Mike Vick Indicted

[retailguy]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940065

Falcons' Vick indicted by grand jury in dogfighting probe

ESPN.com news services

Updated: July 17, 2007, 6:15 PM ET

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Michael Vick has been indicted by a federal grand jury in connection with the dogfighting probe of his property in Virginia.

Vick indictment

Len Pasquarelli talks about the ramifications of Michael Vick's indictment in an alleged dogfighting ring. Listen Insider
• Vote: Are you surprised?

The indictment alleges that Vick and his co-defendants began sponsoring dogfighting in early 2001, the former Virginia Tech star's rookie year with the Falcons.

The Falcons quarterback was indicted for conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District in Richmond, Va. Three others -- Purnell Peace, Quanis Phillips and Tony Taylor -- also were indicted by the grand jury on the same charges.

According to a press release: "If convicted on the Travel Act portion of the conspiracy charge, each defendant faces a statutory maximum of five years in prison, a $250,000 fine, and full restitution. If convicted on the animal fighting venture portion of the conspiracy charge, each defendant faces one year in prison, a $100,000 fine, or both. The indictment also includes a forfeiture allegation seeking recovery of any property constituting, or derived from, proceeds obtained directly or indirectly as a result of these offenses."

A Telephone messages left at the offices and home of Vick's attorney, Larry Woodward, were not immediately returned.

A woman who answered the phone at the home of Vick's mother said the family knew nothing about the charges.

On July 7, federal authorities conducted a second search of the Surry, Va., property owned by Vick that is the center of the dogfighting investigation.

According to court documents filed by federal authorities earlier this month, dogfights have been sponsored by "Bad Newz Kennels" at the property since at least 2002. For the events, participants and dogs traveled from South Carolina, North Carolina, Maryland, New York, Texas and other states.

Fifty-four pit bulls were recovered from the property during searches in April, along with a "rape stand," used to hold dogs in place for mating; an electric treadmill modified for dogs; and a bloodied piece of carpeting, the documents said.

During a June search of the property, investigators uncovered the graves of seven pit bulls that were killed by members of ``Bad Newz Kennels'' following sessions to test whether the dogs would be good fighters, the documents alleged.

Members of "Bad Newz Kennels" also sponsored and exhibited fights in other parts of Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Maryland, New Jersey and other states, according to the filings.

On Vick's Web site, he lists his birthplace as Newport News, "a.k.a. BadNews."

The documents said the fights usually occurred late at night or in the early morning and would last several hours.

Before fights, participating dogs of the same sex would be weighed and bathed, according to the filings. Opposing dogs would be washed to remove any poison or narcotic placed on the dog's coat that could affect the other dog's performance.

Sometimes, dogs weren't fed to "make it more hungry for the other dog."

Fights would end when one dog died or with the surrender of the losing dog, which was sometimes put to death by drowning, strangulation, hanging, gun shot, electrocution or some other method, according to the documents.

Vick initially said he had no idea the property might have been used in a criminal enterprise and blamed family members for taking advantage of his generosity.

Vick has since declined to talk about the investigation.

ESPN reporter Kelly Naqi and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[packinpatland]

Wow, I'd say his goose is cooked.

[Packnut]

They oughta put him in a cage with a lion and let him see what it feels like to be torn into pieces. THAT would be my idea of justice!

[Joemailman]

Really nice situation for Atlanta's new coach to be walking in to. Assuming Vick is done, Joey Harrington is now the starter. Does the indictment mean an automatic suspension, or could Vick play in the meantime?

[MJZiggy]

Culpepper's available it seems...

[woodbuck27]

Culpepper's available it seems...

Brett Favre to Atlanta. . . soon :)

[MJZiggy]

He's under contract...

[packinpatland]

Culpepper's available it seems...

Brett Favre to Atlanta. . . soon :)

WHAT?????

[Kiwon]

It's an 18-page indictment. Obviously, someone talked and connected all the dots for investigators. Either that, or they were extraordinarily sloppy.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick1.html

It's looks like it took the Feds to get it right. The local officials weren't going to do anything. Unfortunately, race has already been suggested as an element in the investigation.

Expect to see Sharpton, Jackson and company get involved along with comments from sympathetic NFL players that believe that racism is pervasive in any and every circumstance.

[MJZiggy]

I think the carcasses of a bunch of dogs and all the rest of the evidence is gonna kinda negate the race card on this one. You can only blame so much on ignorance, but there were buildings built on his property for this purpose.

[woodbuck27]

He's under contract...

a trade. . .

[esoxx]

I'm sure Atlanta's real glad they traded Matt Schaub now.

Vick is a POS.

[retailguy]

He's under contract...

a trade. . .

for draft choices ONLY, no players. :wink:

[packinpatland]

He's under contract...

a trade. . .

Off with your head!!!!

[oregonpackfan]

These are the Dog Days of Summer for Michael!

Vick may lose some endorsements as well. A number of Oregonians are encouraging Nike to drop Vick from being a paid endorser of Nike products.

[red]

some of the things they did were just flat sick and wrong

electrocuting a dog that lost, shooting others. drownding ones that couldn't fight

the feds seem to have names and times and everything thats happened

vick might be screwed

[GrnBay007]

Luckily the Feds got involved. The way it sounds if they hadn't this thing may have just been brushed under the rug.

[Bretsky]

some of the things they did were just flat sick and wrong

electrocuting a dog that lost, shooting others. drownding ones that couldn't fight

the feds seem to have names and times and everything thats happened

vick might be screwed


My tone has not changed; Michael Vick is a thug. He undoubtedly knew what was going on and the strong odds are he was a part of the problem.
I'd love to see him permanantly banned from the NFL and sit his ass in jail for several years.

[GBRulz]

My tone has not changed; Michael Vick is a thug. He undoubtedly knew what was going on and the strong odds are he was a part of the problem.
I'd love to see him permanantly banned from the NFL and sit his ass in jail for several years.

My thoughts exactly. This POS should never be allowed to play again.

[Rastak]

They oughta put him in a cage with a lion and let him see what it feels like to be torn into pieces. THAT would be my idea of justice!

A fine idea.....what a prick he is.....

[Rastak]

some of the things they did were just flat sick and wrong

electrocuting a dog that lost, shooting others. drownding ones that couldn't fight

the feds seem to have names and times and everything thats happened

vick might be screwed


I hope he does hard time and his arse is a regular visiting place for the lifers.....

[BallHawk]

Let's hope "Ookie" gets what he deserves.

[GrnBay007]

I hope he does hard time and his arse is a regular visiting place for the lifers.....

Do u really want the lifers to get Herpes? :shock:

Ron Mexico meet Bubba...........Bubba, here's Ronny

[MJZiggy]

some of the things they did were just flat sick and wrong

electrocuting a dog that lost, shooting others. drownding ones that couldn't fight

the feds seem to have names and times and everything thats happened

vick might be screwed


I hope he does hard time and his arse is a regular visiting place for the lifers.....

Sadly, he'll probably get all sorts of extra protection in a powder puff prison which is ironic for a professional football player. What a slimeball.

[Kiwon]

He undoubtedly knew what was going on and the strong odds are he was a part of the problem.

Read the indictment. The allegations are that he and his pals set up Bad Newz Kennels in 2001. His nickname was "Ookie" and they bought puppies and trained them to fight. When the dogs became expendable they experimented in different ways to kill them. Some dogs were hung and some were drowned and at least one was electrocuted.

I cannot help but draw comparisons to the brutality with which the Chinese government has treated the followers of the Falun Gong movement. I was looking at this website last night. http://www.faluninfo.net/torturemethods2/

Apparently Vick would have made for a good Chinese policeman or prison official.

[Rastak]

http://www.profootballtalk.com/bewareofvick.jpg

[Kiwon]

Very appropriate, Rastak.

