Vick goes to court today....

[Harlan Huckleby]

You dont care about any injustice.

this part is not true. Probably Vick is going to get what he deserves, that's good.

But his real crime was the dogfighting. And there should have been a trial. Sometimes "justice" means that bad guys get trials, and sometimes they get set free.

[Rastak]

You dont care about any injustice.

this part is not true. Probably Vick is going to get what he deserves, that's good.

But his real crime was the dogfighting. And there should have been a trial. Sometimes "justice" means that bad guys get trials, and sometimes they get set free.


Why should there be a trial when a guy pleads guilty? That doesn't make an ounce of sense!

[Patler]

God Patler, you've got a literal mind. I don't know or care if you are Jewish. It's a joke, see, I'm taking your vague inferences and jumping to a conclusion for comic effect.

Who's being literal?

You are so easily tweaked!

[Harlan Huckleby]

Why should there be a trial when a guy pleads guilty? That doesn't make an ounce of sense!

the process of getting the guilty plea was flawed. arguably - that is what the argument was about.

[Patler]

By a Federal report of about 1000 racketeering charges, the typical size of the business in a "continuing criminal enterprise" racketeering charge is between $1 million and $2 million. 21% were based on gambling, second to drugs at just 23%.

I suspect Vick's kennel fit in quite nicely with the norm.

Maybe so. Then charge them and make it stick and court.

That's probably what the second grand jury scheduled for this week was to consider. It appears that Vick is the one who doesn't want that to happen, so he has caved in without a fight, or even the second set of charges being filed.

[Patler]

Why should there be a trial when a guy pleads guilty? That doesn't make an ounce of sense!

the process of getting the guilty plea was flawed. arguably - that is what the argument was about.

FLAWED??? How??

The prosecutor can threaten all he wants, until charges are filed the defendant has no risk. Charges may never be filed. Good defense attorneys know that, they know and understand prosecutorial bluster. They counsel their client accordingly.

It looks like Vick is entering a plea specifically to avoid the second round of charges. Why? Because he knows what he did, he knows the prosecutors know, and he knows right now is as good as it will ever be for him. It will only get worse for him because he knows they got him.

[Harlan Huckleby]

That's probably what the second grand jury scheduled for this week was to consider. It appears that Vick is the one who doesn't want that to happen, so he has caved in without a fight, or even the second set of charges being filed.

The prosecutor also did not want this to happen, they offered a plea deal.

Patler, we disagree on whether that next level of charges are appropriate. I smell that they are heavy-handed. Maybe I would change my mind based on more information. I don't like plea deals where the prosecution uses poor discretion in bringing draconian charges, it subverts justice.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It looks like Vick is entering a plea specifically to avoid the second round of charges. Why? Because he knows what he did, he knows the prosecutors know, and he knows right now is as good as it will ever be for him. It will only get worse for him because he knows they got him.

They don't necessarily "got him". But huge punishments mean huge risks. I wouldn't want to risk 20+ years in prison.

[Patler]

I don't like plea deals where the prosecution uses poor discretion in bringing draconian charges, it subverts justice.

So do I, BUT this appears not to be one of those situations.
Like I stated once before, I think Vick is in a lot deeper than it looks right now. Otherwise, his attorneys would never go for this.

We differ not in how we think prosecutors should do their jobs. We differ in our opinions on what Vick has done. You think he is being dumped on for a low level of culpability. I think he is a lot more of a criminal than has been made public, and he is taking a good deal for himself while it is still available to him.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think he is a lot more of a criminal than has been made public,

If that's true, then I like this plea deal even less. I'm not buying it, tho.

This is one that should have gone to trial.

[Patler]

It looks like Vick is entering a plea specifically to avoid the second round of charges. Why? Because he knows what he did, he knows the prosecutors know, and he knows right now is as good as it will ever be for him. It will only get worse for him because he knows they got him.

They don't necessarily "got him". But huge punishments mean huge risks. I wouldn't want to risk 20+ years in prison.

That's what good defense attorneys are for, to ensure the charges and ultimately the conviction and penalties meet the crime.

Defense attorneys have an easy time of making a defendant look like a victim when the prosecutor over-charges a crime. The result is often an out and out acquittal. Vick can afford the best, yet they are caving. That tells me a lot about his guilt.

[Freak Out]

I didn't read whats being argued but lets face it; he's guilty as sin.

He wouldn't have taken the plea bargin if there was any chance he was going to win. People will 100 million in the bank just don't do that.

People take plea deals when they are innocent. Now most are not wealthy and have access only to public defenders but it happens...more than most people would imagine. They are threatened and railroaded into making a deal because if they don't " they will spend much more time behind bars if they go to trial and lose". Plea deals = convictions and $$$ savings because you remove the cost of a lengthy trial.

[the_idle_threat]

I agree with Harlan on the principle thing, although I don't necessarily agree with his take on the facts.

I think it's a subtle abuse of goverment power when a prosecutor threatens to bring additonal charges or drop iffy but more serious charges in order to coerce a harder bargain on the plea deal. It does happen (I used to be annoyed about it all the time when Paul Bucher would do it to defendants in Waukesha County) and although lots of tricks and hijinks happen in the criminal legal system on both sides, I don't think prosecutorial bluffing on iffy additional charges serves the best intertests of justice.

People here are quick to assume that Vick must be guilty as sin since the Feds have gotten an indictment and are bothering to bring charges. (i.e. They have a 90+% conviction rate in Federal court so charges MUST = gulity.) But indictments are not foolproof, and if guilt can be assumed based upon charges being brought, then why bother to have Federal trials at all?

That being said, I don't agree that the RICO charges are necessarily excessive, as Harlan apparently believes. We don't know the underlying facts one way or the other. I'm just not willing to assume that they aren't.

Using the threat of additional charges as a scare tactic to force a quick decision on a plea deal just reeks of bullying IMO, and suggests that the additonal charges might be excessive.

[MJZiggy]

The threat of additional charges on the Federal level might be a scare tactic, but the fact that if he pleads guilty then the State of Virginia will prosecute should offset the break he gets not having more charges brought by the Feds. I wonder if the state was in on the negotiations for the plea...?

[Patler]

I think he is a lot more of a criminal than has been made public,

If that's true, then I like this plea deal even less. I'm not buying it, tho.

This is one that should have gone to trial.

Whether or not it went to trial was completely within Vick's control by his plea. The "deal" really isn't even all that much of a deal for Vick from some reports. Consider:

Of the charges that have been entered to date, the maximum time reportedly is 5 years. One prosecutor "insider" reportedly said they will recommend 36 months. First time offenders never get the maximum, so this is not much of a concession.

He did not enter a "no contest" plea. Reportedly he is pleading guilty. Assuming a no contest plea was an option, this is striking, and telling.

Reportedly there has been no "deal" w/r/t possible state charges, further Federal charges for other crimes, or the NFL. Basically, the prosecutors have given him no assurances concerning any of these. nor has the NFL.

If these reports are accurate, he seems to be throwing himself on the mercy of the prosecutor, the judge, the NFL and the public at an early stage, hoping to stave off what he knows can never get any better, only worse, the way I see it.

[Kiwon]

The threat of additional charges on the Federal level might be a scare tactic, but the fact that if he pleads guilty then the State of Virginia will prosecute should offset the break he gets not having more charges brought by the Feds. I wonder if the state was in on the negotiations for the plea...?

MJZ, I have not read much of the news coverage extensively so I was wondering the same thing.

I may be incorrect but what I heard a lawyer say yesterday was if the various state authorities did not join with the Feds in a plea deal then Vick could face state charges separately. It's more than just Virginia since it involved interstate traffic.

Given the nature of these offenses, I would expect the states' AGs to think seriously about going after these guys. I imagine their citizens would demand they do.

While most inmates typically do a 1/3 or 1/2 of their sentences before they are released, the combination of the federal and states offenses might end up giving Vick and co. some significant prison time.

[Rastak]

The threat of additional charges on the Federal level might be a scare tactic, but the fact that if he pleads guilty then the State of Virginia will prosecute should offset the break he gets not having more charges brought by the Feds. I wonder if the state was in on the negotiations for the plea...?

MJZ, I have not read much of the news coverage extensively so I was wondering the same thing.

I may be incorrect but what I heard a lawyer say yesterday was if the various state authorities did not join with the Feds in a plea deal then Vick could face state charges separately. It's more than just Virginia since it involved interstate traffic.

Given the nature of these offenses, I would expect the states' AGs to think seriously about going after these guys. I imagine their citizens would demand they do.

While most inmates typically do a 1/3 or 1/2 of their sentences before they are released, the combination of the federal and states offenses might end up giving Vick and co. some significant prison time.


My understanding is that the state charges are 100% seperate. He has only plead guilty to the federal charges. When or if he signs a statement admitting to hanging, drowning, and electrocuting dogs he decided wasn't tough enough, the state trial will be VERY short since he's essentially testified he did it in a court of law already.

He's screwed.

[retailguy]

He's screwed.


Literally and figuratively.... :twisted:

[Rastak]

He's screwed.


Literally and figuratively.... :twisted:


Amen brother.

[GrnBay007]

You are rebellious,. I like that. I hope we can hang out one day and have fun like that.


Mad and HH......
Something about the idea of that scares me. :P

[Rastak]

Gary Myers


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dogs bury $100M

Vick gets thrown for loss as deal could be voided







The bill for Michael Vick's role in illegal dogfighting could reach a staggering $100 million in lost future salary, potential repayment of bonuses demanded by the Falcons for defaulting on his contract and endorsement money that is drying up.

That not does not include the cost to his reputation and image. No price tag can be put on that damage, which may be irreparable.

Vick will plead guilty to federal dogfighting charges Monday in Richmond, Va. A sentencing date has not been set, but it is anticipated he will spend 12-18 months in prison. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell could then add a year's suspension, meaning Vick's earliest re-entry into the NFL appears to be 2010, assuming a team wants to take on the baggage and negative publicity that will come with signing him.

The grand total for Vick's potential financial losses: $71 million in base salary, as much as $25 million in bonus repayment, depending on the interpretation of roster bonuses in the new collective bargaining agreement and $3 million-$5 million per year in endorsements.

"It's game over from a marketing standpoint for Michael Vick," one industry expert said yesterday.

The Falcons signed Vick to a 10-year, $130 million contract in December, 2004, the largest in NFL history. He has already collected about $40 million, including $37 million in signing and roster bonuses. Sources expect the Falcons to aggressively pursue Vick repaying the pro-rated portion of the $37 million, which could be as high as $25 million. Sources also indicated they expect Vick to challenge the amount. The Falcons could also face opposition from the NFL Players Association. The dispute could wind up going to an arbitrator.

Vick's contract included a $7.5 million signing bonus, which was paid in three installments, the last one within five months of signing the contract; a $22.5 million roster bonus in 2005 that was paid out with $4.5 million upfront, $8 million on Oct.15, 2005 and $10 million on March 15, 2006 and for salary-cap purposes counted as a signing bonus. He also had a $7 million roster bonus for 2006 that was paid in full on March 15 this year, about half of which was counted as a signing bonus in the cap.

There is default language in the contract that makes Vick vulnerable to the Falcons pursuing reimbursement. Part of the clause allows for a pro-rated share to be recouped if Vick "is suspended by the NFL or Club for Conduct Detrimental, or is suspended for violating any of the NFL's disciplinary policies or programs, including but not limited to, the NFL Policy and Program for Substances of Abuse, the NFL Policy and Procedures for Anabolic Steroids and Related Substances and the NFL Personal Conduct Policy, then Player shall be in default of this agreement."

Vick voided out the last year of his contract in 2014 at $17 million after reaching a 45% playing time incentive, thus leaving $71 million in non-guaranteed base salaries from 2007-2013 on the table. The Falcons are expected to cut Vick - but not quite yet. Goodell has asked them to refrain from taking any action against him pending a decision by the commissioner.

And with salary-cap savings available if the Falcons wait until the start on the 2008 league year next March, there is no need for them to release him now. The collective bargaining agreement allows teams to release a specified number of players before June 1 but still get the June1 benefit of avoiding immediate acceleration into the salary cap.

Vick was due to make $6 million in base salary this year. That will come off the Falcons books. So will his future base salaries, including the $7.5 million he was due to make next year. Atlanta should have ample salary-cap room to sign a veteran quarterback next year. The problem is franchise quarterbacks rarely make it to the open market. If Atlanta has a bad season, it will have a high 2008 draft pick. That could allow new coach Bobby Petrino to draft Brian Brohm, his quarterback at Louisville.

Rawlings ended its endorsement deal with Vick, Nike suspended his contract, Upper Deck and Donruss are not including Vick's trading card in their releases this season and the NFL is no longer selling Vick merchandise through its online store.

"He has just become radioactive," Marc Ganis, the president of Sportscorp Ltd., a Chicago-based sports business consulting firm, said after Vick was indicted last month.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Dogs bury $100M

charge the dogs with racketeering.



hanging with Madtown:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/chcoman.jpg


I know neither of these "jokes" (Patler style quotes) are funny. Tough shit, I'm not getting payed for this.

[GBRulz]

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- The head of the Atlanta chapter of the NAACP said Wednesday that Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick has made mistakes but that they should not cost him his football career with the NFL.


NFL star Michael Vick has accepted an offer to plead guilty to conspiracy charges in a dogfighting case.

1 of 2 Vick is expected to plead guilty Monday to federal conspiracy charges in an illegal dogfighting operation.

R.L. White, president of the Atlanta chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said his organization does not condone dogfighting or any other illegal activity, but he told reporters that Vick should be given a chance to redeem himself.

"In some instances, I believe Michael Vick has received more negative press than if he would've killed a human being," White said. "The way he is being persecuted, he wouldn't have been persecuted that much had he killed somebody."

