For those that argued that Longwell didn't have a weak leg

[gureski]

I saw this today while sifting through footballguys.com:

PK Longwell Improves Distance
Kevin Seifert, Star Tribune -

http://www.startribune.com/vikings/story/1221920.html

Placekicker Ryan Longwell did not stand pat after averaging an NFL-worst 59.1 yards per kickoff last season. Longwell changed his offseason workout routine, putting a greater emphasis on endurance while also tweaking his technique.

"I'm in my 11th year," Longwell said. "You can get in a comfort zone in this league, and you don't want to be there. So I figured it's time to throw a wrinkle or two in and see if it pays off."

Special teams coordinator Paul Ferraro said, if nothing else, Longwell has been getting more consistent distance on his kickoffs during the first round of offseason practices.

"I think good things are going to happen this year with his kickoffs," Ferraro said. "At times last year he did a nice job, but he wasn't as consistent as we would have liked. But he's definitely done some good things here in the last two weeks."

end quotes

I know he's not a Packer anymore but when Longwell left there were a lot of bitter fans who weren't listening to logic about Longwell's abilities. I was one person who was railed on for saying Longwell had a weak leg and that his kick-offs sucked. This seems to prove what I was saying. He was the worst in the league last year, on kick-offs, and he kicked in a dome. Do you know what that does to a teams ability to win the field position game? Longwell wasn't worth the money anymore. He's past his prime.

[packers11]

I was so pissed when they let longwell go... but looking at the stats, T.T. was right, I was wrong...

Looking back at it ... I'm glad it happened the way it did...

Kickoffs
Rayner Vs Longwell G KO Avg TB Ret Ret Avg
2006 Minnesota Vikings 16 66 59.3 3 58 23.2
2006 Green Bay Packers 16 72 65.1 11 60 22.5

[packinpatland]

I didn't have any feelings one way or the other when he got let go, I was more upset that he went with the Vikings.
I do remember no being happpy when his kickoffs seldom went deep.
As far as field goals, he was right there.

[oregonpackfan]

I agree that field position is a crucial part of the pro game. When your team consistently gives up 10-15 yards of field position each kickoff, it does have a negative impact on the game.

[run pMc]

Up until his last season in GB, I thought he was an accurate and clutch FG/PAT guy with below average KO distance. In a cold, windy, outdoor stadium, that's an OK tradeoff, but not for Adam Vinatari (sp?) money.
With nobody in-house to replace him (until they picked up Rayner) I wasn't thrilled with seeing him leave -- to the VIKINGS of all teams -- but I didn't expect him to set the league on fire, either. I'm not 100% sold on Rayner yet, but he clearly has a bigger leg. The camp battle with Crosby will be interesting.

[KYPack]

Up until his last season in GB, I thought he was an accurate and clutch FG/PAT guy with below average KO distance. In a cold, windy, outdoor stadium, that's an OK tradeoff, but not for Adam Vinatari (sp?) money.
With nobody in-house to replace him (until they picked up Rayner) I wasn't thrilled with seeing him leave -- to the VIKINGS of all teams -- but I didn't expect him to set the league on fire, either. I'm not 100% sold on Rayner yet, but he clearly has a bigger leg. The camp battle with Crosby will be interesting.

Rayner set an obscure unofficial record last season. He recorded the longest hang time ever clocked on a kick-off. I don't have all the gory details, but it made me think the guy has potential.

[packinpatland]

Up until his last season in GB, I thought he was an accurate and clutch FG/PAT guy with below average KO distance. In a cold, windy, outdoor stadium, that's an OK tradeoff, but not for Adam Vinatari (sp?) money.
With nobody in-house to replace him (until they picked up Rayner) I wasn't thrilled with seeing him leave -- to the VIKINGS of all teams -- but I didn't expect him to set the league on fire, either. I'm not 100% sold on Rayner yet, but he clearly has a bigger leg. The camp battle with Crosby will be interesting.

