Favre or No Favre? Ted Thompson or No Ted Thompson?

[Merlin]

After reading all of the "Favre Trade" posts, I pondered where to put my response to this. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and there has been more diversity in opinions over this topic then I have seen in a long time here (probably because it's he off season and we are bored). So instead of replying to what someone else has said and get into what would be an obvious argument, I decided to post a new thread to say my peace and leave it at that.

When Favre first appeared in a game for us, I admit it, I didn't like the guy. I thought he was too wild and would not settle down long enough to become what he has. After the 1993 season, my attitude changed. It was his almost child like approach to the game that caused me to change my tune. He didn't care what the stats said, he didn't care what defense the other team was in. All he cared about was playing the game and winning. From that point on I have been in his corner. Some say Reggie White was the reason we went to two super bowls, others say Favre. Personally I think they both played their parts and it was White's leadership on defense and Favre's leadership on offense. It was also Holmgren's patience with Favre. He could have pulled the plug on him at anytime, but yet he stuck with him.

Favre has done nothing for the Packers but try to win. His retirement talk I believe was fueled by the media. Ever since he mentioned it years ago, the media can't let it go. Over the course of the past two seasons Packer fans everywhere held their breath in hopes that Favre would return. I don't think his decision had anything to do with really wanting to hang em up, it had to do with his family and whether or not the Packers were committed to winning. When Thompson was hired, he stripped the offensive line and replaced them with no one. When the offense was decimated with injuries, he replaced them with no one. Although Samkon Gado was a spark, he was not a starting running back when we picked him up. Then Thompson gave Javon Walker what he wanted and replaced him with Koren Robinson, a player with more baggage then Randy Moss and who isn't even on the roster. He picked up a QB as his first ever draft pick and he immediately became #2 even though he had never taken a snap in the NFL at any level. So instead of getting a viable backup to Favre, he got a rookie with questionable skills. Say what you want about Doug Peterson and Craig Nall, but they did the job when called upon. Rodgers hasn't as of yet. Thompson went out on a limb and signed Charles Woodson, a big name free agent. I believe this was an attempt to show Favre that he was dedicated to winning now. Unfortunately, he did nothing on the offensive side of the ball to improve the team now. This past off season TT let Green go and although he wasn't worth the big contract he got from Houston, I believe something could have been worked out to keep him here. Our Leading scorer, Ryan Longwell left for Minnesota and Thompson replaced him with a backup and then drafted a kicker this year. He let David Martin go, who when healthy was the best TE we had. Then he released William Henderson, a reliable veteran with gas left in the tank, great mentor and team player, making the vet minimum. The move cost the Packers much more then it saved us.

So come draft day when TT didn't do everything he could to bring a big name player to the Packers, Favre got pissed off. I would have to guess that Favre knew a lot about this possible move because his agent was involved and he had been in contact with Randy Moss personally. To say he didn't know anything is naive. He knows plenty as I am sure he tracks personnel moves as much as we do. It is the team he plays for and he does care about the team and winning. There have been plenty of opportunities in the off season to get some veteran leadership on offense. We have all debated those players in our forums. There are still the June 1st cap cuts and training camp cuts. But how many more players with Randy Moss' abilities will be available? I am guessing, none. For the second season in a row, it appears Ted is happy going in with enough money under the cap to sign a few good veterans on offense.

Do I blame Favre for wanting to be traded? No, not at all. In fact I think it lends a lot of creditability to what I have speculated all along, Thompson doesn't want Favre. The main reason? As long as Favre is around, he has more creditability, likability and is the face of the franchise. Don't kid yourselves, Thompson has a healthy ego and when Favre speaks, people listen. Otherwise this topic would be a mute issue. He sees the writing on the wall as many of us have. Expecting Favre to be your offense at this point in his career is mismanagement. Last season McCarthy told Favre he would not have to carry the offense anymore. He had to carry the offense in 2006. Was it a lie? Who knows but to say that he isn't expected to carry the offense in 2007 with less talent then we had in 2005 after injuries would be the same as saying the ocean is dry.

I have given Ted Thompson all the time I am willing to give him. If his "plan" isn't readily evident this season, which would be nothing short of the playoffs, then not only is Favre done, so will be a lot of the fans. This is the Packers, our team, not Ted "tightwad" Thompson's team. The sooner he realizes that, the sooner we will field an NFL offense. Unfortunately, people like Thompson normally don't get it.

[Spaulding]

Merlin, not sure where all the thoughts of TT's ego are founded. He simply has a plan and a method which he believes so strongly in that he doesn't waver from it.

Was Thompson known as an egomaniac in Seattle? Does he seek out attention as the Packer's GM? The guy is quiet and confident - does that automatically suggest arrogance??

TT has been a GM in the NFL and as our current GM I expect him to have the skills and demeanor to rebuild this organization.

In this day and age, NFL teams are like the tide with high points and low points. Given the shape of our roster due to age and lack of depth I see merit in Thompson's approach. Whether the players drafted are poor, average or solid starters still remains to be seen in just TT's third year as GM.

Would I rather have an impulsive GM like Sherman or calulate the odds and show no emotion poker player like TT as a GM? Obviously based on my defense of TT I'm for the latter.

The whole odd thing about all these recent postings is that I really don't care for TT the person. I rue the day I won't get to see Brett take the snaps under center for the Packers. But as a GM I feel that TT is doing what he believes as right for the organization and I have to believe that he has all the skills and tools to make those decisions that I as a fan can't.

Bottom line, I don't believe ego is what makes TT tick. Confidence about a plan he believes in (to his success or failure) does.