White said he believes Vick will cut a deal rather than roll the dice on a trial and take a chance on being found guilty, but "whatever he's done wrongly, he needs to pay for it.

White also said he didn't understand the uproar over dogfighting, when hunting deer and other animals is perfectly acceptable. Watch NAACP official say don't pile on Vick »

He urged the National Football League, the Atlanta Falcons and Vick's commercial sponsors not to dump the troubled athlete.

"We feel that whatever the courts demand as a punishment for what he has done, once he has paid his debt to society, then he should be treated like any other person in the NFL," White said.

Falcons owner Arthur Blank and NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell have said they will not make a decision on Vick's future immediately.

After Vick's indictment last month, Goodell ordered the quarterback not to report to training camp until the league completed its review of the case. The NFL is considering what, if any, sanctions it should impose on Vick.

When Vick appears Monday in federal court in Richmond, Virginia, the details of his plea agreement will be made public. The judge in the case will have the final say over the plea agreement.

The deal, if accepted by the judge, means the 27-year-old football star will avoid more serious charges that would have been considered by a grand jury that convened this week.

Sources close to the case have said federal prosecutors offered to recommend an 18- to 36-month prison sentence for the suspended star quarterback for his alleged role in the dogfighting operation. Vick's attorneys were trying to reduce that to less than a year.

Vick's three co-defendants in the dogfighting case already accepted agreements to plead guilty in exchange for reduced sentences.

Court documents released last week showed that two of Vick's alleged partners said he helped kill dogs that didn't fight well and that the three men "executed approximately eight dogs" in ways that included hanging and drowning.

The dogs were killed because they fared poorly in "testing" sessions in April at Vick's property in Virginia, where the dog fighting venture was based, according to documents released following guilty pleas from two co-defendants -- Purnell Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, and Quanis Phillips, 28, of Atlanta. See what Vick's former co-defendants admitted »


Peace and Phillips pleaded guilty Friday. A third man, Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton, Virginia, pleaded guilty July 30.

In the court documents, Peace and Phillips said that the money behind the Bad Newz Kennels dogfighting operation came "almost exclusively" from Vick, and they told prosecutors that other accusations in the 18-page indictment are true.

[GBRulz]

White also said he didn't understand the uproar over dogfighting, when hunting deer and other animals is perfectly acceptable

Not sure what kind of credibility one can expect to have when making idiotic statements like this one.

[packinpatland]

Sharpton and Jackson will be in on this before it's over.

[Zool]

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- The head of the Atlanta chapter of the NAACP said Wednesday that Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick has made mistakes but that they should not cost him his football career with the NFL.


NFL star Michael Vick has accepted an offer to plead guilty to conspiracy charges in a dogfighting case.

1 of 2 Vick is expected to plead guilty Monday to federal conspiracy charges in an illegal dogfighting operation.

R.L. White, president of the Atlanta chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said his organization does not condone dogfighting or any other illegal activity, but he told reporters that Vick should be given a chance to redeem himself.

"In some instances, I believe Michael Vick has received more negative press than if he would've killed a human being," White said. "The way he is being persecuted, he wouldn't have been persecuted that much had he killed somebody."

White said he believes Vick will cut a deal rather than roll the dice on a trial and take a chance on being found guilty, but "whatever he's done wrongly, he needs to pay for it.

White also said he didn't understand the uproar over dogfighting, when hunting deer and other animals is perfectly acceptable. Watch NAACP official say don't pile on Vick »

He urged the National Football League, the Atlanta Falcons and Vick's commercial sponsors not to dump the troubled athlete.

"We feel that whatever the courts demand as a punishment for what he has done, once he has paid his debt to society, then he should be treated like any other person in the NFL," White said.

Falcons owner Arthur Blank and NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell have said they will not make a decision on Vick's future immediately.

After Vick's indictment last month, Goodell ordered the quarterback not to report to training camp until the league completed its review of the case. The NFL is considering what, if any, sanctions it should impose on Vick.

When Vick appears Monday in federal court in Richmond, Virginia, the details of his plea agreement will be made public. The judge in the case will have the final say over the plea agreement.

The deal, if accepted by the judge, means the 27-year-old football star will avoid more serious charges that would have been considered by a grand jury that convened this week.

Sources close to the case have said federal prosecutors offered to recommend an 18- to 36-month prison sentence for the suspended star quarterback for his alleged role in the dogfighting operation. Vick's attorneys were trying to reduce that to less than a year.

Vick's three co-defendants in the dogfighting case already accepted agreements to plead guilty in exchange for reduced sentences.

Court documents released last week showed that two of Vick's alleged partners said he helped kill dogs that didn't fight well and that the three men "executed approximately eight dogs" in ways that included hanging and drowning.

The dogs were killed because they fared poorly in "testing" sessions in April at Vick's property in Virginia, where the dog fighting venture was based, according to documents released following guilty pleas from two co-defendants -- Purnell Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, and Quanis Phillips, 28, of Atlanta. See what Vick's former co-defendants admitted »


Peace and Phillips pleaded guilty Friday. A third man, Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton, Virginia, pleaded guilty July 30.

In the court documents, Peace and Phillips said that the money behind the Bad Newz Kennels dogfighting operation came "almost exclusively" from Vick, and they told prosecutors that other accusations in the 18-page indictment are true.

Tell that to Rae Carruth.

[MadScientist]

White also said he didn't understand the uproar over dogfighting, when hunting deer and other animals is perfectly acceptable

Not sure what kind of credibility one can expect to have when making idiotic statements like this one.

Either he thinks that there is a natural over population of pit bulls and that letting people watch them rip each other to shreds is more humane than letting them starve or get hit by cars, or this White joker is into dog fighting.

I'm guessing he is just another dog fighting loving piece of human filth.

[Partial]

White also said he didn't understand the uproar over dogfighting, when hunting deer and other animals is perfectly acceptable

Not sure what kind of credibility one can expect to have when making idiotic statements like this one.

Either he thinks that there is a natural over population of pit bulls and that letting people watch them rip each other to shreds is more humane than letting them starve or get hit by cars, or this White joker is into dog fighting.

I'm guessing he is just another dog fighting loving piece of human filth.

That, and we're not hanging or drowning or electrocuting bambi. We're also not making Bambi fight another bambi to the death.

Man, whoever made that claim is dumb!!

[Harlan Huckleby]

Sharpton and Jackson will be in on this before it's over.

Nah. Its pretty plain that Vick is very guilty of SOMETHING connected to dog fighting. He's radioactive. I'm sorry that the case didn't go to trial, both justice and the public would have been better served by hearing all the details, and of course hearing Vick's side of the story.

With the OJ trial, they had the LA Police (with its checkered history) to make into the boogie man. No such escape hatch here. I think the prosecution was heavy handed, but that's a debatable argument that puts people to sleep.

[Patler]

I think the prosecution was heavy handed, but that's a debatable argument that puts people to sleep.

You're right, it is debatable. I think they were just honest with him. (Are you surprised?) It's not heavy handed if they were telling him the truth.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It's not heavy handed if they were telling him the truth.

truth got nothing to do with it. sure, the prosecution was truthful and straightforward. the contention is that the prosecution followed the letter rather than spirit/intent of law, effectively denied VIck a full hearing on the dogfighting charges.

[Rastak]

It's not heavy handed if they were telling him the truth.

truth got nothing to do with it. sure, the prosecution was truthful and straightforward. the contention is that the prosecution followed the letter rather than spirit/intent of law, effectively denied VIck a full hearing on the dogfighting charges.


Bullshit. Plain and simple. He plead guilty because he is and they got his ugly evil ass dead to rights. THAT'S why he isn't going to trial.


He wasn't denied a damn thing...maybe continuing his illegal enterprise. That's about all he was denied.

[Kiwon]

Marbury defends Vick, calls dogfighting a sport

NEW YORK (AP) — New York Knicks guard Stephon Marbury defended Michael Vick, calling dogfighting a sport and comparing it to hunting.
Marbury spoke Monday about the federal dogfighting conspiracy charges against Vick while promoting his basketball shoe in Albany, N.Y.

"I think it's tough," Marbury said, according to Albany TV station Capital News 9. "I think, you know, we don't say anything about people who shoot deer or shoot other animals. You know, from what I hear, dogfighting is a sport. It's just behind closed doors."

On Monday, Vick said through a lawyer that he will plead guilty to a federal charge of conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and conspiracy to sponsor a dog in an animal-fighting venture. He also faces possible prosecution in Virginia.

"I think it's tough that we build Michael Vick up and then we break him down," Marbury said. "I think he's one of the superb athletes, and he's a good human being. I just think that he fell into a bad situation."

[GBRulz]

Add another idiot to the list of comparing this to hunting.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Bullshit. Plain and simple. He plead guilty because he is and they got his ugly evil ass dead to rights. THAT'S why he isn't going to trial.

As a matter of practicality, he didn't plead quilty to dogfighting. He plead "please don't charge me with racketeering."

Ummm, I appreciate why you consider this hairsplitting. Actually, you don't even consider it hairsplittin, you simply refuse to follow my argument!

I know Vick is a bad man. Very bad man. Still shoulda had a trial.

[Harlan Huckleby]

"I think he's one of the superb athletes, and he's a good human being. I just think that he fell into a bad situation."

This is undoubtably the sort of argument Vick would have used in a jury trial. And even tho Rastak says they had him "dead to rights", you never know what dumb-ass verdict a jury will deliver. You can bet there wouldn't have been any dog lovers on that jury.

"Justice" is a funny word. It's a process, not an outcome. OJ got justice, he didn't get what he deserved.

[Rastak]

Bullshit. Plain and simple. He plead guilty because he is and they got his ugly evil ass dead to rights. THAT'S why he isn't going to trial.

As a matter of practicality, he didn't plead quilty to dogfighting. He plead "please don't charge me with racketeering."

Ummm, I appreciate why you consider this hairsplitting. Actually, you don't even consider it hairsplittin, you simply refuse to follow my argument!

I know Vick is a bad man. Very bad man. Still shoulda had a trial.


And when in your conversation with Vick or his attorney did he indicate that was his reason? They had 4 guys lined up to testify BEFORE his co-arseholes flipped. Feds have an 85% conviction rate. In fact, the minute Taylor flipped he had no choice as far as I'm concerned. In fact, it wouldn;t have bothered me at all if they would have finished charging him with all the crimes he commited then brought him to trial then put him away for 10 years. He's a scumbag.

[Rastak]

"I think he's one of the superb athletes, and he's a good human being. I just think that he fell into a bad situation."

This is undoubtably the sort of argument Vick would have used in a jury trial. And even tho Rastak says they had him "dead to rights", you never know what dumb-ass verdict a jury will deliver. You can bet there wouldn't have been any dog lovers on that jury.

"Justice" is a funny word. It's a process, not an outcome. OJ got justice, he didn't get what he deserved.

Nah, he had no shot....maybe 1% chance a total moron hung the jury. I do concede that's possible but extremely unlikely.

[MJZiggy]

Bullshit. Plain and simple. He plead guilty because he is and they got his ugly evil ass dead to rights. THAT'S why he isn't going to trial.

As a matter of practicality, he didn't plead quilty to dogfighting. He plead "please don't charge me with racketeering."

Ummm, I appreciate why you consider this hairsplitting. Actually, you don't even consider it hairsplittin, you simply refuse to follow my argument!

I know Vick is a bad man. Very bad man. Still shoulda had a trial.

Maybe he plead "please don't charge me with racketeering" because he was guilty of racketeering... :idea:

[Harlan Huckleby]

They had 4 guys lined up to testify BEFORE his co-arseholes flipped.

I'm confused by these reports. Does a DA take deposition from people and then release it to the press? Or maybe they had public trials!? No to both questions.



Feds have an 85% conviction rate.

WEll, you can bet they didn't see a 85% chance of convicting him on racketeering, or they wouldn't have offered him a plea deal.

A trial on the dogfighting charges would have been a good thing. That plea deal stunk.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Maybe he plead "please don't charge me with racketeering" because he was guilty of racketeering... :idea:

sure, its possible.

Vick saw a chance of being convicted, 26 years in prison was too much to risk.

Prosecution weren't sure they could get a conviction, the charges were a reach. They didn't want to risk it either, so they offered a plea agreement.

BOTH sites are limitting risk in a plea deal.

[Kiwon]

"I think he's one of the superb athletes, and he's a good human being. I just think that he fell into a bad situation."

This is undoubtably the sort of argument Vick would have used in a jury trial. And even tho Rastak says they had him "dead to rights", you never know what dumb-ass verdict a jury will deliver. You can bet there wouldn't have been any dog lovers on that jury.

"Justice" is a funny word. It's a process, not an outcome. OJ got justice, he didn't get what he deserved.

Note to readers: The above quote is Knicks guard Stephon Marbury talking, not me.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Note to readers: The above quote is Knicks guard Stephon Marbury talking, not me.

Sorry Kiwon, I thought about that when I first posted, put the quote marks back in. I figured most people would understand. But then again, if a few thought you were an asshole, I decided I could live with that.

[Bretsky]

It's not heavy handed if they were telling him the truth.

truth got nothing to do with it. sure, the prosecution was truthful and straightforward. the contention is that the prosecution followed the letter rather than spirit/intent of law, effectively denied VIck a full hearing on the dogfighting charges.


Bullshit. Plain and simple. He plead guilty because he is and they got his ugly evil ass dead to rights. THAT'S why he isn't going to trial.


He wasn't denied a damn thing...maybe continuing his illegal enterprise. That's about all he was denied.

:bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap:

[Bretsky]

Marbury defends Vick, calls dogfighting a sport

NEW YORK (AP) — New York Knicks guard Stephon Marbury defended Michael Vick, calling dogfighting a sport and comparing it to hunting.
Marbury spoke Monday about the federal dogfighting conspiracy charges against Vick while promoting his basketball shoe in Albany, N.Y.

"I think it's tough," Marbury said, according to Albany TV station Capital News 9. "I think, you know, we don't say anything about people who shoot deer or shoot other animals. You know, from what I hear, dogfighting is a sport. It's just behind closed doors."

On Monday, Vick said through a lawyer that he will plead guilty to a federal charge of conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and conspiracy to sponsor a dog in an animal-fighting venture. He also faces possible prosecution in Virginia.

"I think it's tough that we build Michael Vick up and then we break him down," Marbury said. "I think he's one of the superb athletes, and he's a good human being. I just think that he fell into a bad situation."


Those who know the quality of individual this guy is should not be surprised

[Bretsky]

Bullshit. Plain and simple. He plead guilty because he is and they got his ugly evil ass dead to rights. THAT'S why he isn't going to trial.

As a matter of practicality, he didn't plead quilty to dogfighting. He plead "please don't charge me with racketeering."

Ummm, I appreciate why you consider this hairsplitting. Actually, you don't even consider it hairsplittin, you simply refuse to follow my argument!

I know Vick is a bad man. Very bad man. Still shoulda had a trial.


And when in your conversation with Vick or his attorney did he indicate that was his reason? They had 4 guys lined up to testify BEFORE his co-arseholes flipped. Feds have an 85% conviction rate. In fact, the minute Taylor flipped he had no choice as far as I'm concerned. In fact, it wouldn;t have bothered me at all if they would have finished charging him with all the crimes he commited then brought him to trial then put him away for 10 years. He's a scumbag.


Completely agree

I wish Vick da Prick and his arrogance would have ended up at a trial.

Then da Feds throw every charge at him they had

We would not have to worry about Vick da Prick back in the NFL again, ever

[Kiwon]

Note to readers: The above quote is Knicks guard Stephon Marbury talking, not me.

Sorry Kiwon, I thought about that when I first posted, put the quote marks back in. I figured most people would understand. But then again, if a few thought you were an asshole, I decided I could live with that.

Thanks, I think....

The thing about an anus is that you can't live without one. At least some might compare me to an important part of the body. :wink:

[Patler]

As a matter of practicality, he didn't plead quilty to dogfighting. He plead "please don't charge me with racketeering."



What he really plead was; "If I admit this, will you please forget all the other things I've done!"

[hoosier]

"Justice" is a funny word. It's a process, not an outcome. OJ got justice, he didn't get what he deserved.

I see your point, but the truth--at least for legal scholars--is even weirder than that. In fact the law doesn't care about justice at all, the equation of law and justice is just a popular misconception. The law's goal is to reach a sound legal ruling that will hold up against appeals. For that same reason, the law imposes limits on introducing new evidence, and after those limits are reached even the appearance of innocence isn't enough to get a conviction overturned.

[MadtownPacker]

As a matter of practicality, he didn't plead quilty to dogfighting. He plead "please don't charge me with racketeering."



What he really plead was; "If I admit this, will you please forget all the other things I've done!"
So you are saying Harlan should actually be mad at michael vick for not riding it out to the finish? That is a good point and I think I agree.

[MJZiggy]

It's ok, there's a whole other trial that could end up happening at the state level for him to find justice in...

[Rastak]

It's ok, there's a whole other trial that could end up happening at the state level for him to find justice in...


Yea, albiet a short trial if he signs a statement monday admitting animal cruelty. Actually, he'll have to plead guilty there too unless he wants to admit lying in the federal guilty plea. I'm guessing these signed statements of fact during a plea are under oath.


Rock

Vick

Hard Place

[Harlan Huckleby]

Free Michael!

[RashanGary]

I'm OK with protecting animal rights. I have a respect for life that extends past human life and I'm OK with law that enforces that belief. At some point, all law is a morality judgement. If someone rapes your wife, should you be able to kill them? That person might be acting on the drive and instinct to reproduce. Who am I to decide right and wrong? I'm not god.

I think most are OK with punishing rape under our law (even though he might be acting on a natural instict to reproduce). I think most would agree that a revenge killing should be punished as well. However, some might say "rape my wife and I have every right, under god, to kill you" We have to make these laws based on morality. At some point there is some subjectivity to it all. That said, I'm OK with punishing killers (even ones that almost seem just) and rapists. The animal life line is a little more gray and I tend to lean toward less laws instead of more but in this case, my morality aligns iwth it being OK with punishing people who torture and kill animals.

Vick breaking the law is the bottom line as far as the way things are set up and enforced. He will be punished according to the standards of that law. However, the arguement of "is the law right" is a little more subjective. I agree with the law and I feel good about Vick being imprisioned and even better about how much he is losing from the NFL. I think he deserves suffering for what he did.

[MJZiggy]

I'm OK with protecting animal rights. I have a respect for life that extends past human life and I'm OK with law that enforces that belief. At some point, all law is a morality judgement. If someone rapes your wife, should you be able to kill them? That person might be acting on the drive and instinct to reproduce. Who am I to decide right and wrong? I'm not god.

I think most are OK with punishing rape under our law (even though he might be acting on a natural instict to reproduce). I think most would agree that a revenge killing should be punished as well. However, some might say "rape my wife and I have every right, under god, to kill you" We have to make these laws based on morality. At some point there is some subjectivity to it all. That said, I'm OK with punishing killers (even ones that almost seem just) and rapists. The animal life line is a little more gray and I tend to lean toward less laws instead of more but in this case, my morality aligns iwth it being OK with punishing people who torture and kill animals.

Vick breaking the law is the bottom line as far as the way things are set up and enforced. He will be punished according to the standards of that law. However, the arguement of "is the law right" is a little more subjective. I agree with the law and I feel good about Vick being imprisioned and even better about how much he is losing from the NFL. I think he deserves suffering for what he did.

You really need to get out of the engineering department and take a class on human psych and motivation...rapists are NOT pressed by the natural instict to reproduce. People who get laid are. Rape is violence, dominance. And maybe it's not the husband, but the wife who deserves to be the one doing the revenge killing??

[RashanGary]

I think the need and drive to reproduce can be twisted and harmfull. I think people need ot be put away where they can't continue the action, but I'm not god. I can't decide what is an animalistic drive to screw and what is just evil. The morality will be judged if there is a god and he has to face him. As far as law goes, I'm happy to be a part of a society that punishes such things because I "THINK" it's wrong and I "WANT" them off the streets and I feel confidnet enough about my opinions and wants to support the law. I'm not entirely sure of my opinions though, it's subjective. Ultimately we have to draw some lines through the gray area and some might be more clear than others but nothing is black and white in the world of right and wrong. Nobody can say what is right and wrong. I'm not even sure right and wrong exist or if we just evolved an extra intellectual sense while being a part of a cycle of life (as I understand it) on some miniscule planet within a never-ending world. Who the hell knows (right now, I'm hoping a god exists becuase not knowing is uncomfortable). The best we can do is construct a society that has laws based on the majority. I'm happy with that. I'm not always the majority but I guesss I just have to go with the flow sometimes.

Some of our culture (seems to be the black culture) is OK with treating dogs like shit. Unfortunately for them, they are not the majority. They are going with the flow right to jail.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Until Michael is free, none of us are truly free.


http://barfblog.foodsafety.ksu.edu/michael_jackson.jpg

[MJZiggy]

I think the need and drive to reproduce can be twisted and harmfull. I think people need ot be put away where they can't continue the action, but I'm not god. I can't decide what is an animalistic drive to screw and what is just evil. The morality will be judged if there is a god and he has to face him. As far as law goes, I'm happy to be a part of a society that punishes such things because I "THINK" it's wrong and I "WANT" them off the streets and I feel confidnet enough about my opinions and wants to support the law. I'm not entirely sure of my opinions though, it's subjective. Ultimately we have to draw some lines through the gray area and some might be more clear than others but nothing is black and white in the world of right and wrong. Nobody can say what is right and wrong. I'm not even sure right and wrong exist or if we just evolved an extra intellectual sense while being a part of a cycle of life (as I understand it). Who the hell knows. The best we can do is construct a society that has laws based on the majority. I'm happy with that. I'm not always the majority but I guesss I just have to go with the flow sometimes.

Some of our culture (seems to be the black culture) is OK with treating dogs like shit. Unfortunately for them, they are not the majority. They are going with the flow right to jail.

Oh, quit getting all existential. If there's one thing that strives not to be subjective it's the law and whether you "want" the law to be doesn't matter--it is and if you break it you go to jail, like if you break the law against dogfighting and interstate gambling...

[RashanGary]

Oh, quit getting all existential. If there's one thing that strives not to be subjective it's the law and whether you "want" the law to be doesn't matter--it is and if you break it you go to jail, like if you break the law against dogfighting and interstate gambling...

haha, talkign about how the law will be enforced has a much more rigid feel to it. He broke the law, he'll be punished in accordance with the sentencing guidelines that go with that law. The real question or contraversy isn't whether or not he will be punished, it's even starting to shift away from whether or not he is guilty as most see guilt within the purview of the crimes he is charged. The only legitimate question now is whether or not the law is right and just. People who may not be able to back up their belief system in a way that is conducive to this debate might say "It's the law, he broke it, he belongs in jail" as if to say "I think he should be in jail and the all powerfull, no mistake law backs me up so I'm right and you are wrong". The root of this conversation lies deeper than whether or not there is a law against it. Also, whether or not a law is in place really has nothing to do with whether it should be except that we might trust the law makers judgement more than our own. I tend to have confidence in my ability to think most things through, so I don't just follow laws like they are somehow gods will and therefor my reasoning has more to do with the roots to why a law might be created instead of stopping at "the law is here"

[Freak Out]

If someone rapes your wife, should you be able to kill them? That person might be acting on the drive and instinct to reproduce. Who am I to decide right and wrong? I'm not god.

I think most are OK with punishing rape under our law (even though he might be acting on a natural instict to reproduce).

WTF? Go back to talking football dude.

[MJZiggy]

I don't trust lawmakers judgment more than my own...if they start passing stupid laws, they hear from me and lose my vote and if they're really stupid, I am vocal in stating that to others who might vote for that person. And if you don't agree with the right or wrong of the law on the books, you can question it, but it's still the law until you do something to get said law changed.

[RashanGary]

He lives in our country and everyone who lives here has no choice but follow the laws that are in place or suffer the concequences if he chooses to break them. Vick broke a law. He's guilty as charged (maybe he could have found a loophole but the prosecution used their own loophole to force him into pleaing guilty). Now he faces the sentences that go along with the crimes he commited and was found guilty of by his own admission. There isn't much to argue.

The only thing left to argue is whether or not the law should be in place and what we want from the governing laws in OUR country. Should dogs be protected under the government? Should peoples lives be protected under the govnernment. Are there religous reasons that make killing OK? Are there revenge reasons that make killing OK like taking out the rapist of your daughter or son (if michael jackson is involved). People generally have a feel for right and wrong. When you break it down, how we got here creation or just by chance matters. If there is a god who sent us here to be good stuards of the land and we construct our laws based on that god then we have the right and obligation to make laws as such. If you don't make your laws based on god then it becomes a little foggy. I don't want government based on god, but how else can you get morals if you don't believe in god or some form of rightous power? Exisitance would be meaningless (in absense of god) and therefor individual life meaningless. Who knows. . . All I'm saying is it's subjective whether or no the law should be around. I like it and want it (the law) but I don't confuse my wants with gods word like some. Some might want anarchy. Some want a state of islamic control. Who's to say who's right or wrong? Not me. I just give my vote of the way I want it and don't confuse the way I want it with the way it should be if that makes any sense.

[MJZiggy]

For the love of pete, the laws, though probably originally based on religion, are based on the concept of protecting the weak from the oppressive and to keep us from harming one another or society as a whole (excepting, of course, the laws predicated on making sure that the government gets theirs) You don't need religion to realize that kids need to be protected from predatory adults and that the elderly need to be protected from abusive caretakers and scam artists. Or that dogs need to be protected from people who drown or hang them if they don't happen to be fierce enough. And remember that in the Federal case, the animal abuse is the least of the charges. They just happen to be the ones that everyone wants to see him go down for because the victim is so obvious.

[BallHawk]

And the saga continues.....

Vick won't admit to gambling or killing dogs

Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick will not admit to killing dogs or gambling on dog fights, as detailed in his indictment, when he enters a guilty plea in a Richmond, Va., federal court Monday, a source close to the case has told ESPN. Instead, the one count of conspiracy that Vick will plead to will admit guilt to the charge of interstate commerce for the purpose of dogfighting.

Vick will admit that he was present when dogs were killed, but will maintain that he did not personally kill any of the dogs.

The allegations of killing dogs and gambling were part of the picture painted by Vick's three co-defendants, all of whom have pleaded guilty.

The source told ESPN that Vick's defense team met with federal attorneys Thursday afternoon to determine the "summary of facts" to which Vick will plead. But the source says Vick maintains that he never killed dogs and never gambled on a dog fight.

Vick, 27, is scheduled to enter his plea agreement Monday and could face up to five years in prison.

Vick's co-defendants said Vick provided virtually all the gambling and operating funds for the Bad Newz Kennels enterprise. Two of them also said Vick participated in executing at least eight underperforming dogs by various means, including drowning and hanging.

[digitaldean]

And the saga continues.....

Vick won't admit to gambling or killing dogs

Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick will not admit to killing dogs or gambling on dog fights, as detailed in his indictment, when he enters a guilty plea in a Richmond, Va., federal court Monday, a source close to the case has told ESPN. Instead, the one count of conspiracy that Vick will plead to will admit guilt to the charge of interstate commerce for the purpose of dogfighting.

