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View Full Version : PACKERS NEWS PD TRANSCRIPT: REVELATIONS



TopHat
06-26-2007, 07:33 AM
Excellent stuff about K-Rob, Jones, Shermans' drafts, OL, Johnson,future CEO, Hodge, Current Trade Rumors, et al.

http://forums.packersnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=14668

June 25, 2007: Pete Dougherty transcript
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So, I have a question. I read an analyst talking about the packers and he said "the questions with green bay's offense have no answers, now that william henderson is gone who is going to block for their new running back?". This guy was a writer for ESPN or sportsline I forget, and i have to ask, Is that embarressing? Writing about sports for a living and having no clue what you are talking about? I meen what a joke seriuosly. If he actualy knew about football he would realise that he wasnt even our starter, and when our starter got hurt and henderson had to come in our running game was worse. I also heard on sportscenter someone saying "with kampman on one end and KGB on the others they form a good DE tandem" hey news flash guys who talk about sports for a living - KGB lost his starting job oh i dont know 8 months ago!!! Who are these guys seriuosly?!?!?! If i got paid good money to talk about sports, i would make sure i know what im talking about. Anyways, are the packers working on an extension with K-Rob? thats what i heard, im all for it, i think he is getting his life back on track(i hope anyways) and i think everyone forgets hes young, fresh, pro bowl kick returner and a former 1000+ yard plus reciever. I'll take him on my team anyday.

PETE DOUGHERTY: Ok everybody, let's get started. Yes, the Henderson comment in inexplicable, but I didn't see it. As far as Robinson, I haven't heard about an extension for him and don't think it's likely, though I could be wrong. If I remember right they signed him to a two-year deal, so they still have a ways to go on that, and he's not even been allowed back in the league yet -- that will happen if he stays out of trouble and then petitions the commissioner in October. It's hardly a given he'll even be on the team this year, depending on how the other guys are playing when he comes back.
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In the last posting of the previous weeks chat you mentioned that locals Andrew Brandt and Jason Wied would be interested in the CEO job, and outside candidates Rich McKay and Bruce Allen could be in the picture. I live in Tampa, and know both of the 'outsiders'. Selecting either of them would be the single most disastrous thing to happen to the Pack Org since Dan Devine. Those two are nut cases. Hopefully Mike Reinfeldt will come back or Mike Holmgren will consider the job If not, go with the locals. Please tell me McKay and Allen are not really in the hunt

PETE DOUGHERTY: I never said McKay and Allen are in the picture, those were guys former Atlanta GM and Wolf right-hand man Ken Herock thought would be good candidates. I've seen nothing to suggest the Packers are interested in either, but that will be up to the Executive Committee when it commences its search. Holmgren doesn't seem to fit the qualities Harlan has talked about -- extensive administrative experience in the NFL -- but you never know.
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It's been 3 years since Sherman's last draft; there are 10 guys he got with his picks or as rookie FA's listed as starters by their teams: Kampman, J. Walker, Al Harris, Barnett, Wells, Jenkins, V. Leach, P. Lenon, C. Williams, S. McHugh. Some weren't kept by GM Thompson, but that's still more than 3 starters per year which is a great draft, and 3 played in Pro Bowls. Sherman failed to keep H. Hillenmeyer, T. Sands, and T. Glenn. There are 15 others who've been on rosters the last 2 years, and/or are now. Some have been starters or key back-ups, and a few may yet prove out: C. Cole, K. Barry, N. Davenport, A. Chatman, C. Nall, A. Carrol, J. Thomas, C. Johnson, S. Morley, BJ Sander, J. Horton, T. Fisher, B. Steele, B. Bedell, K. Peterson. All but Cole were not kept by Thompson. Sherman always drafted late, having won 12-12-10 games respectively; yet, how many other teams did as well? Is his drafting fairly considered?

PETE DOUGHERTY: You make a good and fair point about how late he was always drafting, and he definitely hit on the some picks, most notbably Walker and also Kampman and Barnett. But look at his '03 draft, Barnett is the only guy in that draft worth a darn, no one else is still on the team, and Hillenmeyenmeyer is with the Bears. That's a bad draft. The problem with Sherman's drafts was he traded up too much, and the guys he traded up for failed too often. That meant he spent two picks on one player and got nothing out of it. He did it for James Lee, Donnell Washington, Kenny Peterson and most notably, B.J. Sander. They spent eight picks on those four players.
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I have been following the draft pretty closely ever since the Colts won the Superbowl. I have to admit I have never heard of James Jones going into the draft. Many "draft experts" have made it clear that they think he was one of the biggest reaches of the draft. After hearing about how well he has played so far in mini-camp and also hearing Mike McCarthy say his play should only be elevated when the pads come on, have you seen enough to tell you that this kid is 3rd round value yet? Or are we just gonna have to wait until the season to know that Ted Thompson pulled another "Greg Jennings"? Also, If James Jones produces well as a rookie this season (along with a few other rookies that should produce early), is this finally enough credibility to put Thompson in the "above average" category of G.M.s?

