You Heard It Here First

[HarveyWallbangers]

This will go down as a good draft class. That's going out on a limb for most people, but I'll say it now. I'm optimistic and realistic. I don't like how Ted Thompson has handled FA this offseason. I understand that he probably tried to get a lot more guys than we even know about, but he wasn't successful.

However, I can't think this is a bad draft--since we drafted so many guys that I liked when I did my pre-draft research (Harrell, Jackson, Rouse, Barbre, Clowney). I liked the Crosby pick. I liked the TE in the last round. Not sure about Jones or Wynn. I didn't really research Jones, and I didn't like Wynn much, but maybe he can be a good hybrid RB/FB (like Da Poop). Don't like the Bishop pick because I'm not sure he has the speed to succeed in our scheme. I think Johnson and Simpson have a good shot at making the team over him--provided they stay clean. Not sure about the Hall pick, but we could use some help on ST. Plus, he provides some roster flexibility with FB and LB background.

Overall, I think this class will fall somewhere between 2005 (hard to say; looks average, but Rodgers could change that and losing Murphy really hurt) and 2006 (looks very promising). Grades are silly, I know, but looking back in 5 years, I'm going to predict this will look like a solid B+ draft class.

[BF4MVP]

TT always seems to pick guys that fans think are reaches, etc, and so far it has worked out pretty well..I'm reserving judgement..

I think Jackson will make the most immediate impact of anyone we picked..Maybe Crosby too..

[3irty1]

Why don't they just use Harrell at fullback? We can make our own fridge!!!!!
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[BallHawk]

This is how every draft works out with TT:

Draft Day Reaction: He didn't help Favre. He reached on several players. He's too cautious to trade up, but impulsive to trade down. He wants this team to be his own. This will be a draft we will remember as a blemish in Packer History.

After the season: Wow, TT knew what he was doing. Who knew?

[retailguy]

This will go down as a good draft class. That's going out on a limb for most people, but I'll say it now. I'm optimistic and realistic. I don't like how Ted Thompson has handled FA this offseason. I understand that he probably tried to get a lot more guys than we even know about, but he wasn't successful.

However, I can't think this is a bad draft--since we drafted so many guys that I liked when I did my pre-draft research (Harrell, Jackson, Rouse, Barbre, Clowney). I liked the Crosby pick. I liked the TE in the last round. Not sure about Jones or Wynn. I didn't really research Jones, and I didn't like Wynn much, but maybe he can be a good hybrid RB/FB (like Da Poop). Don't like the Bishop pick because I'm not sure he has the speed to succeed in our scheme. I think Johnson and Simpson have a good shot at making the team over him--provided they stay clean. Not sure about the Hall pick, but we could use some help on ST. Plus, he provides some roster flexibility with FB and LB background.

Overall, I think this class will fall somewhere between 2005 (hard to say; looks average, but Rodgers could change that and losing Murphy really hurt) and 2006 (looks very promising). Grades are silly, I know, but looking back in 5 years, I'm going to predict this will look like a solid B+ draft class.


I know half of this place won't believe me when I say this, but Harv, I don't necessarily disagree with you.

That being said, I'm not sure that this draft class will help much in 2007, which is what I've maintained all along. Will they play supporting roles? Of course, hell the RB might even end up starting. But, realistically, how many balls are the 3rd rd WR, and the 5th rd WR going to catch? 10 to 15 each?

Maybe the DT comes in and lights the world on fire, but, that sure didn't happen with Mario last year. Heck even Julius Peppers needed some time to get acclimated and he's a far better talent than this guy. The RB has the best hope of contributing, and that's not even a sure thing.

Harv, what ticks me off, (not with you, just in general), is this is what I've been saying for 2 months now. WHO IS GOING TO HELP in '07? Everyone told me to wait for the draft, I did, NOW WHAT?

As for the draft class, it could wind up being OK, maybe even good. Don't know, and today, don't care. I want to know what happens in September 2007, not September of 2009.

[falco]

I wonder where SOV is...

[MJZiggy]

Why don't they just use Harrell at fullback? We can make our own fridge!!!!!
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

See? We drafted our offensive weapon right there...

Harvey, I'm totally with you. Optimistic Realism reigns!!

RG, you know I think these guys'll surprise you. Either that or they won't. We'll see very soon.

[Lurker64]

Harv, what ticks me off, (not with you, just in general), is this is what I've been saying for 2 months now. WHO IS GOING TO HELP in '07? Everyone told me to wait for the draft, I did, NOW WHAT?

My suspicion is that the dividends on "draft the guys who will help you a year or two down the line" is that your question can be answered with "the guys TT drafted a year or two ago." If we honestly believe that the guys that TT drafted this year can be good NFL players in a year or two, why don't we think that the players he drafted a year or two ago likewise can't step up and help the team?

I honestly think that the coaching staff and the GM thought safety was much less of a need than we on the internet do, since they've had a hell of a lot more opportunities to look at Underwood, Culver, and Bigby and project their ability to play at a high level in the NFL (they also likely know a hell of a lot more about evaluating talent than any of us do.) There may be similar situations at other positions. Maybe Zac Alcorn and Tory Humphrey have a shot at greatness? I don't know, I've never seen them play, or at least I certainly haven't seen them do anything recently after say a year of practice and a whole offseason (which might do a lot.) Similarly, Donald Lee didn't do much last year but he flashed a lot the year before last. Maybe MM's guys believe, for whatever reason, they can make him into the kind of player he was the year before last.

I think the time to panic is when we see that those guys can't produce by seeing them in preseason, etc. Not when we suspect they can't produce because we haven't seen them in 9 months or so.

[RashanGary]

Harv, what ticks me off, (not with you, just in general), is this is what I've been saying for 2 months now. WHO IS GOING TO HELP in '07? Everyone told me to wait for the draft, I did, NOW WHAT?



That's an easy one. We had our first good draft in 5 years last year. We acctually stand a good chance to see real growth from within. I know, we're not used to that but it really does happen around the league. Look at SD. Look at Cincy..

Guys do get better, just not the ones who are drafted by bad GM's who are reaching for need.

[Scott Campbell]

I wonder where SOV is...


He's a Bears fan now.

[wist43]

This will go down as a good draft class. That's going out on a limb for most people, but I'll say it now. I'm optimistic and realistic. I don't like how Ted Thompson has handled FA this offseason. I understand that he probably tried to get a lot more guys than we even know about, but he wasn't successful.

However, I can't think this is a bad draft--since we drafted so many guys that I liked when I did my pre-draft research (Harrell, Jackson, Rouse, Barbre, Clowney). I liked the Crosby pick. I liked the TE in the last round. Not sure about Jones or Wynn. I didn't really research Jones, and I didn't like Wynn much, but maybe he can be a good hybrid RB/FB (like Da Poop). Don't like the Bishop pick because I'm not sure he has the speed to succeed in our scheme. I think Johnson and Simpson have a good shot at making the team over him--provided they stay clean. Not sure about the Hall pick, but we could use some help on ST. Plus, he provides some roster flexibility with FB and LB background.

Overall, I think this class will fall somewhere between 2005 (hard to say; looks average, but Rodgers could change that and losing Murphy really hurt) and 2006 (looks very promising). Grades are silly, I know, but looking back in 5 years, I'm going to predict this will look like a solid B+ draft class.


I know half of this place won't believe me when I say this, but Harv, I don't necessarily disagree with you.

That being said, I'm not sure that this draft class will help much in 2007, which is what I've maintained all along. Will they play supporting roles? Of course, hell the RB might even end up starting. But, realistically, how many balls are the 3rd rd WR, and the 5th rd WR going to catch? 10 to 15 each?

Maybe the DT comes in and lights the world on fire, but, that sure didn't happen with Mario last year. Heck even Julius Peppers needed some time to get acclimated and he's a far better talent than this guy. The RB has the best hope of contributing, and that's not even a sure thing.

Harv, what ticks me off, (not with you, just in general), is this is what I've been saying for 2 months now. WHO IS GOING TO HELP in '07? Everyone told me to wait for the draft, I did, NOW WHAT?

As for the draft class, it could wind up being OK, maybe even good. Don't know, and today, don't care. I want to know what happens in September 2007, not September of 2009.

I agree with you guys probably for different reasons than each of you have; and, I agree that this will probably be a pretty good draft. If Harrell stays healthy, I think he has a chance to be a damn good player.

First off, I agree with Harv in that this years help should be coming from the '05 and '06 draft choices. I expect improvement out of Colledge, Spitz, Jennings, Hawk, Jolly, and Underwood.

That said, it's not enough, and the Packers really don't stand much of a chance of winning anything. They may have a shot at the division for no other reason than it's pathetic, but they certainly don't scare anyone.

Moving forward, Favre sets his records, has his fill of TT's 10 year plan, and retires... fast forward to the '08 draft. TT will not, under any cirmcustances, draft to fill a need - still a huge hole at WR; CB's are a year older; still no legit TE; and even though I'm hoping that Jackson can be an every down back - I'm not really holding my breath - so you've probably still got a hole at RB.

How in the living hell does he fill all those holes in the '08 draft and offseason??? And, of course we're facing the prospect of not only not having Favre, worse than that, we're going to have Aaron Rodgers under center!!!!

So that gets you thru the '08 season w/o really having a chance to win - and TT still committed to not drafting for need - of course.

That will get you thru 4 years of pretty much nothing under TT... which brings me to my point...

I'm beginning to see TT as a very good talent evaluator, but a poor GM... I know I just said a couple of weeks ago that I thought that TT was a good GM; but, really what I should have said is what I've just said - good scout/talent evaluator, poor GM.

He is beyond rigid... and, steadfastly refuses to make moves to address needs. A good GM needs to do more than just pick the BPA... he needs to flesh out a complete roster. TT believes that, over time, and draft after mind numbing draft, that eventually the talent curve will catch up to the need curve, and all will be well... that's all well and good if your plan to eventually be a winner is a 10-15 year plan.

Pure and simple, if you are to ever have a shot at a championship, you have to actively, and aggressively address needs at some point... TT will never, ever do that - and, b/c of that, and many other reasons, I don't think that TT will ever be capable of bringing a championship back to GB.

TT is a damn good scout... I'd like to see him go back to that. 10 year rebuilding plans just don't cut it in the NFL.

[RashanGary]

What do you think Pickett and Woodson were Wist?


You said after the 4-12 season that the Packers were at minimum 3 years away but more likely 5. That was before you knew what Thompson was about or how he would approach needs. At that time you said the Packers scouting staff was doomed for failure and that TT was going to bring much of the same ballerinas.

Now, 2 years later AFTER Thompson addressed 2 major needs in FA *CB and DT* you're saying that Thompson could have and should have filled all of these holes that you yourself said would be impossible to build in 2 or less years.

The fact is, the only reason we have a team that stands a chance to be pretty average and still have the $$ to go damn crazy if they want is becuase Thompson can build an average team while using about 1/2 of his financial recourses. Depth like you find in SD takes time to build. They have ZERO FA's but they draft for BPA every year and eventually it all piles up to the point where no team can field a team as powerfull as yours.

