Vick goes to court today....

[Kiwon]

Vick will be in court today and enter a plea.

Supposedly there will be plenty of PETA folks and a smaller group from the Humane Society there to welcome him. I think today will be interesting to see if this story really has captured the public's attention and turn into a media circus as predicted.

I don't get American TV so I don't know. My guess is that it will.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2007-07-26-1219688986_x.htm

[Joemailman]

This issue will be discussed in bars all across the country:

http://media.mcclatchydc.com/smedia/2007/07/25/09/685-072507pett.slideshow_main.prod_affiliate.91.jpg

[Rastak]

Vick will be in court today and enter a plea.

Supposedly there will be plenty of PETA folks and a smaller group from the Humane Society there to welcome him. I think today will be interesting to see if this story really has captured the public's attention and turn into a media circus as predicted.

I don't get American TV so I don't know. My guess is that it will.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2007-07-26-1219688986_x.htm


They are looking at Vick in Arizona now on some pit bullfighting investigation. Dog face Vick is in some serious shit right now.

[Kiwon]

The last four lines of the USA Today article caught my attention...

"In 2004, he signed a 10-year, $130 million deal, then the richest in league history.

The indictment alleges the fights offered purses as high as $26,000, and Vick once paid $23,000 to the owner of two pit bulls that had beaten Bad Newz Kennels dogs.

That owner is one of four cooperating witnesses cited in the document.

Charged along with Vick are Purnell A. Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach; Quanis L. Phillips, 28, of Atlanta; and Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton. They all face up to six years in prison, $350,000 in fines and restitution if convicted of both charges."

Three thoughts:
1. The obvious - Vick was part of this for the enjoyment, not the money. Just his dirty, little competitive hobby.
2. If all four witnesses can implicate Vick, then he's toast. He'll cut a deal if offered.
3. Even if Vick gets the maximum, he'll play football again somewhere - Arena League, Canada, Semi-Pro.

[packinpatland]

The last four lines of the USA Today article caught my attention...

"In 2004, he signed a 10-year, $130 million deal, then the richest in league history.

The indictment alleges the fights offered purses as high as $26,000, and Vick once paid $23,000 to the owner of two pit bulls that had beaten Bad Newz Kennels dogs.

That owner is one of four cooperating witnesses cited in the document.

Charged along with Vick are Purnell A. Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach; Quanis L. Phillips, 28, of Atlanta; and Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton. They all face up to six years in prison, $350,000 in fines and restitution if convicted of both charges."

Three thoughts:
1. The obvious - Vick was part of this for the enjoyment, not the money. Just his dirty, little competitive hobby.
2. If all four witnesses can implicate Vick, then he's toast. He'll cut a deal if offered.
3. Even if Vick gets the maximum, he'll play football again somewhere - Arena League, Canada, Semi-Pro.

I've always thought this. The money that he was betting and investing in dogs, was chump change to what he was capable of earning in the NFL.

Which makes this even more heinous, he was doing it for pleasure and enjoyment.

[packinpatland]

A nine-hour trip for 15 seconds of primetime :roll:


"A trio of supporters from Boston wearing Vick's No. 7 jersey and Atlanta Falcons' hats made the nine-hour trip south to support Vick.

"It was time someone should step up and support him," said Nick Fontecchio, one of the three."

[Joemailman]

The last four lines of the USA Today article caught my attention...

"In 2004, he signed a 10-year, $130 million deal, then the richest in league history.

The indictment alleges the fights offered purses as high as $26,000, and Vick once paid $23,000 to the owner of two pit bulls that had beaten Bad Newz Kennels dogs.

That owner is one of four cooperating witnesses cited in the document.

Charged along with Vick are Purnell A. Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach; Quanis L. Phillips, 28, of Atlanta; and Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton. They all face up to six years in prison, $350,000 in fines and restitution if convicted of both charges."

Three thoughts:
1. The obvious - Vick was part of this for the enjoyment, not the money. Just his dirty, little competitive hobby.
2. If all four witnesses can implicate Vick, then he's toast. He'll cut a deal if offered.
3. Even if Vick gets the maximum, he'll play football again somewhere - Arena League, Canada, Semi-Pro.