PETE DOUGHERTY: I haven't seen enough of Jones to know, though I'd have to say that Jennings looked better at this point last year than Jones has this year. Jennings was quick and got open a lot even in the minicamps, if I remember correctly. Jones does catch the ball well, he's a hands catcher and doesn't let the ball get to his body, that's the thing you notice about him. The Packers are speaking well of him, but you'd expect nothing less no matter what.
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I recently started a post in the talk football forum comparing the rosters prior to the 2004 season (Sherman last season as GM) to the roster today. I broke down all the positions and based projections on whether we are better off or worse at each postition. My criteria was based on:

- Fit for current scheme
- Leadership quality and locker room presence
- Age and potential
- Salary cap vs value

Overall, I think we are a much better team at most positions and either better or even at every position on defense. I think the area we are most improved is in the back ups and special teams. What is your assesment of the look of the roster prior to the 2004 season and the look of the roster prior to the 2007 season? I think we have better team chemistry, better potential and youth, better depth but not as much experience. Some of that goes hand in hand but I feel we are a better team than we were prior to the 2004 season.

PETE DOUGHERTY: I disagree with your assessment of the offenses. That's the year Walker broke out, and the Packers don't have a playmaker of his caliber, and Gren was still a really good back, we can't say that about Morency and Jackson. Plus, Favre is three years older. And the offensive line was excellent that year, one of the best in the league. The line now could be a year away. So while I'd agree the defense is better, I'd say the offense isn't close to as good on paper. But that's only on paper. Maybe Jackson ends up being good, or Jennings has a huge year. Those are maybes or projectsions. Back in '04, Green wasn't a projection, and Walker had started showing real signs of breaking out the second half of '03, and the line was already good in '03. So I'd say things looked better going into '04.
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Since it's been over a year since the Pack traded Javon Walker to the Broncos for a 2nd round pick it seems like a good time to discuss whether that was a good move or not and how it has affected the team long term. I think the Packers were determined to send the message after Mike McKenzie that they wouldn't extend a player with 2 years left but now that Al Harris had his contract enhanced it seems that isn't always the case. Last year GB was lousy in the red zone and we are certainly desparate for playmakers going into '07. In Walker we had a Pro Bowl reciever that we are now trying to replace with 2nd rd pick Jennings, 3rd rd pick Jones, and maybe 5th rd pick Clowney--all this with Favre's career winding down. In hindsight might we have been better off just giving Walker the contract he desired in the first place? And with all that went on before Walker was traded do you think GB is regarded as cheap by players (free agents) around the league. Your thoughts please...

PETE DOUGHERTY: Yes, they would have been better off giving Walker the extension in the offseason of '04. I understand why they didn't, but even at that point the economics of the game were changing and players were getting upgraded contracts after one great season. By the time they traded him the relationship was wrecked and he was so soured on Green Bay he wasn't coming back, so I don't blame them for making the deal. But yes, they should have some how worked that out. Some players might consider the Packers cheap, but I doubt, say, Nick Barnett or Al Harris think that, or Charles Woodson. And if they offer another player a big contract in free agency next year, I doubt he'll consider them cheap. I think the agents know Thompson isn't going to be a regular in high-stakes free agency, but he's paid some of his own guys plus Woodson and to a lesser degree Pickett.
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LJ would seem to be the ideal (if he can run in the zone scheme -- can he?). If so, what do you think it would take to get him? And, given your answer, would our GM do it?

PETE DOUGHERTY: I'm guessing Johnson would at a minimum cost a first-round pick, and probably more -- a first and a third or fourth, perhaps. Johnson will turn 28 in November, which is getting up there a little bit for a running back. I'd be very surprised if Thompson would spend both that much draft bounty plus the big contract it would take to sign him. That's just my take, I don't know that for a fact. But he might have only a couple more really good years left in him -- remember Green, for instance, starting dissipating gradually beginning at about 28 or 29. I'm guessing Johnson's age makes the move too risky for Thompson at this point.
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I hear that representatives of the Packers have been visiting the handful of players expected to be in the Supplemental Draft next month at those players' recent Pro Days. Do you have any reason to believe that the Packers have any serious interest in any of the players available? Or is their presence at these players' pro days just a matter of doing their due diligence on them?

PETE DOUGHERTY: I'd suspect more the latter, it's not clear any of these guys will get taken with a first-day pick, so there are no major prospects here. But they might put late bids on a guy or two if they kind of like them to see if they slip through.
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How severe was the injury that held Abdul Hodge out of all the OTAs? And what are your thoughts about his readiness to step in for Nick Barnett if Barnett is suspended for any games this season?

PETE DOUGHERTY: It was severe enough to keep him on the sidelines all offseason, so it wasn't just a minor injury. So he hasn't had a chance to improve at all from last year. He played really poorly in the one game (Seattle) he started last year after Barnett hurt his hand, so I'd be a little concerned if I were the Packers, because he'd be farther ahead if he'd practiced all offseason.
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Mr. Dougherty, Of the rookies left to sign to their rookie contracts which one do you think will be the hardest to get signed?

PETE DOUGHERTY: It's always the first-round pick. But I'd bet he'll be on the field for the first or second practice of training camp.
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Mr. Dougherty, I was wondering have you noticed how Coach McCarthy has grown in his job as head coach from last season?

PETE DOUGHERTY: Tough thing to put your finger on. He's much more comfortable dealing with reporters, etc. He's also comfortable enough to make a relatively important change in the training camp schedule and give the players Wednesdays off from practicing -- they'll still have meetings and walkthroughs, but no on-the-field practice.
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Since you studied the draft, play GM Ted Thompson for a minute just for fun. Would you have taken Harrell as your pick? Or would you have taken someone else? I would have taken CB Leon Hall from michigan at that point. thanks for the chat.