We're on that track and yes it does take a little longer but that is the way it works. If Favre leaves, we have to hope we get fortunate with a real stud and we will probably struggle but I believe, and at one time you did too, that the Packers are doomed for now anyway. They might as well build it right. They might as well build from the ground up. You'd be more willing to do this if you acctually believed what you said 2 off seasons ago but somehow I don't think you remember how bad this team was and to some degree still is.

[Sparkey]

This will go down as a good draft class. That's going out on a limb for most people, but I'll say it now. I'm optimistic and realistic. I don't like how Ted Thompson has handled FA this offseason. I understand that he probably tried to get a lot more guys than we even know about, but he wasn't successful.

However, I can't think this is a bad draft--since we drafted so many guys that I liked when I did my pre-draft research (Harrell, Jackson, Rouse, Barbre, Clowney). I liked the Crosby pick. I liked the TE in the last round. Not sure about Jones or Wynn. I didn't really research Jones, and I didn't like Wynn much, but maybe he can be a good hybrid RB/FB (like Da Poop). Don't like the Bishop pick because I'm not sure he has the speed to succeed in our scheme. I think Johnson and Simpson have a good shot at making the team over him--provided they stay clean. Not sure about the Hall pick, but we could use some help on ST. Plus, he provides some roster flexibility with FB and LB background.

Overall, I think this class will fall somewhere between 2005 (hard to say; looks average, but Rodgers could change that and losing Murphy really hurt) and 2006 (looks very promising). Grades are silly, I know, but looking back in 5 years, I'm going to predict this will look like a solid B+ draft class.


I know half of this place won't believe me when I say this, but Harv, I don't necessarily disagree with you.

That being said, I'm not sure that this draft class will help much in 2007, which is what I've maintained all along. Will they play supporting roles? Of course, hell the RB might even end up starting. But, realistically, how many balls are the 3rd rd WR, and the 5th rd WR going to catch? 10 to 15 each?

Maybe the DT comes in and lights the world on fire, but, that sure didn't happen with Mario last year. Heck even Julius Peppers needed some time to get acclimated and he's a far better talent than this guy. The RB has the best hope of contributing, and that's not even a sure thing.

Harv, what ticks me off, (not with you, just in general), is this is what I've been saying for 2 months now. WHO IS GOING TO HELP in '07? Everyone told me to wait for the draft, I did, NOW WHAT?

As for the draft class, it could wind up being OK, maybe even good. Don't know, and today, don't care. I want to know what happens in September 2007, not September of 2009.

I agree with you guys probably for different reasons than each of you have; and, I agree that this will probably be a pretty good draft. If Harrell stays healthy, I think he has a chance to be a damn good player.

First off, I agree with Harv in that this years help should be coming from the '05 and '06 draft choices. I expect improvement out of Colledge, Spitz, Jennings, Hawk, Jolly, and Underwood.

That said, it's not enough, and the Packers really don't stand much of a chance of winning anything. They may have a shot at the division for no other reason than it's pathetic, but they certainly don't scare anyone.

Moving forward, Favre sets his records, has his fill of TT's 10 year plan, and retires... fast forward to the '08 draft. TT will not, under any cirmcustances, draft to fill a need - still a huge hole at WR; CB's are a year older; still no legit TE; and even though I'm hoping that Jackson can be an every down back - I'm not really holding my breath - so you've probably still got a hole at RB.

How in the living hell does he fill all those holes in the '08 draft and offseason??? And, of course we're facing the prospect of not only not having Favre, worse than that, we're going to have Aaron Rodgers under center!!!!

So that gets you thru the '08 season w/o really having a chance to win - and TT still committed to not drafting for need - of course.

That will get you thru 4 years of pretty much nothing under TT... which brings me to my point...

I'm beginning to see TT as a very good talent evaluator, but a poor GM... I know I just said a couple of weeks ago that I thought that TT was a good GM; but, really what I should have said is what I've just said - good scout/talent evaluator, poor GM.

He is beyond rigid... and, steadfastly refuses to make moves to address needs. A good GM needs to do more than just pick the BPA... he needs to flesh out a complete roster. TT believes that, over time, and draft after mind numbing draft, that eventually the talent curve will catch up to the need curve, and all will be well... that's all well and good if your plan to eventually be a winner is a 10-15 year plan.

Pure and simple, if you are to ever have a shot at a championship, you have to actively, and aggressively address needs at some point... TT will never, ever do that - and, b/c of that, and many other reasons, I don't think that TT will ever be capable of bringing a championship back to GB.

TT is a damn good scout... I'd like to see him go back to that. 10 year rebuilding plans just don't cut it in the NFL.

So is Green Bay one or two players away from being a SUperBowl contender?

I dont know how anyone could believe that to be true and that is the only time you see teams make bold aggressive moves. When they believe they are only a player or two away. New England for example.

Would two stud players put GB in the same category as Indy or SanDiego or New England etc? Answer... No. So be patient and build slowly and then if you manage your drafts, you can maintain that level somewhat....

[Iron Mike]

I wonder where SOV is...


He's a Bears fan now.

HAHAHAHA!!! BEAR DOWN PISS AND MOLD CLOWNS! :roll:

[RashanGary]

My point is that blowing our wad now would only result in mediocrity. I'm willing to take a risk and lay it on the line for excellence. I'm willing to allow a guy to build it the right way; to take that chance of finding a special player to hang our cheesehead on. I'm sick of sticking one finger in the hole of an old canoe to find another one popping up 3 inches away. Eventually you run out of fingers as Harlan found out when he fired the douche bag that preceeded Thompson. The only hope was to build a new, state of the art canoe; one with a fucking 120 horse yamaha outboard strapped to the back and rockets on the sides. Bring in the best damn canoe craftsman you can find and let him do his work. He might have to climb to the top of a far away mountain to cut down the tree of fucking canoe glory but let this guy do his job. That is where we are at. You knew it at one time but apparently the imrpovement and massive amounts of money have you forgetting how impossible this task once was. That alone is a good sign if you would take the time to see it.

[retailguy]

My point is that blowing our wad now would only result in mediocrity. I'm willing to take a risk and lay it on the line for excellence. I'm willing to allow a guy to build it the right way; that chance of finding a special player to hang our hat on. I'm sick of sticking one finger in the hole of an old canoe to find another one popping up 3 inches away. Eventually you run out of fingers as Harlan found out when he fired the douche bag that preceeded Thompson. The only hope was to build a new, state of the art canoe with a fucking 120 horse yamaha outboard strapped to the back rockets on the side. Bring in the best damn canoe tradesman you can find and let him do his work. That is where we are at. You knew it at one time but apparently the imrpovement and massive amounts of money have you forgetting how impossible this task once was. That alone is a good sign if you would take the time to see it.

You should talk with Guerski... He could tell you a story about the value of a Taco, and the value of a Running Back.

You guys need new metaphors. Bad.

Enjoy your canoe. I'm planning to watch some football, win or lose. And, I fear, that they'll be many more losses than wins, and probably only about 6 players of Sherman's left.

You need a new excuse. Bad.

[Bretsky]

This will go down as a good draft class. That's going out on a limb for most people, but I'll say it now. I'm optimistic and realistic. I don't like how Ted Thompson has handled FA this offseason. I understand that he probably tried to get a lot more guys than we even know about, but he wasn't successful.

However, I can't think this is a bad draft--since we drafted so many guys that I liked when I did my pre-draft research (Harrell, Jackson, Rouse, Barbre, Clowney). I liked the Crosby pick. I liked the TE in the last round. Not sure about Jones or Wynn. I didn't really research Jones, and I didn't like Wynn much, but maybe he can be a good hybrid RB/FB (like Da Poop). Don't like the Bishop pick because I'm not sure he has the speed to succeed in our scheme. I think Johnson and Simpson have a good shot at making the team over him--provided they stay clean. Not sure about the Hall pick, but we could use some help on ST. Plus, he provides some roster flexibility with FB and LB background.

Overall, I think this class will fall somewhere between 2005 (hard to say; looks average, but Rodgers could change that and losing Murphy really hurt) and 2006 (looks very promising). Grades are silly, I know, but looking back in 5 years, I'm going to predict this will look like a solid B+ draft class.


Actually I've heard it from a shitload of analysts on the Internet :lol:

Then again many of them don't like it as well.

I'm taking a new approach. Knowing we have little chance of contending in the near future, my expectations are low. It feels much better.


Cheers,
B

[RashanGary]

RG, there are only about 7 players of Shermans left in the whole NFL. I think you need a new excuse. Bad ;)

[Bretsky]

RG, there are only about 7 players of Shermans left in the whole NFL. I think you need a new excuse. Bad ;)

Are there really only 7 left ? OK, I need to think about this one

[Joemailman]

RG, there are only about 7 players of Shermans left in the whole NFL. I think you need a new excuse. Bad ;)

Oh, come on. There must be that many in Houston alone. :D

[Bretsky]

1 Barnett
2 Kampman
3 Ahmad Carroll
4 Hunter Hillenmeyer
5 Corey Williams
6 Scott Wells
7 Javon Walker
8 Marques Anderson
9 Najeh Davenport
10 Craig Nall
11 Mike Houghton (I think he is still a backup on Buffalo, but not positive)
12 2003 Round Two Pick---Traded for Al Harris

[RashanGary]

1 Barnett
2 Kampman
3 Ahmad Carroll
4 Hunter Hillenmeyer
5 Corey Williams
6 Scott Wells
7 Javon Walker
8 Marques Anderson
9 Najeh Davenport
10 Craig Nall
11 Mike Houghton (I think he is still a backup on Buffalo, but not positive)
12 2003 Round Two Pick---Traded for Al Harris


Pretty bad.

[ND72]

I just laugh, cause in the 4 years as GM, Sherman had 23 draft picks total. Thompson had 23 total picks after his 2nd year, up to 34 picks now. we might less guys not make the team from Thompson, than still in the league from Sherman....it's just the different philosophies...Sherman wanted to win NOW, didn't care about later. Thompson wants to win, but also sees there needs to be a later.

[Bretsky]

1 Barnett
2 Kampman
3 Ahmad Carroll
4 Hunter Hillenmeyer
5 Corey Williams
6 Scott Wells
7 Javon Walker
8 Marques Anderson
9 Najeh Davenport
10 Craig Nall
11 Mike Houghton (I think he is still a backup on Buffalo, but not positive)
12 2003 Round Two Pick---Traded for Al Harris


Pretty bad.

Well, he's drafted two Pro Bowl players and another potential one in Barnett.

Kampman, Williams, Barnett, Walker, Hillenmeyer, Wells are current starters

For the record, I did not and do not like Sherman the GM. His moves in managing the cap severely hurt us.

But he's not as bad as drafter as I use to think he was. If you count Al Harris, he's produced seven starters in three years and four to five current backups.

Two Pro Bowl players and possibly three when Barnett makes it, if he does.

He erred terribly in some draft moves and in packaging picks to trade up for the wrong players; TT consistently trades down to gather up multiple picks and hopes he hits.

I definitely prefer the TT route; but Sherman isn't as terrible as I use to think he was.