I'd be surprised if Vick is offered a plea deal. The Feds will not want to make it appear they are taking it easy on Vick because he is a celebrity. More likely the others will be offered deals to testify against Vick. The fact that the activity was taking place on Vick's property makes it likely that Vick was a ringleader and not just a participant. The next time Vick plays football will probably be in a prison league.

[Kiwon]

I hear ya, Joe, but the NFL, it's owners and powerful friends will probably put a lot of pressure on the prosecutors to offer a deal and get this thing out of the headlines. The NFL is a cash cow for a lot of people and industries. They are very sensitive about anything that will affect their bottom line.

Now, what might be interesting is if Vick can give the Feds someone higher than himself. Who suggested that Vick go into the business and set up Bad Newz Kennels in 2001? Who showed the boy the ropes? You can bet that Vick was a A-list VIP in the dog fighting circles. Who did he rub shoulders with that the Feds might be interested in? They might offer him a deal if he were willing to snitch on some other big fish that was involved in other nefarious activities like drugs, prostitution, or Amway. :)

[Rastak]

I hear ya, Joe, but the NFL, it's owners and powerful friends will probably put a lot of pressure on the prosecutors to offer a deal and get this thing out of the headlines. The NFL is a cash cow for a lot of people and industries. They are very sensitive about anything that will affect their bottom line.

Now, what might be interesting is if Vick can give the Feds someone higher than himself. Who suggested that Vick go into the business and set up Bad Newz Kennels in 2001? Who showed the boy the ropes? You can bet that Vick was a A-list VIP in the dog fighting circles. Who did he rub shoulders with that the Feds might be interested in? They might offer him a deal if he were willing to snitch on some other big fish that was involved in other nefarious activities like drugs, prostitution, or Amway. :)

The feds don't feel pressure. If it were a local prosecution I'd agree, The feds do whatever they want.

[BallHawk]

During ESPNs coverage of the Michael Vick trial, my local cable provider showed a commercial for the vet around here called "The Dog Doctor."

Coincidence? I think not.

[GBRulz]

I hear ya, Joe, but the NFL, it's owners and powerful friends will probably put a lot of pressure on the prosecutors to offer a deal and get this thing out of the headlines. The NFL is a cash cow for a lot of people and industries. They are very sensitive about anything that will affect their bottom line.

I think it is a little too late to keep this out of the headlines. People are already outraged that the NFL hasn't suspended him. In fact, I think some of the sponsors will be pressured by outraged fans to stop advertising during games, etc or people will not buy their product. Vick really put the NFL and the Falcons in a bad situation here. IMO, doing a plea deal is the last thing the Feds will do for Vick.

The dogfighting is one thing, but add the torture of what they did to the losing dogs....that is what puts this over the top. Vick didn't do this to make money, it's a disgusting hobby that shows the true class of character of what he is...a scum-thug

[GBRulz]

http://www.packerpalace.com/blog/PackersPoster-CK.gif

[BallHawk]

Michael Vick is sorry that he won't be able to attend "Spring Training."

We're almost in August. :roll:

[packinpatland]

Michael Vick is sorry that he won't be able to attend "Spring Training."

We're almost in August. :roll:

He said that??? :shock:

[MJZiggy]

In all fairness, I gotta think he's got other pressing matters on his mind at the moment. Hopefully he's thinking obsessively about those matters...

[oregonpackfan]

I was listening to a legal expert who was interviewed on "The Fan" sports station re: Vick's charges.

What surprised me was that legally, Vick faced more serious charges on the gambling part of the dog-fighting. The penalities for the dog-fighting and the cruel disposal of the "Losing" dogs are not as severe as the actual gambling on the fights.

Most of the public has reacted to the dog-fighting and the abusive ways the dogs were treated after the fights. If you asked the "Average citizen" what he(she) thought of Vick's alleged gambling on the dog fights, I bet most would shrug their heads and say, "It's not that big a deal."

