visitors, therefore, have to enter the main door by the office and register. Many middle schools do the same.

Since some high schools are so large, they have to keep several or more doors open just to keep open the flow of student traffic.

That proactive precaution of just keeping one door open, of course, would not prevent anyone from just walking in the front door and start shooting away.

Some inner city schools in the Northeast use metal detectors but are cost prohibitive for most schools. Not only are the metal detectors expensive, but you have to pay a security guard to be there and go through the packs and/or belongings of the students/visitors.

Though some precautions can take place, in the end there is no true effective way to stop some deranged individual from wreaking havoc on a school.



At our schools after the kids enter the school all door are locked and any visitor has to come to the front door, state who they are, and have to be permitted in. But do you know why this started about 4 years ago? Because a notorious, high risk to re-offend sex offender walked into a school and sexually assaulted an elementary girl in the school restroom. How sick is that? A place where this little girl should have felt safe was violated in the worst way and no doubt will have a life long affect on her. This is what I mean by being pro-active. Why wait for a tragedy to happen to take action?

Yes the cost would be extensive. They raise taxes for things I feel are far less important to the community then the safety of our children.

There are two officers at the door at the Courthouse. There are two separate detectors. They do not go through bags....they go through a machine similar to an airport and then you empty your pockets and walk through a separate detector. Very costly? probably, but how do you put a cost on a single life?

[falco]

craziness

[GBRulz]

I just heard about this on the news when I got back into my room tonight. I am absolutely sickened. Sadly, the news seemed to be more focused on the idea of concealed weapons vs the tradgedy itself. Here in Utah, they said they are the only state in the US that allows concealed weapons to be carried in universities and some of the staff went on and on about how if what happened in Virginia today, happened here, many lives would possibly have been saved because the gunman would have been able to be confronted.

I live in WI, which is one of the few states in the U.S. that does not have a concealed and carry law. I am not convinced that by carrying a gun it is ultimately safer.

Anyhow, God Bless the families of this horrible incident. What the heck would possess someone to do this?

A couple of you before were also asking about why classes weren't cancelled after the first two shootings. Great question. The news here just said that the officers thought it was an isolated incident and had no idea the gunman went to another building.

[Partial]

I am not trying to be insensitive but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that students didn't charge and tackle this guy knowing they were likely to be killed anyway.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I am not trying to be insensitive but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that students didn't charge and tackle this guy knowing they were likely to be killed anyway.

I kind of thought the same thing. Everybody talked about how they hid or ran or jumped out the window. Then again, put in their shoes it's hard to say how one would react. You'd like to think you'd gang up and go after the guy.

Apparently, the shooter is a Chinese man that arrived last year with a student visa. That part of the story is going to open up a whole new can of worms. Just a bizarre story. I'm sure guns will be blamed. And I'm also sure hardships that the Chinese guy had to endure will be used to try to excuse what he did.

[MadtownPacker]

The first reaction is to get out of the way. After that you have to decide if you are gonna go first and likely take a bullet. Plus the maniac had two pistols and it sounds like he was just popping off shots rapidly. Like mentioned, he was going off like it was a video game.

[the_idle_threat]

Horribly sad turn of events.

While I'm tempted to speculate upon what factors caused the tragedy, we just don't know any of the details yet.

The only one to blame at this point is the sick bastard who pulled the triggers.

[cpk1994]

I just heard about this on the news when I got back into my room tonight. I am absolutely sickened. Sadly, the news seemed to be more focused on the idea of concealed weapons vs the tradgedy itself. Here in Utah, they said they are the only state in the US that allows concealed weapons to be carried in universities and some of the staff went on and on about how if what happened in Virginia today, happened here, many lives would possibly have been saved because the gunman would have been able to be confronted.

I live in WI, which is one of the few states in the U.S. that does not have a concealed and carry law. I am not convinced that by carrying a gun it is ultimately safer.

Anyhow, God Bless the families of this horrible incident. What the heck would possess someone to do this?

A couple of you before were also asking about why classes weren't cancelled after the first two shootings. Great question. The news here just said that the officers thought it was an isolated incident and had no idea the gunman went to another building.

Well, the police and the University president will have a lot of explaining to do why they didn't warn ANYONE that there was a murderer on the loose. I mean students were walking about the campus unaware that their is a crazed gunman at large. This is a total police screwup and I think the university president could even lose his job over it.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I am not trying to be insensitive but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that students didn't charge and tackle this guy knowing they were likely to be killed anyway.

You could only tackle him if you were behind him and I don't think that was possible with him chaining up the doors. But do you seriously think some kids sitting in a classroom at 9:00 in the morning listening to their teacher lecture and all of s sudden a mad man walks in and starts shooting people one by one that their first reaction is going to be let me tackle him. For that to work more than one person would have to do it and at least two or three are surely to die if they rushed him. No way can you ask someone in that situation to give up their life and basically become a hero.

For us not being their it makes sense because at least only a couple people would die, but its a lot harder for the people in that situation.

[Partial]

I don't necessarily agree with that because he shot 30 people in Norris Hall that were not himself. That takes a significant chunk of time assuming he is doing it from afar and is missing a couple of shots.

Maybe its just the cowboy in me, but my immediate thoughts would be if I charge and leap at this guy he isn't going to be able to get a good shot on me, and if he does it will likely only be one. If thats how god has deemed me to die, than I would let fate run its course.

Certainly if you have 3 guys charging him he is going to get taken down. I've seen plenty of class rooms and unless is was very unusually shaped, their were desks probably 10 feet from the door. You can cover that distance in slightly more than one second. I don't know that his reaction would be fast enough to get a shot off even.

[MadtownPacker]

It is obvious you have never dealt with a violent situation in real life. Everything happens fast and you dont have time to think. It doesnt take long to get shot and I doubt you are faster then a bullet.

You can feel like a "cowboy" typing away on your keyboard but when the action is live and you are playing for keeps it all changes. Yes it would have been nice if someone had took this guy down somehow but the fact he shot 30+ persons tells me he meant business.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Well, the police and the University president will have a lot of explaining to do why they didn't warn ANYONE that there was a murderer on the loose. I mean students were walking about the campus unaware that their is a crazed gunman at large. This is a total police screwup and I think the university president could even lose his job over it.