PETE DOUGHERTY: I'm hardly a draft expert, I only know what scouts told me about prospects, and many of those opinions differed quite a bit. Actually going by kind of a consensus of what they said, Harrell might have been the guy I'd take. But I would have seriously considered WR Dwayne Bowe and maybe DE Jarvis Moss. One scout I talked to really, really liked Moss and thought he might be a big-impact type guy. From what scouts told me, it sounds like Hall would have been for a team that plays more zone than the Packers do -- he didn't appear to be as good a bump-and-run guy as they'd want for their defense. Maybe the scouts who told me that were wrong, though. Lynch and Revis would have been the guys I wanted, but they were gone by No. 16.
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Thanks for taking my question. The Chicago Tribune floated a rumor that John McDonough Cubs president who is a likely lame duck based on when the Cubs sale happens, could be a candidate for packers CEO. What say you?

PETE DOUGHERTY: Harlan has said they need some one with extensive NFL experience. McDonough has none that I know of, so I'd think that would eliminate him.
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Because of some big hits in the beginning of Training camp last year, Hodge has got a lot of HYPE generated about him with talk of him replacing Barnett MLB and Barnett moving outside at times.
From watching him when he has got a chance to play and in pre season last year I dont see him as anything more thn a back up and special teams player. He looks like a between the tackles MLB that has some ability against the run. His play in space, lack lateral movement and speed seem to hinder him with side line to side line play and coverage. Am I missing something or is he what I think.

PETE DOUGHERTY: That's what I saw last year also. But they liked his instincts, so perhaps as he gets more experienced he'll play a little faster, anticipate better, etc. But it looks like he's strictly a middle linebacker, not a two- or three-position guy. Don't know if he'll become starting quality or not.
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So far with the rookies who is your favorite to talk to and why? It seems like this draft has again produced some good locker room personalities and I like the direction TT is moving with this team. I would much rather a injury prone guy like Will Blackmon who is a great locker room guy and is trying as hard as possible to get better than a guy with all the talent in the world who is an off field distraction and poor locker room presence.

PETE DOUGHERTY: I can't say I've talked to any of the rookies that much -- I don't know if I've talked to Harrell at all, he was never in the locker room when it was open to reporters. I talked to Rouse for a while because I did an extremely personal story on him and his family and upbringing, and he addressed all questions head on, didn't flinch or anything. Seemed pretty mature for a young guy from a tough background.
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Besides the kicker battle (which I am not too interested in) what do you see as the most competitive battles in training camp and why? As I review the roster I only see Clifton, Favre, Driver, Collins, Hawk, Barnett, Kampman, Harris, Woodson and maybe Colledge as players who have their job locked up. Also, do you think Clark Harris could beat out Rob Davis for the Long Snapper job? (Yes I am that desperate I am asking about long snapping)

PETE DOUGHERTY: Harris hasn't looked good snapping, so Davis looks safe to me. The battles at safety (Manual, Rouse and Underwood), No. 3 corner (Blackmon, Walker and Dendy) and No. 3 receiver (Jones, Martin, Holiday, maybe Ferguson) will be worth watching. Plus, I guess Harrell and Williams at DT, and Jackson and Morency at RB, though they could end up splitting time. I think there's a lot more jobs locked up, or close to it. The entire O-line, Jenkins at DE, probably Poppinga at LB, Jennings at WR.
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Do you have any information on Harrell's injury? I know McCarthy said he would be available come training camp but that is the same thing he said about Blackmon who missed the majority of the season last year. I always get worried with injuries because coaches never tell you how serious an injury is until they have already put the player on IR. I would hope the TT and his staff did enough research before the draft on Harrell to know he would be able to contribute this year but I just get nervous since I last heard he should of been ready to go in the OTA's. Also, have you seen any indication in the drills that he has participated in to think this guy could be a stud?

PETE DOUGHERTY: You're right to be extremely wary of injury information, teams underplay injuries all the time. Blackmon is only one of numerous examples. Going by the time line of Harrell's injury and other guys who have had it, he should be good to go at training camp, he'll be close to 10 months removed from surgery by then. His bench-press reps went up from like 17 or 18, to the low 30s from February to his campus workout, so that suggests he was getting stronger and healthier in the offseason. He only did some individual drills, so no, there's no way to tell if he's any good.
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Thanks for taking my question. With all the turmoil around theBears, (TankJohnson, Briggs, Rivera) do you think that they can be caught by GB this year?

PETE DOUGHERTY: I'd bet against it. They still have Urlacher and get back Harris and Brown on defense. That rookie TE in the first round might help their passing game a little. Grossman should get a little better with his judgment, so no. I'd still pick the Bears as a prohibitive favorite to win the division barring an injury to Urlacher.
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Do you think that Ron Wolf would have interest in becoming the head cheesehead in Packerland? I think that the organization needs someone who has won in the past, and he seems like he will always be connected to GB in one way or another. I'm not so sure that he'd want to leave Annapolis for another tour of duty in WI, but he would certainly bring credibility to the post and get the fans excited. Maybe he's a little too close to TT to send him packing if need be though...

PETE DOUGHERTY: I think Wolf is 68, so he could only be president for two years and then would reach mandatory retirement age of 70 (it's in the Packers' by-laws). He also said he doesn't think he's qualified for the job.
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Could it be LJ!?!?!?!?!

PETE DOUGHERTY: Don't know. Could be. Maybe Culpepper. Or maybe there's nothing to it. Looks like that's all the questions, and time's up. Thanks for the queries and take care.

