Steals/Reaches

[HarveyWallbangers]

According to my draft board:

Biggest Steals:
QB Reggie McNeal, Cincinnati
RB Jerome Harrison, Baltimore
WR Demetrius Williams, Baltimore
TE Leonard Pope, Arizona
OT Eric Winston, Houston
OG Fred Matua, Detroit
OC Greg Eslinger, Denver
DE Mark Anderson, Chicago
DT Rodrique Wright, Miami
OLB Brandon Johnson, Arizona
ILB Abdul Hodge, Green Bay
CB Ashton Youbouty, Buffalo
S Ko Simpson, Buffalo

Biggest Reaches:
QB Tarvaris Jackson, Minnesota*
RB PJ Daniels, Baltimore
WR Willie Reid, Pittsburgh
TE Jason Pociask, NY Jets
OT Rashad Butler, Carolina
OG Willie Colon, Pittsburgh
OC Ryan Cook, Minnesota
DE Frostee Rucker, Cincinnati
DT Domato Peko, Cincinnati
OLB Stephen Tulloch, Tennessee
ILB Anthony Schlegel, NY Jets
CB Tim Jennings, Indianapolis
S Eric Smith, NY Jets

* Jackson beats out Ingle Martin because no boards had Jackson higher than 7th, and he went 5th among QBs. FOX Sports actually had Martin the 8th rated QB, and that's where he went.

[RashanGary]

I could list 25 names in list one and 25 names in list 2 all randomly and it would probably be more accurate than that list.

[RashanGary]

LOL..I just noticed it was from your board...

Point is, its impossible.

[Rastak]

I was pretty bummed about the Cook pick but he's growing on me.
Versitile and really strong. They had to get a backup center and if he's
as good as I've read in a couple places he'll be very good as a backup while polishing his game. Jackson is an interesting project. My understanding is the Vikings assumed he would go somewhere in 3 and they didn't want to miss him after Denver took Cutler. He does have a really strong arm....we'll see how he develops.

[Rastak]

I could list 25 names in list one and 25 names in list 2 all randomly and it would probably be more accurate than that list.

It's just his opinion......looks fairly accurate to me .....in other words, I would share that opinion...

[SkinBasket]

I could list 25 names in list one and 25 names in list 2 all randomly and it would probably be more accurate than that list.

It's just his opinion......looks fairly accurate to me .....in other words, I would share that opinion...

Apparently you haven't been introduced to Nick's "solid notch" system. Or maybe anti-system would be more accurate.

[Deputy Nutz]

I stole your mom's butter last night.

[RashanGary]

I think we generally agree skin...When looking at top 5 picks though it is usually a pretty common thought for the most part...

I got your point the first time you made it....I felt like being arguementative.

[SkinBasket]

Not a problem Collins. Don't forget, I hate the game, not the playa. Wait, sometimes I hate the playa too, but not too often.


Nutz, I want that goddamn butter back. I had to lotion her back with crisco.

[b bulldog]

bUFFALO'S FIRST TWO PICKS WERE TOTAL REACHES WHERE THEY WERE PICKED.

[billy_oliver880]

bUFFALO'S FIRST TWO PICKS WERE TOTAL REACHES WHERE THEY WERE PICKED.

I agree with their first pick. I was watching and I was like...who is that? I didn't even remember that guys name being mentioned anywhere.

[b bulldog]

Witner could have been had about 5-10 picks later.

[Guiness]

According to my draft board:

Biggest Steals:

I don't know that they're steals, but the three guys who slipped for character issues, Wroten, White and J. Williams were risks, but potential payoff.
Max Jean-Gilles could be a steal. Early on, he was the top rated guard on a lot of mocks, but sat on the board until the 4th.



Biggest Reaches:

McCargo to Buffalo
I thought Davin Joseph was a reach where he was taken. I like him, but that was high
Cook

[motife]

based on Scouts Inc.'s top 150 :

based only on players either projected to go in the first 2 rounds, or drafted in the first 2 rounds.

