the Aaron Kampman mold

[motife]

One recurring pattern I detect in the picks thus far are "man's man", "never takes a play off", "outstanding explosion", "tough player", "does extra film work", "lean, can easily add bulk to their frame", "outstanding special teams player", etc.

as mentioned earlier, Ted Thompson was TRASHED by the national media and local fanbase for "wasting" last years two 2nd round picks on Daryn Colledge and Greg Jennings, two complete unknowns, at least to mock drafts and media rankings. Both turned out to be as good or better than the more highly touted 1st rounders or the players the Packers "should have taken" who followed.

The attitude is reminiscent of Ted Thompson's description of Head Coach Mike McCarthy when he hired him, a no-nonsense "man's man".

[motife]

http://www.nationalchamps.net/2006/preview/pics/small/tennessee_justin_harrell_sm.jpg
Justin Harrell
Height: 6-4
Weight: 305
Position: Defensive Tackle
College: Tennessee

Has thick upper-body mass with a firm chest, shoulders and good arm-muscle definition. … Has big hips, thick thighs and calves and room on his frame to add at least another 20 pounds of bulk with no loss in quickness. … Quick and explosive off the snap; even though he was used mostly to occupy multiple blockers at the line of scrimmage, he does a good job of anchoring and clogging up the inside rush lanes. … Has outstanding weight-room strength and is starting to learn how to translate that to the football field (must keep his hands inside and active to get full value out of his punch). … Does an effective job of combining aggressiveness with strength to create an explosive surge off the snap. … Maintains a low center of gravity to fill the inside lanes. … Will make plays downfield and shows good urgency closing on the ball. … Lacks ideal instincts, but shows no hesitation getting to the ball once he locates it. … Leader-by-example type who proved his moxie by refusing surgery to play with a ruptured biceps vs. Florida in 2006. … Responsible, mature type who really embraced the leadership role thrust upon him as a senior. … Will duck his head at times coming off the ball, but has the leg drive and burst to gain advantage. … If he learns to anticipate the snap quicker, he has that natural burst needed to dominate at the line of scrimmage. … When he hunkers his pads down and drive his foot into the ground, he is very effective at containing inside run plays. … Has good change-of-direction agility and it is rare to see him exposed on the move. … If he learns to use his hands better to gain leverage, he could be very effective in attempts to stack and control. … Has the strength to split double teams, but must be conscious of using his hands. … Compensates for a lack of ideal timed speed by taking proper angles to gain position to make the tackle working down the line. … Difficult to handle in one-on-one situations; he will constantly battle until the whistle. … Delivers a punishing hand jolt as he slides down the line of scrimmage and has the balance to sidestep and slip past the blocker when bull rushing. … Still plays more on his raw ability, but shows quickness reacting to the running plays, where his lateral agility is shown while giving chase. … Not much of a pass rusher; he is used more in run containment, but shows effective rip and club moves in attempts to get penetration. … More of a push type of pass rusher, but has the strength to gain inside penetration and is decent trying to adjust on the move. … Won't get to the quarterback when taking a wide loop, but up the middle he closes quickly on the quarterback, showing the leg drive and burst to collapse the pocket (better getting to the passer from his inside alignment than on the edge). … When he extends his long arms, he does a nice job of keeping blockers off him (needs to do this with more consistency, though).

[The Leaper]

I don't mind Thompson's philosophy long-term. However, at some point, you need PLAYMAKERS. In three years, Thompson has yet to find anything remotely resembling a threat on offense...let alone a playmaker.

He also drove one (Javon Walker) out of town.

With that in mind, you have to ask yourself if he is capable of it at all. One draft...doesn't bother me. Two drafts...I see a trend, but I'll give him time. Three drafts...and after a season where his team was ATTROCIOUS in the red zone...I'm about to say Thompson is incapable of hitting on anything other than "high effort - marginal talent" guys.

Those don't win Super Bowls. Playmakers win Super Bowls.

[motife]

http://media.newsnetnebraska.org/vimages/shared/vnews/stories/45153919cf9e2-24-1.jpg
Brandon Jackson
Height: 5-10
Weight: 210 Position: Running Back
College: Nebraska

Has a compact, well-defined frame with good chest development, thick thighs and calves and deceptive burst to get out on the perimeter … Cuts sharply and changes directions suddenly … Makes quick decisions on the move, showing the field vision to locate soft areas on the field … Consistent in finding the cut-back lanes and changes direction well, showing the quick feet to side-step trash and break into the second level … Picks up defensive coverage well and is able to see the small cracks and explode through the holes … Even when he doesn't have the luxury of open lanes, he is capable of sinking his pads, redirecting and bouncing wide … Better when working along the perimeter, as he needs room to shift, and displays the balance and body control, along with forward lean, to pick up valid yardage after the initial hit … Aggressive inside runner with the weaving ability to pick-and-slide through traffic, doing a nice job of maintaining balance running through the pile and will keep his feet on the move … When he bounces to the outside, he can generate that accelerated second gear to separate from defenders upfield … Releases off the snap and gets into his routes smoothly in passing situations, showing marked improvement fielding the ball outside the framewor … Falls forward with good body lean and shows a good slide step to make the initial tackler miss … Can get to the corner, cut and break free down the sideline, building to top speed nicely … Runs at the low pad level you look for in a back (doesn't have to gear down to shift) … Has enough valid speed to be split wide in passing situations and is quite effective on swing routes … Lacks pop in his hips, but will face up as a blocker … Showed better patience waiting for his line to create rush lanes in 2006 than he did in the past … Shows no hesitation attacking the crease once he locates it, and has the field intelligence to avoid running into spots … Could use more upper body power, but can deliver a good stiff arm and has the proper pad level to bounce off tackles … Won't explode into tacklers, but has the leg drive to move the pile … One of his better assets is his ability to plant, drive and redirect, showing ease of movement to get past the second level … Has good hip swerve, head fakes and spin moves to set up and elude single tacklers … Knows how to shield the ball from defenders when working in the short-area passing game and has become a proficient underneath receiver due to his natural hands and ability to locate the soft areas in the zone … Can also provide emergency duty as a kickoff returner.