[GBRulz]

what a shocker...he plead not guilty. Trial set for Nov.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/26/vick.dogfighting/index.html

RICHMOND, Virginia (CNN) -- Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick pleaded not guilty Thursday to dogfighting charges, and a trial date was set for November after his defense attorney asked a judge for a delay, citing the complexity of the case.


An animal rights activist protests outside the courthouse in Richmond, Virginia, on Thursday.

1 of 2 Attorney Lawrence Woodward, in making the request of U.S. District Judge Henry Hudson, noted that some of the charges against Vick involve activities outside the Eastern District of Virginia and that forensic evidence must be collected.

Under federal guidelines, prosecutors must be ready to go to trial within 70 days. Hudson set Vick's trial date for November 26.

"I take these charges very seriously and look forward to clearing my good name," Vick said through one of his lawyers, Billy Martin. Watch what the delay might mean »

At an earlier bond hearing, U.S. Magistrate Judge Dennis Dohnal allowed Vick to continue his release under certain conditions. He ordered Vick to surrender his passport and dog-breeding license; not travel outside the Eastern District of Virginia without prior approval; and not buy or sell any dogs.

Vick also cannot violate the law -- even traffic laws -- and cannot have contact with his three co-defendants -- Purnell Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, Virginia; Quanis Phillips, 28, of Atlanta, Georgia; and Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton, Virginia.

No cameras were allowed inside the courtroom during the proceedings, which began around 3:30 ET.

Curious spectators, animal rights activists and Vick supporters, who crowded around the courthouse in anticipation of his arrival, erupted into boos and cheers as he approached, wearing a coat and tie and accompanied by U.S. marshals. Vick did not acknowledge the crowd as he entered the building.

After the hearings, Vick left the courthouse to more boos and cheers, including one woman's "We love you, Michael!" He stepped into a white Ford SUV, which quickly drove off.

Moments later, Martin said his client "said in a loud and clear voice that he is not guilty of these allegations."

In his statement, Vick apologized to his mother, family and teammates for the trouble and distraction the case has caused them.

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has told Vick to stay away from the Falcons' training camp while the league finishes its review of the indictment. Goodell also told the Falcons to hold off on any disciplinary action until the review is complete, team owner Arthur Blank said.

Blank called the allegations "very repulsive to all of us," adding, "It's not the young man that I've gotten to know, certainly." But he said he has not asked Vick directly whether the allegations are true.

"I felt that was part of a legal process he needs to go through," Blank said.

Vick and the three associates were indicted by a federal grand jury last week on charges they conspired to organize bloody and vicious dogfights on a piece of property that Vick bought in 2001.

If convicted on both portions of the conspiracy charge, they each could be sentenced to up to six years in prison and fined $350,000, prosecutors said.

According to the federal indictment, dogs that didn't show enough fighting spirit, or that lost matches, were put to death by a variety of methods, including shooting, drowning, hanging and electrocution.

Prosecutors allege that on one occasion earlier this year, Vick participated in the killing of eight dogs.


Vick is one of pro football's highest-profile and highest-paid players, signing a 10-year, $130 million contract with the Falcons in 2004. He was a standout at Virginia Tech and the first player chosen in the 2001 NFL draft.

In addition to his Falcons contract, he also has endorsement deals with several companies -- one of which, shoe giant Nike, has suspended the release of a shoe bearing the quarterback's name. E-mail to a friend

[Kiwon]

I hear ya, Joe, but the NFL, it's owners and powerful friends will probably put a lot of pressure on the prosecutors to offer a deal and get this thing out of the headlines. The NFL is a cash cow for a lot of people and industries. They are very sensitive about anything that will affect their bottom line.

I think it is a little too late to keep this out of the headlines. People are already outraged that the NFL hasn't suspended him. In fact, I think some of the sponsors will be pressured by outraged fans to stop advertising during games, etc or people will not buy their product. Vick really put the NFL and the Falcons in a bad situation here. IMO, doing a plea deal is the last thing the Feds will do for Vick.

It's in the headlines in July. I think the NFL and its political and commercial supporters would do almost anything to get it out of the headlines by September when the season starts.