Vick will admit that he was present when dogs were killed, but will maintain that he did not personally kill any of the dogs.

The allegations of killing dogs and gambling were part of the picture painted by Vick's three co-defendants, all of whom have pleaded guilty.

The source told ESPN that Vick's defense team met with federal attorneys Thursday afternoon to determine the "summary of facts" to which Vick will plead. But the source says Vick maintains that he never killed dogs and never gambled on a dog fight.

Vick, 27, is scheduled to enter his plea agreement Monday and could face up to five years in prison.

Vick's co-defendants said Vick provided virtually all the gambling and operating funds for the Bad Newz Kennels enterprise. Two of them also said Vick participated in executing at least eight underperforming dogs by various means, including drowning and hanging.

Vick is skating on thin ice if his lawyers think they can juke the feds out of the gambling rap. I can understand why he is not admitting to the gambling, he knows it will snuff out the microscopic chance he has to play. If he admits to being the bankroll for the gambling, the NFL won't let him back in.

Unfortunately, he is deluded to think that he can tell the gov't. what type of plea deal he can have. Looks like he may want to roll the dice and let it go to trial, because the feds aren't going to let him dance out of it.

He severely cut any leverage he had by copping the deal in the first place. Now he flat out looks desperate.

[the_idle_threat]

Free Michael!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jimx29]

Is that the same as "Free Puppies"?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Yes. Michael just needs a good home.

[GBRulz]

If someone rapes your wife, That person might be acting on the drive and instinct to reproduce.

well, since I'm just acting on instinct...may I suggest duct tape for your mouth?

[Rastak]

If someone rapes your wife, That person might be acting on the drive and instinct to reproduce.

well, since I'm just acting on instinct...may I suggest duct tape for your mouth?


This is one of the goofiest things I've ever read.

[MJZiggy]

If someone rapes your wife, That person might be acting on the drive and instinct to reproduce.

well, since I'm just acting on instinct...may I suggest duct tape for your mouth?

That's what I was trying to get at but you said it so much more efficiently...

[Harlan Huckleby]

I can't sit by idly any longer and watch these bitches gang-up on one of the boys.



Ziggy, you hen!

[GBRulz]

I can't sit by idly any longer

Damn fleas :wink:

[GBRulz]

This is one of the goofiest things I've ever read.

Yeah well, I'm usually not still half in the bag at noon the following day, either! Damn Packers, it's all their fault...they MADE me buy those $7 beers!

[Jimx29]

Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy


(CNN) -- NFL star Michael Vick has admitted that he and his co-conspirators killed dogs that did not fight well in papers filed on Friday with a federal court in Virginia.

Vick said he would plead guilty to one count of "Conspiracy to Travel in Interstate Commerce in Aid of Unlawful Activities and to Sponsor a Dog in an Animal Fighting Venture," in a plea agreement filed at the federal district court in Richmond, Virginia.

The charge is punishable by up to five years in prison, a $250,000 fine, "full restitution, a special assessment, and 3 years of supervised release," the plea deal says.

Federal prosecutors agreed to ask for the low end of the sentencing guidelines.

"The defendant will plead guilty because the defendant is in fact guilty of the charged offense," the plea agreement says.

In an additional statement of facts, signed by Vick and filed with the agreement, Vick admitted buying the property that was used for dogfighting but did not bet on the fights or receive any of the money won.

"Most of the 'Bad Newz Kennels'' operations and gambling monies were provided by Vick," the official summary of facts stated. Gambling wins were generally split between co-conspirators Tony Taylor, Quanis Phillips and sometimes Purnell Peace, it continued.

"Vick did not gamble by placing side bets on any of the fights. Vick did not receive any of the proceeds from the purses that were won by 'Bad Newz Kennels.'"

Vick also agreed that "collective efforts" by him and two others caused the deaths of at least six dogs.

In about April of this year, Vick, Peace and Phillips tested some dogs in fighting sessions at Vick's property in Virginia, the statement said. "Peace, Phillips and Vick agreed to the killing of approximately 6-8 dogs that did not perform well in 'testing' sessions at 1915 Moonlight Road and all of those dogs were killed by various methods, including hanging and drowning.

"Vick agrees and stipulates that these dogs all died as a result of the collective efforts of Peace, Phillips and Vick," the summary said.

Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, Virginia; Phillips, 28, of Atlanta; and Taylor, 34, of Hampton, Virginia have already accepted agreements to plead guilty in exchange for reduced sentences.

Vick, 27, is scheduled to appear in federal court in Richmond, Virginia, on Monday, where he is expected to plead guilty before a judge. See a timeline of the case against Vick »

The judge in the case will have the final say over the plea agreement.

The federal case against Vick focused on the interstate conspiracy, but Vick's admission that he was involved in the killing of dogs could lead to local charges, according to CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

"It sometimes happens -- not often -- that the state will follow a federal prosecution by charging its own crimes for exactly the same behavior," Toobin said Friday.

"The risk for Vick is, if he makes admissions in his federal guilty plea, the state of Virginia could say, hey, look, you admitted violating Virginia state law as well. We're going to introduce that against you and charge you in our court."

In the plea deal, Vick agrees to cooperate with investigators and provide all information he may have on any criminal activity and to testify if necessary. Vick also agrees to turn over any documents he has and to submit to polygraph tests.
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After Vick's indictment last month, National Football League Commissioner Roger Goodell ordered the quarterback not to report to the Falcons training camp, and the league is reviewing the case.

Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank told the NFL Network Monday he could not speculate on Vick's future as a Falcon, at least not until he has seen "a statement of facts" in the case.

[Scott Campbell]

If someone rapes your wife, That person might be acting on the drive and instinct to reproduce.

well, since I'm just acting on instinct...may I suggest duct tape for your mouth?

That's what I was trying to get at but you said it so much more efficiently...


I think some of Nick's philosophies are somewhat "oldschool".

http://blogs.knoxnews.com/knx/telebuddy/archives/caveman.jpg

[Freak Out]

If someone rapes your wife, That person might be acting on the drive and instinct to reproduce.

well, since I'm just acting on instinct...may I suggest duct tape for your mouth?

That's what I was trying to get at but you said it so much more efficiently...


I think some of Nick's philosophies are somewhat "oldschool".

http://blogs.knoxnews.com/knx/telebuddy/archives/caveman.jpg

Quest for fire baby!

[woodbuck27]

Vick admits dog killing, conspiracy


(CNN) -- NFL star Michael Vick has admitted that he and his co-conspirators killed dogs that did not fight well in papers filed on Friday with a federal court in Virginia.

Vick said he would plead guilty to one count of "Conspiracy to Travel in Interstate Commerce in Aid of Unlawful Activities and to Sponsor a Dog in an Animal Fighting Venture," in a plea agreement filed at the federal district court in Richmond, Virginia.

The charge is punishable by up to five years in prison, a $250,000 fine, "full restitution, a special assessment, and 3 years of supervised release," the plea deal says.

Federal prosecutors agreed to ask for the low end of the sentencing guidelines.

"The defendant will plead guilty because the defendant is in fact guilty of the charged offense," the plea agreement says.

In an additional statement of facts, signed by Vick and filed with the agreement, Vick admitted buying the property that was used for dogfighting but did not bet on the fights or receive any of the money won.

"Most of the 'Bad Newz Kennels'' operations and gambling monies were provided by Vick," the official summary of facts stated. Gambling wins were generally split between co-conspirators Tony Taylor, Quanis Phillips and sometimes Purnell Peace, it continued.

"Vick did not gamble by placing side bets on any of the fights. Vick did not receive any of the proceeds from the purses that were won by 'Bad Newz Kennels.'"

Vick also agreed that "collective efforts" by him and two others caused the deaths of at least six dogs.

In about April of this year, Vick, Peace and Phillips tested some dogs in fighting sessions at Vick's property in Virginia, the statement said. "Peace, Phillips and Vick agreed to the killing of approximately 6-8 dogs that did not perform well in 'testing' sessions at 1915 Moonlight Road and all of those dogs were killed by various methods, including hanging and drowning.

"Vick agrees and stipulates that these dogs all died as a result of the collective efforts of Peace, Phillips and Vick," the summary said.

Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, Virginia; Phillips, 28, of Atlanta; and Taylor, 34, of Hampton, Virginia have already accepted agreements to plead guilty in exchange for reduced sentences.

Vick, 27, is scheduled to appear in federal court in Richmond, Virginia, on Monday, where he is expected to plead guilty before a judge. See a timeline of the case against Vick »

The judge in the case will have the final say over the plea agreement.

The federal case against Vick focused on the interstate conspiracy, but Vick's admission that he was involved in the killing of dogs could lead to local charges, according to CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

"It sometimes happens -- not often -- that the state will follow a federal prosecution by charging its own crimes for exactly the same behavior," Toobin said Friday.

"The risk for Vick is, if he makes admissions in his federal guilty plea, the state of Virginia could say, hey, look, you admitted violating Virginia state law as well. We're going to introduce that against you and charge you in our court."

In the plea deal, Vick agrees to cooperate with investigators and provide all information he may have on any criminal activity and to testify if necessary. Vick also agrees to turn over any documents he has and to submit to polygraph tests.
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After Vick's indictment last month, National Football League Commissioner Roger Goodell ordered the quarterback not to report to the Falcons training camp, and the league is reviewing the case.

Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank told the NFL Network Monday he could not speculate on Vick's future as a Falcon, at least not until he has seen "a statement of facts" in the case.

Fr. PFT

POSTED 1:48 p.m. EDT, August 24, 2007

VICK ADMITS EVERYTHING

We've reviewed in detail the plea agreement signed by Michael Vick on Thursday, along with the statement of facts.

Notwithstanding the anonymous source who told the anonymous reporter at ESPN that Vick would not admit to killing dogs or to gambling, Vick admits to everything.

In paragraph 1, Vick pleads guilty to conspiracy to establish, maintain, etc. an interstate gambling enterprise and conspiracy to engage in interstate dog fighting.

In paragraph 2, Vick admits that the Surry County property to which he initially said he never goes was the main staging area for housing and training pit bulls for fighting.

In paragraph 3, Vick admits to being involved in dog fights at the Surry County property, and to participating in dog fights in other states.

In paragraph 4, Vick admits that the enterprise involved gambling activities in violation of Virginia law. Vick denies that he placed side bets on any fights, or that he received process from the purses. (However, he admits that he was the primary source of funds for the operation. If the winnings went only to his co-defendants, then that's less money Vick had to give them to get them to continue to tend to the operation while he was "at work" for the Atlanta Falcons.)

In paragraph 9, Vick admits that he began acquiring dogs for the operation in "2001-2002," and that the "Bad Newz Kennels" were established in 2002.

In paragraph 12, Vick admits that he knew the other defendants "killed a number of dogs" that did not perform well in testing sessions in 2002. Vick denies killing any dogs at that time.

In paragraph 32, Vick admits that in April 2007 -- the same month in which he say face-to-face with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and denied that dog fighting was occurring on his land -- he agreed with Purnell Peace and Quanis Phillips to kill six-to-eight dogs that did not perform well in testing sessions. Here's the key passage:

"[A]ll of those dogs were killed by various methods, including hanging and drowning. VICK agrees and stipulates that these dogs all died as a result of the collective efforts of PEACE, PHILLIPS, and VICK."

Case closed. He admits to gambling, and he admits to killing dogs.

Someone at ESPN has some serious explaining to do.

[Kiwon]

The above headline, "VICK ADMITS EVERYTHING" is dramatic but inaccurate. He did not admit everything.

He admitted just enough to satisfy the requirements of the plea deal and LEFT OUT the specific details that would do the most long-term damage to his reputation. He admits to collective guilt (with the others) in the killing of dogs but does not admit to killing any dogs individually. We don't know exactly what his role was and so are left with a "he said/she said" situation.

If the judge doesn't make him confess in detail, it will end up the co-defendants' accounts versus what Vick says. Obviously, Vick is trying to salvage what's left of his reputation and increase his chances of returning back to football and the public limelight.

I understand what his lawyers and handlers are doing but I hope the judge will not accept anything other than the full details of the actions of each defendant. In this case, the public wants to know the exact truth.

Otherwise, we will have to settle for what comes out in a "tell-all" book that one of the co-defendants will eventually publish. It that case, however, the details about Vick will be just heresay and not legal fact.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/vick-summary-of-facts-070824.pdf

[Rastak]

The above headline, "VICK ADMITS EVERYTHING" is dramatic but inaccurate. He did not admit everything.

He admitted just enough to satisfy the requirements of the plea deal and LEFT OUT the specific details that would do the most long-term damage to his reputation. He admits to collective guilt (with the others) in the killing of dogs but does not admit to killing any dogs individually. We don't know exactly what his role was and so are left with a "he said/she said" situation.

If the judge doesn't make him confess in detail, it will end up the co-defendants' accounts versus what Vick says. Obviously, Vick is trying to salvage what's left of his reputation and increase his chances of returning back to football and the public limelight.

I understand what his lawyers and handlers are doing but I hope the judge will not accept anything other than the full details of the actions of each defendant. In this case, the public wants to know the exact truth.

Otherwise, we will have to settle for what comes out in a "tell-all" book that one of the co-defendants will eventually publish. It that case, however, the details about Vick will be just heresay and not legal fact.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/vick-summary-of-facts-070824.pdf

He admitted the killing of eight dogs was a collective effort of the three of them. He claims he never made side bets but admits to putting up the money to bet on his dogs. Vick is trying to split hairs but it isn't working. He admits in writing to killing dogs and gambling.

There is one interesting thing in there though. He has agreed to provide information on other dog fighting rings....now if he produces enough evidence for other charges on other people he really might escape with less than a year in the can. Per some attorney on ESPN radio, that sort of information is the only thing that might get him leniency.