[mraynrand]

I thought this thread was going to be about somthing green, growing on A Kampman.

[motife]

http://media.abqtrib.com/albq/content/img/photos/2006/12/23/web_lobos.jpg

James Jones
Height: 6-1
Weight: 207 Position: Wide Receiver
College: San Jose State

The consummate team player, the coaching staff took full advantage of Jones' athletic ability and versatility in 2006. He not only went on to lead the team in receptions, but he also showed a strong throwing arm for the option pass, natural hands to handle punt-return duties and an ability to keep the defenses honest by getting good yardage on the reverse. He went on to score by catching, running and throwing the ball during his final year.

Solidly built athlete with a lean, yet defined frame, showing good upper body muscle definition, long arms and large, soft hands … Lacks explosion off the snap but does a good job of accelerating throughout his route … Can fill in as a long snapper in an emergency … Runs with good balance and shows above average hand/eye coordination … Can make the tough catches in traffic and then run around defenders with the ball … Has a smooth, gliding running motion, but does not generate an explosive pull-away burst … Does a nice job of scanning the field to find the open area … Uses his hands well to get a push off the defender up field … Will extend and grab for the ball, showing consistent hand skills … Fights for the ball in traffic, generally coming up with it due to his determined attitude and leaping ability … Has the body control and timing on his leaps to compete for the ball at its high point … Best when utilized on hitches as he has the strength to turn a short toss into valid yardage … Makes good body adjustments tracking the ball in flight … Fluid in and out of his breaks and is alert to coverages, settling into the field's soft areas nicely … Shows good urgency getting down field as the gunner on the coverage units.

[motife]

http://media.scout.com/media/image/35/359600.jpg
Aaron Rouse
Height: 6-4
Weight: 225
Position: Strong Safety
College: Virginia Tech

Powerfully built with good upper body muscle definition, tight abdomen, big bubble, thick thighs and calves, long limbs and exceptional timed speed … More of an athlete than a football player, but shows good physicality in his play … Displays loose hips that allow him to smoothly transition out of his backpedal with no wasted motion … Has excellent leaping ability, getting a quick rise while making good body adjustments to get to the ball at its high point … Very aggressive tackler, but needs to play with better control, as he will get reckless and out-run the plays at times … Takes plays from the chalkboard to the playing field with no problems … Vocal leader of the secondary who does a nice job of making adjustments and calls … Responds well to hard coaching and plays with a line-backer's mentality … Shows good ball anticipation skills and has that explosive burst to get to the play in an instant … Has the vision to frame the receiver and quarterback and showed improvement in not biting on pump fakes … Can locate the ball in a crowd and has a good feel for taking proper angles to the ball in plays in front of him (just adequate with his back to the ball) … Has the fluid hips and quick feet to match up with any receiver, and looks natural in his turn-and-run motion, doing a good job of cutting off the inside routes … Will generally mirror the receiver throughout the route and shows the nimble feet to turn fluidly out of his pedal … Has a good feel for the receiver in his zone and gets a quick jump on the ball … Shows the burst to close and fill the gaps in run force (made 40 of his 59 plays against the run in 2006) … Keeps his feet when planting and driving, showing the second gear and burst to shadow and trail the receiver working underneath … Knows how to use his long arms to reach around or over the receiver to deflect the pass … Will not give up on plays and has the lateral range to fly to the perimeters … Shows very good vision eying the backfield and is alert to blocking schemes when stepping up inside the box … Glides up and down hill with good urgency and has the body control to shoot out of his breaks with no wasted motion … Physical between-the-tackles player who gets off blocks well when he keeps his hands inside his framework … Will torque and twist his frame to compete for jump balls (has track experience to rise quickly) … Catches outside his frame, but has not had many opportunities to make the interception (used more in run force as a senior than in the deep zone) … Hits with authority, showing the classic wrap-up technique and pop on contact to get the ball carrier down … Is a good run force safety due to his explosive closing burst and toughness making open-field plays … Hits with authority, putting full force behind his tackles and showed in 2006 that he has improved that technique, doing a much better job of attacking the ball carrier's outside leg to impede forward progress than he did earlier in his career … Not used much on the blitz, but has the quickness to surprise a lethargic offensive lineman coming off the edge … Can form up and maintain balance when striking.

