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Bretsky
05-12-2007, 10:39 AM
As some of you know I do home loans for a living at one of the larger banks in Wisconsin. I've often debated the benefits of home ownership and thought I'd share this interesting article for those considering it in the near future

Yes, we've all heard the reasons that everyone will benefit from homeownership. Here's why that's not necessarily so.

Fear stampeded a lot of people into buying a home during the recent real estate boom. Now we're seeing the even more fearsome fallout.

People who were terrified about being priced out of the real estate market are now horrified by their ever-rising mortgage payments. People who were afraid of missing out on the "easy money" of home-price appreciation are now anxiously realizing that what goes up can also come down.

Foreclosures are spiking. Sales and prices are stalling. Lenders are finally tightening up ridiculously loose lending standards, just at the point where many people are realizing they can't afford the mortgage they have and desperately need a new one.

Despite all of this, I still hear from people who are pressuring themselves into buying a house even when it's not something they necessarily want or need.

It's a fact that homeownership is a great way for most people to build wealth over time. But that doesn't mean everyone should be a homeowner. It's a bigger commitment and more expensive than most first-time buyers ever realize. You should have a clear idea of what you're getting into before you commit to 30 years of payments -- and you shouldn't let any of the following popular legends guide your decision.

'It's a good investment'
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Nationally, home prices rose 50% between 2000 and 2005, and in more than 30 cities -- including San Diego, Los Angeles, Miami and Washington, D.C. -- prices doubled.

But that's not the norm. In the 30 prior years, from 1969 to 1999, the average appreciation for homes exceeded the inflation rate by a little more than 1 percentage point. Compare that to stocks, which bested inflation by 7 percentage points in the same period.

And appreciation isn't a given, as homeowners in Detroit, Santa Barbara, Calif., and Kokomo, Ind., are learning.

So far, the price declines have been pretty mild. Let's hope we don't see a repeat of the real estate recessions that gripped Boston, Dallas, Houston, Anchorage and Southern California in the 1980s and 1990s.

After dropping more than 20% in the 1990s, for example, Los Angeles home prices took almost 10 years to regain their peak, says real estate expert John Karevoll, an analyst with DataQuick Information Systems. Anyone who lived here during that time knows people who were upside down -- owing a bigger mortgage than the home could be sold for. Thousands of people simply walked away from houses they couldn't sell, trashing their credit ratings in the process. Lenders slashed the prices on foreclosed homes to get rid of their burgeoning inventories, which further drove down property values. It was an ugly cycle that, once started, was hard to stop.

Even when prices are perking along normally, though, your home may benefit your bottom line less than you think. Home-price appreciation figures don't take into account the considerable amounts homeowners shell out along the way. The Wall Street Journal once estimated a typical homeowner over 30 years would pay nearly four times the house's purchase price in maintenance, repairs and improvements.

A home is primarily a place to live. Its value as an investment is secondary and certainly is no replacement for a well-diversified portfolio of stocks and bonds.

'I'm tired of throwing away money on rent'
Normally, renting is cheaper than owning. But in some cities, soaring real estate prices have made renting so much cheaper that it's getting really tough to make the case for becoming a homeowner.

For many people, the choice is between renting an affordable place in a good neighborhood and straining to buy either a less desirable place or one that requires a tortuous commute.

And as we're seeing, many people stretched themselves way too far to buy houses. They opted for adjustable mortgages or loans with exotic terms; what initially seemed like reasonable payments suddenly spiked, throwing financial lives into chaos and contributing to the current high delinquency rate.

You're not really throwing money away when you send a check to your landlord, anyway. You're exchanging it for a place to live. You're also getting flexibility and freedom -- things you sacrifice when you buy a home.

When you're a renter, it's the landlord, not you, who is generally responsible for maintenance, repairs and the toilet that blows up in the middle of the night. If the neighborhood should start to slide, or you get or lose a job, you can up and move, often with just a few weeks' notice.

It's true that you may have to deal with rising rents and recalcitrant landlords. Homeowners, however, are often stuck with rising taxes and maintenance costs, as well as recalcitrant neighbors.

Moving is never fun, but moving when you own a home is an expensive, time-consuming process. Finding a buyer can take months in all but the hottest markets, and you should figure selling costs will eat up about 10% of your home's value, once you add agent commissions and moving expenses. On a $250,000 home sale, that's like piling up $25,000 in cash and setting fire to it -- that much of your equity is gone for good.