[Kiwon]

NFL suspends Vick indefinitely after plea agreement made


By Gary Mihoces, USA TODAY

In an agreement on a guilty plea filed Friday in federal court in Richmond, Va., Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick acknowledged participation in a dogfighting ring that matched pit bulls in combat — and sometimes executed those that didn't measure up.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell reacted swiftly to the news of Vick's plea, suspending the Atlanta Falcons quarterback indefinitely late Friday afternoon. On July 23 Goodell had ordered Vick not to attend Falcons training camp.

[Rastak]

ESPN:


NEW YORK -- The NFL has suspended Michael Vick indefinitely.


On Friday, Vick filed his plea agreement in federal court admitting to conspiracy in a dogfighting ring and agreeing that the enterprise included killing pit bulls and gambling. He denied making side bets on the fights, but admitted to bankrolling them.

Friday afternoon, a letter to Vick from NFL commissioner Roger Goodell said, in part:

"Your admitted conduct was not only illegal, but also cruel and reprehensible. Your team, the NFL, and NFL fans have all been hurt by your actions."

"Your plea agreement and the plea agreements of your co-defendants also demonstrate your significant involvement in illegal gambling. Even if you personally did not place bets, as you contend, your actions in funding the betting and your association with illegal gambling both violate the terms of your NFL Player Contract and expose you to corrupting influences in derogation of one of the most fundamental responsibilities of an NFL player."

"You have engaged in conduct detrimental to the welfare of the NFL and have violated the league's Personal Conduct Policy."

"I will review the status of your suspension following the conclusion of the legal proceedings. As part of that review, I will take into account a number of factors, including the resolution of any other charges that may be brought against you, whether in Surry County, Virginia, or other jurisdictions, your conduct going forward, the specifics of the sentence imposed by Judge Hudson and any related findings he might make, and the extent to which you are truthful and cooperative with law enforcement and league staff who are investigating these matters."

"I have advised the Falcons that, with my decision today, they are no longer prohibited from acting and are now free to assert any claims or remedies available to them under the Collective Bargaining Agreement or your NFL Player Contract."

[Scott Campbell]

It sure looks like he admits to killing those dogs, which is what the State of VA is talking about charging him with.

[Jimx29]

*waits for the riots and jackson with sharpton to yell foul

[Guiness]

Sweet Jebus, Atlanta must be thinking 'why, why, WHY' about the Schwabb trade.

[Rastak]

Interesting read from ESPN


The plea agreement is 11 pages long, the summary of the facts another 10. But the endgame for Michael Vick can be reduced to one simple goal: Stay out of prison, no matter what the cost.


According to federal documents, Vick will cooperate in full with federal prosecutors to tell them everything he knows. To save his hide, he becomes an informant.

He is, in short, a snitch.

For a moment late Thursday night, when the crawl line across the television screen announced the breaking news that Vick would not admit to killing dogs or gambling on dogfights, it appeared the government's case had fallen apart, that somehow Vick was prepared to stand defiant in defense of his past actions and future.

But that was merely an exercise in language massage. The truth is different, hard and justly unsympathetic.

Vick's admissions in the summary of the facts are purposely murky. Perhaps they are worded to persuade an angry commissioner about to drop the hammer of a major suspension that Vick isn't quite as guilty as he once appeared. (Didn't work, apparently. Roger Goodell suspended him indefinitely later on Friday.) Maybe they are intended to create an additional shade of doubt in those die-hard fans who don't want to believe Vick is the sort of man capable of electrocuting, drowning and shooting another living creature. Or maybe the words are difficult to understand simply because they were written by lawyers. But do not be fooled: Vick is guilty. He admits to gambling and to being an active participant in the torture and killing of dogs, and no massaging of the words will change that.

Read both documents and the conclusion is obvious: His motivation right now is not to express his innocence of the charges, but to cooperate enough to land on probation, or on house arrest or some lesser form of punishment that will keep him away from a federal penitentiary. Vick likely faces 12-18 months in prison, but ESPN legal analyst Roger Cossack believes it's possible Vick could provide enough information to federal investigators about the illegal, underground world of dogfighting and the people who finance it that he might not go jail at all.

Muddying the truth is a dangerous but effective way of confusing the public; and these days, it is an art form. Barry Bonds saying he did not "knowingly" take steroids has somehow morphed into "it has never been proven that Bonds used steroids."

Vick's legal team attempted to mitigate his involvement in gambling by including in the plea agreement the statement that he didn't make side bets. Yet in Paragraph 4 found on the third page of the summary of the facts, the government states, "Vick agrees that the 'Bad Newz Kennels' business enterprise involved gambling activities in violation of the laws of the Commonwealth of Virginia as set forth in the indictment."

The document goes on to read, "For a particular dog fight, the opponents would establish a purse or wager for the winning side, ranging from the 100's up to the 1,000's of dollars. The purse was contingent and dependent on the uncertain outcome of the dog fight, with the winner taking all of the purse at the conclusion of the fight."

Vick's legal team attempted to use language in the documents that might lessen the impact of his involvement in the killing or torture of the dogs. Page 5 of the summary of the facts offers details of the summer of 2002, when "[Purnell] Peace, [Quanis] Phillips, [Tony] Taylor and Vick 'rolled' or 'tested' additional 'Bad Newz Kennels' dogs by putting the dogs through fighting sessions at 1915 Moonlight Road … Vick was aware that Phillips, Peace, and Taylor killed a number of dogs that did not perform well in testing sessions around this same time period. Vick did not kill any dogs at this time."

And on Page 9, the summary reads, "Peace, Phillips and Vick agreed to the killing of approximately 6-8 dogs that did not perform well in 'testing' sessions at 1915 Moonlight Road and all of those dogs were killed by various methods, including hanging and drowning. Vick agrees and stipulates that these dogs all died as a result of the collective efforts of Peace, Phillips and Vick."

You be the judge.

Vick's signature appears formidably in ink on both official documents.

Anyone still unclear that Vick is desperate to save his skin and not attempting to appeal to his fans that he did not do what he's been accused of should read Page 4, Paragraph 10 (and its subparagraphs) of the plea agreement, the section titled "Defendant's Cooperation":

"The defendant agrees to cooperate fully and truthfully with the United States, and provide all information known to the defendant regarding any criminal activity as requested by the government. In that regard:

"a. The defendant agrees to testify truthfully and completely at any grand juries, trials or other proceedings."

That means Vick will take the witness stand and tell the government about anything it wants to know about what went on at his dogfighting matches, or any other dogfighting matches he attended or even knows about. It means informing on friends, on possible friends, on relatives if they're involved. And if the NFL is really in trouble, it maybe even means informing on other football players.

"b. The defendant agrees to be reasonably available for debriefing and pre-trial conferences as the United States may require.

"c. The defendant agrees to provide all documents, records, writings, or materials of any kind in the defendant's possession or under the defendant's care, custody, or control relating directly or indirectly to all areas of inquiry and investigation."

Which is government-speak for saying that Vick must give up whatever paper trail -- records, e-mails, letters, text messages, the works -- that might lead to his friends.

"d. The defendant agrees that, upon request by the United States, the defendant will voluntarily submit to polygraph examinations to be conducted by a polygraph examiner of the United States' choice."

That's a lie detector, folks.

"e. The defendant agrees that the Statement of Facts is limited to information to support the plea. The defendant will provide more detailed facts relating to this case during ensuing debriefings."

That means prosecutors believe there is more information out there, and Vick is the one who is going to provide it.

"f. The defendant is hereby on notice that the defendant may not violate any federal, state, or local criminal law while cooperating with the government, and that the government will, in its discretion, consider any such violation in evaluating whether to file a motion for a downward departure or reduction of sentence."

Which means he'd better be on his best behavior. No nightclub fights, no DUIs, no anything.

"g. Nothing in this agreement places any obligation on the government to seek the defendant's cooperation or assistance."

That last clause means Vick must volunteer everything he knows.

Later in the agreement, in Paragraph 14 starting on Page 6, the government stipulates that any violation by Vick of any portion of his plea agreement could result in the government placing the full weight of the law on him.

Still, for all the emotion and anger, for all of the societal hot buttons this case has pressed at once -- race, class, privilege, the debate about cruelty to animals versus the value of human life -- this conclusion feels unsatisfying. Here is the saga of a man who financed and oversaw an inhumane operation, who was party to all of its graphic brutality and who to date has not shown an ounce of remorse. The fact that he still has a chance to avoid jail seems incongruous, even unfair, especially in a world where it appears that hard time seems to exist only for the guilty poor, the average or the unconnected.

But the government's case isn't about vengeance. It's about justice and investigating illegal activity. Should the government decide that Vick is of best use if he testifies against other dogfighters and explains the depths of a deadly business enterprise that should not exist -- instead of being behind bars himself -- that, and not the satisfaction that the guilty serve time, will have to be enough.

[RashanGary]

I just heard on Fox 11 that the Goodell has given the Falcons the OK to start the process of recuperating Vicks signing bonus. They obviousy don't have to pay him further, but taking back what Vick has already gotten is a big punch in Vicks sack.

I can't believe how bad it got for Vick. Depending on how much they get back, Vick could go from SUPER rich, SUPER star to imprisoned and broke if he spent a lot of it and they take a big portion back.

[MJZiggy]

*waits for the riots and jackson with sharpton to yell foul
Jackson may try that, but Sharpton's already publicly condemned him. It would take some serious backpedaling to try and switch loyalties now. Evidently Al's an animal lover...

[GrnBay007]

I just heard on Fox 11 that the Goodell has given the Falcons the OK to start the process of recuperating Vicks signing bonus. They obviousy don't have to pay him further, but taking back what Vick has already gotten is a big punch in Vicks sack.

I can't believe how bad it got for Vick. Depending on how much they get back, Vick could go from SUPER rich, SUPER star to imprisoned and broke if he spent a lot of it and they take a big portion back.

Goes to show you how 1 bad decision can change your life....forever.

We need to move on........concern ourselves with our beloved Packers rather than this sleeze.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I can't believe how bad it got for Vick. Depending on how much they get back, Vick could go from SUPER rich, SUPER star to imprisoned and broke if he spent a lot of it and they take a big portion back.

things will look different when he gets out of prison.

He'll get another chance, even if everybody isn't ready to give it to him. That's when you'll hear from black leaders.

[RashanGary]

He'll be a 29 year old RB who was out of the NFL for two years. I can't see him being a dominate player. He might play again, but he'll never be the star he was or make the money he was making.

He was so filled with power at one point. His whole personality was larger than life and dominate. When you saw the powerfull Vick of a couple months ago and then saw the scared, sick looking Vick that was attending court you can just see in his body language how far he's fallen. His life is completely out of his control right now and he knows it.

Vicks life got worse than I ever imagined it. The NFL is doing everything they can to take Michael Vick down. He has nobody in his corner except whatever his remaining money can afford. It's over for him HH. He might have a few dollars to live on, but the powerfull icon is gone forever IMO.

[Harlan Huckleby]

He has nobody in his corner except whatever his remaining money can afford. It's over for him HH. He might have a few dollars to live on, but the powerfull icon is gone forever IMO.

Oh hell. Listen, Sonny, "over" is brain cancer.

When Vick gets out of prison, there will be a large community of people wanting to embrace him and wish him well. People love a good comeback of a fallen soul. He is gonna suffer in many ways, and one hopes it changes him.

It was "over" for Dick Nixon back in '64, too.

Or as John Belushi once said, " Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell No!"

[GrnBay007]

When you saw the powerfull Vick of a couple months ago and then saw the scared, sick looking Vick that was attending court you can just see in his body language how far he's fallen.

I haven't seen any difference in his appearance/demeanor. He's putting on a good face for his homies. He'll find a way to make his way in the YAP (Years after prison)..I'm sure he has plenty of "contacts" that didn't go down. May not be football, but he will survive.

[RashanGary]

Yeah, he can come out and have a happy life but the superstar, super wealthy, powerfull Vick is gone. I'll be happy for him if he as some success and get's it together. I might even pull for him but the reality is, he pissed away a gift and now he'll have to find happiness in "security wealth mixed with joy" instead of in the "power wealth mixed with joy"

For some reason I dont' think prison is going to do Vick any good but I hope it does.

[GrnBay007]

When Vick gets out of prison, there will be a large community of people wanting to embrace him and wish him well. People love a good comeback of a fallen soul.

Have you started the petition? :wink:

[RashanGary]

I thought he looked scared. I can't explain it, but he looked very sober and aware of what was in front of him. He was trying to act proud and collected but I saw anxiety and a sense of losing control.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Hah! I'm just picturing Michael Vick making the TV talk show circuit. Tavis Smiley. The View - hugging Joy Behar. You laugh! It's comin.

007, I'm not positive you won't shed a tear for the New Michael someday.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Yeah, he can come out and have a happy life but the superstar, super wealthy, powerfull Vick is gone.

Ya, that's almost certainly true.

Vick seems stupid and uncharming. I don't want to exaggerate his great comeback.

I don't blame anybody who never forgives him. Some will, tho.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I saw anxiety and a sense of losing control.

sounds like he peed his pants.

I sure don't hold THAT against him.

[RashanGary]

Ya, that's almost certainly true.

Vick seems stupid and uncharming. I don't want to exaggerate his great comeback.



:lol: :cry: :lol:

[GrnBay007]

007, I'm not positive you won't shed a tear for the New Michael someday.

Don't count on it HH. If he's one of the few that changes his life after his criminal behavior and poor decisions, I will be happy for him and support him...if it appears sincere.

You know, if Vick had admitted to everything from day one and said he made some poor decisions based on the negative peers he had then the public would most likely be viewing this whole thing a LITTLE differently. He lied, and lied and denied and denied. Once you go down that road people are more likely to say F You!!

