Packers WR's vs Other Teams

[Packgator]

The Favre news has given the national media reason to talk about the Packers all week long. They (Dan Patrick on ESPN radio being one of the worst) make it sound like Brett has nothing but a bunch of CFL rejects to throw the ball to.

The Packers are one of four NFC teams to have a current all-pro at WR. They are also one of two teams in the entire league to have a WR named to the first team "all rookie team" last year. A lot of teams would love to have those "credentials" in their top two receivers.

But that's not the perception towards the Packers. And it's not just the national media. Even some Packer fans feel the same way towards the WR's. If the situation is so bad you would think the Packers would be glad to trade their top five WR's to most other teams for their top five. Yet, when you take a look it's hard to come up with many teams you would make that trade with.

So here's the questions........

What NFC teams would you make that deal with? (Packers top 5 WR's straight up for theirs with no salary cap considerations).

Why stop there.......

What teams in the entire league would you make that deal with?

This time of year you have to project the top five. But all the talk makes it sound like the Packers would love to have what most teams already have. The reality may actually be quite different.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Well, to be fair, none of the WRs after those two have shown they can even be a good #3 receiver yet. Also, Jennings got injured last year, so at this point we don't know if he's injury prone or it was a fluke thing. Also, the TEs stink and the RBs are a question mark. I can see why people think that the Packers are weak at the skill positions. They have one guy (Donald Driver) who is close to being a guaranteed stud. Still, there is talent at RB and WR, so not all hope is lost.

[retailguy]

Truthfully there are a LOT of team that are in better shape than the Packers.

Lions - Calvin Johnson, Roy Williams, Mike Furrey
Cardinals - Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Bryant Johnson


Which would you rather have? Really, does the 4th & 5th WR make that much difference? Seems that the top 3 are really the ones that matter.

Packers have a "weakness" right now. Perhaps one of the young guys steps up and it becomes a strength. We'll see. There are sure enough young guys that ONE ought to be able to step up...

[PackerBlues]

I think you can also speculate, that when these people talk about Favre not having anyone to throw to, you can add TE and RB to the list. Bubba does not seem to have the ability to get open anymore, and even when he does, he does not have the hands he used to either. At running back, I think people got spoiled by Green's ability to catch the ball as well as run with it. In all honesty, you should not think of the loss of Green as simply losing a a running back that was getting old........he was made even more of a weapon by his ability to catch the ball. The same could actually be said about Henderson, as all of his yardage in the last few years came from receptions.

Look at what was lost here. David Martin signed with Miami for a heck of a lot more than Thompson was going to spend on him, and I can understand that. The same goes for Green. What you really need to look at here though, more than anything else, is the fact that Martin, Green, and Henderson knew our system, they had the timing down with Favre. Anyone brought in to replace these guys is going to have to learn the routes, the system, and get their timing down. That simply is not something that will come right away, mid season at best probably. Even then, there will be routes that are going to be ran wrong, and mistakes will be made now and then.

I cannot in all honesty say for a fact that our offense is going to be worse than last year, but you and I both know, it was going to take an aweful lot to make it better than last year, even before the loss of Martin, Green, and Henderson.
All any of us can do is kick back, relax and do our best to trust Thompson.

[Fritz]

It really hinges on how Jennings does this year, and whether Jones can learn enough to be an effective #3. If Jennings stays healthy and develops, and Jones can learn enough to play the #3 spot, then the Packers will be in reasonable shape. I wouldn't swap receivers with either the Queens or the Bears. But the Lions....well, I'd hate to give up DD, but Johnson and Williams, two young guys, would be tempting.

[The Leaper]

Well, what have we added in the offseason to an offense that only scored 16 TDs on 49 trips to the end zone last year?

That is PUTRID, no matter what "talent" you supposedly have or don't have. It was second worst in the NFL...so, yeah, almost CFL caliber.

And let's not forget we are one Donald Driver injury away from being WORSE than a CFL squad.

[PackerBlues]

And let's not forget we are one Donald Driver injury away from being WORSE than a CFL squad.


Owww!!! Knock on wood, knock on wood!!!!!!!!! :bang:

(we were also one FA away from having an "intimidating" WR core, if said FA has a kick ass year in NE, Ted may want to quietly pack his bags and leave town fast....... unless he likes Tar and Feathers.)

[The Leaper]

What NFC teams would you make that deal with? (Packers top 5 WR's straight up for theirs with no salary cap considerations).

Why stop there.......

What teams in the entire league would you make that deal with?

This time of year you have to project the top five. But all the talk makes it sound like the Packers would love to have what most teams already have. The reality may actually be quite different.

I would trade top 5 WRs with nearly ANY team in the NFL.

Let's be real here. Driver is fabulous, but is getting to the point where age will have a negative effect. He has 2-3 good years left. Jennings is a solid prospect, but he's not a playmaker. No one else on the roster has proven anything on the field yet.

I don't have time to go 5 deep on every roster and break it down...but I would guess that there are at least 24 of 32 teams that I would trade straight up for, and the only reason the number isn't higher is Driver. Take the #1 WR out of the equation, and Green Bay may have the most unproven group of WRs in the NFL.

That doesn't mean they will turn out to be crap. I'm hoping Jones and Clowney become studs. I'm not going to bet on it though.

[Freak Out]

We have WRs playing other than DD? Thats a shocker. The Packers don't know what they have let alone posters on PackerRats. I"m crossing my fingers just like TT that someone else shows up this year.

[Packnut]

Well, we have no TE. I hope Bubba makes me eat those words, but let's be honest. If it was'nt for the couple of good RZ seasons, Bubba is and has been a failure. He does'nt run down the middle and his YAC is disgusting. How many times have we seen a small DB take Bubba's legs out from under him?

I agree with the other comments about Jennings. He is the whole key to our passing offense. Jones and Clowney should contribute a little to the #3 spot. Jackson has good hands out of the backfield and should at least be a 3rd down back.

It's not as bad as the national media states and not as good as the TT crowd says. Based on what we have right now and what we've seen, as a whole our receiving corps is below avg. However, it does have potential.

Still, let's say Jennings plays like he did the first 6 or 7 games and DD is is usual brilliant self. That still means someone has to step up to #3 for us to improve. We have no TE and that is gonna hurt............

[4and12to12and4]

What NFC teams would you make that deal with? (Packers top 5 WR's straight up for theirs with no salary cap considerations).

Why stop there.......

What teams in the entire league would you make that deal with?

This time of year you have to project the top five. But all the talk makes it sound like the Packers would love to have what most teams already have. The reality may actually be quite different.

I would trade top 5 WRs with nearly ANY team in the NFL.

Let's be real here. Driver is fabulous, but is getting to the point where age will have a negative effect. He has 2-3 good years left. Jennings is a solid prospect, but he's not a playmaker. No one else on the roster has proven anything on the field yet.

I don't have time to go 5 deep on every roster and break it down...but I would guess that there are at least 24 of 32 teams that I would trade straight up for, and the only reason the number isn't higher is Driver. Take the #1 WR out of the equation, and Green Bay may have the most unproven group of WRs in the NFL.

That doesn't mean they will turn out to be crap. I'm hoping Jones and Clowney become studs. I'm not going to bet on it though.


You had time to read this thread and many others, and you had time to post a reply to this thread, so to say you don't have time to give details on which 24 teams have better receivers is a cop out. Teh Cardinals, Lions, maybe Patriots now, Colts are about the only SURE teams with bwtter talent at that position. This is a great thread, and this is what I've been saying since the offseason began. We are not as weak as most here think we are. Holiday and Ruvell are as good as almost every 2nd WR on all the other teams I didn't mention. And they are our 3rd and 4th, maybe, right now. Jennings ISNT prone to injury, check his collegiate career. NONE. So, it probably was a fluke. His toughness and lack of injuries as a college player were the strengths we all liked about him before he did get injured. He could've been in the running for rookie of the year before that happened, plus the NFL season is much longer and harder than what he ever had to face in his career, so he probably ran out of gas, but now he has a year under his belt, and Favre should be more comfortable with him timing wise, he obviously has trust in him, he threw to him a lot, before the injury. Morency has good enough hands and quickness to replace Green IF given the chance. The only thing I agree with most here on is our TE situation. We need an upgrade there. But as far as receivers go, we will be fine. Not to mention if KRob gets into the picture. He has probowl type talent, speed, quickness, great hands, etc..

[The Leaper]

You had time to read this thread and many others, and you had time to post a reply to this thread, so to say you don't have time to give details on which 24 teams have better receivers is a cop out.

You tell me that the Cardinals, Lions, Colts and Pats are the only SURE TEAMS with better talent at WR...but feel free to chide me for not taking an hour to give an in depth analysis on every NFL team?

What evidence do you have that Holiday and Ruvell are as good as the #2 WR on just about any NFL team? Let's see some stats, Mr Cop Out.

What evidence do you have that Jennings will ever be a consistent, reliable starting WR in the NFL? He played OK as a rookie on a team that had no other options at WR...and did not hold up the entire year. His college career has no validity in regard to how he'll hold up in the NFL...the game is vastly different between those two levels. Besides, even you claim it "probably" was a fluke. Exactly my point. No one knows...which is the truth about nearly everyone on this offensive roster at present.

IF all of your IFS become reality, Green Bay will be in great shape. Of course, you can throw out a bunch of IFS for all 32 NFL teams and the same scenario would apply. So your point means jack schnit.

[The Leaper]

Still, let's say Jennings plays like he did the first 6 or 7 games and DD is is usual brilliant self. That still means someone has to step up to #3 for us to improve. We have no TE and that is gonna hurt............

We would still suck even in that scenario IMO.

Neither Driver or Jennings is much of a factor in the red zone. Driver did play great all of last year...and Jennings played his best for about half. We still went 16-for-49 in the red zone.

It makes zero sense for Thompson to just sit on his ass and hope that some rookie suddenly develops out of thin air. He needed to make something happen in terms of a reliable veteran via trade or something.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Holiday and Ruvell are as good as almost every 2nd WR on all the other teams I didn't mention.

