WOW! Bust out your hip waders!!!!!

[PackerBlues]

I think everyone would agree that TT is building for the future. He sure as hell hasnt done much to improve our offense to help us win now, that is for sure. So imagine my dismay when I read this JSonline quote from TT in regards to why he didnt make a trade with the Browns that would have given us their 1st round pick in 2008.

TT : "I believe in building and that sort of thing. But I think you have to try to help your team. Quite frankly, I'd rather help us now rather than help us a year from now."


I wonder if his nose got longer as he said that?

[BallHawk]

Tank, if you lost your password why didn't you just tell someone?

[Bretsky]

TT : "I believe in building and that sort of thing. But I think you have to try to help your team. Quite frankly, I'd rather help us now rather than help us a year from now."


I actually completely agree with the poster; he's building this team slowly for down the road. It amazes me he didn't take that deal.

He fell in love with Harrell; I hope he was right.

[Lurker64]

Thompson's in a no-win situation with the TT haters here.

If Ted takes Cleveland's offer, he gets lambasted for abandoning Favre and building for the future at the expense of the present.

If Ted doesn't take Cleveland's offer, he gets lambasted for not having the killer instinct and being conservative.

I don't see why the man even tries ;)

[Bretsky]

Thompson's in a no-win situation with the TT haters here.

If Ted takes Cleveland's offer, he gets lambasted for abandoning Favre and building for the future at the expense of the present.

If Ted doesn't take Cleveland's offer, he gets lambasted for not having the killer instinct and being conservative.

I don't see why the man even tries ;)

I'm not sure if I'm a TT hater; maybe I am.

I thought with the right moves we could make one more serious run at the Super Bowl while Favre was still around. That was my premisis.

He's broken my spirit there and now I'm just resigned to the fact that we are slowly going through a rebuilding process for down the road.

With that said I was all for that trade.

Still a lot of solid players on the board with the Browns pick and having their first round draft pick next year would have been incredible.

I see both sides on this though; I'm just surprised TT didn't pull the trigger on this one.

[the_idle_threat]

Tank, if you lost your password why didn't you just tell someone?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[PackerBlues]

TT : "I believe in building and that sort of thing. But I think you have to try to help your team. Quite frankly, I'd rather help us now rather than help us a year from now."


I am not saying that he should have made the trade, simply because I have no idea how strong next years draft will be. I am simply pointing out how much his comment reeks of hypocracy. One of the biggest arguments that the "TT lovers" keep throwing out, is the fact that TT is building for the future.

Somebody says "why didnt he go with an offensive player with the first pick"? A "TT" lover will quickly point out "he's building for the future."

Someone asks "why didnt he get Favre any help"? A "TT Lover" will be right there to tell you "because its not about winning now, our great god TT is building for the future.

So then, somebody points out that TT made a comment that reeks of Hypocracy, and some "TT Lover" calls him "Tank" (wtf, i am guessing its an inside joke that I should probably care less about) I think all of you "TT Lovers should either get up off your knees, or change your login names to something more appropriate........Like Bob, or Neil.

[Bretsky]

I don't think Ballhawk is a TT lover or hater; he was just trying to be funny.

I think all of your points are valid; I truly am surprised TT didn't make this deal; I think he fell in love with a player and was not interested in trading down unless he felt like he could get the guy.

[PackerBlues]

While I am sure that you are probably right Bretsky, I simply pointed out how little sense TT's comment made, when taken into context with his actions (or lack thereof) in free agency.

TT : "I believe in building and that sort of thing. But I think you have to try to help your team. Quite frankly, I'd rather help us now rather than help us a year from now."

Call me a TT Basher or "Tank" all you want. I just dont see an argument here though.

[MacCool606]

I think it was Peter King in yesterday's Monday Morning QB that detailed the negotiations between Jerry Jones and Phil Savage. Jones countered that the deal would have to be a 1st round pick next year and Cleveland's 2nd round pick this year.

I hate to think that Jones is a better GM than Thompson. But I would like to know why there was no counter (at least none was mentioned) from GB. For the 16th pick, maybe we could have gotten a 2nd and a 3rd or ? this year. Then with the extra 2nd, Dallas trades back up to get the guy they want, and they still have the additional 1st next year.

That is the way I thought a GM that is on top of his game should operate.

[MJZiggy]

I'm not sure if I'm a TT hater; maybe I am.



Yes. You are.


:P

[PackerBlues]

I know this is neither here nor there, but something else that kind of bothers me about this draft, is that I keep hearing about "character issues" and such when talking about some of our draft picks this year. I do understand that you can get great deals for these kind of players with "issues", Andre Rison and Terry Glenn come to mind right off the bat as guys that people feared would ruin our team. Yet they ended up being very productive players for the Pack.

So, that being said, Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but.....again, TT said he would rather help the team win now rather than a year from now. Ummmmm, Moss had character issues up the wazoo, but.......I think you can guess where i am going with this.

[MJZiggy]

If you look at most of the higher round picks, they're all being touted as very stand-up guys. I didn't hear anything about character until the end of the draft and the undrafteds. Who are the character issue guys?

[the_idle_threat]

I am a fan of TT, but "TT lover" is more than a wee bit overstating things. Anyhoo, your premise is flawed, PackerBlues.

I challenge you to find a TT supporter who defends TT's inaction in free agency this year by saying he is "just building for the future" and has no interest in improving the team now. You will not find it.

The people who are saying that are criticizing TT by assuming this is his motive, when in fact the assertion is pure bullshit and they know it.

TT backers have defended TT's FA "situation" by calling attention to how bad this free agent class was, and that with that bunch there was absolutely no guarantee that a free agent would be better than one of the many young guys on the roster. That, and this very ordinary bunch was demanding huge money that was unwarranted given their talent and production. Those are the arguments I've seen from people like myself who defended TT's actions, and lack thereof. There were no genuine arguments in TT's defense that TT has no interest in winning now.

This squares with my defense of the Harrell pick as well (although I'm on record as saying the injury issues scare me more than they appear to have scared TT). What rookie on offense could have come in and helped the team right away? There were no running backs at 16 that were clearly better tha the guy we got in round 2. Receivers and tight ends almost always take a year or two to develop. Greg Jennings was considered unusually NFL-ready as a rookie coming out of training camp last year, and look at how much impact he actually had.

Compare this with a defensive tackle, who should get into the rotation right away in game 1. If Harrell is anywhere as good as TT expects him to be, he will make a pretty good defense much better, right away in 2007. That suggests to me that TT wants to win now, rather than wait for an offensive prospect to blossom in 2008 or 2009.

[Rastak]

There were no running backs at 16 that were clearly better tha the guy we got in round 2. .


I think dishing that 2nd round pick for Turner would have made alot of sense.....

[wist43]

It's entirely possible to be a very good talent evaluator, and a poor GM at the same time.

I don't know that TT is a poor GM; over time, I actually think he'll be able to put a competitive team on the field year after year.

That said, I think it's a long shot to ever think that TT will be able to build a SB team. The one chance he took (Rodgers) was, or will prove to be, a mistake.

Beyond that, he is probably the most rigid guy on the planet, combined with his wildly annoying arrogance, leads me to believe that he'll always take good players, but they may not necessarily add up to a cohesive, championship calibur team.

Needs??? In TT's view, looking at needs is for the dumb and simple.

[Chubbyhubby]

Its obvious to me that TT has been drafting for the future. 3-5 years from now, He drafted HIS QB Aarron Rodgers, He is drafting for the Rodgers team. Not Favre's. You heard it here first : 2007-08 year will be Brett Favre's last year. TT hs made that very clear that Rodgers is HIS guy and the Packers have the attiude of winning later than now.

[Fritz]

TT : "I believe in building and that sort of thing. But I think you have to try to help your team. Quite frankly, I'd rather help us now rather than help us a year from now."


I am not saying that he should have made the trade, simply because I have no idea how strong next years draft will be. I am simply pointing out how much his comment reeks of hypocracy. One of the biggest arguments that the "TT lovers" keep throwing out, is the fact that TT is building for the future.

Somebody says "why didnt he go with an offensive player with the first pick"? A "TT" lover will quickly point out "he's building for the future."

Someone asks "why didnt he get Favre any help"? A "TT Lover" will be right there to tell you "because its not about winning now, our great god TT is building for the future.

So then, somebody points out that TT made a comment that reeks of Hypocracy, and some "TT Lover" calls him "Tank" (wtf, i am guessing its an inside joke that I should probably care less about) I think all of you "TT Lovers should either get up off your knees, or change your login names to something more appropriate........Like Bob, or Neil.

From my avatar you can see I trust TT and believe in what he's doing. However, I have not said that TT is simply building for the future. That's a gross generalization, and frankly I haven't seen many TT supporters here who have said what you claim.

Thompson is building the organization and is choosing players he believes will help this team win. He doesn't believe in mortgaging the future, no, but if he really was onlyu concerned about "the future" he would have pulled the trigger on that Cleveland trade or made a counter-proposal.

I would argue that this team is far ahead of where it was two years ago, when Sherman had attempted, for a couple of years, to keep giving Favre the tools he needed to win now. It almost worked for one year - the year of 4th and 26. (Even then people seem to forget that that wasn't the NFC champiosnhip game; the team that beat the Pack also lost that NFC championship game.) Other than that it was a second round blowout loss to St. Louis, a first round loss to Atlanta at home, a first round loss to Minnesota and the eventual inevitable crumbling of a team that had no depth thanks to Sherman's desperate attempts to plug holes so the team could take that one more shot with Favre at the helm.

It didn't work. Sherman tried trade his way up for immediate help, and it netted him Javon Walker and a loss of lots of picks that would have provided much-needed depth. And, as I chronicled above, it didn't even get the Packers into the NFC championship game, much less the Super Bowl.

So TT is not bringing in the big names. It's been reported Moss would only re-negotiate his contract with the Pats - this suggests that had TT pulled the trigger that Moss would want to be paid his full current contract and would be less than thrilled to be here. That's not a Moss that's going to do the team any good. And so TT picked some guys we don't recognize. That doesn't mean he's foregoing this season. All along, TT has said that improvement must come primarily from the guys that are there now. Historically this is true. How many rookies can come in and make a big impact? Maybe a running back, and to a lesser extent a wide receiver, but even Javon Walker did not produce a whole lot his first year. More likely a defender, but which one did you want him to take that would immediately have an impact on the team mlore than Harrell might?

TT is trying to build the organization. That may well pay off not only for the team but for Favre as well. I'll trust TT's picks over yours or mine. I bet he's watched a lot more film of Sidney Rice and James Jones than you or I.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[Merlin]

I have the balls, I AM a TT hater. I haven't liked the guy since he chose not to resign either Whale or Rivera and replaced them with 2nd or worse string players and a rookie. I didn't like the way he handled Sherman and I don't like the way he has handled our offense. Say what you want about Sherman, the guy was a good coach in a lot of ways. No, he wasn't Holmgren and his style was different than McCarthy's. But he did win and that is what the game is all about. I like McCarthy better but I don't think he will flourish until TT gets him the personell to do the job on offense. Favre was told that he won't have to carry the team prior to the 2006 season and yet he was put in the position to carry the team again. This year offensively, he will have to carry the team with less weapons then last year. I blame TT for wasting the last few years of a definite HOF and still a top 10 QB in the league if not top 5. I know people say that Rodgers hasn't been given a chance to play, blah, blah. I disagree with that entirely. He has been given every opportunity to show he has the skills and so far he hasn't shown anything. Rodgers admitted that he didn't study or work hard enough his rookie year because he knew he wasn't going to play. He was our backup QB and he didn't care enough to learn the job? He says all the right things to the camera and the media reports all the right things. But you never hear how impressive he is. You hear the same old mantra from the coaching staff about him improving and they like what they see. Some people don't pick up on that as being what they always say about a player. TT truly believes this guy is our future. His pride and arrogance isn't helping this team.

When TT came to town he made it very clear that he was in charge, coaches be damned. We can knock on Sherman all we want to for his performance as a GM, but that is hindsight. I don't see nearly the people knocking TT for his draft issues. This was his third draft. He should be knocked for taking Aaron Rodgers and claiming he was the BPA when it's clear there was a reason he dropped in the draft. He should be knocked for taking Murphy because his medical issue should have been something our team physicians should have picked up on. I loved the pick and I think he would have been great if he was healthy. He should be knocked for taking Whittaker, he should be knocked for not signing a veteran kicker and punter long term. Longwell may have been a wuss ass for the way he left but not replacing him with a veteran was stupid. Not that I have a problem with Rayner because I think he will evolve into an elite kicker and Ryan for that matter. But you do have to question his commitment to winning now by signing basically rookies to the kicking game and virtually no one to the offense. He has let go many pro-bowl players and I am sure Franks (although most of you have given up on him I haven't) will be lucky to make the team. That only shows me that he is building the team one "team" at a time and now in his third year, you would think the offense would get some attention. My opinion is that as long as Favre is around, TT won't do anything to help him out. We could have had Moss, even at his current salary although I don't buy that rumor for a second. We could have gotten Larry Johnson but instead opted for another rookie to vie for the spot. He let Henderson go and although he may not be what he once was, he did do the job he was asked to do last season. I don't see Miree as an upgrade over Henderson. I think he had a few years left in him and at the Vet's minimum, it would have been worth it just for his leadership. Keeping other players around that will not even make the roster over a skilled veteran who can do the job and has the people skills to help out the team far outweighs the "potential" a younger player may offer.

Building for the future is all fine and great, you know, where you find players to replace your veterans when they move on. Not cutting proven veterans and then putting rookies in their place. I know in 2006 we started more rookies then any other team. We probably did the same in 2005 by the end of the season. I know that over the past two season we have had a lot of rookies on the roster while our proven veteran pro-bowl players have dwindled down to a few. You get the rookies ready to replace the veterans, not through them under the bus. Although I think very highly of our starting rookies because they did a tremendous job under dire circumstances, that came at a very high cost to the team. Now we must wait out another season with an offense with no identity. It has been 2 years since our last winning season and TT has yet to sign any offensive player of notability save Koren Robinson who wasn't on the field long enough to contribute. What does that say about TT? To only sign a troubled veteran who he drafted with the Seahawks? What about Manual? The guy had a few good games because he had to fill in for the starter. There was a reason he wasn't the starter, Holmgren knows players and TT should have seen that. Face it, TT has an ego and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or says. It's his way or the highway, no matter the cost. That is something that simply cannot be tolerated any longer.

[the_idle_threat]

There were no running backs at 16 that were clearly better tha the guy we got in round 2. .


I think dishing that 2nd round pick for Turner would have made alot of sense.....

I like the new avatar. :lol:

I don't buy the hype on Turner, and it looks like TT doesn't either. Everybody loves the backup guy, but nobody really knows if he can carry the load. Lamont Jordan was highly thought-of when he was in New York, backing up Curtis Martin. Jordan has been pretty inconsistent carrying the load for Oakland.

The old thing that's new again in this league is running back by committee. Looks like that's where TT is going, and I'm ok with it.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Do we even know Turner could be had for a 2nd? Sounds like San Diego was shooting for a 1st and 3rd, and maybe would have settled on a 1st.

[Merlin]

I wouldn't have given a 1st or 2nd for Turner, a backup to someone who will be one of the greatest backs of all time. Maybe a 3rd. There is no guarantee that he will perform any better then Morency. I think we got a steal in Morency for Gado even though I liked Gado for his attitude, Morency has some potential.

[the_idle_threat]

Edit: Nevermind... ***totally uncalled for flame post deleted***

I swear the negativity around here is getting to me. Need to take a break. :(

[Merlin]

First of all, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at a player and say "yeah" or "neay". Fans do it all the time so to single out me for my opinions is arrogant on your part since you do it as well. Or are you one of those double standard types who doesn't practice what they preach?

Secondly, comparing apples to oranges is only something that people do when their argument isn't working. For that matter, I seriously doubt that TT has the intelligence to figure out a "hello world" program based on how he hasn't figured out how to put together a winning football team in three years. Logic is everything, speculation is a gamble. As far as critiquing, as a programmer, my work gets critiqued all of the time by professionals and novices. That is the nature of programs, doing what the end user wants it to do. So I guess your "facts" do work in reverse.

As far as 20/20 hindsight, I think you need to go read my history on TT. I haven't been in the guys corner since the OL fiasco. I have questioned his logic and reasoning and his obvious ego and arrogance every step of the way. The only hindsight thought was the Murphy pick.

As far as wildass speculation, just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it isn't true. One could argue that your whole post is wildass speculation, would they then be wrong because you say so?

[the_idle_threat]

Crap, too late. :?

[Merlin]

Perhaps you shouldn't go throwing stones in your glass house next time. You won't hear many positives out of me regarding TT. Even when I do say something positive it goes largely unnoticed or just flat out ignored as is the case here.

If the negativity you claim is a problem, then I have a simple solution, don't read what I write since apparently it's never positive.

[the_idle_threat]

That's a great idea, Merlin.

btw--I don't "take back" what I wrote ... I just deleted it because it's inappropriate for this forum.

[Lurker64]

Still a lot of solid players on the board with the Browns pick and having their first round draft pick next year would have been incredible.

I see both sides on this though; I'm just surprised TT didn't pull the trigger on this one.

I'm less surprised actually, since the deal the Browns offered Thompson is actually less good than the deal Dallas got from the Browns.

The Browns 1st next year is worth 550 points according to the system, and our 1st this year is worth 1000 points. Switching 2nds with the Browns is would be a net gain of 130 (550-420), and Switching 3rds with the Browns is a net gain of 65 (255-190). So the Browns were offering 745 points for 1,000 points which would be a terrible trade value wise.

Dallas on the other hand got next year's 1st (550 points) plus this year's 2nd (550 points) for the number 22 pick which is worth 780 points, which is a fabulous deal.

I'd be willing to bet that the reason the Browns ended up trading with Dallas is that they low-balled all the teams before the Cowboys and were getting desperate. I also suspect that if the Browns had offered TT the same deal he offered Dallas (or maybe with a couple of low round picks thrown in), he would have been much more likely to take it.

But really, the way the points worked out, what Cleveland offered us was a bad trade. I'm not surprised or disappointed that Thompson didn't make a bad trade.

[Green Bud Packer]

I feel your angst Merlin as i too suffered thru a packer regime which i hated. the sherman years sucked for me. i loathed the man and his ways. he was sucking the joy of football out of favre. how is improving the defense not helping favre? any upgrades are a help to favre and the team. the 07 pack should be better just thru the maturing process of a young team. you lost alot of credibility with me cuz of your signature. thompsons 3rd seaaon is upon us and i think he will have built a winning team in his 3rd year. go pack.

[Merlin]

That's a great idea, Merlin.

btw--I don't "take back" what I wrote ... I just deleted it because it's inappropriate for this forum.

I wouldn't expect you to take it back. You are entitled to your opinions like everyone else. I expect you and everyone else to defend their opinions otherwise the opinion isn't worthy of conversation.