In other words, homeownership is more like marriage; renting is more like living together. Make sure you're ready to be wedded to a house before you propose to leave behind life as a renter.

'I need the tax deduction'
Buying a house just for the mortgage break would be like giving somebody a buck just to get 35 cents or less in return.

That's because your write-off is limited to your tax bracket. If you're in the top federal tax bracket, every dollar you pay in mortgage interest only saves you 35 cents in taxes. Most people get even less, since they're in the 25% or lower tax brackets.

Don't misunderstand -- the tax break is nice, and you need somewhere to live. But you should make sure you can really afford to own a home before you take the plunge.

Remember that many of the real costs of owning a home aren't deductible. Uncle Sam won't give you a break for insurance, repairs or maintenance, for example -- and those costs can really add up.

Most homeowners should plan to spend at least 1% of their home's purchase price each year on maintenance and repairs, says finance expert Eric Tyson -- and more if they plan to hire someone else to do all the work. Tyson, a co-author of "Home Buying for Dummies," recommends setting aside some money each month in an emergency fund. You may not spend the whole amount every year, but sooner or later a big expense will come along -- a new furnace or roof, for instance -- that will consume several years' worth of savings.

If you fail to maintain your home properly, you'll pay even more when it comes time to sell. Many buyers won't even bid on a property that shows significant neglect. Even in hot markets, buyers are likely to ask for expensive concessions to pay for the repairs you should have been doing all along.

The key tests

The best advice on the issue of whether to buy remains the time-tested version: Do it when it's right for you. That means being able to agree to all the following statements:

I plan to stay put for at least three years. If the real estate market in your area is weak, you may need even longer for price appreciation to offset the costs of selling and moving.

I can swing all the costs involved. That requires, most importantly, having enough cash for a decent down payment (which in today's lending environment may mean at least 5% of the purchase price). I'm also a fan of using good, old-fashioned fixed-rate mortgages -- either the 30-year variety or hybrid loans that are fixed for as long as you plan to remain in the house.

If you can't swing the payments with one of those loans, you probably can't afford the place. (If you are contemplating a less traditional loan, make sure you find out how high the payments can go and determine whether you could afford to pay them.) Then make sure you can afford all the incidental costs, including taxes, insurance, homeownership association dues and assessments, repairs and maintenance. It's not a bad idea to limit your total housing outlay to 25% or 30% of your gross income, especially if you want to have money left over to save for retirement, fund your children's college educations and take the occasional vacation.

I want to be a homeowner. Houses are expensive and complicated to buy, finance and maintain. Appreciation is far from a given. If you don't have a strong desire to own your own walls, and do what it takes to keep them in good shape, you're probably better off remaining a renter -- at least for now.

GoPackGo
05-12-2007, 10:51 AM
Thanks for sharing the wisdom. Due to credit card and student loan debt, and uncertainty of where we are going to live next, My wife and I are still renting. Articles like this make me more confident we are doing the right thing.

oregonpackfan
05-12-2007, 10:55 AM
Excellent article, Bretsky. Thanks for sharing it.

Bretsky
05-12-2007, 01:23 PM
Thanks.

Honestly, I wish the RR would have more information such as this; used to love this area and now I hardly ever look in here.

I may try to throw out some real life stuff like this here and there and see if there is any interest or debate.

One of the best threads I ever recall in here was one about making money/investing/retiring early/homebuying, but that one is long long gone

Cheers,
B

mraynrand
05-12-2007, 02:19 PM
One of the best threads I ever recall in here was one about making money/investing/retiring early/homebuying, but that one is long long gone

Cheers,
B

People are too busy maintaining their #&*^!!#@ homes to post in here!

LL2
05-14-2007, 02:00 PM
This is a very good article. I’m a finance news junkie and love investing, so I read stuff all the time. Stay away from Robert Kiyosaki “Rich Dad Poor Dad” guy. He has made his money in real estate, but made more from his self-help books and seminars. He has a nugget of wisdom here and there but his stuff isn’t really a “how to” but more motivational fluff. Plus, he advises against investing in mutual funds and stocks over real estate and he couldn’t be more wrong. It has been historically proven that the stock market will out perform real estate by an average of 4 to 1 long term. I love investing in the market and last year my 401k went up 19% and this year is already up 13%, and I’m expecting around 20% total returns this year. I do my research so I tend to do better than most. Most people do not have a clue on how to invest and do not know how to pick funds or stocks.

