Is it Favre?

[PackerBlues]

I was thinking about Mike Sherman again, (Sorry, lol). It always struck me as a little strange that the best job offer Sherman could get, was the job he has now with the Texans. He had a winning record during his entire tenure in GB, up until Ted Thompson took over as GM and "re-did" the O-line.

Do you think that people around the NFL got it into their heads that if it wasnt for Brett Favre, Sherman would not have had the great winning record he had in GB?

Taking it a step further, when Thompson made the changes he made on the O-line during his first year in GB, many people thought that the new guys on our O-line played really well. I on the other hand saw Favre scrambling for his life very consistantly.

Again, has the new O-line been all that good, or did Favre's scrambling and getting rid of the ball make them look better. (more interceptions, but less sacks than he would have taken by not scrambling and getting rid of the ball)


Whenever I think about one single player making everyone around him look better, the first person I think of is Barry Sanders. Barry Sanders changed games all by himself. "Back in the day" , when the Packers played the Lions, no matter how bad their team was.......you never marked it down as an easy win for the Packers, simply because they had Barry Sanders.
I see Favre as that same kind of "game changing" player. Do you think that the rest of the NFL had such respect for Favre that they just figured that anyone could have been coaching the Packers with Favre at QB and gotten the number of wins that Sherman racked up during his tenure in GB?

Or, was it simply the "4th and 26" that put Sherman where he is now instead of working as a Head Coach or a GM somewhere else?

[Packnut]

I just think everyone saw the Philly game and realized it was the worst coaching job of all time in a play-off game.......

[ahaha]

Never making it past the divisional round of the playoffs didn't help. And, two embarrasing playoff losses at Lambeau were a stain on his record. He was a good regular season coach who couldn't get it done in the postseason. Some teams might not want to hire a guy that seems to fit the 'Marty Shottenhiemer' mold.

[packinpatland]

I vaguely remember a game where the Packers held the Lions' Barry Sanders to next to nothing yards.
When was that??

[ahaha]

I vaguely remember a game where the Packers held the Lions' Barry Sanders to next to nothing yards.
When was that??

Wild card game after the '94 season.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I think that teams saw that Sherman was not the best adjustment guy around during games. That hurt his stock more than anything. Plus, when he was demoted in his final season here, that was a huge red flag to teams given how his own team perceived him and his abilities.

He may get another HC job somewhere down the line, but he'll have to have some success in Houston with that OL first.

[woodbuck27]

What do we know?

We know that the loss to Minny in the playoffs 2004 season may have been eventful in that the Vikings took it to us early and we never recovered.

We all should recall Favre's bonehead flip into the end zone to who? Bubba Franks. . . after he crossed the line of scrimmage ( may have pissed off those who call the shots in Green Bay ). Especially given the smirk on Brett's face following that play.

I was watching that game with a very close friend who was pissed that Favre didn't run the ball in those few yards. He took a long time to get set with Brett Favre again after that game. Hindsight is 20-20, but Favre should have scored on that play by running it in. He shouls have at least tried to run it in as he was so close to the goal line.

Maybe (just maybe) Bob Harlan decided at that moment, that given the support that Mike Sherman gave to Favre as GM that he had to make a change.

Bob Harlan's official stance in the press was. That he felt that it was in the best interests of Sherman and the team that Mike concentrate on just being our HC to take the pressure off Mike Sherman in the dual role.

Enter Ted Thompson and without his man at HC. That was remedied in the firing of Mike Sherman after the 2005 season and subsequent hiring of Mike McCarthy and his choice of coaching staff.

That is my take on this matter. :)

I invite comments on this post.

[MJZiggy]

I thought the offcial stance was that it had something to do with the McKenzie debacle and that M2 couldn't concentrate on his coaching because of it.

[woodbuck27]

I thought the offcial stance was that it had something to do with the McKenzie debacle and that M2 couldn't concentrate on his coaching because of it.

Bob Harlan said that he felt that Mike Sherman was over burdened as our GM and HC ( in a manner of words ); and felt that Mike Sherman could best serve himself and the Packers concentrating on the duties as just our HC, where his record spoke for itself.

[PackerBlues]

We all should recall Favre's bonehead flip into the end zone to who? Bubba Franks. . . after he crossed the line of scrimmage ( may have pissed off those who call the shots in Green Bay ). Especially given the smirk on Brett's face following that play.