[Merlin]

I feel your angst Merlin as i too suffered thru a packer regime which i hated. the sherman years sucked for me. i loathed the man and his ways. he was sucking the joy of football out of favre. how is improving the defense not helping favre? any upgrades are a help to favre and the team. the 07 pack should be better just thru the maturing process of a young team. you lost alot of credibility with me cuz of your signature. thompsons 3rd seaaon is upon us and i think he will have built a winning team in his 3rd year. go pack.

From what I can see from TT, from day one, his goal was to build his team. Favre is one of the last pieces that refuses to go away. Although I agree that building a defense does help the team, we for the first time in years will have the same defense on the field under the same defensive coordinator. That will make them better in and of itself. Tearing apart the offense and doing nothing to shore it up doesn't help the team and counteracts any statements made by TT stating he is for winning now. I guarantee you that if Rodgers was the QB, TT would be doing everything he could to get him play makers. I will stand by that statement until such time TT proves me wrong.

[Partial]

I feel your angst Merlin as i too suffered thru a packer regime which i hated. the sherman years sucked for me. i loathed the man and his ways. he was sucking the joy of football out of favre. how is improving the defense not helping favre? any upgrades are a help to favre and the team. the 07 pack should be better just thru the maturing process of a young team. you lost alot of credibility with me cuz of your signature. thompsons 3rd seaaon is upon us and i think he will have built a winning team in his 3rd year. go pack.

From what I can see from TT, from day one, his goal was to build his team. Favre is one of the last pieces that refuses to go away. Although I agree that building a defense does help the team, we for the first time in years will have the same defense on the field under the same defensive coordinator. That will make them better in and of itself. Tearing apart the offense and doing nothing to shore it up doesn't help the team and counteracts any statements made by TT stating he is for winning now. I guarantee you that if Rodgers was the QB, TT would be doing everything he could to get him play makers. I will stand by that statement until such time TT proves me wrong.

Who did we let go from last year to tear up an offense? Wahle was 3 years ago now. It's time we all move past that. Walker wanted to leave. He burned his bridges. Oh well. He focused last years draft around offensive talent. He improved the depth of it this year.

[Green Bud Packer]

with the way the off-season is going i believe thompson feels morency can carry the load at rb,he feels that d.d., jennings and robinson make up a soild recieving core and he likes his o-line. improving the d-line and special teams will add to wins this season. i believe all this and i ain't been drinkin kool aid.

[Merlin]

Longwell left on his own accord, that isn't on TT. What is on TT is not replacing the teams leading scorer with another proven leading scorer. He replaced him with a kick off specialist. I like Rayner but you don't take away the teams leading scorer and replace him with an unknown on a 4-12 team with a new coaching staff. The idea is to give the new coaching staff every opportunity to exceed. That's why I am very high on the current staff, TT didn't give them much to work with, he gave them a lot of raw talent and they still ended up 8-8 and I think that's impressive.

We lost Walker and yes, that is partially on Walker but also partially on TT for not defusing the situation and possibly resolving it amicably, that is his job. Jennings was a great pick up, as was Walker (ala Sherman) but other then that, Ferguson is still on the roster and no one has emerged as a strong #3. So this year we added two more rookies in hopes someone emerges #3. We didn't sign a solid veteran WR. So for the 3rd year in a row, we have DD, and now Jennings and who? The only person Favre has had to throw to the last 2 season is DD the rest has been by committee. This year is shaping up the same. I am sorry but you can only do that so often before it bites you in the ass. You would have thought our 12-20 record in the last two years would have made a difference in that thinking.

[Rastak]

Do we even know Turner could be had for a 2nd? Sounds like San Diego was shooting for a 1st and 3rd, and maybe would have settled on a 1st.

I definately wouldn't do that....nothing higher than a second.

[Merlin]

with the way the off-season is going i believe thompson feels morency can carry the load at rb,he feels that d.d., jennings and robinson make up a soild recieving core and he likes his o-line. improving the d-line and special teams will add to wins this season. i believe all this and i ain't been drinkin kool aid.

I like the OL and I think Morency is a great fit. I like how well he hit the holes last year in the ZBS. He has a burst to the hole, although I think he may be easier to bring down than Green was, he looks like he has all the right tools to be successful.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I am neither a TT hater nor lover.

I understand his inactivity in free agency for the most part. I understand him not going after extremely high priced free agents and jeopardizing future cap, but he was also to timid in free agency. I could of signed green and had this Brandon Jackson guy split carries with him, he could of went out try to sign to cheap free agents that could help the team now i.e. Hamlin and Griffin, etc. My point here is that he has the right idea; he just is just to far at one end of the spectrum. He needs to realize that you can build for the future and still make moves that can help you win now with out ruining cap, etc., in the future.

Also, while I do trust TT when it comes to the draft, I think overall this last draft was pretty average. And average is not good enough when your main plan is to build through the draft. He needs to produce at least 3 players that will be long term starters if this plan is to work and I don't think he did that in this past draft.

I don't expect big things this year. :(

[PackerTimer]

My opinion is that as long as Favre is around, TT won't do anything to help him out. We could have had Moss, even at his current salary although I don't buy that rumor for a second. We could have gotten Larry Johnson but instead opted for another rookie to vie for the spot. He let Henderson go and although he may not be what he once was, he did do the job he was asked to do last season. I don't see Miree as an upgrade over Henderson. I think he had a few years left in him and at the Vet's minimum, it would have been worth it just for his leadership. Keeping other players around that will not even make the roster over a skilled veteran who can do the job and has the people skills to help out the team far outweighs the "potential" a younger player may offer.

This is a huge problem with alot of posters here. You assume TT could have had Moss or Johnson had he just had the balls to pull the trigger. Other than some crap you read on the intertent, what makes you so sure that TT was the one who didn't pull the trigger on the trade?

[Merlin]

I agree that he is on the far end of the FA thing. There will be cap cuts yet and maybe he's holding out till then. If and when the true story about the Moss thing comes out, either TT will look like and ass or Moss will. Right now it's a toss up!

:P

[Merlin]

My opinion is that as long as Favre is around, TT won't do anything to help him out. We could have had Moss, even at his current salary although I don't buy that rumor for a second. We could have gotten Larry Johnson but instead opted for another rookie to vie for the spot. He let Henderson go and although he may not be what he once was, he did do the job he was asked to do last season. I don't see Miree as an upgrade over Henderson. I think he had a few years left in him and at the Vet's minimum, it would have been worth it just for his leadership. Keeping other players around that will not even make the roster over a skilled veteran who can do the job and has the people skills to help out the team far outweighs the "potential" a younger player may offer.

This is a huge problem with alot of posters here. You assume TT could have had Moss or Johnson had he just had the balls to pull the trigger. Other than some crap you read on the intertent, what makes you so sure that TT was the one who didn't pull the trigger on the trade?

First of all it isn't a "problem" with a lot of posters here, it's their opinion and obviously if differs from yours and that's okay. There have been for and against rumors around Moss since the trade went down. I don't know what happened. I don't know what TT did or didn't do. On the surface it would appear that he didn't do enough. As far as Larry Johnson, I only used that as a reference to his lack of going after reasonable talent. It sounded like the Johnson and Moss deals were workable for us yet neither happened. Letting Henderson go was a stupid move. He brings a lot to the team that isn't in the stat sheets. He could also still play at a high level for the vets minimum. If you look at TT's history, he usually opts for the younger talent vs proven veterans. Last year he waited until Manual was available and pounced all over him and Manual was nothing more then a TT draft pick at Seattle. He didn't prove he was a starter to Holmgren, you know the coach? One I believe we all have respect for so I will take Holmgren's opinion of a player more seriously than the GM who drafted him. It's just odd that the two players he went after without question were Manual and Robinson, "his" players. It was almost like he had to be talked into the Woodson deal.

[mraynrand]

I would have considered the Dallas-type deal, with an extra #2 this year. If you just give up our #16 for Clevelands #1 next year and swap positions in the rounds, you only gain position. If Cleveland has a good year, you could be drafting below #16. TT thought he was getting the best DT at #16. What if he's right? What if this guy is an all pro DT?

[HarveyWallbangers]

That's what's strange. Dallas got a MUCH better deal than what apparently was offered us. That makes little sense. Dallas got a GREAT deal. The deal offered us was more 50-50.

[mraynrand]

he was sucking the joy of football out of favre.

Was he? Didn't he completely re-vamp the WR postion after 2001? Wasn't Favre on pace for an MVP season 9 games into 2002, before he and half the team got injured? Whether you like Sherman or not, your statement couldn't be more misguided. Sherman spent four draft picks - two #4s (for Terry Glenn) and a #2 and a #1 to move up and get Walker. If you don't think spending for Walker helped Favre immensely, you weren't watching the Packers. Did you notice that Favre's numbers in 2004 matched his numbers in 1997? Hard to miss if you really follow football.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Swapping three draft picks for an exchange of 1st round picks is a lot different than the deal Dallas got. When you consider there is truly value in having a first round pick a year earlier, then their offer wasn't that great. It could turn out to be top 5, but if only turns out to be a top 10-15, then it's not a good deal for us. If it turns out to be worse than a top 15, then that's a horrible deal for us. With the way teams rise and fall in the NFL, that's a much bigger risk than the deal Dallas got.

[mraynrand]

That's what's strange. Dallas got a MUCH better deal than what apparently was offered us. That makes little sense. Dallas got a GREAT deal. The deal offered us was more 50-50.

I agree. It boggles the mind. Either the Browns were getting really desperate at that time, or Dallas just drove a harder bargain. If you think about it though, everyone in Cleveland is ecstatic, but if Brady Quinn flops, the Browns are going to suffer for another 4-5 years at least, especially because the mortgaged so much of the future on this year, including trading picks to move back into the second round. It really was a Shermanesque draft for the Browns (except Sherman never had higher than a #20 pick).

[HarveyWallbangers]

I agree.

[Fritz]

From Merlin:

"From what I can see from TT, from day one, his goal was to build his team. Favre is one of the last pieces that refuses to go away. Although I agree that building a defense does help the team, we for the first time in years will have the same defense on the field under the same defensive coordinator. That will make them better in and of itself. Tearing apart the offense and doing nothing to shore it up doesn't help the team and counteracts any statements made by TT stating he is for winning now. I guarantee you that if Rodgers was the QB, TT would be doing everything he could to get him play makers. I will stand by that statement until such time TT proves me wrong."

I don't agree with you that somehow TT is so proud that he would undermine Favre in order to get rid of him, so he can then get playmakers for Rodgers since Rodgers is his guy. I'm sorry, Merlin, but I just don't buy that TT is that full of himself that he'd be willing to risk his job in order to get Favre to leave so Green Bay will become Ted's team. That just seems pretty far out there.

But of course you are entitled to your opinion. That's why we're here - to share them.

[retailguy]

he was sucking the joy of football out of favre.

Was he? Didn't he completely re-vamp the WR postion after 2001? Wasn't Favre on pace for an MVP season 9 games into 2002, before he and half the team got injured? Whether you like Sherman or not, your statement couldn't be more misguided. Sherman spent four draft picks - two #4s (for Terry Glenn) and a #2 and a #1 to move up and get Walker. If you don't think spending for Walker helped Favre immensely, you weren't watching the Packers. Did you notice that Favre's numbers in 2004 matched his numbers in 1997? Hard to miss if you really follow football.

But that doesn't support "feelings".... now does it?

How quickly we forget Ahman Greens 1900 yard season. How quickly we forget Favre's statistics that year. Yeah, we lost to Philadelphia, so the ____ what?

At least we got to play Philadelphia instead of WATCHING SOMEONE ELSE ON THE FRICKING TV....like we have for the last two seasons, and will again this season, while listening to "We're NOT rebuilding", or "I'm putting a coat of paint on my dream house"... Yeah.

[retailguy]

That's what's strange. Dallas got a MUCH better deal than what apparently was offered us. That makes little sense. Dallas got a GREAT deal. The deal offered us was more 50-50.

That's because Dallas didn't call back and say "NO". They called back and said "We need more". Then they got offered next years 1st and a 3rd. They said "MORE" and then got the second pick.

You gotta say more than "NO" to get a better offer, don't you?

[retailguy]

That's a great idea, Merlin.

btw--I don't "take back" what I wrote ... I just deleted it because it's inappropriate for this forum.

I read what you wrote, and didn't think it was that bad, but rest assured, I'd have pointed it out to you, after your sudden attack on me. Nice to know that you're not really the "goody two-shoes" you make yourself out to be.

[woodbuck27]

I think everyone would agree that TT is building for the future. He sure as hell hasnt done much to improve our offense to help us win now, that is for sure. So imagine my dismay when I read this JSonline quote from TT in regards to why he didnt make a trade with the Browns that would have given us their 1st round pick in 2008.

TT : "I believe in building and that sort of thing. But I think you have to try to help your team. Quite frankly, I'd rather help us now rather than help us a year from now."


I wonder if his nose got longer as he said that?

It's enough to make me gag !!


I just made this post on another thread and I'll land it here as well.

That post is as follows:

I would have made this deal. Now it appears that TT was really enamoured over DT Justin Harrell.

The deal would have netted us another early second round pick. As the draft went these players would have been available:

** all mentioned as players that members here liked.

4 36 Philadelphia (from Cleveland through Dallas) Kolb, Kevin QB 6-3 220 Houston

5 37 San Diego (from Washington through N.Y. Jets and Chicago) ** Weddle, Eric SS 5-11 200 Utah

6 38 Oakland (from Arizona) ** Miller, Zach TE 6-5 259 Arizona State

7 39 Atlanta (from Houston) Blalock, Justin OT 6-4 329 Texas

8 40 Miami Beck, John QB 6-2 216 Brigham Young

9 41 Atlanta (from Minnesota) ** Houston, Chris CB 5-11 185 Arkansas

10 42 Indianapolis (from San Francisco) Ugoh, Tony G 6-5 305 Arkansas

11 43 Detroit (from Buffalo) Stanton, Drew QB 6-3 235 Michigan State

12 44 Minnesota (from Atlanta) ** Rice, Sidney WR 6-4 202 South Carolina

13 45 Carolina ** Jarrett, Dwayne WR 6-5 213 Southern California

Then at #47 TT could have gone with one of the following:

Again, all solid offensive prospects.

17 49 Cincinnati Irons, Kenny RB 5-11 195 Auburn

18 50 Tennessee Henry, Chris RB 6-0 228 Arizona

19 51 N.Y. Giants Smith, Steve WR 5-11 199 Southern California 20

52 St. Louis Leonard, Brian FB 6-1 238 Rutgers


We would have two firsts next season, one of which would likely be a top ten pick.

Ted Thompson doesn't like being painted in a corner. As I see it in hindsight. That deal would have netted us two pretty solid offensive players.

Two out of three at WR,RB or TE.

PLUS another first next season.

That deal makes way too much sense for Ted Thompson to go for it and desert his agenda.

[3irty1]

It's easy to speculate that TT didn't really have a chance to seal any one of the much talked about deals lately. He sat on his hands while all the good free agents signed with other teams. He traded down rather than up in the draft for a decent WR like Jarrett. He didn't get Moss. He didn't get Turner or LJ....

Not saying that he's driving Favre away... but he is kind of wasting the last year or two of the most charismatic, Hall-of-Famest QB in history. A GM with some hair on his peaches would have converted on one of the previously mentioned deals. I like where our Defense is going and I think our WR's and running game are already underestimated but there were some pretty amazing opportunities this off season that TT dropped the ball on. He may be a genius or whatever but he's definitely a pussy.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

It's easy to speculate that TT didn't really have a chance to seal any one of the much talked about deals lately. He sat on his hands while all the good free agents signed with other teams. He traded down rather than up in the draft for a decent WR like Jarrett. He didn't get Moss. He didn't get Turner or LJ....

Not saying that he's driving Favre away... but he is kind of wasting the last year or two of the most charismatic, Hall-of-Famest QB in history. A GM with some hair on his peaches would have converted on one of the previously mentioned deals. I like where our Defense is going and I think our WR's and running game are already underestimated but there were some pretty amazing opportunities this off season that TT dropped the ball on. He may be a genius or whatever but he's definitely a pussy.

Hey a new member. Welcome 8-)

[woodbuck27]

I don't think Ballhawk is a TT lover or hater; he was just trying to be funny.

I think all of your points are valid; I truly am surprised TT didn't make this deal; I think he fell in love with a player and was not interested in trading down unless he felt like he could get the guy.

NO !

I believe that my take on this is very accurate.

That would have been a sweet deal for a man that loves the draft and trading down.

That describes Ted Thompson the draft genious doesn't it ?

Ted Thompson is so full of it I can hardly believe that there is a soul on this board that puts up with it now.

It's especially difficult for me given that we love the Packers and seem to be a rather intelligent and informed crowd of Packer fans

[retailguy]

I don't think Ballhawk is a TT lover or hater; he was just trying to be funny.

I think all of your points are valid; I truly am surprised TT didn't make this deal; I think he fell in love with a player and was not interested in trading down unless he felt like he could get the guy.

NO !

I believe that my take on this is very accurate.

That would have been a sweet deal for a man that loves the draft and trading down.

That describes Ted Thompson the draft genious doesn't it ?

Ted Thompson is so full of it I can hardly believe that there is a soul on this board that puts up with it now.

It's especially difficult for me given that we love the Packers and seem to be a rather intelligent and informed crowd of Packer fans

Guess we can put you solidly in the "hater" column now, huh?

there goes all your credibility because you "aren't singing the Company song".

After me now, ready...... "Mediocrity, Mediocrity, how I love to be mediocre...."...

LOL. :twisted:

[woodbuck27]

Tank, if you lost your password why didn't you just tell someone?

Tank if that is YOU.

Some things will never change.

ie Tank and woodbuck27 Vs Ted Thompson's ways. :)

Tank if that is you? Don't give it up.

It's 8-)

[woodbuck27]

I don't think Ballhawk is a TT lover or hater; he was just trying to be funny.

I think all of your points are valid; I truly am surprised TT didn't make this deal; I think he fell in love with a player and was not interested in trading down unless he felt like he could get the guy.

NO !

I believe that my take on this is very accurate.

That would have been a sweet deal for a man that loves the draft and trading down.

That describes Ted Thompson the draft genious doesn't it ?

Ted Thompson is so full of it I can hardly believe that there is a soul on this board that puts up with it now.

It's especially difficult for me given that we love the Packers and seem to be a rather intelligent and informed crowd of Packer fans

Guess we can put you solidly in the "hater" column now, huh?

there goes all your credibility because you "aren't singing the Company song".

After me now, ready...... "Mediocrity, Mediocrity, how I love to be mediocre...."...

LOL. :twisted:

I've watched this (excuse me )man's every move since he became our GM.

No I don't hate him. I don't hate anyone.

Ted Thompson is too pathetic to hate. He's obviously pathetic.

