Say Hello To Pacman, Mr. Vick

[pbmax]

Source: Vick 'one of the heavyweights' in dogfighting
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2884063
By Kelly Naqi
Special to ESPN.com
Updated: May 27, 2007, 10:48 AM ET

He arrived at the hotel room, where our cameras were set up, in a T-shirt and jeans. "I'm nervous," he said, surveying our lights and camera equipment. "I've never done anything like this before."

Our confidential source says he's been involved in dog fighting for over 30 years. He's trained and fought -- by his estimation -- around 2,000 pit bulls and was poised to tell "Outside the Lines" about the time in 2000 when his dog squared off against a dog owned by someone he referred to as one of the "heavyweights" of the dog fighting world: Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick.

"He's a pit bull fighter," the source says of Vick. "He's one of the ones that they call 'the big boys:' that's who bets a large dollar. And they have the money to bet large money. As I'm talking about large money -- $30,000 to $40,000 -- even higher. He's one of the heavyweights."

On April 25, authorities raided a house in Surry County, Va., owned by Vick and reportedly found -- among other things -- 66 dogs (most of which were pit bulls), a dog-fighting pit, blood stained carpets and equipment commonly associated with dog fighting. Vick was not at the scene and denied knowledge of dog fighting at the property. To this point, no charges have been filed against him. But questions about Vick and his possible connection to dog fighting linger.

This source -- who required anonymity as a condition of our interview -- has helped law enforcement by supplying information on dog fights that has led to dozens of felony arrests.

"I've fought dogs, I pitted them, I bred them and I've done everything with them," says the source of his three decades in dog fighting. He then went on to describe the scene from that night seven years ago, as he took his 42-pound dog into the pit (the area where dogs fight) to face off against Vick's dog. He says Vick did not get into the pit, but had a member of his entourage handle his dog, while Vick placed bets with the 20 or so people in attendance.

Michael Vick's role in dogfighting's hidden society and a look at why some athletes participate in the brutal and illegal activity are examined Tuesday at 3:30 p.m. ET on OTL.

"Then he started, you know, waving money," the source says. "He was betting with everybody ... He said he got $5,000. He said he's betting on his animal."

While the source says he doesn't know how much Vick bet that night, he does recall the matches' outcome: Vicks' dog lost. He says Vick is known in the dog fighting community as "the man that comes with all the money" and his reputation is "[that] he brings a good dog and he's going to bet and he's going bring a nice sum of cash."

ESPN contacted Vick's agent, Joel Segal, who did not respond to the source's allegations.

In the U.S., dog fighting is considered a felony in every state except Wyoming and Idaho. Despite that fact, according to the Humane Society, it's estimated that somewhere between 20,000 to 40,000 people in this country take part in this multi-billion dollar industry.

"I believe that dog fighting is on the upswing," says John Goodwin, the deputy manager of the Animal Cruelty Campaign for the Humane Society. "And I believe that certain elements of the pop culture have glamorized dog fighting and glamorized big, tough pit bulls."

American pit bull terriers account for 99 percent of the species involved in dog fighting, and a pit bull puppy can cost as much as $5000. An average dog fight carries a $10,000 purse.

So why would a professional athlete risk his reputation -- and a lifetime of financial security -- to do this? "For the thrill of it," says a member of the Professional Football Hall of Fame, who asked not to be identified. "It's like gambling, no different than when Michael Jordan drops $100,000 on a hole of golf."

There's no official data on just how many professional athletes may be associated with dog fighting today. Before the current investigation against Vick, in the last couple of years, only two professional athletes stand out as having been publicly linked to allegations of dog fighting: former NBA forward Qyntel Woods (who faced possible charges of dog fighting before pleading guilty to animal abuse in 2005) and former NFL running back LeShon Johnson, who pled guilty to three charges related to dog fighting, also, in 2005. Johnson is currently serving a five year deferred sentence. But those players only scratch the surface of what Goodwin calls a 'subculture' of dog fighting among professional athletes.

Everybody in the dog world is worried about Michael Vick talking. Michael Vick is making large money, he's making millions, OK? And if he has to tell on some people [to avoid prison time], I think he would tell … I don't put nothing past him.
Confidential source

"You know, it's very interesting that we have got a whole roster of names of professional athletes that we know are involved in dog fighting," Goodwin says. "Surely, not every single one has come to light; I bet not even 10 percent have come to light."

If that's true, one reason may have to do with the "Code of Silence" among dog fighters. The source says many matches take place on rural farms, with 'lookouts' stationed in the woods and down surrounding roads, up to eight miles away. He adds that sometimes, local sheriffs are paid off to look the other way -- that is, when they're not participating in the dog fights themselves. But with up to two hundred people in attendance at any given match, how is it possible that a high-profile athlete can attend dog fights and never have word get out to the general public?

"Dog fighting is a very private thing," answers the source, who says that Vick was still involved in dog fighting as recently as last year. "It's all Pit Bull Men. It's close knit: you got your little boys, then you got your heavyweight boys. It's a completely different class ... And now [that] it's all over the media, and you have to keep it more private."

The source says he consented to our interview to change people's perceptions about dog fighting, because they have "the wrong idea" about it and should see "just one" match for themselves before judging it. "They'll let this other thing go -- what is it called? UFC [Ultimate Fighting Championship]?" he asked. "That is every bit as bad -- you know, that's terrible. But then you have thousands of people that cheer, rah, rah, and they really love that. You see guys get their heads busted, you know, and they get their arms messed up, their legs twisted almost off. But then they fuss over this here, is wrong."

When asked what he thinks people's reactions will be when they learn of his account of Vick's involvement in dog fighting, the source was nonplussed.

"They shouldn't be really upset, OK?" he said. "Because it's only just an animal. It's just a dog that is raised up. He's put out there, you know, and he's chained up, OK. And the time he gets a certain age, this dog is going to want to fight. It is bred in him, OK? He knows what he is and he's going to fight. Just take him off the leash, let him go."

"Dog fighting is illegal for a reason," says Goodwin. "It's a severe form of cruelty."

"The gameness that the dog fighters strive for -- and 'gameness' is the willingness to continue fighting, even in the face of extreme pain, even in the face of death -- is something that's bred into the dogs," Goodwin says. "There are pit bulls that have been bred away from the fighting lines that are perfectly socialized but the game bred dogs -- bred for fighting -- just have it bred in them, to want to kill any dog in front of them."

On Friday, Surry County Commonwealth Attorney Gerald Poindexter told The Associated Press that the investigation against Vick is "moving forward." When contacted by ESPN and asked for a response to the source's contention of Vick's involvment in dog fighting, Falcons spokesman Reggie Roberts responded via e-mail, "Michael was drafted by the Falcons in 2001. The allegations regarding him are still under investigation, and until we have facts related to the investigation, we are unable to respond further."

The NFL released this statement: "Dog fighting is cruel, degrading, and illegal. We support a thorough investigation into any allegations of this type of activity. Any NFL employee proved to be involved in this type of activity will be subject to prompt and significant discipline under our personal conduct policy."

While the NFL continues to monitor the Vick investigation, there's another group closely monitoring it as well … but for a different reason.

"Everybody in the dog world is worried about Michael Vick talking," the source added, shortly before leaving our interview room and heading back to work. "Michael Vick is making large money, he's making millions, OK? And if he has to tell on some people [to avoid prison time], I think he would tell … I don't put nothing past him."

[pbmax]

If its most common in rural areas and increasingly popular, then this might explain why the local prosecutor was dragging his feet. Someone well connected in his county might be involved and make it a difficult prosecution politcally.

And that might explain why the State Attorney General had this dumped in his lap. I don't know what the federal laws are, but if anyone was traveling across state lines, then the Feds might get a call too.

[packinpatland]

If the source above is correct, Vick started dog fighting his rookie year. I'm sure I read somewhere that his mother lived with him then, to 'keep him in line'.
Think it was a family business?



# 7 Michael Vick
Position: QB
Height: 6-0
Weight: 215
Born: 06/26/1980
College: Virginia Tech
NFL Experience: 7

[MJZiggy]

If its most common in rural areas and increasingly popular, then this might explain why the local prosecutor was dragging his feet. Someone well connected in his county might be involved and make it a difficult prosecution politcally.

And that might explain why the State Attorney General had this dumped in his lap. I don't know what the federal laws are, but if anyone was traveling across state lines, then the Feds might get a call too.

Someone local may have ben involved, but this story has now received far too much publicity for it to be dropped or covered at this point.

[Rastak]

What an asshole.....I hope he gets friggen mauled by one of the dogs he's been trying to torture.....

[MJZiggy]

Sounds more likely he'll get mauled by some of the people who are so nervous he's gonna sell them out to protect himself. (I can imagine that those who are trying to improve the reputation of pit bulls can't be too thrilled either) Either way, I won't be shedding any tears over this p**ck.

[Bretsky]

Absolutely dispacable; what a terrible person

If this is true

If I was the Falcons and this is true I'd send his @ss packing

If I was the commissioner I'd suspend Michael Vick for as long as I could get away with

[Rastak]

Absolutely dispacable; what a terrible person

If this is true

If I was the Falcons and this is true I'd send his @ss packing

If I was the commissioner I'd suspend Michael Vick for as long as I could get away with

I agree, what a scumbag.

[Bretsky]

I can already hear the media and NFLPA compaigning for leniency

MAJOR SUSPENSION


that's my only thoughts.

[BallHawk]

Force him to play in NFL Europe for the rest of his career.

[MJZiggy]

How 'bout the CFL...

[gbgary]

the vick brothers... :roll:

[BallHawk]

How 'bout the CFL...

Having Ricky Williams and Vick on the same team would be great. Unfortunately, there is yet to be a team named the Outlaws.

[Partial]

man, if thats his dogs and thats what he wants to do, thats his business.

[BallHawk]

man, if thats his dogs and thats what he wants to do, thats his business.

So, how are things going with the Redskins lately, Clint?

[Kiwon]

It's hard for small town officials to pull the trigger on local heros. In Vick's case, he probably makes in 2 weeks what the sheriff, deputies, and local prosecutor earn in a year. If the athlete has donated to the community than it gets even harder. Some of these guys will not be in their positions forever and they don't want to be known as the guy who took down the local star and cut off the donations to the community.

There is another side as well, dog and cock fighting is not that uncommon in rural America. I'll bet you anything that these officials ALREADY KNEW what was going on and had turned a blind eye to it. Worse still, they might have been paid off. $30-40,000 for one fight indicates the kind of money involved. You better believe that some county deputies can be bought for far less.

Besides all that, you can bet that local law enforcement knew exactly everywhere in their county dog fighting is taking place. Nobody can keep a secret and pick up a local for drug possession and he'll start talking. Just ask the locals. Some knew exactly where Michael Vick's house was and that he had 50-60 cages of Pit Bulls. Gee...rumors of dog fights, pit bulls, Michael Vick's relatives = what?