[esoxx]

1 Barnett
2 Kampman
3 Ahmad Carroll
4 Hunter Hillenmeyer
5 Corey Williams
6 Scott Wells
7 Javon Walker
8 Marques Anderson
9 Najeh Davenport
10 Craig Nall
11 Mike Houghton (I think he is still a backup on Buffalo, but not positive)
12 2003 Round Two Pick---Traded for Al Harris

13 Kevin Barry
14 Antonio Chatman
15 Tony Fischer
16 Terdell Sands

There may be others

[HarveyWallbangers]

Of just his draft picks?

[ND72]

1 Barnett
2 Kampman
3 Ahmad Carroll
4 Hunter Hillenmeyer
5 Corey Williams
6 Scott Wells
7 Javon Walker
8 Marques Anderson
9 Najeh Davenport
10 Craig Nall
11 Mike Houghton (I think he is still a backup on Buffalo, but not positive)
12 2003 Round Two Pick---Traded for Al Harris

13 Kevin Barry
14 Antonio Chatman
15 Tony Fischer
16 Terdell Sands

There may be others


I believe those were undrafted Free Agents. You're right...but they weren't draft picks :D

[Partial]

This will go down as a good draft class. That's going out on a limb for most people, but I'll say it now. I'm optimistic and realistic. I don't like how Ted Thompson has handled FA this offseason. I understand that he probably tried to get a lot more guys than we even know about, but he wasn't successful.

However, I can't think this is a bad draft--since we drafted so many guys that I liked when I did my pre-draft research (Harrell, Jackson, Rouse, Barbre, Clowney). I liked the Crosby pick. I liked the TE in the last round. Not sure about Jones or Wynn. I didn't really research Jones, and I didn't like Wynn much, but maybe he can be a good hybrid RB/FB (like Da Poop). Don't like the Bishop pick because I'm not sure he has the speed to succeed in our scheme. I think Johnson and Simpson have a good shot at making the team over him--provided they stay clean. Not sure about the Hall pick, but we could use some help on ST. Plus, he provides some roster flexibility with FB and LB background.



Overall, I think this class will fall somewhere between 2005 (hard to say; looks average, but Rodgers could change that and losing Murphy really hurt) and 2006 (looks very promising). Grades are silly, I know, but looking back in 5 years, I'm going to predict this will look like a solid B+ draft class.


I know half of this place won't believe me when I say this, but Harv, I don't necessarily disagree with you.

That being said, I'm not sure that this draft class will help much in 2007, which is what I've maintained all along. Will they play supporting roles? Of course, hell the RB might even end up starting. But, realistically, how many balls are the 3rd rd WR, and the 5th rd WR going to catch? 10 to 15 each?

Maybe the DT comes in and lights the world on fire, but, that sure didn't happen with Mario last year. Heck even Julius Peppers needed some time to get acclimated and he's a far better talent than this guy. The RB has the best hope of contributing, and that's not even a sure thing.

Harv, what ticks me off, (not with you, just in general), is this is what I've been saying for 2 months now. WHO IS GOING TO HELP in '07? Everyone told me to wait for the draft, I did, NOW WHAT?

As for the draft class, it could wind up being OK, maybe even good. Don't know, and today, don't care. I want to know what happens in September 2007, not September of 2009.

Jpepp had 12 sacks his rookie year after missing 4 games. He lit it up right away!!!

[esoxx]

Yeah I know. Just thinking of players signed into the league under GM Sherman's watch. Or was it sleep?

[HarveyWallbangers]

13 Kevin Barry
14 Antonio Chatman
15 Tony Fischer
16 Terdell Sands

There may be others

These guys weren't drafted.

Houghton has been out of the league for 3 years, so that drops it back down 10 players.

10 drafted players over a 4 year span are still in the league? Ugh!

I wonder how that would compare to Seattle's drafts over the same 4 years.

Koren Robinson*
Steve Hutchinson
Ken Lucas
Heath Evans
Orlando Huff
Dennis Norman
Jerramy Stevens
Maurice Morris
Rocky Bernard
Marcus Trufant
Ken Hamlin
Wayne Hunter
Seneca Wallace
Rashad Moore
Josh Brown
Marcus Tubbs
Michael Boulware
Sean Locklear
Niko Koutouvides
D.J. Hackett
Craig Terrill
Donnie Jones

Looks like 22--if you count Koren Robinson.

[Bretsky]

crap; DP

[Bretsky]

10 drafted players and Al Harris

And who was going back four years ?? I was using the three years Sherman was in charge of the draft.

10 players plus Al Harris isn't terrible for three years

[retailguy]

10 drafted players and Al Harris

And who was going back four years ?? I was using the three years Sherman was in charge of the draft.

10 players plus Al Harris isn't terrible for three years

Considering he only drafted 23 that's like 44% still playing! :wink:

[wist43]

What do you think Pickett and Woodson were Wist?


You said after the 4-12 season that the Packers were at minimum 3 years away but more likely 5. That was before you knew what Thompson was about or how he would approach needs. At that time you said the Packers scouting staff was doomed for failure and that TT was going to bring much of the same ballerinas.

Now, 2 years later AFTER Thompson addressed 2 major needs in FA *CB and DT* you're saying that Thompson could have and should have filled all of these holes that you yourself said would be impossible to build in 2 or less years.

The fact is, the only reason we have a team that stands a chance to be pretty average and still have the $$ to go damn crazy if they want is becuase Thompson can build an average team while using about 1/2 of his financial recourses. Depth like you find in SD takes time to build. They have ZERO FA's but they draft for BPA every year and eventually it all piles up to the point where no team can field a team as powerfull as yours.

We're on that track and yes it does take a little longer but that is the way it works. If Favre leaves, we have to hope we get fortunate with a real stud and we will probably struggle but I believe, and at one time you did too, that the Packers are doomed for now anyway. They might as well build it right. They might as well build from the ground up. You'd be more willing to do this if you acctually believed what you said 2 off seasons ago but somehow I don't think you remember how bad this team was and to some degree still is.

Think about what you're saying, "we have a team that stands a chance to be pretty average"...

I was one of the loudest in terms of saying how bad the team was - before the record relected it - and, I've given TT plenty of credit for restocking the team to get them to where they are now;

however,

This is TT's 3rd draft and off season, and given the fluid situation that personnel movement is in the NFL... it's not unreasonable to have some expectation that some of the teams weaknesses should be addressed directly, and immediately.

I like Harrell a lot, but the difference between him and Pickett, Williams, and Jolly isn't as great as the difference between Lynch and Morency; or, Meachem and Ferguson or Martin.

And since TT said he was considering Meachem at 16, he obviously had him rated highly. Would drafting Meachem help us "win now"??? No, but if his talent is rated as being at least comparable to Harrell's, then picking Meachem makes the team better than picking Harrell.

Some team building algebra... I'm not even alluding to, or speculating about the success of the players being talked about. I'm simply making an academic observation projecting that all will be at least equally successful.

[SudsMcBucky]

[quote="retailguy

Harv, what ticks me off, (not with you, just in general), is this is what I've been saying for 2 months now. WHO IS GOING TO HELP in '07? Everyone told me to wait for the draft, I did, NOW WHAT?

As for the draft class, it could wind up being OK, maybe even good. Don't know, and today, don't care. I want to know what happens in September 2007, not September of 2009.[/quote]

It's just my opinion, but I have a feeling TT will become active during preseason cuts, with a lot of cap room to fill some of those voids for short-term fixes with camp cuts. I know it's another team's garbage, but sometimes, a team can just be really loaded at a position and cut a vet for a promising rook that could help us temporarily.

[swede]

I like Harrell a lot, but the difference between him and Pickett, Williams, and Jolly isn't as great as the difference between Lynch and Morency; or, Meachem and Ferguson or Martin.


I think dominant defensive lines screw up the other team's offense a lot more than the presence of a good running back or a good wide receiver screws up a defense.

I can't see how either Lynch (who was gone at 12) or Meacham would have singlehandedly change this team's fortunes (or the fortunes of the teams that drafted them). I doubt either will have as much impact as Reggie Bush did, and that wasn't much either.

What I like about picking defense in the first round is the higher possibility that players can be productive in their rookie seasons.

[HarveyWallbangers]

And since TT said he was considering Meachem at 16, he obviously had him rated highly. Would drafting Meachem help us "win now"??? No, but if his talent is rated as being at least comparable to Harrell's, then picking Meachem makes the team better than picking Harrell.

Maybe Thompson and the Packers scouting staff felt Meachem's talent wasn't "at least comparable to Harrell". Otherwise, they likely would have taken him.

[Bossman641]

[quote="retailguy

Harv, what ticks me off, (not with you, just in general), is this is what I've been saying for 2 months now. WHO IS GOING TO HELP in '07? Everyone told me to wait for the draft, I did, NOW WHAT?

As for the draft class, it could wind up being OK, maybe even good. Don't know, and today, don't care. I want to know what happens in September 2007, not September of 2009.

It's just my opinion, but I have a feeling TT will become active during preseason cuts, with a lot of cap room to fill some of those voids for short-term fixes with camp cuts. I know it's another team's garbage, but sometimes, a team can just be really loaded at a position and cut a vet for a promising rook that could help us temporarily.[/quote]

I highly doubt it. June 1st cuts, especially with the increase in the salary cap, are a thing of the past. Maybe we'd get a young backup with some potential (TT's favorite), but I highly doubt us picking up anyone productive.

[MJZiggy]

We had that problem last year didn't we? Everyone was salivating over June 1 cuts that never came.

Then again, TT did pick up one or two with roster cutdowns IIRC (unless I don't RC)

[Patler]

10 drafted players and Al Harris

And who was going back four years ?? I was using the three years Sherman was in charge of the draft.

10 players plus Al Harris isn't terrible for three years

I think you can scratch Marques Anderson off your list too. I believe he was released and not picked up by anyone at the start of last season. I don't think he played at all in 2006.

[4and12to12and4]

This will go down as a good draft class. That's going out on a limb for most people, but I'll say it now. I'm optimistic and realistic. I don't like how Ted Thompson has handled FA this offseason. I understand that he probably tried to get a lot more guys than we even know about, but he wasn't successful.

However, I can't think this is a bad draft--since we drafted so many guys that I liked when I did my pre-draft research (Harrell, Jackson, Rouse, Barbre, Clowney). I liked the Crosby pick. I liked the TE in the last round. Not sure about Jones or Wynn. I didn't really research Jones, and I didn't like Wynn much, but maybe he can be a good hybrid RB/FB (like Da Poop). Don't like the Bishop pick because I'm not sure he has the speed to succeed in our scheme. I think Johnson and Simpson have a good shot at making the team over him--provided they stay clean. Not sure about the Hall pick, but we could use some help on ST. Plus, he provides some roster flexibility with FB and LB background.

Overall, I think this class will fall somewhere between 2005 (hard to say; looks average, but Rodgers could change that and losing Murphy really hurt) and 2006 (looks very promising). Grades are silly, I know, but looking back in 5 years, I'm going to predict this will look like a solid B+ draft class.


I know half of this place won't believe me when I say this, but Harv, I don't necessarily disagree with you.

