HR Record vs TD record

[LL2]

This year Bonds will break the HR record and I do not want to see it. I hope ARod (not the Packer one) breaks it soon after Bonds or someone else. Favre will break the TD record within the first month of the season. Now, most think the HR record is the most hallowed record in all of sports. What do you guys think? I sure hope Favre gets national media attention for his record and not just some blurp on page 6 of the USA Today. I think the TD record is a hard one to break and you have to have toughness and durability and greatness to break it. Not just sit on your but half the day and just walk up to home plate and swing a bat.

[cheesner]

This year Bonds will break the HR record and I do not want to see it. I hope ARod (not the Packer one) breaks it soon after Bonds or someone else. Favre will break the TD record within the first month of the season. Now, most think the HR record is the most hallowed record in all of sports. What do you guys think? I sure hope Favre gets national media attention for his record and not just some blurp on page 6 of the USA Today. I think the TD record is a hard one to break and you have to have toughness and durability and greatness to break it. Not just sit on your but half the day and just walk up to home plate and swing a bat.
The thing though is that the HR record is based entirely on personal capabilities. You are going head to head vrs many diffferent pitchers. Your performance does not rely on anyone else's help. Also, baseball is more traditional than football and the stats are more easily comparable to earlier generations of players. It is in my opinion, a more significant record.

The TD record is different. You not only rely on your WRs; but also in your pass blocking; offensive scheme; etc. in order to put up big numbers. Personally, I think Marino was the best of all time. He didn't have a very good supporting cast around him. If you put him on the 49ers of the same era, his numbers would even be more impressive. Joe Montana was a great QB, but I think he gets more credit than he should. He had great receivers and a system that utilized many short quick easy passes.

[b bulldog]

I think both records will fall soon after they are broken this year. Manning will own all the records at the QB position and Arod will own the homerun record if he stays healthy. Brett's most impressive record to me is his contiued games played.

[MJZiggy]

I've heard Favre say that's the one he's most proud of, Bulldog. HR might have once been the greatest record, but they trashed it when the drugged their way into better performances. Maybe there's some of that going on in the NFL, but I highly doubt Brett Favre is on steroids.

[packinpatland]

I've heard Favre say that's the one he's most proud of, Bulldog. HR might have once been the greatest record, but they trashed it when the drugged their way into better performances. Maybe there's some of that going on in the NFL, but I highly doubt Brett Favre is on steroids.

Altho I agree that it's extremely unlikely that Favre has ever used 'enhancing' drugs.............there are alot of us who do think he's a superman! :lol:

[PackerBlues]

The home run record may have been, or may even be, the most "hallowed" record in all of sports, but it lost a lot of meaning with the steroid scandal. It was uglier than it should have been, considering that the government had to get involved to help clean it up. And yet, Barry Bonds is going to break the HR record. I would like to say that I could care less, but I think its a disgrace to the record and to baseball that Bonds is even allowed a shot at the record. There is always going to be a star next to his his name in the record books, pointing out that he was a steroid freak at the time that he was making his run at the record.


That being said, Favre breaking the TD record held by Marino, is huge. Marino, Elway, Montana......they all played until they were damn near 40. So Favre is closing in on their records and beating them after having played a comparable amount of time.
The thing that I am going to enjoy most as Favre breaks these records this year, is listening to all of the "talking heads" that have been screaming for Favre to retire........how moronic do you think they are going to feel with their stupid comments layed bare, as Favre attains all of the records? At least Favre still has the skills and the motivation to keep on competing at a high level. I HATED watching Bruce Smith going after Reggie Whites Sack record. The guy was washed up for a couple of years before he took the record away from Reggie. It was pure hell watching Smith running around looking for a pile with a QB under it, to flop on top of.

As far as Manning coming along behind Favre, to break Favres records......if anyone has a shot at it, its Manning. Its just a shame that Favre cannot get the same support from the Packer organization, that Manning has gotten from the Colts so far. Or for that matter that Brady has gotten from the Patriots. This is a time that the Packer organization should be expending every resource available, and using every option available to them, to help Favre put some distance between himself and guys like Manning. You can argue all you want that its the GB Packers, and not the "Favre Bay Packers", but if its all about winning anyways.............