The foot dragging is probably because they realize that law enforcement is not clean in this either. Just imagine if friends of Vick, say a bigwig attorney in Atlanta for example, calls up and drops the hint that if Vick is indicted that he will implicate local officials. The result is chaos. These guys will turn on each other in order to save their rears.

The safest course is to claim insufficient evidence implicating Vick. I bet there is a lot of pressure on the Commonwealth Attorney to rule this way. Anything other than this will get very messy for them.

My guess is that everyone knows the truth here. It just depends how far back they want to peal this onion.

[motife]

Did you notice who else is mentioned in the article? Former GB RB LeShon Johnson.
http://www.pet-abuse.com/profiles/1912/

http://www.pet-abuse.com/media/profile_pics/abuser_1912.jpg

LeShon Johnson
Gender: Male
Approximate Age: 32
Date of Birth: Jan 15, 1971
Location: Sperry, OK (US)

History
May 25, 2004 - Wetumka, OK (US)
Convicted: 21 Charged - Dog-fighting - 141 pitbulls seized

Sentence: Pled guilty to the following felony charges on December 20, 2005: One count of possessing dogs for the purpose of fighting, one count of encouraging dogs to fight, and one count of facilitating a dog fight. As part of a plea agreement, Johnson's sentence was deferred, and he was placed on 5 years probation. He was ordered to pay a $2,000.00 fine, $1,216.00 for court costs, and restitution in the amount of $5,000.00.

Feb 12, 2003 - Skiatook, OK (US)
Alleged: NFL football player dog-fighting

Feb 2000 - Skiatook, OK (US) Dismissed (Conditional): Dog-fighting

Notes: deferred prosecution on the condition he get rid of his dogs and stay away from dogfights.

Notes:
Height: 6-0 Weight: 215 Born: 1/15/71

College: Northern Illinois/ NFL Experience: 6 yrs.

Leshon Eugene Johnson, 33, of Haskellhas been charged with Racketeering, conspiracy, keeping a dog for fighting, instigating a dogfight, facilitating a dogfight, cruelty to animals.

[packinpatland]

Now isn't that lovely. Was he in the same rookie class as Vick?

[Bretsky]

Now isn't that lovely. Was he in the same rookie class as Vick?


I think he was a bit before Vick.

Green Bay acutally drafted LeShon Johnson in the third round before he went to play a couple more years for the Cardinals.

He roomed with Travis Jersey and they were both known for having pit bulls and I think they actually were disciplined for having some wild animals at their residence that were not legal.

[RashanGary]

I watched the special on ESPN. It was horrible.

I can't believe people like watching this shit. I really hope he goes to jail for this.

[Bretsky]

I watched the special on ESPN. It was horrible.

I can't believe people like watching this shit. I really hope he goes to jail for this.

Me too

Horrible Human's beings do this to animals that are trained to hurt other beings.

[Rastak]

I watched the special on ESPN. It was horrible.

I can't believe people like watching this shit. I really hope he goes to jail for this.

Me too

Horrible Human's beings do this to animals that are trained to hurt other beings.


I just can't believe anyone would willingly engage in this shit. I'm honestly at a loss for words. What sort of uncaring animal would you have to be to engage in this? Animals are stupid, but people are suppose to be able to think. Vick has the brains of an animal himself if you ask me.

[RashanGary]

Me too

Horrible Human's beings do this to animals that are trained to hurt other beings.

I turned my head as much as possible but I still saw about half of it. It was as bad as anything I've seen. At least guns kill people quickly. This is the equivilant of seeing someone tortured through a slow death. It was just awfull.

[RashanGary]

I just can't believe anyone would willingly engage in this shit. I'm honestly at a loss for words.

That is exactly what I thought. Just horrible. I really hope he goes to jail. The NFL better not go easy on this either.

[MJZiggy]

It's hard for small town officials to pull the trigger on local heros. In Vick's case, he probably makes in 2 weeks what the sheriff, deputies, and local prosecutor earn in a year. If the athlete has donated to the community than it gets even harder. Some of these guys will not be in their positions forever and they don't want to be known as the guy who took down the local star and cut off the donations to the community.

There is another side as well, dog and cock fighting is not that uncommon in rural America. I'll bet you anything that these officials ALREADY KNEW what was going on and had turned a blind eye to it. Worse still, they might have been paid off. $30-40,000 for one fight indicates the kind of money involved. You better believe that some county deputies can be bought for far less.

Besides all that, you can bet that local law enforcement knew exactly everywhere in their county dog fighting is taking place. Nobody can keep a secret and pick up a local for drug possession and he'll start talking. Just ask the locals. Some knew exactly where Michael Vick's house was and that he had 50-60 cages of Pit Bulls. Gee...rumors of dog fights, pit bulls, Michael Vick's relatives = what?

The foot dragging is probably because they realize that law enforcement is not clean in this either. Just imagine if friends of Vick, say a bigwig attorney in Atlanta for example, calls up and drops the hint that if Vick is indicted that he will implicate local officials. The result is chaos. These guys will turn on each other in order to save their rears.

The safest course is to claim insufficient evidence implicating Vick. I bet there is a lot of pressure on the Commonwealth Attorney to rule this way. Anything other than this will get very messy for them.

My guess is that everyone knows the truth here. It just depends how far back they want to peal this onion.

I can see the point in what you're saying and if I had to guess, I'd say you're right, the problem for them, like I said before, is that there will also be pressure coming from the other direction. The story has received national attention and no matter how much the locals want it to go away, do you think the news agencies hungry for a story, or PETA hungry for a high profile conviction to make a point will let it die so easily? I know that Goodell has his eye on the investigation as well, so it will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

[esoxx]

man, if thats his dogs and thats what he wants to do, thats his business.

Yes, committing a felony by fighting dogs is his business. Now that the light's been shined on his activities, he can deal with the fallout from his illegal side hobby.

[FritzDontBlitz]

it was chilling reading the informants assertion that "its just an animal", as if that explains it away. just imagine: some of those animals have mauled small children to death because they mistook the child for another dog.

1. i hope vick rolls over and helps the nfl/nba/mlb ban every player involved in this incredibly brutal "sport." not that i expect them to. i doubt the nfl will do a damn thing UNLESS someone is caught fighting killer dogs decked out in nfl merchandise, or chewing through rookie playing cards.

2. i hope that one day soon the usa bans the possession and sale of that breed, making it a felony to even be in possession of one. they are called "pit" bulls for very good reason.

3. i hope every athlete involved is put UNDER the jail.

[pbmax]

This is an entirely reasonable line of thinking. However, on the subject of bringin down a local hero, Vick is from Newport News and would seem to be a newcomer to the area where the home in question is located.

So I am not sure hometown hero extends to here (I am really not sure how big he is in Virginia, so it could extend to all communities) but I could easily see that not everyone's hands here are clean. Their cupability could go back long before Vick moved to town. Could even be why he selected the area.


There is another side as well, dog and cock fighting is not that uncommon in rural America. I'll bet you anything that these officials ALREADY KNEW what was going on and had turned a blind eye to it...

Besides all that, you can bet that local law enforcement knew exactly everywhere in their county dog fighting is taking place. Nobody can keep a secret and pick up a local for drug possession and he'll start talking. Just ask the locals. Some knew exactly where Michael Vick's house was and that he had 50-60 cages of Pit Bulls...

The foot dragging is probably because they realize that law enforcement is not clean in this either.

[GBRulz]

I hope this scumbag is banned from the NFL and is not allowed to own ANY animal for the rest of his life.

What bothers me is that this is going to focus on how bad pit bulls are and that they should be banned, blah blah blah. The pit bull is just a breed, the human is what makes them killers. A few of my friends have pit bulls and they are big babies. Now, I won't deny that they have aggressive genes, but so do German Shepards, Rottweilers, chows, Doberman's, etc...so, are we going to ban all those breeds, too? I'd like to see people being held accountable instead of an outright ban on certain breeds of dogs. From what I understand, Denver has a city-wide ban on Pit Bulls.

Vick is starting to make Pacman look like a saint...that's troubling.

BTW - isn't Fergie a breeder of pit bulls? I know he has a bunch of them and I'm pretty sure his Mom runs some breeding farm or something. I wouldn't doubt if he was at least investigated.

[MJZiggy]

Whether Ferguson should be investigated is an interesting question, though. Should every pit bull breeder in the country be investigated? It's quite possible that Ferguson breeds them for the same reason that NORMAL people own therm--simple love of the breed.

[Kiwon]

The story has received national attention and no matter how much the locals want it to go away, do you think the news agencies hungry for a story, or PETA hungry for a high profile conviction to make a point will let it die so easily? I know that Goodell has his eye on the investigation as well, so it will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

In a perfect world, if he's guilty he would be punished. But we don't live in a perfect world.

The public's moral outrage is fleeting. People will forget about it and if he has a great season there will be significant pressure not to prosecute him. Celebrities are held to a different standard in our society.

Look at Vick's arrogance now - "the world supports Michael Vick" (paraphrasing). He's never been held accountable for anything and the Black community generally has a non-judgmental, anti-snitching undercurrent running through it. Add to this that Vick's a star and it's more likely that the informant will suddenly disappear, be discredited or get forgetful before Vick is convicted of a serious crime.

On one side: The Black community doesn't want him convicted. The general football fan doesn't want him convicted. The local prosecutors probably don't want to convict him. The NFL doesn't want to lose a star or antagonize their Black fan base.

On the other side: The Law and PETA. PETA and its supporters want to make an example out of him but they are generally regarded as left-wing extremists. Their own negative publicity cancels them out. This case will come down to whether or not public officials will investigate fairly and uphold the Law.

Vick might cop a plea to a misdemeanor or something like that but I can't imagine that he'll be convicted of anything serious. He'll go on being arrogant and people will continue to buy tickets to see him play. That's my prediction of what will happen.

[MJZiggy]

PETA may be too far out there, but the Humane Society and ASPCA are not. Also, much as the NFL may not want to lose a star, Goodell is bound and determined to clean up the NFL and he himself has commented on the progress of the investigation. Look how Portis and Samuels (who has since apologized for his comments) have been villified. Actually, I agreed with some of what Samuels said and the point he was trying to make before he opened his mouth one too many times. Vick shouldn't be crucified before he is convicted, but on the other side, someone's gonna have to pay the price for this one. If Vick doesn't take the fall, then he sells out his own cousin for it.

[digitaldean]

The story has received national attention and no matter how much the locals want it to go away, do you think the news agencies hungry for a story, or PETA hungry for a high profile conviction to make a point will let it die so easily? I know that Goodell has his eye on the investigation as well, so it will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

In a perfect world, if he's guilty he would be punished. But we don't live in a perfect world.