[motife]

http://images.nfl.com/images/draft/2007/mugs/barbre_allen.jpg
Allen Barbre
Height: 6-4
Weight: 300
Position: Offensive Tackle/Guard
College: Missouri Southern State
Barbre might have toiled in relative anonymity during his career with the Lions, but opposing defensive ends, defensive coordinators and professional scouts were well aware of his outstanding quickness and blocking skills. The four-year starter not only matched up and contained the opposition's best pass rusher each week, but he was also an outstanding gunner on special teams, leading the punt coverage unit in 2006.

Has a developing frame with room to add at least another 15 pounds of bulk with no loss in his impressive quickness … Has a thick upper body, with broad shoulders, thick calves, solid midsection, long arms, large hands, big bubble and natural strength … Comes out of his stance with outstanding explosion to shock a lethargic defender … Has the loose hips to change direction and plays … Generates good force behind his hand punch to deliver pop on contact … Hard worker who might need several extra reps to retain plays, but spends extra hours in the film room watching tapes and in the weight room improving his overall strength … Can get to the second level quickly to cut or wall off, but needs to break down better and play under control … When he gets his hands into an opponent, he has the raw power to pull, jerk, lock on and drag down … Rolls his hips well to put more force behind his blocks working in-line … Is quick to react to movement and does a good job of shuffling his feet to mirror … Takes the defensive lineman where he wants to go and uses that momentum to wash out his opponent (needs to stop waist bending, though) … Plays with a strong base and solid effort, showing good foot movement in his pass set … Does a better job landing when pulling or on screens, but needs to play with better control working in the second level … When he slides his feet in pass protection, he plays with a wide base, but must be more conscious of keeping his pads down (gets too high in his stance at times) … Showed much better hand placement in 2006, sustaining his blocks longer once he learned to keep his hands inside the frame … Can beat a defender off the edge with his explosive initial step … Generally takes good angles on the short pull and has the lateral mobility to work down the line … Does a nice job of communicating with his guard on double teams.

[mraynrand]

http://images.nfl.com/images/draft/2007/mugs/barbre_allen.jpg
Allen Barbre
Height: 6-4
Weight: 300
but he was also an outstanding gunner on special teams, leading the punt coverage unit in 2006.


A 300lb Gunner? Jeezus, I'd hate to see that guy coming at me at full speed.

[motife]

http://www.hokiesports.com/SIPhotos/fb2004/images/gt/d.Clowney.TD.jpg

David Clowney
Height: 6-0
Weight: 184 Position: Wide Receiver
College: Virginia Tech

Has a lean, angular frame with room to carry more bulk without it affecting his quickness … Has adequate power to fight through the jam and get into position to make the tough catches in a crowd … Not big, but is a slippery route runner whose suddenness causes defenders to struggle in attempts to get their hands on him in attempts to reroute … Blessed with the elusiveness and second gear to escape the initial tackler and separate in the open field … Shows fluid change of direction agility and despite his slight frame, he utilizes his explosion to defeat the jam … Does a nice job of gearing down and dropping his weight when working through a crowd … Has the plant-&-drive agility coming out of his breaks to get under the deep pass … Has the explosion to instantly gobble up the cushion and will win most foot races in the open … Sinks his pads with fluidness and is deceptive with his acceleration, as he looks effortless gliding towards the ball … Stays in control getting in and out of his break point … Has the quick vertical burst and lateral agility to come back for the poorly thrown pass … Shows good awareness for locating the soft spots in the zone, dropping his weight to settle underneath … Can generate that second gear needed to make the over-the-shoulder grabs … Uncovers and finds space when working in the short area and can drive off on the slant due to his quickness … Has large, natural hands and shows proper technique extending to catch outside his frame … Does not hesitate going for the ball in a crowd (but lacks the size and strength to dominate) … Shows a steady stride and burst throughout his route progression … Even with his blazing speed, he knows how to regulate so he does not outrun the deep throws … His hard planting agility lets him separate from the crowd after the catch … Has good pluck-&-snatch ability, doing a good job of making body adjustments to the ball in flight … Can get in and out of his break point, doing a nice job of driving off on slants when working in the short area … Keeps his feet working along the sidelines and will catch with his hands outside his framework … Very elusive runner once he reaches full stride … Has the crisp cutting agility that lets him come out of his breaks without having to throttle down … Adequate cut blocker who uses his hands well vs. second level defenders and despite a lack of bulk, he works hard to sustain, especially when blocking for the running game … Can add some value as an emergency kickoff returner.

[RashanGary]

Wow Mot!!

Great Thread.

[motife]

Thompson on his 2nd and 3rd round picks

"All 3 of these guys are tough. They're football guys. Football is really, REALLY important to them. They know what it is to be a part of a team."

I don't think anyone's ever said that about Randy Moss.

As much as I'm disappointed like everyone not to have Moss, the positives are more reps for the young guys, allowing development for a potential star like Donald Driver, Robert Brooks, Antonio Freeman, Edgar Bennett, Dorsey Levens, Mark Tauscher, Aaron Kampman, Cullen Jenkins or Ahman Green. And.. we don't expose our young guys to Moss, who consistently becomes indifferent in adversity.

[The Leaper]

As much as I'm disappointed like everyone not to have Moss, the positives are more reps for the young guys, allowing development for a potential star like Donald Driver, Robert Brooks, Antonio Freeman. And.. we don't expose our young guys to Moss, who consistently becomes indifferent in adversity.

I'm not sure how many reps guys will get...we had the most players under contract going into the free agency period, and now are throwing 11 more draft picks in the mix.