They've got tickets and merchandise to sell. Cities, hotels, restaurants are counting on NFL fans to come and spend a fortune. Las Vegas and other legal sports betting venues do their biggest business September - January.

The longer this issue hangs around, the greater potential public relations disaster it is for the NFL because these allegations divide people into different camps.

Many fans are animal lovers and view Vick as a murderer. They want him suspended now and in jail as soon as possible. Others, who don't care for pets, see it as his personal business and don't want Vick taken off the field at all. Some even see dog fighting as a legitimate sport. This activity exists for a reason, doesn’t it? I heard one guy on the radio talk about the beauty of this sport and said that his family has been involved in dog fighting for three generations (“The pit bulls are doing what they’ve been bred to do”).

Some are bothered that people care more about animal cruelty than the killing children via abortion. Others are disturbed that people are more upset by this than the lack of support the US troops are receiving in Washington or the ongoing genocide in Darfur.

IMHO, the biggest minefield for the NFL lies with the Player's Union and the players themselves. Most of the players are African-American and the longer this thing goes and the more interviews done, the greater the likelihood that charges of racism and inequity will arise. The media will exacerbate the problem as usual and this thing could get very ugly, very fast.

I already expect that the NFL’s new “Get Tough” policy is already going over like a lead balloon with several players and we will be hearing players griping about it during training camp interviews. The NFL holds the purse strings but the players can use the sports media to their advantage. They can cause a lot of headaches for Goodell and company.

Bottom line, it's in the NFL's best interests to urge the prosecutors to offer a deal and get it over with as quickly as possible. On-going protests by animal rights groups and dissention among the players over Vick’s treatment by the league aren’t pleasant prospects.

Even if Vick gets sentenced to 6 years (the maximum) on the animal cruelty charges, etc., he’ll be out in 3 years if he behaves himself. Will justice had been served? No, not really. But he entered a “not guilty” plea today so I guess he believes he has a chance of beating it.

Now, just imagine the fun if he is found “innocent” after a trial or the case is thrown out on a technicality or something. Won’t that create another public relations dilemma for the NFL?

[Rastak]

More on dog face Vick....ESPN....



RICHMOND, Va. -- The hearings began eight minutes early and finished in less than 25 minutes -- Michael Vick's first taste of the famed "rocket docket" in Richmond, Va. -- and they brought Vick some bad news.


With a team of five lawyers at his side, Vick learned that more charges probably will be added to the array of gruesome federal dogfighting allegations already filed against him. Too, he was told that his two-week jury trial will begin at 9:30 on the morning of Nov. 26.

"That's 9:30 sharp," U.S. District Judge Henry Hudson said, making it clear there will be no unnecessary postponements.

The worse of those two news items for Vick came from Asst. U.S. Attorney Michael Gill, who told Hudson that the federal government will be filing a "superceding indictment" by the end of next month. Although legal experts can disagree on what might come in the new indictment, the federal prosecutors in Richmond typically add charges in superceding indictments. It is unlikely they will eliminate charges.

The message from the government prosecutors to Vick and his three co-defendants (Purnell Peace, Quanis Phillips, and Tony Taylor) was not subtle. Here's the message: We've already charged you with serious crimes. You might want to consider a guilty plea. We are going to file more charges next month. That gives you a few weeks to think about the guilty plea. If you come and talk to us about pleading guilty and testifying for us, there will be no more charges against you. If you do not, the charges and the potential punishment will grow quickly.

Although Vick is unlikely to respond to the pressure in that message, it is possible that one or two of the others could seek a lesser jail sentence, or no jail at all, in return for testifying against Vick.

Each of the other three defendants -- all of whom, like Vick, also pleaded not guilty and were released on bond and given the same trial date as Vick on Thursday -- has retained private counsel separate from Vick's legal team. None of them will use a public defender.

The government's revelation of the possibility of additional charges came in the second of two rapid-fire, staccato hearings conducted at the tempo of a top-of-the line marching band. U.S. Magistrate Judge Demmos Dohnal ran through the federal bail litany in what must have been record time, ordering Vick to give up his licenses for a dog kennel and for the breeding of dogs. Dohnal then released him. Less than five seconds after Dohnal had finished, Hudson walked in and continued the breakneck pace.