That being said, I'm not sure that this draft class will help much in 2007, which is what I've maintained all along. Will they play supporting roles? Of course, hell the RB might even end up starting. But, realistically, how many balls are the 3rd rd WR, and the 5th rd WR going to catch? 10 to 15 each?

Maybe the DT comes in and lights the world on fire, but, that sure didn't happen with Mario last year. Heck even Julius Peppers needed some time to get acclimated and he's a far better talent than this guy. The RB has the best hope of contributing, and that's not even a sure thing.

Harv, what ticks me off, (not with you, just in general), is this is what I've been saying for 2 months now. WHO IS GOING TO HELP in '07? Everyone told me to wait for the draft, I did, NOW WHAT?

As for the draft class, it could wind up being OK, maybe even good. Don't know, and today, don't care. I want to know what happens in September 2007, not September of 2009.

I agree with you guys probably for different reasons than each of you have; and, I agree that this will probably be a pretty good draft. If Harrell stays healthy, I think he has a chance to be a damn good player.

First off, I agree with Harv in that this years help should be coming from the '05 and '06 draft choices. I expect improvement out of Colledge, Spitz, Jennings, Hawk, Jolly, and Underwood.

That said, it's not enough, and the Packers really don't stand much of a chance of winning anything. They may have a shot at the division for no other reason than it's pathetic, but they certainly don't scare anyone.

Moving forward, Favre sets his records, has his fill of TT's 10 year plan, and retires... fast forward to the '08 draft. TT will not, under any cirmcustances, draft to fill a need - still a huge hole at WR; CB's are a year older; still no legit TE; and even though I'm hoping that Jackson can be an every down back - I'm not really holding my breath - so you've probably still got a hole at RB.

How in the living hell does he fill all those holes in the '08 draft and offseason??? And, of course we're facing the prospect of not only not having Favre, worse than that, we're going to have Aaron Rodgers under center!!!!

So that gets you thru the '08 season w/o really having a chance to win - and TT still committed to not drafting for need - of course.

That will get you thru 4 years of pretty much nothing under TT... which brings me to my point...

I'm beginning to see TT as a very good talent evaluator, but a poor GM... I know I just said a couple of weeks ago that I thought that TT was a good GM; but, really what I should have said is what I've just said - good scout/talent evaluator, poor GM.

He is beyond rigid... and, steadfastly refuses to make moves to address needs. A good GM needs to do more than just pick the BPA... he needs to flesh out a complete roster. TT believes that, over time, and draft after mind numbing draft, that eventually the talent curve will catch up to the need curve, and all will be well... that's all well and good if your plan to eventually be a winner is a 10-15 year plan.

Pure and simple, if you are to ever have a shot at a championship, you have to actively, and aggressively address needs at some point... TT will never, ever do that - and, b/c of that, and many other reasons, I don't think that TT will ever be capable of bringing a championship back to GB.

TT is a damn good scout... I'd like to see him go back to that. 10 year rebuilding plans just don't cut it in the NFL.

Wow!! That was depressing, Wist. I know your a skeptical Rat and all, but, how 'bout comin' off the cliff for a moment, and listen to reason.

It's real easy to complain about the GM of your team. In fact, every team in the league could be doing that at this moment, except Colts fans. Why? Because they have the trophy this year. So, unless you actually WIN the Superbowl, you've really done nothing. I live in the Chicagoland area, and most of my friends are Bears junkys. They bitched all year about the Grossman/Griese decision, especially in the first half of the final game, when we picked three off of him. But, then, Griese came in and had two picks himself, and they shut the hell up real quick.

Having said that, we only know a small portion of what goes on in TT's office. We know that last year he tried getting more players here than Chuck through FA. Alot of players didn't want to come to a 4-12 team who's HOF QB may be retiring. He tried to get Moss this year, and when he picked Harrell, probably thought that was still a legitimate option. (Not that any of the receivers left were worth a damn anyways, I would prefer to just keep Holiday and Ruvell with Jennings, KRob, and Driver, than have to try to fight with an agent for an overpriced 16th pick receiver that probably wouldn't even make the cut over the above mentioned).

TT has drastically improved the talent of our defense. There were times last year, when they put it all together, and had some really good games and portions of games (the youngest defense in the NFL, mind you). Obvoiusly our O-line and D-line will be even more improved this year, and TT knows that's the key to winning.

Look how Matt Millen has tried to put a team together, thinking that great receivers and skill players will win ballgames. They don't. It's almost always won in the trenches as long as your skill players are a little better than average, which is what I think our receiving core and DB's are right now. The RB position doesn't worry me, it's more about the blocking scheme and those guys handling their responsibilities, than it is the running back. (ask Edgerrin James). Only a couple RB's in the league are worth investing large sums of money into. (Larry, Ladanian, and, maybe, Reggie).

I'm not saying I agree with all of TT's moves, but, I know that our defense could be a force this coming year, and with Brett back there, who knows, we could get deep into the playoffs. Heck, we almost made the playoffs last year, on a roll. Look how we played against the Bears.

I don't think it is as bleak as you suggest. I have seen much improvement in alot of areas. And, as it has been pointed out in many other threads here, if TT was just ignorantly picking by BPA, we would have Brady Quinn right now.

So, my take on TT is that he truly DID think we need more depth at tackle, and if Harrell works out, we will be able to rest our starters and rotate during the game, allowing our defensive line to be dominant in the fourth quarter of games, which will cause all kinds of problems for tired offensive lineman and Qb's and will allow our backers and DB's to make plays in the crucial and final moments of games. (Remember the Cowboys of the 90's, that was their formula for success. Their o-line and d-line eventually wore out all its opponents and Irvin, Emmitt, and co. reaped the benefits.

I'm glad our GM isn't running things like Detroit and Washington where tons of money is being thrown at skill players, and there is no steady improvement in their clubs. We HAVE seen improvement, and I believe if Brett stays healthy all year, we will be back in the playoffs this year.

I know that TT probably is thinking "damn, if I knew quinn would be sitting there this year, I wouldn't have gone after Aaron", but know one could have predicted that happening.

So, take a chill pill, we are a young improving team, and defense wins championships, not offense. Even the Colts' defense had great postseason games when their offense struggled, and if not for their defense, wouldn't have got past the Ravens last year to win the SB. I like our team and TT seems to pick guys who love the game of football and bust their asses out on the field. Let's give him some accolades for that, at least.

[retailguy]

We had that problem last year didn't we? Everyone was salivating over June 1 cuts that never came.

Then again, TT did pick up one or two with roster cutdowns IIRC (unless I don't RC)


Agreed. Yes, we'll probably get ONE guy, maybe TWO if we're lucky.... Most likely, we've got who we've got for 2007...

[RashanGary]

RG,

I set the bar at improvement. Thompson is collecting resources and buidling a base without overextending or even extending for that matter. IF we improve, without using our recources I think that is a good thing.

If we do improve and our team does win 8 or more games out of this tough schedule what are you going to say about the job Thompson has done.

I'll be here and I've said a multiple times over the last couple weeks that I'm going to hold Ted accountable if we start to regress. Are you going to be here to give him credit if we take antoher step forward. I know where you stand as far as what you expect but if it does happen are you going to be here patting Thompson on the back?

[retailguy]

RG,

I set the bar at improvement. Thompson is collecting resources and buidling a base without overextending or even extending for that matter. IF we improve, without using our recources I think that is a good thing.

If we do improve and our team does win 8 or more games out of this tough schedule what are you going to say about the job Thompson has done.

I'll be here and I've said a multiple times over the last couple weeks that I'm going to hold Ted accountable if we start to regress. Are you going to be here to give him credit if we take antoher step forward. I know where you stand as for as what you expect but if it does happen are you going to be here patting Thompson on the back?

If this team even sniffs at 8 wins, I'll be doing cartwheels in the street. I think 5 wins is an accomplishment, and I fear that is optimistic.

Will I be patting Thompson on the back? No probably not. 8 wins is nothing to get excited about while Brett gets another step closer to retirement.

I'm not a Thompson hater. I know you keep trying to make me out to be one, and I guess you'll die trying. I don't hate the guy, I just vehemently disagree with his "short term plan". I think a more robust short term plan can be implemented without disrupting the long term plan. I happen to agree with MOST of the longterm plan.

[RashanGary]

I think the main difference we have is that you think it's possible to go the the SB if we make the right moves and I think that there is no amount of moves that can be made that would bring this team to the SuperBowl right now.


Your bar is a little higher than mine, but I think it would be safe to say that if we finish the season with an 8-8 mark on a hard schedule that we are average and from there; you'd probably be willing to say Thompson is average even on the short-term and that is not including the long term implications; right?

If we can't agree on what success, failure and status quo is then all of this interesting debate will never have a form of measure. I enjoy these conversations so I'd like them to have some focus, know what I mean?

[Brohm]

Wasn't Woodson a June 1st cut? (don't remember if he was releassed outright).

[Joemailman]

If this team even sniffs at 8 wins, I'll be doing cartwheels in the street.


Youtube, here we come. :P Will you dress up as the Kool-Aid Guy?


Wasn't Woodson a June 1st cut? (don't remember if he was releassed outright).

Wasn't Woodson a UFA?

[RashanGary]

I'm pretty sure he was cut outright but it seemed nobody wanted to take a risk so he lasted quite a while.

[wist43]

First off, I give TT plenty of credit for the '05 draft... very good draft, that generally restocked the team - some of the restocking being necessary, however b/c TT punted both Walker and Wahle - and no, I don't want to reargue any of that.

Secondly, I think TT is a good talent evaluator... to date, I'd say his drafts have generally been better than a lot of Wolfe's.

So if I think TT is good talent evaluator, and I think he's done a respectable job of restocking the team, how can I dis him by saying he may be a bad GM???

I will use Wolfe, whom I considered to be a very good GM, as a comparison.

I'm inclined to think that TT is a better judge of college talent than Wolfe; however, Wolfe was no slouch in this area. That said, Wolfe was not shy about making moves to fill holes, and he was generally one of the most active GM's in the league in terms of trades, FA signings, and the utilization of draft picks to acquire veterans.

- Wolfe traded a 1st round pick for Favre - do I need to point out that TT would never, ever, have done that??? Even the most ardent TT apologist wouldn't argue this I don't think; he traded a 2nd rounder for Keith Jackson; he signed his entire starting defensive line off of the FA market - making the biggest FA signing ever (White) - do I need to point out that TT would never, ever, have done that???; he aggressively filled holes in FA whenever he needed to... Rison and Robinson come to mind.

In short, for me, Wolfe was the epitome of what a GM should be. He certainly had his share of blunders, and I was very critical of him at times, but in the end, I knew he knew football, I knew he knew how to build a team, and I knew he would always be aggressive in trying to either get his team to the top, or to keep them there. To him, FA and trades were tools to be used. Yes, he regarded the draft as the bedrock of his building plans, but he allowed himself to be flexible, and believed in his own abilities enough to take chances based on nothing more than his gut.