[Harlan Huckleby]

He lied, and lied and denied and denied.

From your intensity, sounds like you might have had a similar experience in your own life. Sorry, no need to comment.

[GrnBay007]

He lied, and lied and denied and denied.

From your intensity, sounds like you might have had a similar experience in your own life. Sorry, no need to comment.

LOL intensity? u silly pup. The Liee always wins, while the Liar always loses. Life lesson 101. :P

[the_idle_threat]

He lied, and lied and denied and denied.

From your intensity, sounds like you might have had a similar experience in your own life. Sorry, no need to comment.

LOL intensity? u silly pup. The Liee always wins, while the Liar always loses. Life lesson 101. :P

I think a lot of times both parties lose. Maybe even most of the time.

[Scott Campbell]

It was "over" for Dick Nixon back in '64, too.




So we should root for a Vick comeback so he can later be impeached?

[Scott Campbell]

You know, if Vick had admitted to everything from day one and said he made some poor decisions based on the negative peers he had then the public would most likely be viewing this whole thing a LITTLE differently.


I dunno. He sadistically tortured and killed animals that weren't good enough killers. IMO, you can't just say your sorry and get a pass. This was truly evil, not just naughty or bad. The lies were the far lesser of two evils - again, IMO.

[falco]

You know, if Vick had admitted to everything from day one and said he made some poor decisions based on the negative peers he had then the public would most likely be viewing this whole thing a LITTLE differently.


I dunno. He sadistically tortured and killed animals that weren't good enough killers. IMO, you can't just say your sorry and get a pass. This was truly evil, not just naughty or bad. The lies were the far lesser of two evils - again, IMO.

I agree. But I think it would have helped his case to go to his owner and the commissioner and tell them everything right away. It may not have made a difference, but I think by alienating them he closed off any chance of their help.

[Rastak]

You know, if Vick had admitted to everything from day one and said he made some poor decisions based on the negative peers he had then the public would most likely be viewing this whole thing a LITTLE differently.


I dunno. He sadistically tortured and killed animals that weren't good enough killers. IMO, you can't just say your sorry and get a pass. This was truly evil, not just naughty or bad. The lies were the far lesser of two evils - again, IMO.

I agree with Scott.....the one thing you'll never be given a free pass on with the public is messing with kids or dogs. People rarely forgive on that.

Plus, Vick isn't most charismatic fellow. AND he was doing this shit for 5 years and probably would have the rest of his damn life if he hadn't been caught.

[GrnBay007]

LOL hold up.....


http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/images/smilies/2007/party-smiley-004.gif
before you http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/images/smilies/hanged.gif I said a LITTLE differently........nothing about a free pass.

[Scott Campbell]

LOL hold up.....


http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/images/smilies/2007/party-smiley-004.gif
before you http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/images/smilies/hanged.gif I said a LITTLE differently........nothing about a free pass.



I understood. I'm just saying I wouldn't see it ANY differently.

[Rastak]

From AJC: OUCH! And all true......



PRO FOOTBALL: The coward who can't come clean

By Jeff Schultz
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 08/25/07

A coward to the end.

He won't directly say he killed dogs. He will admit to heading a group of degenerates when dogs were killed. Does somebody award points for semantics? "Ookie" tells "T" or "Q" or "P-Funk" to "Drown the dog," but he keeps his hands in his pockets. Is this the Vito Corleone defense?
A coward to the end.

He won't admit to gambling on dogfights. But he'll admit to funding an illegal business enterprise that gambles. Well, that should appease NFL commissioner Roger Goodell. Because I'm sure if "Bad Newz Kennels" ever accumulated significant gambling debts, a bookie would pressure "T" or "Q" or "P Funk" —- not the NFL player with the $130 million contract who gave the money to "T" or "Q" or "P-Funk."

How does this happen? How can somebody we admired for his courage on the field turn into such an invertebrate off it?

He runs in games. Did he have to run in the real world? Is it that difficult to admit guilt and say, "It's my fault. Everything."

We are, by nature, forgiving. We embrace the comeback. We want people to overcome obstacles, shed their baggage, become whole again.

This we shouldn't forgive. First, we need to see remorse. Michael Vick hides behind attorneys like an offensive line. If only he had hid that well as a Falcons quarterback, he never would've been sacked.

He doesn't care about the truth. He cares about exact wording in legal PDFs.

He doesn't care about accepting responsibility. He cares about limiting blame.

If he feels anything, he doesn't show it. It's only obvious that he's sorry he got caught. That doesn't count. That's pathetic. He's pathetic. Vick doesn't need a 12-step program for healing. He needs a conscience.
When will he realize that he did something wrong? When he's lying in a cell, wide awake at 2 a.m.? When he's scrubbing a floor or washing dishes for 12 cents an hour? Maybe while he's under house arrest, walking around with an ankle bracelet?

Try avoiding the rush with that, big guy. There's your new Michael Vick Experience.

This is not how people with character defects should begin rehabilitation. This is not how to repair an image or damaged career aspirations.

Come clean on everything. Express sorrow, contrition —- then we'll talk.

Vick did what cowards do. He not only hid behind some legalese, he agreed to cooperate with the government in turning in others. Maybe you view that as being a team player. But there's another view: There goes the street cred.

Page 5 of the plea agreement reads: "The defendant agrees to cooperate fully and truthfully with the United States, and provide all information known to the defendant regarding any criminal activity as requested by the government." It states this includes testimony at grand juries and trials. Vick also must submit to a polygraph test at the whim of the government.

Nobody agrees to such mandates unless they're backed to the edge of a cliff, with the cavalry approaching. So why not just come completely clean? At least he would look like he cared.

I can't imagine the hundreds of thousands of dollars Vick will have paid attorneys when this is over. I hope the verbiage was worth it.

We knew he struggled to read defenses. Turns out he can't read an offense, either. The story broke in April in Surry County, Va. Vick's reaction: "I'm never at the house. I left the house with my family members and my cousin. They just haven't been doing the right thing. ... It's unfortunate I have to take the heat behind it."

He thought it would go away, of course, like a disappearing water bottle incident. He goofed. Had he settled things with Virginia authorities, maybe the "United States vs. Michael Vick, a/k/a 'Ookie' " never happens.

Then officials dug up the yard at 1915 Moonlight Road. They found dog corpses. Vick still thought, "I can't be tied to this." The lying continued. Vick's fan base screamed racism or warnings about the Duke case revisited.

Then it fell apart. "T" and "Q" and "P-Funk" rolled on him. Suddenly, Vick was the last man standing. The last coward standing.

Maybe one day he'll step to a microphone and express remorse. But we're past the point of trust. Repentance needs to be wired to a polygraph.

jschultz@ajc.com

[GrnBay007]

You can all thank TROY for bringing down Vick.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/sports.aol.com/fanhouse/media/2007/08/troydog.jpg
(Troy's look-a-like)


How a Police Dog, Troy the Dutch Shepherd, Led to Michael Vick's Downfall


One of the aspects of the Michael Vick dog fighting investigation that hasn't gotten much attention is how it all started. So let's explain: It all started with a dog named Troy.

Troy is a Dutch shepherd (that's a Dutch shepherd in the photo, but it's not Troy) who joined the police department in Hampton, Va., last year. During a patrol outside a Hampton nightclub in April, Troy alerted his handler that he smelled drugs in the trunk of a car. Police found marijuana in the car, which turned out to belong to Vick's cousin, Davon Boddie.

After arresting Boddie, police got a search warrant for the home address he listed, 1915 Moonlight Road. That was the address of the property Vick owned, and when police searched the property, they discovered 66 live dogs and evidence of dog fighting. Further searches yielded 17 dead dogs and evidence that Vick's claim of "I'm never there" was false.

So it was Troy, out doing his job sniffing for drugs, who put a stop to a dog fighting ring, no doubt saving the lives of many of his fellow dogs in the process.

[Kiwon]

The writer above echoes what I said yesterday.....Vick's confession as required by the plea deal does not include details about what his specific role was in the dog killings.

Was he physically present when dogs were killed? Whose idea was it to choose the method of killing......drown, electrocute, or hang the animals? Who attached the cables to the dog? Did he personally do it? How long did it take for the dog to die? How many dogs did he personally kill? What was his preferred method? If he drowned a dog, how many minutes did it take for a big, strong pit bull to die? How did they bind the dog to prevent his escape as it struggled to live? Did he ever feel guilt about what he was doing?

Bottom line: There is a big, big difference between "collective guilt" and personally torturing an animal.

Obviously, one reason he DOES NOT want to be specific is because admitting the details means that he will probably have to admit to drug use as well. The original search warrant was linked to drugs and remember his fake bottom water bottle at the airport that had drug residue on it?

If the dog fighting doesn't completely jeopardize his NFL comeback possibilities, the drug use will (not to mention further complicate his legal situation).

Again, hopefully the judge will make all the defendants elaborate specifically about what they did, when they did it, and where. Otherwise, as I mentioned yesterday, we will have to wait for one of these geniuses to write a tell-all book that will then be discredited by the others.

Set out all the facts in a court of law and let's hear the whole story, start to finish.

[Kiwon]

Good story, GrnBay007,............and perfect timing with my post.

The investigation all started with drugs. Troy's a hero.

[Rastak]

The writer above echoes what I said yesterday.....Vick's confession as required by the plea deal does not include details about what his specific role was in the dog killings.

Was he physically present when dogs were killed? Whose idea was it to choose the method of killing......drown, electrocute, or hang the animals? Who attached the cables to the dog? Did he personally do it? How long did it take for the dog to die? How many dogs did he personally kill? What was his preferred method? If he drowned a dog, how many minutes did it take for a big, strong pit bull to die? How did they bind the dog to prevent his escape as it struggled to live? Did he ever feel guilt about what he was doing?

Bottom line: There is a big, big difference between "collective guilt" and personally torturing an animal.

Obviously, one reason he DOES NOT want to be specific is because admitting the details means that he will probably have to admit to drug use as well. The original search warrant was linked to drugs and remember his fake bottom water bottle at the airport that had drug residue on it?

If the dog fighting doesn't completely jeopardize his NFL comeback possibilities, the drug use will (not to mention further complicate his legal situation).

Again, hopefully the judge will make all the defendants elaborate specifically about what they did, when they did it, and where. Otherwise, as I mentioned yesterday, we will have to wait for one of these geniuses to write a tell-all book that will then be discredited by the others.

Set out all the facts in a court of law and let's hear the whole story, start to finish.


I hear ya Kiwon, but if I'm standing there as the 130 million dollar man and say "kill the dog, dogg". I'm the asshole responsible. If he's trying to make it sound like he didn;t do it AND he admits it was a collective effort one can only assume he either killed the dogs or called the shots.

What an asshole.

[Kiwon]

Rastak, people want to know EXACTLY what he did from his own lips. That's a full confession. "Collective guilt" does not cut it.

In human terms, there is a difference between being an accessory to murder and being a murderer.

We all know that he knew what was going on and financially enabled it. But, yes or no, is he the type of man that would personally, physically, sadistically torture a dog to death?

His defenders and the excuse makers need to hear exactly how heinous his actions were.

I hear your assessment, but you are presuming because you weren't there. You can describe the aftermath of what he did but you can't describe with certainty exactly what he did do.

I think the public wants the whole story in detail and the judge should force the truth to come from the man's own mouth on the record.

[Scott Campbell]

Was he physically present when dogs were killed? Whose idea was it to choose the method of killing......drown, electrocute, or hang the animals? Who attached the cables to the dog? Did he personally do it? How long did it take for the dog to die? How many dogs did he personally kill? What was his preferred method? If he drowned a dog, how many minutes did it take for a big, strong pit bull to die? How did they bind the dog to prevent his escape as it struggled to live? Did he ever feel guilt about what he was doing?


I thought I was about as pissed as I could be at Mike Vick - till I read this.

I hope VA nails that prick's ass, and he gets 5 years or more.

[Rastak]

Was he physically present when dogs were killed? Whose idea was it to choose the method of killing......drown, electrocute, or hang the animals? Who attached the cables to the dog? Did he personally do it? How long did it take for the dog to die? How many dogs did he personally kill? What was his preferred method? If he drowned a dog, how many minutes did it take for a big, strong pit bull to die? How did they bind the dog to prevent his escape as it struggled to live? Did he ever feel guilt about what he was doing?


I thought I was about as pissed as I could be at Mike Vick - till I read this.

I hope VA nails that prick's ass, and he gets 5 years or more.


Me too.....I go back and forth from being kinda pissed to extremely outraged. The part that pushed me to outraged was the hanging thing wasn't working so they drowned a couple.


What a fuckhead.

To Kiwon's point, I don't need to know who shoved the dog underwater If they all sat around nodding that this was cool they can rot in prison and then in hell as far as I'm concerned.

[Kiwon]

Well, I want EVERYONE to know what exactly what these men did. Every gory detail.

This is a perfect opportunity to expose dog fighting "as a sport" and to motivate communities to shut it down. The same goes for Michael Vick and the lifestyle he embraced.

By the way, I am a Christian and the Bible says in Proverbs 12:10, "A righteous man has regard for the life of his animal, But even the compassion of the wicked is cruel."

The contempt these men demonstrated for animal life is nauseating. Civilized people don't act this way.

At the same time, I will call out those who consider abortion a personal right and choice. A choice to do what exactly? Describe what happens to a baby in the womb during an abortion. Not WHY it happens, but what actually takes place.

Isn't innocent human life something to defended and considered sacred? How can I as a caring person not feel outrage and sadness in one case and not the other? Maybe others won't get the parallels but I do.

[Rastak]

Well, I want EVERYONE to know what exactly what these men did. Every gory detail.

