Manuel???? WTF

[Tony Oday]

Manuel had just one interception and knocked down four passes. Nagged by early injuries, he missed 15 tackles, the most on the team. However, he did lead all Green Bay defensive backs with a career-high 103 tackles.


How, when, where did all these happen? I mean if he doesnt have the nagging injuries does that mean that he could be the guy with Collins.

[BallHawk]

Tackles aren't an "official" NFL statistic, thus the amount of tackles a player has varies. ESPN will count their own stats and then the actual team will count their own stats. It causes for a lot of confusion. I remember a year back Nick Barnett's tackle total varied between 25-35 tackles, depending on where you looked.

In regard to Manuel, I could care less if he got 200 tackles. If he still can't cover WR then he's useless. I would rather see him get 50 tackles and improve on his coverage.

[Tony Oday]

what I am saying is that he can tackle do you think the nagging injuries where just to the point were he couldnt athletically get to where he knew he needed to be?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Personally, I was shocked at how poor he looked last year, and I can't believe it was injuries all year. I thought he looked a lot better in Seattle--when he was a key part of their Super Bowl team. His injury in the Bowl really hurt the Hawks. He just seems a very poor fit for the scheme. I really didn't have a lot of problems with him in the box, but his coverage is poor. That doesn't bode well for a player in this scheme.

[The Leaper]

I'm still convinced that Collins should be the safety that plays closer to the line of scrimmage and covers the TE. Unfortunately, the Packer system likes that player to also be a leader and "quarterback" of the defense. Collins doesn't seem to have the brains for that, which is why I think they hesitate moving him into that role even though his skills seem to point to putting him there.

So, we get a supposedly smart guy like Manual...but he can't play deep coverage (or short coverage for that matter) worth a damn. It isn't a good fit. We play tight coverage on the LOS with our CBs...we need some safeties with coverage skills, but I don't really see either Collins or Manual being very capable of making plays against the pass 15+ yards downfield. We are trying to put square pegs into round holes.

[Tarlam!]

Frankly, I don't give a snot about Manual's performance last year.

He came in much ballihooed, was injured and had trouble finding his rythm.

Last year is over. I am interested if he can provide leadership this year. He is NOT injured, the defensive system is NOT new.

If he cannot, then, he should be a backup.

I am more interested in Rouse anyways. And I havenÄt forgotten about Marviel in the least.

I wanna know: will our Safeties be a liability again?

[RashanGary]

what I am saying is that he can tackle do you think the nagging injuries where just to the point were he couldnt athletically get to where he knew he needed to be?

I agree. Let's see how he fares this year and if he flops he's done. If he soars he's in. I'm not going to chalk an entire career up to failure after an injury plagued season. Let's see how he plays healthy. I'd say there is a good chance he's better thsi year. How much better? That I don't know but if its enough to stop the long pass plays, it might be enough to bring this defense to another plateau. A plateau that includes the playoffs if we're really fortunate.

[pittstang5]

Sometimes, watching Manuel made me wish that they still had Roman - Now, that's saying something!

I want the best Safety tandem on the field, period. Whether that's Collins and Manuel, Manuel and Underwood, Collins and Underwood, Rouse and Collins.....whatever. The Pack Safeties need to strike the fear of God into anyone that goes over the middle.

[rpiotr01]

If he still can't cover WR then he's useless.

At this point I'd be happy just to see him cover a TE, never mind a WR... :roll:

[Packnut]

Manuel was resonsible for more td's than ANY saftey in recent Packer history. The injury is just an excuse. He's slow and that's the bottom line. Even more important, he is not a cover saftey. Now the jury is still out on Nick but I still think he's better playing close to the line.

Manuel just does'nt fit our scheme. We have to have at least one saftey who can cover or else we'll see more broken coverages and guys running free in our secondary. Some of you guys need to wake up when it comes to player evaluation. Believe what your eyes show you, not what you wanna believe. Losing teams are built on holding out hope that a player is gonna turn it around............

[BallHawk]

Sometimes, watching Manuel made me wish that they still had Roman - Now, that's saying something!

The sad part about that is, it's not an exaggeration. He really is that bad at times.

Supposedly, Underwood is ahead of schedule in rehab. I would love to see him get the starting gig.

[Packnut]

Sometimes, watching Manuel made me wish that they still had Roman - Now, that's saying something!

The sad part about that is, it's not an exaggeration. He really is that bad at times.

Supposedly, Underwood is ahead of schedule in rehab. I would love to see him get the starting gig.


Bigby is my dark horse pick to win the starting job. I remember seeing him in one of the televised Europe games a while back and he kinda stood out.

[BallHawk]

I think he should make the team just because his name is "Atari." :D

Don't count out Rouse. The guy definitely has the measureables, but he needs to use them better.