TT, on the other hand, has an almost pathological singlemindedness toward building a team - draft, draft, and more draft. His defenders will point out Woodson and Pickett, and that's valid I suppose, but I would tend to look at those two guys as aberrations 1) b/c they both worked out, and 2) b/c they languished somewhat inexplicably on the open market, with virtually no other active suitors.

Perhaps I can be accused of being impatient, but I think I can defend that by saying that my impatience is born out of the belief that Rodgers can't play - and that puts us at least 2-3 years down the line from where we are now, with no realistic shot at being markedly improved from where we are today.

I'm sure there are some out there that actually believe that Rodgers can step right in and perform at least as well as Favre, but I think that's incredibly wishful thinking. I think it's much more realistic to expect there to be a huge drop off at the most critical position on the team.

Combine that with some of the other things I've mentioned, i.e. Driver, Clifton, Woodson, and Harris all on the wrong side of 30; the already existing holes; and TT's penchant for conservatism...

Add it up, and I see a long few years ahead.




That nothwithstanding, I plan on enjoying every minute watching Favre break records this season... How's that for a ray of sunshine in my rain clouds??? :wink:

[Bretsky]

First off, I give TT plenty of credit for the '05 draft... very good draft, that generally restocked the team - some of the restocking being necessary, however b/c TT punted both Walker and Wahle - and no, I don't want to reargue any of that.

Secondly, I think TT is a good talent evaluator... to date, I'd say his drafts have generally been better than a lot of Wolfe's.

So if I think TT is good talent evaluator, and I think he's done a respectable job of restocking the team, how can I dis him by saying he may be a bad GM???

I will use Wolfe, whom I considered to be a very good GM, as a comparison.

I'm inclinded to think that TT is a better judge of college talent than Wolfe; however, Wolfe was no slouch in this area. That said, Wolfe was not shy about making moves to fill holes, and he was generally one of the most active GM's in the league in terms of trades, FA signings, and the utilization of draft picks to acquire veterans.

- Wolfe traded a 1st round pick for Favre - do I need to point out that TT would never, ever, have done that??? Even the most ardent TT apologist wouldn't argue this I don't think; he traded a 2nd rounder for Keith Jackson; he signed his entire starting defensive line off of the FA market - making the biggest FA signing ever (White) - do I need to point out that TT would never, ever, have done that???; he aggressively filled holes in FA whenever he needed to... Rison and Robinson come to mind.

In short, for me, Wolfe was the epitome of what a GM should be. He certainly had his share of blunders, and I was very critical of him at times, but in the end, I knew he knew football, I knew he knew how to build a team, and I knew he would always be aggressive in trying to either get his team to the top, or to keep them there. To him, FA and trades were tools to be used. Yes, he regarded the draft as the bedrock of his building plans, but he allowed himself to be flexible, and believed in his own abilities enough to take chances based on nothing more than his gut.

TT, on the other hand, has an almost pathological singlemindedness toward building a team - draft, draft, and more draft. His defenders will point out Woodson and Pickett, and that's valid I suppose, but I would tend to look at those two guys as aberrations 1) b/c they both worked out, and 2) b/c they languished somewhat inexplicably on the open market, with virtually no other active suitors.

Combine that with some of the other things I've mentioned, i.e. Driver, Clifton, Woodson, and Harris all on the wrong side of 30; the already existing holes; and TT's penchant for conservatism...



That nothwithstanding, I plan on enjoying every minute watching Favre break records this season... How's that for a ray of sunshine in my rain clouds??? :wink:

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

[wist43]

I think the main difference we have is that you think it's possible to go the the SB if we make the right moves and I think that there is no amount of moves that can be made that would bring this team to the SuperBowl right now.


Your bar is a little higher than mine, but I think it would be safe to say that if we finish the season with an 8-8 mark on a hard schedule that we are average and from there; you'd probably be willing to say Thompson is average even on the short-term and that is not including the long term implications; right?

If we can't agree on what success, failure and status quo is then all of this interesting debate will never have a form of measure. I enjoy these conversations so I'd like them to have some focus, know what I mean?

JH,

See my above post...

Question for you, how would you feel about our chances in the upcoming season if Aaron Rodgers is our starting QB???

To that question, I again say, "see my above post".

[RashanGary]

I agree with just about everything you said Wist. I draw the conclusion that it's better to take the risk and start over and you draw the conclusion that it's time to take a shot.

I'll argue that when Sherm took the shot we were a lot closer adn I don't even mind it that much becaue he got pretty close. Still, he took a good team with a 33 year old Favre adn a 25 year old Green and dumped all his resources into winning right NOW. If he failed with that team, I strongly feel we'd fail again.

It's sort of gloomy but the only thing we can do now is start over and build the base. Maybe some day we'll have a chance to take that shot again.

[RashanGary]

I agree Wist and the question makes a ton of sense. I've really given up on this team short term.

I've fully given up, even more then you apparently because it never crosses my mind that Favre will win the SB. I just look at it as we missed the oppertunity and we're starting over.

[retailguy]

I think the main difference we have is that you think it's possible to go the the SB if we make the right moves and I think that there is no amount of moves that can be made that would bring this team to the SuperBowl right now.


Your bar is a little higher than mine, but I think it would be safe to say that if we finish the season with an 8-8 mark on a hard schedule that we are average and from there; you'd probably be willing to say Thompson is average even on the short-term and that is not including the long term implications; right?

If we can't agree on what success, failure and status quo is then all of this interesting debate will never have a form of measure. I enjoy these conversations so I'd like them to have some focus, know what I mean?

Again, I think you mis-understand my position. I didn't think the Packers were headed to the Super Bowl at any point this offseason. That being said, if they don't play competitive football and get into the playoffs they CAN'T go to the Super Bowl which is the current situation as I see it.

I think a few free agents, combined with a re-signed Ahman Green would have made it possible, and dare I say, even likely that this team could have competed for a playoff spot.

In 2002, no one with half a brain thought that the Patriots could win a super bowl much less compete in the Playoffs. Two years ago, no one again thought that the Steelers (who were the 6th seed) would make it either. But, it happened. Not necessarily likely, but it happened.

You position your team to be competitive and then hope for a bit of luck, some team spirit, and a playoff run. Isn't that better than trumpeting "our hope" for 8-8 and "some improvement", with a playoff berth "just a few years away"?

If you want to "frame" this discussion, good luck, because the minute you "land" a point with someone, they zig zag right into another point, instead of considering what you've got to say, or admitting your point had merit. For me, I'm somewhat happy with the "long-term" direction of this football team.

I'm very unhappy with the 2007 version of this team, that I see today.

I'm very disappointed in the Ted Thompson who "broadcasts his view on free agency", I think he's got a lot to learn about being a "GM" instead of a talent evaluator, and I think he's missing and undervaluing a very useful resource in building a winning football team.

I furthermore, think that he is "sending" an unintended message to all NFL free agents, and that is, "don't go to GB unless you're desperate", because that "guy doesn't like your type".

If, and I say IF, Moss "chose" NE over GB, don't you think it's POSSIBLE that it had to do with "perception" of Green Bay? We make decisions on perception all the time, perhaps, Randy, and several other free agents had the "perception" that they wouldn't be treated fairly here, because Ted has been so outspoken about the "evils" of free agency? How does that help build a winning football team? Wouldn't it be better to keep those views to himself? Why broadcast that, and then clam up about everything else? Why not just clam up about everything?

[Lurker64]

Realistically, I think that TT is learning on the job. This is his first NFL GM job, and he's only on his third year, so he's not exactly a finished product. I'm personally convinced that he's gradually figuring out how to manage free agency. The last couple of years Thompson brought in virtually every bargain basement guy he could find (Gardner, Boerighter, Klemm, Roman, etc.) and asked them to fill holes. I think you, I, and Ted Thompson will all admit that wasn't working. But the thing he did last year that he didn't do the previous year was key in on several free agents he was interested in and pursue them with diligence (Pickett was picked up short into the offseason when he had several suitors, Woodson was a drawn out negotiation, and we were in the Arrington sweepstakes up until the bitter end.)

So what I hope he's learned is that you can't really expect mediocre guys to come in from outside the organization and instantly fill holes (hopefully he's learned that from Manuel as well), but the occasional special free agent can come in and instantly improve you at a position.

So maybe Thompson looked out at this year's FA crop and saw a bunch of guys like Allen, Roman, Boerighter, Klemm, Gardner and the lot and thought "I've brought in guys like this and they didn't do anything" so passed on the lot of them. Which was a good idea when it came to a lot of the guys available in free agency. The money we would have spent on those kinds of damaged veterans who will either get cut in camp or limp along on the roster without contributing is better in frontloaded contracts and extensions for our good players.

What I do think TT's mistake this offseason, and something he needs to learn about, was that when there is a player you do think would make a sizeable enough contribution to actually want the guy, he needs to push a little harder to get the guy. The one fullback who ended up in Oakland would have been a good fit here, and Thompson apparently wanted the guy. Now we'll never know why we didn't get him. Maybe it's not Ted's fault and the guy just wanted to live in California and not Wisconsin. Maybe Ted was right and the guy's not as good as his contract anyway. But maybe the guy would have been a major improvement on the roster and we missed out on him because Ted wouldn't bend or push a little more than he did.

So Thompson makes mistakes, this is understandable he's never been a GM before. But since he's new at this, we can't be sure he won't learn from his mistakes and improve on them. He unquestionably did a better job in his second offseason than his first, and maybe this offseason will turn out better than we think (it's not over, after all.) If it doesn't, we can hope that Ted learns from his mistakes and corrects them, whatever they are.

The fact is though that nobody, not us, not the rest of the NFL, not even TT himself has seen enough of Ted Thompson's GM work to really know if he can, or can't build a contender.

[MJZiggy]

Wist, your post made me curious about something: You said that Thompson may be a better college talent evaluator than Wolf. Wolf saw Favre's value and it's said that the reason he went after him is because he saw the college film and knew what Atlanta had rotting on third sting. Wouldn't Thompson have been able to see that as well? I'm not saying he would have pulled the trigger, but I'm just thinking he might have known Favre was good enough to be worth a first round pick...

[Scott Campbell]

.........b/c they (Pickett and Woodson) languished somewhat inexplicably on the open market, with virtually no other active suitors.


I thought Pickett signed in the first week of free agency. That doesn't qualifiy as "languishing" by my definition.

[MJZiggy]

.........b/c they (Pickett and Woodson) languished somewhat inexplicably on the open market, with virtually no other active suitors.


I thought Pickett signed in the first week of free agency. That doesn't qualifiy as "languishing" by my definition.

And the Rams wanted him.

[Bretsky]

I agree Wist and the question makes a ton of sense. I've really given up on this team short term.

I've fully given up, even more then you apparently because it never crosses my mind that Favre will win the SB. I just look at it as we missed the oppertunity and we're starting over.


Ted has broken me; I've given up as well.

I thought if he hit free agency hard last year with a couple more players (like Witherspoon and Hope for those that will question me), he could use last years and this years draft and make two serious runs if Favre stays another two.

I'm at the point where I understand TT did not agree with that and my expectations and hopes have been modified.