This is a perfect opportunity to expose dog fighting "as a sport" and to motivate communities to shut it down. The same goes for Michael Vick and the lifestyle he embraced.

By the way, I am a Christian and the Bible says in Proverbs 12:10, "A righteous man has regard for the life of his animal, But even the compassion of the wicked is cruel."

The contempt these men demonstrated for animal life is nauseating. Civilized people don't act this way.

At the same time, I will call out those who consider abortion a personal right and choice. A choice to do what exactly? Describe what happens to a baby in the womb during an abortion. Not WHY it happens, but what actually takes place.

Isn't innocent human life something to defended and considered sacred? How can I as a caring person not feel outrage and sadness in one case and not the other? Maybe others won't get the parallels but I do.


I could debate the abortion thing but it deserves it's own thread. Fire one up in romper room. I can't promise I'll participate because I'm bound to alienate half the board and that isn't productive. Let's keep this to Mr asshole and his merry band of fuckheads.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The contempt these men demonstrated for animal life is nauseating. Civilized people don't act this way.

Well, I agree, but it's a moving target. I think 50 years ago in the U.S. people would dislike killing dogs. But the idea of going to PRISON for it would seem ridiculous.

Some portion of the Hip-Hop community has gotten the idea that dog fighting is OK. And I heard a rumor that Vick is threatening to name-names of many NFL players who attended and/or bet on dog fighting. (Don't know if this is true.)

I hope the Vick case will spread the message that cruelty to animals, including dog fighting, is not OK.

[MJZiggy]

You can all thank TROY for bringing down Vick.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/sports.aol.com/fanhouse/media/2007/08/troydog.jpg
(Troy's look-a-like)


How a Police Dog, Troy the Dutch Shepherd, Led to Michael Vick's Downfall


One of the aspects of the Michael Vick dog fighting investigation that hasn't gotten much attention is how it all started. So let's explain: It all started with a dog named Troy.

Troy is a Dutch shepherd (that's a Dutch shepherd in the photo, but it's not Troy) who joined the police department in Hampton, Va., last year. During a patrol outside a Hampton nightclub in April, Troy alerted his handler that he smelled drugs in the trunk of a car. Police found marijuana in the car, which turned out to belong to Vick's cousin, Davon Boddie.

After arresting Boddie, police got a search warrant for the home address he listed, 1915 Moonlight Road. That was the address of the property Vick owned, and when police searched the property, they discovered 66 live dogs and evidence of dog fighting. Further searches yielded 17 dead dogs and evidence that Vick's claim of "I'm never there" was false.

So it was Troy, out doing his job sniffing for drugs, who put a stop to a dog fighting ring, no doubt saving the lives of many of his fellow dogs in the process.

Great story--Bearman's gonna LOVE it.

[MJZiggy]

I have a question: does the judge HAVE to accept the plea deal as written? I ask because Vick wrote out the deal to indicate that some of the actions were done by others while he kind of oversaw the whole thing while the statements of his co defendants have him right in the middle of the action. I wonder if the judge has the ability to determine why that is...

[Kiwon]

I have a question: does the judge HAVE to accept the plea deal as written? I ask because Vick wrote out the deal to indicate that some of the actions were done by others while he kind of oversaw the whole thing while the statements of his co defendants have him right in the middle of the action. I wonder if the judge has the ability to determine why that is...

I wonder the same thing. I have heard that this is a very fair, but no-nonsense judge. I have to guess that he has some discretion in both accepting the plea deal as presented as well as the terms of sentence.

I want him to make Michael Vick the posterboy for knuckleheads. Through his questions at the plea hearing, I want him to make these men provide detailed accounts of what their specific roles were.

I assume, however, that the testimony these men give could be used against them in state court so I don't know if the threat of a state prosecution would keep him from establishing exactly what the facts are. I sure hope not.

[Kiwon]

The contempt these men demonstrated for animal life is nauseating. Civilized people don't act this way.

Some portion of the Hip-Hop community has gotten the idea that dog fighting is OK.

Drug dealers have used Pit Bulls and Rottweilers for years to guard their drug operations and somehow these types of dogs have become status symbols among the hip-hop crowd. Animal bling-bling if you will.

My prediction is that if Vick doesn't get into football again that he'll get into record producing or something like that. He is always a VIP in the eyes of these folks and his prison record is a resume enhancement for him.

Word, Dogg!

[Rastak]

Great thought here....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/24/AR2007082401044.html



Earlier yesterday, experts said Vick appeared to be splitting legal hairs in his plea agreement to help rehabilitate his public image. "These distinctions have no legal or moral significance whatsoever," said Steven D. Benjamin, a Richmond lawyer and past president of the Virginia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. "Saying that you supplied the money for a gambling enterprise but protesting that you did not yourself gamble is like admitting that you established a brothel but did not personally have sex with anyone."

[GBRulz]

I'm sure you have read about the Vick cards on ebay that have been chewed by someones dog.

http://cgi.ebay.com/LOT-OF-falcons-michael-vick-CARDS-CHEWED-ON-BY-MY-DOG_W0QQitemZ200145651449QQihZ010QQcategoryZ215QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Suddenly now if you do a search, there are like 3 dozen people offering the same thing. chewed cards, chewed jerseys, etc.

[Kiwon]

I'm sure Michael Vick memorabilia collectors are glad about people destroying his merchandise. Less competition in the future.

You have to wonder how valuable "infamous" players stuff will be decades from now.

[falco]

I'm sure Michael Vick memorabilia collectors are glad about people destroying his merchandise. Less competition in the future.

You have to wonder how valuable "infamous" players stuff will be decades from now.

That's what they said about Mossy Cade too. Look how that turned out. I can't sell my jersey for nothing.

[Scott Campbell]

I'm sure Michael Vick memorabilia collectors are glad about people destroying his merchandise. Less competition in the future.

You have to wonder how valuable "infamous" players stuff will be decades from now.


Can I interest you in my Rae Carruth rookie card?

[falco]

Too funny; take a look at the link and read the comments box:

http://sports.wizbangblog.com/2005/01/packer_thug_dies.php

For those who don't want to do the work:


I have a question. We have a jersey of Mossy Cade from when he played in green bay. We picked it up at a rummage sale and had no idea who he was. Can you tell us what is going on with this man now and is this worth anything? We cannot seem to find too much on the internet on him.

Apparently the only demand for that sort of memorabilia is people who don't know any better.

[Kiwon]

I'm sure Michael Vick memorabilia collectors are glad about people destroying his merchandise. Less competition in the future.

You have to wonder how valuable "infamous" players stuff will be decades from now.


Can I interest you in my Rae Carruth rookie card?

Okay, how about a Art Schlichter, Todd Marinovich, Maurice Clarett, and Nate Newton for a Rae Curruth and Chewy rookie card.

[Kiwon]

This thread started one month ago when Vick went to court for the first time to enter his initial "not guilty" plea.

Today, he goes back to court to finalize his "guilty" plea deal.

It's a little hard to believe how much has transpired during the last 30 days.

Today, Michael Vick's name will officially forever be linked to dog fighting and shame. I had thought he might actually get away with it. I'm so glad I'm wrong.

[Rastak]

He still might avoid jail time if he sings loud enough, which would surprise me. I was pretty sure he's get about 16 months in the cooler but the feds are pressing him hard to name everyone he had dealings with.

[Kiwon]

As well they should, but if he "snitches" then he has committed the cardinal sin of the hip-hopsters. His street cred will be destroyed.

I doubt his ego can take losing the street. He'd do better to play the martyr and let others decry how unfairly he was targeted. Total BS, but it's the story that so many want to believe.

That's one reason why I want the judge to undress the guy in court and make him confess everything. Vick should leave the courtroom today without any shed of decency remaining.

He's young enough and, if he's humble, he will recover. But today should be the worse day of his life. The judge should do his part to make sure it is.

[Freak Out]

As well they should, but if he "snitches" then he has committed the cardinal sin of the hip-hopsters. His street cred will be destroyed.

I doubt his ego can take losing the street. He'd do better to play the martyr and let others decry how unfairly he was targeted. Total BS, but it's the story that so many want to believe.

That's one reason why I want the judge to undress the guy in court and make him confess everything. Vick should leave the courtroom today without any shed of decency remaining.

He's young enough and, if he's humble, he will recover. But today should be the worse day of his life. The judge should do his part to make sure it is.

He has or is going to give up some names because he wants to play again and redeem himself in the NFL. He knows how bad he fucked up and that his future is in the NFL not the street.....but he needs to show that he can change. People have gambled in the NFL before and been let back in....but I don't think any of the others have killed their pets as well.
The head shed in the NFL will be given some time to make the decision because he will get shipped up the river for a bit...but whatever they do it is going to piss somebody off.

[Scott Campbell]

His words sound very sincere and heartfelt. :bs:




Vick to be sentenced Dec. 10 after guilty plea

ESPN.com news services

Updated: August 27, 2007, 3:53 PM ET

RICHMOND, Va. -- Michael Vick apologized to the NFL and the Atlanta Falcons on Monday for "using bad judgment and making bad decisions" and vowed to redeem himself after pleading guilty to a dogfighting charge.

In a statement before the media, Vick said he took full responsibility for his actions. He concluded by saying: "I will redeem myself. I have to."

Sentencing was set for Dec. 10 and Vick could be sent to prison for one to five years. Vick was suspended indefinitely by the NFL last week.

"First, I want to apologize, you know, for all the things that -- that I've done and that I have allowed to happen. I want to personally apologize to commissioner Goodell, Arthur Blank, coach Bobby Petrino, my Atlanta Falcons teammates, you know, for our -- for our previous discussions that we had. And I was not honest and forthright in our discussions, and, you know, I was ashamed and totally disappointed in myself to say the least," Vick said.

"I want to apologize to all the young kids out there for my immature acts and, you know, what I did was, what I did was very immature so that means I need to grow up."

Vick said he now has renounced dogfighting and has found religion as a result of the federal charges. "Dogfighting is a terrible thing. I reject it," he said.

"I totally ask for forgiveness and understanding as I move forward to bettering Michael Vick the person, not the football player," Vick said.

"I take full responsibility for my actions … I am totally responsible."

The plea by the suspended quarterback was accepted by U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson, who asked: "Are you entering the plea of guilty to a conspiracy charge because you are in fact guilty?"

Vick replied, "Yes, sir."

Hudson emphasized he is not bound by sentencing guidelines and can impose the maximum sentence of up to five years in prison.

"You're taking your chances here. You'll have to live with whatever decision I make," Hudson said.

In Atlanta, the Falcons said they would not cut Vick immediately because of salary-cap issues. The team intends to pursue the $22 million in bonus money that he already received in a $130 million contract signed in 2004.

"We cannot tell you today that Michael is cut from the team," owner Arthur Blank said.

"Cutting him may feel better emotionally for us and many of our fans but it's not in the long-term best interest of our franchise."

Blank and general manager Rich McKay refused to say that Vick's career in Atlanta was over, though that is likely more a legal issue than an indicator of their future plans.

"We cannot undo what's been done," Blank said. "But we can and will recover from this."

The Falcons will receive a $6 million cap credit for Vick's salary this year since he's been suspended without pay. They are still on the hook for approximately $22 million in prorated bonus obligations spread out over this season and the next two.

ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported that Vick stands to lose approximately $100 million as a result of his conviction.

Baseball Hall of Famer Hank Aaron and former Atlanta Mayor and U.N. Ambassador Andrew Young, both members of the Falcons' board, attended the news conference at Blank's corporate headquarters.

In his written plea filed in federal court Friday, Vick admitted to helping kill six to eight pit bulls and supplying money for gambling on the fights. He said he did not personally place any bets or share in any winnings.

Cutting him may feel better emotionally for us and many of our fans but it's not in the long-term best interest of our franchise.

The NFL suspended him indefinitely and without pay Friday after his plea agreement was filed. Merely associating with gamblers can trigger a lifetime ban under the league's personal conduct policy.

Federal prosecutors recommended 12-18 months in prison for Vick and co-defendants Purnell Peace and Quanis Phillips. Tony Taylor, the first defendant to plead guilty, was not involved in the conspiracy after 2004 and is not as culpable, U.S. Attorney Chuck Rosenberg said in a statement.

"A first-time offender might well receive no jail time for this offense," Rosenberg said. "We thought, however, that the conduct in this conspiracy was heinous, cruel and inhumane."

The case began in late April when authorities conducting a drug investigation of Vick's cousin raided the former Virginia Tech star's rural Surry County property and seized dozens of dogs, some injured, and equipment commonly used in dogfighting.

Vick's plea came hours before the Falcons are scheduled to play an exhibition game at home against the Cincinnati Bengals. This will be the first chance for the team to see what effect Vick's case has on attendance at the Georgia Dome. Vick wears the biggest-selling jersey in team history and is given much credit for the team's 51 consecutive sellouts.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Also, Vick reported that he found Jesus.

[BEARMAN]

But hey, he said threw all this, he has found "JESUS " ! :bs: :bs2: :talk:

[Scott Campbell]

Also, Vick reported that he found Jesus.


But has he renounced Satan?

[MJZiggy]

Also, Vick reported that he found Jesus.

When did Jesus get lost??? Where was he found?

[Scott Campbell]

Also, Vick reported that he found Jesus.

When did Jesus get lost??? Where was he found?


Jesus is the name of Bad Newz Kennel's prized 3 time world champion pit bull. It got loose after the raid at the house, and has been dining on neighborhood dogs and cats ever since.

[MJZiggy]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Kiwon]

Also, Vick reported that he found Jesus.


But has he renounced Satan?

That's too funny! :D :D :D

[GBRulz]

His words sound very sincere and heartfelt. :bs:



They are talking about the PC right now on Larry King Live. The icon you listed above pretty much summed up my thoughts exactly. He sounded rehearsed and totally unremorseful.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Micheal Vick admited to "immature acts" saying he "needed to grow up."