[Merlin]

Well thought out, accept he does have an ego. He flaunts it every time he speaks. Having the courage of your convictions is one thing, having an ego to destroy a team is another. You forget that TT took over part of Holmgren's responsibilities. Holmgren, like Favre is untouchable. Favre may not be a Packer come September and then and only then will you see TT have the courage of his convictions when Rodgers proves to be a bust and all he does is throw veteran leadership at the offensive woes. His direction is misguided in the belief that a 17 year veteran QB can keep your team competitive alone. He knows that as long as Favre is there, his "dream" will never come to fruition. He has done everything to build to this moment. Don't be surprised if Favre isn't a Packer come the regular season. Thompson's ego will field trade offers without question.

[pbmax]

Merlin I agree with most of your post, but this line:


His retirement talk I believe was fueled by the media.

ignores the fact that HE started it all. He gave an interview to SI/Silver in 2001 and again to King in preseason before the start of the next season.

This was not an issue because of the media flogging it (it was overcovered, certainly), it was an issue because he brought it up in the first place and then kept commenting.

[pbmax]

Thompson didn't demote Holmgren, Paul Allen and Bob Whitsitt did. That wasn't the doing of Thompson. And from all indications, What changed wasn't Thompson's responsibilities (player personnel) but who he reported to (Whitsitt instead of Holmgren).


Well thought out, accept he does have an ego. He flaunts it every time he speaks. Having the courage of your convictions is one thing, having an ego to destroy a team is another. You forget that TT took over part of Holmgren's responsibilities..

[Fritz]

"Do I blame Favre for wanting to be traded? No, not at all. In fact I think it lends a lot of creditability to what I have speculated all along, Thompson doesn't want Favre."

I thought someone might say this. But if Thompson really didn't want Favre around, wouldn't he have jumped on this and traded Favre, claiming he wanted to honor the future Hall of Famer's wishes? It would be the perfect scenario for all you conspiracy theorists - TT gets his secret desire to be rid of Favre while pretending he didn't really want to do it, but only did so out of respect for the great QB. But TT didn't do that.

So Merlin, in my estimation the opposite of what you say is true. This whole flap actually undermines the claim of those who somehow think that what's behind all this is TT's fervent desire to get rid of Brett Favre.

[Spaulding]

Well thought out, accept he does have an ego. He flaunts it every time he speaks. Having the courage of your convictions is one thing, having an ego to destroy a team is another. You forget that TT took over part of Holmgren's responsibilities. Holmgren, like Favre is untouchable. Favre may not be a Packer come September and then and only then will you see TT have the courage of his convictions when Rodgers proves to be a bust and all he does is throw veteran leadership at the offensive woes. His direction is misguided in the belief that a 17 year veteran QB can keep your team competitive alone. He knows that as long as Favre is there, his "dream" will never come to fruition. He has done everything to build to this moment. Don't be surprised if Favre isn't a Packer come the regular season. Thompson's ego will field trade offers without question.

I see your point but still respectfully disagree. I haven't seen all the public outings by Thompson but in the ones I've seen I've never gotten the feeling that he's a power monger. The one way I could understand people thinking that is due to the fact that he doesn't explain his actions.

[wist43]

I don't want TT to act "impulsively"...

I want him to move deftly and intelligently into positions to get top flight players at positions need.

Is Meachem a pro bowl calibur WR??? I don't know, but I can guarentee you that one of the receivers out of the 1st couple of rounds will be of that calibur. It's TT's job to find that guy... It fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

Is Lynch a pro bowl calibur RB??? I don't know, but if he's rated high enough to where most teams had him going #12 to Buffalo, then TT certainly should have considered moving up to #11... it fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

TT is so rigid, that I don't ever see him moving up or down to fill needs... he's strictly a BPA, regardless of position. 6 quality DT's isn't going to score you any more TD's than 5 quality DT's will; but, I'm pretty sure they'll score fewer TD's than Meachem or Lynch.

[Spaulding]

I don't want TT to act "impulsively"...

I want him to move deftly and intelligently into positions to get top flight players at positions need.

Is Meachem a pro bowl calibur WR??? I don't know, but I can guarentee you that one of the receivers out of the 1st couple of rounds will be of that calibur. It's TT's job to find that guy... It fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

Is Lynch a pro bowl calibur RB??? I don't know, but if he's rated high enough to where most teams had him going #12 to Buffalo, then TT certainly should have considered moving up to #11... it fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

TT is so rigid, that I don't ever see him moving up or down to fill needs... he's strictly a BPA, regardless of position. 6 quality DT's isn't going to score you any more TD's than 5 quality DT's will; but, I'm pretty sure they'll score fewer TD's than Meachem or Lynch.

Wist, I agree with you. The only difference is I want to see how year three of TT as GM plays out. Is his confidence and inside information on his drafted players (mainly from 2005 as 2004 is looking pretty slim) well founded or do we flounder in mediocrity or worse in 2007? Is taking Harrell with the 1st pick a good move down the road and do the offensive players (Jackson, Jones, Clowney) provide the offensive spark needed in 2007?

Hard to say. For now though I'm fine with his approach as I trust Harlan in selecting him (and Wolf's endorsement) and I'm with holding full judgement until the latter half of this year.

In my eyes, the glass is half full. In your eyes the glass is evidently half empty :D

[pbmax]

Why does this running scheme need Lynch when 2nd through 6th rounders work in Denver?

You're thinking like Sherman, that one pick and one player is the only answer. More picks, better players thoughout the roster, make that single pick less important, less of a need to be a world-beater.

Criticism of the FA thing makes sense. But three drafts in, he's seems to know how to mine talent. It remains to be seen if he can finish the puzzle by adding the final pieces to a better team.

But of all the jobs a GM has, reading USAToday, ESPN.com and others, picking out the highest profile FA and overpaying for him seems like the easiest part.


I don't want TT to act "impulsively"...

I want him to move deftly and intelligently into positions to get top flight players at positions need.