[Little Whiskey]

its a tough situation for the NFL. vick was indicted not charged and has not been found guilty. I'm not carrying water for him, but if the nfl acts too quickly = bad.....they wait too long = bad. its a no win

[Rastak]

its a tough situation for the NFL. vick was indicted not charged and has not been found guilty. I'm not carrying water for him, but if the nfl acts too quickly = bad.....they wait too long = bad. its a no win

Yea, they gotta walk a fine line.....even the biggest moron can clearly see Mr Scumbag is guilty as hell but if they jump the gun and 12 shit for brains jurors aquit him for god knows what reason the NFL comes off as an idiot themselves.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think he's gonna get drubbed out of the league, in time. Cruelty to animals is an unrecoverable public relations nightmare.

[digitaldean]

You should see how the Falcons' fans are reacting. It's the proverbial :shtf:

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/town-talk/entries/2007/07/17/whats_next_in_t.html?cxntlid=inform

After Vick's little water bottle stunt at the airport and flipping the bird to ATL fans they've had it. (not to mention the "adventures of Ron Mexico")

I think Arthur Blank can't stop wiping off the egg on his face after supporting this clown.

Goodell has suspended Pacman for a whole season without a conviction and Tank Johnson for violating a parole agreement. Somehow, Goodell could be pressured into acting harshly with Vick.

Now Bobby Petrino walks into: Justin Babineaux charged with felony animal cruelty when his pit bull died of "blunt force trauma to the head". Then catering to Vick ends up blowing up in his face with this indictment.

What is with these idiots?? Sheer greed and narcissism.

[Joemailman]

According to the story, the name of the Dog Fighting Operation is Bad Newz Kennels. On Vick's website he lists his place of birth as Newport News aka Bad News. He must be even dumber than I thought.

I suspect the league will probably wait to see if Atlanta releases Vick. If that happens, a suspension wouldn't be necessary.

[digitaldean]

If there is an shred of a chance, ATL could cut Vick if this violates the personal conduct clause. (I think amt. and severity of the animal cruelty would easily do it, if proven in court).

[MJZiggy]

According to the story, the name of the Dog Fighting Operation is Bad Newz Kennels. On Vick's website he lists his place of birth as Newport News aka Bad News. He must be even dumber than I thought.

I suspect the league will probably wait to see if Atlanta releases Vick. If that happens, a suspension wouldn't be necessary.

They will suspend anyway on the off chance that the Bengals find themselves needing a QB.

[Scott Campbell]

If convicted on the Travel Act portion of the conspiracy charge, each defendant faces a statutory maximum of five years in prison, a $250,000 fine, and full restitution.



I don't get it. What does "full restitution" mean?

[Rastak]

If convicted on the Travel Act portion of the conspiracy charge, each defendant faces a statutory maximum of five years in prison, a $250,000 fine, and full restitution.



I don't get it. What does "full restitution" mean?


He has to raise all the dogs back from the dead or he can't leave prison?

[Iron Mike]

http://www.kissingsuzykolber.net/

[cpk1994]

You should see how the Falcons' fans are reacting. It's the proverbial :shtf:

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/town-talk/entries/2007/07/17/whats_next_in_t.html?cxntlid=inform

After Vick's little water bottle stunt at the airport and flipping the bird to ATL fans they've had it. (not to mention the "adventures of Ron Mexico")

I think Arthur Blank can't stop wiping off the egg on his face after supporting this clown.

Goodell has suspended Pacman for a whole season without a conviction and Tank Johnson for violating a parole agreement. Somehow, Goodell could be pressured into acting harshly with Vick.

Now Bobby Petrino walks into: Justin Babineaux charged with felony animal cruelty when his pit bull died of "blunt force trauma to the head". Then catering to Vick ends up blowing up in his face with this indictment.

What is with these idiots?? Sheer greed and narcissism.

THere is a big difference btween the case of Vick & the cases of JOhnson & Jones. Johnson and Jones are repeat offenders while Vick is considered a first time offender. Goodell only acted on Jones and Johnson AFTER they had repeated brushes with the law in a short period of time. Vick has only this indictment so the NFL will allow due process before making a decison on Vick.

[Guiness]

what he (cpk) said.

First time offender, the NFL has to wait. Wouldn't matter if the charge was murder...

[packinpatland]

what he (cpk) said.

First time offender, the NFL has to wait. Wouldn't matter if the charge was murder...

First time offender

There's something about that term that is bothersome. The many page indictment shows this had been going on awhile. This may be the first time he got caught. He's not a first time offender. It's apparent he's been involved in this offensive activity for a long time.

[Merlin]

Even though Vick deserves this because the guy thinks the rules don't apply to him, we all know our justice system is all about how much you can afford. Vick has deep pockets. I Don't see this going anywhere but a slap on the wrist.

[GrnBay007]

Although Vick is technically a first-time offender, there will be tremendous pressure on NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell to suspend Vick for two games before there is a resolution to his court case. Goodell probably feels justified in suspending Vick because the player told him that he was never involved in dog fighting.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7033162

[packinpatland]

Although Vick is technically a first-time offender, there will be tremendous pressure on NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell to suspend Vick for two games before there is a resolution to his court case. Goodell probably feels justified in suspending Vick because the player told him that he was never involved in dog fighting.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7033162


Did you read the last paragraph in this ^ article?!

Outside of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, there isn't a bigger name in the NFL than Michael Vick. This indictment, regardless of the outcome, has put a black eye on the popular Vick — and the NFL — in the process.


I was agreeing with the guy was saying until that.^ :evil:

[Joemailman]

One thing to keep in mind is that salary cap issues could make it very difficult for Atlanta to release Vick even if the wanted to. In December of 2004, Vick signed a 130 million dollar extension which included 37 million in guaranteed money. I don't know how much of that 37 million is yet to be prorated, but it must be substantial.

In addition, as of February 12, 2007, Atlanta was believed to be only 3.8 million under the salary cap. Thewrefore, it would appear that they can't take a huge salary cap hit without making serious cuts in their roster.

[Rastak]

One thing to keep in mind is that salary cap issues could make it very difficult for Atlanta to release Vick even if the wanted to. In December of 2004, Vick signed a 130 million dollar extension which included 37 million in guaranteed money. I don't know how much of that 37 million is yet to be prorated, but it must be substantial.

In addition, as of February 12, 2007, Atlanta was believed to be only 3.8 million under the salary cap. Thewrefore, it would appear that they can't take a huge salary cap hit without making serious cuts in their roster.


I read somewhere that it would be painful but they could do it.

[Rastak]

From ESPN:

A grand jury indicted Atlanta Falcons' quarterback Michael Vick on Tuesday, which at least partially answers one question that has lingered since the news first broke about an alleged dogfighting operation on property owned by Vick in Virginia: Was Vick involved? Obviously, we know now that investigators believe he was.


There are plenty of football-related issues still to be resolved about Vick's future with the Falcons and the NFL, but those might be the least of his concerns right now. Questions about his legal future abound at the moment. Here are some answers.

What do these federal charges mean for Michael Vick?

Vick is in real trouble. He is up against the might and majesty of the U.S. government with all of its agents, all of its investigative techniques, and all of its skilled prosecutors. If he has any doubts about the power and skill of the forces arrayed against him, he can call Scooter Libby, former chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, or he can call Lord Conrad Black, the disgraced media mogul now facing time in a federal penitentiary. If he still isn't convinced, he can call Jeff Skilling, the zillionaire Enron CEO who is now residing in a federal pen. All three of them hired brilliant (and expensive) lawyers. All three thought they could explain their way out from under federal charges. And all three were convicted. Vick can, and probably will, hire some of America's best defense lawyers, but they will face a serious battle.