My guess is that at least 4 or 5 of these draft picks likely won't be on the final roster.

[Scott Campbell]

As much as I'm disappointed like everyone not to have Moss, the positives are more reps for the young guys, allowing development for a potential star like Donald Driver, Robert Brooks, Antonio Freeman. And.. we don't expose our young guys to Moss, who consistently becomes indifferent in adversity.

I'm not sure how many reps guys will get...we had the most players under contract going into the free agency period, and now are throwing 11 more draft picks in the mix.

My guess is that at least 4 or 5 of these draft picks likely won't be on the final roster.


11????

[GrnBay007]

I don't mind Thompson's philosophy long-term. However, at some point, you need PLAYMAKERS. In three years, Thompson has yet to find anything remotely resembling a threat on offense...let alone a playmaker.





I think Jennings was a threat before his injury...esp. for a rookie.

[The Leaper]

11????

Yes. We have 11 draft picks in 2007...unless TT trades down with one of the remaining 7th rounders.

:D

Bottom line...we don't have THAT many roster slots open. It will be very difficult for these 6th/7th rounders to make enough noise in camp to make the team over current players.

[The Leaper]

I think Jennings was a threat before his injury...esp. for a rookie.

He only scored 3 TDs last year...and his one big play was more due to Driver's blocking than Jennings' threatening ability.

Jennings should not be a starter right now. He eventually should develop into a capable starter. He's not a threat in terms of the red zone and putting points on the board, even with Favre at QB. What do you think will happen when Favre hangs them up?

[wist43]

Everybody can see that the Packers need help in certain areas - RB, TE, OT, CB, KR, and generally depth everywhere. Oh yeah, except DT, which was the deepest position on the team - and, of course, TT, just to "show us", takes a DT in the 1st round.

TT has told us over and over that he will never draft for need - and he's proving that. I think he's also proving my point of late - that he'll likely never be able to build a SB calibur team, b/c he's more interested in proving what a great talent evaluator he is, as opposed to being an all around GM that can build a Superbowl contender.

Jason Wilde went off on a rant on the radio this morning, accusing TT and the entire Packer front office of being condescending, and obsessed with proving how much smarter they are than everybody else - "we're smarterism". So at least I'm not the only one beginning to see TT as being rigid to the teams detriment.

I really don't know what to make of this 3rd draft. There are some players I like - Harrell, Jackson, Barbre, Clowney... but, is the team appreciably better after his draft???

[J-Rok]

As the Cubs fans say where I live--

Just wait for next year. We'll be sooooOooOOoo good.

[RashanGary]

Wist, is any team immediately, appreciably better with one draft?

The quality of a team is built over many off seasons.

I think we got better at DT, RB, WR

We got deeper at LB, OT

We got more competition at K

Our ST's should be improved.


Take the team after us and analyze their draft. You'll probably find that no team gets 3 rookie starters from one draft. I think you are the overly optimistic one if you acctually believed this draft was going to fill 4 starting holes.

[wist43]

Wist, is any team immediately, appreciably better with one draft?

The quality of a team is built over many off seasons.

I think we got better at DT, RB, WR

We got deeper at LB, OT

We got more competition at K

Our ST's should be improved.


Take the team after us and analyze their draft. You'll probably find that no team gets 3 rookie starters from one draft. I think you are the overly optimistic one if you acctually believed this draft was going to fill 4 starting holes.

Not buying it GJ...

Is taking a shot at Travarous Bain not at least as sensible as taking an ILB, that likely wouldn't even have been drafted, and then converting him to FB???

What sense does that make???

Yes the Packers are now better at a position that they were pretty good at to begin with - does that appreciably improve the team??? No.

I think Jackson is an upgrade at RB over Morency, but how in the world does Jones make you better at WR???

And Rouse??? He's got measurables, but everyone, and I mean everyone, readily admits that he was a putrid football player last year - had an absolutely horrible year. So Rouse makes the team - does that mean you cut your 6 round pick from last year, your 4th round pick from the year b/4, or you wasted a few million on Manuel (my personal preferrence).

Just about any way you slice it - TT seems to be running more of a revolving door of low end picks, than doing much to concentrate on shoring up weaknesses and bolstering strengths.

As I've said, I beginning to see TT as being so rigid, that I don't think him capable of putting together an entire roster that can carry us to a championship.

[ny10804]

TT has told us over and over that he will never draft for need - and he's proving that. I think he's also proving my point of late - that he'll likely never be able to build a SB calibur team, b/c he's more interested in proving what a great talent evaluator he is, as opposed to being an all around GM that can build a Superbowl contender.

Tell that to Shaun Alexander, Steve Hutchinson, Marcus Trufant, Jerramy Stevens, Koren Robinson, Marcus Tubbs, Darrell Jackson, Rocky Bernard, Josh Brown, Michael Boulware, Sean Locklear, and the rest of the players drafted by Ted that led the Seahawks to the '06 super bowl.

[run pMc]

Sorry Wist, I mostly agree with GJ

I do think we got deeper at the positions GJ named. I also think that the RB's drafted will provide good competition, but none will be able to replace Ahman alone, so we'll see a RB-by-committee.