Is Meachem a pro bowl calibur WR??? I don't know, but I can guarentee you that one of the receivers out of the 1st couple of rounds will be of that calibur. It's TT's job to find that guy... It fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

Is Lynch a pro bowl calibur RB??? I don't know, but if he's rated high enough to where most teams had him going #12 to Buffalo, then TT certainly should have considered moving up to #11... it fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

TT is so rigid, that I don't ever see him moving up or down to fill needs... he's strictly a BPA, regardless of position. 6 quality DT's isn't going to score you any more TD's than 5 quality DT's will; but, I'm pretty sure they'll score fewer TD's than Meachem or Lynch.

[PackerBlues]

All things considered, I can see how Moss may have led both Favre and his agent on. (and yes, perhaps even the front office of the GB Packers) Its not hard to imagine Moss using them as bargaining tools to up his pay in NE.

That being said, you should all tone down the way you are bashing Favre on this. Favre has never called attention to himself in the media in the way that some on these forums are claiming. He has however spoke honestly and freely with the media whenever they asked him questions. Particularly the media in mississippi. Perhaps I am wrong in saying this also, but the main talks had to be between Moss's agent and the Packers. Bus Cooke WAS Moss's agent, but from my understanding he has not been for quite some time now and another agent was in control on this one. So if Thompson was not filling in Favre (and I agree, he had no reason to) then Favre would have gotten all of his imformation not only from Bus Cook, but also more than likely, Randy Moss himself.

Now, think about that for a minute. For Moss, to have a guy of Brett Favres fame, rooting for you, and wanting you on his team.........it opened some eyes, and more than likely opened NE's wallet a little more than if he would have just come out and said he would only accept a trade to NE.

The part of this that I really dont understand and can get no "feel for" is why in the world would Al Davis send Moss to another AFC team? Moss really should not have had that much say in where he went, and if he was just playing games with GB, Davis could have pulled the trigger on the trade with GB and forced Moss's hand. Had that happened, we would have found out for sure if he really ever wanted to play in GB or if he was just using Favre and GB as bargaining tools.

I am pretty sure that to find out the truth in all of this, we would actually have to hear from Al Davis, and perhaps Moss himself. Moss's silence since going to NE in regards to his supposed desire to play with Brett Favre speaks volumes in and of itself.

In the end, I believe the most likely scenario would be that Moss had been talking directly to Favre, trying to get help to get GB to up their offer in hopes that it would get NE to up their offer. Favre being the honest and trusting guy he is, bought into Moss's lies and got his hopes up that he would have an unstoppable WR core to go along with ...............ummmmmm..........Bubba and whatever rookies they have to fill in at the TE position and RB positions.......oh, and the FB positions.

If you open your eyes, I think you can see that Favre just wanted some veteran, proven players on offense to make life easier for him this season. As it is, he now has Driver, Jennings, Bubba "stone hands" Franks, and a bunch of unknowns.

[pbmax]

Davis couldn't, because before the Packers would trade the pick, they would have needed to have the new contract agreed to with Moss. No team wnated him on the roster with the old contract.

Moss torpedoed that when he asked for guaranteed money.


The part of this that I really dont understand and can get no "feel for" is why in the world would Al Davis send Moss to another AFC team? Moss really should not have had that much say in where he went, and if he was just playing games with GB, Davis could have pulled the trigger on the trade with GB and forced Moss's hand.

[LL2]

I have been on vacation so I haven’t had the time to read all the Favre and TT threads. Sometimes when a thread gets past page two before I see it I tend not to read it, because I don’t have the time too. This one seems to sum up what many of those other threads are saying.

I agree with some of the different points here, but Favre has created his own “retire or not to retire” dilemma. That started before TT even came to the Packers. For the most part his retirement issue has gotten on my nerves from time to time, but I love the guy and want to see him play and at times I think it might be best to move on the Arod. Sure he may be a flop, but we have to find another QB sooner than later.

On the issue of TT not getting Moss. We do not know the full details and find it hard to believe Moss would’ve come to GB for the same or less money. Not when the Pats are that close to winning it all every year. When you are close to winning it every year like the Pats that’s when you go get a player like Moss. I’m not saying Moss wouldn’t have helped the Pack, but to say he would’ve put us over the top and got us to the NFC championship game is a joke.

I like TT’s approach and willing to give him this year and possibly 1 more before I call for his firing. The team was in a mess when he took over and in salary cap hell. So, I think we are better off today than we were three years ago.

I will always be a Packer fan regardless of who the QB or GM is. So, if TT’s move will drive fans away then they do not have the Green and Gold in their blood.

[Scott Campbell]

Favre has never called attention to himself in the media in the way that some on these forums are claiming.


Then that video on the front page of ESPN's website yesterday of him bitching about Ted must have been a mirage.

[packinpatland]

Favre has never called attention to himself in the media in the way that some on these forums are claiming.


Then that video on the front page of ESPN's website yesterday of him bitching about Ted must have been a mirage.

Come on Scott, he was at his annual fundraising golf event. We didn't hear the question he was asked, now did we?
In a perfect world, reporters would be there to ask him about his foundation or that of his wifes', how the money was going to be used, how much was raised, you know, the kind of things that most 'inquiring minds' don't want to know.

And you know damn well, that the name Favre, or his picture sells. Of course the story/video would be on the front page.

[Scott Campbell]

Come on Scott, he was at his annual fundraising golf event. We didn't hear the question he was asked, now did we?


He publically threw his GM under the bus. And you're suggesting that we give him a pass because of the way the question may, or may not have been asked by the reporter? You blame the press????

[packinpatland]

Yup.


Favre was just stating the facts. Are they disputable?

[Scott Campbell]

Yup.


Favre was just stating the facts. Are they disputable?


If a husband announces at a Mother's Day party that his wife is now tipping the scales at over 300lbs., he could be factually correct. I wonder if having the facts straight will save him from her death stare.