If anyone had any doubt that Vick's celebrity might change the court's usual pace, Hudson cleared it up quickly. Lawrence Woodward, one of Vick's lawyers, argued that a speedy trial is not possible under the Richmond rules. There is no way, Woodward said, to be ready for trial on Oct. 4, which is what the rules require. He described the complexity of the charges, the need for forensic analysis of some of the dead dogs, and the multi-state nature of the charges.

Hudson listened and ruled instantly, as he did on every other issue during the hearing.

"Yes," Hudson said, "I will treat this case as complex litigation."

And then he set it for trial on Nov. 26, about eight weeks later than the date required by normal docket rules. Woodward and the rest of Vick's legal team likely were hoping for an eight-month delay rather than an eight-week delay. It was apparent that Hudson is serious about the November date.

Vick and the Atlanta Falcons now know what the quarterback will be doing this fall.

Hudson laid out a schedule for the pre-trial skirmishing that is always a part of a major federal conspiracy prosecution. Vick's lawyers might have an advantage in the speedy pre-trial procedures in that they come equipped with money and staff, so it is likely they'll be able to outwork federal prosecutors who must tend to other cases and won't be able to focus solely on Vick.

In another sign of the quick-step culture of the Richmond courthouse, Hudson told the lawyers he will select a jury in "a half a day." With enormous media coverage expected, coupled with the severity of the charges described in the indictment, two veteran Richmond defense lawyers -- both of whom have histories with Hudson -- thought it would take as much as a week to find 12 jurors who haven't already made up their minds on Vick.

"If Judge Hudson says a half a day, then it will be a half a day," one of them observed after the hearings.

Lester Munson, a Chicago lawyer and journalist who has been reporting on investigative and legal issues in the sports industry for 18 years, is a Senior Writer for ESPN.com.

[Freak Out]

In another sign of the quick-step culture of the Richmond courthouse, Hudson told the lawyers he will select a jury in "a half a day." With enormous media coverage expected, coupled with the severity of the charges described in the indictment, two veteran Richmond defense lawyers -- both of whom have histories with Hudson -- thought it would take as much as a week to find 12 jurors who haven't already made up their minds on Vick.

"If Judge Hudson says a half a day, then it will be a half a day," one of them observed after the hearings.



:lol:

I like the fact that this Judge does not mess around but "half a day" is not very long when court opens at 09:30.

Vick is going to find out who his friends are in this one. He should have stuck to fighting birds.

[Scott Campbell]

3. Even if Vick gets the maximum, he'll play football again somewhere - Arena League, Canada, Semi-Pro.


Or in the Penal League. Or in The Longest Yard III.

[Scott Campbell]

"I take these charges very seriously and look forward to clearing my good name," Vick said........


Good name???

At least he hasn't lost his sence of humor.

[GBRulz]

Did anyone catch the full interview with Drew Carey on Letterman? I just saw a clip where Drew said "If Michael Vick is the QB of the Atlanta Falcons this year, I will never watch an NFL game again" and the whole crowd got up and cheered. I was just wondering what else was talked about besides that comment.

I don't see this case as being swept under the rug through a plea deal. Even after the legal system has ran it's course, there will be more protests to come. Either people claiming racism or people with money get off easy. No matter the outcome, it won't go away immediately.

[MJZiggy]

Racism?? No, no you have that wrong. They classify dogs by BREED.

(btw, like I've posted before, if he wants to play the race card, he shouldn't bother looking to Al Sharpton for help cause he won't find any there)

[Kiwon]

3. Even if Vick gets the maximum, he'll play football again somewhere - Arena League, Canada, Semi-Pro.


Or in the Penal League. Or in The Longest Yard III.

I watched the new "The Longest Yard" last week. Michael Irvin had a major role in that one. Actually, Vick would be perfect for an updated, hard-core version of the film (as a con, of course).

[Kiwon]

Racism?? No, no you have that wrong. They classify dogs by BREED.