The ILB to FB pick is a headscratcher, so I agree there...and i'm not overjoyed with the Rouse pick, but IMO he'll be the new special teams demon (sayonara Fergy) rather than Manuel's replacement. Underwood or Culver seem more likely to be the replacement.

Jones makes us better at WR if he plays better than most these NFLE guys who were on the roster last year and then invited back to camp. I don't think TT wanted to dip that deeply into the rookie FA/NFLE pool for WR's again, especially after seeing what the O looked like after losing KoRo, Fergy, and Jennings. It was painful to watch DD getting double and triple covered. I'm not giving up on Jones before he plays a down.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Is taking a shot at Travarous Bain not at least as sensible as taking an ILB, that likely wouldn't even have been drafted, and then converting him to FB???

Didn't Bain go undrafted? Man, that would have been a wasted draft pick. If they want him, they can go get him now.

[Partial]

GJ Detroit got significantly better because they added one player. Even if they only added that one player, they got significantly better.

The draft is all about hitting the home run even if the rest if crap.

It might work out better for your team if you take your first, draft it, and trade all your other picks for another first and second, or something to that effect.

[HarveyWallbangers]

We don't know if we hit a home run or not yet.

[MJZiggy]

We don't know if we hit a home run or not yet.

Very true. One could argue TT hit a home run with Murphy and look how that turned out.

[wist43]

Is taking a shot at Travarous Bain not at least as sensible as taking an ILB, that likely wouldn't even have been drafted, and then converting him to FB???

Didn't Bain go undrafted? Man, that would have been a wasted draft pick. If they want him, they can go get him now.

Bain or some other CB... what's the difference. Hall and Bishop, and then they signed two more LB's in FA???

Does that mean they cut White and Hodge??? And essentially admit to wasting last years 3rd, or do that admit to wasting this years 6th's... all three of them????!!!!!

Then TT goes off on the "positional competition" mantra... competition at some positions, and no competition at others???

Awesome depth at one position, and no depth at others??? Does building a team even enter into his equation??? I think the answer is obviously no.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Bain or some other CB... what's the difference. Hall and Bishop, and then they signed two more LB's in FA???

I didn't like the Bishop pick because he looks like Abdul Hodge on tape, and that's not a good thing after Hodge's rookie year. He's just too damned slow. They didn't really take back-to-back TEs because they are moving the first kid to FB. More than anything else, they think he has a chance to be really good on special teams. It looks like they felt that any corner they drafted then wouldn't be much better than a corner they could sign as a rookie FA.

[pbmax]

It is beyond me that people think DT was the deepest position, deep with what? Dreck?

Especially now that Jenkins is at end, the DTs in the 14th ranked run defense (by average per carry allowed, 4.1) cannot be characterized by depth.

They can most accurately be characterized by mediocrity.


Everybody can see that the Packers need help in certain areas - RB, TE, OT, CB, KR, and generally depth everywhere. Oh yeah, except DT, which was the deepest position on the team - and, of course, TT, just to "show us", takes a DT in the 1st round.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Awesome depth at one position, and no depth at others??? Does building a team even enter into his equation??? I think the answer is obviously no.

I wouldn't say depth is the problem. They have a bunch of young guys backing up at just about every position. The problem, I think, is that they can't be sure what they are going to get from those guys. Does Blackmon, Underwood, Culver, Hodge, Jolly, Holliday, Pope, Alcorn, these rookies, etc. have what it takes to take the leap up into solid NFL player? Who knows.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It is beyond me that people think DT was the deepest position, deep with what? Dreck?

I don't agree with that. I think our DL is solid. However, they didn't have a stud on the inside. If you think a guy can be a stud at DT, it's not a bad idea to take him. More than anything, having an absolute stud at DT will help your team more than anywhere else.

[pbmax]

I don't think you can call a D Line that is medicore defending the run solid.

Unless you think Poppinga was the source of the problem, and I am letting Barnett and Hawk off the hook here, then you have to look at the line.

Were there other positions of greater need? Yes.

But if the body drafted was the same as the the bodies you have what is the point of taking them in the first round?

I understand wist's points on the positions selected in the later rounds, but only time will tell if they upgrade anything or just replace a body with another cheaper/younger body.

Harrell's pick is justified if he is better than Corey Williams and can stay healthy. From what I have seen of the D Line, I am much more worried about the healthy part (which is the only part of the draft I find inexplicable).



It is beyond me that people think DT was the deepest position, deep with what? Dreck?

I don't agree with that. I think our DL is solid. However, they didn't have a stud on the inside. If you think a guy can be a stud at DT, it's not a bad idea to take him. More than anything, having an absolute stud at DT will help your team more than anywhere else.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't think you can call a D Line that is medicore defending the run solid.

Unless you think Poppinga was the source of the problem, and I am letting Barnett and Hawk off the hook here, then you have to look at the line.

Well, they struggled at times against the run, but I don't think it was a major weak spot. 4.1 isn't bad, and they faced some good RBs. I think, more than anything, having Jenkins as a full-time starter at RE will help that. Teams ran 2/3 of their outside runs at KGB. I consider Kampman, Pickett, and Jenkins all above average against the run. This guy should give them four guys on early downs that are good run defenders.

[wist43]

They improved by leaps and bounds when Jenkins took over for KGB...

As for the LB's - Poppinga is probably their best run defender. He slams it in there better than Hawk, and Barnett is a liability against the inside run. To the outside Barnett covers a lot of ground, but inside, it's not like he'll ever be a stack and shed guy.