Bretsky
06-26-2007, 05:41 PM
Great Stuff; Thanks for posting. Found this intriuging. It should be interesting to see if Teddy has found us a capable #3 WR


I have been following the draft pretty closely ever since the Colts won the Superbowl. I have to admit I have never heard of James Jones going into the draft. Many "draft experts" have made it clear that they think he was one of the biggest reaches of the draft. After hearing about how well he has played so far in mini-camp and also hearing Mike McCarthy say his play should only be elevated when the pads come on, have you seen enough to tell you that this kid is 3rd round value yet? Or are we just gonna have to wait until the season to know that Ted Thompson pulled another "Greg Jennings"? Also, If James Jones produces well as a rookie this season (along with a few other rookies that should produce early), is this finally enough credibility to put Thompson in the "above average" category of G.M.s?

PETE DOUGHERTY: I haven't seen enough of Jones to know, though I'd have to say that Jennings looked better at this point last year than Jones has this year. Jennings was quick and got open a lot even in the minicamps, if I remember correctly. Jones does catch the ball well, he's a hands catcher and doesn't let the ball get to his body, that's the thing you notice about him. The Packers are speaking well of him, but you'd expect nothing less no matter what.

wist43
06-27-2007, 07:54 AM
Don't see how Jones has much upside beyond a possession guy... he's strong, and can run the short routes and break tackles, but he isn't going to strike fear in a defense.

Granted we haven't seen them in pads yet, but I see Jones as being pretty comparable to Holliday. Don't see how he makes us better than what we already had.

The first three picks are like that across the board: Harrell/Williams, Jackson/Green (we're worse here - younger, but worse), Jones/Holliday/Martin.

HarveyWallbangers
06-27-2007, 09:03 AM
Granted we haven't seen them in pads yet

Patler
06-27-2007, 09:24 AM
The first three picks are like that across the board: Harrell/Williams, Jackson/Green (we're worse here - younger, but worse), Jones/Holliday/Martin.

So you don't see Jones as having any more potential than a couple free agent guys who prior to coming to GB had spent most of their pro careers unemployed or on practice squads?????

Patler
06-27-2007, 09:27 AM
Don't see how Jones has much upside beyond a possession guy... he's strong, and can run the short routes and break tackles, but he isn't going to strike fear in a defense.



...and how many receivers in the NFL do "strike fear in a defense"???

wist43
06-27-2007, 09:39 AM
Holliday looked pretty good at the end of last year - at least in terms of what you would ask of a #3 in this offense, i.e. he's strong, ran decent routes, and caught everything thrown his way.

He made several very nice catches in the last 4 games.

Surely you don't expect Jones to be a "difference maker", i.e. a guy who can either get deep, or take a short pass to the house??? Jennings has that potential, but from what little I've seen and read of Jones he doesn't figure to be a difference maker in either case - he lacks deep speed and short area burst. His strengths are that he has good size, good hands, and is very strong. Sounds like Holliday to me.

At this early point, I think the Jones/Holliday comparison is apt.

wist43
06-27-2007, 09:44 AM
Don't see how Jones has much upside beyond a possession guy... he's strong, and can run the short routes and break tackles, but he isn't going to strike fear in a defense.



...and how many receivers in the NFL do "strike fear in a defense"???

Terrell Owens was a third round pick...

run pMc
06-27-2007, 09:51 AM
If the rookie WRs turn out OK for GB, they end up with a deep threat (Clowney) and a possession guy (Jones). That's not bad. If Jones doesn't become anything better than a good #3 WR, that's still better than what Favre had last year. Fergy and KoRo aren't exactly dependable. If I was TT/M3, I wouldn't be satisfied with Fergy, Ruvell, and Holliday as my guys at the 3-5 WR spots.

As for Ahman, I liked him and was unhappy he left, but I don't think he had much left in the tank. His age, past workload, physical style, and injury history all work against him having many more productive years. Whether he re-signed with GB or not, TT needed to draft a RB, and with Lynch and Peterson gone I don't have a problem with him taking a guy in the 2nd round that fits the ZBS.

Harrell was a decent pick. Williams hasn't re-signed yet, so that gives TT some leverage. Building a good D-Line can't hurt...I don't miss James Lee.

Having said all that, I do agree TT needs to keep upgrading the WR and RB spots.

Patler
06-27-2007, 10:31 AM
Don't see how Jones has much upside beyond a possession guy... he's strong, and can run the short routes and break tackles, but he isn't going to strike fear in a defense.



...and how many receivers in the NFL do "strike fear in a defense"???

Terrell Owens was a third round pick...

11 years ago!

You seem to be dissatisfied unless the first day picks all perform like top 10 picks, and all second day picks become reliable starters. It doesn't work that way, never has and never will.

The Leaper
06-27-2007, 01:30 PM
So you don't see Jones as having any more potential than a couple free agent guys who prior to coming to GB had spent most of their pro careers unemployed or on practice squads?????

I have to agree with Wist here.

Why the hell should Jones have any more potential? The guy had ONE GOOD SEASON on a team that faced mostly the dregs of the NCAA in terms of pass defense.

Martin dominated NFLE for one season.

I call that about even in terms of on field production so far.

I'm sorry...just because Jones was taken in the 3rd round DOES NOT MEAN he automatically has more potential. Martin is a taller receiver and has gained valuable experience in pro football the last 2-3 years. Jones does not possess any noteworthy physical characteristics that give him an edge in potential. He's not overly fast, tall or agile. He apparently can catch a ball well. Great. I don't see how that is worthy of a 3rd round pick...especially in a supposedly DEEP draft at the position.

The bottom line is that the red zone production of this team has been limited in recent years because our receivers lack the size to be a threat in the red zone. Driver and Jennings don't win jump balls. Our TEs aren't exactly huge targets either...even if they could hold on to a ball. We had the chance to go after some WRs who were well proven on the college level and had great size in the 2nd round. That to me says "more potential" than Martin.