biggest reaches :

rk ….. #.. ….. NFL ….. Name
NR ….. 51 ….. MN ….. Ryan Cook OC
138 ….. 69 ….. Oak ….. Paul McQuistan OT
125 ….. 59 ….. TB ….. Jeremy Trueblood OT
127 ….. 64 ….. MN ….. Tarvaris Jackson QB
122 ….. 62 ….. Ind ….. Tim Jennings CB
107 ….. 61 ….. Den ….. Tony Scheffler TE
96 ….. 54 ….. KC ….. Bernard Pollard S
113 ….. 75 ….. GB ….. Jason Spitz OC
63 ….. 26 ….. Buf ….. John McCargo DT
105 ….. 71 ….. Phi ….. Chris Gocong DE
70 ….. 42 ….. Chi ….. Danieal Manning S
71 ….. 43 ….. NO ….. Roman Harper S
101 ….. 73 ….. Chi ….. Dusty Dvoracek DT
84 ….. 57 ….. Chi ….. Devin Hester RS
72 ….. 47 ….. GB ….. Daryn Colledge OT
68 ….. 46 ….. Stl ….. Joe Klopfenstein TE
44 ….. 23 ….. TB ….. Davin Joseph OG
40 ….. 20 ….. KC ….. Tamba Hali DE
60 ….. 41 ….. AZ ….. Deuce Lutui OG
47 ….. 30 ….. Ind ….. Joseph Addai RB
69 ….. 52 ….. GB ….. Greg Jennings WR
81 ….. 65 ….. Hou ….. Charles Spencer OG
53 ….. 38 ….. Oak ….. Thomas Howard OLB
71 ….. 56 ….. Bal ….. Chris Chester OC
49 ….. 35 ….. Was ….. Rocky McIntosh OLB
54 ….. 40 ….. Det ….. Daniel Bullocks S
73 ….. 60 ….. Jax ….. Maurice Drew RB
20 ….. 8 ….. Buf ….. Donte Whitner S
30 ….. 18 ….. Dal ….. Bobby Carpenter OLB
46 ….. 34 ….. Cle ….. D'Qwell Jackson ILB
26 ….. 15 ….. Stl ….. Tye Hill CB
27 ….. 16 ….. Mia ….. Jason Allen S
87 ….. 76 ….. NYJ ….. Anthony Smith S

[motife]

based on Scouts Inc.'s top 150 :

Biggest Steals :

rk ….. #.. ….. NFL ….. Name
52 ….. 226 ….. Mia ….. Rodrique Wright DT
41 ….. 107 ….. AZ ….. Gabriel Watson DT
45 ….. 111 ….. Bal ….. Demetrius Williams WR
50 ….. 99 ….. Phi ….. Max Jean-Gilles OG
57 ….. 101 ….. Oak ….. Darnell Bing S
61 ….. 105 ….. Buf ….. Ko Simpson S
28 ….. 70 ….. Buf ….. Ashton Youboty CB
39 ….. 72 ….. AZ ….. Leonard Pope TE
58 ….. 90 ….. TB ….. Maurice Stovall WR
38 ….. 66 ….. Hou ….. Eric Winston OT
12 ….. 39 ….. Phi ….. Winston Justice OT
37 ….. 63 ….. Sea ….. Darryl Tapp DE
43 ….. 68 ….. Stl ….. Claude Wroten DT
36 ….. 58 ….. Car ….. Richard Marshall CB
15 ….. 36 ….. NE ….. Chad Jackson WR
64 ….. 85 ….. KC ….. Brodie Croyle QB
18 ….. 37 ….. Atl ….. Jimmy Williams CB
29 ….. 45 ….. Ten ….. LenDale White RB
34 ….. 50 ….. SD ….. Marcus McNeill OT
31 ….. 44 ….. NYG ….. Sinorice Moss WR

[motife]

a few mock drafts at one time had Jimmy Williams going to Green Bay with the 5th pick. Atlanta picked him at 37.

[Murphy37]

Hodge definitly seems like a steal, according to his specs. What are the negatives with this guy? Were there any reported concerns with him? I havn't read anything but positives thus far.

[HarveyWallbangers]

My opinion.

Best drafts:
1 Arizona
2 Cleveland
3 Tampa Bay
4 New England
5 Green Bay
6 St. Louis

Worst drafts:
1 Washington
2 Kansas City
3 Atlanta
4 Cincinnati
5 Pittsburgh
6 Minnesota

[Rastak]

Homer....LOL...Vikings needed CB and LB and got Greenway and Griffin.



Trade with Philly lands a starting gaurd.....but opinions are like assholes, everyone has one....

[HarveyWallbangers]

You can't honestly be happy with that draft. I have an optimistic realist Viking friend, and he's not really happy with this draft.

Griffin is solid, but he was rated more as an early 3rd round value. You gave up both 3rd round picks on a QB that was projected to go on the middle rounds. Cook was a major reach. I think the only good moves the Vikings made was Greenway and trading for Hicks--although Edwards has a chance to contribute if he puts his mind to it.