Anybody know how Culver is doing?

[RashanGary]

Atari is big and strong. Apparently he's caught on pretty well on the defnese.

We have

1 - Collins
2 - Manuel, Underwood, Bigby, Culver


We have 4 guys at safety and 3 of them are unproven. We need one person to step up and our defense will have covered it's only GLARING weakness. I'm really hoping we get a player from that group.

[packers11]

The competition will be really good going into training camp...

All going for the SS role -

Underwood
Manuel
Atari
Culver
Rouse

Let the best man win! :bump:

[RashanGary]

I doubt Rouse will play well. I'm hoping for Underwood, Bigby or even Culver. Manuel is sort of a SS/LB hybrid. I think he might play well as the nickle back where he could play a rover type role.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I doubt Rouse will play well.

Why?

[4and12to12and4]

Way too much criticism of Manuel's play last year. If the year would've been over at the 8 game point last season, everyone here would've said that Harris, Woodson, Collins, Manuel, and ALL of the DB's sucked. Everyone of them got burned at one time or another. It was only the second half that Woodson started picking QB's off. Manuel had to adjust to our scheme, which is a MUCH harder task than just covering a guy on the outside, although that requires its own physical talents, Manuels job is much tougher mentally to know where to be. His weakness as i saw it wasnt that he isnt capable of covering, he just tends to play the run, he went unnoticed by many of you in games where he came flying in on 5 or 6 key run plays to make great tackles saving 1st downs, and the reason is because by the time the game was over, he had stepped up one too many times and left the middle of the field open, and left his corners out to dry. It would seem that part of his game is cerebral, not physical, and should be able to be improved upon, and maybe he was getting better at picking his moments the last 4 games, it would explain why our entire DB unit seemed to be top 5 in the league in those last games. (the teams we played helped a little). He has a year in OUR system, and Collins is now past the learning curve AND the sophmore jinx.
I think our safety situation if very good, we should be more worried about Woodson and Harris losing a step or getting injured. (and i'm not talking about the fake injuries that Chucky has nagging him every week just enough to keep him out of practice but in the game :wink: ).

[RashanGary]

Everything I read about Rouse was that he is stiff and not too great in coverage. He just seems to lack agility/change of direction skills that are typically found in good safety's.

I prefer a shorter, compact safety like Collins or Butler to a long, lanky safety like Rouse. I just think defense has a lot to do iwth agility. Lower center of gravity = greater agility = Rouse has an obstical to overcome. He might be OK, but nothing about his scouting reports screams "quick learner, ready to contribute as a starting NFL safety" to me.

[RashanGary]

I'd rather have a 5'11" guy with long arms and a big reach who can carry 205 lbs well than a 6'2" guy who carry's 215 lbs.

Why? A short compact guy can move better and even though he's 10 lbs lighter, I think that 10 lbs off and lower center of gravity allows a guy like Collins to make an on the fly adjustment to get his pads on the RB or WR better than a guy who is heavier and taller who mgiht carry more potential but has a hard time adjusting his body and maybe can't get as many clean hits.

[woodbuck27]

We have alot of options in young safetys so either Manuel gets there as a better cover SS (no excuses left) or he needs to be sacked.

[Tarlam!]

I'd rather have a 5'11" guy with long arms and a big reach who can carry 205 lbs well than a 6'2" guy who carry's 215 lbs.



I'll remind you of this when Rouse intercepts in front of Moss' nose in the SB and returns it for the winning TD.


And I will write "I TOLD YOU SO, NICK!"

And, you will squirm like a Viqueen..... Bwhahaahhahaah!

[4and12to12and4]

I'd rather have a 5'11" guy with long arms and a big reach who can carry 205 lbs well than a 6'2" guy who carry's 215 lbs.

Why? A short compact guy can move better and even though he's 10 lbs lighter, I think that 10 lbs off and lower center of gravity allows a guy like Collins to make an on the fly adjustment to get his pads on the RB or WR better than a guy who is heavier and taller who mgiht carry more potential but has a hard time adjusting his body and maybe can't get as many clean hits.

Well, here are some of the better free and strong safties in the league (imho) little to big :wave: ( i know the icon is the wave, but, get it???? little to big, ok i suck)

Bob Sanders 5'8" 206
Nick Harper 5'10" 182
Mke Brown 5'10" 207
James Sanders 5'10" 210
Troy Polamalu 5'10" 212
Nick Collins 5' 11" 200
Antoine Bethea 5'11" 203
Ed Reed 5'11" 200
Tony Parrish 5' 11" 210
Danieal Manning 5'11" 210
Lawyer Milloy 6'0" 190
Will Demps 6'0" 208
Dexter Jackson 6'0" 210
Brian Dawkins 6'0" 210
Daniel Bullocks 6'0 212
Dawan Landry 6'0" 220
Roy Williams 6'0" 229
Micheal Huff 6'1" 205
Rodney Harrison 6'1" 220
Darren Sharper 6'2" 210
John Lynch 6'2" 220
Sean Taylor 6'2" 232
Adrian Wilson 6'3" 230