(heh heh......and if Favre is Superman, that must make Ted Thompson, Lex Luthor.......with a hand full of Kryptonite. :mrgreen: )

[oregonpackfan]

I strongly agree with the posters who believe the inevitable HR record to be established by Bonds is indeed tainted by steroid usuage.

Several months ago, Sports Illustrated had an excellent article documenting the sudden physical changes Bonds underwent in his 30's--increased muscle mass, hat size increased by 1 and 1/2, shoe size increased 3 sizes, acne on this upper back, etc. All those changes strongly indicated steroid usuage.

If and when Favre breaks the TD record, it will probably not generate the same hoopla as the HR record. The home run record in "America's National Pastime" remains the most revered record in American sports whether we like it or not.

Hank Aaron has more character in his pinky finger than Barry Bonds has in all of his steroid-enhanced body, IMO.

[LL2]

I HATED watching Bruce Smith going after Reggie Whites Sack record. The guy was washed up for a couple of years before he took the record away from Reggie. It was pure hell watching Smith running around looking for a pile with a QB under it, to flop on top of.

I couldn't agree more. Smith kept play for no reason other than to get the record. When he got the record I felt like he didn't earn it like Reggie did. :x

[RashanGary]

Didn't Reggie lose a couple years in that failed football league of the 80's?

[KYPack]

Didn't Reggie lose a couple years in that failed football league of the 80's?

Sure did.

After college, White signed with the Memphis Showboats of the USFL, & played for two seasons, while racking up 23.5 sacks, 192 tackles and seven forced fumbles in 36 starts.

Bruce Smith was a hoss & all, but Reggie had a unique blend of speed, natural strength, quickness and ferocity. He has everything going for him including leadership.

Reggie's record would still be intact if he went in the NFL at a young age.

Memphis signed him younger than NFL rules allowed then.

[mraynrand]

I think the massive lack of interest in Bonds breaking the home run record speaks volumes about how tainted the record is by steroids and how disliked Bonds is. I couldn't care less.

But in fairness, I don't care much about Favre breaking the TD record.
Manning breaking the record will depend on how healthy he remains and whether they can keep an offense around him. It's not a certainty.

[4and12to12and4]

I hate to be the devil's advocate here, but, come on guys, I feel sorry for the scrutiny that Bonds has been put under over this steroids issue. First off, everyone knows that especially throughout the 90's just about EVERYONE was on steroids. I mean, even Roger Clemons was (and probably still is) taking them. So, why do we pick on Bonds constantly. Look, even though steroids obviously played a part in his added mass, it doesn't make it easier to swing a bat and make perfect contact with a curveball or 98 mph fastball. If steroids was the reason for him hitting 70 plus homers, and Maguire and Sosa having their incredible season, then why didn't all other players hit 60 to 70 homers also. I know many were hitting 30 and 40 when in the eighties 40 was incredible, but even so, most players were on steroids, and only a handful put up ridiculous numbers. Also, the pitchers were taking them too, so it sort of evens out the playing field.

Look at tape of football players in the 80's compared to now, and it is also ridiculous how huge everyone is in comparison. I assume that most NFL players ARE on steroids today. The size and speed of these guys have ballooned in the last 20 years. So, why is baseball taking so much shit for it. Who's to say Brett isn't on steroids? It is so easy to pass the testing in both sports, anyone who isn't a complete idiot can get away with it.

As far as the argument that in football there are many more variables, the receivers, line, etc., well, much of Bond's success relates to the type of pitching he has to face, and the protection he has batting behind him. He has never had an offensive juggernaut of players batting after him, thus, he almost never sees a strike. Isn't he already over 100 walks again this year? It's ridiculous. He probably sees one good pitch per at bat if he's lucky. Bonds is one of the, if not the greatest offensive baseball player to ever grace a baseball field. Period. Steroids or not. Unfortunately, steroids is a part of ALL proffesional sports, but baseball just gets singled out more than any other. That frustrates me more than the usage itself.

[mraynrand]

I hate to be the devil's advocate here, but, come on guys, I feel sorry for the scrutiny that Bonds has been put under over this steroids issue. First off, everyone knows that especially throughout the 90's just about EVERYONE was on steroids. I mean, even Roger Clemons was (and probably still is) taking them. So, why do we pick on Bonds constantly.