You are the homer. I think I call them like I see them. I wasn't happy with Thompson's draft last year at the time. You won't ever show any unhappiness with the Vikings and their decisions.
:D

[RashanGary]

Griffin is a great pick IMHO....Vikes got stronger there. WTF happened to smoot and winfield?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Trade with Philly lands a starting gaurd.....but opinions are like assholes, everyone has one....

Hicks could be the starting OG. He mostly sat on the pine for Philadelphia. I don't think anybody considered him more than adequate. I like the trade, but I wouldn't get too giddy about him. There's a reason Philly gave him for next to nothing.

[motife]

Trade with Philly lands a starting gaurd.....but opinions are like assholes, everyone has one....


Greenway is going to be great. Trust me. The guy can pick your pocket while he's tackling you. He has incredibly quick reflexes and great size for a LB.

Didn't the Vikes get a guard earlier in the year? seems to me I remember something about them signing a free agent guard.

[Rastak]

You can't honestly be happy with that draft. I have an optimistic realist Viking friend, and he's not really happy with this draft.

Griffin is solid, but he was rated more as an early 3rd round value. You gave up both 3rd round picks on a QB that was projected to go on the middle rounds. Cook was a major reach. I think the only good moves the Vikings made was Greenway and trading for Hicks--although Edwards has a chance to contribute if he puts his mind to it.

You are the homer. I think I call them like I see them. I wasn't happy with Thompson's draft last year at the time. You won't ever show any unhappiness with the Vikings and their decisions.
:D

Not true at all....I'm an optimist realist. :smile: Greenway was a good pick, and the rest of the guys should stand on their own merit. You pissed and moaned big time when Collins was picked last year, then reconsidered. I'm feeling the same about Cook. Not sure about Jackson, but he sure seems to have the tools. I don't know, maybe you are right based on projected rounds, we'll see....that's what makes it fun.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I like Greenway, but the Vikings came into the draft with two 2nd and two 3rd round picks. I'd be disappointed with the Vikings draft if I were a Vikings fan.

Actually, I wasn't that down on the Collins pick. Maybe right when they selected it, but Rick Gosselin (who I think is as good as there is) had him in the top 50 players. However, overall I was generally disappointed in the Packers draft last year.

Hey, in three years their draft may be judged differently, but I didn't create a draft board for nothing. I thought they reached, and should have come away with a better draft.

What would you give them if you had to grade them now?

Daunte Culpepper for Ryan Cook

Javon Walker for Daryn Colledge, Will Blackmon, Johnny Jolly, and Tyrone Culver

Should be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Guiness]

Much as I'd like to claim a good draft for GB - ours was the type that you just don't know, so it gets a middle rating - C. Might bump it up to C+ because TT managed to get 12 picks.

I really don't like Buffalo's draft because IMO the 2 first round picks sucked. I guess Youboty and Simpson pull their mark up though.

Cincy's was bad because I think they're drafting them right out of GBCI.

Rastak - you're happy with the Vikes draft then? I think they would've been smart to grab another CB somewhere.

[Rastak]

Much as I'd like to claim a good draft for GB - ours was the type that you just don't know, so it gets a middle rating - C. Might bump it up to C+ because TT managed to get 12 picks.

I really don't like Buffalo's draft because IMO the 2 first round picks sucked. I guess Youboty and Simpson pull their mark up though.

Cincy's was bad because I think they're drafting them right out of GBCI.

Rastak - you're happy with the Vikes draft then? I think they would've been smart to grab another CB somewhere.

No I'm fine with CB...thought they might grab WR though....

[Guiness]

Yes, a WR would've been nice with your 4th or 5th round.

As stated, Minn needed a CB, and the QB was pretty much necessary. Assuming they had their heart set on Cook for some reason, you had a mid-round pick left for a WR at best.

[Rastak]

Trade with Philly lands a starting gaurd.....but opinions are like assholes, everyone has one....


Greenway is going to be great. Trust me. The guy can pick your pocket while he's tackling you. He has incredibly quick reflexes and great size for a LB.

Didn't the Vikes get a guard earlier in the year? seems to me I remember something about them signing a free agent guard.

Yea, they signed Jason Whittle and now also traded for Eagles gaurd Artis Hicks during the draft.

[motife]

Trade with Philly lands a starting gaurd.....but opinions are like assholes, everyone has one....


Greenway is going to be great. Trust me. The guy can pick your pocket while he's tackling you. He has incredibly quick reflexes and great size for a LB.