I look at real estate, such as my house not a rental property, as a “living” investment. It’s an investment in shelter for my family and a place to live. Far too many buy a house for “investment potential” and get burned. If you study people that have accumulated wealth they do not include their house as part of their net worth. Your personal residence is actually a liability. Liabilities create bills (property tax, interest, utilities, maintenance), and that’s all homes really to.

Partial
05-16-2007, 12:04 AM
Thanks.

Honestly, I wish the RR would have more information such as this; used to love this area and now I hardly ever look in here.

I may try to throw out some real life stuff like this here and there and see if there is any interest or debate.

One of the best threads I ever recall in here was one about making money/investing/retiring early/homebuying, but that one is long long gone

Cheers,
B

Mr. Bretsky,

How is it that people let themselves get into credit card debt exactly? I never quite understood this. I am sure you see it with quite a few people though in your field.

Are people just unwilling to cut back on expenses, or is their cost of living greater than their income? Is this something I should worry about? I don't have any credit card debt or anything but I don't have very much money in the bank either.

In your opinion, would it be wise to move out to cali post college and collect the massive paychecks for a year or two and try and gut it out as cheap as possible to earn the money for a downpayment on a house? Salaries out there for computer jobs are twice what they are here, but then again cost of living is double. But, getting to the relevance of the article, is it possible to beat the system by renting out someplace very cheap and living without the finer things for a year or two, or is the difference in cost of living so high that it would not be worth the headache?

It's good to be back; the JSO forums suck the life right out of me. Good grief that place is terrible.

Bretsky
05-16-2007, 09:12 PM
Thanks.

Honestly, I wish the RR would have more information such as this; used to love this area and now I hardly ever look in here.

I may try to throw out some real life stuff like this here and there and see if there is any interest or debate.

One of the best threads I ever recall in here was one about making money/investing/retiring early/homebuying, but that one is long long gone

Cheers,
B

Mr. Bretsky,

How is it that people let themselves get into credit card debt exactly? I never quite understood this. I am sure you see it with quite a few people though in your field.

Are people just unwilling to cut back on expenses, or is their cost of living greater than their income? Is this something I should worry about? I don't have any credit card debt or anything but I don't have very much money in the bank either.

In your opinion, would it be wise to move out to cali post college and collect the massive paychecks for a year or two and try and gut it out as cheap as possible to earn the money for a downpayment on a house? Salaries out there for computer jobs are twice what they are here, but then again cost of living is double. But, getting to the relevance of the article, is it possible to beat the system by renting out someplace very cheap and living without the finer things for a year or two, or is the difference in cost of living so high that it would not be worth the headache?

It's good to be back; the JSO forums suck the life right out of me. Good grief that place is terrible.

In terms of CC debt IMO most who get in trouble do so because they are just not responsible with money. It's not that they make too much; they just spend way too much and assume they'll be able to catch up later...it becomes a habit..and they never catch up.

If you can live cheap for a couple years and pack money away for the downpayment IMO that is a wonderful option that will allow you to get ahead sooner. But the challenge is to be disciplined enough that you do set the wads of money aside rather than spending it unwisely.

As for going to California, that is really your preference IMO; I think it depends on where you want to live as well as your lifestyle. I think you can pack away the same amount of money relatively speaking in WI making 44-50G per year that you can in California making 90G per year or so and paying more rent.

Tony Oday
05-16-2007, 10:57 PM
As with Mr B I am in the same field with the second largest bank in the world. The article can be decent however it is basically saying know the costs of homeownership.

The reason being a homeowner is a great investment is because on average most people live paycheck to paycheck and only invest in their 401(k) and with todays companies not having pensions in most cases the only other investment will be a persons home. Investing in a home is like investing in T-Bills. You shouldnt lose money over time but comparable to the stock market you wont gain much 'real' money.

Most people that I have seen lately are mortgaging their future to have things now. People with $500 car payments, 15k in Credit Cards and purchased the home on an a hybrid arm to purchase more home than they could really afford. This is a recipe for a disaster since this will put most people to their limit of what they can afford an any small bump in the road will lead to the slippery slope of missing payments.

If you are going to purchase a home buy LESS than you can afford. You really want to purchase that new car? Purchase the used version to save money. Invest your 401(k) to the full amount that your company matches, usually 6%, then invest in an IRA or another investment vehicle another 4% of your income. This is for a younger couple. You follow this and you should be in good shape.

Partial
05-17-2007, 12:02 AM
As with Mr B I am in the same field with the second largest bank in the world. The article can be decent however it is basically saying know the costs of homeownership.