This is purely about tact and business/league etiquette.

But nice try at changing the criteria.

[packinpatland]

Your analogy was very good, actally very good. :lol:
:lol:

[MadtownPacker]

He publically threw his GM under the bus. And you're suggesting that we give him a pass because of the way the question may, or may not have been asked by the reporter? You blame the press????Him throwing TT under the bus means little to me. If you vatos are gonna point out how Favre is not bigger then the team then the same needs to apply to TT.

I am still on Thompson's bandwagon so I hope this all blows over soon.

Can we all just blame moss? :D

[Scott Campbell]

Him throwing TT under the bus means little to me.


How did we all react to Peyton Manning throwing his O-Line under the bus after their playoff loss to Pittsburgh 2 years ago?

How would you react if Ted held a press conference saying "how dissapointed he was that we didn't score there" after Brett threw an interception on first and goal in a crucial portion of a game?

You don't publically throw your teammates under the bus. That standard shoud apply to Ted, Brett and anyone else who is a part of a team anywhere.

[retailguy]

Can we all just blame moss? :D

Nope. Sorry. Moss did what he had to do to get his deal, and THEN, clammed up, EXACTLY as he should have done.

Sorry, this one is on Favre, for complaining, and Thompson for "sitting on his hands". Again, I reiterate, I'm glad he did sit on his hands, I did not want Moss on this team, but the media firestorm is a result of those two, not Moss.

Favre was at his GOLF TOURNAMENT. He could have refused comment on FOOTBALL issues, but didn't. He's responsible for that. He could have diffused his "annual retirement talk" in 2001 by committing to "X" number of seasons if he was healthy, but didn't. He's responsible for that.

Ted Thompson has a responsibility to rebuild this roster as he sees fit. However, he ALSO has a responsibility to figure out what players to put on the field to be as competitive as he can, and to win as many games as he can NOW. Considering that this a publicly owned team, he also OWES concise and accurate explanations to the fans, many of whom own stock in the team. By many accounts and beliefs (including mine, and i AM a stockholder) this has not happened.

Thompson and his "veil of secrecy" creates the firestorm as well. Whether he has an ego, or not, is largely unproven, but I have to say it is reasonable to think he's got one. It's also pretty damn clear he believes in his plan, and many here don't, including to an extent Brett Favre.

I haven't weighed in very much over the past few days, but have enjoyed reading all the opinions. If I had more time, I'd post comments from two weeks ago, and then comments from the past few days on a few staunch Ted Thompson supporters... It would be HILARIOUS to see all the flip-flopping going on. For heavens sake, get some consistency.... :P

That all being said, Ted has crafted a position where his team better win, and better overachieve. If it doesn't win, he's in trouble, and my guess, is McCarthy is the fall guy. Remember he only signed a three year deal... This is year 2... He'll be a lame duck next year without a new deal. You think he'll get one if the Pack turns out to be 3-13? Nope. Not a chance.

[Merlin]

Merlin I agree with most of your post, but this line:


His retirement talk I believe was fueled by the media.

ignores the fact that HE started it all. He gave an interview to SI/Silver in 2001 and again to King in preseason before the start of the next season.

This was not an issue because of the media flogging it (it was overcovered, certainly), it was an issue because he brought it up in the first place and then kept commenting.

Every player talks about retirement at some point. Favre's turned into a circus by the media, not by Favre.

[Merlin]

"Do I blame Favre for wanting to be traded? No, not at all. In fact I think it lends a lot of creditability to what I have speculated all along, Thompson doesn't want Favre."

I thought someone might say this. But if Thompson really didn't want Favre around, wouldn't he have jumped on this and traded Favre, claiming he wanted to honor the future Hall of Famer's wishes? It would be the perfect scenario for all you conspiracy theorists - TT gets his secret desire to be rid of Favre while pretending he didn't really want to do it, but only did so out of respect for the great QB. But TT didn't do that.

So Merlin, in my estimation the opposite of what you say is true. This whole flap actually undermines the claim of those who somehow think that what's behind all this is TT's fervent desire to get rid of Brett Favre.

No, it isn't the opposite. Thompson doesn't want to be the "guy who ran Favre out of town". He wants Favre to leave on his own. The problem? TT has been exposed.

[Merlin]

I don't want TT to act "impulsively"...

I want him to move deftly and intelligently into positions to get top flight players at positions need.

Is Meachem a pro bowl calibur WR??? I don't know, but I can guarentee you that one of the receivers out of the 1st couple of rounds will be of that calibur. It's TT's job to find that guy... It fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

Is Lynch a pro bowl calibur RB??? I don't know, but if he's rated high enough to where most teams had him going #12 to Buffalo, then TT certainly should have considered moving up to #11... it fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

TT is so rigid, that I don't ever see him moving up or down to fill needs... he's strictly a BPA, regardless of position. 6 quality DT's isn't going to score you any more TD's than 5 quality DT's will; but, I'm pretty sure they'll score fewer TD's than Meachem or Lynch.

BPA? Explain Harrell over Quinn. Explain Aaron Rodgers.

Enough said about BPA.

[Scott Campbell]

BPA? Explain Harrell over Quinn. Explain Aaron Rodgers.



The explanation is pretty simple. Ted wasn't using your draft borad.

[Scott Campbell]

Every player talks about retirement at some point.


The key phrase there is "at some point". 6 long years is not equal to "at some point". It feels like he's been talking about his damned retirement since he was in 3rd grade. Christ, I don't think MASH ran on this long.

[Merlin]

Nice to see you have no concept of BPA. My draft board? Try again. I don't have a "draft board". I personally don't care what he does after the first round. But to say that he drafts "BPA" is pure and total bullshit. San Fransisco already took a pass on Rodgers. So did what? 22 other teams? Nick Collins and Terrance Murphy would have been BPA ahead of Rodgers. That is if you use the BPA logic. Drafting a QB from a QB friendly offense, especially a Tedford QB into the WCO is a horrible decision. Taking Harrell, AN INJURED PLAYER, is not taking the BPA. Not when Quinn is on the board.