On one side: The Black community doesn't want him convicted. The general football fan doesn't want him convicted. The local prosecutors probably don't want to convict him. The NFL doesn't want to lose a star or antagonize their Black fan base.


Vick might cop a plea to a misdemeanor or something like that but I can't imagine that he'll be convicted of anything serious. He'll go on being arrogant and people will continue to buy tickets to see him play. That's my prediction of what will happen.

I don't agree. I believe the average football fan WOULD want him punished. This isn't any PETA activated type of scandal.

I think people of most any ethnic background would be appalled by this. Doofuses like Clinton Portis may not agree, but I am hoping his voice isn't indicative of the African-American community.

First off, if this informant's statements prove accurate, then Vick should banished for 1 year. Hornung and Karras were suspended for a year for gambling on football, this putz should be suspended 1 year for betting on something that is a felony in 48 of 50 states!

[Kiwon]

I don't agree. I believe the average football fan WOULD want him punished.

To clarify...eight, nine months from today after indictments have been made and the case actually gets to court I doubt that there will be enough (numbers-wise) of average football fans calling for justice.

It's just hard for people to maintain that level of outrage over that length of time.

Even today, there are many who would agree with Clinton Portis' attitude - live and let live. It's his personal activity on private property. Dog and cock fighting exists for a reason - a certain segment of society likes it. Portis said he knew where to go in his community to see it. I don't think he's lying.

Vick's a hood. That's obvious. He's gotten away with so much already and that's why he apparently doesn't fear prosecution.

[GBRulz]

Whether Ferguson should be investigated is an interesting question, though. Should every pit bull breeder in the country be investigated? It's quite possible that Ferguson breeds them for the same reason that NORMAL people own therm--simple love of the breed.

I'm not at all saying every breeder in the country should be investigated. but if they are going to go after Vick on this, I just have a feeling that every NFL player affiliated with pit bulls for whatever reason, will at least be investigated.

[Rastak]

Whether Ferguson should be investigated is an interesting question, though. Should every pit bull breeder in the country be investigated? It's quite possible that Ferguson breeds them for the same reason that NORMAL people own therm--simple love of the breed.

I'm not at all saying every breeder in the country should be investigated. but if they are going to go after Vick on this, I just have a feeling that every NFL player affiliated with pit bulls for whatever reason, will at least be investigated.


He was fighting them not just breeding them. They shouldn't go after dog breeders, they prosecute scumbag dog fighters.

[Fred's Slacks]

"They'll let this other thing go -- what is it called? UFC [Ultimate Fighting Championship]?" he asked. "That is every bit as bad -- you know, that's terrible. But then you have thousands of people that cheer, rah, rah, and they really love that. You see guys get their heads busted, you know, and they get their arms messed up, their legs twisted almost off. But then they fuss over this here, is wrong."

This is one of the more naive things I have ever read. Dog fighting is nothing close to the same thing as UFC. For one, these UFC fighters are paid for what they do and they do so under their consent. These dogs have no choice in how they are raised. Thats the smaller difference. The big difference is that in the UFC there is a long list of fouls to protect fighters from serious injury. On top of that, a fighter can end the fight at any time with a tap out and even if they can't physically tap out they can verbally tap out. I was getting physically sick listening to the dogs yelping as the other dog was thrashing his throat. Meanwhile the hicks cheer them on. Yeah, that's the same.

I am not a UFC fan and I am not condoning what they do but their is no way you can say it is as inhumane as these dog fights. I hope Vick and any other athlete found to be involved get banned for life from their sports. I know it won't happen but I still hope it does.

[RashanGary]

I heap praise on ESPN for showing what really happens. One can imagine, but I just sort of try to ignore it or not really think about what acctually happens. By showing it on TV, it brought a certain realness to it. It is truely brutal. I hope fans take a stand in Atlanta and boycott the Falcons untill Vick is gone. Even if it is 10% of fans, I hope the Blanc's suffer for this. They know what is going on and they turn their heads. They deserve to lose in this too; greedy bastards.

[Partial]

I heap praise on ESPN for showing what really happens. One can imagine, but I just sort of try to ignore it or not really think about what acctually happens. By showing it on TV, it brought a certain realness to it. It is truely brutal. I hope fans take a stand in Atlanta and boycott the Falcons untill Vick is gone. Even if it is 10% of fans, I hope the Blanc's suffer for this. They know what is going on and they turn their heads. They deserve to lose in this too; greedy bastards.

Why?

What happened to innocent until proven guilty. This is America after all..

[RashanGary]

The law rightfully holds off punishment untill PROVEN guilty but that should't stop the court of public opinion from aknowledging the obvious.

Vick is involved in dog fighting just like OJ killed his ex-wife. Just because it can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt doens't mean it never happened. Why is OJ in a high speed chase after his wife died when if he didn't knwo she was dead? Was it proven? No, but it is pretty obvious. I respect the way the law is upheld becuae one innocent man being put to death is worse than 20 guilty men getting off but you are on some serious crack if you don't think Vick is involved in this. He owns a property with dozens of pit-bulls and many of them are scarred as well as other evidence of dog fighting going on. Do you really think he wasn't involved? If it's not proven, he gets off rightfully so but I'm pretty sure that Vick was aware and involved. Either that or he is one of the dumbest, most nieve morons to grace the NFL. He's dumping money into this underground dog fighting ring and has no clue? Yeah right, and Barroids head didn't inflate because of sterroids.

[Partial]

There really isn't any proof yet. I will withhold judgement until all the facts are established.

He never lived at the mansion according to sources.

Anybody out there can make a false statement to the press saying "hell yeah my dog fought his dog. That cat came to play with the big money!".

How do you know that one of the dozens of the mansions employees involved in maintaining the manner didn't bring the dogs in? How do you know they didn't host dog fights there behind Vick's back because it was a huge, private place to do it?

[RashanGary]

There really isn't any proof yet. I will withhold judgement until all the facts are established.

He never lived at the mansion according to sources.

Anybody out there can make a false statement to the press saying "hell yeah my dog fought his dog. That cat came to play with the big money!".

Parial, the guys had a ton of money invested in this place. Again, either he is a complete idiot and just dumps hundreds of thousands of dollars into this mansion and has no clue why there are dogs (scarred and unscareed) at his mansion or he is involved. I unserstand the importance of innocent undtil proven but it doesn't mean that a guy is innocent and in this case, like iwth Bonds, it is fairly obvious although not proven.

[Partial]

There really isn't any proof yet. I will withhold judgement until all the facts are established.

He never lived at the mansion according to sources.

Anybody out there can make a false statement to the press saying "hell yeah my dog fought his dog. That cat came to play with the big money!".

Parial, the guys had a ton of money invested in this place. Again, either he is a complete idiot and just dumps hundreds of thousands of dollars into this mansion and has no clue why there are dogs (scarred and unscareed) at his mansion or he is involved. I unserstand the importance of innocent undtil proven but it doesn't mean that a guy is innocent and in this case, like iwth Bonds, it is fairly obvious although not proven.

How many people that have 9 figures in the bank have multiple mansions that they've enver been to? I am sure upwards of 50-60% of them at the minimum. If he has truly never been there as he has said, how can he be guilty?

Even though you all seem to think he is a punk, what has he done in the past to make you believe this? Aside from the Jewelry containing water bottle(which some douche down in the PO wanted to make into a big story by staying he smelled mj), he has stayed out of trouble for the most part.

You guys don't consider Ahman Green a bad person and a villian when he was in the news constantly for allegedly beating his wife, etc.

Bonds has been indicted over the allegations and taken to court. He is not under risk of being convicted for any steroid laws. He'd be in trouble for comitting perjury. A very different offense.

Innocent until proven guilty. No one knows the true facts but Vick. My guess is you'll see several more of these big media leaks and interviews with anonymous sources(who in there right mind is going to admit to comitting a felony just to rat someone else out? Sounds fishy to me).

[Scott Campbell]

Innocent until proven guilty.


That rule holds true in a court of law. The court of public opinion is a different matter.

[Rastak]

There really isn't any proof yet. I will withhold judgement until all the facts are established.

He never lived at the mansion according to sources.

Anybody out there can make a false statement to the press saying "hell yeah my dog fought his dog. That cat came to play with the big money!".

Parial, the guys had a ton of money invested in this place. Again, either he is a complete idiot and just dumps hundreds of thousands of dollars into this mansion and has no clue why there are dogs (scarred and unscareed) at his mansion or he is involved. I unserstand the importance of innocent undtil proven but it doesn't mean that a guy is innocent and in this case, like iwth Bonds, it is fairly obvious although not proven.

How many people that have 9 figures in the bank have multiple mansions that they've enver been to? I am sure upwards of 50-60% of them at the minimum. If he has truly never been there as he has said, how can he be guilty?

Even though you all seem to think he is a punk, what has he done in the past to make you believe this? Aside from the Jewelry containing water bottle(which some douche down in the PO wanted to make into a big story by staying he smelled mj), he has stayed out of trouble for the most part.

You guys don't consider Ahman Green a bad person and a villian when he was in the news constantly for allegedly beating his wife, etc.

Bonds has been indicted over the allegations and taken to court. He is not under risk of being convicted for any steroid laws. He'd be in trouble for comitting perjury. A very different offense.

Innocent until proven guilty. No one knows the true facts but Vick. My guess is you'll see several more of these big media leaks and interviews with anonymous sources(who in there right mind is going to admit to comitting a felony just to rat someone else out? Sounds fishy to me).

So maybe you could explain a pet store owner in town who indicated Vick himself had purchased dog supplies on occassion. You think he mailed the stuff accross town to his own house and didn;t realize all the dog fighting stuff was on his property. You REALLY REALLY have to delude yourself to believe that.

[Tarlam!]

Sack Vick.

[RashanGary]

Do you know how hard it is to prove something? VERY, VERY hard. AS much as it's not 100% proven, it is 100% obvious and the Blancs should cut his ass and the NFL should blacklist him. They won't and I hope fans with any shred of humanity hit the blancs where it hurts; in their greedy, fat pocket book.

[the_idle_threat]

Next to Vick, the horsef**kers look like decent guys. :shock:

[Rastak]

Next to Vick, the horsef**kers look like decent guys. :shock:


:lol: :lol:


I shouldn't laugh, it's true.

[MJZiggy]

Next to Vick, the horsef**kers look like decent guys. :shock:


:lol: :lol:


I shouldn't laugh, it's true.

I know, but you have to sorta... :oops:

[cpk1994]

How 'bout the CFL...

Having Ricky Williams and Vick on the same team would be great. Unfortunately, there is yet to be a team named the Outlaws.

If only the XFL was still in business.