The reason being a homeowner is a great investment is because on average most people live paycheck to paycheck and only invest in their 401(k) and with todays companies not having pensions in most cases the only other investment will be a persons home. Investing in a home is like investing in T-Bills. You shouldnt lose money over time but comparable to the stock market you wont gain much 'real' money.

Most people that I have seen lately are mortgaging their future to have things now. People with $500 car payments, 15k in Credit Cards and purchased the home on an a hybrid arm to purchase more home than they could really afford. This is a recipe for a disaster since this will put most people to their limit of what they can afford an any small bump in the road will lead to the slippery slope of missing payments.

If you are going to purchase a home buy LESS than you can afford. You really want to purchase that new car? Purchase the used version to save money. Invest your 401(k) to the full amount that your company matches, usually 6%, then invest in an IRA or another investment vehicle another 4% of your income. This is for a younger couple. You follow this and you should be in good shape.

When factoring in the 4x salary to buy a house, do you do before or after taxes?

Girlfriend and I will have income of probably 100,000+ between the two of us straight outta college and we're gonna start saving right away.

Bretsky
05-17-2007, 12:22 AM
As with Mr B I am in the same field with the second largest bank in the world. The article can be decent however it is basically saying know the costs of homeownership.

The reason being a homeowner is a great investment is because on average most people live paycheck to paycheck and only invest in their 401(k) and with todays companies not having pensions in most cases the only other investment will be a persons home. Investing in a home is like investing in T-Bills. You shouldnt lose money over time but comparable to the stock market you wont gain much 'real' money.

Most people that I have seen lately are mortgaging their future to have things now. People with $500 car payments, 15k in Credit Cards and purchased the home on an a hybrid arm to purchase more home than they could really afford. This is a recipe for a disaster since this will put most people to their limit of what they can afford an any small bump in the road will lead to the slippery slope of missing payments.

If you are going to purchase a home buy LESS than you can afford. You really want to purchase that new car? Purchase the used version to save money. Invest your 401(k) to the full amount that your company matches, usually 6%, then invest in an IRA or another investment vehicle another 4% of your income. This is for a younger couple. You follow this and you should be in good shape.

When factoring in the 4x salary to buy a house, do you do before or after taxes?

Girlfriend and I will have income of probably 100,000+ between the two of us straight outta college and we're gonna start saving right away.


4x ? That's a pretty liberal figure to use IMO.

Banks would look at your income before taxes.

I'd be looking more at the Total Debt to Income Ratio. First figure out your monthly income. If total monthly income is 8G (96,000 per year), then figure out what about 40% of that is. While you might be able to get approved for more, it's good to keep your total monthly debts at or below that 40% mark.

If 8G per month, that means total payments of monthly debts not exceeding 3200/month. Start at 3200, and now subtract any and all monthly payments on auto loans or student loans. I'd hope you would not have any high interest CC debt if buying a home.

Let's say you have two auto loans at 300 a piece and student loans at 400 per month.

My view is your housing payment should not exceed $2200 per month.

Now can you get approved at a higher debt to income ratio if your credit is good ? Absolutely. But whether you want to put yourself in that position is debatable.

Cheers,
B

Tony Oday
05-19-2007, 02:42 AM
As with Mr B I am in the same field with the second largest bank in the world. The article can be decent however it is basically saying know the costs of homeownership.

The reason being a homeowner is a great investment is because on average most people live paycheck to paycheck and only invest in their 401(k) and with todays companies not having pensions in most cases the only other investment will be a persons home. Investing in a home is like investing in T-Bills. You shouldnt lose money over time but comparable to the stock market you wont gain much 'real' money.

Most people that I have seen lately are mortgaging their future to have things now. People with $500 car payments, 15k in Credit Cards and purchased the home on an a hybrid arm to purchase more home than they could really afford. This is a recipe for a disaster since this will put most people to their limit of what they can afford an any small bump in the road will lead to the slippery slope of missing payments.

If you are going to purchase a home buy LESS than you can afford. You really want to purchase that new car? Purchase the used version to save money. Invest your 401(k) to the full amount that your company matches, usually 6%, then invest in an IRA or another investment vehicle another 4% of your income. This is for a younger couple. You follow this and you should be in good shape.

When factoring in the 4x salary to buy a house, do you do before or after taxes?

Girlfriend and I will have income of probably 100,000+ between the two of us straight outta college and we're gonna start saving right away.