I invite comments on this post.

owwwwww!!!!! yep, I remember that play. Hurt like hell having to watch it, because yes, it looked like he could have ran it in easy......yet he went for .....what? a TD pass rather than what looked like a sure thing?

That hurt.

[mraynrand]

Never making it past the divisional round of the playoffs didn't help. And, two embarrasing playoff losses at Lambeau were a stain on his record. He was a good regular season coach who couldn't get it done in the postseason. Some teams might not want to hire a guy that seems to fit the 'Marty Shottenhiemer' mold.

People don't remember that you lost 9 starters to injury. They only seem to remember that you lost at home.

And yes, Favre dramatically affected Sherman's appeal. Certainly the thinking is that if you have a guy like Favre, you ought to be able to win it all. People don't care about the effects of ten straight years of winning, then don't care that Sherman got Favre in his 10th season and that he suffered through tendinitis (2000), knee ligament damage (2002), and a broken thumb (2003). Only that Sherman couldn't get it done. And to a certain extent that's reasonable. But I rarely see people compare Favre's seasons 10-current with Marino's seasons at the same stage in his career. Part of having a great QB like Marino and Favre is that they can win you 3-4 games a year all by themselves - and that keeps you perpetually at the middle to bottom of the draft. These things affect team's abilities to aquire the players that can compliment a guy like Favre.

So, Sherman gets punked in a way because of Favre, but he did enough on his own to poison his chances for another job for a while (the reaction to the Philly loss was a disaster both as coach and GM). When you scapegoat a beloved NFL guy like Donatell, you should expect some blowback.

[mraynrand]

What do we know?

We know that the loss to Minny in the playoffs 2004 season may have been eventful in that the Vikings took it to us early and we never recovered.


That's factually incorrect. Despite being down 17-0 or 17-3, the Packers crawled back to 24-17, before the Moss TD.

The bottom line is that the 2004 Packers weren't that good. MN was a better team - MN played much better against the Eagles in the reg season than did the Packers (recall the absolute blow out).

Teams that go for broke (like the Packers in 2002) and finish with 8-8 or better records for 12 years eventually decline (see SF, Dallas, TN). When you suck for a year or two, you get a chance at guys like Vince Young, LT, Bush, etc.

[packinpatland]

We all should recall Favre's bonehead flip into the end zone to who? Bubba Franks. . . after he crossed the line of scrimmage ( may have pissed off those who call the shots in Green Bay ). Especially given the smirk on Brett's face following that play.


I invite comments on this post.

owwwwww!!!!! yep, I remember that play. Hurt like hell having to watch it, because yes, it looked like he could have ran it in easy......yet he went for .....what? a TD pass rather than what looked like a sure thing?

That hurt.

I remember the play, I'm not sure of the 'smirk'.

[BallHawk]

I just think everyone saw the Philly game and realized it was the worst coaching job of all time in a play-off game.......

It wasn't only 4th and 26th that was the boneheaded play, but not going for it on 4th and inches when your RB racked up 1800 yards that season.

[woodbuck27]

What do we know?

We know that the loss to Minny in the playoffs 2004 season may have been eventful in that the Vikings took it to us early and we never recovered.


That's factually incorrect. Despite being down 17-0 or 17-3, the Packers crawled back to 24-17, before the Moss TD.

The bottom line is that the 2004 Packers weren't that good. MN was a better team - MN played much better against the Eagles in the reg season than did the Packers (recall the absolute blow out).

Teams that go for broke (like the Packers in 2002) and finish with 8-8 or better records for 12 years eventually decline (see SF, Dallas, TN). When you suck for a year or two, you get a chance at guys like Vince Young, LT, Bush, etc.

Checking that out:

Sun., Jan. 9 Minnesota Vikings 3:30 p.m. L, 17-31

Quarter...1st.... 2nd.... 3rd.... 4th....... Final

Vikings... 17..... 7....... 0........ 7........... 31
Packers.... 3..... 7....... 0........ 7........... 17

Game's summary should be read from the bottom:

End of game.

Final Score Vikings 31 - Packers 17

The Vikings answered the Packers' score as Daunte Culpepper hit Randy Moss for a 34-yard touchdown (10:18, 4th quarter).