(btw, like I've posted before, if he wants to play the race card, he shouldn't bother looking to Al Sharpton for help cause he won't find any there)

MJZ, I respect your opinion but I think that you're underestimating the strength of the racial prism that most African-Americans look through. When a case involves a high profile person like Michael Vick, the reds, yellows, blues, and purples disappear and things become very black and white in a hurry.

Michael Vick won't have to play the race card because there will be plenty of people doing it for him.

Racial divide

By Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports

July 26, 2007

RICHMOND, Va. – The crowded, chaotic sidewalk on Main Street, across from the federal courthouse, was an unlikely location for a lesson on the virtues of the fifth amendment.

But standing behind a throng that wanted a pound of Michael Vick's flesh – people that had just screamed for the Atlanta Falcons quarterback to "burn in hell" and held signs advocating his murder, torture and neutering – was Thomas Smith in work boots and a white t-shirt.

High above his head he held a simple sign with just a single word: "Constitution."

"These folks have convicted a man who hasn't even had a chance to defend himself," said Smith. "They just forget everything about America."

But here was America in full force, full vision, mixing it up while Vick pled not guilty to federal charges pertaining to an alleged dog-fighting ring on property he owned in rural Surry County. And front and center, impossible to ignore, was race.

Like Smith, almost all of the people supporting Vick or holding signs pleading for "due process" and "innocence until proven guilty" were African American.

On the other side was an emotional, angry, passionate anti-Vick group that was overwhelmingly white.

Certainly not every animal rights supporter was screaming for Vick to die. Many were just there to support the cause of caring for animals, ending the barbaric practice of dog fighting and using the massive media presence to benefit good.

But a significant number were focused on Vick. When he emerged from a black SUV and made a slow walk up a ramp and into the courthouse, they pushed toward police barriers and let loose.

"Burn in hell you (expletive) (expletive)," repeatedly screamed
one woman.

"Die like those dogs," shouted another.

Not long after Vick got inside the courthouse – and in a scene that was repeated when he left less than two hours later – the two sides clashed in shouted voices and dueling signs.

White people screaming for justice; black people asking if they still remember everything justice entails.

That a case involving dog fighting can break so quickly along racial lines is a testament to how it bubbles below just about everything in this country. We all wish it wasn't so, including both sides here. No one wanted this. Almost no one even wanted to acknowledge it. But it was there, plain as day in black and white.

"I wouldn't say it's a racial thing," said David Williams, an African American, in a hopeful tone. "It's not racial. But for these animal rights people to take one person and crucify him isn't fair."

The thing is, the "animal rights people" here were an estimated 90 percent white. The pro-Vick/due process crowd was probably 95 percent black.

Obviously, both animal rights advocates and due process proponents come in all colors. And certainly a circus show like this, revved up by a massive media presence, isn't representative of America.

But, then again, I also know what I saw and what I heard.

"They are not going to give the man a chance?" Williams said. "You're innocent until proven guilty. He hasn't even had a trial yet."

There should be two undeniable, 100 percent agreed upon truths concerning this case: First, dog fighting is a barbaric felony and whoever participated in it on Vick's property should get hammered by the justice system.

Second, Vick deserves the right to defend against the charges. The indictment cites four "cooperating witnesses," but presuming each is a dog fighter himself, potentially facing prosecution unless they rolled on Vick, who and how reliable are they?

That said, the U.S. Attorney's office is known for its detail and diligence – this isn't some hack county prosecutor like the Duke lacrosse case. They rarely lose, so the challenge for Vick is serious and significant. But he has the right to fight.

"This is going to be a hard-fought trial," agreed Billy Martin, Vick's attorney.

It may not be any less intense than the scene out on Main Street, where two sides, clearly divided and easily identifiable, both anchored in righteous beliefs and moral causes went at it.

Two black women held a sign declaring: "I support Mike Vick due process." That caused vocal jeering from the protesters, which in turn caused the women to taunt them back by waving the sign at them. Later two men had to be separated by security as their debate descended toward physical confrontation, all as a crowd surrounded shouting in all directions.

And on and on it went on this hot Southern sidewalk.