Because we KNOW he used steroids and we KNOW he's an unpleasant fellow.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I mean, even Roger Clemons was (and probably still is) taking them.

You state this like it's fact.

[mraynrand]

I mean, even Roger Clemons was (and probably still is) taking them.

You state this like it's fact.

Roger Clemons lives right next door to me and I know for a fact he doesn't use steroids.

[Bretsky]

I hate to be the devil's advocate here, but, come on guys, I feel sorry for the scrutiny that Bonds has been put under over this steroids issue. First off, everyone knows that especially throughout the 90's just about EVERYONE was on steroids. I mean, even Roger Clemons was (and probably still is) taking them. So, why do we pick on Bonds constantly. Look, even though steroids obviously played a part in his added mass, it doesn't make it easier to swing a bat and make perfect contact with a curveball or 98 mph fastball. If steroids was the reason for him hitting 70 plus homers, and Maguire and Sosa having their incredible season, then why didn't all other players hit 60 to 70 homers also. I know many were hitting 30 and 40 when in the eighties 40 was incredible, but even so, most players were on steroids, and only a handful put up ridiculous numbers. Also, the pitchers were taking them too, so it sort of evens out the playing field.


Giambi gets hammered, McGuire gets hammered, Palmiero gets hammered.....as do plenty of others. And they should.

And your information is faulty; I was listening on ESPN and they had an Roid guru on. Not only will they improve your strength, they can also aide in your hand eye coordination as well. Bonds is a great player...........but

I don't feel an ounce of pity on Bonds if he took steroids. And he did. Let's not assume everybody does this because they flat out don't.

How Bonds achieved this makes Hank Aaron's accomplishments look even better. Bud Selig, who has been very good for the game of baseball, has made his statement by delaying the mere announcement of whether he even plans to be there when the record is broken. I fully believe he will be, but he's made his point.

TAINTED RECORD. It's a farce.

I can't wait til Bonds record is broken because in my mind he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same regard as Hank Aaron.

[Tarlam!]

[Not only will they improve your strength, they can also aide in your hand eye coordination as well.

Now that, is hysterically funny. And unproven. It may be true, but no conclusive study has been submitted and accepted by Academia that supports your "Roid Guru". None. No where.

Hahahahaha.

[RashanGary]

I tend to appreciate Bonds greatness but in my mind I consider him a notch below Mayes (based on numbers) and a good couple notches below Ruth and Aaron.

I think him and A-Rod are the greatest players of the last 20 years even with the roids.

[4and12to12and4]

I mean, even Roger Clemons was (and probably still is) taking them.

You state this like it's fact.

It's as much of a fact as anyone else, other than Giambi, the only guy with the balls to admit it. Other teammates of Clemens have stated to the press that not only was he taking steroids, they were administering them to him. Why would they lie? Plus, the guys 65 years old, come on, I think the evidence is pretty damning against him.

[Bretsky]

I mean, even Roger Clemons was (and probably still is) taking them.

You state this like it's fact.

It's as much of a fact as anyone else, other than Giambi, the only guy with the balls to admit it. Other teammates of Clemens have stated to the press that not only was he taking steroids, they were administering them to him. Why would they lie? Plus, the guys 65 years old, come on, I think the evidence is pretty damning against him.


I should apologize for quoting something as fact based off an ESPN interview and Tarlem noted it was unsupportable bunk. I took a few minutes surfing and pretty much found out Tarlem was correct.

I have no idea about Clemens, but I'd note that he's very well known to be an absolute workout warrior year round and values keeping himself pretty fit

[Patler]

I have no idea about Clemens, but I'd note that he's very well known to be an absolute workout warrior year round and values keeping himself pretty fit

The same can be said for Bonds. He has been conditioning and nutrition conscious since he was in Pittsburgh. He is a very private person, and reporters hate him, so much of it doesn't get reported. About 6 years ago an article reported about how dedicated he is to his sport. His off-season days involve hours of workouts every day, at him in a huge gym, not unlike Clemens.

Some close to Bonds have said that he took steroids for two years only, after what McGwire and Sosa did to the single season homerun record, when everyone overlooked their drug use. They have said that he was 100% clean before then, and since.