[retailguy]

Wist, your post made me curious about something: You said that Thompson may be a better college talent evaluator than Wolf. Wolf saw Favre's value and it's said that the reason he went after him is because he saw the college film and knew what Atlanta had rotting on third sting. Wouldn't Thompson have been able to see that as well? I'm not saying he would have pulled the trigger, but I'm just thinking he might have known Favre was good enough to be worth a first round pick...

he probably would have known and then PASSED because he viewed the price as too high...

[Scott Campbell]

.......................making the biggest FA signing ever (White) - do I need to point out that TT would never, ever, have done that???


I'm not so sure. There hasn't been a free agent of White's stature in a long, long time because of the franchise and transition tags teams now use. I'm not certain Thompson would be so rigidly conservative if the free agent crop had blue chippers like White available.

[RashanGary]

RG, I'll say this; I agree that Sherman had merit in taking his shot. We almost got there.

WE did have a good young core who is now an old, retiring core. I'm just ready to start over. I've given up on plugging one hole, hoping one more doesn't spring.

We obviously have different views and like you said, you can't prove anything to anyone on these issues. They are subjective; pure plain and simple.

You and rand have been the best, most reasonable Sherm supporters here. I saw our team fall apart and I think I had a little chip on my shoulder *that still surfaces from time to time* about Sherman. Looking back, he took a shot and almost got there. We're starting over IMO...Big deal.......

You see it a little differently but it's nice to hear you give TT some credit; I take it a little personally sometimes when he gets knocked because I believe strongly in what he stands for.

[RashanGary]

I'm not so sure. There hasn't been a free agent of White's stature in a long, long time because of the franchise and transition tags teams now use. I'm not certain Thompson would be so rigidly conservative if the free agent crop had blue chippers like White available.

Wasn't TT the director of Pro Player personal at that time? NOt to argue because I think someone would outbid him in todays NFL. They were sort of passive at that time. I think his asking price might be crippling in todays NFL.

[Scott Campbell]

I think his asking price might be crippling in todays NFL.


I find it hard to believe you could ever pay a Reggie White too much. He was that good.

[RashanGary]

Ted has broken me; I've given up as well.

I thought if he hit free agency hard last year with a couple more players (like Witherspoon and Hope for those that will question me), he could use last years and this years draft and make two serious runs if Favre stays another two.

I'm at the point where I understand TT did not agree with that and my expectations and hopes have been modified.

That opening day against Chicago, the 4-12 year, I gave up. That team got so thoroughly dominated in every phase, I knew it wasn't 1 or 2 pieces away. From there, I was able to fully commit to building from the base up. I was pretty confident at that time that we were a dreadfull team and it never went away for me.

[RashanGary]

I doubt Thompson would have gotten him. I think Thompson could build a team like San Diego though.

[Scott Campbell]

I think it's possible that we may be moving into phase 2 of an overall strategy. Maybe ultra conservative Ted from years 1 & 2 doesn't try to trade for Randy Moss. But now that the roster hemorrhaging has slowed, he’s in a better position to make the “bold” move.

It's hard to say. He doesn't tip his hand.

[pbmax]

The Reggie White signing was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Besides Deion, players of that caliber do not make it to free agency. It will be impossible to test the theory that T2 wouldn't sign a Reggie White. Barring a return to the Front Office of Jerry Glanville and Ken Herock.

As for Favre, I think you (wist) have a point. But let me say that if T2 the college talent evaluator had made a few more picks for GM Wolf in round 1 and 2, then Wolf might not have needed to trade a #2 for Jackson, sign Rison or the others.

[Patler]

Wist, your post made me curious about something: You said that Thompson may be a better college talent evaluator than Wolf. Wolf saw Favre's value and it's said that the reason he went after him is because he saw the college film and knew what Atlanta had rotting on third sting. Wouldn't Thompson have been able to see that as well? I'm not saying he would have pulled the trigger, but I'm just thinking he might have known Favre was good enough to be worth a first round pick...

Have you all forgotten the story of how TT got hired by Wolf?

TT retired as a player and went into an investment business or something. He wanted to get into front office work and someone (Reinfeld?) recommended him to Wolf. Wolf brought him in and at his interview, Wolf gave TT three tapes and asked him to evealuate the QB on them. It was TT's first "scouting" effort, and Wolf said he evaluated Favre, the QB on the tape, the same as Wolf had. That was before Wolf made the trade for Favre. Wolf said he knew TT had the ability to see raw talent in players from his evaluation of Favre.

[pbmax]

Patler, I remember the story, but would Thompson have traded a first round pick (a 6-10 record) for the second round QB?

Same scouting report doesn't mean same price in each man's estimation.



Wist, your post made me curious about something: You said that Thompson may be a better college talent evaluator than Wolf. Wolf saw Favre's value and it's said that the reason he went after him is because he saw the college film and knew what Atlanta had rotting on third sting. Wouldn't Thompson have been able to see that as well? I'm not saying he would have pulled the trigger, but I'm just thinking he might have known Favre was good enough to be worth a first round pick...

Have you all forgotten the story of how TT got hired by Wolf?

TT retired as a player and went into an investment business or something. He wanted to get into front office work and someone (Reinfeld?) recommended him to Wolf. Wolf brought him in and at his interview, Wolf gave TT three tapes and asked him to evealuate the QB on them. It was TT's first "scouting" effort, and Wolf said he evaluated Favre, the QB on the tape, the same as Wolf had. That was before Wolf made the trade for Favre. Wolf said he knew TT had the ability to see raw talent in players from his evaluation of Favre.

[Bretsky]

Patler, I remember the story, but would Thompson have traded a first round pick (a 6-10 record) for the second round QB?

Same scouting report doesn't mean same price in each man's estimation.



Wist, your post made me curious about something: You said that Thompson may be a better college talent evaluator than Wolf. Wolf saw Favre's value and it's said that the reason he went after him is because he saw the college film and knew what Atlanta had rotting on third sting. Wouldn't Thompson have been able to see that as well? I'm not saying he would have pulled the trigger, but I'm just thinking he might have known Favre was good enough to be worth a first round pick...

Have you all forgotten the story of how TT got hired by Wolf?

TT retired as a player and went into an investment business or something. He wanted to get into front office work and someone (Reinfeld?) recommended him to Wolf. Wolf brought him in and at his interview, Wolf gave TT three tapes and asked him to evealuate the QB on them. It was TT's first "scouting" effort, and Wolf said he evaluated Favre, the QB on the tape, the same as Wolf had. That was before Wolf made the trade for Favre. Wolf said he knew TT had the ability to see raw talent in players from his evaluation of Favre.

He's have low balled Atlanta with a 3rd, and waited to up his offer until another competitor came in and beat his offer..........and Favre would have been traded to somebody else.. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[HarveyWallbangers]

Actually, knowing how much Atlanta hated Favre, Wolf probably could have had him for a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

[Scott Campbell]

There weren't very many people or teams that had Favre pegged right.

[Patler]

Patler, I remember the story, but would Thompson have traded a first round pick (a 6-10 record) for the second round QB?

Same scouting report doesn't mean same price in each man's estimation.



Wist, your post made me curious about something: You said that Thompson may be a better college talent evaluator than Wolf. Wolf saw Favre's value and it's said that the reason he went after him is because he saw the college film and knew what Atlanta had rotting on third sting. Wouldn't Thompson have been able to see that as well? I'm not saying he would have pulled the trigger, but I'm just thinking he might have known Favre was good enough to be worth a first round pick...

Have you all forgotten the story of how TT got hired by Wolf?

TT retired as a player and went into an investment business or something. He wanted to get into front office work and someone (Reinfeld?) recommended him to Wolf. Wolf brought him in and at his interview, Wolf gave TT three tapes and asked him to evealuate the QB on them. It was TT's first "scouting" effort, and Wolf said he evaluated Favre, the QB on the tape, the same as Wolf had. That was before Wolf made the trade for Favre. Wolf said he knew TT had the ability to see raw talent in players from his evaluation of Favre.

I never said he would have made the trade. I was replying to MJZ's comment/question about Wolf seeing Favre's talent and suggesting that TT would have too. I just emphasized that he DID see it.

However, just because TT does not like paying huge contracts for FAs who have been around 5+ years doesn't mean he wouldn't trade a single draft pick in any round for a second year player he liked and thought was worth it. Now days, you don't see a lot of trades for young players anymore, other than bottom of the roster types. The Favre situation was a little different.

[run pMc]

A few comments/opinions:

(1) It's silly to really grade a draft until about 3 years have passed.
(2) Few rookies/draft picks make an impact their first year, so to expect this year's picks to make a big impact is asking a lot.
(3) the FA landscape has changed since the early Ron Wolf years.

The Reggie White signing was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Besides Deion, players of that caliber do not make it to free agency. It will be impossible to test the theory that T2 wouldn't sign a Reggie White. This quote is dead on. In today's NFL, teams lock up their best players. That wasn't the case back then...remember the spending sprees SF and DAL had that put them into cap hell? FA is crazy now, but in a different way -- "average" players who make it to the market are getting superstar money. I don't blame TT for being careful, but I agree he could be more active on the FA market. I don't expect him to trade all his picks and use up the cap for retreads and risky players. A major reason Wolf quit was because of FA & the salary cap.
(4) This team is not Super Bowl ready. I do think it's headed in the right direction after seeing a decline during the Sherman years.
(5) I don't fault Sherman for taking a shot at the SB, but I don't fault TT for not doing the same -- GB is farther away now than they were 4-5 years ago.
(6) I think the team will improve this year, although their record may not show it. They finished 8-8 because CHI rested players and was looking past them to the playoffs, MIN essentially gave up by starting T-Jack and failing to run the ball, plus GB had DET, ARI, and a Joey Harrington-led Dolphins team on the schedule.
(7) I'm not expecting playoffs, but I think they can push for a spot. Either way, I'm not giving up on the team just because TT drafted some unknowns and couldn't land Moss.

[wist43]

We're way into "woulda, coulda, shoulda" here, but...

I agree that White was a once in a lifetime signing and that a player of his calibur is very unlikely to ever hit the open market again... if you remember, White hit the open market as a result of a lawsuit that he had filed.

Just don't see how TT could bring himself to enter into a bidding war for any player, so I don't see how he could possibly have been successful in getting White to sign with GB.

At the time, White signed a 4 yr, $16 million contract... outrageous $$$ for the time - don't think TT would ever even consider breaking the bank like that. He would simply continue to count his pennies, and look forward to the next draft.

As for Favre, I'm positive TT never have traded a 1st for Favre, and I'm not sure that he would have drafted him either. If you remember, Favre was actually considered a character risk coming out of college.

He had a reputation as a partier, and had the car accident in his background. When he got to Atlanta he did nothing to dispel the doubts that some had about his ability to focus and do what was necessary to become - well, to become Brett Favre.

As for the actual trade that brought Favre to the Packers, Wolfe had originally offered a 2nd I believe, but the Falcons kept dickering around wanting another pick, or future picks, or another player, etc... Wolfe got tired of dickering with them and said, "to hell with it, how about a 1st???"... the rest is history.

Ultimately, I don't think TT has the moxie to make either of those moves.