If TT used BPA, then Quinn would have been in Green and Gold for at least a bit and Rodgers would be starting for the Chicago Bears.

[wist43]

I don't want TT to act "impulsively"...

I want him to move deftly and intelligently into positions to get top flight players at positions need.

Is Meachem a pro bowl calibur WR??? I don't know, but I can guarentee you that one of the receivers out of the 1st couple of rounds will be of that calibur. It's TT's job to find that guy... It fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

Is Lynch a pro bowl calibur RB??? I don't know, but if he's rated high enough to where most teams had him going #12 to Buffalo, then TT certainly should have considered moving up to #11... it fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

TT is so rigid, that I don't ever see him moving up or down to fill needs... he's strictly a BPA, regardless of position. 6 quality DT's isn't going to score you any more TD's than 5 quality DT's will; but, I'm pretty sure they'll score fewer TD's than Meachem or Lynch.

BPA? Explain Harrell over Quinn. Explain Aaron Rodgers.

Enough said about BPA.

It's BPA according to TT...

Harrell, if he stays healthy (big IF) will be a good player; but, I also think he serves as an example of why TT will likely never be able to build a true contender, i.e. he doesn't care one wit about filling needs.

It isn't necessarily Quinn vs Harrell; it could just as easily be Harrell vs Meachem, or Harrell vs Lynch, or Bowe, or one of the Corners...

What makes Harrell the quintessential pick is that we had absolutely no need there... the pick really does nothing to improve the team in the short term - which if fine with TT.

It could be several more years b/4 we actually get a 1st round draft pick that matches up with a need... wouldn't that be a shocker???? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[Merlin]

I know where you are coming from Wist. It would be a stretch to actually draft someone who can help the offense right now. That would be asking too much. Where is Taco Wallace when you need him?

[pbmax]

Wolf's worst first round selections were reaching for need. You are only guessing that Meachem or Lynch would have panned out. This is especially dangerous with Lynch as he would have cost even more picks.

And a team that allows 4.1 avg. yards per carry cannot say it has no needs on the D line. Unless you believe the linebacking corp is even more subpar.




I don't want TT to act "impulsively"...

I want him to move deftly and intelligently into positions to get top flight players at positions need.

Is Meachem a pro bowl calibur WR??? I don't know, but I can guarentee you that one of the receivers out of the 1st couple of rounds will be of that calibur. It's TT's job to find that guy... It fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

Is Lynch a pro bowl calibur RB??? I don't know, but if he's rated high enough to where most teams had him going #12 to Buffalo, then TT certainly should have considered moving up to #11... it fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

TT is so rigid, that I don't ever see him moving up or down to fill needs... he's strictly a BPA, regardless of position. 6 quality DT's isn't going to score you any more TD's than 5 quality DT's will; but, I'm pretty sure they'll score fewer TD's than Meachem or Lynch.

BPA? Explain Harrell over Quinn. Explain Aaron Rodgers.

Enough said about BPA.

It's BPA according to TT...

Harrell, if he stays healthy (big IF) will be a good player; but, I also think he serves as an example of why TT will likely never be able to build a true contender, i.e. he doesn't care one wit about filling needs.

It isn't necessarily Quinn vs Harrell; it could just as easily be Harrell vs Meachem, or Harrell vs Lynch, or Bowe, or one of the Corners...

What makes Harrell the quintessential pick is that we had absolutely no need there... the pick really does nothing to improve the team in the short term - which if fine with TT.

It could be several more years b/4 we actually get a 1st round draft pick that matches up with a need... wouldn't that be a shocker???? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[woodbuck27]

I don't want TT to act "impulsively"...

I want him to move deftly and intelligently into positions to get top flight players at positions need.

Is Meachem a pro bowl calibur WR??? I don't know, but I can guarentee you that one of the receivers out of the 1st couple of rounds will be of that calibur. It's TT's job to find that guy... It fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

Is Lynch a pro bowl calibur RB??? I don't know, but if he's rated high enough to where most teams had him going #12 to Buffalo, then TT certainly should have considered moving up to #11... it fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

TT is so rigid, that I don't ever see him moving up or down to fill needs... he's strictly a BPA, regardless of position. 6 quality DT's isn't going to score you any more TD's than 5 quality DT's will; but, I'm pretty sure they'll score fewer TD's than Meachem or Lynch.

BPA? Explain Harrell over Quinn. Explain Aaron Rodgers.

Enough said about BPA.

BPA on Ted's board.

Now . . . that makes all the difference.

[mraynrand]

What makes Harrell the quintessential pick is that we had absolutely no need there... the pick really does nothing to improve the team in the short term - which if fine with TT.

Achh. You keep saying this - and from the guy who always reminds us of how small and fast the GB LBs are. Why do you think they drafted a big DT? To protect their LBs (remember, Wist, GB drafts small fast LBs - gee, who tells us this OVER AND OVER AND OVER) and to be able to move Jenkins out to end. Both of those guys were signed in the offseason, indicating they'll be around for a long time. Without Harrell, they might be much more ineffective. I disagree with your assessment - they needed a big DT. The Packers were in 3rd and short far too often last year SPECIFICALLY because they had trouble stopping the run on 1st and 2nd down. Did you notice that Chicago averaged 3-4 more possessions than the rest of the league on offense last year. The reason was their defense got off the field faster. I think the pick is going to be a major upgrade.

[mraynrand]

BPA is horse shit. Do you think that if the BPA was a corner every time the Packers were up to pick that they'd draft 10-12 corners? Use your heads people. No team drafts strictly by BPA. They draft the BPA that they think they need and that fills out their roster

[wist43]

What makes Harrell the quintessential pick is that we had absolutely no need there... the pick really does nothing to improve the team in the short term - which if fine with TT.