You REALLY lost me here.

[Joemailman]

What happened to Jennings last year is typical of rookie WR's in the NFL. His body didn't hold up to the rigors of the NFL schedule. The Packers have had him on an off-season conditioning program to correct that. When Jennings was healthy however, he was quite good, and more of a playmaker than most of us thought. There is little reason to think he can't manage 55-70 catches this season, which would put him in solid #2 territory.

Most of the #3 WR's in the league caught somewhere between 20-35 passes last season. Martin's 21 were 3rd on the Packers last year, but he was not the #3 guy for much of the season. Most of his catches came in December, so there is some reason to hope he is still progressing. For all practical purposes, he was a rookie last year too. Add in Carlyle Holiday, who Favre had some good comments about, plus the 2 rookies, and this has a chance to be a pretty good group. I think the Packers have far greater concerns other than the situation at Wide Receiver.

[Zool]

Holiday and Ruvell are as good as almost every 2nd WR on all the other teams I didn't mention.

You REALLY lost me here.Yeah, ouch. I'm a big fan of Carlyle and My Favorite Martin, but this is way over the top. Also I think I might just throw the Bengals in there? They seem to be OK at WR. Maybe Dallas too, even though TO is an asshat.

In case anyone is wondering, Ashley Lelie and Arnaz Battle are listed 1-2 for the 49ers. Do you think their fans wanted a WR in the draft?

[The Leaper]

What happened to Jennings last year is typical of rookie WR's in the NFL. His body didn't hold up to the rigors of the NFL schedule. The Packers have had him on an off-season conditioning program to correct that. When Jennings was healthy however, he was quite good, and more of a playmaker than most of us thought. There is little reason to think he can't manage 55-70 catches this season, which would put him in solid #2 territory.

I would mostly agree with that.

However, I'm not sure I see Jennings as a playmaker. He did have one big play against Detroit...but that was more about Driver's incredible blocking than Jenning's playmaking capacity. Take away that one 75 yard TD catch...and Jennings had 44 catches (12.7 avg) and 2 TDs. I could care less about the number of catches. Nearly ANYONE can get 50-70 catches in a full season at Green Bay when Favre is throwing 550+ passes in a season.

Granted, I like Jennings. I think he has a future as a starter in the NFL. I just don't think he can be considered a reliable starter yet. In a perfect world, he'd still be a #3 WR for one more year...and we'd have a capable veteran as our #2 for 2007.

[The Leaper]

In case anyone is wondering, Ashley Lelie and Arnaz Battle are listed 1-2 for the 49ers. Do you think their fans wanted a WR in the draft?

Well, they do have a pretty good young TE prospect in V Davis. They also have a battle ram for a RB who is a reliable playmaker. They certainly could use some help at WR though. That would be one of the few teams that I would easily balk at trading WRs with.

[Packgator]

What NFC teams would you make that deal with? (Packers top 5 WR's straight up for theirs with no salary cap considerations).

Why stop there.......

What teams in the entire league would you make that deal with?

This time of year you have to project the top five. But all the talk makes it sound like the Packers would love to have what most teams already have. The reality may actually be quite different.

I would trade top 5 WRs with nearly ANY team in the NFL

I don't have time to go 5 deep on every roster and break it down...but I would guess that there are at least 24 of 32 teams that I would trade straight up for

The 4th and 5th receivers would be a small part when considering such a deal. You are saying you would make the trade with "at least" 24 teams right now. Well lets look at just the NFC........

Tampa.............NO
Atlanta.............NO
New Orleans......NO
Carolina............NO (???)

Dallas...............NO (???)
Giants...............NO
Philly................NO
Wash................NO (???)

Chicago.............NO
Minn.................NO
Detroit..............YES

San Fran...........NO
Seattle.............NO
Arizona.............YES
St. Louis...........?? (???)

There are 9 NO's (maybe 13) right there and it's only half the league. Which of the NO's above would you trade with 5 for 5 right now if you had to make the deal today?

[Packgator]

Truthfully there are a LOT of team that are in better shape than the Packers.

Lions - Calvin Johnson, Roy Williams, Mike Furrey
Cardinals - Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Bryant Johnson


Which would you rather have? Really, does the 4th & 5th WR make that much difference? Seems that the top 3 are really the ones that matter.

That is two teams that I think everyone would agree with. But a lot? That's kind of my point. Everyone automatically thinks the Packers are weak at WR. When you start to look at each team there aren't a lot you would trade even up 5 for 5 right now. Or are there?

[BallHawk]

You bring up a great point PackGator. Definitely I would like AZ or DET, but outside of that I don't see any team that makes me really want to say "Man, I wish I had them."

So does this mean we have, arguably, a top 10 receiving core?

[The Leaper]

That is two teams that I think everyone would agree with. But a lot? That's kind of my point. Everyone automatically thinks the Packers are weak at WR. When you start to look at each team there aren't a lot you would trade even up 5 for 5 right now. Or are there?

It is a good question, but one that would take hours to research. In other words, your question isn't likely to get an logical answer anytime soon.

If I were looking at the Packers, I would say this is the value to assign to current players (10 being CFL caliber, 30 being borderline NFL caliber, 50 being average NFL caliber, 70 being reliable NFL starting caliber, 90 being Pro Bowl caliber)

Driver 85/50=135 - he's an elite WR now, but has only average future potential due to his age.
Jennings 55/70=125 - he's slightly better than average now, and has a solid potential going forward.
Ferguson 40/40=80 - yuck.
Jones (rookie)/60 - gets a 60 potential rating based on draft position, impossible to quantify current ability.
Clowney (rookie)/50 - gets a 50 potential rating based on draft position, impossible to quantify current ability.

I can do this in 5 minutes with Green Bay because I follow them closely. I can probably also do it rather quickly for other NFC North teams and several other elite AFC/NFC teams. Other than that, it would take 15-20 minutes a team to break everything down.

You probably also need to throw the top TE in there as well...since having a great TE can allow a team to maintain a lesser group of WRs. That's another yuck spot for Green Bay.

[4and12to12and4]

What NFC teams would you make that deal with? (Packers top 5 WR's straight up for theirs with no salary cap considerations).

Why stop there.......

What teams in the entire league would you make that deal with?

This time of year you have to project the top five. But all the talk makes it sound like the Packers would love to have what most teams already have. The reality may actually be quite different.

I would trade top 5 WRs with nearly ANY team in the NFL

I don't have time to go 5 deep on every roster and break it down...but I would guess that there are at least 24 of 32 teams that I would trade straight up for

The 4th and 5th receivers would be a small part when considering such a deal. You are saying you would make the trade with "at least" 24 teams right now. Well lets look at just the NFC........

Tampa.............NO
Atlanta.............NO
New Orleans......NO
Carolina............NO (???)

Dallas...............NO (???)
Giants...............NO
Philly................NO
Wash................NO (???)

Chicago.............NO
Minn.................NO
Detroit..............YES

San Fran...........NO
Seattle.............NO
Arizona.............YES
St. Louis...........?? (???)

There are 9 NO's (maybe 13) right there and it's only half the league. Which of the NO's above would you trade with 5 for 5 right now if you had to make the deal today?

Thank you. Most accurate post in this thread. Those who claim i'm way off that Ruvell and Holiday could be MANY NFL's 2nd receiver, other than about 7 teams, that is accurate. I did forget about the Bengals. But, Dallas? TO had a worse year than DD, and glenn is good, but aging, I'd rather have Jenning, Holiday, or Ruvell than him. Ruvell and Holiday are underestimated by most of you. They will, if healthy, prove you all wrong this year. They have great hands, and quickness, and Holiday has the ability to go deep and fight for the ball like Javon used to do. You'll see, if healthy, the problem MM will have at the end of preseason will be who to cut. Guaranteed.

[Charles Woodson]

What NFC teams would you make that deal with? (Packers top 5 WR's straight up for theirs with no salary cap considerations).

Why stop there.......

What teams in the entire league would you make that deal with?

This time of year you have to project the top five. But all the talk makes it sound like the Packers would love to have what most teams already have. The reality may actually be quite different.

I would trade top 5 WRs with nearly ANY team in the NFL

I don't have time to go 5 deep on every roster and break it down...but I would guess that there are at least 24 of 32 teams that I would trade straight up for

The 4th and 5th receivers would be a small part when considering such a deal. You are saying you would make the trade with "at least" 24 teams right now. Well lets look at just the NFC........

Tampa.............NO
Atlanta.............NO
New Orleans......NO
Carolina............NO (???)

Dallas...............NO (???)
Giants...............NO
Philly................NO
Wash................NO (???)

Chicago.............NO
Minn.................NO
Detroit..............YES

San Fran...........NO
Seattle.............NO
Arizona.............YES
St. Louis...........?? (???)

There are 9 NO's (maybe 13) right there and it's only half the league. Which of the NO's above would you trade with 5 for 5 right now if you had to make the deal today?

Thank you. Most accurate post in this thread. Those who claim i'm way off that Ruvell and Holiday could be MANY NFL's 2nd receiver, other than about 7 teams, that is accurate. I did forget about the Bengals. But, Dallas? TO had a worse year than DD, and glenn is good, but aging, I'd rather have Jenning, Holiday, or Ruvell than him. Ruvell and Holiday are underestimated by most of you. They will, if healthy, prove you all wrong this year. They have great hands, and quickness, and Holiday has the ability to go deep and fight for the ball like Javon used to do. You'll see, if healthy, the problem MM will have at the end of preseason will be who to cut. Guaranteed.

I am a big fan of ruvell and holiday but i belive your still wrong when you say they would be a 2nd receiver for many teams, in the nfc the only teams i belive they could do that in are
Falcons eagles bucs 49ers

[Bretsky]

Well, to be fair, none of the WRs after those two have shown they can even be a good #3 receiver yet. Also, Jennings got injured last year, so at this point we don't know if he's injury prone or it was a fluke thing. Also, the TEs stink and the RBs are a question mark. I can see why people think that the Packers are weak at the skill positions. They have one guy (Donald Driver) who is close to being a guaranteed stud. Still, there is talent at RB and WR, so not all hope is lost.