What Jones has done so far...hell, no. It doesn't impress me at all as being a sign of greater potential than Martin. Let's be honest...Donald Driver had more potential as a 7th round pick than Jones, simply because of his prowess as a track star. At least he had SOMETHING that was elite. What the hell does Jones have? What? Please enlighten us.

Patler
06-27-2007, 02:48 PM
So you don't see Jones as having any more potential than a couple free agent guys who prior to coming to GB had spent most of their pro careers unemployed or on practice squads?????

I have to agree with Wist here.

Why the hell should Jones have any more potential? The guy had ONE GOOD SEASON on a team that faced mostly the dregs of the NCAA in terms of pass defense.

Martin dominated NFLE for one season.

I call that about even in terms of on field production so far.

I'm sorry...just because Jones was taken in the 3rd round DOES NOT MEAN he automatically has more potential. Martin is a taller receiver and has gained valuable experience in pro football the last 2-3 years. Jones does not possess any noteworthy physical characteristics that give him an edge in potential. He's not overly fast, tall or agile. He apparently can catch a ball well. Great. I don't see how that is worthy of a 3rd round pick...especially in a supposedly DEEP draft at the position.

The bottom line is that the red zone production of this team has been limited in recent years because our receivers lack the size to be a threat in the red zone. Driver and Jennings don't win jump balls. Our TEs aren't exactly huge targets either...even if they could hold on to a ball. We had the chance to go after some WRs who were well proven on the college level and had great size in the 2nd round. That to me says "more potential" than Martin.

What Jones has done so far...hell, no. It doesn't impress me at all as being a sign of greater potential than Martin. Let's be honest...Donald Driver had more potential as a 7th round pick than Jones, simply because of his prowess as a track star. At least he had SOMETHING that was elite. What the hell does Jones have? What? Please enlighten us.

I really have no idea, I really was asking as much as anything.

I don't know if I have ever seen Jones play, but even if he was a reach were TT took him, he was expected to be drafted somewhere around then or the next round or so, which generally means someone saw some reasonable potential in him.

I think Martin is what he has shown himself to be, a big, slow receiver who will make some nice catches, but drop too many that he shouldn't. He's reputed to have good hands, and did make some very nice catches last year, but he also dropped too many eay ones, did in TC last year, and was mentioned to have done so several times already this off season. I just don't see a lot of potential in him. He's been around the NFL a couple years, but hasn't really made a mark,to speak of.

Holliday I have seen a lot. Mostly at QB, but his last year at ND as a punt returner and a few times at WR. He has decent size, decent speed, but I would not call him physical.

I like what I have heard about Jones, that he goes after the ball and takes it away from defenders. Reportedly he is very physical. Based on others evaluations, I expect him to have more potential than either of the others. I have no idea if he will live up to it. Ferguson would have been considered to have more potential than them too, and we know where his potential has taken him! :lol:

Scott Campbell
06-27-2007, 04:05 PM
Don't see how Jones has much upside beyond a possession guy... he's strong, and can run the short routes and break tackles, but he isn't going to strike fear in a defense.



...and how many receivers in the NFL do "strike fear in a defense"???

Terrell Owens was a third round pick...

True, but Terrell didn't strike fear into opposing defenses prior to his first NFL training camp either.

Fred's Slacks
06-27-2007, 05:35 PM
he lacks deep speed and short area burst. His strengths are that he has good size, good hands, and is very strong. Sounds like Holliday to me.

Does he really lack the short area burst? I remember M3 saying he gets good seperation in short areas. I would think that requires the short area burst. We are all pretty certain that he lacks the deep speed but so did Anquan Boldin, Antonio Freeman, Keyshawn Johnson and Jerry Rice. I'm not saying he'll be as productive as any of them but they were all diference makers that couldn't run a 4.4. The point is, I don't think you can definitively say he'll never be a diference maker based on pure, straight line speed. Again, I am not saying he will be but I don't think you can say he can't be.

Bretsky
06-27-2007, 05:49 PM
We had the chance to go after some WRs who were well proven on the college level and had great size in the 2nd round. That to me says "more potential" than Martin.


Great Point Leaper and one that some of us, including you, have been :beat: about

And maybe we are wrong and a few of those WR's who fell into round two to many of our surprise will not turn out. One of them sent Keyshawn Johnson, who we showed interest in, packing into retirement.

But that might have required the art of trading up, therefore actually giving up a pick to do so. Would have also needed a bit of foreshadowing that goes against the mentaility of let the chips fall as they may. A make it happen mentality that is pretty different from what TT has done in the draft so far. Sherman often tried, but he failed to make it happen with the right buy. I'm not sure TT has that mentality in him on draft day.

Packnut
06-27-2007, 06:18 PM
It's tough to figure out how a WR will do. Jones has a few positives and might turn out to be a good move the chains kind of guy. Problem is, it's look's like Jennings is also that type. In today's NFL, you gotta be able to stretch the D. IF we had a TE that could do it, things would'nt be as bad, but we don't. Those of you counting on Clowney are gonna be disappointed.

Teddy had a chance to draft Bowe, which is a guy that can out jump DB's. He can stretch the field and is a big RZ target. We'll find out this season whether Thompson made the right choice. I say he blew it. Bowe would have been more valuable and was more needed than Harrell. WR's also have a bigger impact on the game than DT's.

BobDobbs
06-27-2007, 06:34 PM
Obviously this is all speculation, but that is the fun part about this time of year. I have to agree with Wist that Holiday looks to be pretty similar to James Jones. I also don't think that he was saying that a 3rd pick has to be an instant game changer. I think he was questioning whether the pick brought the most value to the team.