[3irty1]

I've watched this (excuse me )man's every move since he became our GM.

No I don't hate him. I don't hate anyone.

Ted Thompson is too pathetic to hate. He's obviously pathetic.

Pretty liberal use of the word "man."

[woodbuck27]

I've watched this (excuse me )man's every move since he became our GM.

No I don't hate him. I don't hate anyone.

Ted Thompson is too pathetic to hate. He's obviously pathetic.

Pretty liberal use of the word "man."

My sarcasm is obvious.

If I hold it all in I'll harm myself.

That's what a forum is for partially. To expell feelings of frustration in a non destructive manner. That is . . .without personal attacks on fellow members.

[MJZiggy]

At least we got to play Philadelphia instead of WATCHING SOMEONE ELSE ON THE FRICKING TV....like we have for the last two seasons, and will again this season, while listening to "We're NOT rebuilding", or "I'm putting a coat of paint on my dream house"... Yeah.

You are so sure of that before the first mini-camp. It's amazing to me. I find it interesting that because we didn't sign someone that the media annointed a big name to or that had really great production 3 years ago that we are absolutely destined to fail and that there is NO chance whatsoever that this bunch on no names could possibly make the playoffs because we play more teams that were good last year. The Bears had a good draft so I've heard. You'll never convince me that they're a stonger organization than the were a year ago. You'll also never convince me that the Lions couldn't make a sudden comeback. We just won't know til they get some uniforms on and start hitting each other. That's part of the joy of the game.

To be honest, I don't give a rat's ass (pun intended) about a big name. So what if the pundits know who someone is. It happens way too often that some kid comes out of nowhere and lights it up (Jennings anyone?) and suddenly is a big name. I don't care if someone was great a few years ago and could be for us. Bubba was great a few years ago and you guys want t string him up and get rid of him. He's still a very good blocker and with a little improvement on the o-line, which is to be expected, he has the potential to return to form. If not, one of the kids will. That's life in the NFL. You guys are ready to lay down and die. I'm so glad the team isn't.

[Green Bud Packer]

Two out of three at WR,RB or TE.
whos too say that your WR, RB,TE tandem will be any better than the WRs, RBs, TE thompson picked? noone will know til they put the pads on and even then it wont be known for sure although we'll have a better idea then. go pack.

[Lurker64]

That's what's strange. Dallas got a MUCH better deal than what apparently was offered us. That makes little sense. Dallas got a GREAT deal. The deal offered us was more 50-50.

I agree. It boggles the mind. Either the Browns were getting really desperate at that time, or Dallas just drove a harder bargain. If you think about it though, everyone in Cleveland is ecstatic, but if Brady Quinn flops, the Browns are going to suffer for another 4-5 years at least, especially because the mortgaged so much of the future on this year, including trading picks to move back into the second round. It really was a Shermanesque draft for the Browns (except Sherman never had higher than a #20 pick).

My guess is that Cleveland was getting desperate, as word on the draft day was that that Kansas City was going to take Quinn if he was still available, and Cleveland traded into the last possible spot they could before KC picked.

If they would have waited longer they wouldn't have gotten Quinn, and Dallas held all the cards for Cleveland got taken to the cleaners on the trade (they lost by several hundred when you consider points.)

[Lurker64]

The deal would have netted us another early second round pick.

Cleveland never offered us their second round pick, they only offered us the opportunity to switch picks in the second and third. As I explained previously, this is a huge loss on the points chart, and Ted Thompson would have been an idiot to accept it.

If Cleveland offers Thompson the deal Dallas got, Thompson probably takes it. Cleveland lowballed TT, and he said no.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It's also easy to say, Dallas called back--instead of just saying "no". I doubt Thompson is as pathetic as people make him out to be. Thompson said he called the four teams behind to look to trade down. It could be that in his 15 minutes to make the pick, it just didn't work out. You know he would have loved to trade down for the right value.
:D

Perhaps he was working on trades with those other four teams, time was running short, and the Cleveland deal was on the table. Could be that he thought he could work out another deal.

Like Lurker said, KC was going to draft Quinn. At least, that was my prediction.
:D

Could be Cleveland got desperate at pick #22. Until then, they might not have been so desperate. We'll never know.

[woodbuck27]

Two out of three at WR,RB or TE.
whos too say that your WR, RB,TE tandem will be any better than the WRs, RBs, TE thompson picked? noone will know til they put the pads on and even then it wont be known for sure although we'll have a better idea then. go pack.

touche but. . .

The tie breaker woud certainly have to go to 'the fact' that we would have two first Rd. picks in 2008.

That was HUGE !!!

That TT passed on that cannot ever be forgotten. I feel he made a mistake and I expand on that, by giving a very plauseable reason for TT rejecting such a solid deal.

[retailguy]

You are so sure of that before the first mini-camp. It's amazing to me. I find it interesting that because we didn't sign someone that the media annointed a big name to or that had really great production 3 years ago that we are absolutely destined to fail and that there is NO chance whatsoever that this bunch on no names could possibly make the playoffs because we play more teams that were good last year. The Bears had a good draft so I've heard. You'll never convince me that they're a stonger organization than the were a year ago. You'll also never convince me that the Lions couldn't make a sudden comeback. We just won't know til they get some uniforms on and start hitting each other. That's part of the joy of the game.

To be honest, I don't give a rat's ass (pun intended) about a big name. So what if the pundits know who someone is. It happens way too often that some kid comes out of nowhere and lights it up (Jennings anyone?) and suddenly is a big name. I don't care if someone was great a few years ago and could be for us. Bubba was great a few years ago and you guys want t string him up and get rid of him. He's still a very good blocker and with a little improvement on the o-line, which is to be expected, he has the potential to return to form. If not, one of the kids will. That's life in the NFL. You guys are ready to lay down and die. I'm so glad the team isn't.


Good rant. :twisted:


Yes, I'm pretty sure. I'd love to be wrong.

I wasn't looking for a BIG NAME. Find where I said that. You've got me mixed up with someone else.

I was looking for HELP. HELP for the Offense specifically. Got an RB. Not sure what to make of him, but the general consensus is "he's no Ahman Green". Even an aging Green.

I do not believe that ANY rookie can run behind our line right now as well as Green could've. Yes, got a bad attitude about this one, so what?

I don't see good things right now. As I said, I'd love to be wrong, but I don't see that as likely right now.

As to Bubba, I've been talking about MAX PROTECT for weeks now. I don't see that changing before the bye week at the soonest, based upon the competition we'll face early in the season. Until the line can function solidly, WITHOUT max protect, Bubba doesn't matter much.

One of the reasons that the red zone offense sucked last year, is because Bubba blocked so much. I don't know if he's over the hill or not, but he had a bunch of drops last year, uncharacteristic for him, but he did it, but until he can run routes, it doesn't really matter. I pushed for an upgrade in free agency, because David Martin has always been a better receiver than Franks, and that loss will hurt (even in the limited time he'd have been on the field).

Bubba is not the problem. The line is the problem.

[Lurker64]

Like Lurker said, KC was going to draft Quinn. At least, that was my prediction.
:D

On ESPN they actually said "Kansas City has announced that they will take Brady Quinn if he is available at 23" so it's not that strange a prediction.

[HarveyWallbangers]

On ESPN they actually said "Kansas City has announced that they will take Brady Quinn if he is available at 23" so it's not that strange a prediction.

If you go back to the draft thread, I predicted it after Miami passed on him.

It was going to happen--until Cleveland usurped my prediction.
:D

[PackerBlues]

:evil: Mwa ha ha ha ha ha !!!! :twisted:

Yeah, and if you go back to my posting on draft day, I predicted that TT is a Jackass. How was I to know that he is actually just a hypocrite.

TT : "I believe in building and that sort of thing. But I think you have to try to help your team. Quite frankly, I'd rather help us now rather than help us a year from now."


Sorry, that one was just to hard to pass up!

[Partial]

holy cow this is a heated debate. It's as if its just me and merlin going back and forth :oops:

[PackerBlues]

Ted's first first round pick for the Packers: Aaron Rogers. TT's way of saying "Hey Brett, I want you gone, and I am not going to do anything to help this offense." I sure am glad Ted used this pick on a QB, Rogers sure has come in handy since Teddy drafted him hasnt he <---SARCASM!!!

Teds second first round pick for the Packers: A.J. Hawk. Easily the safest pick in the draft and not a pick that makes TT a genius, it just makes him the GM that took the safest pick this year. Also not a guy that was going to help put points on the board. Am I happy we have him? Yes. Were there other players that could have improved our offense? Yes, without a doubt. Again, a silent message is sent to Favre.

Teds third first round pick for the Packers: Justin Harrell. Another "safe" pick? Not exactly......a little injury history here. Was there another "silent message" sent to Favre? I think so.

I can tell you one thing, If I were the starting QB for the Packers from the time that TT took over up til now.........I would have been cut for sure.
I dont think any GM would put up with his QB walking into his office and Bitch Slapping the living shit out of him. Lucky for Teddy that Farve has a much nicer temperment than me.

[MJZiggy]

Ted's first first round pick for the Packers: Aaron Rogers. TT's way of saying "Hey Brett, I want you gone, and I am not going to do anything to help this offense." I sure am glad Ted used this pick on a QB, Rogers sure has come in handy since Teddy drafted him hasnt he <---SARCASM!!!



What if *spits on the ground, knocks on wood and throw salt over shoulder* Brett had gone down last year **SHUDDER**?? He is 37 years old and has been on the retirement merry-go-round for several years now after 17 years in the league

Great. Draft a nice weapon and have the QB go down without a good replacement to pass to your new weapon. I am TRULY glad we've so rarely had to use the heir apparent, but that doesn't mean he offers nothing to the team.

[packrulz]

I had Harrell on my board going in the 1st round, as did many other boards, his stock was rising up to draft day. If TT had made the trade, Harrell would've been gone. From the clips I've seen, Harrell goes all out every play, takes on double teams, and plays hurt. He sort of reminds me of a guy from Tenn named Reggie White. I'm not saying he's the next Reggie, but he's a hell of a DT and would've been snapped up right away had TT traded. The trade wasn't a very good deal anyway. I don't buy the notion that TT isn't getting Favre any help, Off the top of my head he drafted 2 RB's, 2 WR's, 1 OL, 1 TE, a K, & a FB. If you look at the games the Pack lost last year it was because the defense couldn't shut the other team down, Favre was pretty well protected, Green ran the ball ok, the WR's dropped a few but were a threat, but The D couldn't get off the field. TT improved the depth of the team, players work a lot harder when there's someone trying to take their job. TT didn't make the popular picks, but almost every player he drafted had slipped due to various circumstances and he really does try to draft the best player regardless of position, he was trying to get the best value at each round. I'm not for or against TT but I can see his reasoning.

[Spaulding]

This thread has the makings of West Berlin/East Berlin. Heated discussion is good but neither rampant negatism nor blind optimism holds much weight and reminds me of the JSO.

Obviously everybody is entitled to opinions but the speculation on this board sometimes makes me spit up my beer and I hate wasting beer. Who knows what went down in the discussions with Moss or potential trade ups or trade downs. Makes for great debates but every post is pure speculation and thus how vehement people are in their thoughts (bashing or defending Thompson) being the truth are getting old. Last year evidently Thompson offered more or the same money to Vinatieri and Arrington and they opted for a place other than Green Bay due to demographics, going to a contender, etc. What was said behind closed doors - who knows. Maybe he rubbed the FA's the wrong way or not, don't know, don't care as long as the team improves.

Bring back Patler and his facts as that holds weight. Speaking of which, where has he been?

Thompson for right or wrong is the GM and being a Packer fan I have to believe that Harlan made the right choice in bringing him onboard and that Thompson in turn made the right move in hiring McCarthy.

I've paid my dues in the 70's and 80's and thus even 8-8 years I can stomach if I see progression and two years is not enough to define Thompson's reign as GM. My vote gets cast at the end of year three.

[PackerBlues]

Kewl Avatar Packrulz! heh heh......one might argue that the Offense could not stay on the field thereby wearing our Defense out. As in 3 and out by our offense......Defense did a good job. You can only have so many 3 and outs by your offense before the "law of averages" says your Defense is going to wear down and give up points.

In effect, you could argue that Defense wins games, but you still need points on the board, and they could use a longer rest inbetween our offenses "3 and outs".

(had to edit this one to add.......Very kewl avatar Mrbojangles!)

[packrulz]

Kewl Avatar Packrulz! heh heh......one might argue that the Offense could not stay on the field thereby wearing our Defense out. As in 3 and out by our offense......Defense did a good job. You can only have so many 3 and outs by your offense before the "law of averages" says your Defense is going to wear down and give up points.

In effect, you could argue that Defense wins games, but you still need points on the board, and they could use a longer rest inbetween our offenses "3 and outs".

(had to edit this one to add.......Very kewl avatar Mrbojangles!)

That's a matter of opinion, some of the Packer games were only lost by a few points, like the Saints, Rams, and Seahawks games. Had the Packers won those they would've been in the playoffs.

Sun., Sept. 10 Chicago Bears 3:15 p.m. L, 0-26
Sun., Sept. 17 New Orleans Saints (Gold Pkg.) 12 noon L, 27-34
Sun., Sept. 24 @ Detroit Lions 12 noon W, 31-24
Mon., Oct. 2 @ Philadelphia Eagles 7:30 p.m. L, 9-31
Sun., Oct. 8 St. Louis Rams 12 noon L, 20-23
Sun., Oct. 15 Open Date
Sun., Oct. 22 @ Miami Dolphins 12 noon W, 34-24
Sun., Oct. 29 Arizona Cardinals 12 noon W, 31-14
Sun., Nov. 5 @ Buffalo Bills 12 noon L, 10-24
Sun., Nov. 12 @ Minnesota Vikings 12 noon W, 23-17
Sun., Nov. 19 New England Patriots (Gold Pkg.) 12 noon L, 0-35
Mon., Nov. 27 @ Seattle Seahawks 7:30 p.m. L, 24-34
Sun., Dec. 3 New York Jets 12 noon L, 10-38
Sun., Dec. 10 @ San Francisco 49ers 3:05 p.m. W, 30-19
Sun., Dec. 17 Detroit Lions 12 noon W, 17-9
Thurs., Dec. 21 Minnesota Vikings 7:00 p.m. W, 9-7
Sun., Dec. 31 @ Chicago Bears *7:15 p.m. W, 26-7

[Spaulding]

Kewl Avatar Packrulz! heh heh......one might argue that the Offense could not stay on the field thereby wearing our Defense out. As in 3 and out by our offense......Defense did a good job. You can only have so many 3 and outs by your offense before the "law of averages" says your Defense is going to wear down and give up points.

In effect, you could argue that Defense wins games, but you still need points on the board, and they could use a longer rest inbetween our offenses "3 and outs".

(had to edit this one to add.......Very kewl avatar Mrbojangles!)

That's a matter of opinion, some of the Packer games were only lost by a few points, like the Saints, Rams, and Seahawks games. Had the Packers won those they would've been in the playoffs.

Sun., Sept. 10 Chicago Bears 3:15 p.m. L, 0-26
Sun., Sept. 17 New Orleans Saints (Gold Pkg.) 12 noon L, 27-34
Sun., Sept. 24 @ Detroit Lions 12 noon W, 31-24
Mon., Oct. 2 @ Philadelphia Eagles 7:30 p.m. L, 9-31
Sun., Oct. 8 St. Louis Rams 12 noon L, 20-23
Sun., Oct. 15 Open Date
Sun., Oct. 22 @ Miami Dolphins 12 noon W, 34-24
Sun., Oct. 29 Arizona Cardinals 12 noon W, 31-14
Sun., Nov. 5 @ Buffalo Bills 12 noon L, 10-24
Sun., Nov. 12 @ Minnesota Vikings 12 noon W, 23-17
Sun., Nov. 19 New England Patriots (Gold Pkg.) 12 noon L, 0-35
Mon., Nov. 27 @ Seattle Seahawks 7:30 p.m. L, 24-34
Sun., Dec. 3 New York Jets 12 noon L, 10-38
Sun., Dec. 10 @ San Francisco 49ers 3:05 p.m. W, 30-19
Sun., Dec. 17 Detroit Lions 12 noon W, 17-9
Thurs., Dec. 21 Minnesota Vikings 7:00 p.m. W, 9-7
Sun., Dec. 31 @ Chicago Bears *7:15 p.m. W, 26-7

Only problem I have with that Packrulz is that playoff teams don't get pounded 26-0, 35-0, and 38-10 (not including the 31-9 loss to the Eagles where we were completely outclassed in the 2nd after after leading 9-7).

This team could have been just as easily 5-11 or 6-10 (last Bears game with many Bear starters on the bench or having little drive to win or play hungry, the 2nd Vikings win when Chili make the sure fire loss move of starting Tavarious, etc.) as making the playoffs with one of those close wins.

The only loss in recent memory that hurt more than those three home debacles was the playoff loss to Atlanta and thinking I should have saved my money and drank at home versus pretty much passing out in the North end zone).

Our defensive players talent wise look solid, the x factor is the lose of bates and Crapenheimer screwing up the secondary. If they gell and play well then who knows - playoffs? In the AFC - not a chance, in the NFC sure what the heck.

Thanks for the kudos on the avatar. I've got an excessive collection so if anybody is looking for something and can't find it let me know and I'll try and help.

[packrulz]

Kewl Avatar Packrulz! heh heh......one might argue that the Offense could not stay on the field thereby wearing our Defense out. As in 3 and out by our offense......Defense did a good job. You can only have so many 3 and outs by your offense before the "law of averages" says your Defense is going to wear down and give up points.

In effect, you could argue that Defense wins games, but you still need points on the board, and they could use a longer rest inbetween our offenses "3 and outs".

(had to edit this one to add.......Very kewl avatar Mrbojangles!)

That's a matter of opinion, some of the Packer games were only lost by a few points, like the Saints, Rams, and Seahawks games. Had the Packers won those they would've been in the playoffs.

Sun., Sept. 10 Chicago Bears 3:15 p.m. L, 0-26
Sun., Sept. 17 New Orleans Saints (Gold Pkg.) 12 noon L, 27-34
Sun., Sept. 24 @ Detroit Lions 12 noon W, 31-24
Mon., Oct. 2 @ Philadelphia Eagles 7:30 p.m. L, 9-31
Sun., Oct. 8 St. Louis Rams 12 noon L, 20-23
Sun., Oct. 15 Open Date
Sun., Oct. 22 @ Miami Dolphins 12 noon W, 34-24
Sun., Oct. 29 Arizona Cardinals 12 noon W, 31-14
Sun., Nov. 5 @ Buffalo Bills 12 noon L, 10-24
Sun., Nov. 12 @ Minnesota Vikings 12 noon W, 23-17
Sun., Nov. 19 New England Patriots (Gold Pkg.) 12 noon L, 0-35
Mon., Nov. 27 @ Seattle Seahawks 7:30 p.m. L, 24-34
Sun., Dec. 3 New York Jets 12 noon L, 10-38
Sun., Dec. 10 @ San Francisco 49ers 3:05 p.m. W, 30-19
Sun., Dec. 17 Detroit Lions 12 noon W, 17-9
Thurs., Dec. 21 Minnesota Vikings 7:00 p.m. W, 9-7
Sun., Dec. 31 @ Chicago Bears *7:15 p.m. W, 26-7

Only problem I have with that Packrulz is that playoff teams don't get pounded 26-0, 35-0, and 38-10 (not including the 31-9 loss to the Eagles where we were completely outclassed in the 2nd after after leading 9-7).