Would Vick be sent to jail if he is convicted?

Yes. It's hard to imagine any other outcome. The charges are serious, and the evidence against Vick presented at trial will be nasty. The government's case includes evidence that Vick and his cohorts "tested" pit bulls for ferocity. If the dogs failed the test, the indictment charges, they were executed by hanging or drowning. In one case, with Vick present, the indictment says a dog was slammed to the ground until it was dead. In another incident, a dog was soaked with a hose and then electrocuted. Those aren't the sort of transgressions that lead to probation and community service. It's the kind of behavior that results in punishment, and the punishment will be jail time.

What is the next step for Vick?

Vick will now watch to see which of his three co-defendants will be the first to make a deal with federal prosecutors. Each of them will think seriously about turning on Vick and offering testimony against him in return for less time in jail. Vick obviously is the prime target of the government effort. Prosecutors and agents will be willing to talk with his co-defendants about a deal if they are willing to help prove the case against Vick. The government indictment discloses four witnesses who have already agreed to testify against him. If all three of his co-defendants join these four witnesses against Vick, he and his lawyers might suggest that he, too, should talk to the government about a deal that would minimize his time in jail.

Vick is charged with "conspiracy" and violations of the "Travel Act." What does that mean?

The conspiracy charge will make things extra difficult for Vick and his lawyers. Under federal laws, the conspiracy charge allows federal prosecutors to link Vick to things that occurred even if he was not present. If the prosecutors can connect the four defendants, then crimes committed by one of them can be used to add to the evidence against the others. It's a tricky legal procedure that prosecutors love and defense lawyers detest. The Travel Act is a device invented by Robert F. Kennedy when he was Attorney General in the early '60s. It was designed for use against organized crime and made it easier to prove cases against hoodlums. In the sports world, it was used most recently in the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics bribery scandal. Federal prosecutors charged the Utah organizers under the Travel Act and proved millions of dollars in bribes. Vick, however, can take some hope from the fact that U.S. District Judge David Sam found the organizers not guilty of violating the Travel Act, even though there was powerful evidence of bribery.

What was Vick's role in the dogfighting conspiracy described in the indictment?

According to the indictment, Vick was in the middle of everything from beginning to end. He purchased a vacant piece of property for $34,000, the indictment says. He then had sheds built for training dogs and staging fights and a fence erected to shield the operation from view. And finally, the indictment says, he had a two-story frame house with a basketball court put up as a residence for the people taking care of the dogs. If you believe the indictment, the Vick property had everything anyone could want in a dogfighting operation.

When would Vick's trial begin?

The federal courthouse in Richmond, Va., is the home of the nationally recognized "rocket docket." Cases move quickly in Richmond, more quickly than in any other courthouse in the federal system. Vick's lawyers will be looking for delays and for time to prepare a defense, but the trial likely would begin in a matter of four to six months.

Are the federal authorities in Richmond tough on crime?

Ask Ralph Sampson, the former NBA star. He fell behind in child support payments to seven children that he had with four women, the kind of thing that is ordinarily worked out in a settlement. But instead of a settlement, Sampson found himself charged with felonies in federal court. And then, very quickly, he found himself in jail for two months on a child support charge. Yes, they're tough on crime in Richmond, and they might be particularly tough on crimes involving the torture and killing of dogs.

ESPN.com's Lester Munson is a Chicago lawyer and journalist who has been reporting on investigative and legal issues in the sports industry for 18 years.

[Scott Campbell]

Vick's lawyers will be looking for delays and for time to prepare a defense, but the trial likely would begin in a matter of four to six months.


Smack dab in the middle of the season.

[Scott Campbell]

Vick scheduled to make first court appearance on July 26

By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com
(Archive)

Updated: July 18, 2007, 5:59 PM ET

ATLANTA -- If the goal of Atlanta Falcons management was to keep Michael Vick's legal entanglements from interrupting matters on the field and limiting distractions as they relate to football matters, they have already failed.

According to a summons issued Wednesday, the Falcons' quarterback is scheduled to make his first court appearance after being indicted by a federal grand jury on July 26. Vick faces multiple charges related to an alleged dogfighting ring at a home he owned in Virginia. July 26 is the same day the Falcons are scheduled for the initial on-field practice under first-year coach Bobby Petrino.

So instead of being in the huddle for the first training camp practice of what many NFL observers contend is the most crucial season of his career, Vick will be in a Richmond, Va., courtroom.

The quarterback is to appear for a 3:30 p.m. bond hearing in front of U.S. Magistrate Judge Dennis Dohnal. That will be followed by a 4 p.m. arraignment before U.S. District Judge Henry Hudson, who would likely be the presiding judge if Vick goes to trial.

HSUS starts campaign
against Vick
On Wednesday, officials from the Humane Society of United States and PETA called for the immediate suspension of Michael Vick. The HSUS launched an e-mail campaign to the NFL on its Web site.

"The NFL has had 24 hours to digest this, and I guess they're still digesting it," John Goodwin, deputy manager of the HSUS' animal cruelty campaign, said. "But in our view, what needs to be done is crystal clear.

"... This is not a situation where they can treat him with kid gloves," Goodwin said. "This guy is supposed to be a role model, and he's doing things like [allegedly] slamming dogs to the ground, hanging dogs, fighting dogs. The NFL says it has a higher standard. They need to prove that."
The Falcons are scheduled to practice at 3 p.m.

While the timing of Vick's court appearance on a federal indictment filed Tuesday is certainly inconvenient from a football standpoint, it is still better than some of his advisors thought it might be. There was some feeling in the Vick camp that he might have to appear within a day or two of the indictment being filed.

The court proceedings are expected to be brief. Bond will likely be set, and Vick will pay it and then be released. The expectation is that he will rejoin his teammates for the Friday practice, which is scheduled for 8:30 a.m.

That is assuming, of course, that neither the league nor the Falcons impose any sanctions against Vick before training camp begins. Falcons owner Arthur Blank arrived back here early Wednesday morning after a trip to Africa and was to spend much of the day reviewing Vick's situation. Sources close to the situation said there has already been dialogue between Falcons' officials and the league office.

Len Pasquarelli is a senior NFL writer for ESPN.com.

[MadtownPacker]

The idiot better get to snitching on all his homies before they drop the dime on his ass first.

[Tarlam!]

Anybody that does this type of shit should fry.

The thing that makes America so damned compelling for the rest of us is your "innocent until proven guilty" ethic.

I bet, he is guilty, too. But, I haven't heard the case yet. So, I appeal to all PRs to await the outcome of the trial.

Until he is found guilty, we need to give Vick the benefit of the doubt. As a society, we owe it to him.

I am not defending Vick. I am praising the Constitution of The United States of America.

[RashanGary]

Tarlam, the federal prosecutors are big time people already. They have a reputation to uphold and bringing in cases without evidence is considered amatuer and frowned upon. These guys are the best of the best of the best in our country and if they are going to bring someone in, they are going to do it with enough evidence to get a conviction. This is according to a lawyer on the Rome show anyway.


Vick doesn't stand much of a chance and the court of public opinion might as well start considering him guilty because the prosecutures never would have brought him in unless they could prove he was.

[falco]

Vick doesn't stand much of a chance and the court of public opinion might as well start considering him guilty because the prosecutures never would have brought him in unless they could prove he was.

So by your logic, the federal prosecutors have never lost a case? :roll:

[Rastak]

Vick doesn't stand much of a chance and the court of public opinion might as well start considering him guilty because the prosecutures never would have brought him in unless they could prove he was.

So by your logic, the federal prosecutors have never lost a case? :roll:


They have a 95% conviction rate. They usually won't bring a case forward unless they are sure and have all ducks in a row. Unlike some local proesecutors (like that idiot during the Duke Lacrosse fiasco) they don't build a case on hunches. He may be not guilty but if I were a betting man, I'd say this scumbag was up to his ears in this cruel bullshit. Just looking at only the publicly available evidence it's pretty convincing. I can only imagine the feds put together alot more than that.