Much has been said about Bonds HR totals jumping by about 10/year when he went from Pittsburgh to SF, and detractors argue it is evidence of his steroid use even then. But, it also corresponds to the time he matured physically, as many adults do in their late 20s. He hated Pittsburgh, and in SF he was comfortable and began listening to advice from his father, and godfather, Willie Mays. He matured as a batter, and became a very patient hitter. His BBs increased dramatically and his HR totals began to climb. In short, he swung only at good pitches.

I suspect, as do most, that his 73 HR season was steroid enhanced, but not his career. He is a phenomenal hitter, more disciplined at the plate than almost anyone I can think of. He rarely swings at a bad pitch. If more hitters were this disciplined, their power numbers would go up, too.

[Patler]

I tend to appreciate Bonds greatness but in my mind I consider him a notch below Mayes (based on numbers) and a good couple notches below Ruth and Aaron.


Having watched both, I think Mays was a slightly better player than Aaron. Mays would have broken Ruth's record before Aaron if he had not been drafted into the army. He lost all but 34 games in 1952 and the entire 1953 season to the military. He came back in 1954 and hit 41 HRs. He easily lost 60-70 career homers due to his military service.

I won't even compare the difficulty of hitting HRs for a righthanded hitter in the original configuration Candlestick and the launching pad in Atlanta. One writer doing a biography of Mays read game reports, articles, listened to tapes etc, etc. and estimated that the gale-like winds blowing in from left field everyday before they closed in Candlestick may have cost Mays 5-10 HRs per year. He also noted that for years, Mays hit more HRs on the road than in Candlestick.

Then there was the Polo Gounds in which Mays started his career........

Poor guy never played a home game in a decent park for a righthanded power hitter!

[Patler]

I am a bit of a Willie Mays freak, so just for the heck of it, I looked up his HR totals at Candlestick and away.

While with the Giants in SF, he hit 203 HRs at Candlestick Park.
During that same time period, he hit 256 HRs in their away games.

I think it is pretty clear that playing half his season in Candlestick dramatically decreased his HR total.

Had he played in better home parks for hitters, and not lost essentially two seasons when he was drafted into the Army, Mays may have had the HR record up to nearly 800. Neither Aaron nor Bonds may have been able to catch him.

[Rastak]

I am a bit of a Willie Mays freak, so just for the heck of it, I looked up his HR totals at Candlestick and away.

While with the Giants in SF, he hit 203 HRs at Candlestick Park.
During that same time period, he hit 256 HRs in their away games.

I think it is pretty clear that playing half his season in Candlestick dramatically decreased his HR total.

Had he played in better home parks for hitters, and not lost essentially two seasons when he was drafted into the Army, Mays may have had the HR record up to nearly 800. Neither Aaron nor Bonds may have been able to catch him.


Willie Mays played a few blocks from my house back in the 50's when he was in the minors.....I wasn't alive yet so I missed it! The stadium is long gone but they did have home plate in a "Red Owl" grocery store back in the 70s. I think it's long gone now..... :(

[Scott Campbell]

So, why do we pick on Bonds constantly?

Because nobody likes a cheater - especially a surly one.

[Rastak]

So, why do we pick on Bonds constantly?

Because nobody likes a cheater - especially a surly one.



What he said.

[Scott Campbell]

............. but I highly doubt Brett Favre is on steroids.


Can you imagine his recievers hands if he was on steroids? Would they still even have hands?

[mraynrand]

Arrrgh, I just tried to catch a pass from Favre on Steroids!

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail017.jpg

[MJZiggy]

I was thinking more along the lines of those Pamplona pictures, though I can't bring myself to look at them to copy them here...blech.

[packinpatland]

Arrrgh, I just tried to catch a pass from Favre on Steroids!

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail017.jpg


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Perfect!!!!

[4and12to12and4]

Well, if we're going to judge Bonds due to his cockiness and "surly" behavior, Babe Ruth should have his records completely erased from all the books, he was the cockiest, most obnoxious asshole to ever put on a baseball cap.