Why are people so quick to point fingers like this? The university and police have said they thought they were dealing with a domestic dispute. It's not like nobody ever gets murdered. Who could have foreseen that this would happen? How much could they have really stopped? They obviously didn't have good eyewitnesses because they had taken another guy in custody, so it's not like they had an ID on this guy. I always love when people are quick to condemn the authorities over something like this. It's not like they everything can be shut down every time there's a murder. There isn't all that much that can be done to prevent something like this.

[Partial]

Everyone is on their guard at school today. It is very apparent in the computer lab. People just seem on edge. Especially myself. Without knowing anything about the shooters motives, etc. one has to wonder whether it was a one-school thing out of anger, a nation-wide terrorist attack that one person jumped the gun on, etc.

It's kind of creepy, to be honest.

MTP you know you would have tried to take the guy down too. It has nothing to do with being a cowboy it has more to do with my view on life, my view on glory, and my view on how one should react in that situation. If it took my life to safe those of twenty more people, I would gladly give it at this stage. I don't have kids or a family or anything like that.

[LL2]

You can feel like a "cowboy" typing away on your keyboard but when the action is live and you are playing for keeps it all changes. Yes it would have been nice if someone had took this guy down somehow but the fact he shot 30+ persons tells me he meant business.

Exactly. I wondered why no one took him out sooner, but to say that is thinking I would’ve been more brave. I’ve never been in that situation and I probably would’ve been scared with my tail between my legs. I did get robbed once back in college delivering pizzas and a guy pulled a big knife on me and ask for the pizzas and all my money. At that moment I didn’t care I gave him everything and he took off. He set up the whole thing, arranging a delivery to a place he didn’t live and hid behind the bushes and waited until I showed up. I quit my job that day, because it scared the crap out of me. That was about 15 years ago, so I can imagine something like this was 10 times more horrifying for these college kids. I also watched the video taped by the person who got it on his cell phone last night and for a good 20 seconds all you could hear is one shot after another. I do not think the students had time to react, and not until he left the room and they could brace the door shut.

[pacfan]

Until you have been fired upon, knowing the shooter intends to end your life, I don't think anybody can predict how they will act.

[MadtownPacker]

I mean students were walking about the campus unaware that their is a crazed gunman at large.
Thats the thing. No one knew he was a crazed gunman at first. By that time he had already killed everyone and offed himself.

[Little Whiskey]

Blaming the schools police or guns is just plain foolish. Police and the school thought it was a single act in the dorm room, that took place in the morning. how the hell are they supposed to tell 20000 kids to get the hell off campus. who knows were he would have popped up next. what if they told the kids to stay in their dorms, then the dude barracades those doors shut and starts shooting. what about all the commuters who don't live on campus, how the hell do you contact each of them. impossible.

I agree with some of the statements earlier about guns. imagine if Va tech allowed concealed weapons. you think this idiot would have thought twice about taking shots in a crowded building. chances are pretty good at least one person would have been carrying. might as well blame imagration. since we are blaming every thing else other than this idiot!!

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070417/070417_cho_vmed_830a7.widec.jpg



NBC, MSNBC and news services
Updated: 13 minutes ago

BLACKSBURG, Va. - A 23-year-old senior from South Korea whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school’s counseling service was behind the massacre of at least 30 people locked inside a university classroom building in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history, the university said Tuesday.

Ballistics tests also found that one of the guns used in that attack was also used in a shooting two hours earlier at a dormitory that left two people dead at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Virginia State Police said.

Police identified the shooter as Cho Seung-Hui (pronounced Choh Suhng-whee), of Centreville, Va., who was a senior in the English Department at Virginia Tech. Cho, a resident alien who immigrated to the United States from South Korea in 1992, lived on campus in Harper Residence Hall.

The bloodbath ended with Cho’s suicide, bringing the death toll from two separate shootings — first at the dormitory, then in a classroom building — to 33 and stamping the campus in the picturesque Blue Ridge Mountains with unspeakable tragedy.

‘He was a loner’
Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university’s English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department’s director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as “troubled.”

“There was some concern about him,” Rude told The Associated Press. “Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it’s creative or if they’re describing things, if they’re imagining things or just how real it might be. But we’re all alert to not ignore things ike this.”

She said Cho was referred to the counseling service, but she said she did not know when or what the outcome was. Rude refused to release any of his writings or his grades, citing privacy laws.

NBC News’ Pete Williams reported that police had found a note in which Cho listed “random grievances,” but few other details were immediately available. That seemed in keeping for a young man who apparently left little impression in the Virginia Tech community.

“He was a loner, and we’re having difficulty finding information about him,” said Larry Hincker, the university’s associate vice president for community relations.

Cho’s fellow residents of Harper Hall said few people knew the gunman, who kept to himself.

“He can’t have been an outgoing kind of person,” Meredith Daly, 19, of Danville, Va., told MSNBC.com’s Bill Dedman.

Students live six to a suite, said Stephen Scott, a freshman engineering student from Marlton, N.J., and do not necessarily know other residents.

Scott said police and FBI agents went through the dorm Monday night showing a picture of Cho and trying to find anybody who recognized or knew him. He did not know whether they were successful.

In Centreville, where Cho’s family lived in an off-white, two-story townhouse, people who knew Cho concurred that he kept to himself.

“He was very quiet, always by himself,” said Abdul Shash, a neighbor. Shash said Cho spent a lot of his free time playing basketball and would not respond if someone greeted him. He described the family as quiet.

South Korea’s Foreign Ministry expressed its condolences, saying that there was no known motive for the shootings and that South Korea hoped the tragedy would not “stir up racial prejudice or confrontation.”

Ballistics evidence points to student
Two law enforcement officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been officially announced, said Cho’s fingerprints were found on the two guns used in the shootings. The serial numbers had been filed off, the officials said.

Law enforcement officials told Williams that Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for the purchase of a Glock 9mm pistol in March. As a permanent legal resident, Cho was eligible to buy a handgun unless he had been convicted of any felony criminal charges.

Cho renewed his green card in late 2003 and would have undergone a background check at that time, immigration officials told NBC affiliate WSLS-TV of Roanoke. If a criminal record had showed up then, officials would have denied the renewal, they said.

Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police, said it was reasonable to assume that Cho was the shooter in both attacks but that the link was yet definitive.

“There’s no evidence of any accomplice at either event, but we’re exploring the possibility,” he said.

At least 26 people were taken to hospitals after the second attack, some of them seriously injured. Twelve students remained in hospitals in stable condition Tuesday, and most were expected to be released soon, NBC News’ Michelle Kosinski reported from Montgomery Regional Medical Center.