[HarveyWallbangers]

At the time, White signed a 4 yr, $16 million contract... outrageous $$$ for the time - don't think TT would ever even consider breaking the bank like that. He would simply continue to count his pennies, and look forward to the next draft.

I don't know how you could be sure on this. He has gotten in bidding wars for players, and he reportedly even offered the most money at times (Vinatieri and others), and still lost those players.


As for Favre, I'm positive TT never have traded a 1st for Favre, and I'm not sure that he would have drafted him either. If you remember, Favre was actually considered a character risk coming out of college.

True. To be fair though, is there any other GM who would have taken the chance that Wolf did? Spend a 1st round pick on a 2nd round player who didn't look good and had a reputation as a party animal. It seemed insane at the time--although it ended up cementing Wolf's reputation.

[Cheesehead Craig]

It's hard to judge the Wolf FA era to TT's. Far more teams have much more money than they did then. There's simply more competition for the FA $ that TT has to deal with that Wolfe simply didn't have to.

Do I wish TT would have been more aggresive in FA? Yes, to an extent. Wist made some great points on how Wolf knew how to straddle that line of draft vs FA and TT hasn't yet. But arguably, TT has not had the FA crop to pick from that Wolf did. But the point is still quite valid by Wist.

The way TT is building the Packers reminds me of how the Brewers are being built. They got great draft picks for years, let them grow and get better while the team was taking their lumps. Now, the young kids are playing outstanding and they mixed in a vet here and there (Suppan and Estrada) and that puts them to elite status. The team is then set given the young kids are locked up for several years and rather cheaply. If he can get the same type of success as the Brewers are currently having, I'd be happy with that.

[pbmax]

The coaches thought he was a lost cause. Herock still thought he was a round one talent, but if the coaches aren't going to take him seriously, then he really just rots on the bench.

So the first round pick was a way to let Herock make the best out of a bad situation. He might not have been ready to give up save for that first round pick.


Actually, knowing how much Atlanta hated Favre, Wolf probably could have had him for a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

[mngolf19]

I doubt Thompson would have gotten him. I think Thompson could build a team like San Diego though.

SD was also good because of Marty. Now that he is gone, don't expect nearly as much from them. Marty wasn't good in playoffs, but he could make a team great in regular season.

[woodbuck27]

This will go down as a good draft class. That's going out on a limb for most people, but I'll say it now. I'm optimistic and realistic. I don't like how Ted Thompson has handled FA this offseason. I understand that he probably tried to get a lot more guys than we even know about, but he wasn't successful.

However, I can't think this is a bad draft--since we drafted so many guys that I liked when I did my pre-draft research (Harrell, Jackson, Rouse, Barbre, Clowney). I liked the Crosby pick. I liked the TE in the last round. Not sure about Jones or Wynn. I didn't really research Jones, and I didn't like Wynn much, but maybe he can be a good hybrid RB/FB (like Da Poop). Don't like the Bishop pick because I'm not sure he has the speed to succeed in our scheme. I think Johnson and Simpson have a good shot at making the team over him--provided they stay clean. Not sure about the Hall pick, but we could use some help on ST. Plus, he provides some roster flexibility with FB and LB background.

Overall, I think this class will fall somewhere between 2005 (hard to say; looks average, but Rodgers could change that and losing Murphy really hurt) and 2006 (looks very promising). Grades are silly, I know, but looking back in 5 years, I'm going to predict this will look like a solid B+ draft class.


Actually I've heard it from a shitload of analysts on the Internet :lol:

Then again many of them don't like it as well.

I'm taking a new approach. Knowing we have little chance of contending in the near future, my expectations are low. It feels much better.


Cheers,
B

So maybe you could join my club?

The Realistic Realist's Club.

Before a team can be consistent and competitive it needs certain basics:

A franchise QB. We are about to lose our's and fr. all I've seen fr. Rodgers to date. How can I be excited about Aaron Rodgers? He's not that.

The team has to be able to put points up on the board with solid weapons and attack. The only talented weapons we currently have on 'O' are Favre and Driver and they don't fit into TT's agenda or plan. They are like two good tires that will soon wear out and will have to be replaced via the TT way. Via systematic coaching or TT's developmentle plan.

I prefer talent be the basis of recruiting a team by using all options. TT's way is drafting heavy ( I don't see value in numbers or trading down for 6th and seven Rd. picks).

He errors by not bringing in players all the time to upgrade the team ( see Bill Belichick).

He errors by undermining the value in recruiting FA's.

Is TT a drafting genious? The jury is still out on that.

Can TT handle a CAP? Yes he has proven that. He's certainly careful with the money. Is he too conservative with the money?

TT has demonstrated that he recognizes players value to the team by extending contracts and retaining valuable FA's. ie Al Harris,Cullen Jenkins and Nick Barnett and in the nick of time he saved Aaron Kampman fr. being a Viking.

Overall to date I see a man that isn't going to be deemed a great GM. ie win a Super Bowl. He's quite frankly lacking in the personality Dept. The word is out on his plodding cheap ways .The NFL see's how he's betrayed the Packer team to date and that has to make anyone uncomfortable with talent to sell to ever come to Green Bay.

TT always says.

'' Geee, I don't know why this or that player came in to Green Bay and departed and signed elsewhere. ''

I maintain that he's not aggressive enough. Personality challenged in that regard. He's a procrastinator or simply way too cautious with CAP money. He doesn't demonstrate an ability to judge talent need for our offense.

Is Ted Thompson hardnosed or incapable of learning and changing? That is the key question every Packer fan has to ask themselves in respect to us enjoying a really competitive team again.

There are so many here that give him the benefit of the doubt. THE ''well. . lets wait and see approach.'' There are alot of ways to evaluate TT's ability to succeed as our GM than waitng for his draft class's to mature. The verdict on his 2005 draft? Will that be in this season?

Ohhhh. We have to wait on Aaron Rodgers. You had better wait on Marviel Underwood. That time is better invested.

How much DAM time do YOU have? I write that in all reaspect. :)

GO PACKERS !!

[Rastak]

So maybe you could join my club?

The Realistic Realist's Club.


LOL.......

[Fritz]

I'd like to start by saying that this has been the most enjoyable thread I've read in a long time. I especially appreciate the comments by Wist, RetailGuy, Bretsky and other not-big-TT-supporters here because I don't agree with them but respect the thought and logic behind their posts. I just get a little irked and annoyed by (other) posters who claim occasionally that Thompson is deliberately sabotaging Favre and thus the team by not drafting/trading for offensive players; th at somehow TT will not be happy until Favre retires so it can be Ted's team. So, as I said, it is enjoyable to read rational, thoughtful posts that critique the job TT is doing and not his motives.

I also think other people here have done a nice job refuting some of Wist's points comparing TT to Wolf - i.e., as Wolf himself has said that kind of trading, wheeling-dealing that he did vis a vis Reggie White and others is well-nigh imposible in today's NFL, what with the sal cap. Harvey (I believe) and others also pointed out that TT has gone aggressively after free agents and has in some instances offered more than what those FA's eventualy signed for (Vinateri, Arrington), but those players chose to go elsewhere. In Justin Griffiths' case this year, another thread suggests that one of his coaches from Atlanta went to the team Griffiths (eventually) signed with, and Griffiths signed with that team (Oakland?) because of that coach.

As for the "woulda TT have had the cojones to trade for Favre?" well, we'll never know. But it is possible he would have offered less, and who knows - maybe the dude woulda brought Favre here for less than what Wolf offered. I think TT is more patient than most GM's, which pays off in the late draft rounds (when, it seems to me, other GM's seem to hurry their picks or be willing to trade them away because, I don't know, they don't value those picks), and this might have paid off with Favre. But we never will know.

Ultimately I disagree with Wist and RetailGuy - I believe in the way TT is going about his job, both short and long term. I don't agree with everything he's done, though - I thought he erred terribly with Javon Walker. I think, right after Walker got hurt in the Detroit game, TT should have gone to him and said "Javon, we believe in you. We know you work you azz off, and we believe you will come back better than ever. And to show you that we believe in you, we'd like to re-do your deal...." and so on. On the other hand, those who think he coulda re-signed Wahle and/or Rivera are trying to revise history. All the articles in the JSO and Press Gazette mentioned at that time that Wahle was flat out going to be too rich for the Packers' sal cap, given the way Shermy had managed it.

Anyway. My main point here is that it is refreshing to read this thread. Posters from opposite sides are making excellent points, being rational, being thoughtful.

Thanks to all who have been posting on this thread.

[woodbuck27]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2007/draft/teams/packers.html

Round Pick (Overall) Player Position School

1 16 (16) Justin Harrell DT Tennessee

Justin Harrell SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 1(16)

SI Grade = 3.93

Position:DT Class:Sr School: Tennessee Conference: Southeastern Ht., Wt.: 6.4.5, 305 40 Time:5.10

BIOGRAPHY: Three-year starter who totaled seven tackles in three games last season, after being sidelined with a torn bicep. Awarded All-Conference honors as a junior after totaling 39/7.5/2.5.

POSITIVES: Tough, athletic defender who plays with top effort. Gets off the snap with a quick first step, is fluid changing direction and slides off blocks to make the play. Bends his knees, gets leverage on opponents and is rarely off his feet.

NEGATIVES: Gets wired in blocks and is slow to shed. Makes most of his plays up the open field in a small area.

ANALYSIS: A hard-working lineman with a lot of physical skill, Harrell could be one of the most underrated players in this draft. His injury last season will decrease his final grade, yet he offers starting possibilities as either a two-gap lineman or as a conventional tackle.

PROJECTION: Early Second Round

Comment woodbuck27:

Generally this pick was considered a reach. This was TT's BPA at pick 16 ignoring our need on offense. Note that TT may go need in his second round pick.



2 31 (63) Brandon Jackson RB Nebraska

Brandon Jackson SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 2(31)

SI Grade = 3.61

Position:RB Class: Jr School:Nebraska Conference:Big Twelve
Ht., Wt.: 5-10, 210 40 Time:4.53

BIOGRAPHY: All-Conference selection last season after starting nine games and totaling 188/989/8 rushing with 33/313/2 receiving.

POSITIVES: Talented ball-handler who produces in a variety of ways. Displays solid running vision, follows blocks and finds the cutback lanes. Displays a burst of speed, possesses the ability to make defenders miss and runs with an aggressive style.

NEGATIVES: Must improve his ball security. Not a big back who picks up yardage after initial contact.

ANALYSIS: Jackson moves on to the next level after just a single productive season. He does not possess the size to be a feature runner, but his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield as well as his running style makes him well-suited to be a third-down back.

PROJECTION: Late Third Round

Comment woodbuck27:

I didn't like it that TT traded down fr. pick No. 47 to this slot. There was alot of offensive talent available to him at No. 47. Trading down 16 slots for an additional 6th Rd. pick? Why ?


3 14 (78) James Jones WR San Jose State

James Jones SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 3(14)

SI Grade = 3.38

Position:WR Class:Sr School:San Jose State Conference:Western Athletic Ht., Wt.: 6-1, 208 40 Time:4.54

BIOGRAPHY: Three-year starter awarded All-Conference honors as a senior after topping the team with receiving numbers of 70/893/10 as well as averaging 11 yards on 11 punt returns. Totaled 30 receptions as a junior.