4x ? That's a pretty liberal figure to use IMO.

Banks would look at your income before taxes.

I'd be looking more at the Total Debt to Income Ratio. First figure out your monthly income. If total monthly income is 8G (96,000 per year), then figure out what about 40% of that is. While you might be able to get approved for more, it's good to keep your total monthly debts at or below that 40% mark.

If 8G per month, that means total payments of monthly debts not exceeding 3200/month. Start at 3200, and now subtract any and all monthly payments on auto loans or student loans. I'd hope you would not have any high interest CC debt if buying a home.

Let's say you have two auto loans at 300 a piece and student loans at 400 per month.

My view is your housing payment should not exceed $2200 per month.

Now can you get approved at a higher debt to income ratio if your credit is good ? Absolutely. But whether you want to put yourself in that position is debatable.

Cheers,
B

Also do not forget that a house costs money. The hot water heater can go out, the ac can go out, the roof can leak, so on and so on. I like the 40% mark for Debt to income.

remember that you have to look towards the future with retirement, do not turn into a lot of the people out there and get over your head. If you do it can be a real slippery slope.

Bretsky
05-19-2007, 08:21 AM
As with Mr B I am in the same field with the second largest bank in the world. The article can be decent however it is basically saying know the costs of homeownership.

The reason being a homeowner is a great investment is because on average most people live paycheck to paycheck and only invest in their 401(k) and with todays companies not having pensions in most cases the only other investment will be a persons home. Investing in a home is like investing in T-Bills. You shouldnt lose money over time but comparable to the stock market you wont gain much 'real' money.

Most people that I have seen lately are mortgaging their future to have things now. People with $500 car payments, 15k in Credit Cards and purchased the home on an a hybrid arm to purchase more home than they could really afford. This is a recipe for a disaster since this will put most people to their limit of what they can afford an any small bump in the road will lead to the slippery slope of missing payments.

If you are going to purchase a home buy LESS than you can afford. You really want to purchase that new car? Purchase the used version to save money. Invest your 401(k) to the full amount that your company matches, usually 6%, then invest in an IRA or another investment vehicle another 4% of your income. This is for a younger couple. You follow this and you should be in good shape.

When factoring in the 4x salary to buy a house, do you do before or after taxes?

Girlfriend and I will have income of probably 100,000+ between the two of us straight outta college and we're gonna start saving right away.


4x ? That's a pretty liberal figure to use IMO.

Banks would look at your income before taxes.

I'd be looking more at the Total Debt to Income Ratio. First figure out your monthly income. If total monthly income is 8G (96,000 per year), then figure out what about 40% of that is. While you might be able to get approved for more, it's good to keep your total monthly debts at or below that 40% mark.

If 8G per month, that means total payments of monthly debts not exceeding 3200/month. Start at 3200, and now subtract any and all monthly payments on auto loans or student loans. I'd hope you would not have any high interest CC debt if buying a home.

Let's say you have two auto loans at 300 a piece and student loans at 400 per month.

My view is your housing payment should not exceed $2200 per month.

Now can you get approved at a higher debt to income ratio if your credit is good ? Absolutely. But whether you want to put yourself in that position is debatable.

Cheers,
B

Also do not forget that a house costs money. The hot water heater can go out, the ac can go out, the roof can leak, so on and so on. I like the 40% mark for Debt to income.

remember that you have to look towards the future with retirement, do not turn into a lot of the people out there and get over your head. If you do it can be a real slippery slope.


40% on the total debt to income is a comfortable figure; if more income is expected near term you might feel comfortable doing higher, but I don't think it should be much higher or people are strained.

You'd be amazed at how many approvals are made with a total debt to income ratio above 60%. Those people are stretched and barring serious pay raises they will have a hard time getting out of what they got into.

oregonpackfan
05-19-2007, 11:47 AM
Girlfriend and I will have income of probably 100,000+ between the two of us straight outta college and we're gonna start saving right away.[/quote]

Partial,

It sounds like you and your girlfriend have good financial heads on your shoulders.

Investing early in 401Ks, IRAs will reap huge financial rewards for you later in life. I believe it was Einstein who said, "Compound interest is the strongest force in the universe!"

I have never heard of anyone in their 40's, 50's, or 60's say anything to the effect of "I starting saving and investing at too early an age."

Most of us in our later years wistfully say, "If only I had started saving and investing in my 20's..."

Follow through with your dreams, young man! :)