:thank: :thank: :thank: :thank: :thank: :thank: :thank:

[Bretsky]

It really hinges on how Jennings does this year, and whether Jones can learn enough to be an effective #3. If Jennings stays healthy and develops, and Jones can learn enough to play the #3 spot, then the Packers will be in reasonable shape. I wouldn't swap receivers with either the Queens or the Bears. But the Lions....well, I'd hate to give up DD, but Johnson and Williams, two young guys, would be tempting.

If If If

Truth be told if you cut out the ifs GB's receiving core would probably be in the bottom half of the NFL if you go #1-#4

[Bretsky]

What NFC teams would you make that deal with? (Packers top 5 WR's straight up for theirs with no salary cap considerations).

Why stop there.......

What teams in the entire league would you make that deal with?

This time of year you have to project the top five. But all the talk makes it sound like the Packers would love to have what most teams already have. The reality may actually be quite different.

I would trade top 5 WRs with nearly ANY team in the NFL.

Let's be real here. Driver is fabulous, but is getting to the point where age will have a negative effect. He has 2-3 good years left. Jennings is a solid prospect, but he's not a playmaker. No one else on the roster has proven anything on the field yet.

I don't have time to go 5 deep on every roster and break it down...but I would guess that there are at least 24 of 32 teams that I would trade straight up for, and the only reason the number isn't higher is Driver. Take the #1 WR out of the equation, and Green Bay may have the most unproven group of WRs in the NFL.

That doesn't mean they will turn out to be crap. I'm hoping Jones and Clowney become studs. I'm not going to bet on it though.


:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :thank: :thank: :thank: :thank: :thank:

[Bretsky]

""""Holiday and Ruvell are as good as almost every 2nd WR""""


:roll:

If those guys are starters then this team has absolutely no weaknesses.
Both have marginal NFL talent; Ted Thompson I'm sure would agree or he wouldn't have drafted a WR in round 3 and 5.

[Bretsky]

What NFC teams would you make that deal with? (Packers top 5 WR's straight up for theirs with no salary cap considerations).

Why stop there.......

What teams in the entire league would you make that deal with?

This time of year you have to project the top five. But all the talk makes it sound like the Packers would love to have what most teams already have. The reality may actually be quite different.

I would trade top 5 WRs with nearly ANY team in the NFL

I don't have time to go 5 deep on every roster and break it down...but I would guess that there are at least 24 of 32 teams that I would trade straight up for

The 4th and 5th receivers would be a small part when considering such a deal. You are saying you would make the trade with "at least" 24 teams right now. Well lets look at just the NFC........

Tampa.............NO
Atlanta.............NO
New Orleans......NO
Carolina............NO (???)

Dallas...............NO (???)
Giants...............NO
Philly................NO
Wash................NO (???)

Chicago.............NO
Minn.................NO
Detroit..............YES

San Fran...........NO
Seattle.............NO
Arizona.............YES
St. Louis...........?? (???)

There are 9 NO's (maybe 13) right there and it's only half the league. Which of the NO's above would you trade with 5 for 5 right now if you had to make the deal today?

Thank you. Most accurate post in this thread. Those who claim i'm way off that Ruvell and Holiday could be MANY NFL's 2nd receiver, other than about 7 teams, that is accurate. I did forget about the Bengals. But, Dallas? TO had a worse year than DD, and glenn is good, but aging, I'd rather have Jenning, Holiday, or Ruvell than him. Ruvell and Holiday are underestimated by most of you. They will, if healthy, prove you all wrong this year. They have great hands, and quickness, and Holiday has the ability to go deep and fight for the ball like Javon used to do. You'll see, if healthy, the problem MM will have at the end of preseason will be who to cut. Guaranteed.

Nuts

Why don't you name the #2 WR's in the NFL Ruvell Martin is better than

[RashanGary]

Jennings injury was pretty much a fluke IMO. Taht is a very unusual way to get tied up. He'll be fine. We do need guys to step up though, Driver isn't going ot be around forever.

As far as worries go for me it's

RB
SS
OG *I don't know for certain 2 guys will step up*
#3 CB *Woodson and Harris are getting old*
Backup RB
#3 WR

It's exaggerated by the media IMO.

[Bretsky]

What NFC teams would you make that deal with? (Packers top 5 WR's straight up for theirs with no salary cap considerations).

Why stop there.......

What teams in the entire league would you make that deal with?

This time of year you have to project the top five. But all the talk makes it sound like the Packers would love to have what most teams already have. The reality may actually be quite different.

I would trade top 5 WRs with nearly ANY team in the NFL

I don't have time to go 5 deep on every roster and break it down...but I would guess that there are at least 24 of 32 teams that I would trade straight up for

The 4th and 5th receivers would be a small part when considering such a deal. You are saying you would make the trade with "at least" 24 teams right now. Well lets look at just the NFC........

Tampa.............NO
Atlanta.............NO
New Orleans......NO
Carolina............NO (???)

Dallas...............NO (???)
Giants...............NO
Philly................NO
Wash................NO (???)

Chicago.............NO
Minn.................NO
Detroit..............YES

San Fran...........NO
Seattle.............NO
Arizona.............YES
St. Louis...........?? (???)

There are 9 NO's (maybe 13) right there and it's only half the league. Which of the NO's above would you trade with 5 for 5 right now if you had to make the deal today?

Thank you. Most accurate post in this thread. Those who claim i'm way off that Ruvell and Holiday could be MANY NFL's 2nd receiver, other than about 7 teams, that is accurate. I did forget about the Bengals. But, Dallas? TO had a worse year than DD, and glenn is good, but aging, I'd rather have Jenning, Holiday, or Ruvell than him. Ruvell and Holiday are underestimated by most of you. They will, if healthy, prove you all wrong this year. They have great hands, and quickness, and Holiday has the ability to go deep and fight for the ball like Javon used to do. You'll see, if healthy, the problem MM will have at the end of preseason will be who to cut. Guaranteed.

I am a big fan of ruvell and holiday but i belive your still wrong when you say they would be a 2nd receiver for many teams, in the nfc the only teams i belive they could do that in are
Falcons eagles bucs 49ers

I would not take Ruvell Martin over any of those teams starting WR's.

The Niners might be considered.

[The Leaper]

Tampa.............NO
Atlanta.............NO
New Orleans......NO
Carolina............NO


OK, let's break it down the way I did previously with GB using each teams top 3 WRs and top TE, which is a better representation of a team's receiving corp than the top 5 WRs. These ratings represent a combination of a receiver's ability now (short term) with his potential (long term). In that regard, a talented young WR could be far more valuable overall in terms of their value to a team than an elite 10 year veteran who is aging. Rookies will receive a tiered rating based on their draft position, as there is no other way to really quantify their value otherwise.

I'll use the top 3 receivers from last season in terms of receptions unless there is a notable addition this offseason or a player who is clearly a top receiver that will return from an injury plagued 2006 season. These rating are my opinion, and stats are over previous 2 seasons unless noted otherwise.

GREEN BAY TOTAL = 440
Driver 85/60=145...2500 yds, 13 TDs
Jennings 55/70=125...625 yds, 3 TDs [1 year]
Martin 45/55=100...350 yds, 1 TD [1 year]
Franks 35/35=70...450 yds, 1 TD

Compare to:

TAMPA BAY TOTAL = 420
Galloway 85/45=130...2300 yds, 17 TDs
Clayton 50/50=100...725 yds, 1 TD
Hilliard 50/40=90...625 yds, 3 TDs
Smith 50/50=100...625 yds, 5 TDs

NEW ORLEANS TOTAL = 520
Colston 70/80=150...1025 yds, 8 TDs [1 year]
Meachem 60/80=140...ROOKIE [#27 overall]
Henderson 60/60=120...1100 yds, 8 TDs
Johnson 55/55=110...300 yds, 2 TDs [1 year due to injury]

ATLANTA TOTAL = 505
Jenkins 60/70=130...950 yds, 10 TDs
White 55/60=115...950 yds, 3 TDs
Robinson 40/65=105...ROOKIE [#75 overall]
Crumpler 85/70=155...1650 yds, 13 TDs

CAROLINA TOTAL = 465
Smith 90/80=170...2725 yds, 20 TDs
Jarrett 50/75=125...ROOKIE [#45 overall]
Carter 45/55=100...450 yds, 4 TDs
Mangum 35/35=70...375 yds, 3 TDs

So, I would say NO to trading with Tampa Bay...but I would say YES to trading with either New Orleans, Atlanta or Carolina.

I'm not going to sit here and go through every team. Suffice it to say, your knee-jerk reaction to how "good" the Green Bay WRs are is well overstated. It seems that the ratio of teams we should trade with probably is much closer to my 75% (24 teams) than your 12.5% (4 teams).

[the_idle_threat]

I'm stunned that you would rate Meachem almost on par with Driver, and well ahead of Jennings. What has Meachem accomplished? He had exactly one good year in college and came out early. Your subjective ratings for rookies (Meachem, Jarrett, Robinson) and other young players (Jenkins, White) seem to be derived solely upon where they were drafted, and they don't reflect the reality that rookie receivers often fail to make an impact in year 1.

Also, I can't agree that Eric Johnson is so much better than Franks. I know we're all down on Franks around here, but Johnson has had only one good year, and it was several seasons ago now. You know ... back around the time Franks was a Pro-bowler too. At least Franks can block, and he generally stays healthy. Johnson has missed two full seasons out of the last four.

I would not trade our receiving corps for New Orleans', unless perhaps they throw in Reggie Bush and we throw in Morency.

Carolina is probably a little better than us at #1, although that is debatable. You might be surprised to learn that Driver (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133276) has outproduced Smith (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235157)in 4 of the 6 years they have been in the league together, including last year. Carolina has a huge hole at #2, and #3 and TE are just guys. No trade there.