Didn't the Vikes get a guard earlier in the year? seems to me I remember something about them signing a free agent guard.

Yea, they signed Jason Whittle and now also traded for Eagles gaurd Artis Hicks during the draft.

Who was that guy they got from Seattle? (I was being subtle.)

[HarveyWallbangers]

Whittle is just a body. If he's starting, the team is in trouble, IMHO. I think Hicks can be a starter, but probably not a great one. The leftside is awesome. Marcus Johnson has good potential. The last starting spot is a crapshoot, but so is Green Bay's interior OL.

[MadtownPacker]

Actually, I wasn't that down on the Collins pick.

HA! It took a couple of gallons of Kool-aid to calm you down about the pick.

[HarveyWallbangers]

HA! It took a couple of gallons of Kool-aid to calm you down about the pick.

No, that was Bretsky. I was the guy trying to calm everybody down about him after I read Rick Gosselin's take on him. I was one of those to say let's take a wait and see approach on him. Remember I was the guy who made the comparison to Rashean Mathis (another Bethune-Cookman graduate who turned into an excellent corner immediately). Don't try to twist it any differently.

[MadtownPacker]

No, that was Bretsky. I was the guy trying to calm everybody down about him after I read Rick Gosselin's take on him. I was one of those to say let's take a wait and see approach on him. Remember I was the guy who made the comparison to Rashean Mathis (another Bethune-Cookman graduate who turned into an excellent corner immediately). Don't try to twist it any differently.

Man your gonna force me to go look it up on the junkyard JSO. You where not happy the first day but felt better after acouple of CC if Green KoolAid.

[Charles Woodson]

The biggest reach i thought of were, the buffalo first rounders, Donte Whitner, and John Mcargo. Whitner is good, but they coulda traded down and got him, but im not huge on Mcargo

[mngolf19]

Greenway and Griffin are great picks. Jackson I don't know alot about but they needed a QB and the ones they liked earlier were gone so they had to take this guy if they thought he was next on their list. Jaworski actually raved about this guy and Childress is supposed to be a good QB teacher. So we'll see on that one. The other guys filled in depth and potential. Reaches? Maybe. I would say that they have a little more freedom to choose projects than say the Packers do. Whittle was only signed to be a backup at all line positions and Childress stated that. Cook is a backup this year at C and T. My guess is that he will eventually be a T because of his height. Blue was not a bad pick, but some people thought he might as he is being pegged as an LB and he didn't play that in college. On a side note, I thought the Packer's draft was good, not great. Definitely better than the past few years. And I really liked what the Jets did.

[Deputy Nutz]

I heard that Denver was working the phones to try and move ahead of Arizona to get Lienart. Why oh why didn't Buffalo trade down and get a couple of more picks to move down and get Whitner at 15? Bad draft management.

It is called targeting a player regardless of draft position.

[Tarlam!]

I heard that Denver was working the phones to try and move ahead of Arizona to get Lienart.

This was on Broncos.com, I edited for the stuff we care about:

SHANAHAN PRESS CONFERENCE
CONFERENCE CALLS: CUTLER | SCHEFFLER

The Walker deal came together while the Broncos were on the clock with the 37th pick, although the seeds were sown long before.

"We didn't get the deal done until the pick came up, to be quite honest with you," General Manager Ted Sundquist said. "The initial thought process started back around the Combine. We had a number of discussions with Green Bay in regards to what they would be willing or not willing to take with Javon.

"The idea emerged a long time ago but to actually put the thing to fruition heated up about three days ago, and then did not get finished until the pick game up."

WALK-ING TO DENVER: The trade for Walker brought Denver a receiver who already has one stellar season on his résumé.

Prior to suffering a torn anterior cruciate ligament in Week 1 of last season, Walker had steadily progressed throughout his career, going from 23 catches for 319 yards in 2002 to 41 for 716 in 2003 and 89 for 1,382 a year later. He snagged 12 touchdown receptions in his last season, and helped the Packers to playoff appearances in each of his years with the club.

Shanahan expects Walker to be ready by the start of training camp.

"His rehab (right knee) is going well," Shanahan said. "The target is to have him ready once we go to camp. He is still recovering from his ACL, and I don’t want to push him along too quick. He went through all the physicals with our trainers and doctors, and he should be ready to go full-speed by the time we start camp."

The Broncos don't have a signed long-term deal with Walker, but the team and the receiver "are fairly close to a deal, Shanahan said.

"We've got the parameters in agreement," Shanahan said. "It's basically going to be in that six-year time frame."