I guess I stick up for Bonds because as a teenager, growing up in Wisconsin, I was a Cubs fan and my buddies were Brewers fans and they liked all American League teams (Brewers were in the AL then, of course) and Cubs were in the NL, and we had debates constantly whether Bonds or Griffey Jr. was the better player. I was for the NL Bonds, they were for the AL Griffey. I have called them periodically over the past 15 years rubbing it in their face that I was right and they were wrong, and in the past five years, they have pulled this steroid issue out of their asses to claim Griffey was better (as if they KNOW he never took steroids). Anyways, so my love and defense for Bonds has generated from my earlier days. So, regardless of the steroids, I love the guy, and am amazed at his ability to only swing at strikes, and put up the numbers he puts up when noone pitches to him. I will alwasy defend him, and I could care less if he's a prick to the press. They have historically hounded him. If I were a professional athlete, I'd probably be like Tuna, Cowboys coach and just treat them all like leaches because that's all they are. I'm glad he speaks his mind and tells them to go to hell. The media are all a bunch of pricks who will turn on an athlete in a new york minute if it will help their story. Go Barry, I just hope he doesn't get his homers this week when they play against my Cubbies.

[RashanGary]

Thanks for the info on Mays Patler. This is just another example of how numbers can be easily misread.

All people see is the # posted, rarely are the numbers anylized in the appropriate context. That's why Bonds hitting these HR's doesn't bother me. I simply knock him down to where I think he belongs. The # just isn't important to me.

Sounds like you have a good feel for the Mays/Aaron era and feel Mays was the better player despite the numbers. History will never do it justice but for those who watched and those who understand, Mays might be the man of his era.

[HarveyWallbangers]

For what it's worth. More than half the league's players were polled, and the winner for most disliked player was Barry Bonds. He had around 1/4 of the vote. Ironically, Jeff Kent was second with just under 20%. That must have been a great clubhouse atmosphere in San Fran.

[4and12to12and4]

So what, once again, I'm sure most of Babe Ruth's teammates couldn't stand him either, it hasn't changed his image as the greatest baseball icon of all time.

[Scott Campbell]

Well, if we're going to judge Bonds due to his cockiness and "surly" behavior, Babe Ruth should have his records completely erased from all the books, he was the cockiest, most obnoxious asshole to ever put on a baseball cap.


I'm no historian, but from every account I've ever read, Ty Cobb was far worse.

[MadtownPacker]

As a Giants fan in Cali I have to say that the HR record brings lil joy to a so far lousy season. I think Bonds would have had a shot at it without the juice. But what is done is done and count me as one of the many that have lost hope for "America's past time". Partly due to Bonds but mostly due to the fact baseball is too slow a game and too long a season.

[Rastak]

Well, if we're going to judge Bonds due to his cockiness and "surly" behavior, Babe Ruth should have his records completely erased from all the books, he was the cockiest, most obnoxious asshole to ever put on a baseball cap.



No, that would be Ty Cobb.

[woodbuck27]

Arrrgh, I just tried to catch a pass from Favre on Steroids!

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail017.jpg


:D :D :D :D :D :D

That's too funny !!!!

I had Hammerin' Hank as my hero from 1957 till he retired. I saw 90% of his HR's at least in print. He has a record (still . . .I believe of most total bases ) that is as or more impressive than his HR record.

Aaron had all five talents of a superior ballplayer.

Power,hit for average,speed,arm and defense as a right fielder. He and Roberto Clemente were the best RFer's in their era.

Barry Bonds may be tainted by the steroids scandal, no less he is an amazing outfielder.

Barry Bonds is the only member of the 500 - 500 club. 500 HR's and 500 stolen bases. He has won 8 Golden Gloves compared to 3 for Hank Aaron but in Aaron's era there were better more talented outfielder's of great fame. Willie Mays, Curt Flood, Stan Musial and Clemente in the NL are just a few that come to mind.

Bary Bonds is definitely one of the finest ball players of this era.He is more flamboyant and moody than the quiet down to business Aaron.

Aaron was feared as a hitter and respected alot as a man and person overall and will always be one of the very best thjat came fer. a career in PRO ball.His work for under privaleged youth since he retired is exemplary.

I also believe that the starting pitching was arguably better back in Aaron's era.

How do we compare payers of different era's.

That's difficult.

The baseball HR record will be held in much higher esteem than the NFL TD record.

Brett Favre will always be best remembered for his current consecutive starts streak.That is utterly amazing for a NFL QB.