[Harlan Huckleby]

"innocent until proven guilty" is for the courts, not for personal opinions.

OJ did it, and he was proven innocent.

I don't think cruelty to animals offenses should carry long prison sentences. Six months sounds right. If we treat animals like humans, than we really all ought to go to prison for not being vegetarians. And isn't fishing cruel, getting dragged along by a hook in your mouth sounds like torture to me.

[packers11]

The idiot better get to snitching on all his homies before they drop the dime on his ass first.

Not if they confess and take all the blame for him... Then he could end up paying them for taking the jail time when they get out...

^ I hope to god that DOES NOT HAPPEN...

[Merlin]

I wouldn't be surprised a bit if everyone involved developed amnesia or started dying in "accidents".

[Rastak]

I wouldn't be surprised a bit if everyone involved developed amnesia or started dying in "accidents".


So Vick compounds it by going Rae Carruth? Nah.....

[Carolina_Packer]

How about as punishment we find a pack of ravenous dogs and put Vick in a cage with them and tie some raw stakes to his body? Seems fitting.

I think even if he is found not guilty, he will still suffer in the court of public opinion, and he will never be the same. Fair or not, that's how it typically works.

I think Arthur Blank should sit him out for the season with pay until this whole thing can be resolved. This is not throwing Vick under the bus or saying you think he's guilty. If he's convicted, he's done anyway. If he's found not guilty, then at least he has been away from the club and hasn't been a direct distraction to the team week after week. I see no way they can let Vick take the field and participate with the team under the circumstances, even though he's only been indicted. It's going to be too big of a distraction for many reasons.

[Freak Out]

Read the indictments for "Ookie" and his friends, pretty sick shit. People have been raising dogs to fight for a very long time but most do not treat their animals anything like this and I was surprised they found so many dead dogs on the property. Vick is done. Goodell is going to have to do something soon. The Feds did their homework on this one and the odds of him getting off are pretty slim. But you never know...anything can happen in court.

[Bretsky]

Read the indictments for "Ookie" and his friends, pretty sick shit. People have been raising dogs to fight for a very long time but most do not treat their animals anything like this and I was surprised they found so many dead dogs on the property. Vick is done. Goodell is going to have to do something soon. The Feds did their homework on this one and the odds of him getting off are pretty slim. But you never know...anything can happen in court.


It will be interesting to see what Goodell does; I don't think he wants anything to do with this until Vick is found guilty, but who knows.

[BEARMAN]

Vick is a thug, once a thug, always a thug. :roll:

[RashanGary]

Vick is a thug, once a thug, always a thug. :roll:

A bears fan, a vikings fan and a bunch of Packer fans all in agreement. . .

[GrnBay007]

Read the indictments for "Ookie" and his friends, pretty sick shit. People have been raising dogs to fight for a very long time but most do not treat their animals anything like this and I was surprised they found so many dead dogs on the property. Vick is done. Goodell is going to have to do something soon. The Feds did their homework on this one and the odds of him getting off are pretty slim. But you never know...anything can happen in court.


It will be interesting to see what Goodell does; I don't think he wants anything to do with this until Vick is found guilty, but who knows.

Keep in mind he hasn't been charged with anything yet. He's being indicted to determine if there is enough evidence to charge him. I would think if they find enough evidence to charge him (which I would be surprised if they don't), his goose is cooked. Federal charges always seem to bring much tougher sentences than State. I would think Goodwell will at least wait to see what they decide on charges before he does anything. At that point his suspension from the NFL will probably be the least of his concerns.

[Freak Out]

Read the indictments for "Ookie" and his friends, pretty sick shit. People have been raising dogs to fight for a very long time but most do not treat their animals anything like this and I was surprised they found so many dead dogs on the property. Vick is done. Goodell is going to have to do something soon. The Feds did their homework on this one and the odds of him getting off are pretty slim. But you never know...anything can happen in court.


It will be interesting to see what Goodell does; I don't think he wants anything to do with this until Vick is found guilty, but who knows.

Keep in mind he hasn't been charged with anything yet. He's being indicted to determine if there is enough evidence to charge him. I would think if they find enough evidence to charge him (which I would be surprised if they don't), his goose is cooked. Federal charges always seem to bring much tougher sentences than State. I would think Goodwell will at least wait to see what they decide on charges before he does anything. At that point his suspension from the NFL will probably be the least of his concerns.

He has been charged. The grand jury found enough evidence to send it to court.

[Scott Campbell]

Until he is found guilty, we need to give Vick the benefit of the doubt. As a society, we owe it to him.


Hey Perry Mason, this ain't a courtroom. I don't appreciate you telling me what we "owe" Mike Vick. Speak for yourself.



I am not defending Vick. I am praising the Constitution of The United States of America.


The Constitution of the United States does not govern the court of public opinion. Read it again if you don't believe me.

My Consitution provides freedom of speech, and I will exersize that freedom to tell you this. I think the only thing I "owe" Mike Vick is a round of applause when he gets a more intimate taste of his rape stand while he's in jail.

[GrnBay007]

Read the indictments for "Ookie" and his friends, pretty sick shit. People have been raising dogs to fight for a very long time but most do not treat their animals anything like this and I was surprised they found so many dead dogs on the property. Vick is done. Goodell is going to have to do something soon. The Feds did their homework on this one and the odds of him getting off are pretty slim. But you never know...anything can happen in court.


It will be interesting to see what Goodell does; I don't think he wants anything to do with this until Vick is found guilty, but who knows.

Keep in mind he hasn't been charged with anything yet. He's being indicted to determine if there is enough evidence to charge him. I would think if they find enough evidence to charge him (which I would be surprised if they don't), his goose is cooked. Federal charges always seem to bring much tougher sentences than State. I would think Goodwell will at least wait to see what they decide on charges before he does anything. At that point his suspension from the NFL will probably be the least of his concerns.

He has been charged. The grand jury found enough evidence to send it to court.

Guess I missed the whole part where the evidence was brought before the grand jury. Damn job! I miss out on all kinds of stuff. Oh well.....if that's the case, Goodwell should be doing something now. IMO

[GrnBay007]

I think the only thing I "owe" Mike Vick is a good ass kicking. At the very minimum!

[RashanGary]

He may be not guilty but if I were a betting man, I'd say this scumbag was up to his ears in this cruel bullshit.

Great quote Ras. . . .

[Bretsky]

Read the indictments for "Ookie" and his friends, pretty sick shit. People have been raising dogs to fight for a very long time but most do not treat their animals anything like this and I was surprised they found so many dead dogs on the property. Vick is done. Goodell is going to have to do something soon. The Feds did their homework on this one and the odds of him getting off are pretty slim. But you never know...anything can happen in court.


It will be interesting to see what Goodell does; I don't think he wants anything to do with this until Vick is found guilty, but who knows.

Keep in mind he hasn't been charged with anything yet. He's being indicted to determine if there is enough evidence to charge him. I would think if they find enough evidence to charge him (which I would be surprised if they don't), his goose is cooked. Federal charges always seem to bring much tougher sentences than State. I would think Goodwell will at least wait to see what they decide on charges before he does anything. At that point his suspension from the NFL will probably be the least of his concerns.

He has been charged. The grand jury found enough evidence to send it to court.