If all you do is exchange a strong possesion guy for a very similarly abled/bodied player, then maybe your pick is better spent on say a Tight End(for example) as that is a position that a mid round prospect might bring a huge upgrade to.

I took a look at the 3rd round of the draft and James Jones was picked #78 in the midst of a run on receivers from picks #73-#80 (This includes a Tight End and Return Specialist as receivers). Considering that a Receiver hadn't been pick since Steve Smith R2(51) and wouldn't be picked until Johnnie Lee Higgins R3(99), it looks like many GMs felt that this was the time to take advantage of Receiver depth on with a First Day Pick. They are mostly smaller school guys.

I don't follow College Ball enough to trust my predictions, but I enjoy tracking players who were drafted in a similar position to see if the scouts predictions pan out. What I mean is if the Saints had know what they were getting with Colston then they should have drafted him higher. Since he is an anamoly I give them credit for drafting him, but they got a bit lucky.

If you look at a pick like Nick Barnett with both EJ. Hendersen and Boss Bailey on the board. That looks like a good pick now, but at the time those other guys were more highly rated by some scouts.

Now let's look at that run on Receivers

9(73) Houston Jacoby Jones WR LANE
10(74) Baltimore Yamon Figurs RS KANSAS STATE
11(75) Atlanta Laurent Robinson WR ILLINOIS STATE
12(76) San Francisco Jason Hill WR WASHINGTON STATE
13(77) Pittsburgh Matt Spaeth TE MINNESOTA
14(78) Green Bay James Jones WR SAN JOSE STATE
15(79) Jacksonville Mike Walker WR CENTRAL FLORIDA
17(80) Tennessee Paul Williams WR FRESNO STATE

I think the ones to compare over time are Jones, Walker, and Williams since that's who was left. It's probably worth watching those other guys too since it's pretty easy to jump up a couple spots. I just checked to other two guys bios and they are all roughly the same size, but Paul Williams speed jumps out. He did get the ball knocked away from him quite a bit, too much.

One scouting report compares Mike Walker to Greg Jennings without as much speed. He timed a little faster than James Jones. When I watch Jones on tape he looks exciting, but then I remember his level of competition and measurables. I am excited about him and look forward to preseason.

It will be fun to watch these guys careers play out over the next three years.

HarveyWallbangers
06-27-2007, 09:34 PM
True, but Terrell didn't strike fear into opposing defenses prior to his first NFL training camp either.

He also stunk his rookie year. He had a bad case of the dropsies his first couple of years in the league. It was until his catch in the playoffs against us that his career turned around, and he was absolutely horrible in that game until the final play.

Scott Campbell
06-27-2007, 10:24 PM
A make it happen mentality that is pretty different from what TT has done in the draft so far.


I think it's Ted's mentality to try and take advantage of the "make it happen" crowd like Shermy.

TopHat
06-27-2007, 10:43 PM
Soothing PD's skepticism, it's best to counter with these positive remarks about JJ and Clowney, beyond the coaches positive remarks:

"Of the six receivers who did participate [windy OTA day], only rookies James Jones and David Clowney did not drop a ball. Jones had a series of nifty grabs, including a catch between three defenders during the team period and a leaping reception in the end zone during 7-on-7."

JJ recieved national media attention for his mini-camp performance making the all-shorts team by sportingnews.com...."James Jones, WR, Packers. The third-round pick from San Jose State was quick and explosive in and out of his cuts, and he plucked every pass thrown his direction."

As fans pointed out, we shall see in training camp and preseason games leading to opening day about the "immediate playmaking" capabilities. So far, "Okay."

The Shadow
06-27-2007, 10:47 PM
It's tough to figure out how a WR will do. Jones has a few positives and might turn out to be a good move the chains kind of guy. Problem is, it's look's like Jennings is also that type. In today's NFL, you gotta be able to stretch the D. IF we had a TE that could do it, things would'nt be as bad, but we don't. Those of you counting on Clowney are gonna be disappointed.

Teddy had a chance to draft Bowe, which is a guy that can out jump DB's. He can stretch the field and is a big RZ target. We'll find out this season whether Thompson made the right choice. I say he blew it. Bowe would have been more valuable and was more needed than Harrell. WR's also have a bigger impact on the game than DT's.

Stop the presses! News Flash!!!

OS PA
06-28-2007, 12:21 AM
Soothing PD's skepticism, it's best to counter with these positive remarks about JJ and Clowney, beyond the coaches positive remarks:

"Of the six receivers who did participate [windy OTA day], only rookies James Jones and David Clowney did not drop a ball. Jones had a series of nifty grabs, including a catch between three defenders during the team period and a leaping reception in the end zone during 7-on-7."

JJ recieved national media attention for his mini-camp performance making the all-shorts team by sportingnews.com...."James Jones, WR, Packers. The third-round pick from San Jose State was quick and explosive in and out of his cuts, and he plucked every pass thrown his direction."

As fans pointed out, we shall see in training camp and preseason games leading to opening day about the "immediate playmaking" capabilities. So far, "Okay."

With recievers you look for three things before all others: Hands, Route Running, and Seperation Ability. With everything i've seen on Jones he is supurb in all three of these areas, he's a big, strong, smart, and doesn't drop anything. The only real knock on his recieving ability is his speed, and running a 4.6/40 isn't slow by any means. Jones is going to be a solid starter in three to four years, I don't expect an all-pro season this season or even next, but by his third season he'll know the league, and he'll know the little tricks that the good players use to get open. The kid is going to be good.