Achh. You keep saying this - and from the guy who always reminds us of how small and fast the GB LBs are. Why do you think they drafted a big DT? To protect their LBs (remember, Wist, GB drafts small fast LBs - gee, who tells us this OVER AND OVER AND OVER) and to be able to move Jenkins out to end. Both of those guys were signed in the offseason, indicating they'll be around for a long time. Without Harrell, they might be much more ineffective. I disagree with your assessment - they needed a big DT. The Packers were in 3rd and short far too often last year SPECIFICALLY because they had trouble stopping the run on 1st and 2nd down. Did you notice that Chicago averaged 3-4 more possessions than the rest of the league on offense last year. The reason was their defense got off the field faster. I think the pick is going to be a major upgrade.

I've said all along that I think Harrell can be a damn good player, and have readily acknowledged that he instantly becomes our best DT. Also, I would almost always take a blue chip DT ahead of a blue chipper at another position.

That said, the difference between Harrell and Williams is miniscule compared to the difference between Ruvell Martin and Robert Meachem; or, the difference between Vernand Morency and Marshawn Lynch.

Harrell is just as big a risk (maybe more b/c of his injury history), as is Lynch or Meachem... hell, every draft pick is a risk - you simply never know what you're going to get with these kids.

As for your contention about BPA... as ridiculous as it seems, I'm not so sure that TT would not, in fact, draft 15 CB's if a CB were the highest rated player on his board when his turn came to pick.

I heard a news conference he gave a couple of weeks ago where he talked about BPA vs need, and he actually said "you can't draft 8 QB's"... but, he would almost always take the BPA on his board regardless of position.

No one will ever convince me that there isn't a comparable player available at a position of need... what if Meachem turns out to be the pro bowler, and Harrell cashes his checks from the trainers room??? TT will be looking for a job at that point I'd imagine.

At some point you have to acknowledge need, and you have to make intelligent decisions in going about finding impact players to fill those needs.

Wolfe made some mistakes trying to fill needs... and when he reached for a player I was very critical of him. At the same time, he won us a SB by going out and being aggressive in filling the needs he had.

As I've pointed out, Wolfe's entire starting DL in the SB was made up of FA's... he acquired the best player on his team via trade (Favre - would TT ever do that??? Of course not), etc...

[Bretsky]

Wolf's worst first round selections were reaching for need. You are only guessing that Meachem or Lynch would have panned out. This is especially dangerous with Lynch as he would have cost even more picks.

And a team that allows 4.1 avg. yards per carry cannot say it has no needs on the D line. Unless you believe the linebacking corp is even more subpar.




I don't want TT to act "impulsively"...

I want him to move deftly and intelligently into positions to get top flight players at positions need.

Is Meachem a pro bowl calibur WR??? I don't know, but I can guarentee you that one of the receivers out of the 1st couple of rounds will be of that calibur. It's TT's job to find that guy... It fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

Is Lynch a pro bowl calibur RB??? I don't know, but if he's rated high enough to where most teams had him going #12 to Buffalo, then TT certainly should have considered moving up to #11... it fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

TT is so rigid, that I don't ever see him moving up or down to fill needs... he's strictly a BPA, regardless of position. 6 quality DT's isn't going to score you any more TD's than 5 quality DT's will; but, I'm pretty sure they'll score fewer TD's than Meachem or Lynch.

BPA? Explain Harrell over Quinn. Explain Aaron Rodgers.

Enough said about BPA.

It's BPA according to TT...

Harrell, if he stays healthy (big IF) will be a good player; but, I also think he serves as an example of why TT will likely never be able to build a true contender, i.e. he doesn't care one wit about filling needs.

It isn't necessarily Quinn vs Harrell; it could just as easily be Harrell vs Meachem, or Harrell vs Lynch, or Bowe, or one of the Corners...

What makes Harrell the quintessential pick is that we had absolutely no need there... the pick really does nothing to improve the team in the short term - which if fine with TT.

It could be several more years b/4 we actually get a 1st round draft pick that matches up with a need... wouldn't that be a shocker???? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


Was our run defense that bad after replacing KGB ?

[Scott Campbell]

As for your contention about BPA... as ridiculous as it seems, I'm not so sure that TT would not, in fact, draft 15 CB's if a CB were the highest rated player on his board when his turn came to pick.


I'm afraid that's too ridiculous for me to buy.

[Scott Campbell]

BPA is horse shit. Do you think that if the BPA was a corner every time the Packers were up to pick that they'd draft 10-12 corners? Use your heads people. No team drafts strictly by BPA. They draft the BPA that they think they need and that fills out their roster


Compare our need areas to our draft picks. They align almost perfectly.

[Merlin]

Um, what draft are you watching? We haven't drafted anyone based on "need", it's always BPA.Ask Ted he will tell you.

[MadtownPacker]

Him throwing TT under the bus means little to me.


How did we all react to Peyton Manning throwing his O-Line under the bus after their playoff loss to Pittsburgh 2 years ago?

How would you react if Ted held a press conference saying "how dissapointed he was that we didn't score there" after Brett threw an interception on first and goal in a crucial portion of a game?

You don't publically throw your teammates under the bus. That standard shoud apply to Ted, Brett and anyone else who is a part of a team anywhere.
I think Manning dissing his OL wasnt cool cuz if he could throw on the run worth a damn he would help them out. Those are the guys he goes to battle with so I didnt agree.

TT on the otherhand is Favre's boss and honestly, if you could take a shot at your boss without getting shitcanned you probably would.

BTW - I like the idea of someone calling out Favre's mistakes, which is why I like McCarthy.

[Joemailman]

What makes Harrell the quintessential pick is that we had absolutely no need there... the pick really does nothing to improve the team in the short term - which if fine with TT.