[FritzDontBlitz]

interesting thing about all this is that the house was raided as part of DRUG investigation, i'm wondering what happened to that part of the story??? :o

[packinpatland]

No matter how this unfolds, it doesn't appear to have a happy ending, for anyone involved.
This sort of thing has a way of tarnishing all pro sports.

[the_idle_threat]

interesting thing about all this is that the house was raided as part of DRUG investigation, i'm wondering what happened to that part of the story??? :o

When the doors were being kicked down they had the dogs snort up all the evidence?

[GrnBay007]

Innocent until proven guilty.


That rule holds true in a court of law. The court of public opinion is a different matter.

Even if Vick is never charged in this it will not mean he was not involved. Dog fighting is an underground operation and I would guess having a high profile athlete involved it would be even further underground...IF he was involved. Since all this started I had the opportunity to talk to a recently retired cop and asked him about dog fighting and whether they ever had cases of it here (smaller city). He said surprisingly yes. He said it ran in streaks and they would receive information from veterinarians but most often it would lead to a dead end. He did say he saw a room once where a dog fight was held and it was completely disgusting.

[Kiwon]

Next to Vick, the horsef**kers look like decent guys. :shock:

I'm-in-the-mood-for-a-jihad agrees. He says, "Mammal to Mammal love was invented in Iran. It was our first national sport. Ah, Black Beauty…. Now, there was a horse no man could tame."

[prsnfoto]

The story has received national attention and no matter how much the locals want it to go away, do you think the news agencies hungry for a story, or PETA hungry for a high profile conviction to make a point will let it die so easily? I know that Goodell has his eye on the investigation as well, so it will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

In a perfect world, if he's guilty he would be punished. But we don't live in a perfect world.

The public's moral outrage is fleeting. People will forget about it and if he has a great season there will be significant pressure not to prosecute him. Celebrities are held to a different standard in our society.

Look at Vick's arrogance now - "the world supports Michael Vick" (paraphrasing). He's never been held accountable for anything and the Black community generally has a non-judgmental, anti-snitching undercurrent running through it. Add to this that Vick's a star and it's more likely that the informant will suddenly disappear, be discredited or get forgetful before Vick is convicted of a serious crime.

On one side: The Black community doesn't want him convicted. The general football fan doesn't want him convicted. The local prosecutors probably don't want to convict him. The NFL doesn't want to lose a star or antagonize their Black fan base.

On the other side: The Law and PETA. PETA and its supporters want to make an example out of him but they are generally regarded as left-wing extremists. Their own negative publicity cancels them out. This case will come down to whether or not public officials will investigate fairly and uphold the Law.

Vick might cop a plea to a misdemeanor or something like that but I can't imagine that he'll be convicted of anything serious. He'll go on being arrogant and people will continue to buy tickets to see him play. That's my prediction of what will happen.


I agree completely with you except the part of the NFL they will nail him to the wall cause if they don't every Pacman Jones and tank Williams out there will sue their pants of for not practicing what they preach. I also think the new coach and and Mr. Blank may have had enough there may be a morals clause in his contract that allows them to save the 20 million a year and avoid PETA and twenty other orginized groups picketing the Falcons for the next five years. You are right about the rich, rednecks and blacks though they could give a shit, at least most of them.

[MadtownPacker]

There really isn't any proof yet. I will withhold judgement until all the facts are established.

When has that ever stopped yo before?


He never lived at the mansion according to sources.

Your sources? Hahahaha, let me guess, some guy who buys chainlink fence at where you work?


Even though you all seem to think he is a punk, what has he done in the past to make you believe this? Aside from the Jewelry containing water bottle(which some douche down in the PO wanted to make into a big story by staying he smelled mj), he has stayed out of trouble for the most part.

Well lets see, "Ron Mexico"? You know, the guy that lied about who he was and gave some broad a lifetime STD? Yeah, Im sure he is trustable.


Innocent until proven guilty. No one knows the true facts but Vick. My guess is you'll see several more of these big media leaks and interviews with anonymous sources(who in there right mind is going to admit to comitting a felony just to rat someone else out? Sounds fishy to me).

You obviously dont know anything about how criminals and cops work. For all you know the guy who is snitching on vick has some other cases pending and will work out a deal for giving up vick. Then vick will also be given a chance to work out a deal for someone else's head tp save his own ass. It will keep going until someone stays quiet . That guy will be the one who gets the heavy load of charges. That is the way it works in the REAL world Partial. Not the one you searched on Google.

BTW - I think you dont even believe what you are saying and likely just enjoy being on the other end of the "mob" mentality like you have in the past.

[Rastak]

There really isn't any proof yet. I will withhold judgement until all the facts are established.

When has that ever stopped yo before?


He never lived at the mansion according to sources.

Your sources? Hahahaha, let me guess, some guy who buys chainlink fence at where you work?


Even though you all seem to think he is a punk, what has he done in the past to make you believe this? Aside from the Jewelry containing water bottle(which some douche down in the PO wanted to make into a big story by staying he smelled mj), he has stayed out of trouble for the most part.

Well lets see, "Ron Mexico"? You know, the guy that lied about who he was and gave some broad a lifetime STD? Yeah, Im sure he is trustable.


Innocent until proven guilty. No one knows the true facts but Vick. My guess is you'll see several more of these big media leaks and interviews with anonymous sources(who in there right mind is going to admit to comitting a felony just to rat someone else out? Sounds fishy to me).

You obviously dont know anything about how criminals and cops work. For all you know the guy who is snitching on vick has some other cases pending and will work out a deal for giving up vick. Then vick will also be given a chance to work out a deal for someone else's head tp save his own ass. It will keep going until someone stays quiet . That guy will be the one who gets the heavy load of charges. That is the way it works in the REAL world Partial. Not the one you searched on Google.

BTW - I think you dont even believe what you are saying and likely just enjoy being on the other end of the "mob" mentality like you have in the past.


Good points Mad. What kind of disturbs me is the rumblings of there being a dog fighting sub culture in the NFL....now I agree THAT is definately rumor and shouldn't be treated with the same attention Michael "asshole" Vick is getting. But if true....wow.....WTF? I thought it was all humans playing in the NFL.

[RashanGary]

I agree Mad. Good points with the snitching to get out and also with Partial just trying to be anti-mob mentality.

I'm not a big mob mentality guy because I believe people should be able to do whatever they damn well please as long as it doesn't hurt others. Drugs, drinking, prostetution, gambling, whatever...I could care less and it bothers me to see people gang up on people who don't hurt others. The problem with Dick is that he does hurt others and it's disgusting what he's been doing to animals as of late. I'm more than happy to jump in with this mob and the evidence is overwhelming even if he's not convicted of a damn thing.

[RashanGary]

pitbulls are really cool dogs. They have a lot of energy in my expereince and they are a little intimidating but they love to play and the ones I've met love people. Just thought I'd add that....:)

[Joemailman]

SNL Skit about Michael Vick

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5403127121800446296&q=michael+vick

[packinpatland]

pitbulls are really cool dogs. They have a lot of energy in my expereince and they are a little intimidating but they love to play and the ones I've met love people. Just thought I'd add that....:)

Aside from the fact that they have the 'killer instincts' bred into them, they are probably very cuddly, and all families with little children should have several. :roll:
I myself, will stick to the dumber than dumb Golden Retrievers.

[Bretsky]

pitbulls are really cool dogs. They have a lot of energy in my expereince and they are a little intimidating but they love to play and the ones I've met love people. Just thought I'd add that....:)

Aside from the fact that they have the 'killer instincts' bred into them, they are probably very cuddly, and all families with little children should have several. :roll:
I myself, will stick to the dumber than dumb Golden Retrievers.


I have a hard time with the"killer instincts bred" into them idea. I know they are more apt to have these tendencies. I know a ton of Pit Bulls that are wonderful pets. They just need stronger owners and most then turn out fine IMO.

[Patler]

pitbulls are really cool dogs. They have a lot of energy in my expereince and they are a little intimidating but they love to play and the ones I've met love people. Just thought I'd add that....:)

Aside from the fact that they have the 'killer instincts' bred into them, they are probably very cuddly, and all families with little children should have several. :roll:
I myself, will stick to the dumber than dumb Golden Retrievers.

I have problems with condemning a breed. Dobermans, Rottweilers and German Shepherds also have been bred to be aggressive, expecially the Dobermans. All can be trained.

"Personalties" ( or is it "dogalities"?) vary significantly from one bred to the next. People need to know that and select their dogs according to what they can handle/tolerate. Then, owners need to be held responsible for the actions of their pets.

[Rastak]

pitbulls are really cool dogs. They have a lot of energy in my expereince and they are a little intimidating but they love to play and the ones I've met love people. Just thought I'd add that....:)

Aside from the fact that they have the 'killer instincts' bred into them, they are probably very cuddly, and all families with little children should have several. :roll:
I myself, will stick to the dumber than dumb Golden Retrievers.

I have problems with condemning a breed. Dobermans, Rottweilers and German Shepherds also have been bred to be aggressive, expecially the Dobermans. All can be trained.

"Personalties" ( or is it "dogalities"?) vary significantly from one bred to the next. People need to know that and select their dogs according to what they can handle/tolerate. Then, owners need to be held responsible for the actions of their pets.


Exactly......Pit Bulls can be fine dogs...it's the dregs of human kind that train them otherwise.


I never lament the end of human dregs.....

[Patler]

Please don't anyone take what I am going to write in the wrong way. I think dog fighting is a disgusting event, I feel the same about bull fighting, cock fighting and any other controlled event in which animals are tortured for human entertainment..

However, the visceral reaction most of us have to watching one dog kill another dog results from the rather unique relationship between humans and dogs. We empathize with the victim dog. Do you feel the same way when other animals battle to the death? Have you ever watched a cat kill a mouse? Have you ever watched the way a mousing cat will torment and torture the mouse, letting it "escape" only to recapture it again and again? Some cats will do this an incredibly long time, until the mouse is too weak to walk, and totally submits to its death. Now you may say this is necessary, for food. But that isn't completely true. Feral cats are a big problem in some areas, and many kill for sport and exercise, often not even eating their kill.

I think that is the perspective some in dog fighting have. They think the dogs are just doing what is natural for them. Of course where their argument falls down is that it is anything but a natural setting. In nature the animals are not forced to fight. One can avoid the other, escape, etc. In the fighting pit they can not.

[Partial]

There really isn't any proof yet. I will withhold judgement until all the facts are established.

When has that ever stopped yo before?


He never lived at the mansion according to sources.

Your sources? Hahahaha, let me guess, some guy who buys chainlink fence at where you work?


Even though you all seem to think he is a punk, what has he done in the past to make you believe this? Aside from the Jewelry containing water bottle(which some douche down in the PO wanted to make into a big story by staying he smelled mj), he has stayed out of trouble for the most part.