The Packers seemed to get gouged on the ground a lot when they were in the nickel. Poppinga is out of the game, KBG at LDE... might as well put out a sign that says, "please run the ball down our throats".

[HarveyWallbangers]

Well, I disagree with your infatuation with Poppinga. I think he's okay as a run stopper, solid as a blitzer, and below average in coverage. I'm hopeful he'll improve with a year of experience and being a year removed from his injury. Time's running out though. He was old for a rookie coming in, so he should be in his prime this year.

[MasonCrosby]

i just think we need to generate more pressure on the qb, since we face guys like grossman, tavaris jackson, mcnabb and force them to make bad throws and not those amazing ones. harrell should help make and open up plays like that. now our secondary is weak but hopefully should improve with guys staying healthy...

[pbmax]

I agree with Kampman. Whatever doubts I had have been erased. He may not be a game changer, but he does everything else.

Pickett and Jenkins are OK. Pickett is not immovable like Jackson was, but he's younger and healthier. Jenkins is an improvement over KGB against the run, but my mother would be an improvement over KGB.

Last four games (with Jenkins playing end I believe)
San Fran: 19 runs for 139 yards
Detroit: 16 for 52
Minn: 20 for 72
Chicago 22 for 136

Gore had two big runs if memory servers before Jenkins went in. But I'd say its far from clear he solves the problem. He is an improvement.

[wist43]

I like Harrell as a player... if he can stay healthy (a big if) he immediately becomes our best DT.

Don't know that that will appreciably improve the team though... this team still has some huge holes on the roster, and TT is pretty oblivious to that.

I also like Jackson as a player, but it's not like he's a 20-25 carry per game guy... I like him better than Morency, but I think what we have there now is 3 third down backs.

The Packers have the worst RB situation in the league... and they're not much better at WR or TE.

After TT's third draft, I think we can start putting together a pattern... team building be damned; BPA no matter what; no moves to address needs - yes, it is possible to move up and down in the draft to address needs.

He seems to be shaping up as a 6-10 to 10-6 type of GM, more interested in proving how good a scout/talent evaluator he is, than in actually building a contender.

I know he'd argue that taking the BPA religiously year after year, will eventually add up to a contending team... 5 year plan??? Forget about that - TT is on the 15 year plan.

[Patler]

Are any of the RBs as good as Green in his prime? Probably (perhaps even positively) not, few teams had a back as good as Green in his prime, all-around. Can the backs on the roster be as good or better than Green would have been for GB in 2007 or 2008? I think they can. I don't think Green is finished just yet, but he also is not the back he once was.

Will Jones and Clowney improve the WR group? I think so, even if neither one starts. Jones looks like he could be a guy to go to in the red zone. Can fight for the ball and come up with it. Clowney seems to have speed that no one else on the roster has. Both look like they can improve weakness in the WR group while at the same time moving the likes of Martin, Holliday and others to fight it out for the 5th spot. Moving those guys down the depth chart makes the group better as a whole, because none of them should be #3 receivers.

Several look to be good ST guys, which can mean two things. STs will be better with a greater number of good performers, AND there will be no reason to keep Ferguson. In a way, guys like Rouse, Hall, Bishop and others, while filling the bottom of their position groups might make the WRs better because their ST play will decrease the need to keep a guy like Ferguson.

A rotation of Pickett, Williams and Harrell sounds better than Picket, Williams, and Cole or Jolly. Cole is what he is. The knock on Jolly in college was that he got in to position to make plays, but too often did not actually make them. I think we saw a bit of him "being close" last year too. Harrell reportedly made the plays when in position to do so, and will likely make the pass rush even better teaming at DT with Williams on third down situations. I know there is an injury concern with Harrell, but he apparently is healthy now, so who knows for sure?

Harris at TE is an interesting player. Might also be a guy that can help in the red zone and be a willing blocker.

Did GB land a super star? Probably not.

Did GB get better overall at WR and RB? Did they get better in the redzone? Did they get better on D against the run? I think the answer might be "yes" to all of those.

Did they get better against the pass? Probably a better pass rush, but not any help for an aging secondary from this draft. Hopefully Blackmon and Underwood will provide improvements from 2006.

There are possibilities at kick and punt returns coming from the draft class and returning from injuries. Hopefully one or more will distinguish themselves.

On paper (which is all we have to go on) in comparing 2007 to 2006, I do not see an area or position that has clearly gotten worse, and there are legitimate possibilities at improvements in the weaker areas coming from the draft, injury recoveries and improved play of younger players. Only time will tell for sure.

[Sparkey]

Everybody can see that the Packers need help in certain areas - RB, TE, OT, CB, KR, and generally depth everywhere. Oh yeah, except DT, which was the deepest position on the team - and, of course, TT, just to "show us", takes a DT in the 1st round.

TT has told us over and over that he will never draft for need - and he's proving that. I think he's also proving my point of late - that he'll likely never be able to build a SB calibur team, b/c he's more interested in proving what a great talent evaluator he is, as opposed to being an all around GM that can build a Superbowl contender.

Jason Wilde went off on a rant on the radio this morning, accusing TT and the entire Packer front office of being condescending, and obsessed with proving how much smarter they are than everybody else - "we're smarterism". So at least I'm not the only one beginning to see TT as being rigid to the teams detriment.