Guess I missed the whole part where the evidence was brought before the grand jury. Damn job! I miss out on all kinds of stuff. Oh well.....if that's the case, Goodwell should be doing something now. IMO


It's ok, you are blonde

The other day, after discussing colors of hair, I asked my three year old if she has dad's smarts or mom's smarts. She Replied

"I don't have smarts. My hair is Yellow"

[GrnBay007]

Read the indictments for "Ookie" and his friends, pretty sick shit. People have been raising dogs to fight for a very long time but most do not treat their animals anything like this and I was surprised they found so many dead dogs on the property. Vick is done. Goodell is going to have to do something soon. The Feds did their homework on this one and the odds of him getting off are pretty slim. But you never know...anything can happen in court.


It will be interesting to see what Goodell does; I don't think he wants anything to do with this until Vick is found guilty, but who knows.

Keep in mind he hasn't been charged with anything yet. He's being indicted to determine if there is enough evidence to charge him. I would think if they find enough evidence to charge him (which I would be surprised if they don't), his goose is cooked. Federal charges always seem to bring much tougher sentences than State. I would think Goodwell will at least wait to see what they decide on charges before he does anything. At that point his suspension from the NFL will probably be the least of his concerns.

He has been charged. The grand jury found enough evidence to send it to court.

Guess I missed the whole part where the evidence was brought before the grand jury. Damn job! I miss out on all kinds of stuff. Oh well.....if that's the case, Goodwell should be doing something now. IMO


It's ok, you are blonde

The other day, after discussing colors of hair, I asked my three year old if she has dad's smarts or mom's smarts. She Replied

"I don't have smarts. My hair is Yellow"

:butt:

No, it's OK because I really don't care about Ron Mexico! :taunt:

[KYPack]

Who in their right mind would buy a ticket to see this bum play?

The NFL has to get this PR nightmare out of the league quiclky.

As a dog owner/lover, I can't fathom how any person would treat an animal that only wants to please humans so terribly.

Harlan, you seem a little lukewarm in the defense of your four footed brothers.

[BallHawk]

Vick is a thug, once a thug, always a thug. :roll:

A bears fan, a vikings fan and a bunch of Packer fans all in agreement. . .

Now we just need a Lions fan and we've hit the quadrifecta and we've made history

Anybody know any Lions fans? I sure as hell don't.

[Scott Campbell]

Harlan, you seem a little lukewarm in the defense of your four footed brothers.


Maybe not. He might just enjoy playing the role of contrarian. Not that I'd know.

[Fosco33]

Awhile back, there was an interview on TV where they said Vick was one of the 'big dogs' and would consistently bet large sums of cold hard cash on the fights (he'd take bets on his dogs).

The prosecutors need to find and plea bargain some of these eye witnesses as well as trace the purchases to Vick (seems they've done some of this already).

Hard pill to swallow - but actions will invariably catch up and the easy life you led can easily turn if these actions were negative.

"the name is Du-Mass"

[RashanGary]

I see HH's point as far as where do you draw the line. I think it's sick and wrong but at the same time people wound and slowly kill deer with arrows that often times miss the target. People rip hooks out of a fishes mouth and sometimes guts. It's always a grey line with the law.

I personally beleive you should be able to do whatever you please as long as it doesn't hurt others. I'm beginning to extend that beyond the life of just people. Life is life. We live here in harmony with our surroundings. We should not hurt it unless needed IMO.

I've gone hunting and fishing. I've shot one deer and it didn't feel good. Honestly, the thing just looked at me and I shot it straight through the chest. It curled up as I shot it and then jumped. It ran away and blead to death. I didn't feel good about that at all. I went hunting the next year and let a 6 point buck go. I could have shot it, I just got no pleasure in killing the thing. If I was reallly hungry and needed it, it would be different but to just kill the thing to kill it felt wrong to me after experiencing killing one the year before.

I don't know, I think it feels awfull and wrong but until we start protecting all life from torturous acts, HH and Portis certainly have a point. Why this but not that? Dog fighting seems to be a bit of a ghetto culture. Some black guy was on 107.5 this morning saying he's been to dog fights and it is a great party. He said there were white women, black women, it was a rush. He said Vick did it becuase "You can take the guy out of the ghetto but you can't take the ghetto out of the guy". He was just some caller. It's their tradition. We might not understand it and we might feel all cozy for a dog but I assure you, if you saw a gentle animal look you in the eye as you pulled the trigger killing it, you'd feel similar about a deer yet we have no laws against that. There is definitly a grey line here.

[Rastak]

Awhile back, there was an interview on TV where they said Vick was one of the 'big dogs' and would consistently bet large sums of cold hard cash on the fights (he'd take bets on his dogs).

The prosecutors need to find and plea bargain some of these eye witnesses as well as trace the purchases to Vick (seems they've done some of this already).

Hard pill to swallow - but actions will invariably catch up and the easy life you led can easily turn if these actions were negative.

"the name is Du-Mass"


I'm pretty certain the feds did all that BEFORE they brought it before a grand jury. Vicks mentally challenged cousin may even be one. You'll recall this genius suggested the feds planted 54 live dogs on Vicks property. I'm not sure if he has a severe brain injury or he's just a naturally born moron but either way it's almost funny. Word is they have 4 guys lined up to testify....who knows if that is true but if it is, adios arsehole.

[KYPack]

Nike announced Vick has been dropped from their payroll tonite.

[Harlan Huckleby]

As a dog owner/lover, I can't fathom how any person would treat an animal that only wants to please humans so terribly.

Harlan, you seem a little lukewarm in the defense of your four footed brothers.

Pointless cruelty to animals should be punished. But a long prison sentence for Vick effectively says a dog has the same rights/value as a human.

We tolerate a LOT of suffering by animals. JustinHarrell gave bow hunting example, which I was also thinking of. I'm for looking at things honestly, stripping away emotional/cultural bias.

I think it should be legal for Koreans or anybody else to serve dog in restaraunts. A dog is less intelligent than a pig; allowing one animal to be eaten and not the other is just cultural bullying.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Some black guy was on 107.5 this morning saying he's been to dog fights and it is a great party. He said there were white women, black women, it was a rush. He said Vick did it becuase "You can take the guy out of the ghetto but you can't take the ghetto out of the guy".

This is a really good point. That's not to say that dog-fighting should be legal.

Cock-fighting is a HUGE deal across Latin America. (I'm not refering to the sword fights that Madtown hosts.)

[Freak Out]

I see HH's point as far as where do you draw the line. I think it's sick and wrong but at the same time people wound and slowly kill deer with arrows that often times miss the target. People rip hooks out of a fishes mouth and sometimes guts. It's always a grey line with the law.

I personally beleive you should be able to do whatever you please as long as it doesn't hurt others. I'm beginning to extend that beyond the life of just people. Life is life. We live here in harmony with our surroundings. We should not hurt it unless needed IMO.

I've gone hunting and fishing. I've shot one deer and it didn't feel good. Honestly, the thing just looked at me and I shot it straight through the chest. It curled up as I shot it and then jumped. It ran away and blead to death. I didn't feel good about that at all. I went hunting the next year and let a 6 point buck go. I could have shot it, I just got no pleasure in killing the thing. If I was reallly hungry and needed it, it would be different but to just kill the thing to kill it felt wrong to me after experiencing killing one the year before.

I don't know, I think it feels awfull and wrong but until we start protecting all life from torturous acts, HH and Portis certainly have a point. Why this but not that? Dog fighting seems to be a bit of a ghetto culture. Some black guy was on 107.5 this morning saying he's been to dog fights and it is a great party. He said there were white women, black women, it was a rush. He said Vick did it becuase "You can take the guy out of the ghetto but you can't take the ghetto out of the guy". He was just some caller. It's their tradition. We might not understand it and we might feel all cozy for a dog but I assure you, if you saw a gentle animal look you in the eye as you pulled the trigger killing it, you'd feel similar about a deer yet we have no laws against that. There is definitly a grey line here.

I've hunted all my life and there is no comparison between me shooting a moose with my 375 to make steaks and sausage out of and Vick electrocuting a dog because it did not perform in the hole.