This team could have been just as easily 5-11 or 6-10 (last Bears game with many Bear starters on the bench or having little drive to win or play hungry, the 2nd Vikings win when Chili make the sure fire loss move of starting Tavarious, etc.) as making the playoffs with one of those close wins.

The only loss in recent memory that hurt more than those three home debacles was the playoff loss to Atlanta and thinking I should have saved my money and drank at home versus pretty much passing out in the North end zone).

Our defensive players talent wise look solid, the x factor is the lose of bates and Crapenheimer screwing up the secondary. If they gell and play well then who knows - playoffs? In the AFC - not a chance, in the NFC sure what the heck.

Thanks for the kudos on the avatar. I've got an excessive collection so if anybody is looking for something and can't find it let me know and I'll try and help.

Yes, those were glaring at me and I still feel the pain of those losses but I feel those can be attributed to the rookies on the offensive line, don't you think? I do agree there were a lot of dropped passes but part of that is installing a new offense and getting the timing down. My point is the defense wasn't so great either so to say they should've drafted an offensive player in the 1st round just for the sake of filling a need is stupid. You draft the best player availiable, regardless of need, and I think TT was trying to do that.

[Packgator]

Ted's first first round pick for the Packers: Aaron Rogers. TT's way of saying "Hey Brett, I want you gone, and I am not going to do anything to help this offense."

Teds third first round pick for the Packers: Justin Harrell. Another "safe" pick? Not exactly......a little injury history here. Was there another "silent message" sent to Favre? I think so.

Those are two absurd and ridiculous comments.

[Packgator]

I can tell you one thing, If I were the starting QB for the Packers from the time that TT took over up til now.........I would have been cut for sure.

Gee, ya think so.

[The Leaper]

Thompson's in a no-win situation with the TT haters here.

If Ted takes Cleveland's offer, he gets lambasted for abandoning Favre and building for the future at the expense of the present.

If Ted doesn't take Cleveland's offer, he gets lambasted for not having the killer instinct and being conservative.

I disagree.

There were no offensive players of note left at #16...and we could've got a reasonably good one with Cleveland's 2nd round pick.

The Browns offer simply wasn't near good enough when there was a guy on the board Thompson felt was worth the pick.

[Charles Woodson]

That deal makes way too much sense for Ted Thompson to go for it and desert his agenda.

That is exactly what TT is all about. I agree 100% with Merlin when he says TT wants it to be his team.

I guess i cant say alot because we dont know how this guy will turn out, but one things for sure that TT no long ever again has the excuse of not signing/picking a guy solely on the fact that he
gets injured. I think thats the thing that pissed me off so much. I guess i think that in value and everything TT really screwed the pooch on this one. I mean he could have gotten the most value by doing this:


First move is to trade down with the Broncos
Jaguars got a 3rd and a 5th to move back 4 spots. That way in my opionion the Harrell pick wouldnt quite be such a reach. and if TT was so in love with him then theres no stopping him picking him. But if hes not there then

Secound move is to trade down with Clevland...
That way you just sucked draft picks out of 2 teams. Your still ahead of Dallas so that assumes that your getting a better deal. This way your set for the future and now...

Third move, and this is still if TT wants, he can move our original 2nd and trade with the Jets (if he still wanted to)

So you have 3 round 3 selections, I make a trade to move up with ethier broncos or miami:

Miami's pick:235
Denvers pick:240

Packers-3+5+6+6+6=237


that way our draft picks look like this

Clevlands 1 next year
2(36) 2(63)
3(70) 3(78) 3(89)
4(119)
5(159(i think)
7(228) 7(293)


And this is what i would do with those picks

2-Ethier Rice, Jarrett, or Smith

2-Pittman

3-Marcus McCauley

3-Tank Tyler

3-Aaron Rouse

4-Allen Barbe

5-David Clowney

7-Michael Allen

7-Darius Walker

please excues spelling
Also i know that there are alot of IFs in this and most likely a few flaws. this is just how i would do it.

[The Shadow]

I dont think any GM would put up with his QB walking into his office and Bitch Slapping the living shit out of him. Lucky for Teddy that Favre has a much nicer temperment than me.

And I'm sure that former NFL linebacker Thompson would be quaking in his boots at the sight of you mincing into his office just a'fuming with rage.

[BallHawk]

CW,

It's very possible that if we trade down with the Broncos that we don't get Harrell. Also, it's foolish to assume that we can make all these trades without any ripple effect. One trade effects several more, which then effects the players and where they go.

Also, the idea that TT is sabotaging the team to make it his own is just unrealistic. Do you honestly think that TT, to boost his own ego, would make the team worse? It's just ludacris.

And who cares about "value"? Value is just an illusion created by draft experts to make talk. Oh, we got 5th round value in the 3rd round? That blows. We got a 3rd round value in the 5th round? Fantastic.

Value means nothing. It's the players you draft that makes the difference, not the "value" at which you get them.

[Charles Woodson]

Also, the idea that TT is sabotaging the team to make it his own is just unrealistic. Do you honestly think that TT, to boost his own ego, would make the team worse? It's just ludacris.



I dont belive that TT is making the team worse on purpose but i belive that TT would be happier than sad if Brett had retired. It gives TT the feeling that its his team. Makes him feel in control that all of the main parts have been put together through him. But i do belive that that draft could have happened. I would say the browns trade deffinetly even after the broncos trade. Basically i had made that with the mindset that even if harrell was or wasnt there we would still be trade partners with the browns.

[PackerBlues]

Overall, no....he isnt making the team any worse. (How could it get any worse?) He just isnt fixing that part of the team that puts points on the board.

He is shoring up the defense, yes. He has just addressed special teams. Actually most of his picks seem to be destined for the special teams unit.

But again, nothing to improve our offense. Argue this point all you want. Some of us are not blinded by TTLove.

awww who knows maybe Teddy will suprise us all and pick up a free agent. :shock:

[retailguy]

.

awww who knows maybe Teddy will suprise us all and pick up a free agent. :shock:


And, in May, just who would that be? Aren't most of the guys who could help us, at least in a starting role, gone already?

Do we really need anymore backups, considering he's drafted 33 guys in the last 3 years? How many backups do you need?

[PackerBlues]

Yeah, sorry about that. Its kind of hard to convey heavily dripping sarcasm through the written word.

[Lurker64]

(How could it get any worse?)

Mike Sherman could still be the GM, and we could be cap hell with cap hell and have no picks left next year.


But again, nothing to improve our offense. Argue this point all you want. Some of us are not blinded by TTLove.

Out of a draft class of 11 people, 8 players are destined to play offense or score points. I don't see how that can possibly be construed as "doing nothing" to improve the offense. Before you say "the guys we drafted won't help", please keep in mind that you haven't seen a one of them play a down of football in a Packer uniform.


awww who knows maybe Teddy will suprise us all and pick up a free agent. :shock:

Is there anybody worth signing? Was there ever? Face it, it's a bad free agency year. People were overpaying for mediocrity. Other than the fullback who went to Oakland, I don't think there was a single player in free agency this year that I actually wanted, no matter who our GM was.

(In all honesty though, I expect Ted to sign some June 1 cuts, specifically some of Atlanta's linemen who get cut since Petrino will be abandoning the ZBS.)

[MJZiggy]

That's what the :roll: is for... :P

[Charles Woodson]

Is there anybody worth signing? Was there ever? Face it, it's a bad free a

We can agree about a bad f.a. class but there were some good people. I would have taken the FB Griffith, T.E. Eric Johnson, Saftey-Deion Grant or even Ken hamlin.

[MJZiggy]

IIRC Hamlin sat for a long time before getting signed. Anyone know why?

[RashanGary]

I think this team is a lot better mostly because we acctually had a good draft last year, something we haven't had becasue a dreadfull GM was here for 4 years and Thompson had a rough first swing.

People forget that some teams, teams taht acctually draft well, do get better from within. WE're used to our picks flopping with the exception of what? 6 guys who are half way decent in 4 years?

I understadn that people assume taht we won't get better from within but I think most of that is because during the last 5 years, that is all we've known.

I'm very excited about the defense and I think the better pass pro and better run blocking is going be be all the difference. Not because we did all these big things but becasue we have good, promising youth. Guys who love football and showed promise last year, guys like Hawk, Jennings, Colledge, Spitz, Moll and even Jolly or Blackmon.

We didn't lose any cap casualties except for an over 30 RB who is 3 years past being special. We replaced old legs with young legs. We're in good shape guys. Don't let these guys get you down, they can't help that they remember Shermans bad drafts never progressing and project that on the next guy.

[Scott Campbell]

Ted is bad.
Ted is evil.
Ted's related to this guy:

http://www.consumerist.com/consumer/images/Spong-Of-Satan.jpg

[Bretsky]

I think this team is a lot better mostly because we acctually had a good draft last year, something we haven't had becasue a dreadfull GM was here for 4 years and Thompson had a rough first swing.

People forget that some teams, teams taht acctually draft well, do get better from within. WE're used to our picks flopping with the exception of what? 6 guys who are half way decent in 4 years?

I understadn that people assume taht we won't get better from within but I think most of that is because during the last 5 years, that is all we've known.

I'm very excited about the defense and I think the better pass pro and better run blocking is going be be all the difference. Not because we did all these big things but becasue we have good, promising youth. Guys who love football and showed promise last year, guys like Hawk, Jennings, Colledge, Spitz, Moll and even Jolly or Blackmon.

We didn't lose any cap casualties except for an over 30 RB who is 3 years past being special. We replaced old legs with young legs. We're in good shape guys. Don't let these guys get you down, they can't help that they remember Shermans bad drafts never progressing and project that on the next guy.


Funny call with the name change

I thought you were going to go out on a limb with the name change and your unwavering support of the Snapper and change your name to our new 3rd round draft choice WR that several of us did not like.

Cheers,
B

[HarveyWallbangers]

Actually, he should change it to BrandonJackson.

He had 2005 2nd round pick Nick Collins originally.
Then, 2006 2nd round pick Greg Jennings.
He should stay with the 2nd round picks.

[b bulldog]

i thought that was his m.o. also, the second rounders.

[BallHawk]

Change it back Greg, you're screwing with the Football Gods. :shock:

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Change it to the kickers name. 8-)

[BooHoo]

I think I liked you better as Nick. :lol: :lol:

[MasonCrosby]

maybe i'll take the kickers name...

[mraynrand]

I think this team is a lot better mostly because we acctually had a good draft last year, something we haven't had becasue a dreadfull GM was here for 4 years and Thompson had a rough first swing.

People forget that some teams, teams taht acctually draft well, do get better from within.
Don't let these guys get you down, they can't help that they remember Shermans bad drafts never progressing and project that on the next guy.

I can't figure out whether guys like you are ignorant or whether you willfully ignore facts that contradict your overeaching blanket proclamations. Sherman was Coach/GM for three (not four) years 2002-2005.

What do you think was the biggest factor in last years draft 'success' (assuming many of the players will be very good as opposed to just so-so like last year - Hawk was OK, Jennings was hurt, the O-linemen were just adequate (Colledge, Spitz) or marginal (Moll))? I'll tell you - It was the Fact that the Packers had the #5 pick and the #5 position in every round - and they had an extra #2 from trading Walker. High round picks allow you to trade down and keep a decent draft position in the round in which you traded down. Sherman never had a pick above #20 - he had to trade a #2 to move up to get Walker.

About Sherman's drafts/trades - One was excellent (2002), one was so-so (2003) and one was dismal (2004). That's the truth. 2002 yeiled 2 pro-bowlers, solid backups; trading for Glenn solidified the WR postion for most of one year, until injury.

I honestly don't care that you didn't like Sherman - the guy had some major problems (good coach, so-so GM), but try to mix a little reality in with your proclamations.

[Merlin]

I don't agree with you that somehow TT is so proud that he would undermine Favre in order to get rid of him, so he can then get playmakers for Rodgers since Rodgers is his guy. I'm sorry, Merlin, but I just don't buy that TT is that full of himself that he'd be willing to risk his job in order to get Favre to leave so Green Bay will become Ted's team. That just seems pretty far out there.

But of course you are entitled to your opinion. That's why we're here - to share them.

It seems some others share the same opinions as I. With that said, I know Keyshawn Johnson just got cut. I am sure we could go get him pretty cheap for a one year deal. He would be some insurance in case K-Rob didn't come back or at the very least veteran depth until he came back. With DD, Jennings, Johnson and K-Rob, that would give Favre some proven targets to throw to and also give defenses fits in a 3-4 WR package. Alas, this will not be either. We need Favre to groom another receiver for Rodgers out of the rookies we have and the ones we drafted...

[PackerBlues]

Hey mraynrand, I couldnt agree with you more. Things were up and down during Shermans Tenure, but injury was the number one reason for it. Anyone that wants to argue about this, I will help you, here are 3 links that will give you all the info you need. Check em out and throw out your stats. This should be interesting.



Here is the Packers History, read up on Shermans tenure. (a lot of good history on wolf here too, pretty kewl)


http://www.packers.com/history/birth_of_a_team_and_a_legend/#chapter13


Here is a link for every Packer draft from 1982-this years draft.


http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/teams/GB


This one shows the current team and how it was built. 7 guys still on the roster from the Ron Wolf era. 9 guys still on the roster from the Sherman era. (I am thinking his better picks and FA pick ups were sent packing by Teddy.) The rest of the team is made up of Ted's draft picks and free agent pick ups.

Suprisingly, this also points out that I can no longer say that TT hates free agents............not that i would recognise the names of more than maybe 4 or 5 of em, lol.


http://www.packers.com/team/how_built/

Knock yourselves out, I expect a slugfest!

(p.s. I find it interesting that they didnt update the team history past the point where Mike McCarthy was hired as head coach. not knocking McCarthy, I just wonder if they are having a hard time putting our recent history into words, lol)

[Patler]

I always thought Sherman was a good coach, because of his record. However, after reflecting on this, I'm not sure any longer.

In 2005 Sherman rigidly stuck to the offensive scheme that had worked for him in the past, even though he had inexperienced running backs, inexperienced receivers and instability in the offensive line. He never changed during the season, and ran the same tired old plays and formations that had worked for him since 2000. He asked the guards to be Wahle and Rivera, and they weren't capable of doing that.

Last year McCarthy adapted. He did not run the offense he had hoped to. He had inexperienced receivers, just as Sherman had the year before. He had rookie inexperienced guards, just as Sherman did. He had injuries in the O-line (unlike Sherman), lost Tauscher for a good part of the year and had to start 3 rookies. Greene missed a couple games, Morrency missed games. He had a rookie punter and an inexperienced placekicker. However, he adapted, he found ways to get production and to compensate. He did not expect the young players to do what they were not yet capable of doing. He gave them help.

The result, Sherman was 4-12 in 2005, and McCarthy was 8-8 in 2006.

One year is too short of a time to evaluate a coach, but I am hopeful that McCarthy will be good. My concern is that in the blowout losses he didn't seem to have an "answer" in the second half to improve the situation.

[Packnut]

I always thought Sherman was a good coach, because of his record. However, after reflecting on this, I'm not sure any longer.

In 2005 Sherman rigidly stuck to the offensive scheme that had worked for him in the past, even though he had inexperienced running backs, inexperienced receivers and instability in the offensive line. He never changed during the season, and ran the same tired old plays and formations that had worked for him since 2000. He asked the guards to be Wahle and Rivera, and they weren't capable of doing that.

Last year McCarthy adapted. He did not run the offense he had hoped to. He had inexperienced receivers, just as Sherman had the year before. He had rookie inexperienced guards, just as Sherman did. He had injuries in the O-line (unlike Sherman), lost Tauscher for a good part of the year and had to start 3 rookies. Greene missed a couple games, Morrency missed games. He had a rookie punter and an inexperienced placekicker. However, he adapted, he found ways to get production and to compensate. He did not expect the young players to do what they were not yet capable of doing. He gave them help.

The result, Sherman was 4-12 in 2005, and McCarthy was 8-8 in 2006.

One year is too short of a time to evaluate a coach, but I am hopeful that McCarthy will be good. My concern is that in the blowout losses he didn't seem to have an "answer" in the second half to improve the situation.


Sherman had his ups and downs. He takes a bad rap here from many including myself, but it's often forgot that he was always picking much higher in the draft due to having winning teams. Let's also not forget that he produced one of the best screen teams around. His biggest weakness was as you pointed out, the ability to adapt on the fly.

However, he had some pretty good schemes, even if he held on to them to long. In any event, Shermy will more than likely always be remembered by the 4th and 26 play. Had that gone the other way, I wonder how history would have changed?

Still, it will always be an unfair comparison to judge Shermy and Teddy as GM's due to the already mentioned draft pick slots and also the huge difference in the salary cap numbers.

[mraynrand]

Patler,

I have to disagree about Sherman, to an extent. He did try to run his same stuff, even in the face of a collection of injuries and O-linemen that couldn't do what Wahle (especially) and Rivera could do. But he did adapt. Look at the games versus Chicago. He pretty much went to a passing attack with lots of underneath stuff - throwing to guys like Thurman and Chatman - the Packers were able to really move the ball, just not score. Injuries were a huge factor - losing Walker, Murphy, Green, Davenport, and Ferguson. There weren't many targets left.

McCarthy faced a similar situation, losing Martin and Tauscher midseason and the Packers were flushed by NE and the Jets - like Sherman was against Baltimore. Both teams were stricken with a paucity of talent on offense.

[Patler]

Its not entirely clear to me how many DIFFERENT trades the Browns and Cowboys made. Over the two days of the draft, the following occured:

The Browns used or traded the following spots from the Cowboys (rond & #overall):

1 - #22
2 - #55
6 - #195
6 - #200
7 - #234

The Cowboys used or traded the following from the Browns:

2 - #36
3 - #67
4 - #103
6 - #178
6 - #195
plus receicing the Browns #1 in 2008.


The talk has been that the Browns offered GB their first in 2008 and their second in 2007 for the Packers 1st in 2007 and second in 2007. There was some talk about trading spots with the Packers in later rounds as well. IF that is what was offered, I do not see much reason to do it. As others have said, it is difficult to assess what the 2008 pick is worth, a future is generally considered to have the value of the 16th pick in that round, since you never know where a team will finish. Why would you trade the 16th pick this year for the 16th pick next year just to move up a couple spots in the second round this year (#47 to #36)?