And we should trade Driver and Jennings for underacheivers like Jenkins and White? No dice. Of course the real value is Crumpler for Franks, but aside from Crumpler, Atlanta really has nothing but question marks.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess, but there is NO clear argument that any of these receiving corps are better than what we have, even on paper.

The big complaint about the Packers' receiving corps is that we have one Pro-Bowler and then a bunch of young question marks. At best, the same thing can be said about each of these receiving corps listed above. Most teams don't even have a Pro-Bowler, and several are expecting big things from rookies. When you actually look at the depth charts (http://www.nfl.com/depthcharts) across the league, the Packers don't appear to be anywhere near the bottom ten in the league when you consider 1st, 2nd and 3rd receiver plus tight end.

[RashanGary]

I agree Idle. They look average but if Jennings steps up to the 70 catch 1000 yard area and Driver has another 1000 yard year it is a darn good tandem.

As far as #3 goes, there are about 6 young guys and all we need is one to step up to the #3 spot.

[the_idle_threat]

True, and when you look at #3 receivers around the league, Ruvell Martin's numbers last year were just about average for that position (21 catches, 358 yards, 1 TD). We have all kinds of guys who can give us that kind of production. I don't know that Ruvell is the answer, but we have enough options that we don't have a "huge hole" at #3 receiver.

[Bretsky]

True, and when you look at #3 receivers around the league, Ruvell Martin's numbers last year were just about average for that position (21 catches, 358 yards, 1 TD). We have all kinds of guys who can give us that kind of production. I don't know that Ruvell is the answer, but we have enough options that we don't have a "huge hole" at #3 receiver.


Martin also had the benefit of playing with BF on a team that could not run and was losing or needing to pass quite often.

If Ruvell Martin was a #3 TT would not have drafted a WR in both rounds 3 and 5.

[RashanGary]

Bretsky, at the very least it's an exaggeration to say we have a horrible squad. Our top guys is a probowler, our number 2 is pretty good with potential to be a probowler and we have a bunch of guys that that could be the #3 and we only need one of them to step up. No matter how you look at it, our WR's aren't that bad.

RB's are a different story if our two unprovens prove to be junk but WR's are fine unless injury and what team would be good with an injury to one of their top 2? Not too many is the asnwer. Maybe 4 or 5 but the vast majority of teams don't have 3 or 4 #1/#2 WR's.

[Bretsky]

Bretsky, at the very least it's an exaggeration to say we have a horrible squad. Our top guys is a probowler, our number 2 is pretty good with potential to be a probowler and we have a bunch of guys that that could be the #3 and we only need one of them to step up. No matter how you look at it, our WR's aren't that bad.

RB's are a different story if our two unprovens prove to be junk but WR's are fine unless injury and what team would be good with an injury to one of their top 2? Not too many is the asnwer. Maybe 4 or 5 but the vast majority of teams don't have 3 or 4 #1/#2 WR's.


I never said our WR's were horrible; I've always felt you need at least three starting caliber WR's and at this point we have two. History suggests one will get hurt and that is when we are truly in trouble.

Agree on the RB situation. And there too; if we get an injury we could be in trouble as well.

[The Leaper]

I'm stunned that you would rate Meachem almost on par with Driver, and well ahead of Jennings. What has Meachem accomplished? He had exactly one good year in college and came out early. Your subjective ratings for rookies (Meachem, Jarrett, Robinson) and other young players (Jenkins, White) seem to be derived solely upon where they were drafted, and they don't reflect the reality that rookie receivers often fail to make an impact in year 1.

EXACTLY WHAT OF MY POST DID YOU ACTUALLY READ? Some of you are so frustrating. I clearly pointed out how I was rating rookies. Obviously, rookies are nearly impossible to quantify. The only thing you can do is project their relative potential based on draft position. It is a guess...but a guy who is taken in the first round should have quite a bit of potential, don't you think? The ratings will change based on their future performance...but you have nothing else to go on right now.

As I also pointed out, younger players can have more worth to a team because of the fact they have a longer potential timeframe to help the team. Marvin Harrison is great...but I'd much rather have Calvin Johnson on my team right now. Wouldn't you?

Meachem was selected near the end of the first round. As such, I give him a rating of 60/80. That means he currently isn't even viewed as a reliable starter currently...which I consider to be a 70 rating. However, over the next 5+ years, he has the talent to become a potential very good player with a rating of 80. If you notice, that is LOWER than Driver's current rating of 85.


Also, I can't agree that Eric Johnson is so much better than Franks.

Fine. That is your opinion. Remember, this ranking is in terms of being a receiver...not an all-around TE. Bubba's contribution to the passing game the last 2 years has been next to nothing. What makes you think he is suddenly going to have a 500 yard, 5 TD season now?

In actuality, Johnson put up better numbers than Franks last year as the #2 TE in San Francisco. So, given the chance as a #1 receiver, he should be able to put up 45+ catches and 400+ yards. Not great...but certainly worthy of a 55/55 rating. How's that for proof he is better than Franks as a receiver? Do a little research before you throw out meaningless opinions based on no factual evidence whatsoever.


Carolina is probably a little better than us at #1, although that is debatable.

You are telling me that you wouldn't take Steve Smith over Donald Driver in a heatbeat? You are insane. I love Driver. He's a great player. He doesn't compare whatsoever to Steve Smith...who despite missing time to injury still posted 7 more TDs and 200+ yards than Driver over the last 2 years. He was injured in 2004, but was clearly has been a better receiver than Driver in the last 2 years. He is also almost 4 years younger than Driver.


And we should trade Driver and Jennings for underacheivers like Jenkins and White? No dice. Of course the real value is Crumpler for Franks, but aside from Crumpler, Atlanta really has nothing but question marks.

Yes the real value is Crumpler...however, Jenkins isn't a bad receiver and Vick is more of the underachiever. I only rated Jenkins as slightly better than Jennings...mainly due to his size and ability to put points on the board. Robinson is a guess...but as a first day draft pick, you have think he has more potential than Martin for now. The receivers for ATL aren't that much worse than Green Bay's...and Crumpler is ten times better than Franks in terms of receiving ability.

[Bossman641]

So, I would say NO to trading with Tampa Bay...but I would say YES to trading with either New Orleans, Atlanta or Carolina.

I'd take New Orleans and probably Carolina, but hell no to Atlanta and TB.

[woodbuck27]

# 85 Greg Jennings Position: WR Height: 5-11 Weight: 197
Born: 09/21/1983 College: Western Michigan NFL Experience: 2

Receiving

Year Team.... G.. GS.. Rec.. Yds.. Avg.. Lg.. TD.. 20+.. 40+.. 1st

2006 Packers 14. 11... 45... 632. 14.0. 75... 3.... 10.... 2..... 30
TOTAL...........14. 11... 45... 632. 14.0. 75... 3.... 10.... 2..... 30

Our #3 WR last season

# 18 Ruvell Martin Position: WR Height: 6-4 Weight: 217
Born: 08/10/1982 College: Saginaw Valley State NFL Experience: 2

Receiving

Year Team.... G.. GS... Rec... Yds... Avg... Lg... TD.. 20+... 40+... 1st

2006 Packers 13.. 3.... 21.... 358... 17.0.. 36.... 1.... 7...... 0....... 16
TOTAL........ 13.. 3.... 21.... 358... 17.0.. 36.... 1.... 7...... 0....... 16

Why is Ruvell Martin the forgotten man?

He only started 3 games last season and was coming on.

[pbmax]

Two is the definition of a lot? :lol:


Truthfully there are a LOT of team that are in better shape than the Packers.

Lions - Calvin Johnson, Roy Williams, Mike Furrey
Cardinals - Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Bryant Johnson


Which would you rather have? Really, does the 4th & 5th WR make that much difference? Seems that the top 3 are really the ones that matter.

Packers have a "weakness" right now. Perhaps one of the young guys steps up and it becomes a strength. We'll see. There are sure enough young guys that ONE ought to be able to step up...

[retailguy]

Two is the definition of a lot? :lol:



I'm a busy guy. Who has got the time to look at all this stuff? :D

Quite honestly, I picked two teams that SUCK for a reason. If they've got better guys than we do, we're in trouble....

We needed and still need a better #3, that could be a #2 in a pinch. If Jennings doesn't pan out, we're f_____ for 2007. It's that simple.

[the_idle_threat]

I'm stunned that you would rate Meachem almost on par with Driver, and well ahead of Jennings. What has Meachem accomplished? He had exactly one good year in college and came out early. Your subjective ratings for rookies (Meachem, Jarrett, Robinson) and other young players (Jenkins, White) seem to be derived solely upon where they were drafted, and they don't reflect the reality that rookie receivers often fail to make an impact in year 1.

EXACTLY WHAT OF MY POST DID YOU ACTUALLY READ? Some of you are so frustrating. I clearly pointed out how I was rating rookies. Obviously, rookies are nearly impossible to quantify. The only thing you can do is project their relative potential based on draft position. It is a guess...but a guy who is taken in the first round should have quite a bit of potential, don't you think? The ratings will change based on their future performance...but you have nothing else to go on right now.

As I also pointed out, younger players can have more worth to a team because of the fact they have a longer potential timeframe to help the team. Marvin Harrison is great...but I'd much rather have Calvin Johnson on my team right now. Wouldn't you?

Meachem was selected near the end of the first round. As such, I give him a rating of 60/80. That means he currently isn't even viewed as a reliable starter currently...which I consider to be a 70 rating. However, over the next 5+ years, he has the talent to become a potential very good player with a rating of 80. If you notice, that is LOWER than Driver's current rating of 85.


Also, I can't agree that Eric Johnson is so much better than Franks.

Fine. That is your opinion. Remember, this ranking is in terms of being a receiver...not an all-around TE. Bubba's contribution to the passing game the last 2 years has been next to nothing. What makes you think he is suddenly going to have a 500 yard, 5 TD season now?