[Tarlam!]

Hey Perry Mason, this ain't a courtroom. I don't appreciate you telling me what we "owe" Mike Vick. Speak for yourself.

The Constitution of the United States does not govern the court of public opinion.

Firstly, I am surprised that you take personal offense at a collective statement and pull it into a context that suits you being insulted. I didn't mean my remarks as a personal attack on anyone, so I apologize to all.

However, I see the amount of hate towards Vick on this thread and it makes me wonder if he can expect a "fair and unbiased" trial.

I doubt it, and I admit, that is somewhat disturbing.

[Kiwon]

Tarlam!, our opinions are just our opinions. We can stop buying the athletic shoes bearing his name but we can't put him in prison.

A basic assumption of the American judicial system is that the accused is innocent until proven guilty. The system generally works fairly well, even in high profile cases.

In America, the system is tilted to protect the individual and limit the power of the State. In contrast, in Korea, for example, the prosecution gets three chances to prove an accused person's guilt. Their system is tilted in favor of the State.

Michael Vick will have a fair trial if there is no plea bargain prior to that point. Most cases conclude with the accused pleading out in exchange for a lighter sentence. Once the gravity of the situation sinks in this is probably what Vick will eventually do.

Moral guilt and legal guilt are two different things. The moral outrage directed toward Vick will have no bearing on whether he can have a fair trial or not.

[Rastak]

As a dog owner/lover, I can't fathom how any person would treat an animal that only wants to please humans so terribly.

Harlan, you seem a little lukewarm in the defense of your four footed brothers.

Pointless cruelty to animals should be punished. But a long prison sentence for Vick effectively says a dog has the same rights/value as a human.

We tolerate a LOT of suffering by animals. JustinHarrell gave bow hunting example, which I was also thinking of. I'm for looking at things honestly, stripping away emotional/cultural bias.

I think it should be legal for Koreans or anybody else to serve dog in restaraunts. A dog is less intelligent than a pig; allowing one animal to be eaten and not the other is just cultural bullying.


What?!!!!!

Do honestly believe he'll get the same sentence as if he killed 8 people and forced people to fight to the death?


He'd be executed HH. I have a feeling his sentence will be slightly less than that.

[GrnBay007]

Michael Vick will "more than likely" be prosecuted by local authorities in addition to the conspiracy charge he now faces in federal court, Surry County Commonwealth's Attorney Gerald Poindexter said Wednesday. Poindexter's remark came a day after a federal grand jury indicted the NFL star and three associates. The 18-page document included detailed accusations that Vick helped establish a dog fighting venture in rural Surry County in 2001; gambled heavily on fights, including some in other states; and participated in the execution of dogs that didn't perform well. -- Virginian-Pilot

Wasn't Poindexter somewhat insulted when the Feds took over the investigation? :roll:

[Rastak]

Michael Vick will "more than likely" be prosecuted by local authorities in addition to the conspiracy charge he now faces in federal court, Surry County Commonwealth's Attorney Gerald Poindexter said Wednesday. Poindexter's remark came a day after a federal grand jury indicted the NFL star and three associates. The 18-page document included detailed accusations that Vick helped establish a dog fighting venture in rural Surry County in 2001; gambled heavily on fights, including some in other states; and participated in the execution of dogs that didn't perform well. -- Virginian-Pilot

Wasn't Poindexter somewhat insulted when the Feds took over the investigation? :roll:


Yea, he's a piece of work...."if the collar don't fit you must acquit....."




http://www.profootballtalk.com/GeraldCochran.jpg

[Scott Campbell]

However, I see the amount of hate towards Vick on this thread and it makes me wonder if he can expect a "fair and unbiased" trial.

I doubt it, and I admit, that is somewhat disturbing.


Did the amount of hatred towards OJ affect his ability to receive a fair and unbiased trial. There are better things to go be disturbed about.

[Scott Campbell]

.................. allowing one animal to be eaten and not the other is just cultural bullying.


.........it was only a matter of time until you began speaking out against veal chops.

[Scott Campbell]

But a long prison sentence for Vick effectively says a dog has the same rights/value as a human.


Oh boy, here comes the moral relativism. What a complete waste of time. By that sort of logic: I suppose that OJ's crimes against humans was worse, and he didn't do any jail time. Therefore Mike Vick shouldn't do any jail time?

Dog fighting is bad and illegal. Animal torture is bad and illegal. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Mike Vick knows that. Everybody knows that. And he didn't just barely cross over the line as a participant. He allegedly crossed way over the line as an organizer. You do the crime, you pay the time.

[Scott Campbell]

I'm for looking at things honestly, stripping away emotional/cultural bias.


This sort of view is exactly what the people who wish to continue dog fighting and animal torture need. Softies. There Saturday night entertainment depends on this.

[Scott Campbell]

But a long prison sentence for Vick effectively says a dog has the same rights/value as a human.


It says what?

Are you really serious?

Don't you think that's a bit of a stretch?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I've hunted all my life and there is no comparison between me shooting a moose with my 375 to make steaks and sausage out of and Vick electrocuting a dog because it did not perform in the hole.

First of all, nobody is suggesting that Vick didn't commit a crime. Everybody wants to see him do some prison time, it's just a matter of weighing his crime, given how animals are generally treated.

And this is NOT an anti-hunting thread. But l if you think about bow-hunting, is that not allowing horrible suffering by an intelligent animal for the sporting enertainment of humans? Is this so very different from dog fighting? Or bullfighting?

We've agreed as a society that animals have FAR less value and rights than humans, they are property. If you get tired of your mutt, you legally can drive him down to the vet and order a summary execution. If you want to murder a relative who comes to live with you, you have to be much more clever about it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

.................. allowing one animal to be eaten and not the other is just cultural bullying.
.........it was only a matter of time until you began speaking out against veal chops.

actually my argument is for eating veal chops.

[Harlan Huckleby]

But a long prison sentence for Vick effectively says a dog has the same rights/value as a human.
Oh boy, here comes the moral relativism. What a complete waste of time. By that sort of logic: I suppose that OJ's crimes against humans was worse, and he didn't do any jail time. Therefore Mike Vick shouldn't do any jail time?

I can't follow what you are saying, it appears to be some sort of straw man argument. I don't even recognize the straw man.

But the law certainly is based on moral relativism, especially when it comes to sentencing. We don't impose the same penalties on every crime. For instance, a "crime of passion" gets a lower penalty than a premeditated crime, this is moral relativism that society has set. And within sentencing guidelines, the particular cirucmstances of an individual are also considered by the judge.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Do honestly believe he'll get the same sentence as if he killed 8 people and forced people to fight to the death?

He'd be executed HH. I have a feeling his sentence will be slightly less than that.

Well, right, I suppose even a 10-year prison sentence would be a light sentence for a mass murderer.

My opinion is that cruelty to animals should NEVER carry more than a 6-month prison sentence, under any circumstances. It has nothing to do with my outrage (or lack thereof) over the acts. I just think we have to be consistent in our treatment of animals, it should be based on principles, not emotions.

[Rastak]

Do honestly believe he'll get the same sentence as if he killed 8 people and forced people to fight to the death?

He'd be executed HH. I have a feeling his sentence will be slightly less than that.

Well, right, I suppose even a 10-year prison sentence would be a light sentence for a mass murderer.

My opinion is that cruelty to animals should NEVER carry more than a 6-month prison sentence, under any circumstances. It has nothing to do with my outrage (or lack thereof) over the acts. I just think we have to be consistent in our treatment of animals, it should be based on principles, not emotions.

What should violating RICO laws carry? Operating a gambling operation across state lines?