Well lets see, "Ron Mexico"? You know, the guy that lied about who he was and gave some broad a lifetime STD? Yeah, Im sure he is trustable.


Innocent until proven guilty. No one knows the true facts but Vick. My guess is you'll see several more of these big media leaks and interviews with anonymous sources(who in there right mind is going to admit to comitting a felony just to rat someone else out? Sounds fishy to me).

You obviously dont know anything about how criminals and cops work. For all you know the guy who is snitching on vick has some other cases pending and will work out a deal for giving up vick. Then vick will also be given a chance to work out a deal for someone else's head tp save his own ass. It will keep going until someone stays quiet . That guy will be the one who gets the heavy load of charges. That is the way it works in the REAL world Partial. Not the one you searched on Google.

BTW - I think you dont even believe what you are saying and likely just enjoy being on the other end of the "mob" mentality like you have in the past.

I do predict when all is said and done that he won't be found guilty of being involved with any of this stuff. I don't know that he is. I didn't say my sources, I said sources. He claims he knows nothing about it. I haven't read many of the news articles on this so I may be completely wrong on the evidence.

In the end, he is probably involved to some extent. It's on his property, so who knows. All we know for sure is that his mansion was raided by the feds and they found evidence linking him to dog fighting. It remains to be seen if there is a stronger case and more evidence or not. We shall see.

I'm not ready to throw him in jail until we see some firm evidence, though.

[Partial]

pitbulls are really cool dogs. They have a lot of energy in my expereince and they are a little intimidating but they love to play and the ones I've met love people. Just thought I'd add that....:)

My buddy has a pitbull. Cutest dog ever. I love that thing. It's so big and wobbly. Unfortunately, there is a bacteria that companies put in the mulch around here to preserve the color of it that the dog caught, and because of it she lost an eye. It's quite sad, but that is one happy, cute pooch.

[Partial]

pitbulls are really cool dogs. They have a lot of energy in my expereince and they are a little intimidating but they love to play and the ones I've met love people. Just thought I'd add that....:)

Aside from the fact that they have the 'killer instincts' bred into them, they are probably very cuddly, and all families with little children should have several. :roll:
I myself, will stick to the dumber than dumb Golden Retrievers.

Bulldogs are actually great with children. You just have to find the right breed. Look up articles about which dogs are best for kids, and more often than not they say Labs and sometimes bulldogs.

[PackerBlues]

Just wanted to pipe in with my two cents worth.


Had a Pitbull when I was about 14. It was one of the most loving animals you would ever want. The only thing we had to worry about with it around children was just the fact that it was big and clumsy and liked to put its paws on people. So, a small child might get knocked down or be scared. The only problem we ever had with the dog was when a younger neighbor girl, (and trust me.....not a bright kid at all) chased the dog into her parents garage, and shut the door. She then apparently chased it around the garage and got the dog excited and it "nipped" her hand.


A friend of mine had a Doberman that they had gotten from a shelter. To them, it was a very loving animal and obeyed them completely. However, nobody else could get near the dog or the house without fear that the damned thing would rip your throat out, it just went that damned wild.


My cousin had Rotweilers (escuse my spelling) . They were big dumb lovable beasts. They were always well behaved the few times I visited them, but they would jump up on you. Like I said, they were big dogs, and could easily knock a guy over if they caught you off balance. I never heard of them having problems with their dogs, but damn.....they were big stocky animals, I could only imagine what it would be like to piss one of em off, lol.

Also wanted to add, that I would think that if Vick is as into dog-fighting as certain people seem to be claiming, that he would take enough "pride" in it to have pictures or video tapes laying around. I am not suggesting that he would be stupid enough to leave something incriminating just laying out, but if he has been doing it for as long as people are claiming that he has.......over the years, he may have gotten sloppy about it.

[Rastak]

Please don't anyone take what I am going to write in the wrong way. I think dog fighting is a disgusting event, I feel the same about bull fighting, cock fighting and any other controlled event in which animals are tortured for human entertainment..

However, the visceral reaction most of us have to watching one dog kill another dog results from the rather unique relationship between humans and dogs. We empathize with the victim dog. Do you feel the same way when other animals battle to the death? Have you ever watched a cat kill a mouse? Have you ever watched the way a mousing cat will torment and torture the mouse, letting it "escape" only to recapture it again and again? Some cats will do this an incredibly long time, until the mouse is too weak to walk, and totally submits to its death. Now you may say this is necessary, for food. But that isn't completely true. Feral cats are a big problem in some areas, and many kill for sport and exercise, often not even eating their kill.

I think that is the perspective some in dog fighting have. They think the dogs are just doing what is natural for them. Of course where their argument falls down is that it is anything but a natural setting. In nature the animals are not forced to fight. One can avoid the other, escape, etc. In the fighting pit they can not.



Hmmm, an odd perspective. I guess if we breed cats and mice both, and then stage the event while everyone cheers we could then compare the two.

[MJZiggy]

Bulldogs are actually great with children. You just have to find the right breed. Look up articles about which dogs are best for kids, and more often than not they say Labs and sometimes bulldogs.

Bulldogs and pit bulls are not the same breed. A pit bull is far closer to an AmStaff than a bulldog.

[packinpatland]

My cousin had Rotweilers (escuse my spelling) . They were big dumb lovable beasts. They were always well behaved the few times I visited them, but they would jump up on you. Like I said, they were big dogs, and could easily knock a guy over if they caught you off balance. I never heard of them having problems with their dogs, but damn.....they were big stocky animals, I could only imagine what it would be like to piss one of em off, lol.


Anyone 'read' Good Dog Carl? :)

[MJZiggy]

My cousin had Rotweilers (escuse my spelling) . They were big dumb lovable beasts. They were always well behaved the few times I visited them, but they would jump up on you. Like I said, they were big dogs, and could easily knock a guy over if they caught you off balance. I never heard of them having problems with their dogs, but damn.....they were big stocky animals, I could only imagine what it would be like to piss one of em off, lol.


Anyone 'read' Good Dog Carl? :)

Yes. Carl Goes to Daycare. Just who I want taking care of a school...

[packinpatland]

I understand all that's been said about pit bulls, and them being ok within a family setting. I've seen it happen. But I've also heard about, ones being put down for 'out of the blue' attacking a child.
We're talking generations of in-breeding just for a sole purpose. Isn't there some other breed that would make a better family pet?
The other breeds mentioned are bred to be protective, guard dogs, not bred for the sole purpose of fighting.

Isn't it alittle like taking a wild animal and taming it? Those instincts are always there.

[Rastak]

I understand all that's been said about pit bulls, and them being ok within a family setting. I've seen it happen. But I've also heard about, ones being put down for 'out of the blue' attacking a child.
We're talking generations of in-breeding just for a sole purpose. Isn't there some other breed that would make a better family pet?
The other breeds mentioned are bred to be protective, guard dogs, not bred for the sole purpose of fighting.

Isn't it alittle like taking a wild animal and taming it? Those instincts are always there.


I'm not an expert but that's not what I've heard. I would agree if I were picking a family pet that isn't the breed I'd look at, however.

[run pMc]

Just to chime in...

I have owned a pit bull (a rescue) for over 7 years...and I have no regrets. She is one of the smartest, sweetest dogs I have ever met, and I certainly don't worry about it tearing my throat out in the middle of the night. She's great around people (even small children). I look at dogs the same way as kids -- most are good, a very few are bad, but a major factor in their behavior is in how they are raised and treated.

I personally think dog fighting is cruel and should be punishable by law. I view my dog as a member of my family vs. a piece of property that can be used and disposed of at my leisure. I understand that not everyone feels that way, but I think it's sad.

[MJZiggy]

Me either, Rastak. Give me a dopey mutt anyday...

[Partial]

Bulldogs are actually great with children. You just have to find the right breed. Look up articles about which dogs are best for kids, and more often than not they say Labs and sometimes bulldogs.

Bulldogs and pit bulls are not the same breed. A pit bull is far closer to an AmStaff than a bulldog.


ahhh, my mistake then. I guess that is not even close to true then. Bulldogs are cute and nice. Pitbulls just look mean.

http://www.galapagos.it/Animali/Mammiferi/Baby_Bulldog.jpg
http://pics.hoobly.com/full/PL1EL43XB537H2YUPA.jpg

[packinpatland]

How long does it take them to grow into all that exta skin?
He is so cute!

[MJZiggy]

Right.

http://www.countrybulls.com/Images/Champion_English_Bulldog_Ch.jpg


http://www.allaboutpetswa.com/dog-pitbull.jpg

[MadtownPacker]

I do predict when all is said and done that he won't be found guilty of being involved with any of this stuff. I don't know that he is. I didn't say my sources, I said sources. He claims he knows nothing about it. I haven't read many of the news articles on this so I may be completely wrong on the evidence.

In the end, he is probably involved to some extent. It's on his property, so who knows. All we know for sure is that his mansion was raided by the feds and they found evidence linking him to dog fighting. It remains to be seen if there is a stronger case and more evidence or not. We shall see.

I'm not ready to throw him in jail until we see some firm evidence, though.
Hate to say it but I think you are right about him not being found guilty. Youre also correct about not saying your sources, my mistake.

But he is still a piece of garbage even without the dogfight allegations.

I have been to witness to a few pitbull fights in my younger days. I didnt like them cuz I think it takes a low brand of human to force anything to fight. If two dogs are loose and they get into a fight is one thing but the truth is greed, ego, and cruelty are all that dog fighting is really about.

[Fritz]

It's just a mean thing to do, that's all. If you like fighting so much, then go fight someone (who wants to) yourself.

I see the Atlanta organization crumbling beneath the weight of the accumulated Ron Mexico baggage.

[Kiwon]

Back to Pacman....

NFLPA supports Pacman Jones in appeal

NFL.com wire reports

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (May 29, 2007) -- The NFL Players Association is supporting Tennessee Titans cornerback Adam "Pacman" Jones' appeal for leniency to league commissioner Roger Goodell.

"Your suspension of Jones without pay for the entire 2007 season is clearly excessive and much greater than discipline imposed upon other players for the same or similar incidents," the NFLPA said in a letter to Goodell on May 23.

The letter, obtained by The Associated Press, was signed by staff counsel Thomas J. DePaso.

The union generally supports players when they are disciplined by the league or teams -- it's a standard part of protecting players' jobs. Two years ago, it took Terrell Owens' suspension by the Philadelphia Eagles to arbitration.

Goodell suspended Jones on April 10 for a series of off-field incidents in two seasons with the Titans. Jones and his attorneys appealed the suspension May 11; Goodell has not issued a decision on the appeal.

