Hate Programming

[Partial]

I absolutely hate what I am doing in school. I will never, ever be strictly a programmer for school.

Any folks out there in the industry have any idea of what I can do to separate myself from the pack so I can work on projects that I find interesting and to get a job in a more hardware related field?

[Fosco33]

I absolutely hate what I am doing in school. I will never, ever be strictly a programmer for school.

Any folks out there in the industry have any idea of what I can do to separate myself from the pack so I can work on projects that I find interesting and to get a job in a more hardware related field?

Most of my college roomies were either EE or CE. One went the hardware route and worked for National Instruments in Austin. He was on projects for a few years but is now leading them (instead of just programming). Key for him was excellent, timely, accurate work and expressing interest to the employer that you want to be a project manager.

Lots of former IT programmers in my employer (software) end up leading projects after about 2 years - it's just a matter of being a stud.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

As Fosco said, being excellent will often lead to a promotion. However, just because you are good at one position doesn't mean you will be good as PM. Unfortunately, the only way to reward a good employee and pay them more is to put them in a position that they may not be good at. Basically, the Peter Principle.

If you are serious about becoming a PM, I would suggest getting your certification from PMI. You will decrease you on the job learning time, it looks great on your resume and will put you at the top of the list. I wouldn't suggest taking the courses from PMI..kinda costly, but most colleges/jucos have courses in it..or look at skillsoft to do it online.

Another area to consider is Six Sigma. If you like examining problems and then determing a solution systematically then Six Sigma is a great way to go. The pay is great, you are PAID to criticize and tear things apart, and is a great way to become a consultant.

[Fosco33]

As Fosco said, being excellent will often lead to a promotion. However, just because you are good at one position doesn't mean you will be good as PM. Unfortunately, the only way to reward a good employee and pay them more is to put them in a position that they may not be good at. Basically, the Peter Principle.

If you are serious about becoming a PM, I would suggest getting your certification from PMI. You will decrease you on the job learning time, it looks great on your resume and will put you at the top of the list. I wouldn't suggest taking the courses from PMI..kinda costly, but most colleges/jucos have courses in it..or look at skillsoft to do it online.

Another area to consider is Six Sigma. If you like examining problems and then determing a solution systematically then Six Sigma is a great way to go. The pay is great, you are PAID to criticize and tear things apart, and is a great way to become a consultant.

As a consultant with Lean Sigma experience; I'd agree completely :wink:

[BF4MVP]

I hate it too. Thats why I quit.. :wink:

[Scott Campbell]

As a consultant with Lean Sigma experience; I'd agree completely :wink:


Is that the same thing Toyota did with Lean Solutions?

[Fosco33]

As a consultant with Lean Sigma experience; I'd agree completely :wink:


Is that the same thing Toyota did with Lean Solutions?

Exactly - the Ohno development at Toyota. One gig of mine was w/ the largest med device company in the world - we had to work with the Lean Sigma folks. I would've been considered a Master Blackbelt with my project successes :D

Major differences in the 2 are a focus on stats vs. removing non-value activities. Here's a quick outline...

http://www.bizmanualz.com/information/2005/07/14/lean-thinking-for-process-improvement.html

[Partial]

man all that stuff is going right over my head.

I am thinking I will just go to grad school. I am getting pretty into linear algebra and stuff like that, so I could go with a mathematics research emphasis and consult for companies, or take a couple actuarial tests, etc.

I just gotta find something I enjoy!!

[Scott Campbell]

I am thinking I will just go to grad school.


I still think you should go into the work force and work on your resume for 4 or 5 years and get some employer to pay for it.

[Rastak]

I absolutely hate what I am doing in school. I will never, ever be strictly a programmer for school.

Any folks out there in the industry have any idea of what I can do to separate myself from the pack so I can work on projects that I find interesting and to get a job in a more hardware related field?


I'm surprised you hate programming. I find it interesting as all hell.
What sort of hardware are you talking about? Network? Servers? Mainframes? The most ugly thing of all time, the AS/400?

[Fosco33]

I absolutely hate what I am doing in school. I will never, ever be strictly a programmer for school.

Any folks out there in the industry have any idea of what I can do to separate myself from the pack so I can work on projects that I find interesting and to get a job in a more hardware related field?


I'm surprised you hate programming. I find it interesting as all hell.
What sort of hardware are you talking about? Network? Servers? Mainframes? The most ugly thing of all time, the AS/400?

No doubt - my current client runs iSeries for their hospital billing. But it's better than their homegrown system to manage admissions/registrations...

[Rastak]

I absolutely hate what I am doing in school. I will never, ever be strictly a programmer for school.

Any folks out there in the industry have any idea of what I can do to separate myself from the pack so I can work on projects that I find interesting and to get a job in a more hardware related field?


I'm surprised you hate programming. I find it interesting as all hell.
What sort of hardware are you talking about? Network? Servers? Mainframes? The most ugly thing of all time, the AS/400?