One could argue that John Lynch, Darren Sharper, Rodney Harrison, and Adrian Wilson are in the top tier of safties in the league (or at least were at one point in their career) and they are all 6'1" to 6'3" and are between 210 and 230 lbs. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just wanted to show the average height and weight of some of the better safeties in the game today. I think it does show, however, that in that case of a good DB, "size doesn't necessarily matter". It's arguable. I personally think Bob Sanders and Mike Brown could be the two best in the league and they are both under 5'11". But we have seen how a very agile, speedy, shorter DB picked in the 1st round can be a bust here in GB, haven't we? Mr. Grabby himself. So, I personally don't think that Rouses stats take anything away from his potential.

In line with this issue is a story that ESPN is spinning right now about Kevin Durant, how he can't even benchpress 185 lbs. one time, and will that take him down on the draft charts. The answer: NO He's a badass, regardless of how much he can bench, i've seen him time and time again working in the paint, and he knows how to use his frame. That's really the key isn't it, each athlete just being able to understand his/her own body. Greatness comes in many forms. Just look at the Baltimore Ravens backfield and you can see that.

[RashanGary]

We have alot of options in young safetys so either Manuel gets there as a better cover SS (no excuses left) or he needs to be sacked.

Wow, we're on the same page, in the same paragraph and damn near on the same sentence with this one. Rare. I guess this is just obvious enough for us to agree :)

[woodbuck27]

We have alot of options in young safetys so either Manuel gets there as a better cover SS (no excuses left) or he needs to be sacked.

Wow, we're on the same page, in the same paragraph and damn near on the same sentence with this one. Rare. I guess this is just obvious enough for us to agree :)

Hey. . . when your right your right. :)

[HarveyWallbangers]

Everything I read about Rouse was that he is stiff and not too great in coverage. He just seems to lack agility/change of direction skills that are typically found in good safety's.

You're willing to give Manuel another chance (a guy who looked as stiff as a board last year), but you want to write off a young 3rd round pick who ran his 40 in the 4.4s before you even get a chance to see him?

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/players/91264

The good: Rouse attacks the line of scrimmage and finishes plays with powerful tackling. He uses his hands well to separate from blockers and stay on his feet with the power to fight through bigger athletes. He is the ideal strong safety with rare size and speed, and he likes to play a physical brand of football. He is very quick to support the run and make good decisions at the line of scrimmage. He reads and reacts quickly to the play and gets off blockers very well with a downhill style at the line. In pass coverage, he has developed the ability to read the passer and the route with the athleticism to break on the ball and make plays. He also has the ability to cover premier tight ends.

The bad: He is a classic safety/linebacker ‘tweener who some think may have outgrown the safety position, requiring a move to weakside linebacker as a pro. He needs some development in pass coverage, but has the athletic components to progress in that regard.

Outlook: Needs some time to refine his coverage skills before being an every down starter. He is learning the finer points of play recognition and he has further upside from here. Good pick in the middle of the first day with the ability to be a fine strong safety. Should also be an excellent special teams player. Best gunner prospect in this class. Rouse is a marginal top-50 prospect with impact ability as a special teams demon as a rookie. He could develop into a very good starting strong safety within a short time. Look for him to be drafted in the second or third round.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'd rather have a 5'11" guy with long arms and a big reach who can carry 205 lbs well than a 6'2" guy who carry's 215 lbs.

Actually, he's 6'4" 225.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Adrian Wilson 6'3" 230

Perhaps the best safety in football. At least, top three.


Sean Taylor 6'2" 232

Another damn good one.

OL used to be 280 pounds, and a 6'1" WR used to be considered big. Things are changing at all positions towards bigger and faster.

[HarveyWallbangers]

The thing about Rouse is that he's big, but he's also fast. I haven't heard that he is stiff. I've heard he needs to work on his coverage skills and his recognition, but not that he is stiff. His body type is lean, so I won't assume that until I see him.

http://cmsimg.packersnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=U0&Dato=20070608&Kategori=PKRCAMP&Lopenr=706080806&Ref=PH&Item=10&MaxW=350

[Bossman641]

Manuel actually did a pretty good job of filling holes and helping out on run defense. However, he was HORRIBLE in space last year. He regularly missed tackles in 1 on 1 situations and was exposed in the passing game as well.

To me, he just doesn't look athletic. Guys like Collins look like they can run and change direction. Manuel's body type doesn't give me that feeling at all. He looks too big to be a safety. I'm all for open competition and giving him a chance again this year however. I hope he was injured last year.