Achh. You keep saying this - and from the guy who always reminds us of how small and fast the GB LBs are. Why do you think they drafted a big DT? To protect their LBs (remember, Wist, GB drafts small fast LBs - gee, who tells us this OVER AND OVER AND OVER) and to be able to move Jenkins out to end. Both of those guys were signed in the offseason, indicating they'll be around for a long time. Without Harrell, they might be much more ineffective. I disagree with your assessment - they needed a big DT. The Packers were in 3rd and short far too often last year SPECIFICALLY because they had trouble stopping the run on 1st and 2nd down. Did you notice that Chicago averaged 3-4 more possessions than the rest of the league on offense last year. The reason was their defense got off the field faster. I think the pick is going to be a major upgrade.

I've said all along that I think Harrell can be a damn good player, and have readily acknowledged that he instantly becomes our best DT. Also, I would almost always take a blue chip DT ahead of a blue chipper at another position.

That said, the difference between Harrell and Williams is miniscule compared to the difference between Ruvell Martin and Robert Meachem; or, the difference between Vernand Morency and Marshawn Lynch.

The difference between Harrell and Williams will not be miniscule when it comes to tying up blockers at the line of scrimmage. Many may not see much difference, but I suspect Hawk and Barnett will be able to tell the difference. I believe Harrell will be a major upgrade against the run.

Also, the Packers need at least 3 good DT's to do what they want to do defensively. Without the drafting of Harrell, the 3rd DT would have been Johnny Jolly or Colin Cole. Having Williams as the #3 is also a major upgrade. With this move, TT has improved the starting quality, as well as the depth of the defensive line.

[wist43]

I suspect that Jolly would have been the #3 tackle... he's got talent and upside.

As I've said, DT is a critical position, and I really don't mind taking a guy at that position if he's a true difference maker.

The Packers said they had Harrell rated above Okoye, and I wouldn't have minded taking Okoye at 16 b/c of his upside... but, the Harrell pick threw everyone for loop. Harrell was rated as a lower end 1st round pick, so he's not a huge reach, and some think he may turn out to be the best DT in this draft; but, given his injury history, you've got to wonder if he'll hold up.

And then there are all of those needs... Like I said, maybe one of these years need will meet up with BPA... and, TT and his happy followers will skip off into the sunset... 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

[Fritz]

"Do I blame Favre for wanting to be traded? No, not at all. In fact I think it lends a lot of creditability to what I have speculated all along, Thompson doesn't want Favre."

I thought someone might say this. But if Thompson really didn't want Favre around, wouldn't he have jumped on this and traded Favre, claiming he wanted to honor the future Hall of Famer's wishes? It would be the perfect scenario for all you conspiracy theorists - TT gets his secret desire to be rid of Favre while pretending he didn't really want to do it, but only did so out of respect for the great QB. But TT didn't do that.

So Merlin, in my estimation the opposite of what you say is true. This whole flap actually undermines the claim of those who somehow think that what's behind all this is TT's fervent desire to get rid of Brett Favre.

No, it isn't the opposite. Thompson doesn't want to be the "guy who ran Favre out of town". He wants Favre to leave on his own. The problem? TT has been exposed.

Well, I disagree Merlin. Had Farve actually asked for a trade, it would have been TT doing the "right thing" by honoring the future HOF's request. This way it would have been TT NOT running Favre out of town, but simply acceding to Favre's request.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Funny how Jolly now compares to Harrell because one site said that Harrell reminds them of Jolly. Jolly, even if healthy, didn't come close to this guy as a prospect. If he did, the Packers couldn't have gotten him in the 6th round. Nothing we saw last year makes me think Jolly is the real deal. Hell, we barely saw the guy. We know nothing about the guy.

[pbmax]

Bretsky, the most honest answer is probably not. But with only four games to go on, I'm not sure.

The problem with those four games is that two were against teams struggling to run (Vikings and Lions I think) and one that was just trying to keep healthy (Bears, which meant they ran a lot).

If you look at the raw data over those for non-KGB games, the average is close (4.0 I believe) but that also included 2 huge runs by Gore against San Fran before Jenkins entered.


[Was our run defense that bad after replacing KGB ?

[RashanGary]

I think Jolly stands a better chance to become good than Cole. Cole is what he is and that is pretty crappy. Jolly was a rookie at a position that requires a lot of strength. It's hard for rookie DT's to play right away.

Even if Jolly passes Cole and becomes a pretty good DT, it's still nice to have 4 good ones. Every line has 3 starting DT's or 3 guys who play starter minutes. The top 3 will play most snaps when everyone is healthy. Fact is, DT rotations are rarely healhty all year long so IF Jolly steps up he'll still be used quite a bit.

Also, in the redzone we also have Harrell and Corey Williams who can play DE. We could reasonably go with Harrell, Jolly, Pickett, Williams with a blitzing LB just in case it is a pass so they don't have all day.

If you consider the difference between Jolly and Cole playing 65% of the DT snaps and Harrell, you get impact where you had mediocrity. If you consider how much better we are with one common injury, you get impact instead of a glaring hole. If you consider having a guy that you think is a true stud in place of a guy who you think is a big drop off at a needed position then I think you made a pretty good decision at the end of the day.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Cole isn't that bad. There are worse guys you can have in a rotation. It's not like they are counting on him to play starter's minutes. He's had his moments.

[pbmax]

My concern with Cole is that while he seems to have a nose for the ball and can move, he regularly gets bulldozed by the double-teams.

That;s one of the reasons I was happy about the emergence of Williams at the end of last year. He seemed far stouter against the double-team.


Cole isn't that bad. There are worse guys you can have in a rotation. It's not like they are counting on him to play starter's minutes. He's had his moments.