Bush to attend service
State, local and federal investigators spent the night collecting, processing and analyzing evidence from within Norris Hall, which housed engineering classes, offices and laboratories. The deceased were recovered from at least four classrooms on the second floor and a stairwell. Cho was discovered in a classroom among the victims.

All of the deceased were transported to the medical examiner’s office in Roanoke for examination and identification. The names of the deceased students and faculty will be released once all of the victims are positively identified and their families are notified.

President Bush planned to attend a memorial service Tuesday afternoon at the university, the White House said, and Gov. Timothy Kaine was flying back to Virginia from Tokyo for the 2 p.m. convocation.

[Kiwon]

The gunman was a South Korean! :shock:

Oh boy, this is going to be dissected to the nth degree here.

Unfortunately these things bring out the best and worst in people and the media here will be quick to focus on any reprisals against South Koreans in the U.S.. The American students here could very well face a backlash if something does happen.

The effects of this news will last a long time... :(

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I think race is irrelevant. Every race has good and bad people. Some black people are bad and some are good, some white people are bad and some are good, etc. It's not fair to pen a whole race on the actions of a few.

[Joemailman]

This incident does in a way give credence to arguments made by people on both sides of the gun control issue. Proponents of gun control will claim that he could not have killed this many people if not for the availability of hand guns. That is likely true. Opponents of gun control will claim, and already have, that if one of the students in the hall had been armed, he could have been stopped before killing 32 people. That is also likely true. The question I guess is whether our society would be safer as a whole if we had large numbers of people carrying around hand guns. How many domestic disturbances that end relatively harmlessly would end more tragically if one of the people involved were armed? Hard to know for sure. It is a tough issue.

[MJZiggy]

Joe, although certainly in this case, the argument will revolve around handguns, I believe the issue in gun control is more about semi-automatic handguns. I think there's a big difference between being able to pull the trigger 6 times and being able to spray a room with bullets. I'm not against handguns in general (or even legally concealing them), but if the purpose of the gun is to hunt and not to kill people, do you really need to shoot the deer 20 times?

[Kiwon]

I think race is irrelevant. Every race has good and bad people. Some black people are bad and some are good, some white people are bad and some are good, etc. It's not fair to pen a whole race on the actions of a few.

All true. Yet at the same time you have to realize that Korean culture is group-oriented and they operate from that basis while Americans are off-the-scale individualistic.

Even though this guy has apparently been in the U.S. for 14-15 years, the average South Korean citizen and the government itself views this student to one degree or another as representing both the country and the South Korean people/culture.

Right now South Korean diplomats are on their way to West Virginia. They will apologize several times over the actions of this troubled person. I'm sure that they will make a direct, in-person apology to the families of the victims. Rightly or wrongly, they will assume part of the responsibility for the crimes that Cho, Seung-Hui committed. The racial aspect of this is the first thing in their minds.

It's just a very different worldview from America.

[Merlin]

My thoughts and prayers go out to all of the victims of this horrendous crime.

Here is what will happen as a result of this:

1) People will start walking the other way anytime they see anyone of Asian decent. - You can bet that the media will find the two people in the country that do it and apply that to the whole country thus creating more racism.

2) Congress will drum up some more useless "gun control" legislation. - When will they get it through their heads that when guns are banned only criminals will have them?

3) The university will be sued. - Hypocrisy at it's finest. You can't sue the killer, you know, the one responsible.

4) The shooter will become the victim and martyr. - Blame everyone but the killer (notice I did say "killer" and not "disturbed student").

5) Some kind of music will be blamed (as has already been posted here). - Music doesn't kill people.

What should happen:

1) Security measures should be gone over to help reduce the chance of this happening again. But, they won't be good enough because people don't want to be inconvenienced and that will stop short of prevention (which I doubt you could ever totally prevent it from happening).

2) The media needs to drop the "Asian" decent from his description because we aren't looking for him, we have him and he is taking the eternal dirt nap. He should be referred to as the "killer" or "murderer" of 32 innocent people. I don't care if he was purple, the media has done it's fair sgare of spreading and condoning racism as it is.

3) A private fund should be set up to help the families pay for burial and any other expenses. This should not come out of the tax base. The private sector will donate more then is needed and the remainder should be set up ion a scholarship fund in the names of these individuals.

[pacfan]

I think race is irrelevant. Every race has good and bad people. Some black people are bad and some are good, some white people are bad and some are good, etc. It's not fair to pen a whole race on the actions of a few.

All true. Yet at the same time you have to realize that Korean culture is group-oriented and they operate from that basis while Americans are off-the-scale individualistic.

Even though this guy has apparently been in the U.S. for 14-15 years, the average South Korean citizen and the government itself views this student to one degree or another as representing both the country and the South Korean people/culture.

Right now South Korean diplomats are on the same to West Virginia. They will apologize several times over the actions of this troubled person. I'm sure that they will make a direct, in-person apology to the families of the victims. Rightly or wrongly, they will assume part of the responsibility for the crimes that Cho, Seung-Hui committed. The racial aspect of this is the first thing in their minds.

It's just a very different worldview from America.

South Korean is national or even a political indentity, not racial.

[MJZiggy]

I just got a recorded phone call from the school superintendent about this. I am curious as to how other school systems are handling it. Anyone hear anything?

[Kiwon]

This is just stunning in its absurdity

Blaming Charlton Heston

With a view to Monday's deadly shooting rampage at Virginia Tech, European newspapers are blaming the lack of gun control measures in the United States and implying that Charlton Heston is indirectly responsible for the scope of the killings.

Across the continent on Tuesday, European media rubber-neck at Monday's massacre in the United States. Most seem to agree about one thing: The shooting at Virginia Tech is the result of America's woeful lack of serious gun control laws. In the strongest editorialized image of the day, German cable news broadcaster NTV flashed an image of the former head of the National Rifle Association, the US gun lobby: In other words, blame rifle-wielding Charlton Heston for the 33 dead.
.................................................. ...............

This idiocy is only trumped by the Italian lawmaker (I think) that commented the day after Hurricane Katrina that the U.S. was getting what it deserved for not signing the Kyoto Protocal.

[Kiwon]

I think race is irrelevant. Every race has good and bad people. Some black people are bad and some are good, some white people are bad and some are good, etc. It's not fair to pen a whole race on the actions of a few.