Culpepper completed 5-of-6 passes for 56 yards.

Nate Burleson had 3 catches for 16 yards.

The Vikings' scoring drive was 6 plays for 66 yards. Time of the drive was 3:19.

**

Score Vikings 24 - Packers 17

The Packers pulled to within 7 points of the Vikings as Najeh Davenport punched it in from 1 yard away (13:37, 4th quarter).

Brett Favre completed 5-of-5 passes for 54 yard on the drive.

Ahman Green rushed for 13 yards on 2 carries, including an 8-yard carry to the 1 yard line to set up the touchdown.

Donald Driver had 3 catches for 34 yards, while Green also had 1 catch for 14 yards.

The Packers' scoring drive was 9 plays for 78 yards. Time of the drive was 4:16.

**

End of 3rd quarter. Score Vikings 24 - Packers 10

**

Javon Walker has been taken to the locker room. He is out for the remainder of the game.

**

On 3rd-and-14, R-Kal Truluck broke through the line to sack Daunte Culpepper for a 4-yard loss, forcing another Vikings punt. The Packers take over at their own 22 yard line.

**

In injury news, Chad Clifton had his ankle re-taped and his return is questionable. Javon Walker is still having trouble running and his return is doubtful.

**

After the defense forced another Vikings punt, Brett Favre's pass intended for Antonio Chatman was again intercepted -- his 4th of the game -- this time by Brian Williams at the Vikings' 40 yard line (5:43, 3rd quarter).

**

The Vikings were unable to convert on the turnover as the Packers forced a punt. Green Bay will take over at their own 7 yard line.

**

Brett Favre suffered his third interception of the game after his pass bounced off Andrae Thurman and into the arms of Ralph Brown, who returned it 27 yards to the Packers' 23 yard line (11:45, 3rd quarter).

**

End of 1st half. Score Vikings 24 - Packers 10]

**

The Packers failed to add points before entering the locker room at halftime as Ryan Longwell missed a 28-yard field goal (0:16, 2nd quarter).

**

Score Vikings 24 - Packers 10

The Vikings scored two plays later as Daunte Culpepper hit Nate Burleson for a 19-yard touchdown (6:33, 2nd quarter).

Michael Bennett also had 1 carry for 9 yards.

The Vikings' scoring drive was 2 plays for 28 yards. Time of the drive was 0:41.

**

On the first play of the ensuing drive, Brett Favre's pass was intercepted by Brian Russell and returned 14 yards to the Packers' 28 yard line(7:14, 2nd quarter).

**

Javon Walker has returned to the game.

**

On 4th-and-goal from the 7 yard line, Morten Andersen slipped as he attempted a field goal. The kick was blocked and then recovered by Al Harris. The Packers take over at their own 12 yard line.

**

Najeh Davenport has been taken to the locker room for x-rays on his shoulder. His return is questionable.

**

Javon Walker suffered a left shin contusion. His return is questionable.

**

Score Vikings 17 - Packers 10

Brett Favre hit Bubba Franks in the end zone for a 4-yard touchdown as the Packers pulled to within 7 points of the Vikings early in the 2nd quarter (10:24, 2nd quarter).

Favre completed 4-of-4 passes for 35 yards on the drive, including a 17 yard pass to William Henderson.

Donald Driver had 1 catch for 8 yards while Javon Walker had 1 catch for 6 yards.

The Packers' scoring drive was 10 plays for 57 yards. Time of the drive was 5:14.

**

End of 1st quarter.

**

On the ensuing drive, the Vikings were forced to punt as Michael Hawthorne slipped through the line on 3rd-and-6 to sack Daunte Culpepper for an 8-yard loss.

The Packers take over at their own 43 yard line.

**

Score Vikings 17 - Packers 3

The Packers found their first points of the game as Ryan Longwell connected on a 43-yard field goal (2:42, 1st quarter).

Brett Favre completed 2-of-4 passes for 28 yards on the drive, including a 21-yard pass to Javon Walker to the Vikings' 30 yard line.

Ahman Green had 2 carries for 4 yards and Najeh Davenport had 1 carry for 5 yards.

The Packers' scoring drive was 8 plays for 37 yards. Time of the drive was 3:24.