No doubt - my current client runs iSeries for their hospital billing. But it's better than their homegrown system to manage admissions/registrations...


I should probably elaborate. I don't mind the hardware at all but the OS?....Yikes!


Everything begins with a Q.....

[Partial]

I absolutely hate what I am doing in school. I will never, ever be strictly a programmer for school.

Any folks out there in the industry have any idea of what I can do to separate myself from the pack so I can work on projects that I find interesting and to get a job in a more hardware related field?


I'm surprised you hate programming. I find it interesting as all hell.
What sort of hardware are you talking about? Network? Servers? Mainframes? The most ugly thing of all time, the AS/400?

No hardware programming yet. That would be fascinating and something I would enjoy. What we have been doing in school is lame C++ programs that don't do anything (we wrote the same program about 8 times using a different data structure each time (array, dynamic array, list, doubly-linked list, binary search tree, etc).

I took a system level programming class which was great because we actually learned how a processor handles commands and stuff like that. That was interesting and pretty cool.

[Rastak]

I absolutely hate what I am doing in school. I will never, ever be strictly a programmer for school.

Any folks out there in the industry have any idea of what I can do to separate myself from the pack so I can work on projects that I find interesting and to get a job in a more hardware related field?


I'm surprised you hate programming. I find it interesting as all hell.
What sort of hardware are you talking about? Network? Servers? Mainframes? The most ugly thing of all time, the AS/400?

No hardware programming yet. That would be fascinating and something I would enjoy. What we have been doing in school is lame C++ programs that don't do anything (we wrote the same program about 8 times using a different data structure each time (array, dynamic array, list, doubly-linked list, binary search tree, etc).

I took a system level programming class which was great because we actually learned how a processor handles commands and stuff like that. That was interesting and pretty cool.


Yes, machine language is interesting. I took that in trade school and messed around with it a bit on my 80286 processor many years ago.
C++ and java are quite interesting. I haven't really done any C++ but wrote a boxing game in C once. Java programming can make you a fair bit of money if you are good.

[BallHawk]

My Dad works as a Java Programmer. He loves it. He finds it really interesting.

[Merlin]

Not sure what I can say to you to change your outlook. I know that where I work now, I work in multiple languages on multiple platforms for a myriad of different problems.

It's never boring, always learning something new, never the same.

However, when you start out it isn't always like that. Sometimes you have to bore yourself for a few years to get the experience on the resume'. Then from there you can pick your niche'. There are a lot of them...

[HarveyWallbangers]

Java programming can make you a fair bit of money if you are good.

Not as much as I'd like.
:D

[HarveyWallbangers]

My Dad works as a Java Programmer. He loves it. He finds it really interesting.

What was your Dad programming before Java? I have a love-hate relationship with programming. At times, it's exciting and there's some security with the job market. Other times, it's boring and I find less and less time and interest in keeping up with the changes that occur (not a lot of free time with a family). I often wish I could be a surveyor or park ranger.
:D

[Partial]

Harv and Merlin did you get into CS for the theory behind it and the coolness factor of it or did you actually enjoy programming?

Do either of you wish you worked more from a engineering/researching aspect of the field?

I now have the grades to go to a top 30 grad school. I am going to keep trying to get them higher, and hopefully by the end of my last year they will be high enough for top 10 consideration.

If I got in, i'd go all the way for the phd and bust my ass to get it done in 4 years. I am debating whether it would be worth it in the long run, though.

[Merlin]

To be honest, when I was growing up my best friends dad was an assembler programmer who worked from home. He worked at night when everyone was in bed and had plenty of time for family, etc. Not to say that what he did wasn't hard but it gave him more time to do what he wanted. I thought that was the shit. I got into programming later on in my IT career because I had done everything else accept "program" if you want to call it that. Anything from hardware to networking to engineering, etc. I went back to school about 9 years ago to finish my degree in CS so I could get a job in programming. If I had just stuck with it way back when I would have been happier all those years while being thrown under the bus by the company I worked for because I knew computers so well. I would also be rich :). Most of the people who have been in programming 20 + years don't have a degree in it and those are the ones making a difference today in engineering, etc.

Basically, how much education you have doesn't always equal a bigger pay check. If that is something you are looking for then I suggest you stay away from programming and stick with the engineering side. It can be very hard to get a top dollar programming job without any experience. Also, your education will give you a little edge up front but within two years, it doesn't mean a heck of a lot. Take someone like yourself with high grades and a 4 year degree. Then take someone with high grades and a 2 year degree. If you both are placed in the same job and you both perform the same, after two years, you will both be making the same amount of money. The ironic part is in that some IT departments, they have one of those guys with no degree and they will always make more then you.