All true. Yet at the same time you have to realize that Korean culture is group-oriented and they operate from that basis while Americans are off-the-scale individualistic.

Even though this guy has apparently been in the U.S. for 14-15 years, the average South Korean citizen and the government itself views this student to one degree or another as representing both the country and the South Korean people/culture.

Right now South Korean diplomats are on the same to West Virginia. They will apologize several times over the actions of this troubled person. I'm sure that they will make a direct, in-person apology to the families of the victims. Rightly or wrongly, they will assume part of the responsibility for the crimes that Cho, Seung-Hui committed. The racial aspect of this is the first thing in their minds.

It's just a very different worldview from America.

South Korean is national or even a political indentity, not racial.

It's not for non-Koreans to tell Koreans how they should feel or what worldview they should have.

The Korean culture is 5,000 years old and they view themselves as a distinct race first. In fact, racial purity is still of prime importance to them as a preservation of their culture and language.

They view themselves as one race of people whether they are located in South Korea, North Korea, China, Central Asia, America, Austrialia, New Zealand, Japan or anywhere else.

[BallHawk]

Unfortunately Merlin, none of that will ever happen. That is just the way the country works. Since the shooter is dead, someone has to find a posterboy to blame the whole thing on. The university is a sacrificial lamb at this point, waiting to be slaughtered. This is going to get ugly.

[pacfan]

Merlin: I agree with your last post. It is unfortunate that some people/corporations/political ideology will attempt to profit from this tragedy.

Kiwon: ?????, South Korea is still a national/political construct. There isn't race of South Koreans, right?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

This is just stunning in its absurdity

Blaming Charlton Heston

With a view to Monday's deadly shooting rampage at Virginia Tech, European newspapers are blaming the lack of gun control measures in the United States and implying that Charlton Heston is indirectly responsible for the scope of the killings.

Across the continent on Tuesday, European media rubber-neck at Monday's massacre in the United States. Most seem to agree about one thing: The shooting at Virginia Tech is the result of America's woeful lack of serious gun control laws. In the strongest editorialized image of the day, German cable news broadcaster NTV flashed an image of the former head of the National Rifle Association, the US gun lobby: In other words, blame rifle-wielding Charlton Heston for the 33 dead.
.................................................. ...............

This idiocy is only trumped by the Italian lawmaker (I think) that commented the day after Hurricane Katrina that the U.S. was getting what it deserved for not signing the Kyoto Protocal.

I love how you magnfy the importance of their criticism of heston.

Multiple paragraphs written, but only one..the first paragraph even mentions heston.

More importantly

"Papers reserve their sharpest criticism for the 2004 expiration of a 10-year ban on 19 types of semiautomatic assault weapons under the then Republican-controlled Congress. Others comment on the pro-gun lobbying activities of Heston's NRA. Some papers also draw analogies between school shootings and Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers."

[Partial]

oh my god I actually agree with Merlin on something :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Kiwon]

This is just stunning in its absurdity

Blaming Charlton Heston

With a view to Monday's deadly shooting rampage at Virginia Tech, European newspapers are blaming the lack of gun control measures in the United States and implying that Charlton Heston is indirectly responsible for the scope of the killings.

Across the continent on Tuesday, European media rubber-neck at Monday's massacre in the United States. Most seem to agree about one thing: The shooting at Virginia Tech is the result of America's woeful lack of serious gun control laws. In the strongest editorialized image of the day, German cable news broadcaster NTV flashed an image of the former head of the National Rifle Association, the US gun lobby: In other words, blame rifle-wielding Charlton Heston for the 33 dead.
.................................................. ...............

This idiocy is only trumped by the Italian lawmaker (I think) that commented the day after Hurricane Katrina that the U.S. was getting what it deserved for not signing the Kyoto Protocal.

I love how you magnfy the importance of their criticism of heston.

Multiple paragraphs written, but only one..the first paragraph even mentions heston.

More importantly

"Papers reserve their sharpest criticism for the 2004 expiration of a 10-year ban on 19 types of semiautomatic assault weapons under the then Republican-controlled Congress. Others comment on the pro-gun lobbying activities of Heston's NRA. Some papers also draw analogies between school shootings and Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers."

I quoted the headline, the first and second paragraphs, and then you added the third. THAT'S the whole introduction section of the article!

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,477686,00.html

[hurleyfan]

Rest in Peace thou innocent souls

[esoxx]

[quote="Kiwon"]This is just stunning in its absurdity

Blaming Charlton Heston

With a view to Monday's deadly shooting rampage at Virginia Tech, European newspapers are blaming the lack of gun control measures in the United States and implying that Charlton Heston is indirectly responsible for the scope of the killings.

Across the continent on Tuesday, European media rubber-neck at Monday's massacre in the United States. Most seem to agree about one thing: The shooting at Virginia Tech is the result of America's woeful lack of serious gun control laws. In the strongest editorialized image of the day, German cable news broadcaster NTV flashed an image of the former head of the National Rifle Association, the US gun lobby: In other words, blame rifle-wielding Charlton Heston for the 33 dead.
.................................................. ...............

Absured yes. But entirely predictable...and pathetic.

[the_idle_threat]

From that same link a few posts earlier:


German daily Bild writes:

"Now we will probably begin discussing the overly lax gun laws in the United States. There, buying a machine gun is often easier than getting a driver's license. And a new ban on violent games and killer videos will also be put back on the agenda. But in the end, nothing is likely to happen. And the next killer already lives somewhere among us. But we have little reason to point an accusing finger at the Americans. Despite strict gun legislation, we (in Germany) have experienced the school shootings in Erfurt and Emsdetten. We have to consider the problems in our society. And we have to take care of our fellow humans."

Starts with a ridiculous bit of exaggeration---how many of you have a driver's license ... now how many of you have a machine gun?---and then ends with a surprising bit of perspective. School shootings happen even in Europe, where there are "strict" gun control laws. :?

Don't tell the gun-ban people!

[Jimx29]

My main concern is this news knocked the Sharpton/Jackson/Imus circus right the hell off front page. How will they survive?

[rdanomly]

It looks like his mind was the dangerous weapon waiting to go off:

"College gunman disturbed teachers, classmates"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/

[HarveyWallbangers]

Crazy!

[LL2]

It looks like his mind was the dangerous weapon waiting to go off:

"College gunman disturbed teachers, classmates"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/

To bad he didn't slip off a curb and get hit by a car going 50 mph yesterday morning on his way to the dorm.