LELIE STATUS UNCHANGED: The acquisition of Walker has no impact upon the status of wide receiver Ashley Lelie, Shanahan noted.

"I'd say the chances are very good that he will be a part of our organization," Shanahan said. "I can't say 100 percent, I can't foresee the future, but I will be very surprised if he is not a part of our organization."

Shanahan said that he still had "a lot of confidence" in Lelie, but noted that the wideout's best chance to establish a solid spot on the depth chart is to work out with the team in Denver instead of out of state.

"I think it gives him the best chance to compete," Shanahan said. "Ashley is in the last year of his contract. If you want compete with the guys that we have on our football team and you want to get better, it's hard to do that when you are away. But Ashley has done a lot of great things for this organization, and he's made a lot of great plays for us.

"I'd still like him on this football team. I'd like for him to come in here and compete. If he doesn't, I can't do anything about it except with mini camp, but I can't see how that would help him for his future contracts unless he comes in here and really performs at a high level next year."

Lelie has one 1,000-yard season in his four years with the team and is in the final year of the deal he signed just prior to his rookie training camp in 2002.

"Ashley is a class guy," Shanahan said. "Sometimes, people do things which they think is the best benefit for him, but we signed him to a five-year contract, and I'm still looking forward to him making plays for us. Hopefully, he will."

[HarveyWallbangers]

Jackson I don't know alot about but they needed a QB and the ones they liked earlier were gone so they had to take this guy if they thought he was next on their list.

Well, not necessarily. Not if you can get the guy in the 3rd round. Maybe they couldn't. Still seems like a reach. I liked Jackson, but I don't see a lot of difference in the upside of him over Charlie Whitehurst (who I liked better). I think they should have kept their extra 3rd round pick and then drafted whomever was left between Jackson and Whitehurst. If Childress is such a guru, they could have waited until the middle rounds and got Reggie McNeal.


I would say that they have a little more freedom to choose projects than say the Packers do.

Not really. The Packers take as many projects as anybody (Hawkins, Coston, and Campbell last year; Noll and Martin this year). I like taking projects, but not when you trade up and end up with only 6 picks. You are leaving yourself small margin for error. Thompson drafts projects, but has come away with 11 and 12 picks the last two years, so he gives himself a little leeway.

[Deputy Nutz]

NFLDRAFTCOUNTDOWN.COM's Values and Reaches

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/review/valuereach.html

[retailguy]

Actually, I wasn't that down on the Collins pick.

HA! It took a couple of gallons of Kool-aid to calm you down about the pick.


I KNEW I should not have given Mad the key to the kool-aid vault. Hey MAD, careful wit that stuff.... You're gonna hurt him!

[mngolf19]

I would say that they have a little more freedom to choose projects than say the Packers do.

Not really. The Packers take as many projects as anybody (Hawkins, Coston, and Campbell last year; Noll and Martin this year). I like taking projects, but not when you trade up and end up with only 6 picks. You are leaving yourself small margin for error. Thompson drafts projects, but has come away with 11 and 12 picks the last two years, so he gives himself a little leeway.

Harv, I was just looking at this from the perspective of the Packers wanting to do something this year and not having a lot to start with. (supposedly) The Vikes (supposedly) have more in the cupboard so they could afford to develop some guys and still win this year.

[OS PA]

I would say that they have a little more freedom to choose projects than say the Packers do.

Not really. The Packers take as many projects as anybody (Hawkins, Coston, and Campbell last year; Noll and Martin this year). I like taking projects, but not when you trade up and end up with only 6 picks. You are leaving yourself small margin for error. Thompson drafts projects, but has come away with 11 and 12 picks the last two years, so he gives himself a little leeway.

Harv, I was just looking at this from the perspective of the Packers wanting to do something this year and not having a lot to start with. (supposedly) The Vikes (supposedly) have more in the cupboard so they could afford to develop some guys and still win this year.

I think that come the season we'll all realize how few of these picks were actual reaches and projects.

Colledge and Spitz should start
My newly found favorite Jennings is going to be a star
Hawk will start Hodge has potential to start
Rodgers is hidden at WR, but is our new PR
Blackmon is hidden at CB, but is our new KR
Martin is exactly what he was meant to be - our 3rd QB
Johnny Jolly if fixed up will be put into our DT rotation

Out of our 12 picks the only "projects" I see are Toll, Tolefson, and Culver.

Although, with that said, I agree that Thompson has less opportunity to take projects, but I believe that even the projects are looking better than what was in our bare cupboards before.