In actuality, Johnson put up better numbers than Franks last year as the #2 TE in San Francisco. So, given the chance as a #1 receiver, he should be able to put up 45+ catches and 400+ yards. Not great...but certainly worthy of a 55/55 rating. How's that for proof he is better than Franks as a receiver? Do a little research before you throw out meaningless opinions based on no factual evidence whatsoever.


Carolina is probably a little better than us at #1, although that is debatable.

You are telling me that you wouldn't take Steve Smith over Donald Driver in a heatbeat? You are insane. I love Driver. He's a great player. He doesn't compare whatsoever to Steve Smith...who despite missing time to injury still posted 7 more TDs and 200+ yards than Driver over the last 2 years. He was injured in 2004, but was clearly has been a better receiver than Driver in the last 2 years. He is also almost 4 years younger than Driver.


And we should trade Driver and Jennings for underacheivers like Jenkins and White? No dice. Of course the real value is Crumpler for Franks, but aside from Crumpler, Atlanta really has nothing but question marks.

Yes the real value is Crumpler...however, Jenkins isn't a bad receiver and Vick is more of the underachiever. I only rated Jenkins as slightly better than Jennings...mainly due to his size and ability to put points on the board. Robinson is a guess...but as a first day draft pick, you have think he has more potential than Martin for now. The receivers for ATL aren't that much worse than Green Bay's...and Crumpler is ten times better than Franks in terms of receiving ability.

Leaper, we have a difference in opinion. Spouting off bullshit like I didn't read your post, I didn't do any research, or best yet, I am insane, is childish and ridiculous. Particularly ridiculous considering that I provided hyperlinks to pages at NFL.com to support a number of my points in the post you are ripping me for.

I read your post, I did research, and I come to a different opinion. My opinion is no less reasonable than yours.

In my opinion, you are overrating the other teams' guys and underrating our own. Based upon draft position---which is NOT the only way to evaluate young players; what about college production?---you give completely unproven guys gaudy ratings based upon potential alone. If this is your mode of thinking, why don't you have Fergie rated as our 3rd receiver with a rating similar to that of Greg Jennings?

Lemme guess ... because he's older and always injured? But so is Eric Johnson, and you conveniently ignore that fact with him. Sure, Johnson put up better numbers last year than Bubba Franks---barely---but what did Johnson do the season before last? Oh that's right---nothing! He was injured for the entire year.

We have a difference in opinion on several of these guys. I like Bubba, and I think he'll step up from his performances in the past 2 years, because he should not be needed as a 6th lineman as much. You like the chance of Eric Johnson repeating 2004, and not 2003 or 2005.

I like DD, with his rapport with Brett Favre and his consistent production in 4 of the last 5 years. You seem to prefer Steve Smith, who has been more on-and-off over the past 5 years, but had an explosive season in 2005.

I might be wrong, but you might be too. No need to act like you are the only one who can read and do research. Get over yourself.

[Bretsky]

I love Driver; seen him in person out of football and he's a wonderful man.

But he's not in Steve Smith's talent level as a WR IMO.

PFW, several magazines polled scouts and personell guys around the NFL as to the top WR's in the game. The guys that are consistently in the top 5 are Steve Smith and Tory Holt. Best route runners in football. I think Holt is tops, but would have no problem giving that honor to Smith.

I also hope Bubba returns, but I don't buy for a second it's all because they didn't send him out enough. In the past few years I've witnessed several several instances within the five yard line where Bubba was a primary receiver and the LB jams him up and he never gets out on his pattern. Wayne Simmons use to be wonderful as a LB at doing that. Bubba just didn't get out on his patterns and when that occurs the coaches lose confidence and don't call his number. Hopefully he regains that.

[run pMc]

If we're just talking about this season, I'd trade for ARI, DET, SEA, STL, maybe NO, maybe CAR, and maybe DAL on the NFC side. On the AFC side, I'd trade for DEN, IND, NE, CIN, and probably NYJ. That's 12 teams I'd at least consider...so that probably puts GB's WR squad in the middle of the league as far as talent. I do agree that (God forbid) if something happens to DD the passing game will be be in big trouble.

(I didn't count KoRo as being on the squad.)

Any news on how the rookies are practicing thus far? All I heard was that Jones had a nice TD catch.

[Fritz]

Part of the differences of opinion come from how you value the future. If you want talent just for this season, you'd go with Dallas, featuring TO and T. Glenn. But if you are looking more to the future you'd go with Detroit, who has Roy Williams and Calvin Johnson. Given that, I like Green Bay's situation - in 08 and 09, when Jennings, Jones, and Clowney ought to be developing nicely and Driver ought to still be playing at a high level. But for this year, yeah, it looks a little skinny.

As for GB's situation, well, it is full of "ifs." But what team's siutation isn't? NE should be great - IF Tom Brady stays healthy (which he has historically), and if Randy Moss doesn't sabotage the team and if he returns to form(which he didn't after getting moved from Minny to Oakland).

Noboldy really knows. That's part of the fun.

[The Leaper]

Leaper, we have a difference in opinion. Spouting off bullshit like I didn't read your post, I didn't do any research, or best yet, I am insane, is childish and ridiculous.

I read your post, I did research, and I come to a different opinion. My opinion is no less reasonable than yours.

You certainly did not read my first post. You clearly asked how I could rank the rookie WRs...WHEN I CLEARLY EXPLAINED HOW I RANKED THEM in my original post. If you had read it completely, you would have known...that is simply a fact.


In my opinion, you are overrating the other teams' guys and underrating our own. Based upon draft position---which is NOT the only way to evaluate young players; what about college production?---you give completely unproven guys gaudy ratings based upon potential alone.

College production is different. A guy may put up lesser numbers, but play in a much harder conference. Putting up 1500 yards and 15 TDs in the WAC is a hell of a lot different than putting up 1500 yards and 15 TDs in the SEC.

The bottom line is that all rookies have right now is potential, and I would like to see some EVIDENCE on your part as to why my rankings are lame. To this point, you haven't offered much of anything in terms of analysis...while I have.


If this is your mode of thinking, why don't you have Fergie rated as our 3rd receiver with a rating similar to that of Greg Jennings?

Why should I? He's never put up stats comparable to Jennings' last year on a conistent basis...and has only been over 400 yards once in his career. He is routinely injured. He had FIVE WHOLE CATCHES last year. How that equates to a similar rating as Jennings is beyond me. Care to explain...or are you simply going to continue to dismiss my analysis with no real explanation to back it up?


Lemme guess ... because he's older and always injured? But so is Eric Johnson, and you conveniently ignore that fact with him. Sure, Johnson put up better numbers last year than Bubba Franks---barely---but what did Johnson do the season before last? Oh that's right---nothing! He was injured for the entire year.

Johnson put up better numbers than Franks last year PART TIME as a #2 TIGHT END!! So how the hell are you going to sit here and argue that I'm an idiot for saying that Johnson is a better receiver as a TE? Yes, he missed a couple years due to injury. That is why I rate him WELL BELOW the point of being a reliable receiver. However, when healthy, the guy is clearly a very capable receiver who can easily put up 45 catches and 500 yards. There isn't a chance in hell Bubba gets anywhere near those numbers again.


I might be wrong, but you might be too. No need to act like you are the only one who can read and do research. Get over yourself.

No, I'm just acting like I'm the only one WHO DID RESEARCH, because it is a fact. I didn't just come into the discussion and claim that Green Bay's receivers were just about as good as anyone else's without providing some detailed reasoning behind it.

My rankings aren't genius...they are merely based solely on the information available that show pretty easily how Smith is better than Driver. To think otherwise is CONTRARY to the vast majority of NFL observers and personnel. I pointed out the facts to prove it...in less playing time over the prior 2 years, he racked up more yards and 50% more TDs. In my world, and in the world of most other objective observers, that means Smith is a bigger playmaker and better receiver...especially when you consider that I would feel that Favre is a better QB than Delhomme.

So, other than simply stating "I think Driver is better", how do you back up your assertion? WHY do you think Driver is better? WHAT EVIDENCE is there that Driver is better? To this point, you haven't offered ANYTHING in that regard.

[the_idle_threat]

Whatever, dude.

It's abundantly clear that we have both looked at the history on these players, and we have differences of opinion. I think your numerical "ratings" are arbitrary and meaningless, and you think the same about my arguments. Looks like a stalemate to me. Are you mature enough to come to the same realization?

Apparently not.

You continue to insist I haven't read your posts and I haven't done any research, when in fact it is plainly obvious that I have done both. You don't want to admit it, but it is possible to do these things and still disagree with you.

Time to move on to another thread.

[esoxx]

For god sakes idle, just read the damn posts! :P

[the_idle_threat]

For god sakes idle, just read the damn posts! :P

No matter how many times I read them, they still don't make any damned sense! :P :twisted: :P

[The Leaper]

I think your numerical "ratings" are arbitrary and meaningless, and you think the same about my arguments.

Fine.

You think Driver, with 200 less yards and 7 less TDs over a 2 year period, is better than Steve Smith.

You think Bubba Franks is as good of a receiver as Eric Johnson, even though Franks did less in that capacity last year than Johnson...despite the fact that Johnson wasn't even a full-time starter in SF behind Vernon Davis.

If being able to post better stats than another player over a 16 or 32 game period isn't enough to change your mind, then don't mind me...just keep drinking the kool-aid and expecting Bubba Franks to light it up with 50 catches and 8 TDs this year.

[the_idle_threat]

I didn't say Driver was clearly better than Smith ... I invite you to go back and re-read my post. Better yet, I'll cut and paste what I wrote:


Carolina is probably a little better than us at #1, although that is debatable.

I said it was debateable that Smith is clearly better than Driver.

I find it interesting and very telling that you look at the past 2 years for Driver vs. Smith (because last year alone favors Driver) and only last year alone for Franks vs. Johnson (because the last 2 years favors Franks).

The numbers can lead to different conclusions depending upon where you draw the lines, and you are drawing your lines very carefully.

Incidentally, if Bubba scores 8 touchdowns next year, he will have scored more touchdowns in one season than Eric Johnson has scored in his entire career (7). That's a fact, which you can look up here (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/289090)if you don't believe it.