[Partial]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

[pacfan]

Kiwon, it looks like on right about some things.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/04/17/skorea.vtech.ap/index.html

I still think South Korea is a national identity, however.

[HarveyWallbangers]

This guy moved to the US when he was 8. I hardly think the fact he came from South Korea matters much when he's been in the country for so long and came over at such a young age. One deranged fuckwad though.

[Packers4Ever]

I think anything we can do to make the schools safer is well worth the money!!!

Nah, schools would rather spend the money on useful things like vending machines or athletic equipment. :roll:

Yes I know that is terrible that interscholastic and intramural sports exist in high school.

Blaming the schools is ignorant and will lead to a waste of tax dollars. Blame the mothers and fathers.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Afraid I have to agree with you, Partial, a lot of parents these days have simply dropped the word "NO" from their vocabulary, too afraid of harming the child's psyche, hurting their feelings, not wanting to guide these children properly. Open your eyes, you'll see it in every store or public place, every day.

[Kiwon]

Kiwon, it looks like on right about some things.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/04/17/skorea.vtech.ap/index.html

I still think South Korea is a national identity, however.

From Seattle:

Local Korean community apologetic, and fearful
They have mixed feelings over shooting

By JOHN IWASAKI
P-I REPORTER

He was one of more than 1.2 million people of Korean descent in the United States, a disturbed gunman on the other side of the country.

But Cho Seung-Hui's role in the slaughter at Virginia Tech reverberated Tuesday in the local Korean American community, with some members taking the crime personally and others fearful of a backlash.

State Sen. Paull Shin, D-Edmonds, apologized to fellow lawmakers and legislative staff members, first at a private prayer meeting, then in Senate chambers.

"It hurts me deeply, knowing what happened to Korea and how much the U.S. helped," said Shin, an orphan who was adopted by an American soldier after the Korean War. "This is not the way to pay back the blessings we received."

Although legislators told him he had no need to apologize, Shin, fighting his emotions, said he felt compelled to do so because of his acceptance in America and his leadership position in the Korean American community.

At the University of Washington, student leader Jihye Kim also shouldered responsibility.

"Personally, after hearing about the criminal's racial background, I felt as if I am the one who caused the tragedy," said Kim, president of the Korean Student Union. "I couldn't make eye contact with others. I greatly apologize for those who are closely related to the victims."

(Edit - end)
.................................................. ...........

While some Koreans here and in the States will not have any emotional connection to this tragedy the majority of people share the feelings of this Korean-American lawmaker and this female Korean student. Neither was involved in any way but they feel compelled to apologize anyway because the gunman was an ethnic Korean.

I, myself, received a text message and a phone call from Korean friends today apologizing to me for what this guy did. They expressed genuine shock, sadness, and embarrassment.

This may seem strange to us but it reflects the group consciousness that Koreans share along with demonstrating the significance of ethnicity for Koreans in defining themselves and their culture.

[MJZiggy]

It actually kinda bugs me that people who have absolutely no connection to this thing and who would never in their lives even consider thinking about what this guy did are shouldering responsibility for it.

There's no reason for it. This was an isolated incident involving a very sick individual and no one should bear responsibility for it but him. (Makes me wanna go hug a Korean)

[swede]

I agree with you Zig.

The South Koreans have been good friends and allies. They bear no collective responsibility for this young man's disturbed actions.

There are mosques around the world that preach hatred and jihad against the United States. That particular subculture of the Muslim faith does bear collective responsibility for attacks against us made in the name of Muhammed.

There was no such dynamic at work here. In fact, the things I have been reading about the young man suggest that he had rather serious mental health issues and had no agenda other than an amorphous rage that grew until he had this horrific psychotic break.

The apologetic sentiments from South Koreans and people of South Korean ancestry seemed very genuine to me and reflect the goodness of those people.
But, as you say, Zig. This was certainly not something for which any South Korean bears any responsibility.

[Joemailman]

The issue of gun control as it relates to this incident is likely to shift to the question of why the shooter was able to legally purchase guns even though he had been declared mentally ill in 2005. The way in which this country deals deals with mentally ill people is also likely to become an issue.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/18/vtech.shooting/index.html

[BallHawk]

This is gonna have an affect on the election.

[Kiwon]

It's becoming clear that Cho, Sueng-Hui was severely mentally ill and that he would have had trouble either in the U.S. or in Korea.

The truth is that he would have received more acceptance and had access to a stronger and better developed mental health system in the U.S. than he would have in Korea and theoretically received more help.

Another difficult reality is that he would not have had any access to guns in Korea to strike out at society as he did in the U.S.

The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution protects "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." This is a key liberty afforded to all Americans and should be protected. The difficulty with such freedoms is denying them to the criminal and the mentally ill. The tragedy in West Virginia should prompt a reexamination over how someone who had contact with the mental health system and had been considered capable of violence and "suicidal" could have legally acquired these weapons (if that's what he did).

[Kiwon]

Oh my gosh, I just saw the photos and stuff this guy sent to NBC News after the first killings and before the second deadly spree. They really inspire anger at this killer and his brazenness.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776

I'm afraid this is going to motivate some to retaliate against Koreans or other Asians in the U.S. I hate to say this but this is my prediction.

Another disturbing part of this is that this guy's photos will be downloaded and he will be idolized by other anti-social types.

Really bad news......

[Freak Out]

The US Health/Mental Health care system makes it as difficult as possible to get good care while we make it very easy to get the weapons we need to kill each other.

[BallHawk]

Just saw the video he sent to NBC on yahoo.com. This guy was one f*cked up kid.

He says "You just love crucifying me. You put cancer in my head, tortured my heart, and raped my soul..

He goes on to say, "I didn't have to do this, I could of ran. But I'm doing this for my children, my brothers, and all the innocents that you fucked."

He also says, "You thought I would be just one guy. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire a generation to fight back, the weak and defenseless.

[BallHawk]

This kid fancies himself as a martyr, dying to hope to inspire a generation of violence and bloodshed. Unfortunately, I think he will accomplish his goal. This will appeal to those who feel like him. Kids that have been ostracized and exiled from society. I pray this doesn't happen, but things like this don't go unnoticed.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Don't give the psycho that much credit. This is going to inspire anything. It may spawn a copycat or two--like other serial killers have. Other than that, he's just a crazy fuck. I don't think people are going to go after Asians or Asian-Americans. Might be an isolated incident here and there from people who were looking for something like this, but no more. The reaction from the Korean community may, in fact, help people realize what kind of people they are.