I'll tell ya what, we'll give him 6 months for cruelty to animals and 10 years for the federal conspiricy charges related to but not directly for cruelty to animals. Would that make you feel better? I'd be fine either way.

[Harlan Huckleby]

who is that Sooner guy in your pic? I assume it is some Viking twit, but I don't recongnize him.

edit: oh, wait, it must be the running back that the vikes drafted, peterson.

[Rastak]

who is that Sooner guy in your pic? I assume it is some Viking twit, but I don't recongnize him.

edit: oh, wait, it must be the running back that the vikes drafted, peterson.


Way to change the subject HH....you'll know who it is soon enough!


Bwahahaha.....

sorry, training starts soon so I'm getting fired up.... :)

[Harlan Huckleby]

change the subject? argument was over - you graciously conceded. I was being magnaminous in victory.

[Zool]

who is that Sooner guy in your pic? I assume it is some Viking twit, but I don't recongnize him.

edit: oh, wait, it must be the running back that the vikes drafted, peterson.


Way to change the subject HH....you'll know who it is soon enough!


Bwahahaha.....

sorry, training starts soon so I'm getting fired up.... :)

As much as I do not respect McKinley, I do not like the prospect of facing Peterson twice a year for the next decade. If the kid stays healthy, he's gonna terrorize a lot of people.

[Zool]

change the subject? argument was over - you graciously conceded. I was being magnaminous in victory.Magnamity is the the cornerstone of any good relationship

[Harlan Huckleby]

you'll know who it is soon enough!


Bwahahaha.....

Well, don't get too cocky. We got a colored fellow in our backfield too. Name's Noah - the Northwestern Nightmare. Be very afraid.

[Jimx29]

DOH!!! (http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/20/news/companies/bc.chrysler.ad.reut/index.htm?eref=rss_topstories)


[quote]Chrysler pulls SUV ad with electrocuted dog
Internet video ad pulled from YouTube was in 'exremely poor taste' says Chrysler.
July 20 2007: 12:51 PM EDT

DETROIT (Reuters) -- Chrysler Group apologized on Thursday for an advertisement that showed a dog being electrocuted beside its new Dodge Nitro sports utility vehicle.

The ad, created by BBDO Netherlands which supports Chrysler's sales in the Dutch market, shows a dog being electrocuted after urinating on a Nitro's wheels. The agency is part of Omnicom Group Inc's BBDO Worldwide.

The ad, which ends with the dog going up in flames, has the tagline "charged with adrenaline." According to Chrysler, the ad was placed exclusively on the Internet.

"Chrysler Group was dismayed to discover that an advertisement created by an ad agency supporting our Netherlands Market Performance Center goes far beyond the bounds of what the company considers appropriate," Chrysler said in a statement.

The company said the ad included "fictional yet inappropriate treatment of an animal" and said it was "in extremely bad taste."

"Although European commercials -- especially 'viral' ads like this one -- are often edgier, this one went over the edge," Chrysler said in the statement. The company said it was "investigating the origins of this commercial."
Hybrid lovers: The honeymoon may be over

Chrysler had the ad pulled from YouTube.com. It was unclear if it was on other Web sites.

This is not the first time Chrysler has run into controversy for its advertising.

The company was criticized by gay groups last year for a Dodge Caliber hatchback car ad in the United States that showed a little fairy turning a tough-looking man walking a large dog into a yellow-clad man walking four small dogs on pink leashes in the "Anything but Cute" campaign.

Last year, Chrysler's U.S. dealers criticized the company for its ads, saying they did not highlight the competitive features of the vehicles.

Chrysler's condemnation of the advertisement comes days after Atlanta Falcons football player Michael Vick was indicted over alleged involvement in a dog-fighting operation.

Vick has denied direct involvement in pitbull fights alleged to have taken place on property he owns in Virginia. The indictment in Richmond, Virginia, said dogs had been put to death by drowning, hanging, gunshot and electrocution. It also charged Vick and his associates with shooting dogs that did not pass muster after tests of their fighting ability.

Vick has no connection with Chrysler Group.

[Tarlam!]

Did the amount of hatred towards OJ affect his ability to receive a fair and unbiased trial. There are better things to go be disturbed about.

Are you serious? Two wrongs make a right, is that your argument?

Listen, you got 17 wives to care for. Do your thing.

[Scott Campbell]

Did the amount of hatred towards OJ affect his ability to receive a fair and unbiased trial. There are better things to go be disturbed about.

Are you serious? Two wrongs make a right, is that your argument?


Huh? My point is that if OJ can get a fair trial, so can Vick. Public outrage was not enough to convict the Juice.

[the_idle_threat]

Relax people ..... they're just dogs .....

:satan: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :cat:

[Kiwon]

Idle, your animation there almost put me in a hypnotic state. Very sly on your part.

Here let me try.


:satan: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :shtf: :cat:

Everyone...follow the flying crap....just keeping staring.........watch the crap....

YOU'RE A HUNGRY CHICKEN LOOKING FOR FOOD!

[Scott Campbell]

Reeves says he would 'do anything I could to help Mike'

ATLANTA -- Former Atlanta Falcons coach Dan Reeves told Michael Vick several weeks ago he would help the troubled quarterback in any possible way.

That offer still stands, even though Vick is now under federal indictment for allegedly hosting dogfights and brutally killing pit bulls.

"Sure, I'd do anything I could to help Mike," Reeves said Friday. "I think he's basically a good person. Unfortunately it just seems like he's made some bad choices over the years with the company he keeps."

Vick's problems aren't just about football. Public outrage ensued after he and three others were charged with competitive dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting, and conducting the enterprise across state lines.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell spoke Friday with members of the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals while approximately 50 activists with People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals protested outside his office in New York.

Nike announced this week that it would suspend release of Vick's latest signature shoe, prompting the National Humane Society to demand that the shoe and apparel company pull all Vick-endorsed products from stores.

The indictment and ensuing uproar has "shocked and saddened" Reeves, who initially called Vick earlier this summer to invite him to play in a charity golf tournament. But the former coach also wanted Vick, a three-time Pro Bowl selection, to know that many people could help him clear up his image.

"Like most everybody else, I'd heard a lot of the things that could've happened in his life over the last year or so," Reeves said. "I was shocked and saddened to hear about the dogfighting. Unfortunately, when you look at it, it seems like he's had the same circle of friends he had as a kid."

Vick hardly helped himself or the Falcons when he gestured obscenely to fans at the Georgia Dome following a lopsided loss to New Orleans last year. He promised the next day that he would never embarrass Atlanta fans again.

"I don't know where it came from," Vick said last Nov. 27, "but the people who know me know that's not me and that's not my character."

Vick was a 20-year-old Virginia Tech sophomore six years ago when Reeves drafted him No. 1 overall in the NFL.

During his three seasons with Vick, Reeves considered him as a person who earned respect in the locker room but usually kept to himself once he left the team's complex.

"Maybe that's because he kept hanging out with a few guys he grew up with instead of making more friends on the team," Reeves said. "During the first two years, Mike prepared as hard as anybody. He never left anything on the field, and he had the kind of speed most people never saw at his position."

After Vick made two starts in eight games as a rookie behind Chris Chandler, the Falcons named him their starter in 2002. He led them to the playoffs and a stunning wildcard win at Green Bay.

Team owner Arthur Blank fired Reeves after Vick broke his ankle the following preseason and missed 12 starts. Atlanta went 3-1 when Vick returned, but his slow recovery all but ruined a season that finished 5-11.

Neither Vick nor his legal representatives has spoken publicly since the indictment was released.

The quarterback and his four associates will enter pleas Thursday at the U.S. District Court in Richmond, Va. The Falcons begin training camp the same day, but football seems the least of Vick's worries.

If convicted of both felony charges, the four face up to six years in prison, fines of up to $350,000 and restitution.