Of course, Bubba scored 9 touchdowns in 2001, 7 touchdowns in 2002 and 7 more touchdowns in 2004. Source. (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187388)

I don't expect Bubba to score 8 touchdowns this season---that is something you made up---but it seems to me that Bubba has a far greater chance of doing that then Johnson does.

[The Leaper]

I find it interesting and very telling that you look at the past 2 years for Driver vs. Smith (because last year alone favors Driver) and only last year alone for Franks vs. Johnson (because the last 2 years favors Franks).

How is it interesting? In fact, I clearly noted these very points in my first post...showing where players missed time. If a guy misses a season due to injury, OF COURSE his stats will be less. That is why Bubba has better stats (only VERY slightly) than Johnson over 2 years.

Hell, if you want to take it to an average per game played, be my guest. It will only make the disparity between Driver and Smith even greater...and prove just how anemic Bubba's stats really are.


I don't expect Bubba to score 8 touchdowns this season---that is something you made up---but it seems to me that Bubba has a far greater chance of doing that then Johnson does.

I disagree. Johnson is a decent receiving TE when healthy...much better than Franks. If he does stay healthy, he will be playing on one of the most prolific offenses in the NFL and probably will put up much better stats than Bubba. Remember, most of Johnson's career (when healthy) has been spent on horrible offensive teams...his one good season was with Garcia on an OK team. Bubba's great seasons were with strong offensive teams. Now that the team has struggled on offense in recent years, his production has gone into the crapper. I don't see how 2007 will be any different in that regard.

I certainly agree that Johnson is a much greater health risk than Bubba. However, I think I would much rather take the health risk when I know the guy could put up solid numbers when healthy...which Johnson has. Bubba has been fairly healthy the last two years...and has nothing to show for it.

[the_idle_threat]

If you wanna compare apples to apples, compare Driver and Smith in the 5-year period from 2002 to 2006, since both Driver and Smith became starters for the first time in 2002. You will find the overall numbers actually favor Driver, no matter how you break them down. Smith had 1 great season, and has not been better than Driver otherwise.

One huge difference in opinion between us is that I don't excuse a player for being injured. I put a premium on 16-game players, and I think teams should not count on guys who prove to be injury-prone.

An injured player continues to get paid, and he leaves the team with a big hole in the starting lineup that has to be filled by a lesser player. It's one thing if a guy gets hurt once, maybe even twice. But when it becomes a pattern, you have to discount the guy's expected production by the amount of time he will probably miss due to injury.

Bubba looked pretty bad for much of last year, but at least he has a chance of improving and doing something to help the team when he is on the field, as opposed to a guy like Johnson who spends too much time standing around on the sideline in street clothes. He can't catch any balls or score any touchdowns there!

Bubba missed six games in 2005, but has played in all 16 games in his other 6 seasons, for a career attendance of 95% (106 of 112). Johnson has played in 57 of 96 games in his career (59%).

Incidentally, this is the one big reservation I have about Justin Harrell. I think he will be a guy who makes the defense a lot better when he plays, but then leaves the team vulnerable when he inevitably sits down for a few games. That's why we need a good rotation there that includes guys like Corey Williams, who are less talented players but can do well as a spot starters when needed.

[Packgator]

What NFC teams would you make that deal with? (Packers top 5 WR's straight up for theirs with no salary cap considerations).

Why stop there.......

What teams in the entire league would you make that deal with?

This time of year you have to project the top five. But all the talk makes it sound like the Packers would love to have what most teams already have. The reality may actually be quite different.

I would trade top 5 WRs with nearly ANY team in the NFL.

Let's be real here. Driver is fabulous, but is getting to the point where age will have a negative effect. He has 2-3 good years left. Jennings is a solid prospect, but he's not a playmaker. No one else on the roster has proven anything on the field yet.

I don't have time to go 5 deep on every roster and break it down...but I would guess that there are at least 24 of 32 teams that I would trade straight up for, and the only reason the number isn't higher is Driver. Take the #1 WR out of the equation, and Green Bay may have the most unproven group of WRs in the NFL.

That doesn't mean they will turn out to be crap. I'm hoping Jones and Clowney become studs. I'm not going to bet on it though.

Still feel that way?

[Bretsky]

ah, the dreaded the thread was dead six months ago so I'm bumping it for the I told you so effect.

I'm sure we all would now agree that our top 5 WR's are among the top of the NFL. Maybe NE and the Colts would be better. Not sure about any others.

Lots of people ate crow this season and we are more than happy to do it.

[The Leaper]

Still feel that way?

Nope. I was wrong. Jones has been a huge surprise. I thought he'd be in way over his head. Jennings has been able to stay healthy and has made a ton of plays as well.

However, I don't think our WRs are heads and shoulders above most NFL teams. They work hard and have a great relationship with Favre, which is the main reason why they are all so successful. They are certainly an above-average group...but by themselves they are not elite. There is a reason Favre wanted a guy like Moss in the offseason.

The bottom line is that our passing game is successful because of #4. If you put Jason Campbell out there, there is no way that our WRs would look anywhere near as good as they do. They are a very solid group of WRs, but Favre is what allows them to be great. His ability to read defenses and direct the WRs on what to do is second to none.

I still think there are probably 10-12 teams who have a better set of receivers talent-wise than we do in terms of the top 3. Most of them just don't have one of the greatest QBs of all-time tossing them the ball. That is the difference. We certainly have the DEEPEST corp at WR in the league...I'm not sure if it is the most TALENTED. We just have three solid "B grade" receivers behind our starters...which few teams can claim.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I still think there are probably 10-12 teams who have a better set of receivers talent-wise than we do in terms of the top 3.

I don't think so. Driver is a top 12 receiver. Jennings has to be one of the best #2 receivers. Jones or Robinson would rank in the top 10 3rd receivers.

[The Leaper]

I still think there are probably 10-12 teams who have a better set of receivers talent-wise than we do in terms of the top 3.

I don't think so. Driver is a top 12 receiver. Jennings has to be one of the best #2 receivers. Jones or Robinson would rank in the top 10 3rd receivers.

Well, I'm including good TEs as a top 3 receiver.

I'll take NE with Moss, Welker and Stallworth.
I'll take ARI with Fitzgerald, Boldin, whoever
I'll take CIN with Johnson, Housh, whoever
I'll take IND with Harrison, Wayne, Clark
I'll take CLE with Edwards, Bryant, Winslow
I'll take DAL with Owens, Witten, Glenn

Those six are definites in my mind. Then there are probably 6-8 teams that are toss ups. I guess I'll give GB the benefit of the doubt though based on production. They are a top 8 team in terms of their top 3 receivers. I'm doing this as if everyone is healthy...in terms of right now this season, Green Bay moves up because some of these teams ahead of them are beat up while the Packers are relatively healthy at WR/TE.

I don't see Driver as a top 12 receiver. He's not a red zone threat whatsoever. Personally, I think it is hard to put Driver in the top 15 receivers in the league in terms of talent. 63 catches...2 TDs. That isn't very good. Out of the top 40 receivers in yardage right now, only guys like Cotchery, Hilliard and Randel El have found paydirt less often. He's strictly a possession receiver.

To me, Jennings is probably about the same talent level as Driver...not as consistent, but can make huge plays. 40 catches...9 TDs. That is production. I see both of these guys as around the 25th-30th spots as receivers. Driver has the consistency, but can't score. Jennings isn't overly consistent, but makes plays when needed anywhere on the field. They are a great combo, but alone they don't have the complete package.

Jones intrigues me. His development will be interesting to watch. He has tremendous hands. He's more like Driver than Jennings...probably a great replacement for Driver in 2-3 years. Arguably a top 50 guy right now.

Koren is an enigma. He's got the talent to be in the top 50, but after being out of the league for a year he has some work to do to get back in form. He's the best #4 WR in the league though. Lee has made some plays, but he isn't anywhere near the top 50 as a receiver.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I still think there are probably 10-12 teams who have a better set of receivers talent-wise than we do in terms of the top 3.

I don't think so. Driver is a top 12 receiver. Jennings has to be one of the best #2 receivers. Jones or Robinson would rank in the top 10 3rd receivers.

Well, I'm including good TEs as a top 3 receiver.

I'll take NE with Moss, Welker and Stallworth.
I'll take ARI with Fitzgerald, Boldin, whoever
I'll take CIN with Johnson, Housh, whoever
I'll take IND with Harrison, Wayne, Clark
I'll take CLE with Edwards, Bryant, Winslow
I'll take DAL with Owens, Witten, Glenn

Those six are definites in my mind. Then there are probably 6-8 teams that are toss ups. I guess I'll give GB the benefit of the doubt though based on production. They are a top 8 team in terms of their top 3 receivers. I'm doing this as if everyone is healthy...in terms of right now this season, Green Bay moves up because some of these teams ahead of them are beat up while the Packers are relatively healthy at WR/TE.

I don't see Driver as a top 12 receiver. He's not a red zone threat whatsoever. Personally, I think it is hard to put Driver in the top 15 receivers in the league in terms of talent. 63 catches...2 TDs. That isn't very good. Out of the top 40 receivers in yardage right now, only guys like Cotchery, Hilliard and Randel El have found paydirt less often. He's strictly a possession receiver.

To me, Jennings is probably about the same talent level as Driver...not as consistent, but can make huge plays. 40 catches...9 TDs. That is production. I see both of these guys as around the 25th-30th spots as receivers. Driver has the consistency, but can't score. Jennings isn't overly consistent, but makes plays when needed anywhere on the field. They are a great combo, but alone they don't have the complete package.

Jones intrigues me. His development will be interesting to watch. He has tremendous hands. He's more like Driver than Jennings...probably a great replacement for Driver in 2-3 years. Arguably a top 50 guy right now.

Koren is an enigma. He's got the talent to be in the top 50, but after being out of the league for a year he has some work to do to get back in form. He's the best #4 WR in the league though. Lee has made some plays, but he isn't anywhere near the top 50 as a receiver.