POSITIVES: Nice-sized wideout coming off a tremendous senior campaign. Quick in all aspects of his game, displaying a lot of natural skill. Uses his frame to shield away defenders, adjusts to the errant throw and looks the ball into his hands. Displays strong hands.

NEGATIVES: Marginal playing speed and is not a deep threat. Just average production until his senior campaign.

ANALYSIS: A big, strong, receiver, Jones turned himself into an NFL prospect last season. Gives effort in all aspects of the game and could develop into a productive third wideout.

PROJECTION: Middle Sixth Round


3 25 (89) Aaron Rouse S Virginia Tech

Aaron Rouse SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 3(25)

SI Grade = 3.71

Position:S Class:Sr School:Virginia Tech Conference:Atlantic Coast
Ht., Wt.: 6-4, 223 40 Time:4.59

BIOGRAPHY: Two-year starter who posted 57/1/2 as a senior after career-best numbers of 77/4/5 the prior season.

POSITIVES: Athletic strong-safety prospect with terrific size/speed numbers. Fierce defending the run, has a burst of closing speed and aggressively takes on ball carriers. Shows range in centerfield, plays with good explosion and a large degree of suddenness.

NEGATIVES: Played poorly as a senior. Did not show a decisive move to the throw, was late arriving on the scene in coverage and generally got caught out of position. Inefficient, and does not take the best angles to the action.

ANALYSIS: After a breakout junior campaign, much was expected from Rouse last season. Played well at the Senior Bowl, and offers the tools to be used as a strong safety in the NFL, yet must quickly get his game back on track.

PROJECTION: Early Third Round

Comment woodbuck27:

This could end up being an excellent value pick. He's a tweener and can possibly contribute at SS or LBer.


4 20 (119) Allen Barbre G Missouri Southern State

Allen Barbre SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 4(20)

SI Grade = 3.86

Position:G Class:Sr School:Missouri Southern State Conference:Division II Ht., Wt.: 6-4, 300 40 Time:4.89

BIOGRAPHY: Moved into the starting lineup midway through his freshman season. Awarded All-Conference honors after his junior and senior campaigns and was an All-American last year.

POSITIVES: Athletic pass-protecting blocker with a good amount of upside. Patient, effectively uses angles and slides his feet laterally. Strong at the point, seals defenders from the action and plays with leverage. Flashes power as a run blocker.

NEGATIVES: Late with his hands. Not fluid and struggles to adjust.

ANALYSIS: A productive small-school blocker with the tools to play at the next level, Barbre is a developmental prospect who could start at either a guard or tackle in two seasons.

PROJECTION: Late Second Round

Comment woodbuck27:

Is this a good value pick. What was his Wonderlik score? Does that even matter?


5 20 (157) David Clowney WR Virginia Tech

David Clowney SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 5(20)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:WR Class:Sr School:Virginia Tech Conference:Atlantic Coast
Ht., Wt.: 6-0.5, 188 40 Time:4.36

BIOGRAPHY: Two-year starter who is also a sprinter on the school's track team. Senior totals were 34/424 after 34/619/3 the prior year.

POSITIVES: Developing receiver with terrific playing speed. Displays sharpness running routes, gets separation from opponents, offering the quarterback a nice target. Nicely adjusts to the errant throw and makes the reception in stride.

NEGATIVES: Undersized and struggles against larger defenders. Gives effort blocking, but is not effective. Marginally productive the past two seasons because of the rotational system Virginia Tech uses at wideout.

ANALYSIS: Athletically gifted, Clowney offers potential as a third receiver at the next level if he improves his consistency.

PROJECTION: Middle Third Round

Comment woodbuck27: Could turn out as a solid value pick and he's a burner. Wondering if he has punt return skills?


6 17 (191) Korey Hall OLB Boise State

Korey Hall SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 6(17)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:OLB Class:Sr School:Boise State Conference:Western Athletic
Ht., Wt.: 6-0.5, 230 40 Time:4.85

BIOGRAPHY: Four-year starter awarded varying degrees of All-Conference honors since his freshman season. WAC Defensive Player of the Year as a senior after totaling 105/6.5/3.5 and adding six interceptions. Junior totals included a career-high 106 tackles.

POSITIVES: Omnipresent college linebacker with marginal size/speed. Remains disciplined with assignments and shows top instincts. Aggressive, plays faster than his 40 time and is constantly around the action, making positive plays. Gets depth on drops.

NEGATIVES: Undersized and easily blocked at the point of attack. Does not show much suddenness to his game.

ANALYSIS: An overachiever who gets the most from his abilities, Hall's attitude, toughness and football intelligence will help him find a spot at the next level.

PROJECTION: Undrafted Free Agent

Comment woodbuck27:

Why didn't TT go TE with one of these three 6th Rd. picks?


6 18 (192) Desmond Bishop ILB California

Desmond Bishop SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 6(18)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:ILB Class:Sr School:California Conference:Pacific-10
Ht., Wt.: 6-2, 240 40 Time:4.81

BIOGRAPHY: Junior college transfer who started the past two seasons, winning All-Conference honors after each campaign. Led the team in tackles as a senior, posting career numbers of 126/15/3, while also intercepting three passes and breaking up two more.

POSITIVES: Intense, competitive, run-defending linebacker who works best in the box. Hard-hitting, puts his shoulders into ball carriers and likes to intimidate opponents. Patient, stays with assignments and takes excellent angles to the action.

NEGATIVES: Does not always play under control or within himself. Marginal lateral range, slow to the flanks and struggles in coverage.

ANALYSIS: A two-down defender with a nose for the football, Bishop is an underrated linebacker who will be downgraded because of his limitations in coverage. Has the intelligence and attitude to produce as a rookie on special teams, and could eventually develop.

PROJECTION: Early Seventh Round

Comment woodbuck27:

There was a pretty good player at TE available to TT here. Wondering why he would pass on this TE?


6 19 (193) Mason Crosby PK Colorado

Mason Crosby SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 6(19)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:PK Class:Sr School:Colorado Conference:Big Twelve
Ht., Wt.: 6-1, 213 40 Time:5.28

BIOGRAPHY: Moved into the starting lineup as a freshman and has been awarded All-Conference honors since his sophomore campaign, while being named an All-American the past two years. Connected on 67.9% of his field goals last season, with a long of 56 yards.

POSITIVES: Big-legged kicker who is the best prospect at his position in almost a half-dozen years. Gets tremendous lift on field goals, consistently hits them from long yardage and handles pressure well. Comes through in clutch situations.

NEGATIVES: Does not consistently follow through on the longer field goals, which hampers the trajectory of his kicks. Struggled with his kickoffs during Senior Bowl practices in adverse conditions.

ANALYSIS: A productive and consistent kicker in college, Crosby is a legitimate first-day pick who can impact a team during his rookie campaign.

PROJECTION: Late Third Round

Comment woodbuck27:

This pick is considered excellent value here. He could be our PKer for some time?


7 18 (228) DeShawn Wynn RB Florida

DeShawn Wynn SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 7(18)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:RB Class:Sr School:Florida Conference:Southeastern
Ht., Wt.: 5-10.5, 232 40 Time:4.47

BIOGRAPHY: Part-time starter the past two seasons, leading Florida in rushing as a senior with 143/699/6. Junior totals were 130/620/7. Averaged more than 4.8 yards per carry the past two seasons.

POSITIVES: Strong runner who flashes the ability to take over games. Powerful, picks up a lot of yardage off initial contact and falls forward when tackled. Shows the ability to cut back in a small area and keep runs alive.

NEGATIVES: Not known as a great practice player or hard worker. Not elusive, and does not create yardage. Displays a lot of hesitation to his game. Does not play to his 40 time.

ANALYSIS: Possessing the athleticism and skill to be a feature runner at the next level, Wynn is an underachiever of sorts who never took his game to the next level. Teases scouts with his ability and must start to consistently play at a high level.

PROJECTION: Middle Fifth Round

Comment woodbuck27:

Intriguing pick ! Very quick guy !!


7* 33 (243) Clark Harris TE Rutgers

Clark Harris SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 7(33)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:TE Class:Sr School:Rutgers Conference:Big East
Ht., Wt.: 6-5, 254 40 Time:4.85

BIOGRAPHY: Three-year starter awarded All-Conference honors since his sophomore campaign. Senior receiving totals were 38/294 after 38/584/4 as a junior. Career-best numbers of 53/725/5 came as a sophomore.

POSITIVES: Consistent receiver who projects as a number-two tight end. Fluid releasing off the line, reads defenses and sneaks it downfield. Finds the open seam, consistently makes himself an available target and displays good eye/hand coordination.

NEGATIVES: Not aggressive with blocking assignments and gets marginal results. Does not have the speed to be a true deep threat.

ANALYSIS: Harris lacks the size/speed to be anything other than a backup. His production as a long snapper last year could help him secure a spot on a roster.

PROJECTION: Middle Fifth Round

Comment woodbuck27:

TT may have served the team better if he had gone TE in the 6th Rd. and gotten us a prospect on the OL here.

GO PACKERS !!

[woodbuck27]

This will go down as a good draft class. That's going out on a limb for most people, but I'll say it now. I'm optimistic and realistic. I don't like how Ted Thompson has handled FA this offseason. I understand that he probably tried to get a lot more guys than we even know about, but he wasn't successful.

However, I can't think this is a bad draft--since we drafted so many guys that I liked when I did my pre-draft research (Harrell, Jackson, Rouse, Barbre, Clowney). I liked the Crosby pick. I liked the TE in the last round. Not sure about Jones or Wynn. I didn't really research Jones, and I didn't like Wynn much, but maybe he can be a good hybrid RB/FB (like Da Poop). Don't like the Bishop pick because I'm not sure he has the speed to succeed in our scheme. I think Johnson and Simpson have a good shot at making the team over him--provided they stay clean. Not sure about the Hall pick, but we could use some help on ST. Plus, he provides some roster flexibility with FB and LB background.

Overall, I think this class will fall somewhere between 2005 (hard to say; looks average, but Rodgers could change that and losing Murphy really hurt) and 2006 (looks very promising). Grades are silly, I know, but looking back in 5 years, I'm going to predict this will look like a solid B+ draft class.

Harvey with all respect.

Guessing that you didn't read TOP HAT's thread???

In any case. READ it again. . . carefully. :)

[HarveyWallbangers]

Did the "experts" not like our draft class? Boo hoo!

[the_idle_threat]

Did the "experts" not like our draft class? Boo hoo!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[woodbuck27]

Did the "experts" not like our draft class? Boo hoo!

Screw the experts.

I'm a dedicated and informed Packer and NFL fan.

TT neglected our 'O' by not getting two quality talents at the top of the draft. After that he did only fair.

:D

[Fritz]

Did the "experts" not like our draft class? Boo hoo!

Screw the experts.

I'm a dedicated and informed Packer and NFL fan.

TT neglected our 'O' by not getting two quality talents at the top of the draft. After that he did only fair.

:D

Woodbuck, we shall see - in three years. Until then we can only postulate.