[Merlin]

"Do I blame Favre for wanting to be traded? No, not at all. In fact I think it lends a lot of creditability to what I have speculated all along, Thompson doesn't want Favre."

I thought someone might say this. But if Thompson really didn't want Favre around, wouldn't he have jumped on this and traded Favre, claiming he wanted to honor the future Hall of Famer's wishes? It would be the perfect scenario for all you conspiracy theorists - TT gets his secret desire to be rid of Favre while pretending he didn't really want to do it, but only did so out of respect for the great QB. But TT didn't do that.

So Merlin, in my estimation the opposite of what you say is true. This whole flap actually undermines the claim of those who somehow think that what's behind all this is TT's fervent desire to get rid of Brett Favre.

No, it isn't the opposite. Thompson doesn't want to be the "guy who ran Favre out of town". He wants Favre to leave on his own. The problem? TT has been exposed.

Well, I disagree Merlin. Had Favre actually asked for a trade, it would have been TT doing the "right thing" by honoring the future HOF's request. This way it would have been TT NOT running Favre out of town, but simply acceding to Favre's request.

I wish I could agree with you but I don't believe for one second that TT will let anyone tell him how to run the Packers. He would hang onto him by saying how much he is wanted, blah blah blah. If he did agree to a trade, he would have asked for too much to make a trade possible thus keeping him in Green Bay and forcing retirement.

[woodbuck27]

Merlin, not sure where all the thoughts of TT's ego are founded. He simply has a plan and a method which he believes so strongly in that he doesn't waver from it.

Was Thompson known as an egomaniac in Seattle? Does he seek out attention as the Packer's GM? The guy is quiet and confident - does that automatically suggest arrogance??

TT has been a GM in the NFL and as our current GM I expect him to have the skills and demeanor to rebuild this organization.

In this day and age, NFL teams are like the tide with high points and low points. Given the shape of our roster due to age and lack of depth I see merit in Thompson's approach. Whether the players drafted are poor, average or solid starters still remains to be seen in just TT's third year as GM.

Would I rather have an impulsive GM like Sherman or calulate the odds and show no emotion poker player like TT as a GM? Obviously based on my defense of TT I'm for the latter.

The whole odd thing about all these recent postings is that I really don't care for TT the person. I rue the day I won't get to see Brett take the snaps under center for the Packers. But as a GM I feel that TT is doing what he believes as right for the organization and I have to believe that he has all the skills and tools to make those decisions that I as a fan can't.

Bottom line, I don't believe ego is what makes TT tick. Confidence about a plan he believes in (to his success or failure) does.

Nice post.

TT has a one pronged approach to re-building at the present and it does appear as if he is concentrating on 'D' first andn as a general approach I can't disagree with that.

He is re-tooling our OL and DL and that is as must be expected.

He doesn't put much hope in FAcy and we really don't have alot that is tradeable.

Yet my bitch on him comes fr. the way he allowed our 'O' to be further weakened this off season, with no proactive approach to making mends there.

He clearly failed our team in that regard. Drafting players on 'O' just doesn't answer the need for 2007. How long does it take for the best WR's drafted to develop? For drafted RB's and TE's? Check that out.

Thus Brett Favre is justifiably IMO more than annoyed.

If any members here would be honest and place themselves in Favre's place. Would you be happy with TT's efforts this off season?

All you who may take the stance that Favre should simply report and take another $12 million and shut his trap are certainly ignorant of what he is as a man and a PRO.

[Spaulding]

Thanks Woodbuck. I agree with you in that I don't blame Favre one bit for being frustrated by TT's FA signings. His draft from year in regards to Jackson, Jones, Clowney is still unknown and taking a WR in the first round still likely wouldn't have helped the team much this year due the learning curve.

I do have a problem with Favre though in complaining to the media. As the leader of the Packer I expect more from him. Guess that comes from my military background but you lead by example and him bitching to the media is not the answer.

I want to see Brett play for the Packers this year and longer if things go well. I would hate to see him in another uniform. He is one of the best things to happen to the Packers. I also can swallow the baggage that comes with his mouth but I will never condone it.

[pbmax]

Woodbuck, if I was Favre I would not be happy either. Its a natural reaction and an easily understandable one. His timetable is not the same as T2's.

But public complaining about it does not make the situation any better. I think we had our first glimpse of this after the 2005 season, when Favre waited a significant period of time before committing to next season.

At the time, it was thought that the Charles Woodson signing might have been a reaction to the pressure. But subsequent moves seem to suggest that T2 isn't moving based upon pressure from his QB.

So Brett and the Team need to make a decision. Is he willing to be on board the team's program as run by Thompson or does he wish to change team's and have a quicker chance to win elsewhere?

Because to delay that decision and conduct the yearly drama distracts from the team. And if the Pack do improve and attmept to lure more FAs, that atmosphere isn't going to help.

The other thing that could be going on, which would be infinitely sadder, is that neither side wants to be the bad guy and go on record as pro-Favre trade. Just waiting for the other side to blink and take the heat.




Nice post.

TT has a one pronged approach to re-building at the present and it does appear as if he is concentrating on 'D' first andn as a general approach I can't disagree with that.

He is re-tooling our OL and DL and that is as must be expected.

He doesn't put much hope in FAcy and we really don't have alot that is tradeable.

Yet my bitch on him comes fr. the way he allowed our 'O' to be further weakened this off season, with no proactive approach to making mends there.

He clearly failed our team in that regard. Drafting players on 'O' just doesn't answer the need for 2007. How long does it take for the best WR's drafted to develop? For drafted RB's and TE's? Check that out.

Thus Brett Favre is justifiably IMO more than annoyed.

If any members here would be honest and place themselves in Favre's place. Would you be happy with TT's efforts this off season?

All you who may take the stance that Favre should simply report and take another $12 million and shut his trap are certainly ignorant of what he is as a man and a PRO.