Rayner set an obscure unofficial record last season. He recorded the longest hang time ever clocked on a kick-off. I don't have all the gory details, but it made me think the guy has potential.

Now why would those details be 'gory', did the ball impale someone?

[Packnut]

Packer cover teams have been terrible for the most part for quite a while now which compounded the short KO's by Longwell. A good cover team can make up for in-adequate leg strength. If you examine kick return stats, we really were not that much better with the guy we have now.

I'd rather have a guy who's automatic getting 3 than a guy who boots it in the end zone. Rayner missed a few key kicks and can only be classified as a failure as far as FG's go unless you approve of being average.

I was all for not giving Longwell the big money but not due to his kick-offs but rather because of his previously bad year kicking fg's.

[Creepy]

I can't agree with you Packnut, Longwell was never as good as everybody claims. he made some kicks at the end but also missed some. The difference is that when your a winning team nobody cares if you miss one or two, but when the team is losing every kick is scrutinized.

I also remember in his lastyear when GB could have tied/won (can't rememebr which) and Longwell gavethe no-go sign to Sherman ona 45 or 48 yard FG. During the same game the opponents kciker had hit from that distance into the same wind. At that time I thought it was time to get rid of Longwell. There are only two reason you don't even try:
1. You know you can't make it
2. It hurts your stats in a FA year.

Either way it spelled that GB needed to get rid of Longwell. The competition wil be good with Mosby, but IMHO Rayney will bethe kicker again this year. he has a full season of kicking on the NFL and I think he will have the better accuaracy.

[gureski]

I can't agree with you Packnut, Longwell was never as good as everybody claims. he made some kicks at the end but also missed some. The difference is that when your a winning team nobody cares if you miss one or two, but when the team is losing every kick is scrutinized.

I also remember in his lastyear when GB could have tied/won (can't rememebr which) and Longwell gavethe no-go sign to Sherman ona 45 or 48 yard FG. During the same game the opponents kciker had hit from that distance into the same wind. At that time I thought it was time to get rid of Longwell. There are only two reason you don't even try:
1. You know you can't make it
2. It hurts your stats in a FA year.

Either way it spelled that GB needed to get rid of Longwell. The competition wil be good with Mosby, but IMHO Rayney will bethe kicker again this year. he has a full season of kicking on the NFL and I think he will have the better accuaracy.

I can confirm that this happened. I recall reading about it the day after the Packers lost a game in which all the fans were wondering why the hell Sherman didn't kick a FG late in the game. It turned out that Longwell said he couldn't make it so Sherman didn't try it. Longwell's leg for FG kicks had substantially decreased over the years too. It wasn't just his kick offs. He doesn't have a strong leg anymore. He never really had a booming leg to begin with. What's easier?

[The Leaper]

Very few kickers are worth big money deals. Unless you are a championship caliber team, the money is better spent elsewhere.

Longwell certainly wasn't worth a big deal...while he was an above-average kicker in terms of reliability, his leg strength was waning and he was a liability on kickoffs.

Rayner has a strong leg, but his reliability and accuracy are still in question, and I would expect that Rayner is going to have to be significantly better than Crosby in order to keep his job...otherwise Thompson would not have selected a kicker in the draft. The only way Rayner is the kicker in 2007 is if Crosby falls on his face or Rayner suddenly kicks much better than he did in 2006.

[Packnut]

I can't agree with you Packnut, Longwell was never as good as everybody claims. he made some kicks at the end but also missed some. The difference is that when your a winning team nobody cares if you miss one or two, but when the team is losing every kick is scrutinized.

I also remember in his lastyear when GB could have tied/won (can't rememebr which) and Longwell gavethe no-go sign to Sherman ona 45 or 48 yard FG. During the same game the opponents kciker had hit from that distance into the same wind. At that time I thought it was time to get rid of Longwell. There are only two reason you don't even try:
1. You know you can't make it
2. It hurts your stats in a FA year.