**

Score Vikings 17 - Packers 0

The Vikings added 3 points to their lead as Morten Andersen was good on a 35-yard field goal (6:06, 1st quarter).

Daunte Culpepper completed 2-of-3 passes for 19 yards on the drive. He also had 1 rush for 23 yards.

Jermaine Wiggins had 1 catch for 10 yards, while Michael Bennett had 1 catch for 9 yards.

The Vikings' scoring drive was 6 plays for 40 yards. Time of the drive was 2:30.

**

Brett Favre was intercepted on the ensuing drive by Antoine Winfield. The Vikings take over at their own 43 yard line.

**

Score Vikings 14 - Packers 0

The Vikings wasted little time finding the end zone again as Daunte Culpepper connected with Randy Moss for the Vikings' 2nd touchdown of the game (9:50, 1st quarter).

Culpepper was 3-of-3 on the drive for 42 yards, including the 20-yard pass to Moss and a 22-yard pass to Jermaine Wiggins.

Michael Bennet also had 1 carry for 13 yards.

The Vikings' scoring drive was 4 plays for 55 yards. Time of the drive was 1:55.

**

The Packers were unable to get anything going on their first possession of the game. After two plays that gained only 4 yards, Brett Favre was sacked by Chris Claiborne on 3rd-and-6 forcing the Packers to punt.

**

Score Vikings 7 - Packers 0

The Vikings scored on the opening drive of the game as Daunte Culpepper hit Moe Williams for a 68-yard touchdown (13:20, 1st quarter).

Culpepper completed 2-of-2 passes for 75 yards on the drive. Randy Moss had one catch for 7 yards.

The Vikings' scoring drive was 3 plays for 76 yards. Time of the drive was 1:40.

**

Temperature at kickoff is 26 degrees. Wind chill is 21 degrees.

**

The Vikings have won the coin toss

Game Summary:


January 9, 2005

AP Story: Vikings Top Packers 31-17

posted 01/09/2005

The Minnesota Vikings got the last laugh on the Green Bay Packers, and Randy Moss stuck around for every sweet second of this one.

Moss caught two touchdown passes, making good on his promise to atone for walking off the field last week while his teammates were trying to win their regular season finale, and the Vikings rolled to a 31-17 upset victory over the stunned Packers on Sunday.

The Vikings, joining St. Louis as the only 8-8 teams ever to win in the playoffs, will travel to Philadelphia after dominating the first postseason meeting with their bitter border rivals.

Green Bay had swept the season series , including a last-second win at the Metrodome two weeks ago to clinch the NFC North crown and the home field for Sunday's showdown at Lambeau Field, where the Packers have lost two playoff games in the last three years.

Daunte Culpepper threw four touchdown passes -- giving him 11 TD passes and no interceptions against Green Bay this season -- and the Vikings picked off four Brett Favre passes after managing just 11 interceptions all season.

The Vikings stumbled into the playoffs by losing seven of their last 10, the worst record over the final 10 regular season games of any team in the 72-year history of the NFL playoffs.

And their dysfunction reached new depths last week with Moss's early exit and coach Mike Tice dubbing himself "Coach Collapse."

"Pretty much everybody said we couldn't do it and we just pulled together," Culpepper said. "We never bought into the negativity."

Favre said he'll spend some time now thinking about his future, but he wasn't going to let this game play a role in his decision to retire or return for a 15th season.

"It would be easy to walk off the field after that game, and say, 'I've had enough,"' Favre said.

"But I'm going to try to be as far to myself and my team as possible. I've had a lot of great games. This obviously was not one of them."

Minnesota scored on its first three possessions, jumping out to a 17-0 lead in avenging two 34-31 losses to the Packers, who entered the playoffs as the NFC's hottest team.

The Packers lost Pro Bowl receiver Javon Walker to a shin injury in the first half and left tackle Chad Clifton in the third quarter, but pulled to 24-17 on Najeh Davenport's 1-yard plunge with 13:37 left.

Then penalty-prone rookie cornerback Ahmad Carroll committed two costly infractions that set up Culpepper's 34-yard touchdown toss to Moss, giving the Vikings a 14-point cushion with 10:18 remaining.

Cornerback Al Harris jumped the slant-and-go route and Moss, running on a gimpy ankle, hauled in the pass for the score. Harris said somebody blew the all-out blitz on the play but he wouldn't name names.