You are right, it can be very boring, especially when you start out. If you start in a large company, more then likely your first project (and several thereafter) are going to insult your intelligence. And if the company has a very large IT department, you may not see any excitement for years because of what I like to call the "structure". Large IT departments are all fine and great but when you spend more time in meetings and trying to get things approved then you actually do programming, then you are lost in the "structure". Small IT departments have a tremendous upside in that you are usually thrown under the bus right away and expected to dig yourself out. It is normally not boring and you have the opportunity to show them what you can do. The downside is that there is normally a huge lack of experience so you are out of luck if you want to talk to someone with a clue when you are unsure.

When I started, I worked for a smaller IT department with a lead developer who knew programming but didn't know squat about databases and computers. The other two developers, neither of which had a degree (and it showed) were no help to me. After 6 months, I was the only developer left with no resources to tap on. After 1.5 years working on my own (by the seat of my pants), I was allowed to assemble a development staff. The only problem there is that I had no desire to be in charge of people. After about 3 years of that, I had enough and I was also bored out of my mind. I left there and worked for a very large company with a very large IT staff. I thought that was exactly what I needed, more IT professionals to tap into and a larger diverse work load. I was so bored it wasn't even funny. Meeting after meeting, discussion after discussion and only 1 project completed (and it wasn't even a big one) the whole time I worked there. By the time you cut through all of the red tape there it could take 6 months to a year before anything got approved and by then it probably got chopped because the new budget came out. It was a joke to me. So I left there for a company with 9 employees, all in IT with a football field's worth of projects in multiple languages for multiple clients and tight deadlines. Their motto is basically "We don't care how you do it, get it done quickly, make sure it's efficient as possible and satisfies the customers needs". I never looked back after that.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Harv and Merlin did you get into CS for the theory behind it and the coolness factor of it or did you actually enjoy programming?

Do either of you wish you worked more from a engineering/researching aspect of the field?

I enjoyed, and it fit my detail-oriented personality. There was no coolness factor to it when I was in college.

I have little interest in the researching aspect of it. Not sure what you mean by the engineering aspect. My duties include design (architecture) and implementation, so I'm one step up from a code monkey.

[Merlin]

I LOVE being a "Code Monkey"! Although I am actively involved in the rest, it's the "people management" part I can't stand anymore. I did that for 20 years and I don't want to be a boss anymore!

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Harv and Merlin did you get into CS for the theory behind it and the coolness factor of it or did you actually enjoy programming?

Do either of you wish you worked more from a engineering/researching aspect of the field?

I now have the grades to go to a top 30 grad school. I am going to keep trying to get them higher, and hopefully by the end of my last year they will be high enough for top 10 consideration.

If I got in, i'd go all the way for the phd and bust my ass to get it done in 4 years. I am debating whether it would be worth it in the long run, though.

What school do you attend? Grades are important, but the school and textbooks matter alot more in comp sci, engineering, etc. than grades.

My good buddy went to carnegie mellon for grad school..confirmed that. Grades and textbooks vary from school to school. And, those top 10 grad schools are gonna demand to know your textbooks.

Example: friend was low b student at Purdue...easy A student at UCF.

Another friend sold textbooks from (forgot the company, but good engineering books) and she said she was lucky to work in Wisco where the schools were good as opposed other territories where the schools wouldn't buy their buys cos the students weren't as advanced.

[Partial]

Well, I went to UW-Platteville for 2.5 years and have done one semester at UWM. I have a 3.9 gpa since I transferred. I will be able to keep it up with the classes I have left.

[MJZiggy]

Madison or Milwaukee?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Madison or Milwaukee?

UWM is always Milwaukee.

[Partial]

Milwaukee. I will be going to Madison for grad school ideally, though. I would hope a 3.7 or better would get in.

[MJZiggy]

You should have no problem going from Milwaukee to Madison, but why not go someplace fun? (not that Madison isn't fun, people, I just mean further away from home) Go someplace you've never been...

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Well, I went to UW-Platteville for 2.5 years and have done one semester at UWM. I have a 3.9 gpa since I transferred. I will be able to keep it up with the classes I have left.

Well, UWM isn't a bad school. But, it is far from being a top 30. And, while your gpa at UWM will only count...don't think that your transcripts and that you attended plattville won't factor in as well.

I would find out what textbooks a top 10/20 school uses. I would venture to guess that it isn't the same as UWM's. Call a buddy at UW. I hope i'm pleasantly surprised and find that it is the same.

But, based upon my experience (attending different undergrad schools, and taking grad classes at 2 schools) I don't think they will be. What is expected from a student at Plattville vs. UW is quite different. The CBK isn't the same.

Additionally, because you are attending a lower tiered school you are going to need better GRE scores as well. Make sure you take a test prep course. They can really help you increase your scores and become familiar with the GRE. I used to teach pt for the Princeton review..and it wasn't uncommon for me to raise a students GRE score by 250 points.

But, lucky for you that UW is ranked highly.

While you may want to attend grad school right away, you would be best served by working..that will help offset your lower ranked school.