Either way it spelled that GB needed to get rid of Longwell. The competition wil be good with Mosby, but IMHO Rayney will bethe kicker again this year. he has a full season of kicking on the NFL and I think he will have the better accuaracy.


The statement that Longwell was never really that good is just plain wrong. Look at his stats. The guy was above 80% damn near every year. He was automatic on extra points. Can't say that about Rayner. Your letting the last year Longwell was here, tarnish your judgement. Ryan made a ton of pressure kicks to win games for us.

Yes he was/is a primma-donna. He never took the blame and always used kicking in GB as an excuse. Still, his career stats in GB prove just how good a kicker he was.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Longwell has been good FG kicker every year but one or two. He used to be average on kickoffs... maybe even slightly above considering the climate in Green Bay. He's pretty much always been clutch. He's still a very good FG kicker. His kickoffs have dropped off to well below average. He's still clutch.

[BallHawk]

Rayner set an obscure unofficial record last season. He recorded the longest hang time ever clocked on a kick-off. I don't have all the gory details, but it made me think the guy has potential.

The time was 5.12 seconds. The previous record was 4.64 set by a kicker for the Tampa Bay Bucs.

Here's the link of the Dr. Z article if anyone is interested.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/dr_z/10/11/kick.record/1.html

[Merlin]

It runs in my mind that earlier in Longwell's career the tried to get him to get longer kickoffs. All it did was screw up his field goal kicking so they backed off it.

[PackerBlues]

I am sure that anyone who ever watched Longwell play would agree that he was great with field goals, but was pathetic at kick offs. The points from the field goals were nice, the field position given to our opponents was not so nice. An opposing team didnt even have to try on a kickoff return and they would find themselves at the 25-30 yardline. Against any team that had a better than average return man, it was far worse.

If we could have kept Longwell, I would have been happy to have had him as our field goal kicker. However, he was always pissin me off with his pathetic kickoffs. The only real option was to find a guy who could do both. Otherwise, use two roster spots up for Longwell to kick field goals, and another "specialist" for kick offs. Not much of an option.

[HarveyWallbangers]

His kickoffs weren't pathetic early in his career. His rookie year, he averaged 65.7 yards/kickoff and had 11 touchbacks. Amongst the league leaders. Through 2002, he averaged around 61-62 yards/kickoff and around 5-7 touchbacks. The rookie year numbers were excellent. From 1998-2002, his numbers were around average. We really saw a decline in his kickoffs starting in 2003.

[gureski]

His kickoffs weren't pathetic early in his career. His rookie year, he averaged 65.7 yards/kickoff and had 11 touchbacks. Amongst the league leaders. Through 2002, he averaged around 61-62 yards/kickoff and around 5-7 touchbacks. The rookie year numbers were excellent. From 1998-2002, his numbers were around average. We really saw a decline in his kickoffs starting in 2003.

YOu reference the league leaders and touchbacks... where did you find that info? I'd like to see where Longwell fit in each year.

Thanks,
Rick

[HarveyWallbangers]

His kickoffs weren't pathetic early in his career. His rookie year, he averaged 65.7 yards/kickoff and had 11 touchbacks. Amongst the league leaders. Through 2002, he averaged around 61-62 yards/kickoff and around 5-7 touchbacks. The rookie year numbers were excellent. From 1998-2002, his numbers were around average. We really saw a decline in his kickoffs starting in 2003.

YOu reference the league leaders and touchbacks... where did you find that info? I'd like to see where Longwell fit in each year.

Thanks,
Rick

NFL.com

They don't have league leaders, so you'll have a lot of research to do, but they do show how each kicker did on kickoffs if you go to the player's page.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Longwell's rookie kickoff average was 65.7 and he had 11 touchbacks. When you compare that to some of the best outdoor, cold weather kickers in the league, those numbers compare favorably.

John Kasay's kickoff average that year was 63.2, and he had 7 touchbacks.

Adam Vinatieri's kickoff average that year was 62.4, and he had 4 touchbacks.