Jones had been suspended partly because of pending charges, which the union wrote "violates clearly established principles of employment and labor law."

The letter said "no player has ever been disciplined by the commissioner for conduct relating to criminal charges while they are pending."

Jones' punishment stemmed from arrests in February for obstruction of police in Georgia and public intoxication and disorderly conduct last August. Goodell also cited Jones for failing to report the February arrest and a March arrest on marijuana possession charges. The marijuana charges were later dismissed.

In Las Vegas, police have recommended charges against Jones for inciting a fight inside a strip club in February that resulted in a triple shooting and left one man paralyzed.

The Georgia case has been postponed until fall.

Manny Arora, Jones' lawyer, said the letter "speaks for itself."

"The NFLPA has outlined their position in their letter," he said, declining to comment further.

The Titans, meanwhile, have signed veteran cornerback Nick Harper and used their top draft pick this year on safety Michael Griffin, who might be shifted to cornerback.

Jones, in two seasons, became a shutdown cornerback and dangerous punt returner. He was the sixth overall selection and first defensive player taken in the 2005 NFL Draft.

[Bretsky]

HERE COMES MORE ABOUT LORD VICK

[Bretsky]

By George Dohrmann

The brick house Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick owned on Moonlight Road in rural Smithfield, Va., is painted white. It has a white door, a white fence and a huge white gate that opens on a spare front lawn holding a white birdbath. In the woods behind the house, out of view from the road, stand five smaller buildings. These are painted black -- not gray or charcoal, but pure black, as if they'd been dipped in ink. They are set off from the house by a fence, also painted black.

Kathy Strouse, an animal control officer, was standing in front of those outbuildings as night fell on April 25 when a simple question came to her: Why the black paint? A moment passed before Strouse had an answer. At night, when most dogfights are held, no one would know these buildings were here.
Strouse, 54, is a member of the Virginia Animal Fighting Task Force, a consortium of animal control and law enforcement officials from around the state. She serves as an expert witness in dogfighting trials and teaches investigative tactics to animal control officers nationwide. As she and officers from the Surry County sheriff's office probed each of the back buildings and the rest of the 15-acre property that night, she saw what she considers unmistakable evidence of a professional dogfighting operation.

In one building a scale hung from the ceiling. There were treadmills to exercise the animals and a "rape stand," a contraption that holds aggressive dogs in place during breeding. In other buildings Strouse found syringes as well as injectable diuretics and nutritional supplements commonly given to fighting dogs. Stuck in the ground between two buildings was a metal shaft with a tethering arm, designed to keep a dog walking in a circle. Like the treadmill, this setup can be used as part of what dogfighters call the "keep," the training regimen before a fight.
A long building held numerous kennels, each of which contained at least one dog. Most were American pit bull terriers. Some had wounds on their ears, necks and front legs. Contrary to early reports, those 30 or so dogs were not emaciated, nor were the roughly 30 pit bulls found in the woods, tied to car axles buried in the ground. "Give the dogfighter his due," Strouse says. "It is not in his interest to starve his dogs."

It was clear to Strouse, who has been an animal control officer for 22 years, that some of the animals had been used in fights, but not until she climbed a stepladder to the second story of the largest of the black buildings was she convinced that fights had been staged on the property. In a room about 16 feet square Strouse found blood: a smear on one wall, splashes near the base of walls, a spattering on a jacket hanging from an air conditioner. She also found a dog tooth on a bucket. Yet the most convincing evidence that this was the "pit" -- the dogfighting arena -- was the rectangular area in the middle of the room devoid of blood. "Dogfighters put down carpet to give their dogs traction," Strouse says.

Investigators would eventually find a bloodstained carpet elsewhere on the property, and later Strouse would proclaim to a friend, "We got him. We got Michael Vick."

But neither the case, nor Vick's connection to it, is so clear-cut. Since the raid, Vick, 26, has proclaimed his innocence and blamed family members who lived in the house for what was found there. "It's unfortunate I have to take the heat," he said to reporters in New York City on April 27, a day before the NFL draft. "Lesson learned for me."

As of Monday, Surry County commonwealth's attorney Gerald Poindexter had not filed animal-welfare charges against anyone in the case, including Vick and his cousin, 26-year-old Davon Boddie, whose arrest on suspicion of drug possession sparked the raid. (Boddie gave police the Moonlight Road address as his place of residence; when searching the property they found probable cause to seek a second warrant involving animal cruelty.)

Poindexter has said he's convinced dogfighting took place on Moonlight Road but also that he hasn't yet found enough evidence to charge anyone. He said he has no eyewitnesses to fights there and noted that as many as 10 people might have had access to the property. Two schools of thought have thus emerged based on the information uncovered so far: Vick is either, as some in the animal welfare community believe, the financier of a large dogfighting operation and an aficionado of that blood sport, or, he is, as he said, a victim of poor choices made by those around him.

[Bretsky]

A source close to Vick with links to the NFL told SI last week that those two characterizations oversimplify the situation. "Mike really loves dogs," said the source, who asked not to be named. "It's the country side of him coming out. He doesn't believe he's doing anything wrong. It's a cultural thing for him that got worse as he got the means to support his friends who are more into [dogfighting] than him.... He's heavily influenced by a dogfighting culture that travels to Baltimore, [Washington] D.C. and Virginia for fights." The source also said that Vick was frequently at the Moonlight Road house in past off-seasons.

Two other Vick associates told SI.com's Don Banks that the quarterback knew about the dogfighting at the house on Moonlight Road and cited his "affinity" for the dogfighting subculture. On Sunday, ESPN's Outside the Lines aired an interview with a confidential source who said he personally saw Vick gambling on his own dog at a fight in 2000 and that Vick was "one of the heavyweights" of the dogfighting world.

Vick has declined further comment, citing the advice of his attorney, Larry Woodward, who did not respond to messages left by SI. In his comments after the allegations arose, Vick said, "It's a call for me to really tighten down on who I'm trying to take care of. When it all boils down, people will try to take advantage of you and leave you out to dry."

Accused athletes often claim they're targets of smear campaigns. In this case Vick indeed seems a marked man. To Strouse and others, including officials from the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS), who have seen dogfighting grow into what they call a multimillion-dollar industry with its own magazines, underground highlight DVDs and even music (videos by rappers such as DMX and Jay-Z pay homage to the sport), seeing Vick implicated in a dogfighting case would be like landing the great white whale. They've been building a case against Vick in the press and have forwarded material to Surry County law enforcement to help the investigation. Their motives are twofold: They believe Vick was involved, claiming they've heard from informants for years that he was into dogfighting. And, perhaps more important, an indictment filed against one of the NFL's signature stars would boost their broader efforts to combat the grisly pastime of dogfighting, which is a felony in every state but Idaho and Wyoming (where it is a misdemeanor).

"There exists a dogfighting subculture in the NFL and NBA," says Wayne Pacelle, president of the HSUS. "And to have an athlete of [Vick's] stature charged would be an enormous wake-up call to everyone in professional sports who has dabbled in or dived into the underworld of dogfighting."

Dogfighting cases are often difficult to prove and are largely built on circumstantial evidence, says Mark Kumpf, an expert who has testified in several high-profile trials. When Poindexter met with investigators on May 21, the bulk of the evidence he reviewed was likely what was seized during the raid -- the rape stand, the "break stick" used to pry open a dog's jaws, the "keep" schedule written on the wall of one building. According to a search warrant executed on the Moonlight Road property, three envelopes addressed to "M. Vick" were also seized.

After the raid, authorities discovered that VicksK9Kennels.com, which offered pit bulls and presa canarios for sale, listed an address on Moonlight Road and was registered to one of Vick's companies, MV7 LLC. (The site has since shut down, and Vick put the Moonlight Road property up for sale.) The transport of dogs across state lines for the purposes of fighting is a federal offense, and an official from the United States Department of Agriculture, the federal agency that investigates dogfighting, attended the meeting between Poindexter and the county sheriff's department last week. Earlier Poindexter said "not to rule out" the possibility that federal authorities could play a role in the investigation.

Law enforcement officials are not the only ones attempting to ascertain Vick's involvement. The NFL is "taking this very seriously" according to league spokesman Greg Aiello. NFL security has offered its services to Surry County investigators, and the league has been questioning people with ties to the case.

The dogfighting allegations arise at a time when NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is cracking down on players who run afoul of the law. "I was very clear with Michael," Goodell said after meeting with Vick on April 28. "People living in your house and people on your property [are] your responsibility. He needed to make sure he surrounded himself with people who were going to treat him properly and represent him the way he wanted to be."

Goodell has received letters from Pacelle and from U.S. congressman Tom Lantos (D., Calif.), who urged the commissioner "to act swiftly and forcefully" in the case. In addition the commissioner was compelled to address comments made by Washington Redskins running back Clinton Portis, who excused dogfighting in an interview with Norfolk TV station WAVY. "It's [Vick's] property; it's his dogs. If that's what he wants to do, do it," Portis said. He added that if Vick were convicted of dogfighting, he would be "behind bars for no reason."

Animal control officials call this the "just dogs" mentality. "It's 'just dogs,'" explains Strouse, "so why does it matter?"

[Bretsky]

There are three types of dogfighters. One is the street fighter, who usually owns a single dog and fights it "off the chain" in alleys or vacant lots. Another is the hobbyist, who might own a few dogs, squaring them off against other animals owned by close associates. And then there is the professional, who pays as much as $40,000 for a dog, breeds animals from past champions and and participates in well-organized, high-stakes fights often planned months in advance, with purses of up to $100,000.

In one case investigated by the HSUS, dogfight attendees were told to meet miles from the fight's location. They then had to relinquish their car keys and cellphones before being bused to the fight. Such secrecy explains why police are rarely able to raid live fights. Most busts -- including one in March in southern Ohio involving 64 dogs -- result from investigations of other crimes, typically involving drugs or guns.

One of the few law enforcement officials to penetrate a professional dogfighting ring is Jim Ward, an agent for the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs. The operation he infiltrated involved former NFL running back LeShon Johnson, who pleaded guilty in 2005 to dogfighting in a case in which more than 200 dogs were seized and 20 people convicted. (Johnson received a five-year deferred sentence.) Ward attended two fights, the first a high-stakes match and the second a series of training fights during which 30 to 40 people, including Johnson, were "rolling" dogs -- trying them out to determine if they were "game" enough to fight. Both sets of fights were staged in a greenhouse, in a pit made of hinged plywood so that the walls could be folded down and the carpet rolled up in a moment.

"I was amazed at how all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds went to these fights," Ward, 36, says. "There was a kid there who was eight or nine years old, and there were some teenagers and then older men. But there were also women who had come with their boyfriends, as if on a date."