I really don't know what to make of this 3rd draft. There are some players I like - Harrell, Jackson, Barbre, Clowney... but, is the team appreciably better after his draft???

We will be able to tell when the game roll around. Fact is, our special teams has been pretty sad recently, mostly do to poor depth on the team. These last two drafts should appreciably help depth, thereby making special teams better. If a few of these guys turn into starters and we get one top caliber player, then it was a good draft.

[wist43]

I don't think they're better at RB, despite, as I said, the fact that I like Jackson.

To me, Jackson is more solidly built than Morency, and may be able to pound the rock a little more, but for the most part he strikes me as being just a slightly tougher version of Morency, i.e. the Packer now have 3 3rd down backs, and no legit starter.

Also, I don't think they're any better at WR... I'm faster than Jones - not only did he time slow, every "highlight" I saw of him showed him having to fight for the ball b/c he had no seperation from the DB. Scouting reports say he runs good routes - he's going to have to, b/c he certainly isn't going to scare anyone with his sun dial timed speed.

Like I said, I think TT drafted a couple of good player (maybe even a very good player in Harrell), a few intriguing prospects in Rouse, Clowney and Wynn... but really didn't do much to improve the team.

There was an article in the paper today talking about ST... it seems like TT started drafting players with ST's in mind in the 3rd round and out.

If he keeps trading down and drafting 85 guys every year, eventually you run into the situation where you're replacing last years draftees with this years... TT's drafts are getting laughable.

[Lurker64]

I'm not particularly worried about Harrell staying healthy. His most recent injury, a torn bicep is something that's almost always recovered from completely with surgery and rehab (Harrell had both and his rehab apparently went spectacularly.) It's apparently not uncommon for power-lifters to completely tear a bicep worse than Harrell did (so much that it curls up into a little ball and the arm is impossible to use) and then they get surgery and do rehab and they're back to power-lifting next year. Admittedly playing DT and power-lifting are different kinds of activities, but I'm willing to bet that the latter puts more strain on your biceps.

The other injuries are mainly broken ankle kinds of things, and those are just things that happen occasionally in the trenches when someone falls on you awkwardly. It's entirely possible that those are just bad luck. He managed to play the entire 2005 season without an ankle problem, so it's not chronically recurring.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't think they're better at RB, despite, as I said, the fact that I like Jackson.

To me, Jackson is more solidly built than Morency, and may be able to pound the rock a little more, but for the most part he strikes me as being just a slightly tougher version of Morency, i.e. the Packer now have 3 3rd down backs, and no legit starter.

Also, I don't think they're any better at WR... I'm faster than Jones - not only did he time slow, every "highlight" I saw of him showed him having to fight for the ball b/c he had no seperation from the DB. Scouting reports say he runs good routes - he's going to have to, b/c he certainly isn't going to scare anyone with his sun dial timed speed.

Like I said, I think TT drafted a couple of good player (maybe even a very good player in Harrell), a few intriguing prospects in Rouse, Clowney and Wynn... but really didn't do much to improve the team.

There was an article in the paper today talking about ST... it seems like TT started drafting players with ST's in mind in the 3rd round and out.

If he keeps trading down and drafting 85 guys every year, eventually you run into the situation where you're replacing last years draftees with this years... TT's drafts are getting laughable.

I don't think Morency and Jackson are similar backs. Jackson is a more compact, shifty in the hole, with good all around skills but isn't a home run threat. Morency seems to be quick and fast, better in space, not quite as compact, and not quite as shifty in the hole.

Bottom line is that we don't know anything about Jones. I read 4.6 originally, but then I've read that time was on a very slow field at his campus workout (wet grass), and there are also reports that say he runs 4.52--which is certainly fast enough. I don't think his highlights show a guy that's constantly covered--like the Sidney Rice highlights. On a positive note: he looks very strong (just looks like a good football player). He also looks very shifty. I think the Packers see Clowney as a down the field threat and Jones as a slot receiver.

[Patler]

Morrency and Jackson are not third down backs. In ability, they have what you want your starter to have. They may not have the durability/stamina of a so-called "feature back", but that doesn't make them third down backs in my opinion.

Combined, they easily can be as good, or maybe even better than Green was in 2006. He was nothing more than "OK" last year. I'm not suggesting he is washed up by any means. But if you are comparing the Packers potential in 2007 to what they were in 2006, RB is not an area that has clearly declined. Green himself may be better in 2007 than in 2006, and the Packers may have been able to "improve" in 2007 by having kept him.

[wist43]

Morrency and Jackson are not third down backs. In ability, they have what you want your starter to have. They may not have the durability/stamina of a so-called "feature back", but that doesn't make them third down backs in my opinion.

Combined, they easily can be as good, or maybe even better than Green was in 2006. He was nothing more than "OK" last year. I'm not suggesting he is washed up by any means. But if you are comparing the Packers potential in 2007 to what they were in 2006, RB is not an area that has clearly declined. Green himself may be better in 2007 than in 2006, and the Packers may have been able to "improve" in 2007 by having kept him.

If you look at the final numbers, no Green didn't have a great year... if you go back and look at the tapes - he had a great year.

I'm a big Green supporter... don't see how we're not going to miss him. To me, if Jackson doesn't prove to be the starter, and a move the chains/every down back, then they wasted the pick.