Matt Stover's kickoff average that year was 64.9, and he had 15 touchbacks. That was also his best year, by far, in the last 14 years. Since then, his kickoff average has been around 61, and has never had more than 7 touchbacks in a season.

David Akers has never had a kickoff average as high as Longwell's during his rookie year. Akers did average about 2 yards more, and average about 2 touchbacks/year more than Longwell was from 1998-2002.

When Jeff Wilkins last kicked outdoors, he averaged 62.5, and he had 9 touchbacks.

[gureski]

His kickoffs weren't pathetic early in his career. His rookie year, he averaged 65.7 yards/kickoff and had 11 touchbacks. Amongst the league leaders. Through 2002, he averaged around 61-62 yards/kickoff and around 5-7 touchbacks. The rookie year numbers were excellent. From 1998-2002, his numbers were around average. We really saw a decline in his kickoffs starting in 2003.

YOu reference the league leaders and touchbacks... where did you find that info? I'd like to see where Longwell fit in each year.

Thanks,
Rick

NFL.com

They don't have league leaders, so you'll have a lot of research to do, but they do show how each kicker did on kickoffs if you go to the player's page.

You had mentioned Longwell was amongst the league leaders his rookie year. What other numbers did you find that year for other players you looked at? You could save me some research by disclosing yours. Last time I researched Longwell, he didn't even look average when it came to kick-offs. I always remember kick-offs being an issue since his first few years. Holmgren was always cranky about field position and eventually they started to have Longwell kick for direction instead of distance because he didn't have the leg to boom the ball.

I'm wondering about the 11 Touchbacks blip on his radar screen because the NFL, around the time of Longwell's rookie season, changed the size of the ball or they didn't let the kickers rough the ball up or something and they also changed the hash mark in which kick-offs took place. With that in mind, 11 touchbacks may not have been as impressive then compared to what 11 touchbacks would be today. Do you recall what place Longwell was that year or what others around him had (total Touchbacks)?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Compared to other outdoor, cold weather kickers his numbers compared very favorably. The only problem is I could only find numbers for guys that are still in the league. There were dome kickers that had better numbers (Morten Andersen was ridiculously good that year), and Jason Elam had similar numbers (but he kicked in Mile High). I probably shouldn't have said that he was amongst the leaders--because without researching every kicker, that's hard to say for sure. However, compared to the guys I just mentioned, he was near the top of the list in both categories.

[Creepy]

Stop talking about the Gb weather, GB did not play every game in GB in December and the weather has not been that bad in December for a long time. His kick-offs sucked, end of story.

I love his percentages and they look pretty. I still remember the no-go signal in his lastyear. I remember him jissing FGs inthe first half and then in teh second half GB is down by 9 with 6 minuets left. My recollections of Longwell is that if the FG didn't matter, he would hit it. If it woudl make a big difference inthegame he would blow it.

Too many first hal f wiffs left GB trying to score twice with 6 minutes left instead of once. Longwell was a nice feel good story, buthe wasn't worth the money and he wasn't as good as everybody wnat to remember.

[HarveyWallbangers]

You can say what you want, but when a kicker has the following stats, there's nothing you can say that will make me think he wasn't an excellent kicker.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/4080/career;_ylt=AqqQNwGNB.Jr3_3yhGzf7kf.uLYF

Rayner made 74.3% of his kicks last year. Longwell only had 2 years where he made less than 82% of his kicks. It might be awhile before we see a kicker perform as well as he did, year in and year out.

Green Bay isn't just about the cold. It's about the wind also. You can say the Green Bay weather isn't that bad, but look at his split stats. According to Yahoo, in 42 of his 144 games as a Packer he kicked in windy conditions. In 38 of his 144 games as a Packer he kicked in cold or frigid conditions. That's a lot. Maybe there's some kind of Yahoo conspiracy to try to make Longwell look better than he was, but I'll take the numbers he put up year in, year out--despite the whining.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/4080/splits;_ylt=Au7yT1LA5h9MXMleb2vOGZz.uLYF?year=care er