He essentially admited to being a Boy.

He apologized to the children that look up to him as a role model.

He is just another black man going to prison. Some role model.

[Kiwon]

Also, Vick reported that he found Jesus.

I didn't see the news conference.

My question: Was this "Jesus" in the English pronunciation or "Jesus" (Hey-Zeus) in the Spanish pronunciation?

Sorry, Michael, people have a right to be skeptical. Good first step, though.

[Kiwon]

He apologized to the children that look up to him as a role model.

He is just another black man going to prison. Some role model.

Well, it's more than that. He's a talented athlete who can make millions through endorsements, but he screwed up everything for himself. Hero to zero in no time flat.

Black kids do need positive role models and Vick was too immature to recognize what he had. He's made himself "just another black man going to prison" when he should be enjoying success in the NFL.

The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

The only bigger idiots than himself are his defenders that say that they are not his defenders and then scold the public for being upset. Keith Overbite, anyone?

[Deputy Nutz]

His apology speech had me at hello.

[CaliforniaCheez]

His words sound very sincere and heartfelt. :bs:



They are talking about the PC right now on Larry King Live.

Actually, Larry is talking about some television show called the biggest losers. So I guess Vick fits in with the theme.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Well, it's more than that. He's a talented athlete who can make millions through endorsements, but he screwed up everything for himself. Hero to zero in no time flat.

The only bigger idiots than himself are his defenders that say that they are not his defenders and then scold the public for being upset. Keith Overbite, anyone?

Well, sometimes the defenders say it is all racial. Like this guy:

"Da white man makes all da rules, you know what I'm saying, so they make everything the black man does illegal. Ya know no black man wrote or signed the Constitution. That's why things like dogfighting are illegal."

"Da white man is always out to get the black man." It seems to be a catch all in most criminal cases.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think Vick should declare that he IS Jesus. I'm serious. Come to the next press conference in flowing robes, sandals, the works.

How will people react? If he sticks to it, people will think he flipped out from the pressure. Feel sorry for him. And there will even be some followers.

Its not a bad strategy, considering the bleak alternatives. After some medical care, he could get better. And by then people will long since have forgotten about the dogs.

[RashanGary]

There is a racial tie to this whole thing. I feel like there are a bunch of black guys in this country like SAS and Jackson/Sharpton that go around with this black power attitude. I feel like white America just punched them in that sack and it feels good to me even though I know it's two wrongs not making a right.

I could care less about race, but when you get these idiots trying to rub black power in our faces, I just want to see them go down a notch.


You may say it's not racial, but I think it is. Like I said, I feel like I just got in on punching them in the bag and it feels pretty good becuase of how they act.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I could care less about race, but when you get these idiots trying to rub black power in our faces, I just want to see them go down a notch .

I don't think Vick really can be connected to black leaders . OR politics.

I suspect many black people feel miserable about the affair. Dog-fighting was part of a black subculture It's one more bad association that Whites can make with Blacks. Very painful on a personal level. Just sad. But it will pass.

[RashanGary]

Yeah, it's bad. Like I said, I know it's wrong to feel this way but for some reason I get fed up with the race thing to the point where I resent it.

It's not good but there is honestly a part of me that just felt like those big mouths got knocked down a notch with this. I know it's wrong, but it was one of my first feelings with the whole situation.

[RashanGary]

SAS was on 1360 the other day talkign to Hannity's sub and he was saying that Vick isn't a "thug" he said thugs are guys who know how to make it work, guys who know how to survive on the street.

It's like everything black they want to talk up like it's some sort of gift to America. That's not a thug, that's a survivor. He just wants to change everything that is wrong with black culture into something good. This is something about black culture that he can't sugar coat. For some reason, I feel a satisfaction in shutting that guy up. Again, there are probably better ways to deal with it and if I sat here and talked it through I'd probably have a friendlier view but that was one of my first reactions.

Race is an issue. It just is. I don't want it to be and it becomes less so as I learn about the world but in this country, the tension is still high and it gets the worste of me sometimes.

[Iron Mike]

Don't watch this if you're easily offended:

Mike Vick's School For Disobedient Dogs (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/edffdbe5d6)

[Scott Campbell]

Yeah, it's bad. Like I said, I know it's wrong to feel this way but for some reason I get fed up with the race thing to the point where I resent it.


Some are trying to obscure the real issue by playing the race card. I don't buy it. It's a despicable act no matter what color skin the perpertrator possesses.

[Kiwon]

Hey, give credit to Michael Vick on this one.

Even he did not go down that road in his press statement although many of his defenders did.

Can you imagine all the racial crap had this thing gone to trial? The NFL is thrilled to have this thing settled before it inevitably began to split locker rooms with the press baiting the players into making inflammatory statements.

BTW, Keith Overbite and his social commentary segment at halftime has got to go. Football fans watch the game for enjoyment, not to get lectured to.

[Harlan Huckleby]

BTW, Keith Overbite and his social commentary segment at halftime has got to go. Football fans watch the game for enjoyment, not to get lectured to.

Ya, that was embarassingly bad. Out of place.

[Kiwon]

(Sorry, this is already posted elsewhere but I had to revive this thread for historical reasons. We've got the whole discussion of the case in here.)
.................................................. .....................................

Michael Vick sentenced to 23 months in jail

By Gary Mihoces, USA TODAY

RICHMOND, Va. — Saying Michael Vick had not fully accepted responsibility for his role in a dogfighting ring, specifically regarding the killing of dogs that did not perform well, a federal judge Monday sentenced the suspended Atlanta Falcons quarterback to 23 months in prison.

When Vick entered a guilty plea in August, his agreement with prosecutors called for a recommended sentencing guideline of 12-18 months in prison.

However, a pre-sentence report prepared by the U.S. Probation Office included a guideline of 18-24 months, denying Vick an "acceptance of responsibility" credit. While Vick's attorneys argued against that finding in the pre-sentence report, the prosecution agreed with it and recommended in court that Vick be sentenced at the higher end.

"I'm convinced it was not a momentary lapse of judgment on your part. You were a full partner," Judge Henry E. Hudson told Vick, standing before him in a black-and-white striped prison uniform. "I'm not convinced you have fully accepted all of your responsibility for your criminal involvement in this venture."

Vick voluntarily entered prison three weeks ago to get a head start on his anticipated sentence. Federal inmates must serve at least 85% of their sentences. With a "good time" reduction in his sentence of up to 15% plus time served, Vick could be eligible for release in less than 19 months (summer of 2009).

"I have to make better decisions and use better judgment," Vick told the judge before he was sentenced.

Vick, who faced a maximum possible sentence of five years in prison, also apologized to the court, his family and friends.

"I think you have to apologize also to the millions of young people who looked up to you," said the judge.

"Yes, sir," said Vick.

Falcons owner Arthur Blank called the sentencing another step in Vick's "legal journey."

"This is a difficult day for Michael's family and for a lot of us, including many of our players and fans who have been emotionally invested in Michael over the years," Blank said. "We sincerely hope that Michael will use this time to continue to focus his efforts on making positive changes in his life, and we wish him well in that regard."

Vick was suspended without pay by the NFL and lost all his lucrative endorsement deals. The league had no comment Monday on the judge's ruling.

In plea agreements by two other defendants in the case, they said they and Vick had executed dogs that had not performed well in testing, killing some by drowning and hanging.

The judge said Vick had given investigators conflicting statements regarding his role in killings and that the pre-sentence report said that at times he had "either denied involvement in killing the dogs" or "significantly" minimized his role.

Assistant U.S. attorney Michael Gill said, "You cannot shape the truth. You have to lay it out on the table."

Arguing that Vick had accepted responsibility in the case, his lead attorney, Billy Martin, told the judge, "We believe what Mr. Vick was doing was in no way trying to minimize, in no way trying to hide the facts from you."

While free on bond awaiting sentencing, Vick also was placed on partial home confinement after a report by his probation officer that Vick had tested positive for marijuana. The judge said Vick also had given conflicting statements about when he used marijuana, whether it was prior to his guilty plea or the day before the test.

Martin said Vick was "clinically depressed" at the time of the marijuana use. "What he attempted to do was self-medicate," said Martin.

After the sentencing, Martin spoke outside the courthouse.

"Michael has known from the very beginning that there were severe consequences to the bad judgment he used in engaging in dogfighting," said Martin. "He knows that the sentence Judge Hudson gave him today is a direct result of his conduct."

Another of Vick's attorneys, Lawrence Woodward, said the player didn't want anyone feeling sorry for him.

"He just wants a chance to prove himself when all this is over," he said. "But the other thing he said to me, which I also think is important for everyone to know, is that he understood that some of the things he was doing in life and off the field were dangerous, and he told me he feels lucky that he's alive and not hurt and now it's all about the future."

U.S. Attorney Chuck Rosenberg sounded a similar theme.

"This was an efficient, professional, and thorough investigation that well exposed a seamy side of our society," he said in a statement. "I trust Mr. Vick learned important lessons and that his admission of guilt will speed his rehabilitation."

John Goodwin of the Humane Society of the United States called the sentence appropriate.

"People that are involved in this blood sport are on notice. You can throw your life away by being involved in this," he said.

Two co-defendants were sentenced Nov. 30. Purnell Peace, of Virginia Beach, got 18 months. Phillips, of Atlanta, got 21 months. Another co-defendant, Tony Taylor, will be sentenced Friday.

[MadtownPacker]

"Federal inmates must serve at least 85% of their sentences."

I didnt know about this. Looks like vick will be spending next Xmas locked up too. Good :lol: .

[Deputy Nutz]

23 months, I don't know if this is an accurate sentence or not. On one hand he bet on the death and torture of living creatures. On the other hand 23 months, some child molesters don't get 23 months.

[Rastak]

23 months, I don't know if this is an accurate sentence or not. On one hand he bet on the death and torture of living creatures. On the other hand 23 months, some child molesters don't get 23 months.


True, so put child molesters away for longer, don't reduce this scumbags time in the clink.

[MJZiggy]

23 months, I don't know if this is an accurate sentence or not. On one hand he bet on the death and torture of living creatures. On the other hand 23 months, some child molesters don't get 23 months.


True, so put child molesters away for longer, don't reduce this scumbags time in the clink.

Or make it even easier and shoot the child molesters on their way in the door of the prison...(I'm not a big fan of child molesters).

[Kiwon]

.....people's memories are shorter than you think.

This is absolutely true. Cheats, liars, and crooks everywhere know this and count on it. Barry Bonds, anyone?

Vick will play football again somewhere, even possibly in the NFL.....if he cops a deal now.

Prisoners with good behavior typically serve less than half their sentences. On the dog fighting charges alone the max is 6 years. He'll be out in 3 or less pending that he keeps out of trouble in prison.

Written exactly 2 years ago today......... 8-)

This is a big I told you so!!

[Freak Out]

.....people's memories are shorter than you think.

This is absolutely true. Cheats, liars, and crooks everywhere know this and count on it. Barry Bonds, anyone?

Vick will play football again somewhere, even possibly in the NFL.....if he cops a deal now.

Prisoners with good behavior typically serve less than half their sentences. On the dog fighting charges alone the max is 6 years. He'll be out in 3 or less pending that he keeps out of trouble in prison.

Written exactly 2 years ago today......... 8-)

This is a big I told you so!!

I thought we had an oracle rat already? :)

[Kiwon]

.....people's memories are shorter than you think.

This is absolutely true. Cheats, liars, and crooks everywhere know this and count on it. Barry Bonds, anyone?

Vick will play football again somewhere, even possibly in the NFL.....if he cops a deal now.

Prisoners with good behavior typically serve less than half their sentences. On the dog fighting charges alone the max is 6 years. He'll be out in 3 or less pending that he keeps out of trouble in prison.

Written exactly 2 years ago today......... 8-)

This is a big I told you so!!

I thought we had an oracle rat already? :)

I just could not resist. I'm humble..........and I want everyone to know it!

[Rastak]

I say give him the recommended guidelines plus a some for the aggrevating circumstances. Judges words, not mine. He'll get a year and a half for the federal stuff at least and hopefully 2 or 3 for the local stuff. After 5 years of thinking about it in a cell he can then move on to a happy and healthy law abiding life. This is one sick dude and so are his friends. What fun bunch of guys to hang out with.If you think he will serve his entire sentence, you are out of your mind. He spend a year in prison TOPS out of what he is actually sentenced.



I wish the hell I could respond directly to his statement and how it actually played out. I believe his words were "no way in hell".

[KYPack]

Written exactly 2 years ago today......... 8-)

This is a big I told you so!!

I thought we had an oracle rat already? :)[/quote]

I just could not resist. I'm humble..........and I want everyone to know it![/quote]

From the "pat yourself on the back" dept.

Actually, good call, Oh Korean One!

[MOBB DEEP]

There is a racial tie to this whole thing. I feel like there are a bunch of black guys in this country like SAS and Jackson/Sharpton that go around with this black power attitude. I feel like white America just punched them in that sack and it feels good to me even though I know it's two wrongs not making a right.

I could care less about race, but when you get these idiots trying to rub black power in our faces, I just want to see them go down a notch.


You may say it's not racial, but I think it is. Like I said, I feel like I just got in on punching them in the bag and it feels pretty good becuase of how they act.

LOL....thank god for obama

[MOBB DEEP]

Dog-fighting was part of a black subculture It's one more bad association that Whites can make with Blacks.

OMG....according to KYPack its NOT a black thing; he noted that white folk are always on TV getting arrested for dog-fighting in his region of the country...dayum

[MOBB DEEP]

He is just another black man going to prison

sagacious? YEAH RIGHT!