"When look at the big picture, you're talking about a quarterback who's had all the ability in the world, a guy who could've accomplished great things," Reeves said. "Maybe he still can, but it seems like he's made it awfully tough on himself."

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

[Scott Campbell]

Dan: Mike, can I do anything to help you out here? Anything at all?

Mike: Well, can you put $12K on Brutus in Saturday's feature bout for me? And would you mind making sure all my buds have a great time so they keep coming back? And don't forget to clean up all the blood. Thanks Dan.

Dan: Uhhhh....that wasn't exactly what I had in mind.

[Tarlam!]

This guy seems to share a lot of people's opinions:

Here's the 'right' that matters: Vick should sit in '07
July 18, 2007
By Gregg Doyel
CBS SportsLine.com National Columnist

Michael Vick can't play this season. You know that, right? He cannot play. Not for the Atlanta Falcons. Not for anybody, not anywhere, not at any time. Not until he is clear of the charges leveled against him by the federal government.

And if he's not cleared of those charges? If he's found guilty of sponsoring a macabre dogfighting ring? Then the NFL has seen the last of Michael Vick.


Distractions will follow Michael Vick and the Falcons every step of the way if he plays. (Getty Images)
Don't give me "due process." Look around you. Do you see a court of law? Do you see a judge, a jury, a lawyer, a bailiff? The NFL is not the U.S. judicial system, and for the sake of this argument, Michael Vick is not a defendant. He's a football player who has been accused of something so serious, something so heinous, that the NFL cannot in good faith allow him to represent the most popular sports league in this country.

Don't give me "innocent until proven guilty." Michael Vick has no inalienable right to play football this season or any season for the Atlanta Falcons. Our colonial militia didn't throw tea in the Boston Harbor so Michael Vick, some 230 years later, could play football for the Falcons. U.S. soldiers have not died in wars all over the world, and are not dying right now in the Middle East, so Michael Vick can throw a football.

Don't give me "the presumption of innocence." The NFL isn't deciding whether Vick will spend the rest of his life behind bars. The NFL only has to decide whether Vick should, or should not, be allowed to play while the most sordid sports story in years plays out.

Michael Vick simply cannot play this season. Surely you understand that. His first court date is July 26, the same day the Falcons are scheduled to begin training camp. That's a nice touch, but think further ahead to when the Falcons are getting ready for their season opener Sept. 9 at Minnesota. At the same time he will be trying to prepare his offense for the Vikings, Vick will be helping prepare his defense for a nasty court case that will decide his freedom.

He won't be ready to play for the Falcons. Not at quarterback, where the mental side is so critical. It wouldn't be fair to Vick to ask him to play with this court case hanging over his head, and if it sounds like I'm being sympathetic to Vick's plight, I'm not. He has been accused of crimes that offend me greatly, and if he's found guilty, I hope he spends so much time in jail that he dies there. Dog fighting? Dog killing? Only the scum of the earth partake in such an atrocity.

Think ahead to Sept. 16, when the Falcons visit Jacksonville. There are also trips to Tennessee, New Orleans, Carolina, St. Louis, Tampa Bay and Phoenix. In every city, Michael Vick will bring the circus. Animal cruelty foes will picket stadiums. Fans will be ugly, maybe cruel, possibly even criminal. Things will be thrown at Vick. Things will be yelled.

For those eight Sundays on the road, Michael Vick will be hated like no visiting player has ever been hated.

Baseball villain Barry Bonds thinks he has it tough when he goes on the road? Bonds is only accused of being a jerk and a cheat. Vick has been accused of killing dogs, which ought to earn him the malice of even the home crowd. Any idea how many NFL fans own a dog? Me neither, but it's a large number. And every last one of them should hate Vick. At this moment I do, and he hasn't even been found guilty yet.

But he has been charged, and not just anywhere. He has been charged in federal court, and for those who don't know what that means, let me tell you: It means Vick is almost certainly guilty. According to the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, 99 percent of the people indicted by the federal government between 2000 and 2005 were convicted.

Did you catch that number? It was 99 percent. Guilty. How can that be? This is how: The U.S. government doesn't indict just anybody, and certainly wouldn't indict Vick or anyone else for headlines. The government is far too busy and far too cheap to waste its time and money pursuing a trial against a defendant that has even a remote chance of winning. The U.S. government only indicts you if it believes it can and will convict you.

The NFL has to know that percentage. So does Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank. They have to know that Michael Vick, in all probability -- say, 99 percent -- will be convicted of masterminding a dogfighting operation. And if he is convicted, he will go to jail for a long, long time. Which means his NFL career is finished.

So why let him play now? This isn't a guy who deserves the benefit of the doubt. He has shown horrible judgment over and over, from the Ron Mexico herpes incident to the middle finger he showed the home crowd to the James Bond water bottle he used in an unsuccessful attempt at sneaking marijuana jewelry onto an airplane. None of those cases led to any sort of conviction in a court of law, but Pacman Jones is serving a one-year suspension from the NFL and as of today, he has been convicted of nothing. He hasn't even been indicted by the federal government, as Vick has.

The Falcons deserve some relief, too. They would take a huge salary cap hit for releasing Vick, but that hit should be waived. The Falcons should not be forced to keep a poisonous person because of NFL salary cap ramifications. That is not the way anyone should want the NFL to operate. It's in the best interests of everyone in the NFL for Michael Vick to never again wear a uniform, so the Falcons should be cut some slack for releasing him.

The bleeding hearts among you -- the Vick fans, the gullible, the blind -- want to know how the NFL can keep an innocent man off the field.

I've got a better question:

How could the NFL possibly let him play?


http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10260902

[Scott Campbell]

I agree with that article.

[Tarlam!]

I agree with that article.

Yeah, I had you in mind when I read it.

[Rastak]

But he has been charged, and not just anywhere. He has been charged in federal court, and for those who don't know what that means, let me tell you: It means Vick is almost certainly guilty. According to the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, 99 percent of the people indicted by the federal government between 2000 and 2005 were convicted.

Did you catch that number? It was 99 percent. Guilty. How can that be? This is how: The U.S. government doesn't indict just anybody, and certainly wouldn't indict Vick or anyone else for headlines. The government is far too busy and far too cheap to waste its time and money pursuing a trial against a defendant that has even a remote chance of winning. The U.S. government only indicts you if it believes it can and will convict you.


This is pretty much what I've been trying to say. If he isn't guilty then he'll have his day in court to show that but I'm pretty sure the evidence is gonna prove he's an asshole of the first order and he's gonna be alot sorrier than he probably already is that he didn't learn right from wrong when he was a little kid.

[Tarlam!]

Yup, Ras, that helped me understand a lot more about it myself.

[Scott Campbell]

I agree with that article.

Yeah, I had you in mind when I read it.


Just so you understand how I got worked up earlier.

I believe this country has a fierce pride in the enormous price that it paid to gain it's freedom, and keep it's freedom. It was not handed to us, it was hard earned. And keeping that freedom is not a given, as there are people around the world that hate us and our way of life and would do anything in their power to destroy us. Nobody hates Aussies like that. Nobody hates Canadians like that.

So if I see someone from outside this country wrap themselves up in our flag, and our constitution, and tell us how were supposed to be nicer to Mike Vick to keep in line with the principals of our country - it pisses me off. Mike Vick has been and will be treated better by this country than by any other country on the face of the earth. Do you think that kid could have earned a $130M contract for throwing a football anywhere else?

I think people outside the US typically understand us much better than we understand them. Were a pretty high profile country. Our culture gets inspected and disected under the worlds microscope, and I can understand how people might think they know what it's like to be an American. But even though you have that better understanding, you're still not an American.

[Kiwon]

Jason Whitlock on Vick......well worth the reading

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/columnists/jason_whitlock/story/195760.html