IF the same offer was made to the Cowboys (and I don't know exactly what was done) the Cowboys traded #22 this year for #16 next year, and moved from #55 in the second round this year to #36 this year.

[mraynrand]

Shermy will more than likely always be remembered by the 4th and 26 play. Had that gone the other way, I wonder how history would have changed?


More for 4th and one, right? Shermy scapegoated Donatell for the 4th and 26. The reality is that Philly game finished Sherman. The death of Hatley (and Sherman's seeming refusal or inability to replace him), and the absurd reaction to the Philly loss (Tossing Donatell and replacing him with the ridiculous defensive schemes of Slow-wit; mishandling McKenzie; the 2004 draft). Those things just obliterated the guy. (Even so, the Packers had a pretty good offense in 2004). Somewhere along the line, either Sherman lacked the humility to get help or was too self rightous to admit to his flaws, but in any event, it ended up costing him his job. Still, Harlan was wrong to fire him as GM and try to leave him in as coach. He should have tossed him from both jobs right away - that would have been more fair to Sherman (probably easier to get a new job) and TT (able to hire his own guy right away). Akkk, I hate rehashing the past. But I will, just so long as people continue to paint Sherman as this horrible coach and or completely unsuccessful GM....

[mraynrand]

Its not entirely clear to me how many DIFFERENT trades the Browns and Cowboys made. Over the two days of the draft, the following occured:

The Browns used or traded the following spots from the Cowboys (rond & #overall):

1 - #22
2 - #55
6 - #195
6 - #200
7 - #234

The Cowboys used or traded the following from the Browns:

2 - #36
3 - #67
4 - #103
6 - #178
6 - #195
plus receicing the Browns #1 in 2008.


The talk has been that the Browns offered GB their first in 2008 and their second in 2007 for the Packers 1st in 2007 and second in 2007. There was some talk about trading spots with the Packers in later rounds as well. IF that is what was offered, I do not see much reason to do it. As others have said, it is difficult to assess what the 2008 pick is worth, a future is generally considered to have the value of the 16th pick in that round, since you never know where a team will finish. Why would you trade the 16th pick this year for the 16th pick next year just to move up a couple spots in the second round this year (#47 to #36)?

IF the same offer was made to the Cowboys (and I don't know exactly what was done) the Cowboys traded #22 this year for #16 next year, and moved from #55 in the second round this year to #36 this year.

I wouldn't have made the trade without getting the extra second round pick this year.

[Packnut]

Shermy will more than likely always be remembered by the 4th and 26 play. Had that gone the other way, I wonder how history would have changed?


More for 4th and one, right? Shermy scapegoated Donatell for the 4th and 26. The reality is that Philly game finished Sherman. The death of Hatley (and Sherman's seeming refusal or inability to replace him), and the absurd reaction to the Philly loss (Tossing Donatell and replacing him with the ridiculous defensive schemes of Slow-wit; mishandling McKenzie; the 2004 draft). Those things just obliterated the guy. (Even so, the Packers had a pretty good offense in 2004). Somewhere along the line, either Sherman lacked the humility to get help or was too self rightous to admit to his flaws, but in any event, it ended up costing him his job. Still, Harlan was wrong to fire him as GM and try to leave him in as coach. He should have tossed him from both jobs right away - that would have been more fair to Sherman (probably easier to get a new job) and TT (able to hire his own guy right away). Akkk, I hate rehashing the past. But I will, just so long as people continue to paint Sherman as this horrible coach and or completely unsuccessful GM....


I still believe and always will that he should have been fired after the Philly game. I'm the first to admit that I'm not as forgiving as some here are. I believe that these guys get paid good money and don't have the "right" to make mistakes. Excuses are for losers and success in the NFL is judged by winning plain and simple.

[Patler]

Patler,

I have to disagree about Sherman, to an extent. He did try to run his same stuff, even in the face of a collection of injuries and O-linemen that couldn't do what Wahle (especially) and Rivera could do. But he did adapt. Look at the games versus Chicago. He pretty much went to a passing attack with lots of underneath stuff - throwing to guys like Thurman and Chatman - the Packers were able to really move the ball, just not score. Injuries were a huge factor - losing Walker, Murphy, Green, Davenport, and Ferguson. There weren't many targets left.

McCarthy faced a similar situation, losing Martin and Tauscher midseason and the Packers were flushed by NE and the Jets - like Sherman was against Baltimore. Both teams were stricken with a paucity of talent on offense.

That's play calling more than offensive scheme changing, as I see it. Sherman does seem to come up with good game plans sometimes. But overall, through the season, the offense didn't change in either the running or the passing game.

The difference I see was that McCarthy really wants to throw to his TEs, but scrapped it last year to give his rookies help, even lining up the TEs in the backfield at times. He changed his entire passing attack for the season to adapt to the players he had. He even changed his running game to some extent, with somewhat fewer zone blocking running plays later in the year, although you might argue (as would I) that that was play just calling in the running game.

McCarthy adapted the scheme to the players, Sherman tried to make the players fit the scheme.

[Patler]

More for 4th and one, right? Shermy scapegoated Donatell for the 4th and 26. The reality is that Philly game finished Sherman. The death of Hatley (and Sherman's seeming refusal or inability to replace him), and the absurd reaction to the Philly loss (Tossing Donatell and replacing him with the ridiculous defensive schemes of Slow-wit; mishandling McKenzie; the 2004 draft). Those things just obliterated the guy. (Even so, the Packers had a pretty good offense in 2004). Somewhere along the line, either Sherman lacked the humility to get help or was too self rightous to admit to his flaws, but in any event, it ended up costing him his job. Still, Harlan was wrong to fire him as GM and try to leave him in as coach. He should have tossed him from both jobs right away - that would have been more fair to Sherman (probably easier to get a new job) and TT (able to hire his own guy right away). Akkk, I hate rehashing the past. But I will, just so long as people continue to paint Sherman as this horrible coach and or completely unsuccessful GM....

Overall, Sherman was unsuccessful as a coach and as a GM. He had some individual success in each, but judging his overall performance he was unsuccesful at both, not withstanding his won/loss record.

Sherman benefitted immensely from playing 6 games each year against Chicago, MN and Detroit. None of them had a winning record during the Sherman years. Sherman's record against teams with winning records for the season was quite poor, he lost more than he won. Playing Chicago, MN and Detroit twice each season, along with another soft team or two gave him a real good chance at a winning season each year, even with an average team. Especially when he had a HOF quarterback still in his prime. I never felt his teams were quite as good as their records, because of who they played. I think their early playoff losses, some playoff trouncings, and their poor records against winning teams support that.

The 2006 Packers were basically in the same boat, and their 8-8 record indicated what they were, a mediocre team.

[RashanGary]

Harlan knew what he was doing when he fired Mike Sherman. I am certain of that.

Sherman got a healthy cap and:

Favre 33
Green 25
Henderson 31
Rivera 29
Wahle 24
Tauscher 24
Clifton 24
Driver 25
Sharper 27
McKenzie 25
Holliday 27
KGB 24



Thompson got a dreadfull cap situation and

Rivera 32 and coming into a contract year
Wahle 27 and coming into a contract year
Favre 36 nearing his end
Driver 29 nearing his end
Green 28 and then went out with a MAJOR injury
Walker 28 and went down with a MAJOR injury
Kamp *One good core player*
Corey Willaims *Decent core player*
Barnett *Good core player
Tauscher 28 nearing his end
Clifton 28 nearing his end
KGB 28 Losing more eveyr year
Sharper 30 with a bad contact and one more year left on his deal
Harris 29 and near the end

Sherman inherited 2 ELITE playmakers in their primes and Thompson inherited 2 who got injured right away and never made it back and 1 who is playing his last couple seasons. It's very hard to compare those two situations equally. Thompson clearly gets more time. HEll, the aging core that Sherman inherited is still a big part of why we're OK now. They'll all be retired in 2-3 years and only 4 or 5 core guys were replenished during Shermans GM stint. Pathetic if you ask me.

[retailguy]

Driver 29 nearing his end

Do you make this shit up as you go? This is ABSURD. The only reason that Donald Driver is a STAR receiver on the Green Bay Packers is because MIKE SHERMAN and his staff trained/coached him and gave him an opportunity.

Perhaps you don't remember history very well, but in 2001, Driver fought for the 5th receiver with a guy by the name of CHARLES LEE. Lee almost got the job, and instead got waived and signed with Tampa Bay, where he played mediocre football for a couple years and then was out of the league. The exact numbers escape me, but Driver caught an average of roughly 20 balls his first THREE seasons in the league.

Driver has been SOLID every single year since 2002, and is the ONLY receiver that has been consistently healthy since then. I shudder to think what this team would look like if it wasn't for Donald Driver.







Green 28 and then went out with a MAJOR injury
Walker 28 and went down with a MAJOR injury



And this is SHERMAN'S fault how? This is pointless. There is no other words for just how absurd this is.




Harris 29 and near the end


NEAR THE END? Last year was one of his best seasons. He just keeps getting better, IN SPITE, of no speed. You are barking up the wrong tree. This is one of 4 or 5 of Sherman's BEST moves as GM, and you're saying he's "over the hill" and that makes it a BAD deal? WTF?

You have to be making this shit up as you go. There is NO other explanation, other than knocking your intelligence level and I'm not going there today..

Give it up and move on...

[Zool]

Driver 29 nearing his end

Do you make this shit up as you go? This is ABSURD. The only reason that Donald Driver is a STAR receiver on the Green Bay Packers is because MIKE SHERMAN and his staff trained/coached him and gave him an opportunity.

Perhaps you don't remember history very well, but in 2001, Driver fought for the 5th receiver with a guy by the name of CHARLES LEE. Lee almost got the job, and instead got waived and signed with Tampa Bay, where he played mediocre football for a couple years and then was out of the league. The exact numbers escape me, but Driver caught an average of roughly 20 balls his first THREE seasons in the league.

Driver has been SOLID every single year since 2002, and is the ONLY receiver that has been consistently healthy since then. I shudder to think what this team would look like if it wasn't for Donald Driver.







Green 28 and then went out with a MAJOR injury
Walker 28 and went down with a MAJOR injury



And this is SHERMAN'S fault how? This is pointless. There is no other words for just how absurd this is.




Harris 29 and near the end


NEAR THE END? Last year was one of his best seasons. He just keeps getting better, IN SPITE, of no speed. You are barking up the wrong tree. This is one of 4 or 5 of Sherman's BEST moves as GM, and you're saying he's "over the hill" and that makes it a BAD deal? WTF?

You have to be making this shit up as you go. There is NO other explanation, other than knocking your intelligence level and I'm not going there today..

Give it up and move on...Wow you're sensitive. It is possible to have a differing opinion.

[Packnut]

Driver 29 nearing his end

Do you make this shit up as you go? This is ABSURD. The only reason that Donald Driver is a STAR receiver on the Green Bay Packers is because MIKE SHERMAN and his staff trained/coached him and gave him an opportunity.

Perhaps you don't remember history very well, but in 2001, Driver fought for the 5th receiver with a guy by the name of CHARLES LEE. Lee almost got the job, and instead got waived and signed with Tampa Bay, where he played mediocre football for a couple years and then was out of the league. The exact numbers escape me, but Driver caught an average of roughly 20 balls his first THREE seasons in the league.

Driver has been SOLID every single year since 2002, and is the ONLY receiver that has been consistently healthy since then. I shudder to think what this team would look like if it wasn't for Donald Driver.







Green 28 and then went out with a MAJOR injury
Walker 28 and went down with a MAJOR injury



And this is SHERMAN'S fault how? This is pointless. There is no other words for just how absurd this is.




Harris 29 and near the end


NEAR THE END? Last year was one of his best seasons. He just keeps getting better, IN SPITE, of no speed. You are barking up the wrong tree. This is one of 4 or 5 of Sherman's BEST moves as GM, and you're saying he's "over the hill" and that makes it a BAD deal? WTF?

You have to be making this shit up as you go. There is NO other explanation, other than knocking your intelligence level and I'm not going there today..

Give it up and move on...


It's the art of distortion and or just plan making shit up in order to suit one's opinions. It's used when trying to make a point that is pretty much worthless and without any substance.....

[retailguy]

Wow you're sensitive. It is possible to have a differing opinion.

You know what Zool - sometimes opinions are wrong, and completely disproven by facts, and I'm tired of going "sideways" into the damn alley with this guy over stupid statements he can't seem to stop making. If he just stuck with "reality" he's entitled to his opinion.

The problem is that reality isn't enough, so he must continually EXAGGERATE what is actually happening to make Thompson some sort of victim. The guy makes a couple million a year and is perfectly capable of living/dying by his own decisions.

If you don't like how I post, just move on, and resist having to point it out.

[BobDobbs]

I think there is something else to take Sherman to task for and that is his hiring and retention of staff. It is too early to judge McCarthy. But, Holmgren's assistants went on to pursue promotions. Andy Reid is the best example. But Sherman was a good TE Coach, Fritz and Rhodes were great D coodinators, Sherm Lewis was a good O coodinator.

Under Sherman I just don't think the staff was as strong, because he didn't take criticism well. That may not be right, but we certainly did not have the same quality of D-coodinator. Also, coaches seemed to jump ship more to take equivalent positions or positions on staff in the college ranks. I got the feeling that many coaches didn't want to work under Sherman or at least didn't feel that they would get a chance to be promoted.

Again we'll have to judge McCarthy later, but a big part of a Head Coaches job is hiring and delegation of responsibilities, not just Xs and Os.

[Patler]

That's a pretty good summary of the situation.

Sherman inherited a lot of core players either in their prime, or still on the way up. TT inherited those same players, but 5 years later when their best years were behind them. To be fair, there were a few additions by Sherman, like Barnett, Kampman and Walker, but overall it was an aging roster.

People tend to overlook the quality of some of the players that Wolf inherited, prefering to think he inherited nothing and built it from scratch. But, look at the list of players that were already in GB when Wolf came on board:

Don Majkowski
Ken Ruetgers
Rich Moran
Jackie Harris
Sterling Sharpe

Matt Brock
Bryce Paup
Brian Noble
Johnny Holland
Tony Bennett
Scott Stephen
Leroy Butler
Mark Lee
Mark Murphy
Chuck Cecil

Chris Jacke.

Especially at linebacker and the defensive backfield, the players were already there. The kicker was there.

Paup, Noble, Holland and Bennett is a pretty darn good group in a 3-4, with Stephen as a reserve.

Butler, Lee, Murphy and Cecil is a pretty good core of DBs.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I also think Sherman got a better roster. Most of our core players were still reaching their prime. However, I do think that a lot of your assessments are wrong. No way is Harris, Driver, Clifton, Tauscher, and even KGB near the end when TT got the job. All of the players listed played equally as good with TT as they did with Sherman.

[Patler]

I think the point is that you have to start thinking about replacements for Driver and Harris, especially Harris.

I don't look at Clifton and Ttauscher really as being old. Tackles seem to hang on a long time. Clifton is a bit iffy because of the leg problems he has had, so you do need a quality backup for him. If they are healthy, you could put off looking for their replacements for another 2 or 3 seasons, at least.

[retailguy]

I think the point is that you have to start thinking about replacements for Driver and Harris, especially Harris.

I don't look at Clifton and Ttauscher really as being old. Tackles seem to hang on a long time. Clifton is a bit iffy because of the leg problems he has had, so you do need a quality backup for him. If they are healthy, you could put off looking for their replacements for another 2 or 3 seasons, at least.

And a very valid point that is. You almost always need to look at replacements.

I do look at Clifton as being old. Perhaps thats because I have bad knees and know from personal experience they are not likely to improve. Looking for an OT for depth was a prudent move.

I seriously question whether Cliffy will get through this season. We'll see... Tauscher is in "his prime", whatever that means and should be a "rock", well in a pillsbury way, anyhow, for many seasons to come.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm tired of going "sideways" into the damn alley with this guy over stupid statements he can't seem to stop making. If he just stuck with "reality" he's entitled to his opinion.

I think there are a lot of people who feel there are other people like this. There are some people that just keep saying the same things over and over. It's like a political thread.

It is my opinion that a majority of fair people would say that Sherman was a decent to solid coach who did NOT do well as GM. They'd also say that Thompson has done some good things (drafts)--while doing poorly in others (FAs), but that he should get more time to build this thing. He hasn't been a complete stiff, and his plan hasn't had enough time to bear fruit yet. I know everybody wants to win one for Brett, but that does little for long-term viability for the franchise--which is what Thompson is responsible for. This franchise was not in great shape when he took over. I think it's foolish to state otherwise, but that is my opinion. This team wasn't ready to challenge for a Super Bowl when Thompson took over. Thompson will be given another couple of years. After that, he can be judged fairly. If the team is stuck around 8-8 or worse, he'll be gone.

Even better are the people who belittle the other side when stating their opinion. It only makes their argument weaker in most people's eyes.

BTW, have we decided who gets your Kool-Aid avartar?
:D

[Patler]

Starting offensive lineups inherited by Sherman, the GM vs TT. That is, these are the starting lineups in 2000 and 2004, the years before each took over as GM:

Schroeder/Driver
Clifton/Clifton
Verba/Wahle
Winters/Ruegamer (for Flanagan who was injured)
Rivera/Rivera
Tauscher/Tauscher
Franks/Franks
Freeman/Walker
Favre/Favre
Green/Green
Henderson/Henderson

An interesting thing is that of the changes that occured, Driver for Schroeder, Wahle for Verba, Flanagan for Winters, and Walker for Freeman, ALL except Walker were actually brought in by Wolf. They were there when Sherman took over.

Sherman had a good offense, but he inherited very good players on offense, and most if not all were young and on the way up. To his credit, he added Walker to it.

It's not surprising that now, seven seasons later, TT has had to make a lot of changes on offense. It was a very aging roster on offense.

The defense inherited by Sherman was mediocre, he made a lot of changes and it was still mediocre when TT took over. He did bring in several good players, like Kampman, Barnett and Harris; but he didn't improve it much with the changes he made. TT has continued with the changes. We'll see if it is better or not.

It appears that Sherman inherited a strong offense, and needed to build the defense. TT inherited the same, but now aged offense, and a wimpy defense. TT really needed to rebuild both sides of the ball when he took over.

[PackerTimer]

Some of you crack me up. I simply cannot believe that you can criticize somebody for making stuff up about Sherman when some of you routinely turn to fiction to bash TT. You claim he could have done this or he should have done that or he had this guy and failed to close the deal. The fact of the matter is, you don't know crap. If you want to go on bashing TT, I have no problem with that. His opinions about Sherman are every bit as valid as your opinions about TT.

[packinpatland]

I think the point is that you have to start thinking about replacements for Driver and Harris, especially Harris.

I don't look at Clifton and Ttauscher really as being old. Tackles seem to hang on a long time. Clifton is a bit iffy because of the leg problems he has had, so you do need a quality backup for him. If they are healthy, you could put off looking for their replacements for another 2 or 3 seasons, at least.