I didn't see any mention of TEs. Driver doesn't usually have just 2 TDs. Just the breaks of having so many options. It amazes me that Driver still is underrated. Maybe he isn't the greatest redzone threat, but he can do everything you want your receiver to do. Some things he does as well as any receiver in the league. He led receivers in yards after catch last year. However, he also has deep speed. He also is one of the best leapers in the NFL. He runs great routes. Most receivers have things that aren't great at. His production the last several years puts him in the top 12 receivers in the game. That production has come with him as the only option, him as the secondary option to Javon Walker, and him as just one of many options (this year). He's a very good receiver.

[Guiness]

Incredibly funny to read back through this one! All the talk of Martin and Holliday, but barely a mention of Jones. No one expected much from him.

Our #3 WR spot is a real strength. And #4...assuming that's Robinson, the thought of him running a go route with an LB in chase has to worry DC's!

All in all, our top 5 WR's are probably #2 in the league. NE is better, but Indi with Harrison out is a lot weaker. Detroit and Arizona don't have anything after the #2. Dallas...is Glenn even healthy yet? Cleveland looks good when you include Winslow, but Lee has been giving us production there, so I don't even know if I'd take that!

[Packgator]

[quote=The Leaper]I still think there are probably 10-12 teams who have a better set of receivers talent-wise than we do in terms of the top 3.

I don't think so. Driver is a top 12 receiver. Jennings has to be one of the best #2 receivers. Jones or Robinson would rank in the top 10 3rd receivers.I didn't see any mention of TEs. Driver doesn't usually have just 2 TDs. Just the breaks of having so many options. It amazes me that Driver still is underrated. Maybe he isn't the greatest redzone threat, but he can do everything you want your receiver to do. Some things he does as well as any receiver in the league. He led receivers in yards after catch last year. However, he also has deep speed. He also is one of the best leapers in the NFL. He runs great routes. Most receivers have things that aren't great at. His production the last several years puts him in the top 12 receivers in the game. That production has come with him as the only option, him as the secondary option to Javon Walker, and him as just one of many options (this year). He's a very good receiver.

And how good is he going across the middle? Best in the league? He's got tremendous courage. I cringe at some of the situations he finds himself in......yet he keeps doing it and making plays every week.

[The Leaper]

Driver doesn't usually have just 2 TDs.

No, but he's never been a prolific scorer. He's never had a double digit TD season. Nearly 500 career catches and only 38 TDs to show for it...despite being paired with one of the most prolific TD tossers in NFL history?

Driver is what he is...a possession receiver. He's a great possession receiver, but he's not an all-around threat as a receiver. That is why he can't be counted among the league's elite.

Yes, he's productive. I never said anything about production. My comparison was never meant to be about production. That brings the surrounding talent into the equation, which is where most Packer receivers have a huge edge over the rest of the league with Favre being their QB.

[HarveyWallbangers]

In his four previous healthy seasons, he had 9, 9, 8 and 5 TDs. Except for the 5 and this year, those are good numbers.

Out of his 4 healthy seasons, he had at least 8 TDs in three of them. 8-9 TDs is not low for a wideout.

Even if he isn't the greatest redzone threat (which I've acknowledged), that doesn't mean he's a possession receiver. He can get deep. In every healthy year before this one, he averaged at least 14.1 yards/reception. This offense isn't predicated on the deep ball, but Donald can beat you deep, he can take a short one and go the distance, and he's exceptional on the intermediate routes. He also has fantastic hops, has solid hands, and is extremely tough.

[hoosier]

In his four previous healthy seasons, he had 9, 9, 8 and 5 TDs. Except for the 5 and this year, those are good numbers.

Out of his 4 healthy seasons, he had at least 8 TDs in three of them. 8-9 TDs is not low for a wideout.

Even if he isn't the greatest redzone threat (which I've acknowledged), that doesn't mean he's a possession receiver. He can get deep. In every healthy year before this one, he averaged at least 14.1 yards/reception. This offense isn't predicated on the deep ball, but Donald can beat you deep, he can take a short one and go the distance, and he's exceptional on the intermediate routes. He also has fantastic hops, has solid hands, and is extremely tough.

Driver is one of the best (and most exciting) after the catch that I've seen. That short crossing route that he turned into a huge gain in 4th quarter against Detroit was quite impressive. And don't forget his amazing durability and toughness.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I still think there are probably 10-12 teams who have a better set of receivers talent-wise than we do in terms of the top 3.

I don't think so. Driver is a top 12 receiver. Jennings has to be one of the best #2 receivers. Jones or Robinson would rank in the top 10 3rd receivers.

Well, I'm including good TEs as a top 3 receiver.

I'll take NE with Moss, Welker and Stallworth.
I'll take ARI with Fitzgerald, Boldin, whoever
I'll take CIN with Johnson, Housh, whoever
I'll take IND with Harrison, Wayne, Clark
I'll take CLE with Edwards, Bryant, Winslow
I'll take DAL with Owens, Witten, Glenn

Those six are definites in my mind. Then there are probably 6-8 teams that are toss ups. I guess I'll give GB the benefit of the doubt though based on production. They are a top 8 team in terms of their top 3 receivers. I'm doing this as if everyone is healthy...in terms of right now this season, Green Bay moves up because some of these teams ahead of them are beat up while the Packers are relatively healthy at WR/TE.

I don't see Driver as a top 12 receiver. He's not a red zone threat whatsoever. Personally, I think it is hard to put Driver in the top 15 receivers in the league in terms of talent. 63 catches...2 TDs. That isn't very good. Out of the top 40 receivers in yardage right now, only guys like Cotchery, Hilliard and Randel El have found paydirt less often. He's strictly a possession receiver.

To me, Jennings is probably about the same talent level as Driver...not as consistent, but can make huge plays. 40 catches...9 TDs. That is production. I see both of these guys as around the 25th-30th spots as receivers. Driver has the consistency, but can't score. Jennings isn't overly consistent, but makes plays when needed anywhere on the field. They are a great combo, but alone they don't have the complete package.

Jones intrigues me. His development will be interesting to watch. He has tremendous hands. He's more like Driver than Jennings...probably a great replacement for Driver in 2-3 years. Arguably a top 50 guy right now.

Koren is an enigma. He's got the talent to be in the top 50, but after being out of the league for a year he has some work to do to get back in form. He's the best #4 WR in the league though. Lee has made some plays, but he isn't anywhere near the top 50 as a receiver.

Well, you may not see driver as top 12, but 2 pro bowls are 2 pro bowls. The fans, players and coaches see him as being good.

Currently he sits at #13 in receiving yards, with 2 TEs included. Take them out and he is #11. Furthermore, he has those yards with significantly less catches then Welker and TJ.

But, you make the case that he is no red zone threat. That is just patently false. This year is an aberration. Should we not look at past production.

In 06 he had more TDs than: Ocho Cinco, Roy Williams, Boldin, Andre Johnson, Isaac Bruce, Coles, Furrey, Ward, Cotchery, fitz, Edwards, Glenn...do we need to continue this foolishness?

Let's take a look at your teams with better receivers. And, we go 5 deep. That is the strength of our team.

AZ: Who is third? Bryant Johnson. That is it. 32 catches and ZERO TDs. They don't have anybody else that is even a legitimate threat. Johson has been a perpetual disappointment in AZ. Sorry, but that is a clear win for us.

NE: Stallworth and Welker. Nice players but no better than what we have. Stallworth has bounced around for a reason and he has less receptions then our #3. Welker is racking up numbers because he plays on a great offensive team. Catching for 10 ypc is nothing to write home about. He is nothing special, a nice player. HIs value comes from being able to play multiple roles like he did in Miami. Jennings and Robinson would have the same numbers. A

At 3 you might have a case. Go to a 4th receiver and no way. Lee destroys Watson.

Natti: Whomever. That would be henry. But, since he can't stay on the field, that goes the packers way. Ocho Cinco is certainly better than any of our receivers, but TJ is no better than Driver. Put Jones/Krob/Lee and that is better than their #3.

Ind: Agreed. But, go deeper and they have nothing. Look at how they struggle without Harrison. Morehead. LOL As for Clark, his numbers and Lee's are almost identical.

Cleveland: Who is this Bryant you refer to? Their #3 is Jurevicius. I would certainly take our top 3 against theirs. And, 4th is Jamal Lewis..case closed.

Dallas: If everyone is healthy you could make a case for top 3, but not a chance if you go 4/5 deep. Don't you have to be on the field to count. Glenn doesn't have a reception THIS YEAR. But, let's go back..he had 6 tds last year. And, you are complaining about DD? DD had more receptions last year, almost the same ypc and more TDs.

[The Leaper]

Well, you may not see driver as top 12, but 2 pro bowls are 2 pro bowls. The fans, players and coaches see him as being good.

Again, it isn't about production. Driver has Favre throwing him the football, which puts him at a decidedly greater advantage than the receivers for about 80% of the rest of the league. I'm talking strictly TALENT...meaning, what would he do compared with other receivers IN THE EXACT SAME SITUATION.

You honestly believe that there aren't more than 12 receivers in the league that could put up better numbers with Favre tossing them the ball in this offense than 60 catches and 2 TDs?

The bottom line is that Favre raises the level and production of our WRs SIGNIFICANTLY. Just look at Bill Schroeder and what Favre did for him. That guy was a below average receiver who got 1000 yards a year and 6-8 TDs with Favre tossing him the ball. I will admit that Driver probably gets the least amount of help from Favre in terms of production due to his role as a possession receiver. Driver does a lot on his own and is a great WR. However, I just feel there are other guys who have more talent and ability to produce if given the same opportunity.

I think many of you discount just what Favre means to the production of our WRs. I'm not trying to say I'm unhappy with our receiver situation. In fact, I'm quite happy. We have the deepest group in the league, and as long as Favre is the guy tossing them the ball, they will be putting up some of the best numbers in the league as a unit.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Well, you may not see driver as top 12, but 2 pro bowls are 2 pro bowls. The fans, players and coaches see him as being good.