BobDobbs
06-28-2007, 12:24 AM
"Of the six receivers who did participate [windy OTA day], only rookies James Jones and David Clowney did not drop a ball. Jones had a series of nifty grabs, including a catch between three defenders during the team period and a leaping reception in the end zone during 7-on-7."

I love all the catches in traffic on Jones's highlight tape. He's definitely going against smaller guys who aren't playing him physical. But, going up and getting the ball is natural ability combined with a hunger for it. If he's coachable we might get a red zone scoring threat out of this guy.

Of course, critics might say that he HAS to make all those catches in traffic, because he can't get seperation. :wink:

The Leaper
06-28-2007, 08:36 AM
With recievers you look for three things before all others: Hands, Route Running, and Seperation Ability. With everything i've seen on Jones he is supurb in all three of these areas, he's a big, strong, smart, and doesn't drop anything.

What has he proven it against? How long has he proven it for?

It has been made pretty evident by most people watching camps recently that Jones did not turn heads like Jennings did last year. He did not do poorly, but he wasn't outrageously good either. He does seem to have great hands...which certainly is a plus. That could help him see playing time sooner rather than later.

However, I think it is way too early to declare that he is superb in route running or separation. He did not play long enough in college to really establish his ability...especially against the mediocre competition he was facing. Most of the big plays I have seen on tape from Jones have LITTLE to do with his route running or separation ability, and MORE to do with incompetant and overmatched DBs.

As I have maintained...I like Jones in the long term. I think he can be a starter in the NFL, which is good enough production from a 3rd round pick. However, based on the needs of this offense, I fail to see how Jones provides any real solution for what ails us. He doesn't have speed to stretch the defense. He doesn't have size to make an impact in the red zone. He doesn't have the experience (like a Jennings had last year) to step in and immediately produce on a relatively consistent basis.

This was a deep draft at WR. We had plenty of opportunity to get a different WR who offered far more potential. I'm disappointed Thompson did not make much of an attempt to do so...because ultimately that is what it takes to get a team over the top in the NFL.

Packnut
06-28-2007, 08:58 AM
It's tough to figure out how a WR will do. Jones has a few positives and might turn out to be a good move the chains kind of guy. Problem is, it's look's like Jennings is also that type. In today's NFL, you gotta be able to stretch the D. IF we had a TE that could do it, things would'nt be as bad, but we don't. Those of you counting on Clowney are gonna be disappointed.

Teddy had a chance to draft Bowe, which is a guy that can out jump DB's. He can stretch the field and is a big RZ target. We'll find out this season whether Thompson made the right choice. I say he blew it. Bowe would have been more valuable and was more needed than Harrell. WR's also have a bigger impact on the game than DT's.

Stop the presses! News Flash!!!

Nope, no news flash, just the same opinion as the over-whelming majority of people who cover football for a living have. With Harrell's injury history in high school and college, even you can't deny the injury history makes this pick a gamble. My point is that you don't go for a home run with the team we have. You take the sure double. You gamble when you already have a good team. That way if you are wrong, it does'nt hurt as much.

run pMc
06-28-2007, 11:09 AM
We had the chance to go after some WRs who were well proven on the college level and had great size in the 2nd round

Not disagreeing...but despite what people say about TT drafting the BPA over need, I think a RB was a bigger need in round 2 than WR. I don't recall any decent (starter-quality) FA RB's available at draft time, so they probably would have been forced to pick a RB in round 3. That might have been OK too...but clearly TT had Jackson (or the RB position as a need) ranked higher.

I think Jones and Jennings are two different kinds of WR's; whether comparing them is fair or not is up to you. I like Ruvell Martin, but I think he's at his ceiling; the staff must think Jones's "upside" is higher. I'm very interested to see how Holliday plays in TC -- for all I know he could be the #3. Time will tell about Jones, Clowney, and the rest of the WR's.

Being a 5th rounder, I'm not expecting much of anything this season from Clowney (if he makes the squad). Best case is probably that he learns the ropes on the practice squad this year, and long-term acts as a speed guy who stretches the defense and lets guys like Jones run the underneath routes.

From what I heard about Bowe, he didn't impress in the OTA's...he showed up late, and dropped some easy balls. I have to admit, pre-draft there were times when I was hoping TT would trade down a few spots and pick him. Then I thought Meachem would be TT's pick...but at this point his conditioning, attitude, and knee situation make him sound like he could be another 1st round WR-bust.

BobDobbs, I agree -- I think it is most appropriate to compare with other WR's picked within that same range...and it will be interesting to see if/how they pan out. WR's take a while to develop in the pros...3 years is usually enough time.

As far as whether Jones gives the team the best value...I'm obviously not qualified to do anything other than throw out my opinion. If Holliday and Jones are the same player, it's a wasted pick unless one of them goes on IR or you have a lot of plays where the WR's are running 6-yard patterns.

The Leaper
06-28-2007, 11:12 AM
Nope, no news flash, just the same opinion as the over-whelming majority of people who cover football for a living have. With Harrell's injury history in high school and college, even you can't deny the injury history makes this pick a gamble. My point is that you don't go for a home run with the team we have. You take the sure double. You gamble when you already have a good team. That way if you are wrong, it does'nt hurt as much.

I'm not sure I can pigeonhole it to that extent. I do think there are instances where a bad team should roll the dice on a potential elite player...what do they really have to lose? I also think a good team can get farther taking a "safe" player in an area of need than taking a flier on "potential" in an area they might be OK at.