Is Tauscher all healed up adequately?

[Patler]

The true character of TT as a general manager will not be known until the team is "close." Can he pull the trigger for a critical free agent or two who can make the difference between a playoff challenging team and a playoff favorite?

Two years ago Thompson had very little salary-cap room in which to play the free agent market, and he brought in only one of any significance, Klemm, while re-signing Franks. Last year, he actually signed quite a few free agents, including Pickett, Woodson and Manual who are not inexpensive, and cheaper free agents like Taylor, White, Boerigter, and Gardner who had a lot of experience, while also hanging onto Kampman and extending Driver and Wells. This year, he has obviously been very quiet in the free agent market, but he has kept Barnett and Jenkins while also extending Harris.

The question we should ask ourselves is this, was there really anyone available that could have had a significant impact on the team who would not have cost an inappropriately high portion of the salary cap? We won't know the answer until we see if there really are any RBs, WRs beyond Driver and Jennings, or safeties on this team or not. If the ones we have are miserable during the season, then TT will be open for criticism in letting Green go or not signing a back, receiver or safety. If the ones we have are reasonably competent, TT will have made wise choices in preserving the cap AND in getting the roster younger..

[retailguy]

Some of you crack me up. I simply cannot believe that you can criticize somebody for making stuff up about Sherman when some of you routinely turn to fiction to bash TT. You claim he could have done this or he should have done that or he had this guy and failed to close the deal. The fact of the matter is, you don't know crap. If you want to go on bashing TT, I have no problem with that. His opinions about Sherman are every bit as valid as your opinions about TT.

please point to one piece of fiction that I have personally said against Ted Thompson.

[Patler]

I think the point is that you have to start thinking about replacements for Driver and Harris, especially Harris.

I don't look at Clifton and Ttauscher really as being old. Tackles seem to hang on a long time. Clifton is a bit iffy because of the leg problems he has had, so you do need a quality backup for him. If they are healthy, you could put off looking for their replacements for another 2 or 3 seasons, at least.

Is Tauscher all healed up adequately?

Considering that he was healed enough to start the last two games of the 2006 season, I would expect he should be fine by the start of the 2007 season.

[PackerTimer]

please point to one piece of fiction that I have personally said against Ted Thompson.

The comment wasn't pointed at you directly but general examples are people still claiming that TT is to blame for the failure of the Moss deal or my personal favorite the always popular TT is trying to push Farve out by dismantling the offense schtick. In all likelihood, neither of these are true and yet they are brought up countless times.

[Patler]

I do look at Clifton as being old. Perhaps thats because I have bad knees and know from personal experience they are not likely to improve. Looking for an OT for depth was a prudent move.

I seriously question whether Cliffy will get through this season. We'll see... Tauscher is in "his prime", whatever that means and should be a "rock", well in a pillsbury way, anyhow, for many seasons to come.

The funny thing is, since he was hurt in 2002, Clifton has missed only one game in the last 64 games (four seasons). The one he missed was because of illness last year. So far, he continues to answer the bell each and every week. I expect the Packers will give him some more "off time" during the weeks this year, much like they did the last few years of Earl Dotson's career, as his back gave him more and more problems.

[swede]

FIRST:

I'm a pretty big TT supporter. And every time I do get ticked off at TT I learn something that seems to get him off the hook. For example, I loved the idea of picking up Justin Griffith to be our FB. He signed for a measly couple of mil with, of all places, Oakland and I was HONKED.

Later I found out that GB had offered more money but the kid wanted to hook up with an old coach that was part of the new Raider regime. The only way to fight that kind of thing is by throwing too much money at a good, but not special, player.

I am likely to support TT for at least another year, and I hope that his faith in his coaching talent--even more than the playing talent--has been well-placed. If so, this team may get better. His draft and his FA work suggest that either a) he believes that many important parts to this team are already here, or b) he has a pathological inability to do a single goddam thing the masses are mooing at him to do.

AND:

I sense an influx of new members since the draft, and I want to warmly welcome all new posters. We that have been here since the beginining argue pretty fiercely at times. Watch as the issues come and go and you will find that this is a pretty entertaining and informative place to be. What may look like mouth-foaming attacks are pretty much friendly banter done the testosterone way. (apologies to Zig, 007, etc.)

[Charles Woodson]

Later I found out that GB had offered more money but the kid wanted to hook up with an old coach that was part of the new Raider regime. The only way to fight that kind of thing is by throwing too much money at a good, but not special, player.


where did u hear that?

[swede]

Later I found out that GB had offered more money but the kid wanted to hook up with an old coach that was part of the new Raider regime. The only way to fight that kind of thing is by throwing too much money at a good, but not special, player.


where did u hear that?

I thought someone threw it out here.

Both Atlanta and the Raiders have had coaching changes. A coach from Atlanta is now with the Raiders. I'll check coaching bios on the Raider website.

[Patler]

Later I found out that GB had offered more money but the kid wanted to hook up with an old coach that was part of the new Raider regime. The only way to fight that kind of thing is by throwing too much money at a good, but not special, player.


where did u hear that?

I thought someone threw it out here.

Both Atlanta and the Raiders have had coaching changes. A coach from Atlanta is now with the Raiders. I'll check coaching bios on the Raider website.

That was printed in one of the GB or Milwaukee newspapers. I remember it as well.

[swede]

Greg Knapp, the offensive coordinator for the Raiders, worked for Atlanta the last three years.

The money thing will be trickier to prove, but really, the guy got paid peanuts compared to other FAs

[PackerBlues]

This is in reply to some of the Sherman/TT arguments I have read in this post.


Wow, I am not impressed at all. I give you guys all the cannon fodder you need to show some sort of an argument........and what do we get? More speculation on what could have been if this had happened or what might have been if that had happened. LAAAMMMMMEEE!!!!!!


Ok, lets look at a couple of facts from the history of the Pack.

(http://www.packers.com/history/birth_of_a_team_and_a_legend/#chapter13)

Lets start with 2003 :

A return to the NFC Championship slipped painfully through the Packers' fingers in 2003. Donovan McNabb led the Eagles to a come-from-behind, 20-17 overtime win to end an emotional Packers run in the Divisional playoffs.

The loss snapped a memorable five-game winning streak. The stretch included changes to three of the most-revered records in Packers history (Forrest Gregg's 33-year-old consecutive-games streak, broken by Favre; Jim Taylor's 41-year-old season rushing record, Green; and Don Hutson's 58-year-old career scoring mark, Ryan Longwell). One day after the death of his father, Favre turned in the best game of his career, throwing for four TDs in a 41-7 win at Oakland. Then, Green Bay captured an improbable division title in the last two minutes of the season, when Arizona upset Minnesota and the Lambeau Field crowd broke the news to the Packers. Green Bay was in position to pass the Vikings thanks to its 7-2 record after the bye.

Green spearheaded the best running offense in Packers history, as the club captured nearly every franchise rushing mark. Favre led the NFL in TD passes a fourth time to tie a league record, throwing 19 of his 32 scores with a broken right thumb.



Now, what FACTS can we get from that? FACTS: The 3 records mentioned were all broken under Shermans Tenure, using his coaching. Green smashed records on the ground, Favre led the NFL in TD passes a 4th time.....with a broken right thumb. Green fumbled a lot, Sherman stuck with him. Favre had a broken thumb on his throwing hand....Sherman let him play. Again, That was in 2003.



Now, moving on to 2004 :


Adding to the hallmark of Sherman's tenure, the Packers overcame more adversity in 2004 to finish 10-6, winning a third straight division title. After an emotional kickoff-weekend win on a Monday night at Carolina, the defending NFC champion, Green Bay dropped four straight, its roughest start (1-4) since 1991.

But the team answered with a 38-10 win at Detroit, and kicked off a six-game winning streak. In fact, Green Bay went 9-2 down the stretch. Only the league's two best teams, Pittsburgh (11-0) and New England (10-2), had better marks over the season's final 12 weeks. Four of those nine wins came on Longwell's last-second field goals.

One year after erasing the franchise rushing record, most of the same personnel established the team marks for total offense and net passing. The season's peak came on Christmas Eve in Minnesota, when the team captured the division title with a 34-31 win over the Vikings. However, just two weeks later the same Vikings avenged the loss with a 31-17 win in a Wild Card playoff at Lambeau Field.



Now a few Facts from 2004. FACTS: The season started poorly, yet Sherman the coach, kept the team playing.....playing as good as any team in the league. See the stats for total offense and net passing? How does that happen under a guy who you say was a terrible coach?
I can already hear those of you who seem to enjoy sidestepping facts say "yeah, but we lost to the Vikings in the playoffs". That would be ignoring the fact that after such a rocky start......THEY STILL MADE THE PLAYOFFS!!!!
It was exciting, it was fun to watch, the drama was there, the Rivalry mattered.



Moving on to 2005, Teddy takes over. Gets rid of Mike Wahle and Marco Rivera (among others).....replaces them with SHIT.
Only 37 minutes into the 2005 regular season, the Packers lost leading receiver Javon Walker (knee). In the ensuing weeks, the team also lost starting halfback Green (quadricep) and his top backup Najeh Davenport (ankle) to season-ending injuries, while other injuries limited starting tight end Bubba Franks (knee, back), WR Robert Ferguson (knee) and C Mike Flanagan (sports hernia) for much of the year.

On defense, the Packers ranked seventh overall and were top-ranked against the pass. The team outgained opposing offenses in 12 of 16 games and actually had outscored them through the first 11 games.
Nice stats, except they still ended up 4-12, the Packers worst record since the 1991 season.

Let me say right now, anyone that would ignore the decimated roster (Thank Teddy for his fair share of it), and still blame Sherman for the 2005 season being so horrible........is a delusional half witted idiot. (and you can quote me on that.....feel free!)

[swede]

This is in reply to some of the Sherman/TT arguments I have read in this post.


Wow, I am not impressed at all. I give you guys all the cannon fodder you need to show some sort of an argument........and what do we get? More speculation on what could have been if this had happened or what might have been if that had happened. LAAAMMMMMEEE!!!!!!


Ok, lets look at a couple of facts from the history of the Pack.

(http://www.packers.com/history/birth_of_a_team_and_a_legend/#chapter13)

Lets start with 2003 :

A return to the NFC Championship slipped painfully through the Packers' fingers in 2003. Donovan McNabb led the Eagles to a come-from-behind, 20-17 overtime win to end an emotional Packers run in the Divisional playoffs.

The loss snapped a memorable five-game winning streak. The stretch included changes to three of the most-revered records in Packers history (Forrest Gregg's 33-year-old consecutive-games streak, broken by Favre; Jim Taylor's 41-year-old season rushing record, Green; and Don Hutson's 58-year-old career scoring mark, Ryan Longwell). One day after the death of his father, Favre turned in the best game of his career, throwing for four TDs in a 41-7 win at Oakland. Then, Green Bay captured an improbable division title in the last two minutes of the season, when Arizona upset Minnesota and the Lambeau Field crowd broke the news to the Packers. Green Bay was in position to pass the Vikings thanks to its 7-2 record after the bye.

Green spearheaded the best running offense in Packers history, as the club captured nearly every franchise rushing mark. Favre led the NFL in TD passes a fourth time to tie a league record, throwing 19 of his 32 scores with a broken right thumb.



Now, what FACTS can we get from that? FACTS: The 3 records mentioned were all broken under Shermans Tenure, using his coaching. Green smashed records on the ground, Favre led the NFL in TD passes a 4th time.....with a broken right thumb. Green fumbled a lot, Sherman stuck with him. Favre had a broken thumb on his throwing hand....Sherman let him play. Again, That was in 2003.



Now, moving on to 2004 :


Adding to the hallmark of Sherman's tenure, the Packers overcame more adversity in 2004 to finish 10-6, winning a third straight division title. After an emotional kickoff-weekend win on a Monday night at Carolina, the defending NFC champion, Green Bay dropped four straight, its roughest start (1-4) since 1991.

But the team answered with a 38-10 win at Detroit, and kicked off a six-game winning streak. In fact, Green Bay went 9-2 down the stretch. Only the league's two best teams, Pittsburgh (11-0) and New England (10-2), had better marks over the season's final 12 weeks. Four of those nine wins came on Longwell's last-second field goals.

One year after erasing the franchise rushing record, most of the same personnel established the team marks for total offense and net passing. The season's peak came on Christmas Eve in Minnesota, when the team captured the division title with a 34-31 win over the Vikings. However, just two weeks later the same Vikings avenged the loss with a 31-17 win in a Wild Card playoff at Lambeau Field.



Now a few Facts from 2004. FACTS: The season started poorly, yet Sherman the coach, kept the team playing.....playing as good as any team in the league. See the stats for total offense and net passing? How does that happen under a guy who you say was a terrible coach?
I can already hear those of you who seem to enjoy sidestepping facts say "yeah, but we lost to the Vikings in the playoffs". That would be ignoring the fact that after such a rocky start......THEY STILL MADE THE PLAYOFFS!!!!
It was exciting, it was fun to watch, the drama was there, the Rivalry mattered.



Moving on to 2005, Teddy takes over. Gets rid of Mike Wahle and Marco Rivera (among others).....replaces them with SHIT.
Only 37 minutes into the 2005 regular season, the Packers lost leading receiver Javon Walker (knee). In the ensuing weeks, the team also lost starting halfback Green (quadricep) and his top backup Najeh Davenport (ankle) to season-ending injuries, while other injuries limited starting tight end Bubba Franks (knee, back), WR Robert Ferguson (knee) and C Mike Flanagan (sports hernia) for much of the year.

On defense, the Packers ranked seventh overall and were top-ranked against the pass. The team outgained opposing offenses in 12 of 16 games and actually had outscored them through the first 11 games.
Nice stats, except they still ended up 4-12, the Packers worst record since the 1991 season.

Let me say right now, anyone that would ignore the decimated roster (Thank Teddy for his fair share of it), and still blame Sherman for the 2005 season being so horrible........is a delusional half witted idiot. (and you can quote me on that.....feel free!)

Welcome aboard! I can tell you feel at home here already.

[PackerBlues]

FIRST:


I sense an influx of new members since the draft, and I want to warmly welcome all new posters. We that have been here since the beginining argue pretty fiercely at times. Watch as the issues come and go and you will find that this is a pretty entertaining and informative place to be. What may look like mouth-foaming attacks are pretty much friendly banter done the testosterone way. (apologies to Zig, 007, etc.)

I just would like to point out, that a few of us have been coming to this site for quite a while. I have pointed quite a few of my friends to this site because every once in a while......you are bound to come across that littte bit of news that you hadnt heard yet, the wishfull rumor that makes a guy dream with drool runnin down his chin, and yes, lots of pissing matches over the stupidest shit.

I am actually suprised by the number of laughs i get reading some of the posts, and the coolest part about this site,.........If I want to get caught up on the latest news, rumors, stats and facts.....I can just come here and have it all in seconds. (as opposed to visiting espn's site, nfl.com, jsonline, packers.com.......ect. ect.)

Just thought I would point out that some of us have been here for a while,hangin out in the background, enjoying the forums but not participating. I think the main reason for that would be that a lot of times, the very first reply to any given posting, is something negative from another PACKER FAN :shock: without any real argument or opinion to back up the negative comment.
I can see where a person would get sick of posting any of his or her opinions or their points of view........fairly quickly.

[PackerBlues]

Welcome aboard! I can tell you feel at home here already.


Heh Heh......thanks.

[Scott Campbell]

Let me say right now, anyone that would ignore the decimated roster (Thank Teddy for his fair share of it), and still blame Sherman for the 2005 season being so horrible........is a delusional half witted idiot.


Does that include Bob Harlan (who fired Shermy), and every NFL owner and GM that had a head coaching vacancy in the last 2 years, and decided that Sherman wasn't worthy?

Now either they are all dellusional, or you are dellusional. My money is on you.

[Scott Campbell]

Now, what FACTS can we get from that? FACTS: The 3 records mentioned were all broken under Shermans Tenure, using his coaching. Green smashed records on the ground................


I can use this same logic to prove that Wayne Fontes was the second coming of Vince. Barry Sanders was nothing until Wayne used his patented coaching techniques to mold him into a first ballot HOFer.

A few of you guys take some interesting liberties with so called "facts".



And welcome to Packer Rats.

:P

[Scott Campbell]

I still believe and always will that he should have been fired after the Philly game. I'm the first to admit that I'm not as forgiving as some here are. I believe that these guys get paid good money and don't have the "right" to make mistakes. Excuses are for losers and success in the NFL is judged by winning plain and simple.


Some people see the world in black and white, and struggle with ambiguity. Generally they don't run football teams.

[The Shadow]

Sherman was a decent coach. He major failure was that he couldn't succeed in the rarified air of the playoffs.
His record as a GM was woeful.
He needed to be replaced.
He was. The GM (at least in my opinion) is light-years better.
The new coach? Too early to tell, but I like what I've seen.
Time marches on.

[MadtownPacker]

I just would like to point out, that a few of us have been coming to this site for quite a while. I have pointed quite a few of my friends to this site because every once in a while......you are bound to come across that littte bit of news that you hadnt heard yet, the wishfull rumor that makes a guy dream with drool runnin down his chin, and yes, lots of pissing matches over the stupidest shit.

I am actually suprised by the number of laughs i get reading some of the posts, and the coolest part about this site,.........If I want to get caught up on the latest news, rumors, stats and facts.....I can just come here and have it all in seconds. (as opposed to visiting espn's site, nfl.com, jsonline, packers.com.......ect. ect.)

Just thought I would point out that some of us have been here for a while,hangin out in the background, enjoying the forums but not participating. I think the main reason for that would be that a lot of times, the very first reply to any given posting, is something negative from another PACKER FAN :shock: without any real argument or opinion to back up the negative comment.
I can see where a person would get sick of posting any of his or her opinions or their points of view........fairly quickly.Great post PackerBlues!!

[RashanGary]

I agree wiht the sentiment here. RG and I go back and forth a little. I can take a few lumps and he has too.

That said, I've always had a problem with new people getting ripped. It's hard when you're new. New guys have nobody that they can count on to back them up adn they feel like everyone else is buddys and ganging up.

I think we sometimes go back and forth a little adn most long timers have pretty thick skin (you have to to post at a forum regularly)

That said, a newby might not want to post if it all hits right away. If you've been ripped on, it's normal at any forum. I go to a few and it's part of putting our opinion out. That said, I think there should be consideration just so we can have a welcoming forum to newbs. AFter 100 posts you're fair game though :) That's just my opinion :)

[Lurker64]

I've found that conspicuously lurking for several months can be quite useful.

[Bretsky]

I agree wiht the sentiment here. RG and I go back and forth a little. I can take a few lumps and he has too.

That said, I've always had a problem with new people getting ripped. It's hard when you're new. New guys have nobody that they can count on to back them up adn they feel like everyone else is buddys and ganging up.