[oregonpackfan]

I agree with you Zig.

The South Koreans have been good friends and allies. They bear no collective responsibility for this young man's disturbed actions.

There are mosques around the world that preach hatred and jihad against the United States. That particular subculture of the Muslim faith does bear collective responsibility for attacks against us made in the name of Muhammed.

There was no such dynamic at work here. In fact, the things I have been reading about the young man suggest that he had rather serious mental health issues and had no agenda other than an amorphous rage that grew until he had this horrific psychotic break.

I agree with you and MJZiggy.

Cho's race and/or ancestry has nothing to do with this tragic incident. He was just one very deranged young man.

It is unfortunate the Korean-American community feels an obligation to apologize to the rest of the American society for this. Cho could have easily been Caucasion, African-American, Latino, or some other minority group member.



The apologetic sentiments from South Koreans and people of South Korean ancestry seemed very genuine to me and reflect the goodness of those people.
But, as you say, Zig. This was certainly not something for which any South Korean bears any responsibility.

[Joemailman]

News has been pretty grim today. This is a better story.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070418.SHOOTISRAEL18/TPStory/TPInternational/America/

VIRGINIA TECH SHOOTINGS
Cho Seung-Hui was a dark and demented student. Liviu Librescu survived the Holocaust and tyranny. They will be remembered for their final moments.
THE HERO: 'He had no fear. Not in doing the right thing'

SONIA VERMA

Special to The Globe and Mail

JERUSALEM -- As a child, Liviu Librescu survived the Holocaust. As an adult, he escaped Romania's Communist rule.

But it was only in the last moments of his life that the Israeli professor was recognized as a hero, sacrificing himself to save his students -- using his body to block the door of his engineering classroom as Cho Seung-Hui tried to shoot his way inside.

"He showed that kind of bravery throughout his life, so it doesn't surprise me at all," his son, Joe Librescu, reflected.

"He had no fear. Not in doing the right thing, especially with regards to his work and his students," he said from his home in Ranana, a sleepy suburb of Tel Aviv.

Yesterday, the Librescu family was finalizing funeral arrangements for their 76-year old father, a mechanical engineering professor and well-regarded scientist who refused to retire after 20 years of teaching at Virginia Polytechnic Institute.

"He could never concede retirement. He loved his work too much. He was too passionate to quit," his son said.

Joe and his brother Araya spent yesterday morning sifting through e-mails sent from students of their father, painstakingly piecing together the final moments of his life.

It was 9 a.m. on Monday morning. Prof. Librescu was in his second-floor classroom in Virginia Tech's Norris Hall, launching into a lecture on solid mathematics.

A series of shots rang out from an adjoining classroom, followed by screams. Prof. Librescu rushed to the door and held it shut. His engineering students dived for cover behind their desks.

As the sound of gunfire drew closer, his students searched for a way out. Some climbed on desks, pulling down the window screens to kick out the glass, jumping three metres to the bushes below.

In a letter addressed to Prof. Librescu's wife Marlena, one student described how he climbed out the window, but paused on the ledge to look back.

"I saw your husband still standing there. He was holding the door closed and looking over his shoulder to make sure everybody else was safe. It was the bravest thing I have ever seen and I will always remember his courage," the student wrote.

Another simply wrote: "I think he saved my life."

Prof. Librescu was fatally shot, and died on his classroom floor. But by the time the gunman managed to get inside, most of his students had escaped to safety.

His sons described their father's final act of bravery as an honourable end to a courageous life.

Prof. Librescu was born and raised in Romania.

During the Second World War, his family was interned in Transnistria, at a labour camp set up by the Romanian government with the help of Nazi Germany to exterminate the Roma people and Jews.

Prof. Librescu was 10 at the time -- among 200,000 people crowded into crude barracks without running water, electricity or latrines. His family was later deported to a central ghetto in the city of Focsani.

"That experience helped shape his character.

"He saw people who gave their lives for others in difficult times. He knew what it meant to help others," said his son, Joe.

Mr. Librescu survived, and eventually married Marlena, another Holocaust survivor.

He studied in Bucharest, earning his doctorate and gaining a reputation as an accomplished scientist.

In 1978, the couple immigrated to Israel over objections from Romania's Communist regime. He was granted permission to leave only after Menachem Begin, the Israeli prime minister, personally appealed to Nicolae Ceaucescu, the Romanian president.

In 1984, he moved with his wife to Virginia for his sabbatical, and chose to stay.

But he returned to Israel frequently for family occasions and holidays.

Yesterday, his two sons who live here recalled their father's connection to the country.

"He always considered himself as an Israeli. He saw himself as an ambassador to the United States, but an Israeli at heart," Joe said.

His body will be flown to Israel for a family burial some time next week.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070418.SHOOTISRAEL18/TPStory/TPInternational/America/

[packers11]

it was just on the news...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/default.cdnx/id/18179431/displaymode/1157

Here goes the violent video game thing...

I play that game "counter-strike"... I don't see myself doing any of this shit...

I think he was just extremely bullied / psychotic....

[digitaldean]

[quote="Joemailman"]News has been pretty grim today. This is a better story.

What selflessness.

With what this man endured to give himself up to save others epitomizes his true character.

A rare individual indeed.

[MJZiggy]

[quote=Joemailman]News has been pretty grim today. This is a better story.

What selflessness.

With what this man endured to give himself up to save others epitomizes his true character.

A rare individual indeed.

If I could get away with hearing nothing more of the sicko that did this and read only about these kinds of people, I'd like it a whole lot more. I don't want to know his name or see his pictures or hear his voice or read his writing or worry about what might have driven him. I feel for his family who must be crushed considering that total strangers are apologizing for what he did. I feel for the victims and their families. I'd love to hear their stories. Not his.

[the_idle_threat]

If I could get away with hearing nothing more of the sicko that did this and read only about these kinds of people, I'd like it a whole lot more. I don't want to know his name or see his pictures or hear his voice or read his writing or worry about what might have driven him. I feel for his family who must be crushed considering that total strangers are apologizing for what he did. I feel for the victims and their families. I'd love to hear their stories. Not his.

I agree completely. :idea:

[retailguy]

This is gonna have an affect on the election.

At this point, it'll have ZERO effect on the election. Once this nutcase sent out his video, it became crystal clear to any American voter just what a nutcase he really is.