On the first night of fights, Ward witnessed matches with purses as high as $10,000. The evening was officiated by someone identified as a sanctioned "game dog" referee, who weighed the dogs and ensured they were a good pairing. The dogs were then bathed, a precaution against the practice of putting poison or other substances on a dog's coat to debilitate or repel the opponent. The two dogs were placed in opposite corners of the pit and released simultaneously.

"You know that sound of a dog ripping into meat? That is what you hear, and it is horrible," Ward says. "And a true fighting dog doesn't just bite. It holds on and shakes." Ward considered calling in agents who were performing surveillance to put an end to the carnage. "But I thought if I stayed and we got everyone involved, then maybe we could really put a stop to these people."

During one fight Ward watched as a red brindle female named Star was ripped apart. After her defeat, her owner pulled out a gun and announced he was taking Star outside to kill her. Concerned that his surveillance team would hear the shot and move in, Ward quickly offered to buy the animal. He paid $60.

"I took her to the vet that night, and she needed more than 40 stitches," Ward says. Once home, he found her to be loyal and loving. But in the presence of another animal -- his Labrador retriever or one of his horses -- she attacked. "It's what the dogfighters call 'gameness,' that 'game blood,'" Ward says. "Eventually I had to put her down."

Ward saw firsthand how prominently Johnson, a 1994 draft pick out of Northern Illinois who played five seasons for three NFL teams, figured in the dogfighting world. His Krazyside Kennels had been a well-known and sought-after breeder; his dogs were branded with a "5," which law enforcement officials say may have been a reference to the number of victories a dog needs to be labeled a grand champion. The kennel's most famous dog, Nino, is a legend. In a lengthy testimonial on one breeder's website, riospitbull.com, Nino's exploits are described in a laudatory narrative signed by "Krazyside Kennels." The narrator writes of finding Nino in 1997 and fighting him in North Carolina, Arkansas, Kansas and, finally, New York. In Nino's last match, according to the account, he won a fight that lasted one hour and 48 minutes, despite having his ankle snapped in the first 30 seconds. (Some dogfights last as long as four hours.) "Everyone who doesn't believe this brutal stuff goes on should read that essay," Ward says.

When Johnson was arrested at his apartment in Tulsa in May 2004, agents found a calendar that detailed when he fought and bred his dogs. Fights were listed so far back that investigators believe Johnson fought dogs while still in the NFL. When a law enforcement agent asked Johnson if other football players were into the blood sport, "he avoided answering the question," Ward says. "It was like he was saying there were, but he didn't want to be the one to talk about them."

Johnson is one of a handful of athletes who have faced charges for dogfighting or spoken openly of their links to the practice. Former NBA player Qyntel Woods was accused in 2004 of staging fights at his home outside Portland and pleaded guilty to first-degree animal abuse. Former Dallas Cowboy Nate Newton was arrested at a fight in Texas in 1991. (Charges were later dropped.) Former boxer Gerald McClellan would watch tapes of dogs fighting before his own bouts and admitted putting his dog into fights. And former NFL player Tyrone Wheatley praised the spirit of fighting dogs in SI in 2001. But for all those identified, scores of others go unnamed, according to animal control officials and pro athletes interviewed by SI.
"[Fighting dogs] is a fun thing, a hobby, to some [athletes]," says an NFL Pro Bowl running back who asked not to be named. "People are crazy about pit bulls. Guys have these nice, big fancy houses, and there is always a pit bull in the back. And everyone wants to have the biggest, baddest dog on the block."

Certainly most athletes who own pit bulls, a breed that's growing in popularity across the U.S., keep them strictly as pets. "People who don't know anything about pit bulls see one and immediately think people are fighting them," says Sean Bailey, a University of Georgia football player with a breeding operation in Alpharetta, Ga. "I breed blue pit bulls, and the 'gameness' dogfighters talk about has been bred out of them."

Still, HSUS officials, who pay for information that leads to a conviction, say they regularly get tips about athletes' participation in dogfights and pass leads on to local law enforcement. Two weeks ago John Goodwin, the HSUS's animal fighting expert, received a tip that a former NBA player ran a fighting ring in Virginia not far from Vick's property. "We hear about athletes all the time," Goodwin says.

"There's a fine line between having a dog as a macho display and having that animal display those characteristics in a fight setting," says Pacelle, the HSUS president. "Athletes get pulled into the subculture. These are competitive people. They are competitive on the football field and on the basketball court, and they get competitive about their dogs."

Or, as the Pro Bowl running back put it, "Sometimes you just want to see how tough a dog you got."

Kathy Strouse will long remember the pit bulls she helped remove from Moonlight Road. Most were short, stocky and ferocious looking, but when she approached them and gave them treats, they were gentle and loving. "Those dogs were so happy, so delighted to have human contact," Strouse says. The animals were split up and sent to shelters around Virginia, the locations undisclosed for fear dogfighters might try to steal them. Eventually the animals will be euthanized. "These dogs can't be adopted," says Strouse. "You don't want dogs like these living next door. The only thought that gives me some comfort is, I would rather have them die while being held by someone who cares about them than in a fighting pit."

She pauses, composes herself and returns to the stack of papers she calls the latest research on the case. "There's so much here, I've barely had time to go through it all," Strouse says, sorting through pages of material she hopes will help reveal the truth of what went on in those blackened buildings on Moonlight Road.

George Dohrmann can be reached at George_Dohrmann@simail.com

[Kiwon]

Whoa, Bretsky on the case. Good investigative reporting.

It will really be interesting to see how honestly and thoroughly this case will be investigated. I'm still very skeptical. The privileged and the guilty do get away with crimes every day. It's not fair but it's reality.

Unless Vick confesses or there is some smoking gun photographic evidence implicating Vick, the evidence will be circumstantial. The best shot at getting Vick (if that's what the authorities want) might be his financial dealings. Sounds like things were conducted in cash but you never know. Again, I think it would take a mountain of circumstantial evidence for Vick to ever be convicted of a serious crime OR for the NFL to punish him. I can promise you that there are influential people who don't want to see either happen.

The silver lining in this is that the seemly world of dog fighting is being exposed to the mainstream. Time will tell if the mainstream cares or not.

[Bretsky]

Thanks; I also agree Vick will get off on these charges. The wealthy find a way to manipulate the truth to suit their needs. Vick will as well.

But I hope that is not the case and I hope pro sports make an example out of Ron Mexico...oops...I mean chump Vick.

[Patler]

Please don't anyone take what I am going to write in the wrong way. I think dog fighting is a disgusting event, I feel the same about bull fighting, cock fighting and any other controlled event in which animals are tortured for human entertainment..

However, the visceral reaction most of us have to watching one dog kill another dog results from the rather unique relationship between humans and dogs. We empathize with the victim dog. Do you feel the same way when other animals battle to the death? Have you ever watched a cat kill a mouse? Have you ever watched the way a mousing cat will torment and torture the mouse, letting it "escape" only to recapture it again and again? Some cats will do this an incredibly long time, until the mouse is too weak to walk, and totally submits to its death. Now you may say this is necessary, for food. But that isn't completely true. Feral cats are a big problem in some areas, and many kill for sport and exercise, often not even eating their kill.

I think that is the perspective some in dog fighting have. They think the dogs are just doing what is natural for them. Of course where their argument falls down is that it is anything but a natural setting. In nature the animals are not forced to fight. One can avoid the other, escape, etc. In the fighting pit they can not.



Hmmm, an odd perspective. I guess if we breed cats and mice both, and then stage the event while everyone cheers we could then compare the two.

See, I think you took it wrong, even though I asked you not to! :D

I am not in my own mind comparing the two, as I said one is a forced situation for the enterinment of humans and the other just is the way it is and was meant to be. However, in trying to understand the mind set of people who engage in dogfighting, I think they see it as just letting the dogs do what they do.

I think bullfighting, at least the traditional way in which a lance is used to sever a muscle in the neck to keep the bulls head down and the animal is pretty much tortured throughout, is just as bad as dog fighting, The difference in the reaction of society is that bulls are not nearly so lovable as dogs.

[Creepy]

Yeah, but bullfighting is also illegal in the US.

[Rastak]

Yeah, but bullfighting is also illegal in the US.


That should be illegal everywhere.

[Rastak]

Please don't anyone take what I am going to write in the wrong way. I think dog fighting is a disgusting event, I feel the same about bull fighting, cock fighting and any other controlled event in which animals are tortured for human entertainment..

However, the visceral reaction most of us have to watching one dog kill another dog results from the rather unique relationship between humans and dogs. We empathize with the victim dog. Do you feel the same way when other animals battle to the death? Have you ever watched a cat kill a mouse? Have you ever watched the way a mousing cat will torment and torture the mouse, letting it "escape" only to recapture it again and again? Some cats will do this an incredibly long time, until the mouse is too weak to walk, and totally submits to its death. Now you may say this is necessary, for food. But that isn't completely true. Feral cats are a big problem in some areas, and many kill for sport and exercise, often not even eating their kill.

I think that is the perspective some in dog fighting have. They think the dogs are just doing what is natural for them. Of course where their argument falls down is that it is anything but a natural setting. In nature the animals are not forced to fight. One can avoid the other, escape, etc. In the fighting pit they can not.



Hmmm, an odd perspective. I guess if we breed cats and mice both, and then stage the event while everyone cheers we could then compare the two.

See, I think you took it wrong, even though I asked you not to! :D

I am not in my own mind comparing the two, as I said one is a forced situation for the enterinment of humans and the other just is the way it is and was meant to be. However, in trying to understand the mind set of people who engage in dogfighting, I think they see it as just letting the dogs do what they do.

I think bullfighting, at least the traditional way in which a lance is used to sever a muscle in the neck to keep the bulls head down and the animal is pretty much tortured throughout, is just as bad as dog fighting, The difference in the reaction of society is that bulls are not nearly so lovable as dogs.


Oh, I would never watch a bullfight. Hell, bullriding is pretty sick from what I hear.


True about bulls though.....

[Patler]

Yeah, but bullfighting is also illegal in the US.

As it should be. But, why isn't it banned everywhere? Why is dogfighting not illegal everywhere?

None of it makes any sense to me.

[Rastak]

Yeah, but bullfighting is also illegal in the US.

As it should be. But, why isn't it banned everywhere? Why is dogfighting not illegal everywhere?

None of it makes any sense to me.


In some countries women are pretty much property. I wouldn't use what goes on elsewhere in the world as a measuring stick in the USA.

[Partial]

Yeah, but bullfighting is also illegal in the US.


That should be illegal everywhere.

Why?

How is that any different than raising a domesticated animal only to kill it? I realize one is a more grotesque method of killing the beast, but both are being raised only to be killed. The end result is the same.

Bull fighting has had a long, rich tradition in spain. I don't see why it should be illegal at all.