Meanwhile Moss -- whose reputation is still smarting for skulking off the field with 2 seconds left in a loss in Washington last week -- pretended to pull down his pants and moon the crowd after scoring.

"Just having a little fun with the boys a little bit," he said. "I hope I don't get in trouble by it, but if I do I'll take the heat."

The Packers were feeling good after winning nine of their last 11 and drawing the Vikings, who had lost 20 of their last 22 games outside of domes.

You never would have guessed.

On the first series, linebacker Nick Barnett came up to stop Culpepper on third-and-short and left Moe Williams alone. Culpepper lofted the ball over Barnett and when safety Darren Sharper missed the tackle, Williams scampered 68 yards for a touchdown just 1:40 into the game.

After the Packers went three-and-out, the Vikings needed just four plays to make it 14-0 on Moss's 20-yard touchdown catch with Harris in coverage.

"I expect a big game from Randy every single time we go out," teammate Nate Burleson said.

"It's hard for him, because everybody gives him a lot of flak about certain things that he does, but really when it comes down to it that's a guy that I know I would rather have than any other receiver in this league."

Cornerback Antoine Winfield's interception on the next possession set up Morten Andersen's 35-yard field goal made it 17-0.

The Packers pulled to 17-10 on Ryan Longwell's 43-yard field goal and Bubba Franks' 4-yard touchdown catch , and they appeared to catch a huge break when Andersen slipped on a 29-yard field goal attempt.

But Walker, who bruised his shin earlier in the second quarter, changed his deep route and safety Brian Russell had an easy interception. Two plays later, Burleson burned Carroll for a 19-yard touchdown catch that made it 24-10.

Comment woodbuck27:

Here comes the Brett Favre misfire: :)

The Packers drove to the Vikings' 8, but Favre was whistled for an illegal forward pass when he scrambled and flung the ball to Walker in the end zone when he could have slid for the first down at the 2.


Then, Longwell missed a chip-shot 28-yarder.

"He's a great kicker. I'd like to think I'm a great quarterback," Favre said.

"And I'm kidding myself if I think great quarterbacks don't have bad days. Bad throws. Bad reads. Or kickers don't miss kicks. Or good corners don't get beat. Or offensive linemen don't hold from time to time. But it seemed like all those things happened today."

Walker didn't play in the second half, and Green Bay's high-octane offense sputtered in trying to keep up with Culpepper & Co.

"When we put points up on the board, there's not too many teams that can mess with us," Burleson said.

courtesy The Associated Press


and this:

Turnovers Again Seal Packers' Fate

by Dave Lawrence, Packers.com
posted 01/09/2005

Green Bay GM/Head Coach Mike Sherman said it time and time again throughout this season, and it's been one of his constant principles throughout his five seasons at the helm of the Green Bay Packers - you can't afford to lose the turnover battle and expect to win consistently in the National Football League.

That belief was proven true once again Sunday, as the Packers turned the ball over four times while not forcing a single one from the Minnesota Vikings as the home team's season came crashing to a halt with a 31-17 defeat in the NFC Wild Card Playoff game.

Oddly enough, the Packers had bucked the conventional thinking over the course of the 2004 season, overcoming a minus-14 turnover ratio - 27th out of 32 NFL teams - to win 10 games and their third straight NFC North Division title.

But Sherman knew that they would have to take better care of the ball if they were going to make hay in the postseason tournament.

In a bit of a prophetic moment at a press conference last Monday, the coach was asked if the Pack could expect to last long in the playoffs without making a turnaround in the turnover department.

"I don't think so," Sherman replied.

"I don't think you can turn the ball over and expect to win at any time. I count my blessings every time we win a game where we are minus in the turnover ratio.

"I've said it many, many times - you can play bad football and win the game if you don't turn the ball over. You don't have to be great if you don't turn the ball over. I've always felt that. And you can play great football and turn the ball over and lose. So we have to be able to hang on to the football."

But hanging on to the football is the one thing the Green Bay offense was unable to do on this hazy January evening.

Brett Favre threw four interceptions - two each before and after halftime - and the Packers were unable to overcome the hole they dug by handing the ball over to the Vikings.

The quarterback said after the game that he knew what a key role his offense would have to play in advancing in the playoffs, and that his turnovers Sunday were one of the main causes that the Packers will be spectators for the remainder of the postseason.