I have seen a few pictures of the whole video, but have turned the sound down... I just don't need to pollute my brain with this crap.

May he burn in hell.

[rdanomly]

After watching little portions of his videos you can see a passion and intensity to him. It makes me wonder what he could have achieved if he were to take that energy & put it towards something productive. Such a horrible waste of lives.

[LL2]

Just saw the video he sent to NBC on yahoo.com. This guy was one f*cked up kid.

He says "You just love crucifying me. You put cancer in my head, tortured my heart, and raped my soul..

He goes on to say, "I didn't have to do this, I could of ran. But I'm doing this for my children, my brothers, and all the innocents that you fucked."

He also says, "You thought I would be just one guy. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire a generation to fight back, the weak and defenseless.

I wonder what made him feel like he was "crucified" and "tortured." He certainly didn't die like Jesus. Jesus didn't killed 30 innocent people either in cold blood. He was definitely angry at wealthy people, and that makes me wonder if his parents didn't make much and growing up he resented and envied kids that had "things" that he didn't. It was this envy that turned to hatred and self pity that eventually built up into who he was in the months before he killed. It sure would've helped if someone could've counseled this deep rooted anger out of him.

[Jimx29]

I'm finding myself being somewhat fascinated by the videos. I'm very curious to see what makes a person like that snap....and I wanna make my own judgments about it, not have the talking heads at FOX, CNN, etc.... telling me how he became what he did.
I'm guessing that some day all the videos and the transcript(s) will get either released, or leaked onto the web, and i'm sure i'll be all over that too. :huh:

[Merlin]

The media royally screwed up once again. By showing his pictures, his writings and his videos, they gave him everything he wanted. Way to make him be the spotlight. Why not show us the lives of the 32 people he murdered? Why not focus on what was taken from us? Instead the media gives this guy validation for what he did.

Awhile back, professional sports stopped televising the idiots who run onto the field. Why? So they wouldn't get the attention.

It's one thing to have experts disseminate the information and then give us their take on the guy. It's entirely another to listen to any unqualified talking head speak as if they are an expert while they show this shit. We may want to know everything but this wasn't the way to do it. We won't hear about the victims until their funerals, if even then.

What's more important? Knowing the people he murdered or the obvious that the guy was a nutball?

[Kiwon]

You hit the nail on the head, Merlin.

In my opinion, NBC did more harm than good when they decided to immediately air the material. A real classy Al-Jazeera move.

[K-town]

Maybe its just the cowboy in me, but my immediate thoughts would be if I charge and leap at this guy he isn't going to be able to get a good shot on me, and if he does it will likely only be one. If thats how god has deemed me to die, than I would let fate run its course.

Don't know how much of a "cowboy" I would be in that situation, but...
Judging from what I've seen from the Columbine coverage, plus what happened here in K-town some years back, YOU are in charge of saving your own life. The authorities seem quite willing to "contain the situation", thus leaving the hostages at the mercy of the gunmen/psychos for extended periods of time. In both instances, while SWAT and the hostage negotiators were busy setting up and attempting to make contact, people were dying.

If you're going to die anyway waiting for SWAT to take their requisite 2-4 hours to get into action, maybe it's better to go down fighting.
Or find a really, REALLY good hiding spot.

[MJZiggy]

I'll go with that second option...

[mraynrand]

Another difficult reality is that he would not have had any access to guns in Korea to strike out at society as he did in the U.S.


Is this really true? What are the laws like and how much gun crime happens there?

The reality here is that if the guy wanted guns, and could only get them illegally, he'd easily be able to get them in America. From what I know of Korea, the culture itself is the reason there is less gun crime. If Cho fuck dong hadn't been able to get his hands on a gun, it's likely the number dead would have been less, but he probably would have eventually killed someone. Gun laws are not a panacea - there are plenty of decent (and impartial) studies showing that presence of conceal-carry laws correlate with reduced shooting deaths. If people want to kill one another they usually can find a way.

I'm with Partial, though. I'd be casting my lot in with the 75 year old guy trying to kick the shit out of that punk, if at all possible. Where were the MEN?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Didn't some nutcase in Korea shoot ~55 people awhile back--even though there is gun control in Korea?

As much as people can scream for gun control because of this, this case is an argument for more conceal and carry. It's a deterent to criminals, and this guy might have been shot before he could kill 32 people if somebody else had a gun.

[Kiwon]

Another difficult reality is that he would not have had any access to guns in Korea to strike out at society as he did in the U.S.


Is this really true? What are the laws like and how much gun crime happens there?

The only people with guns are the police and the army (and maybe a few mafia types).

There are no gun crimes because no one has access to guns. There's even been concern over the availability of air pistols. Every once in a while there will be a shooting on an army base when someone gets bullied too much, but that about it.

1998-2000 statistics:

Manslaughters: 3,737
(per capita): 0.0768282 per 1,000 people
Murders: 955
(per capita): 0.0196336 per 1,000 people

When someone is murdered it is usually with a knife or brute force.

That being said, Korea didn't have its first democratic government until 1997 and America has never had a coup d'etat. The 2nd Amendment works to check the power of the federal government.

[Scott Campbell]

Judging from what I've seen from the Columbine coverage, plus what happened here in K-town some years back, YOU are in charge of saving your own life. The authorities seem quite willing to "contain the situation", thus leaving the hostages at the mercy of the gunmen/psychos for extended periods of time. In both instances, while SWAT and the hostage negotiators were busy setting up and attempting to make contact, people were dying.

That used to be true everywhere, but not so in SLC anymore. 2 months ago a 18 year old shooter entered a shopping mall on a similar rampage. SWAT took him out 6 minutes after the initial 911 call. He killed 5 people and wounded a bunch of others, but if it weren't for the quick reaction and heroism of the police, the death toll could have easily reached or exceeded the Virginia Tech shootings.

There are SWAT teams from all over the country coming here to study how the police here did it. The thinking has shifted from setting up a perimeter and waiting things out to take the shooter(s) out before they can kill scores of unarmed victims.

[HarveyWallbangers]

1998-2000 statistics:

Manslaughters: 3,737
(per capita): 0.0768282 per 1,000 people
Murders: 955
(per capita): 0.0196336 per 1,000 people

When someone is murdered it is usually with a knife or brute force.

That being said, Korea didn't have its first democratic government until 1997 and America has never had a coup d'etat. The 2nd Amendment works to check the power of the federal government.