Again, it isn't about production. Driver has Favre throwing him the football, which puts him at a decidedly greater advantage than the receivers for about 80% of the rest of the league. I'm talking strictly TALENT...meaning, what would he do compared with other receivers IN THE EXACT SAME SITUATION.

You honestly believe that there aren't more than 12 receivers in the league that could put up better numbers with Favre tossing them the ball in this offense than 60 catches and 2 TDs?

The bottom line is that Favre raises the level and production of our WRs SIGNIFICANTLY. Just look at Bill Schroeder and what Favre did for him. That guy was a below average receiver who got 1000 yards a year and 6-8 TDs with Favre tossing him the ball. I will admit that Driver probably gets the least amount of help from Favre in terms of production due to his role as a possession receiver. Driver does a lot on his own and is a great WR. However, I just feel there are other guys who have more talent and ability to produce if given the same opportunity.

I think many of you discount just what Favre means to the production of our WRs. I'm not trying to say I'm unhappy with our receiver situation. In fact, I'm quite happy. We have the deepest group in the league, and as long as Favre is the guy tossing them the ball, they will be putting up some of the best numbers in the league as a unit.

Oh, we are going by TALENT.

Then you are even more wrong. DD's weakness has long been his hands. But, when people talk about talent usually they refer to a whole skillset.

DD lettered in Football and Track & Field in college and played 4 sports in high school. That tells me he is supremely talented. He is an OLYMPIC class high jumper.

Enough with your opinion, what exact area of talent do you find him deficient in?

DD would do just fine with any reasonable QB in the league. You overrate what Favre does just as you claim others do for WRs.

But, ok, let's take your argument. Can't i just say the same for other receivers like: TJ, Ocho, Welker, Moss, etc. They have the advantage of great QBs as well.

And, DD isn't a possession receiver. We play a offensive scheme that doesn't stress the bomb. Next thing you are going to tell me is that Taylor of San Fran was a possession receiver. Or that TO was a possession receiver in San Fran. Or was it Jerry Rice. If one isn't then the other has to be. Or, do they not have a possession receiver.

Schroeder: He wasn't below average. Sorry, but below average guys don't make 70 plus receptions. If that was the case, every receiver woulda done it with Favre. More importanly, he had ONE season over a 1000. And, one season over 5 tds.

[The Leaper]

Oh, we are going by TALENT.

Then you are even more wrong. DD's weakness has long been his hands. But, when people talk about talent usually they refer to a whole skillset.

DD lettered in Football and Track & Field in college and played 4 sports in high school. That tells me he is supremely talented. He is an OLYMPIC class high jumper.

That is athleticism, not talent. There are plenty of ridiculous athletes who can run and jump just as well as any NFL player...maybe better...but can't play football worth a lick.

Otherwise, all OLYMPIC class athletes would be in the NFL.

[The Leaper]

Schroeder: He wasn't below average. Sorry, but below average guys don't make 70 plus receptions. If that was the case, every receiver woulda done it with Favre. More importanly, he had ONE season over a 1000. And, one season over 5 tds.

So which is it? Was he average, or did he only do anything in one season? Thanks for making my point for me. Just go look at his numbers after he left Green Bay and went to Detroit. Then tell me how he isn't below average.

The guy was an athlete. He wasn't a football player.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Oh, we are going by TALENT.

Then you are even more wrong. DD's weakness has long been his hands. But, when people talk about talent usually they refer to a whole skillset.

DD lettered in Football and Track & Field in college and played 4 sports in high school. That tells me he is supremely talented. He is an OLYMPIC class high jumper.

That is athleticism, not talent. There are plenty of ridiculous athletes who can run and jump just as well as any NFL player...maybe better...but can't play football worth a lick.

Otherwise, all OLYMPIC class athletes would be in the NFL.

Well, then define Talent for me.

I asked before what talent you think he is missing?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Schroeder: He wasn't below average. Sorry, but below average guys don't make 70 plus receptions. If that was the case, every receiver woulda done it with Favre. More importanly, he had ONE season over a 1000. And, one season over 5 tds.

So which is it? Was he average, or did he only do anything in one season? Thanks for making my point for me. Just go look at his numbers after he left Green Bay and went to Detroit. Then tell me how he isn't below average.

The guy was an athlete. He wasn't a football player.

He was at his PEAK and average receiver. All players have peaks.

He made himself into a receiver.

After he left...that is a foolish argument to make. One, who EVER is good in Detroit besides Barry.

Second, he was FREAKING 31 years old. Most players don't last that long.

But, i would call 36 catches 2 consecutive years with both years average over 10...and 16.5 being the second highest ever as..well, proving the exact opposite.

Oh, and consider that he was basically their #1 receiver. And, played with a first year QB named Harrington.

Game, Set, Match.

[The Leaper]

Well, then define Talent for me.

It is impossible to quantify everything that makes up talent...but consider your general Madden-game type qualifications for a receiver. Those generally are what I am talking about.

It all goes together to create an overall rating. Driver doesn't lack much, except in terms of size. That is what greatly limits him from being a red zone threat, and it also hinders his capacity to make plays downfield in jump ball situations.

I've never said Driver isn't any good. However, he can't do everything as a receiver...like a Moss or Owens or Johnson. He can't dominate games and take them over like elite receivers do...even though he is paired with an all-time great QB. Neither do general accolades and awards...those are based on PRODUCTION. Otherwise, Favre should always be in the Pro Bowl...since he has always been one of the 3 most talented players in the NFC at QB.

I don't think he's a top 20 talent. He's certainly a top 10 producer when paired with Favre. I just think there are quite a few WRs in the league that could put up similar or better numbers than Driver if they were in his situation (several years in an offense along with a QB the caliber of Favre).

He's been put into a great situation and he's taken advantage of it. Great! That doesn't mean he's an elite talent.

[The Leaper]

After he left...that is a foolish argument to make. One, who EVER is good in Detroit besides Barry.

How is that a foolish argument? Why should Bill Schroeder, or any other player, not be viewed in the light of their career as a whole?

BTW...Roy Williams played pretty damn well in Detroit last year. 80 catches, 1300 yds. But who EVER is good in Detroit?


Game, Set, Match.

Glad to know you think you've won the argument over Schroeder as being below average by simply discounting all his years in Detroit as being unacceptable and foolish to evaluate.

I think only Driver's first year in the league is acceptable to evaluate. Driver is actually a piss poor receiver. He shouldn't even be a starter.

Game, Set, Match.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

After he left...that is a foolish argument to make. One, who EVER is good in Detroit besides Barry.

How is that a foolish argument? Why should Bill Schroeder, or any other player, not be viewed in the light of their career as a whole?

BTW...Roy Williams played pretty damn well in Detroit last year. 80 catches, 1300 yds. But who EVER is good in Detroit?


Game, Set, Match.

Glad to know you think you've won the argument over Schroeder as being below average by simply discounting all his years in Detroit as being unacceptable and foolish to evaluate.

I think only Driver's first year in the league is acceptable to evaluate. Driver is actually a piss poor receiver. He shouldn't even be a starter.

Game, Set, Match.

Once again, out of context. Roy didn't play under MM nor with a first year Joey Harrington.

But, the fact that you can really only name 2 players in Detroit proves MY point. EVER is hyperbole.

Of course one can view an entire career. But, you can't make your argument that Favre made him when he moves on at the twilight of his career. That is just stupid.

No, i won the argument because his production was good in detroit despite being older, playing with a shitty QB, a system that didn't throw the ball..leading receivers had less than 40 receptions, his YPC were in line with all of his career, etc.

Should i look at Montana's stats in KC and make and argument that Taylor and Rice made him?

[TennesseePackerBacker]

The fact that we can put 5 quality recievers out there at any given time, and any of them can be a legitimate threat makes the Packers very strong offensively.

Driver,Jennings,Jones,Martin,Lee,Robinson,Franks(r edzone?/healthy?).

No other team in the league has depth like that.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Well, then define Talent for me.

It is impossible to quantify everything that makes up talent...but consider your general Madden-game type qualifications for a receiver. Those generally are what I am talking about.

It all goes together to create an overall rating. Driver doesn't lack much, except in terms of size. That is what greatly limits him from being a red zone threat, and it also hinders his capacity to make plays downfield in jump ball situations.

I've never said Driver isn't any good. However, he can't do everything as a receiver...like a Moss or Owens or Johnson. He can't dominate games and take them over like elite receivers do...even though he is paired with an all-time great QB. Neither do general accolades and awards...those are based on PRODUCTION. Otherwise, Favre should always be in the Pro Bowl...since he has always been one of the 3 most talented players in the NFC at QB.

I don't think he's a top 20 talent. He's certainly a top 10 producer when paired with Favre. I just think there are quite a few WRs in the league that could put up similar or better numbers than Driver if they were in his situation (several years in an offense along with a QB the caliber of Favre).

He's been put into a great situation and he's taken advantage of it. Great! That doesn't mean he's an elite talent.

I'm not familiar with Madden type rating. Please enumerate or give link as to where this can be found.

Can't do everything? Interesting.

Moss: Can't run a disciplined route. Can't block. Can't go over the middle.

TO: Drops a ton of balls. Not very fast.

Ocho: Top of the line.

You have just chosen to view certain areas more importantly than others. Good for you. But, that doesn't make you right.

[4and12to12and4]

Incredibly funny to read back through this one! All the talk of Martin and Holliday, but barely a mention of Jones. No one expected much from him.

Our #3 WR spot is a real strength. And #4...assuming that's Robinson, the thought of him running a go route with an LB in chase has to worry DC's!

All in all, our top 5 WR's are probably #2 in the league. NE is better, but Indi with Harrison out is a lot weaker. Detroit and Arizona don't have anything after the #2. Dallas...is Glenn even healthy yet? Cleveland looks good when you include Winslow, but Lee has been giving us production there, so I don't even know if I'd take that!

:five: Hammer meet nail.