Like I said, I think we now have 3 3rd down backs, and no legit starter... I know most of you guys will disagree with that.

[Patler]

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge Ahman Green fan. Always have been. Very few backs combined speed, power and running attitude they way Green does. A very good blocker and a very good receiver, too.

Green ran hard last year. Continued to deliver blows at the end of runs. BUT, if you watch replays from last year, notice how many times he stumbled at the end of runs. That is an indicator of an aging back, who no longer has the quick feet he once had. His body gets ahead of his feet, and he loses his balance. He also missed more blocks by not getting set than I ever saw him miss before. Many of his drops on passes were because he didn't get his body and shoulders turned as he did in the past. Again, all iindicators of an aging back. The question for Green will be if he adapts to it. I have no doubt he will continue to be a decent back, and I really wanted him to stay in GB, but he is no longer as irreplaceable as he was a few years ago.

[motife]

Regarding Alan Barbre, James Campen said he offers a lot of versatility, because he can play either tackle or guard. His position in college was left tackle.

Ted Thompson said he was the fastest offensive lineman at the combine, but I wonder if someone can verify that.

And, as someone said, it's AMAZING that a 300 lb. tackle was the "gunner" on the punt team.

I'm wondering if this is a sign the Packers are NOT happy with Chad Clifton's run blocking. In the analysis at the end of the year, Clifton was not singled out, but if you read between the lines they didn't appear to be thrilled with him in the running game.

Barbre could play left tackle, according to Campen. The only other backup to Clifton I believe is Daryn Colledge, who appears to be unavailable generally as he's starting at guard.

I'm not sure Tony Moll will be capable of playing left tackle, and is more of a backup for Tauscher, Colledge and Spitz.

[Lurker64]

I'm wondering if this is a sign the Packers are NOT happy with Chad Clifton's run blocking. In the analysis at the end of the year, Clifton was not singled out, but if you read between the lines they didn't appear to be thrilled with him in the running game.

I believe Barbre was drafted to be Clifton's eventual replacement a few years down the line, and in the meantime provide much needed depth at tackle (since we have very little.)

I think it's more of acknowledgment that Clifton is getting up there in years and isn't the player he once was, so it's best to draft the guy's replacement before you absolutely need to. LTs that can start in a couple years can be found in the fourth round, but LTs that can start right away cost 1st round picks.

[pittstang5]

I'm wondering if this is a sign the Packers are NOT happy with Chad Clifton's run blocking. In the analysis at the end of the year, Clifton was not singled out, but if you read between the lines they didn't appear to be thrilled with him in the running game.

I believe Barbre was drafted to be Clifton's eventual replacement a few years down the line, and in the meantime provide much needed depth at tackle (since we have very little.)

I think it's more of acknowledgment that Clifton is getting up there in years and isn't the player he once was, so it's best to draft the guy's replacement before you absolutely need to. LTs that can start in a couple years can be found in the fourth round, but LTs that can start right away cost 1st round picks.

Those are my thoughts as well and I loved the Barbre pick. Barbre is Clifton's eventual replacement and adds depth to a thin area at tackle. I can't remember how many times in the past couple years, I've read about Clifton needing knee surgery or a scope - whatever, in the offseason. Sure, these might be minor problems, but Clifton isn't getting any younger and is eventually going to breakdown. Not too mention his contract will be up in a couple years. This gives Barbre time to develop behind him and if Cliffy hits the wall or TT doesn't want to pay to keep him, the Pack has their starter waiting in the wings. Hate to see it happen, I like Clifton - I think he had an ok year compared to last year, but depth is always a good thing.

[pbmax]

I don't think this blanket covers his approach. He had no depth (and no interior starters) on his O Line last year and had three lineman drafted. That doesn't sound like BPA to me.

This year, K Allen is leaving, Cole fights like hell while in tactical retreat and Jolly is a cipher (to me anyway). So even if you like the starters at the end of last year, you have no quality depth. Drafts Harrel.

At safety, he has three possibilities, Manuel with a full camp (hopefully), Culver and Underwood. Waits to third round to find a safety.

Its just possible he has a different list of needs than you do.

I won't pretend to know if Manuel's play suffered solely from the lack of playing experience with his backfield mates, but the coaches might. Unless its Schottenheimer, in which case he should be ignored.

Denver hasn't run their offense with a first round running back. If you don't need one, why pay the premium to move up?


I like Harrell as a player... if he can stay healthy (a big if) he immediately becomes our best DT.

Don't know that that will appreciably improve the team though... this team still has some huge holes on the roster, and TT is pretty oblivious to that.

I also like Jackson as a player, but it's not like he's a 20-25 carry per game guy... I like him better than Morency, but I think what we have there now is 3 third down backs.

The Packers have the worst RB situation in the league... and they're not much better at WR or TE.

After TT's third draft, I think we can start putting together a pattern... team building be damned; BPA no matter what; no moves to address needs - yes, it is possible to move up and down in the draft to address needs.

He seems to be shaping up as a 6-10 to 10-6 type of GM, more interested in proving how good a scout/talent evaluator he is, than in actually building a contender.

I know he'd argue that taking the BPA religiously year after year, will eventually add up to a contending team... 5 year plan??? Forget about that - TT is on the 15 year plan.