It's not necessarily a matter of guns = more murders. You can look at North Dakota, Montana, etc. They have high percentage of gun ownerships and rarely have murders. They year I graduated from high school, North Dakota had 1 murder. I know the state only has 600,000-700,000 people, but that's a pretty miniscule murder rate. Why is that? To me, it's a societal issue. We have to fix the culture that breeds these types of acts. Sometimes, a guy is just a nutcase though, and there's little you can do about it. Do we really think a nutcase like this would have lived a law-abiding, non-murderous life if there weren't guns out there? Guns aren't the only weapons out there. This guy could have killed any other ways--with a knife, serial killer style--picking off victims one-by-one, started a fire in a populated place, built a bomb, etc. Getting rid of legally owned guns isn't going to get rid of guns in the hands of criminals either.

[K-town]

Judging from what I've seen from the Columbine coverage, plus what happened here in K-town some years back, YOU are in charge of saving your own life. The authorities seem quite willing to "contain the situation", thus leaving the hostages at the mercy of the gunmen/psychos for extended periods of time. In both instances, while SWAT and the hostage negotiators were busy setting up and attempting to make contact, people were dying.

That used to be true everywhere, but not so in SLC anymore. 2 months ago a 18 year old shooter entered a shopping mall on a similar rampage. SWAT took him out 6 minutes after the initial 911 call. He killed 5 people and wounded a bunch of others, but if it weren't for the quick reaction and heroism of the police, the death toll could have easily reached or exceeded the Virginia Tech shootings.

There are SWAT teams from all over the country coming here to study how the police here did it. The thinking has shifted from setting up a perimeter and waiting things out to take the shooter(s) out before they can kill scores of unarmed victims.

That is really good news, as far as SLC realizing that the stakes and rules of the game have changed. Hope all police forces learn the concept that immediate action more often than not saves lives. Thanks for the update, SC.

[Badgepack]

After what happened this week, I thinking of asking my college attending daughters for a schedule that lets me know when their classes are and what are the names of the buildings that they are in at that time.

I can't image what parents of VT students went thru on Monday.

It's a sad world we live in sometimes.

Talking to our oldest child over Christmas break, she wondered if she wants to raise kids in the world today. How sad, but I can see her point.

[MJZiggy]

It's a sad world we live in sometimes.

Talking to our oldest child over Christmas break, she wondered if she wants to raise kids in the world today. How sad, but I can see her point.

But people have been saying that for generations...

[esoxx]

Yeah, I'm sure when Hitler was running amok and there were mass exterminations of a certain ethnic group of people that the regular folks out there didn't think the world was screwed up, b/c it was.

There's nutjobs and heinous acts commited throughout history. We just know about every little detail now with internet and mass media coverage. The inherent evil in some humans is not a recent event.

[Kiwon]

Where were the MEN?

One answer: Many of the best of them are overseas serving their country in a voluntary military.

Another answer: "When Cho killed 32 people at Virginia Tech, the horrific slaughter revealed not only the poisons lurking in popular culture but the crisis of young males in a feminised society, says Sarah Baxter"

(edit)

"In a twist to the debate on masculinity, some commentators have complained that the terrified Virginia Tech students were no Rambos when it came to defending themselves. John Derbyshire, a right-wing British writer based in America, wondered, “Why didn’t anyone rush the guy? Yes, I know it is easy to say these things, but didn’t the heroes of Flight 93 teach us anything?” — a reference to the passengers fighting back in the 9/11 hijacked plane.

The columnist Mark Steyn took up the theme with an essay on the “culture of passivity” that is overtaking America. In his view, students are becoming so infantilised that they have lost their capacity to take responsibility.

“In a horrible world, there may come moments when you have to choose between protecting yourself and others,” he believes. “It is a poor reflection on us that in those critical first seconds where one has to make a decision, only an elderly Holocaust survivor understood instinctively the obligation to act.”

Librescu, 75, forced his body against the door to prevent Cho storming his classroom, gaining time for some of his students to escape. He was shot dead. But there were younger heroes, too, such as Derek O’Dell, who was shot in the arm but managed to wedge his foot in the door and prevent Cho from re-entering the classroom.

Another student, realising that a friend was playing dead, was said to have deliberately drawn Cho’s attention to himself as the gunman searched the room for survivors — and sacrificed his own life."

(edit - end)

Full story - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1686784.ece

My opinion: I can't find fault with anyone. While there is some truth in the two above answers, I am familiar with contingency training and the basic flight-or-fight response is fairly engrained.

Cho had planned what he was going to do and how he was going to do it. I suspect that the combination of surprise, power of automatic weapons, and shock at the bloodshed practically paralyzed many victims, especially at the first classroom.

The heroes in this case weren't able to stop him but they were able to save lives by blocking the doors with their bodies as he roamed the hallways. It takes great courage to brace yourself against a wooden door to give others the opportunity to escape when you know that there's a killer coming your way.

:evil: Another thought: I am still furious with the media's treatment of this. To fulfill this killer's wishes and give him a platform for his rantings so soon after the event (even before any victims were buried) is unconscionable. Grieving families won't see or hear their loved ones again but they had to suffer through the indignity of seeing the face and hearing the voice of the person who killed their family member just 2 days prior. No real public interest was served. It was just a ratings ploy and a despicable one at that. :evil:

[Joemailman]

The comparison of the actions of the students in this case to the actions on Flight 93 in unfair. These students were faced with a guy firing 2 semi-automatic handguns, not a bunch of guys carrying box cutters. The heroes of Flight 93 were able to plan their assault. The students of Virginia Tech had no such chance.

[mraynrand]

Thanks for the responses Kiwon, Joe. My comment was more frustration than anything else. As a detached observer all I know is I'm pretty sure I'd rather be dead than alive, knowing I hadn't done something to try to prevent the guy from shooting helpless kids, especially young women. But in fairness, I know nothing of the exact circumstances. While I think my reaction would have been to toss books, computers, etc. at the guy and try to rush him maybe with a desk as a shield, if possible, who knows how it actually went down and whether people had any chance to react at all.
But because the old guy acted, it seems as though a bunch of guys, all choosing to attack cho, could have stopped him. I can't help but wonder if in a different era, with more aggressive males the norm, this might have happened. I didn't mean to pass any negative judgment on the kids though. Just putting myself in their place and wondering and hoping something could be done to exterminate the vermin.