A lot depends on the depth of talent in the draft and how it is distributed at each position. A gamble in one draft at a position might make sense...but the same gamble in another draft might not. This year, I think it made sense to gamble on Harrell...because the position was relatively low on talent, and it is clear that Harrell had premium talent when compared to most other DTs healthy.

TopHat
06-28-2007, 12:04 PM
Outstanding posts!

TopHat
06-28-2007, 12:04 PM
These Pack fans' posts are extremely well written with something to say about the ongoing debate, reflected by the experts, fans, and writers, that expresses concerns about "immediate offensive playmakers" for Favre, maybe his last harrah. Surprisely, echoing Favre, even Philbin said their professional development could take years. On the lighter side, check out a really hilarious funny fans' reaction on draft day: Packers Draft Day Freak-Out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekPumyJjdX4

TopHat
06-28-2007, 10:03 PM
http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=61&p=2&c=655141&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fpackers.scout.com%2f2%2f 655141.html

In depth: Wide receivers. PackerReport.com's Todd Korth continues his series on analyzing each position on the Packers. Today, Korth assesses the wide receivers and argues why the Packers should be able to get along just fine without Randy Moss.

Bretsky
06-28-2007, 10:17 PM
These Pack fans' posts are extremely well written with something to say about the ongoing debate, reflected by the experts, fans, and writers, that expresses concerns about "immediate offensive playmakers" for Favre, maybe his last harrah. Surprisely, echoing Favre, even Philbin said their professional development could take years. On the lighter side, check out a really hilarious funny fans' reaction on draft day: Packers Draft Day Freak-Out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekPumyJjdX4



Before any jokes start coming I'd like to point out that this was NOT me :lol:

Bretsky
06-28-2007, 10:23 PM
http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=61&p=2&c=655141&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fpackers.scout.com%2f2%2f 655141.html

In depth: Wide receivers. PackerReport.com's Todd Korth continues his series on analyzing each position on the Packers. Today, Korth assesses the wide receivers and argues why the Packers should be able to get along just fine without Randy Moss.

Dang, $99 to subscribe to an annual; I already blow away some for JS Packer Insider. And with the story saying the Packers WR are just fine......hmmm......seems like the money would be better spent at a bar :lol:

woodbuck27
06-29-2007, 02:29 PM
Obviously this is all speculation, but that is the fun part about this time of year. I have to agree with Wist that Holiday looks to be pretty similar to James Jones. I also don't think that he was saying that a 3rd pick has to be an instant game changer. I think he was questioning whether the pick brought the most value to the team.

If all you do is exchange a strong possesion guy for a very similarly abled/bodied player, then maybe your pick is better spent on say a Tight End(for example) as that is a position that a mid round prospect might bring a huge upgrade to.

I took a look at the 3rd round of the draft and James Jones was picked #78 in the midst of a run on receivers from picks #73-#80 (This includes a Tight End and Return Specialist as receivers). Considering that a Receiver hadn't been pick since Steve Smith R2(51) and wouldn't be picked until Johnnie Lee Higgins R3(99), it looks like many GMs felt that this was the time to take advantage of Receiver depth on with a First Day Pick. They are mostly smaller school guys.

I don't follow College Ball enough to trust my predictions, but I enjoy tracking players who were drafted in a similar position to see if the scouts predictions pan out. What I mean is if the Saints had know what they were getting with Colston then they should have drafted him higher. Since he is an anamoly I give them credit for drafting him, but they got a bit lucky.

If you look at a pick like Nick Barnett with both EJ. Hendersen and Boss Bailey on the board. That looks like a good pick now, but at the time those other guys were more highly rated by some scouts.

Now let's look at that run on Receivers

9(73) Houston Jacoby Jones WR LANE
10(74) Baltimore Yamon Figurs RS KANSAS STATE
11(75) Atlanta Laurent Robinson WR ILLINOIS STATE
12(76) San Francisco Jason Hill WR WASHINGTON STATE
13(77) Pittsburgh Matt Spaeth TE MINNESOTA
14(78) Green Bay James Jones WR SAN JOSE STATE
15(79) Jacksonville Mike Walker WR CENTRAL FLORIDA
17(80) Tennessee Paul Williams WR FRESNO STATE

I think the ones to compare over time are Jones, Walker, and Williams since that's who was left. It's probably worth watching those other guys too since it's pretty easy to jump up a couple spots. I just checked to other two guys bios and they are all roughly the same size, but Paul Williams speed jumps out. He did get the ball knocked away from him quite a bit, too much.

One scouting report compares Mike Walker to Greg Jennings without as much speed. He timed a little faster than James Jones. When I watch Jones on tape he looks exciting, but then I remember his level of competition and measurables. I am excited about him and look forward to preseason.

It will be fun to watch these guys careers play out over the next three years.

Nice insight and analysis in that post BobDobbs !

14(78) Green Bay James Jones WR SAN JOSE STATE

15(79) Jacksonville Mike Walker WR CENTRAL FLORIDA

17(80) Tennessee Paul Williams WR
FRESNO STATE

and I may add that James Jones has a QB and some advantage in 'the fact' he's named Favre. :)

Quarterback Jacksonville

B. Leftwich, #7
D. Garrard, #9
Q. Gray, #5

Quarterback Tennessee

V. Young, #10
K. Collins, #5
T. Rattay

retailguy
06-29-2007, 02:37 PM
One scouting report compares Mike Walker to Greg Jennings without as much speed.


Is that like comparing me to Grady Jackson, without as much "bulk"?....

Where do they get this stuff? :P