I think we sometimes go back and forth a little adn most long timers have pretty thick skin (you have to to post at a forum regularly)

That said, a newby might not want to post if it all hits right away. If you've been ripped on, it's normal at any forum. I go to a few and it's part of putting our opinion out. That said, I think there should be consideration just so we can have a welcoming forum to newbs. AFter 100 posts you're fair game though :) That's just my opinion :)


I'd completely agree here; I think I have pretty thick skin and normally don't even realize when I'm getting ripped. Hopefully I'm not one ever laying into the newbies either

[Patler]

Perhaps to feel more welcome a newer poster shouldn't come on and

.. call other posters "LAAMMMMMEE"
refer to anyone with an opposite opinion as "a delusional half witted idiot"

Just a thought! :roll:

[Scott Campbell]

Perhaps to feel more welcome a newer poster shouldn't come on and

.. call other posters "LAAMMMMMEE"
refer to anyone with an opposite opinion as "a delusional half witted idiot"

Just a thought! :roll:


ROFL

Poor Noob.

[Scott Campbell]

That said, I think there should be consideration just so we can have a welcoming forum to newbs. AFter 100 posts you're fair game though :) That's just my opinion :)


Kind of like the Noob Protection Act?

I dunno. I think ideas should stand on their own merit, regardless of the perceived pedigree of the poster - or lack therof.

[mraynrand]

His record as a GM was woeful.

.667 winning percentage regular season, three straight division championships, 3 straight playoff appearances (1-3 post season), two pro bowl draft picks - this is woeful?

[mraynrand]

Sherman benefitted immensely from playing 6 games each year against Chicago, MN and Detroit. None of them had a winning record during the Sherman years.

You forgot 2000, when the Packers not only went into Minnesota and beat them, but Holliday injured Culpepper, which effectively doomed MNs chances in the NFC Championship game. Wouldn't you say it was tough for GB to beat even relatively poor MN teams in MN? Yet Sherman won there multiple times. The Packers also beat Tampa in 2000. You also forgot 2001 - Chicago was 13-3 (technically, that counts as a winning record) - and GB beat them twice that year. GB under Sherman was 9-7, 12-4, 12-4, 10-6 (before Thompson). OK, perhaps all the 43 wins were against weak teams and all 21 losses were to good teams, but Sherman was able to beat the defending Superbowl champ 3 years in a row. GB suffered dismal losses to St. Louis and Atlanta, but injuries were a huge factor in 2002 (9 starters lost to injury). circumstances do count.

I have to wonder about your perspective if you can so easily forget the 2000 Vikings, the 2001 Bears, and the intense rivalry and difficulty of winning in Minnesota.

Most teams with 10-6, 11-5, 12-4 records get there by more often than not beating the weaker teams, and losing on the road and to the better teams.

[SD GB fan]

His record as a GM was woeful.

.667 winning percentage regular season, three straight division championships, 3 straight playoff appearances (1-3 post season), two pro bowl draft picks - this is woeful?

the two pro bowl picks is sherman's work as a GM. the other part is mostly coaching and having a solid team. brett favre and ahman green were younger then and we had a working oline. woeful was sherman's efforts to p maintain its future talent. when TT took over, the depth at each position was horrible as seen by the 4-12 season when injury hit the team hard.

[Patler]

Sherman benefitted immensely from playing 6 games each year against Chicago, MN and Detroit. None of them had a winning record during the Sherman years.

You forgot 2000, when the Packers not only went into Minnesota and beat them, but Holliday injured Culpepper, which effectively doomed MNs chances in the NFC Championship game. Wouldn't you say it was tough for GB to beat even relatively poor MN teams in MN? Yet Sherman won there multiple times. The Packers also beat Tampa in 2000. You also forgot 2001 - Chicago was 13-3 (technically, that counts as a winning record) - and GB beat them twice that year. GB under Sherman was 9-7, 12-4, 12-4, 10-6 (before Thompson). OK, perhaps all the 43 wins were against weak teams and all 21 losses were to good teams, but Sherman was able to beat the defending Superbowl champ 3 years in a row. GB suffered dismal losses to St. Louis and Atlanta, but injuries were a huge factor in 2002 (9 starters lost to injury). circumstances do count.

I have to wonder about your perspective if you can so easily forget the 2000 Vikings, the 2001 Bears, and the intense rivalry and difficulty of winning in Minnesota.

Most teams with 10-6, 11-5, 12-4 records get there by more often than not beating the weaker teams, and losing on the road and to the better teams.

No, I did not forget those seasons, and I was not referring to specific games or specific seasons. What I meant was that cummulatively over the span of the Sherman coaching years each Detroit, MN and Chicago did not have winning records. I did not mean they had losing records every single season. Heck, even Detroit had a winning record in 2000. In the six Sherman seasons, MN was 48-48, in spite of being 11-5 in 2000. Chicago was 45-51 even with being 13-3 in 2001 and 11-5 in 2005. Detroit was 30-66. Overall, during the 6 seasons, they were not very good teams

I have to wonder about your perspective if you can not comprehend that from 2000 to 2004, when Sherman was winning all those games, he had very little competition from his own division. I am surprised that you seemingly can not understand that with six games each year in a weak division, plus a few others against weak teams outside of the division, getting to 8-8 was not a huge challenge. Contrast that with a team that wins a division that has 2 or 3 strong teams. My point is that while Sherman's teams may have had won loss records among the best in the league, realistically they were not as good as teams with worse records that won divisions that were strong.

Check Sherman's record against teams that had winning records. He started out OK, but got worse with each season, indicating that the team was decliining relative to the rest of the league, inspite of their final record. His performance in the playoffs supports that as well.

[Patler]

In 2004, GB finished at 10-6. They did not beat a single team with a winning record. Not one. They barely squeaked by MN twice, Detroit once and Houston once. Those were not good teams, and the Packers could have just as easily been 5-11. Three of their losses were to Chicago (5-11) the Giants (6-10) and TN (5-11). If the Packers were really any good that year, they would have one at least a couple of those. They also lost to Jacksonville, who was just 9-7. The only decent teams GB playeed that year were Indy (12-4) and Philly (13-3)

2004 was a warning for what was to happen in 2005 when things did not fall their way, such as losing twice to MN on fieldgoals instead of winning twice on fieldgoals, etc.

[PackerBlues]

I

2004 was a warning for what was to happen in 2005 when things did not fall their way, such as losing twice to MN on fieldgoals instead of winning twice on fieldgoals, etc.

IN 2004:
One year after erasing the franchise rushing record, most of the same personnel established the team marks for total offense and net passing. The season's peak came on Christmas Eve in Minnesota, when the team captured the division title with a 34-31 win over the Vikings. However, just two weeks later the same Vikings avenged the loss with a 31-17 win in a Wild Card playoff at Lambeau Field.

taken from http://www.packers.com/history/birth_of_a_team_and_a_legend/#chapter13

Yeah, that hurt. Very painful ending.

By the way Patler, why is it that when you call me out....




Perhaps to feel more welcome a newer poster shouldn't come on and

.. call other posters "LAAMMMMMEE"
refer to anyone with an opposite opinion as "a delusional half witted idiot"

Just a thought!


I actually feel bad about it? :oops: (The roster WAS decimated though. :lol: )

Its probably because all that time I was reading other peoples posts and not posting anything myself.......I always enjoyed reading yours. You kind of come off as the kind of guy who wouldnt say something unless he believed it and was sure he could back it up. Not to mention, I dont think you ever called anyone an idiot or lame, lol.

So, I am sorry that I referred to the people that refused to take note of the decimated roster in 2004 as "delusional, half-witted idiots". Or "Lame". I promise that I will hardly ever do it again. :lol: (Never is a long time dude, I dont think I could have went that long, and I didnt wanna lie to ya.)

[Fritz]

Ted's first first round pick for the Packers: Aaron Rogers. TT's way of saying "Hey Brett, I want you gone, and I am not going to do anything to help this offense."

Teds third first round pick for the Packers: Justin Harrell. Another "safe" pick? Not exactly......a little injury history here. Was there another "silent message" sent to Favre? I think so.

Those are two absurd and ridiculous comments.

PackerBlues, you do realize that you are suggesting that an NFL general manager has been deliberately undermining his own team by choosing players that would encourage a hall-of-fame quarterback to retire, right?

Listen, I am happy to go back and forth about draft picks, free agents (or lack thereof), Shermy vs. TT, and on and on. Heck, I'm not too sure about the Harrell pick myself - I'm concerned that this guy has an injury history. I also am open to debate about taking a guy like James Jones in the third round, or whether Aaron Rouse is too stiff to play safety. I think Thompson is open to questioning on those counts, though I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

But to suggest that Thompson is deliberately undermining the Green Bay Packers because he wants Brett Favre to retire - well, you've got to have a lot better proof than you've shown so far.

[Packnut]

I still believe and always will that he should have been fired after the Philly game. I'm the first to admit that I'm not as forgiving as some here are. I believe that these guys get paid good money and don't have the "right" to make mistakes. Excuses are for losers and success in the NFL is judged by winning plain and simple.


Some people see the world in black and white, and struggle with ambiguity. Generally they don't run football teams.

Well, how much time was wasted on Sherman AFTER that game? Seeing things in black and white makes them less complicated.

[PackerBlues]

PackerBlues, you do realize that you are suggesting that an NFL general manager has been deliberately undermining his own team by choosing players that would encourage a hall-of-fame quarterback to retire, right?


But to suggest that Thompson is deliberately undermining the Green Bay Packers because he wants Brett Favre to retire - well, you've got to have a lot better proof than you've shown so far.

Oh, I am sure Ted has the Packers best interests at heart. I have no doubt of that. However, I am also sure that he cannot wait to clear Brett Favre's salary off the books. One thing stands out ever since he took over as GM. Offense really doesnt matter to him. What has he done to improve the offense since coming to GB?

2005 draft. Aaron Rogers
Junius Coston

2005 F.A. Noah Herron
Tory Humphry
Donald Lee

2006 draft. Daryn Colledge
Greg Jennings
Jason Spitz
Ingle Martin
Tony Moll

2006 Trades Carlton Brewster
Vernand Morencey

2006 F.A. Zac Alcorn , Calvin Russell
Todd Bouman , Adam Stenavich
Josh Bourke , Orrin Thompson
Chris Francies , Tyson Walter,
Travis Leffew
Ruvell Martin
Brandon Miree
P.J. Pope


2007 Draft. RB Brandon Jackson D2
WR James Jones D3a
WR David Clowney D5
RB DeShawn Wynn D7a
TE Clark Harris D7b

2007 F.A. None?


That sums up all of the offensive players that Thompson has added to the team in his tenure currently on the roster. Are you impressed?

http://www.packers.com/team/how_built/

[HarveyWallbangers]

2005 draft. Aaron Rogers
Junius Coston

2005 F.A. Noah Herron
Tory Humphry
Donald Lee

He spent a second round pick on WR Terrence Murphy--who looked good before he got injured. Murphy had never gotten injured while at Texas A&M, so it's hard to put the blame on him for that.

In 2006, he signed Koren Robinson and picked up Ruvell Martin. He brought in a ton of WRs during his time.

In 2005, he brought in Samkon Gado at RB--who looked like a real find. He just didn't fit the new scheme the next year.

His TEs didn't look like a weakness until this year when Bubba fell off dramatically. Sure, the team needs a field stretching TE, but more than half the teams in the NFL do. They aren't that common. There was exactly one available in this draft, and there may not have been any in FA.

I'm impressed that he went after a QB of the future, spent at least two 2nd, one 3rd, one 4th, and one 5th round pick at WR, and rebuilt the OL in two years. We'll see about RB. Morency was a good find, and I like the looks of Brandon Jackson. Not sure about Pope, Beach, or Wynn yet.

[Fritz]

PackerBlues, you do realize that you are suggesting that an NFL general manager has been deliberately undermining his own team by choosing players that would encourage a hall-of-fame quarterback to retire, right?


But to suggest that Thompson is deliberately undermining the Green Bay Packers because he wants Brett Favre to retire - well, you've got to have a lot better proof than you've shown so far.

Oh, I am sure Ted has the Packers best interests at heart. I have no doubt of that. However, I am also sure that he cannot wait to clear Brett Favre's salary off the books. One thing stands out ever since he took over as GM. Offense really doesnt matter to him. What has he done to improve the offense since coming to GB?

2005 draft. Aaron Rogers
Junius Coston

2005 F.A. Noah Herron
Tory Humphry
Donald Lee

2006 draft. Daryn Colledge
Greg Jennings
Jason Spitz
Ingle Martin
Tony Moll

2006 Trades Carlton Brewster
Vernand Morencey

2006 F.A. Zac Alcorn , Calvin Russell
Todd Bouman , Adam Stenavich
Josh Bourke , Orrin Thompson
Chris Francies , Tyson Walter,
Travis Leffew
Ruvell Martin
Brandon Miree
P.J. Pope


2007 Draft. RB Brandon Jackson D2
WR James Jones D3a
WR David Clowney D5
RB DeShawn Wynn D7a
TE Clark Harris D7b

2007 F.A. None?


That sums up all of the offensive players that Thompson has added to the team in his tenure currently on the roster. Are you impressed?

http://www.packers.com/team/how_built/

Let me say first that I agree with Harvey - you neglected TT's drafting of Terraqnce Murphy in the second round, and his signing of Koren Robinson.

However, it's the statement that is in bold above that I'd like to address briefly. It's hard to fathom any general manager to whom offense does not matter. Some gm's might lean more toward defense and others toward opffense, but I can't imagine there's a single NFL gm that thinks offense doesn't matter.

[Lurker64]

However, it's the statement that is in bold above that I'd like to address briefly. It's hard to fathom any general manager to whom offense does not matter. Some gm's might lean more toward defense and others toward opffense, but I can't imagine there's a single NFL gm that thinks offense doesn't matter.

Plus, you know, that team that he built in Seattle certainly manages a lot better on offense than Defense. In his five years drafting for the Seahawks, the man did spend four first round picks on offensive guys (Alexander, Hutchinson, KoRo, and Stevens), so I'd be hard pressed to justify "Thompson doesn't care about offense."

[woodbuck27]

Ted's first first round pick for the Packers: Aaron Rogers. TT's way of saying "Hey Brett, I want you gone, and I am not going to do anything to help this offense." I sure am glad Ted used this pick on a QB, Rogers sure has come in handy since Teddy drafted him hasnt he <---SARCASM!!!

Teds second first round pick for the Packers: A.J. Hawk. Easily the safest pick in the draft and not a pick that makes TT a genius, it just makes him the GM that took the safest pick this year. Also not a guy that was going to help put points on the board. Am I happy we have him? Yes. Were there other players that could have improved our offense? Yes, without a doubt. Again, a silent message is sent to Favre.

Teds third first round pick for the Packers: Justin Harrell. Another "safe" pick? Not exactly......a little injury history here. Was there another "silent message" sent to Favre? I think so.

I can tell you one thing, If I were the starting QB for the Packers from the time that TT took over up til now.........I would have been cut for sure.
I dont think any GM would put up with his QB walking into his office and Bitch Slapping the living shit out of him. Lucky for Teddy that Favre has a much nicer temperment than me.

No kidding !!! :)

The way that TT has treated our franchise QB is obvious neglect and deplorable to me as a Packer fan that see's such a man in Brett Favre that I totally respect.

How Brett Favre can sum up the strength, to not retire between now and TC is beyond me.

Ted Thompson has treated Brett Favre and our offense and coaching staff and every Packer fan with total neglect. 12-20 and the fact it will go from bad to worse this season is and will be the proof.

The farce that is Ted Thompson is fully exposed now and it's a shame that so many are still fooled or in denial.

If any of you really believe that after this horrid off season that Ted Thompson is our future then may you be bless'd by your HIGHER POWER.

GO PACKERS !!!

PS: Please. . soon go without Ted Thompson.

[woodbuck27]

CW,

It's very possible that if we trade down with the Broncos that we don't get Harrell. Also, it's foolish to assume that we can make all these trades without any ripple effect. One trade effects several more, which then effects the players and where they go.

Also, the idea that TT is sabotaging the team to make it his own is just unrealistic. Do you honestly think that TT, to boost his own ego, would make the team worse? It's just ludacris.

And who cares about "value"? Value is just an illusion created by draft experts to make talk. Oh, we got 5th round value in the 3rd round? That blows. We got a 3rd round value in the 5th round? Fantastic.

Value means nothing. It's the players you draft that makes the difference, not the "value" at which you get them.

There is off the top too much evidence that TT has neglected us on the offensive side of the ball since his arrival.

He certainly did so this off season except for extending Al Harris,Cullen Jenkins and Nick Barnnett. All three simply deserving of that outcome.

That fact of a failure to date in the off season is in all of our faces. No matter where you stood as a Packer fan regarding opinion on Ted Thompson's competence or agenda he did a poor job this off season. Just the fact that there is so much heat here on this question draws attention to just that.

Is this because he wants to have total control of the team.NO !!!

He already as GM 'on face' owns that. Yet he does have his boss (boss's).

Re-call the fact that he meets with the Packer Board to discuss direction. . . ie acquiring Randy Moss.

It could be argued that as a GM he had a horrid off season compared to all other NFL GM's. Very difficult to find much to point to, to weigh in on the contrary.

As a board we should be trying to console one another by determining why he fails us so obviously offensively.

Take Brett Favre and Donald Driver away from the Packers and what are we left with on offense that can obviously generate a win for us ?

[woodbuck27]

That deal makes way too much sense for Ted Thompson to go for it and desert his agenda.

That is exactly what TT is all about. I agree 100% with Merlin when he says TT wants it to be his team.

I guess i cant say alot because we dont know how this guy will turn out, but one things for sure that TT no long ever again has the excuse of not signing/picking a guy solely on the fact that he
gets injured. I think thats the thing that pissed me off so much. I guess i think that in value and everything TT really screwed the pooch on this one. I mean he could have gotten the most value by doing this:


First move is to trade down with the Broncos
Jaguars got a 3rd and a 5th to move back 4 spots. That way in my opionion the Harrell pick wouldnt quite be such a reach. and if TT was so in love with him then theres no stopping him picking him. But if hes not there then

Secound move is to trade down with Clevland...
That way you just sucked draft picks out of 2 teams. Your still ahead of Dallas so that assumes that your getting a better deal. This way your set for the future and now...

Third move, and this is still if TT wants, he can move our original 2nd and trade with the Jets (if he still wanted to)

So you have 3 round 3 selections, I make a trade to move up with ethier broncos or miami:

Miami's pick:235
Denvers pick:240

Packers-3+5+6+6+6=237


that way our draft picks look like this

Clevlands 1 next year
2(36) 2(63)
3(70) 3(78) 3(89)
4(119)
5(159(i think)
7(228) 7(293)


And this is what i would do with those picks

2-Ethier Rice, Jarrett, or Smith

2-Pittman

3-Marcus McCauley

3-Tank Tyler

3-Aaron Rouse

4-Allen Barbe

5-David Clowney

7-Michael Allen

7-Darius Walker

please excues spelling
Also i know that there are alot of IFs in this and most likely a few flaws. this is just how i would do it.