"We are kind of the ace in the hole for this team, offensively," said Favre.

"We have a veteran group. We are explosive, and when we're not, it's usually a result of our mistakes. We put our team in a tremendous bind - one that we usually can't bail ourselves out of. That's a lot of pressure offensively, but it is what it is."

Right tackle Mark Tauscher stated just how important a factor turnovers play in determining who wins and who goes home.

"When you don't execute, you turn the ball over," the lineman said.

"Turnovers are the name of the game. When you can't get turnovers and you turn the ball over as much as we did, it's a recipe for what happened today."

The Packers' loss continued a trend that hounded them throughout the season. Sunday was the team's seventh loss of the campaign and in six of those defeats, the Green and Gold was behind in the turnover battle, contributing to them being behind on the scoreboard.

Sherman summed up just what it was that caused his team's year to come to an abrupt halt Sunday in just a few short sentences.

"We didn't play very well today. We made too many mistakes to win the ballgame."

[packinpatland]

But Walker, who bruised his shin earlier in the second quarter, changed his deep route and safety Brian Russell had an easy interception. Two plays later, Burleson burned Carroll for a 19-yard touchdown catch that made it 24-10.

You're very quick to point Favre's INT's, where does fault lie with this one?

[Packnut]

I just think everyone saw the Philly game and realized it was the worst coaching job of all time in a play-off game.......

It wasn't only 4th and 26th that was the boneheaded play, but not going for it on 4th and inches when your RB racked up 1800 yards that season.


There were several calls that game that were stupid from a coaching stand-point.

[FritzDontBlitz]

I vaguely remember a game where the Packers held the Lions' Barry Sanders to next to nothing yards.
When was that??

Wild card game after the '94 season.

it was -1 yards rushing.

[woodbuck27]

But Walker, who bruised his shin earlier in the second quarter, changed his deep route and safety Brian Russell had an easy interception. Two plays later, Burleson burned Carroll for a 19-yard touchdown catch that made it 24-10.

You're very quick to point Favre's INT's, where does fault lie with this one?

I'm not pointing fingers at anything in this game.

Favre had a really bad day. That can't be refuted. Favre was disappointed in that performance.

QUARTERBACK BRETT FAVRE: (on how he feels after this loss to the Vikings)

"Terrible and that is an understatement. I expect more out of myself, obviously. My expectation out of myself and this team are probably no different than everyone in this room and everyone watching the game. As I was talking to Mike Sherman just now I said, 'you know it's a lame excuse but I am going to use it anyway, some days it's just not your day for some reason.' I know some people will say it is a home playoff game and it does not get any better than that and it doesn't. I was prepared to play this game, how could I not be we just played them two weeks ago. Our team was prepared. They (the Vikings) were prepared too. I knew it would be difficult, but I give them credit but it was disappointing. We have been down this road before and I don't know if that makes it easier or worse but I wish them the best of luck. But I sure wish we could have went on and seen what we could have done."


The TO ratio of 4-0 against us was a killer.That can"t be refuted. That can"t be blamed on Mike Sherman.

I don"t always blame a pick on the QB. The reason for a pick has to be analyzed.

I'm rather passing on an opinion on how the Favre flip after he crossed the line of scrimmage and could have easily run for a first down if not a TD and his facial reaction to that play . . .
may have incensed the Packer people in power.

It's just a query that I'm hanging out there for a response.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I vaguely remember a game where the Packers held the Lions' Barry Sanders to next to nothing yards.
When was that??

Wild card game after the '94 season.

it was -1 yards rushing.

I think they held him the Lions to -13 as a team in that game, but I could be off.

[esoxx]

I've always maintained the combination of Favre at QB and the weak NFC North conspirated to inflate Sherman's win-loss record.

Try to imagine if he had Joey Harrington instead. Yes, perhaps it made a bit of a difference.

[cpk1994]

I vaguely remember a game where the Packers held the Lions' Barry Sanders to next to nothing yards.
When was that??

Wild card game after the '94 season.

it was -1 yards rushing.

I think they held him the Lions to -13 as a team in that game, but I could be off.

/I think the 13 you may be thinking of is Sanders's carry total 13 carries -1 yards. Lions as a team had -7.