[MJZiggy]

The difference is that the domesticated animals are killed for FOOD, and the attempt is supposed to be to end their lives as humanely as possible (though that just invites a discussion on the maltreatment of veal, but still), bullfighting and dogfighting are done for sport. Are you planning on eating the losing dog, by chance?

[Rastak]

Yeah, but bullfighting is also illegal in the US.


That should be illegal everywhere.

Why?

How is that any different than raising a domesticated animal only to kill it? I realize one is a more grotesque method of killing the beast, but both are being raised only to be killed. The end result is the same.

Bull fighting has had a long, rich tradition in spain. I don't see why it should be illegal at all.

They have a rich history of sexually mutilating girls in Africa, is that ok because of a rich history? Partial, bullfighting is absolutely barbaric. You want to compare that to a slaughterhouse and food? Torturing a bull for an extended period of time until it eventually loses all strength and dies is the same as chopping off a chickens head?

[MJZiggy]

Partial, have you ever WATCHED a bullfight? I mean, like the whole thing, beginning to end?

[Scott Campbell]

Bull fighting has had a long, rich tradition in spain.


Well slavery had a long rich tradition in the US. Scociety evolves, or so we hope.

[Partial]

Partial, have you ever WATCHED a bullfight? I mean, like the whole thing, beginning to end?

No I have not.

[Zool]

If I'm not mistaken they end up shoving the sword down through the bull right between the shoulder blades at the end of the whole thing. They guys that do it are balsy, and I would assume a lot of them get gored.

Maybe there should be pitbull fighting thats man vs a pissed of 80 pound pitbull in a small ring. The guy has only a cape to start. Now THAT I might watch.

[Patler]

If I'm not mistaken they end up shoving the sword down through the bull right between the shoulder blades at the end of the whole thing. They guys that do it are balsy, and I would assume a lot of them get gored.
.

Balsy? Not as much as you might think. A bull fight includes the following, BEFORE the matador takes centerstage:

A rider on a horse using a long lance stabs the bull on the top of the neck to sever muscles and prevent the bull from raising his head. This might be done more than once. It is also to encourage blood loss.

Usually at least four and sometimes more pointed sharp sticks (with colorful streamers) are stabbed into the neck and left there. This too is to control neck movements, but also to promote additional blood loss.

The bull is chased in a circle by all involved to disorient him and encourage blood loss.

Only after the bull is weakened from significant blood loss and disoriented from running in circle after circle with three foot sticks stuck in his neck does the "balsy" matador enter the ring.

More horses are gored during the lancing than matodors at the end. The bull isn't already half-dead at the time the blindfolded horses encounter him.

Often the bull is still alive after multiple stabbings from the matador. Some are still alive when an ear and/or their tail is cut off and they are dragged from the ring by a horse. The coup de grace is delivered outside the ring for those that don't die in it.

[Bretsky]

If I'm not mistaken they end up shoving the sword down through the bull right between the shoulder blades at the end of the whole thing. They guys that do it are balsy, and I would assume a lot of them get gored.
.

Balsy? Not as much as you might think. A bull fight includes the following, BEFORE the matador takes centerstage:

A rider on a horse using a long lance stabs the bull on the top of the neck to sever muscles and prevent the bull from raising his head. This might be done more than once. It is also to encourage blood loss.

Usually at least four and sometimes more pointed sharp sticks (with colorful streamers) are stabbed into the neck and left there. This too is to control neck movements, but also to promote additional blood loss.

The bull is chased in a circle by all involved to disorient him and encourage blood loss.

Only after the bull is weakened from significant blood loss and disoriented from running in circle after circle with three foot sticks stuck in his neck does the "balsy" matador enter the ring.

More horses are gored during the lancing than matodors at the end. The bull isn't already half-dead at the time the blindfolded horses encounter him.

Often the bull is still alive after multiple stabbings from the matador. Some are still alive when an ear and/or their tail is cut off and they are dragged from the ring by a horse. The coup de grace is delivered outside the ring for those that don't die in it.


I went to a bull fight in Mexico a few years ago; my wife wanted to take in the experience tp see what they were like for whatever reason.

The people were cowards. They were not getting hurt except for an extreme error. Their goal was the stick that sword right in between the shoulder bladed in the exact area that would result in a quick kill. But 3 of the 4 were chumps that missed and missed and missed. Each time they missed the bull would bleed further and further and weaken.

It was cruel and inhumane actions. Anybody attending one with an ounce of common sense would agree.

I now find the people who support this tradition more dispicable than I thought they were before attending.

And I'm by no means a PETA dude or anything like that.

Bad events run by terrible people; I actually feel bad I paid a few bucks to attend that pathetic excuse of an event.

Never again. Never again.


B

[Zool]

Well even in a dying state, I'm not getting in that ring. I've seen enough clips of matadors getting gored. I dont agree with it, but I dont see it stopping anytime soon.

[Kiwon]

The intrigue continues..........

Prosecutor: Informants link Vick to dogfighting

SURRY, Va. (AP) — Informants have come forward saying they can link Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick to dog fighting, the prosecutor in the case said Thursday, and he has turned their accounts and contact information over to investigators.

Surry County Commonwealth's Attorney Gerald G. Poindexter said he has heard from about a half-dozen people claiming to have information about Vick's involvement in dog fighting, but he does not know if their claims have proven to be reliable.

In a letter, an inmate in a South Carolina prison claimed that he attended dog fights where Vick also was in attendance and saw Vick bet large amounts of money. Another informant provided street names of dog fighters from elsewhere in Virginia.

A deputy sheriff in the county, W.R. Brinkman, is on the road investigating the claims, Poindexter said, noting that the investigation is the job of the sheriff.

Poindexter said a search warrant issued May 23 for the massive home Vick owns in the county still has not been executed because he wants to make certain that any search does not jeopardize the investigation. Several years ago, another dog fighting case in the county was thrown out of court because of an illegal search, he said.

The search warrant was issued after an informant told Brinkman there were as many as 30 dogs carcasses buried on the property, and Poindexter said he is confident that evidence already seized from the home would be enough to hand down indictments.

He said any attempt to remove the carcasses would also be incriminating.

When charges will be sought and who will face them remains to be seen, he said, noting that unless a special grand jury is called, the county grand jury is scheduled to meet next on July 24. The county has never had a special grand jury called.

The case began April 25 when police conducting a drug investigation raided the house Vick owns and found 66 dogs, 55 of them pit bulls. They also found items associated with dog fighting, including a "pry bar" used to pry apart a dog's jaws.

Dog fighting is a felony in Virginia.

Vick, a registered dog breeder, has blamed relatives for taking advantage of his generosity and insisted he's rarely at the house. He has since put the home on the market and sold it in a day, although the sale has not yet been completed.

A store-bought "For Sale by Owner" sign once put up in the front yard of the two-story, painted brick home is no longer in the yard.
.................................................. ...............................

They are getting one step closer to Vick.

Note that he has already sold the house and it ready to move on (and maybe remove evidence on the way out?). Note also there is a history of dog fighting in the county - with no convictions due to a technicality.

Also notice that the Commonwealth's Attorney (prosecutor) makes a point that the investigation is the responsibility of the local sheriff. The sheriff in turn has put his best deputy on the case, a one-man task force.

I just wonder if its Barney or Gomer. That's unfair.....but funny. :)

[Kiwon]

Another update.....

........................................
Prosecutor in Vick dogfighting case takes 'cautious' course

By Chris Colston, USA TODAY

SURRY, Va. — Gerald Poindexter held up a manila envelope to reveal its emptiness.

"I don't have one investigation report in my file," the commonwealth's attorney of rural Surry County told USA TODAY on Monday. "But I'm talking to people conducting the investigation."

Poindexter spent an hour Monday morning with one of the people — deputy sheriff W.R. Brinkman — investigating the property owned by Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick for possible dogfighting.

On April 25, a search of Vick's property uncovered drug paraphernalia and 66 dogs in the yard. They were seized the next day.

With the national media and those seeking an indictment looking for answers and frustrated by the snail's pace of the investigation, Poindexter defends the slow progress in the high-profile case.

"One report described me as 'gun-shy,' " he said. "I would say I am cautious, but I don't want to say I'm overly cautious."

Ashley L. Taylor, a former deputy attorney general for Virginia and now a partner in a Richmond law firm, understands Poindexter's approach.

"This seems to be an example of a prosecutor taking a deep breath and gathering all the facts with the understanding that it's a high-profile case," Taylor said. "When he comes forward, he wants to be sure all his I's are dotted and his T's are crossed."

Poindexter has seen what he believes is evidence of dogfighting on the property — things such as a rape stand used to hold unwilling dogs in place for mating, a pry bar used to open their clamped-shut mouths and a bloody piece of carpeting believed to be used in the dogfighting — and investigators have been interviewing informants. But it's not an easy process, the beleaguered prosecutor said.

"If you don't catch someone in the middle of a dogfight, you have to rely on forensics or get someone to say they were at a dogfight," Poindexter said, and that could implicate them. But "we're prepared, in the proper case, to give immunity."

More than one defendant could be indicted, Poindexter said, and he knows they could have the financial means to hire high-powered attorneys. "I know … they will obviously put up the best defense," he said, "and they would attack everything that's available to attack."

Last week he and Sheriff H.D. Brown denied a warrant to search Vick's property at 1915 Moonlight Road, a search that could reveal as many as 30 buried dog carcasses.

"When (we) saw the affidavit and warrant, we were glad we held it up, because it appeared to be (flawed)," Poindexter said. "It referred back to the search of April 26. Why go back to that if you can avoid it?"

Poindexter lost a case involving dogfighting in 2000 because of Fourth Amendment (illegal search) issues. He wants to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Poindexter first learned of the investigation on the evening of April 25. The next day, he and county administrator Tyrone W. Franklin went to the property when investigators were removing evidence.

"I was taken to the back of the property, where there was a bleached-out carcass of what appeared to be a dead dog," he said. "I mean an old carcass. I saw no evidence of any flesh on it. Just white bones. Even if vultures had picked on it, even in the last six months you would have seen evidence of flesh on it. So it was an old carcass. I don't know what it tells us, but I saw that."

Inside the house, Poindexter saw what appeared to be evidence of dogfighting in an upstairs room. The room was accessible only by a ladder. "There was blood in an upper room of the house," he said. "Now, there were some reports that the room was drenched in blood. That's not true. But there were blood spatters."

Because of the ladder, Poindexter said the only way dogs could get in the room "was if humans brought them there."

Poindexter still has no idea when the investigation will conclude or when any indictments will be brought.

"I've talked to no person directly who claims to have seen dogfighting on that property," he said, "or has been associated with anybody who has been at a dogfight.

"I keep going back to this: Michael Vick cannot fight dogs by himself. There have got to be other people — accomplices."