WOW !

Alot of work in that post CW.

It's really difficult to guage now what was going on last Sat. regarding TT's options to trade down with Cleveland or Dallas but he was certainly presented with opportunities and he had to have the ability to think fast on his feet.

We have never seen evidence that this personality quality is one that Ted Thompson is gifted with. :)

He may at best be described as a plodder. That is one of the personality traits that I see in him and his non chalent attitude that is killing us and will continue to do so.

Ted Thompson isn't the brightest bulb on the tree. :)

[MJZiggy]

It's really difficult to guage now what was going on last Sat. regarding TT's options to trade down with Cleveland or Dallas but he was certainly presented with opportunities and he had to have the ability to think fast on his feet.

We have never seen evidence that this personality quality is one that Ted Thompson is gifted with. :)

He may at best be described as a plodder. That is one of the personality traits that I see in him and his non chalent attitude that is killing us and will continue to do so.

Ted Thompson isn't the brightest bulb on the tree. :)

We saw evidence of it last year. That was a great draft with a lot of quick wheeling and dealing.

[woodbuck27]

It's really difficult to guage now what was going on last Sat. regarding TT's options to trade down with Cleveland or Dallas but he was certainly presented with opportunities and he had to have the ability to think fast on his feet.

We have never seen evidence that this personality quality is one that Ted Thompson is gifted with. :)

He may at best be described as a plodder. That is one of the personality traits that I see in him and his non chalent attitude that is killing us and will continue to do so.

Ted Thompson isn't the brightest bulb on the tree. :)

We saw evidence of it last year. That was a great draft with a lot of quick wheeling and dealing.

Here's Rd. two of Sat's draft. What do you see?:

11 43 Detroit (from Buffalo) Stanton, Drew QB 6-3 235 Michigan State
12 44 Minnesota (from Atlanta) Rice, Sidney WR 6-4 202 South Carolina
13 45 Carolina Jarrett, Dwayne WR 6-5 213 Southern California
14 46 Pittsburgh Woodley, LaMarr DE 6-2 269 Michigan

15 47 N.Y. Jets (from Green Bay for pick no. 63 and a 6th Rd. pick no.191) Harris, David ILB 6-2 239 Michigan

16 48 Jacksonville Durant, Justin ILB 6-1 235 Hampton

17 49 Cincinnati Irons, Kenny RB 5-11 195 Auburn

18 50 Tennessee Henry, Chris RB 6-0 228 Arizona

19 51 N.Y. Giants Smith, Steve WR 5-11 199 Southern California

20 52 St. Louis Leonard, Brian FB 6-1 238 Rutgers

21 53 Cleveland (from Dallas) Wright, Eric CB 5-11 190 Nevada-Las Vegas

22 54 Kansas City McBride, Turk DT 6-4 276 Tennessee
23 55 Seattle Wilson, Josh CB 5-9 188 Maryland

24 56 Denver Crowder, Tim DE 6-4 271 Texas

25 57 Philadelphia Abiamiri, Victor DE 6-5 271 Notre Dame

26 58 Detroit (from New Orleans) Alama-Francis, Ikaika DE 6-5 250 Hawaii

27 59 Carolina (from N.Y. Jets) Kalil, Ryan C 6-3 291 Southern California

28 60 Miami (from New England) Satele, Samson C 6-2 311 Hawaii

29 61 Detroit (from Baltimore) Alexander, Gerald FS 6-0 210 Boise State

30 62 Chicago (from San Diego) Bazuin, Dan DE 6-3 265 Central Michigan

31 63 Green Bay (from Chicago through N.Y. Jets) Jackson, Brandon RB 5-10 210 Nebraska

32 64 Tampa Bay (from Indianapolis) Piscitelli, Sabby SS 6-3 224 Oregon State

[TheCheese]

WOW !

Alot of work in that post CW.

It's really difficult to guage now what was going on last Sat. regarding TT's options to trade down with Cleveland or Dallas but he was certainly presented with opportunities and he had to have the ability to think fast on his feet.

We have never seen evidence that this personality quality is one that Ted Thompson is gifted with. :)

He may at best be described as a plodder. That is one of the personality traits that I see in him and his non chalent attitude that is killing us and will continue to do so.

Ted Thompson isn't the brightest bulb on the tree. :)

Who says he didnt have the ability to think fast on his feet when they offered him to trade down? Were you there? Did you see him choke? Or is your biase commanding your perception towards Ted's actions?

Now you can call him a bad GM all you want, but why would you insult his intelligence? Solely because he hasnt done every little move you would of done, with all your knowledge you get from your little websites, and your expert scouting resources and what the "draft experts" from TV tell you who is a good player and who is a not so good player, the same experts who said Collins and Jennings was a reach? Get real.

The bottom line is this, TT loves to trade down, he has a history of it, but only when he makes out the better value. You have no idea what his draft board looks like, none of us do, but we can all stipulate on the fact the guy knows how to judge talent. He saw something in Harrell that appealed to him greatly, so greatly that even though other teams may of offered him fair deals to move down, he did not want to take the chance on missing out on drafting Harrell. That would of been bad value to him, and since he is the GM, bad value for the Green Bay Packers.

What if Harrell was his 8th overall player on his draft board and he has a chance to draft him at 16, what is he supposed to do, hope none of the other teams overlooked this guys talent, that maybe hes Teddy's little secret? You guys put way too much stock into what these draft "gurus" big boards look like.

Now you guys listing other things TT should of done; gotten this player in this round, done this trade and signed that player, this is the perfect example of the logical fallacy monday morning quarterback. It really is daunting that some of you really state what players Ted should of got in what rounds. AFTER the draft. Im sure he would do the same if he could see into the future, but in reality you can't.

Reservations must be made on Thompson's GM job for at least another year till you decide if hes garbage, or a good GM. This is a long term body of work and narrow minds will always be the first to cry and complain and things they would of done different, somehow these people believe themselves to be so qualified.

We didnt know Sherman was a poor GM his first couple of seasons, just like we dont know if Ted is a good or bad GM yet, but as time goes by the answer will become more and more apparent.

One thing I sure am glad about is he doesnt allow the cumulating pressure of ignorant fans' personel wishes to affect him.

[woodbuck27]

WOW !

Alot of work in that post CW.

It's really difficult to guage now what was going on last Sat. regarding TT's options to trade down with Cleveland or Dallas but he was certainly presented with opportunities and he had to have the ability to think fast on his feet.

We have never seen evidence that this personality quality is one that Ted Thompson is gifted with. :)

He may at best be described as a plodder. That is one of the personality traits that I see in him and his non chalent attitude that is killing us and will continue to do so.

Ted Thompson isn't the brightest bulb on the tree. :)

Who says he didnt have the ability to think fast on his feet when they offered him to trade down? Were you there? Did you see him choke? Or is your biase commanding your perception towards Ted's actions?

Now you can call him a bad GM all you want, but why would you insult his intelligence? Solely because he hasnt done every little move you would of done, with all your knowledge you get from your little websites, and your expert scouting resources and what the "draft experts" from TV tell you who is a good player and who is a not so good player, the same experts who said Collins and Jennings was a reach? Get real.

The bottom line is this, TT loves to trade down, he has a history of it, but only when he makes out the better value. You have no idea what his draft board looks like, none of us do, but we can all stipulate on the fact the guy knows how to judge talent. He saw something in Harrell that appealed to him greatly, so greatly that even though other teams may of offered him fair deals to move down, he did not want to take the chance on missing out on drafting Harrell. That would of been bad value to him, and since he is the GM, bad value for the Green Bay Packers.

What if Harrell was his 8th overall player on his draft board and he has a chance to draft him at 16, what is he supposed to do, hope none of the other teams overlooked this guys talent, that maybe hes Teddy's little secret? You guys put way too much stock into what these draft "gurus" big boards look like.

Now you guys listing other things TT should of done; gotten this player in this round, done this trade and signed that player, this is the perfect example of the logical fallacy monday morning quarterback. It really is daunting that some of you really state what players Ted should of got in what rounds. AFTER the draft. Im sure he would do the same if he could see into the future, but in reality you can't.

Reservations must be made on Thompson's GM job for at least another year till you decide if hes garbage, or a good GM. This is a long term body of work and narrow minds will always be the first to cry and complain and things they would of done different, somehow these people believe themselves to be so qualified.

We didnt know Sherman was a poor GM his first couple of seasons, just like we dont know if Ted is a good or bad GM yet, but as time goes by the answer will become more and more apparent.

One thing I sure am glad about is he doesnt allow the cumulating pressure of ignorant fans' personel wishes to affect him.

I'll repeat. . .

WOW !

Alot of work in that post CW.

It's really difficult to guage now what was going on last Sat. regarding TT's options to trade down with Cleveland or Dallas but he was certainly presented with opportunities and he had to have the ability to think fast on his feet.

We have never seen evidence that this personality quality is one that Ted Thompson is gifted with.

He may at best be described as a plodder. That is one of the personality traits that I see in him and his non chalent attitude that is killing us and will continue to do so.

Ted Thompson isn't the brightest bulb on the tree. :) :)

and I continue:

What bothered me alot more than his decision at NO. 16, that could only be realy appreciated if one studies this man. Was the move he made to trade down out of pick No. 47 in the second.

His board. . . your's, mine any man's board doesn't matter when you have a number of players all lined up that might make an immediate impact on your team and satisfy certain need.

In the second Rd. it can't be ignored that TT made a need pick.He dropped fr. pick No. 47 to pick No. 63 passing over some really decent players for what?

A RB that was rated lower than some that were already available to him at No. 4. A RB that we now believe scored what? An 11 on the Wonderlik. Was TT aware of that score? If so why did he picki him? Was he targeting him or was he the BPA?

At No. 47 he had RB's Irons and Henry staring him in the face. He had WR Smith and a very decent FB in Leonard. So he trades down to the bottom of the second to gain a 6th?? What was the sense there?

Why go with 9-11 players out of the draft by watering down when he could pick the best eight available as his picks came up? Bring in those eight and cut down on confusion and disappointment.

Quality doesn't necessarily come in numbers.

Confusion often does.

TT doesn't show intelligent consistency. He doesn't give 'the Packers' the effort with results that we as Packer fans deserve to see.

I'll hold up 12-20 for YOU to see and justify, based on TT's magical qualities.

I'll go a step further.

If our team finish's better than 7-9 this season. I'll come to your driveway and kiss your ass.

I'm being very very :) cautious with that offer.

[PackerBlues]

He spent a second round pick on WR Terrence Murphy--who looked good before he got injured. Murphy had never gotten injured while at Texas A&M, so it's hard to put the blame on him for that.


Is WR Terrence Murphy on the current roster? If he is, I apologize for failing to mention such a key figure in our offense. Also wondering.....is this what is reffered to as a "double standard"? Its ok for Teds boys to get injured but if anyone gets injured under Shermy, its all Shermy's fault?



In 2006, he signed Koren Robinson and picked up Ruvell Martin. He brought in a ton of WRs during his time.

yeah, lets not forget the Speedy Drunk. Actually, I didnt forget him, its just that he is not on the current roster. Cant play till after the first 4 games I believe. Besides, I expect that if we really end up needing him......Teddy will wait till the last second to trade him for a ham sandwich and a bottle of YooHoo. As for Ruvell Martin, he is on the above posted list. Gee, did ya think i would forget a player of Revell Martin's Quality. HA!


In 2005, he brought in Samkon Gado at RB--who looked like a real find. He just didn't fit the new scheme the next year.

Yeah he looked like a real find......why do you think Ted got rid of him. Heaven forbid he keeps a player of Samkons quality that the fans and the team had fallen in love with. By "doesnt fit the new scheme", i would have to assume you mean he was an offensive player that actually looked promising.




Let me say first that I agree with Harvey - you neglected TT's drafting of Terraqnce Murphy in the second round, and his signing of Koren Robinson.

See, this is what I meant when I said there are so many posts that have me laughing out loud. Dont worry Fritz, I am laughing with you, not at you. Honestly, lol.

[HarveyWallbangers]

One thing stands out ever since he took over as GM. Offense really doesnt matter to him.

I pretty much blew up your point, huh?

[The Shadow]

".....The way that TT has treated our franchise QB is obvious neglect and deplorable to me as a Packer fan that see's such a man in Brett Favre that I totally respect."
I like Favre, too.
How ,exactly, has Thompson so 'neglected' him?
What, exactly, is so 'deplorable'?

This one really escapes me.
Has he refused to pay him his megamillions?
Has he somehow tarnished Favre's iconic status among his fawning Cult?
Shot his dog?

Sorry - this one just doesn't play in Peoria.

".....The farce that is Ted Thompson is fully exposed now and it's a shame that so many are still fooled or in denial."

This is a good one, too.
I think an awful lot of us have been 'fooled' and are now in 'denial'.

[Scott Campbell]

I still believe and always will that he should have been fired after the Philly game. I'm the first to admit that I'm not as forgiving as some here are. I believe that these guys get paid good money and don't have the "right" to make mistakes. Excuses are for losers and success in the NFL is judged by winning plain and simple.


Some people see the world in black and white, and struggle with ambiguity. Generally they don't run football teams.

Well, how much time was wasted on Sherman AFTER that game? Seeing things in black and white makes them less complicated.

Maybe in Sherman's case. But what about Bill Cowher?

[The Shadow]

a tank is a tank is a tank is a tank is a tank.

[retailguy]

a tank is a tank is a tank is a tank is a tank.

Sorry Shadow, it's NOT a tank.

[TheCheese]

WOW !

Alot of work in that post CW.

It's really difficult to guage now what was going on last Sat. regarding TT's options to trade down with Cleveland or Dallas but he was certainly presented with opportunities and he had to have the ability to think fast on his feet.

We have never seen evidence that this personality quality is one that Ted Thompson is gifted with. :)

He may at best be described as a plodder. That is one of the personality traits that I see in him and his non chalent attitude that is killing us and will continue to do so.

Ted Thompson isn't the brightest bulb on the tree. :)

Who says he didnt have the ability to think fast on his feet when they offered him to trade down? Were you there? Did you see him choke? Or is your biase commanding your perception towards Ted's actions?

Now you can call him a bad GM all you want, but why would you insult his intelligence? Solely because he hasnt done every little move you would of done, with all your knowledge you get from your little websites, and your expert scouting resources and what the "draft experts" from TV tell you who is a good player and who is a not so good player, the same experts who said Collins and Jennings was a reach? Get real.

The bottom line is this, TT loves to trade down, he has a history of it, but only when he makes out the better value. You have no idea what his draft board looks like, none of us do, but we can all stipulate on the fact the guy knows how to judge talent. He saw something in Harrell that appealed to him greatly, so greatly that even though other teams may of offered him fair deals to move down, he did not want to take the chance on missing out on drafting Harrell. That would of been bad value to him, and since he is the GM, bad value for the Green Bay Packers.

What if Harrell was his 8th overall player on his draft board and he has a chance to draft him at 16, what is he supposed to do, hope none of the other teams overlooked this guys talent, that maybe hes Teddy's little secret? You guys put way too much stock into what these draft "gurus" big boards look like.

Now you guys listing other things TT should of done; gotten this player in this round, done this trade and signed that player, this is the perfect example of the logical fallacy monday morning quarterback. It really is daunting that some of you really state what players Ted should of got in what rounds. AFTER the draft. Im sure he would do the same if he could see into the future, but in reality you can't.

Reservations must be made on Thompson's GM job for at least another year till you decide if hes garbage, or a good GM. This is a long term body of work and narrow minds will always be the first to cry and complain and things they would of done different, somehow these people believe themselves to be so qualified.

We didnt know Sherman was a poor GM his first couple of seasons, just like we dont know if Ted is a good or bad GM yet, but as time goes by the answer will become more and more apparent.

One thing I sure am glad about is he doesnt allow the cumulating pressure of ignorant fans' personel wishes to affect him.

I'll repeat. . .

WOW !

Alot of work in that post CW.

It's really difficult to guage now what was going on last Sat. regarding TT's options to trade down with Cleveland or Dallas but he was certainly presented with opportunities and he had to have the ability to think fast on his feet.

We have never seen evidence that this personality quality is one that Ted Thompson is gifted with.

He may at best be described as a plodder. That is one of the personality traits that I see in him and his non chalent attitude that is killing us and will continue to do so.

Ted Thompson isn't the brightest bulb on the tree. :) :)

and I continue:

What bothered me alot more than his decision at NO. 16, that could only be realy appreciated if one studies this man. Was the move he made to trade down out of pick No. 47 in the second.

His board. . . your's, mine any man's board doesn't matter when you have a number of players all lined up that might make an immediate impact on your team and satisfy certain need.

In the second Rd. it can't be ignored that TT made a need pick.He dropped fr. pick No. 47 to pick No. 63 passing over some really decent players for what?

A RB that was rated lower than some that were already available to him at No. 4. A RB that we now believe scored what? An 11 on the Wonderlik. Was TT aware of that score? If so why did he picki him? Was he targeting him or was he the BPA?

At No. 47 he had RB's Irons and Henry staring him in the face. He had WR Smith and a very decent FB in Leonard. So he trades down to the bottom of the second to gain a 6th?? What was the sense there?

Why go with 9-11 players out of the draft by watering down when he could pick the best eight available as his picks came up? Bring in those eight and cut down on confusion and disappointment.

Quality doesn't necessarily come in numbers.

Confusion often does.

TT doesn't show intelligent consistency. He doesn't give 'the Packers' the effort with results that we as Packer fans deserve to see.


I'm being very very :) cautious with that offer.

Once again, you are demontrating the type of thinking I specifically explained in my previous post. How do you know that was a need pick for Jackson? You're basing assumptions on that being a need pick from absolutely no facts.

And from going to 47 and 63, how do you know all those players are decent? How do you know Jackson isnt decent? How exactly do you know everything about the draft?

Also, you state that Jackson was a RB rated lower than the ones he chose him over. Rated by who? Please read my previous post again, this is really ridiculous. How many recievers were rated above Marquis Colston? Draft ratings from "draft experts" are not anything close to concrete, take these ratings with a grain of salt.

And what does his wonderlic score matter? I could'nt care less our RB scored an 11. What the hell does it matter? And by your logic than Sherman should not of drafted Javon Walker because we all know about his low wonderlic score of 9, yet you bash TT for letting Walker go. And you say TT is inconsistent?

We just didnt get an extra 6th rounder for moving down, we got 63rd, 109, and 191, which we won on the standard value chart = good trade. One last thing, how is accumulating all these draft picks confusing? I know you arent saying that with all these players we are getting our coaches and GM are getting confused from them, that would just be absurd so I'll take it as a typo.