[Rastak]

Who wants to venture a guess what the plea deal will include?
Certain testimony for the prosecution would be the proper answer.
Now they have 5 guys lined up to point the finger at the arsehole who ran this operation with his bankroll.




Plea hearing for co-defendant of Vick set for Monday
ESPN.com news services

Updated: July 28, 2007, 7:44 AM ET

Vick Co-Defendant to Plead GuiltyRICHMOND, Va. -- One of Michael Vick's co-defendants doesn't want to wait for trial.

Instead, a plea agreement hearing has been scheduled for Tony Taylor at 9 a.m. Monday in the federal dogfighting conspiracy case.

Taylor's hearing was added to U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson's docket Friday, a day after he and the other three defendants pleaded not guilty before the same judge. Vick and the others still are scheduled for trial Nov. 26.

Prosecutors claim Taylor, 34, found the Surry County property purchased by Vick and used it as the site of "Bad Newz Kennels," a dogfighting enterprise. The Hampton man also allegedly helped purchase pit bulls and killed at least two dogs that fared poorly in test fights.


ESPN's Kelly Naqi reported that according to sources, Taylor and Vick used to be close friends, but had a falling out in their relationship about three years ago.


Taylor's lawyer, Stephen Ashton Hudgins of Newport News, did not immediately return a phone message, and federal prosecutors have declined to talk about the case.

An 18-page indictment issued July 17 charged the four men with conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities, and conspiring to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture. The maximum punishment is five years in prison and fines of up to $250,000.

According to the indictment, the dogfighting ring executed underperforming dogs by drowning, hanging and other brutal means. It alleges that the fights offered purses as high as $26,000.

The gruesome details outlined in the indictment have fueled protests and public outrage against Vick, the star quarterback of the Atlanta Falcons. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has banned Vick from the Falcons' training camp while the league investigates.

Charged along with Vick and Taylor are Purnell A. Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, and Quanis L. Phillips, 28, of Atlanta.

All four remain free without bond. When U.S. Magistrate Dennis Dohnal set the conditions for their release Thursday, he commended Taylor for admitting to using illegal drugs despite never being convicted of a drug offense. He ordered periodic drug testing for Taylor.

Peace and Phillips each have drug convictions and were ordered to submit to testing, as well as an electronic monitoring program. Taylor was spared the electronic monitoring.

Neither drug testing nor monitoring were ordered for Vick.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[Kiwon]

If Vick has any brains he will change his plea from "not guilty" to "guilty." I wonder what advice these guys received that makes them think that they will be found not guilty in a jury trial.

Taylor is the first domino. Who's next?

The Feds are probably wanting Vick to rat out some higher ups but snitching is the cardinal sin in the circles he runs in. So does he risk a trial or go down in history as a snitch and throw away his street cred? It's a tough choice for him.

I just hope this thing doesn't turn into O.J. - part 2.

[Scott Campbell]

"These folks have convicted a man who hasn't even had a chance to defend himself," said Smith. "They just forget everything about America."


I support due process for Mike Vick - in the courtroom. Mike Vick has had none of his constitutional rights violated. The guy who said this never understood America in the first place.

I don't care if it was Peyton Manning or Larry Bird. Systematically executing dogs for it's entertainment value is depicable, and anyone engaging in Vicks's alleged behavior deserves the harshest possible consequences.

[Rastak]

If Vick has any brains he will change his plea from "not guilty" to "guilty." I wonder what advice these guys received that makes them think that they will be found not guilty in a jury trial.

Taylor is the first domino. Who's next?

The Feds are probably wanting Vick to rat out some higher ups but snitching is the cardinal sin in the circles he runs in. So does he risk a trial or go down in history as a snitch and throw away his street cred? It's a tough choice for him.

I just hope this thing doesn't turn into O.J. - part 2.

It's possible there is a higher up ut I don't think so....he's the guy running the show. I don't know if there is a larger organized network but if there is, Vick would be wise to start singing. I agree with the "guilty plea" comment. He's screwed.

[MJZiggy]

No, the way I see it, he has to plead not guilty and stick with that plea. If he pleads guilty, he gets crucified by the public. If he maintains the not guilty plea, he will always be able to claim that he wasn't responsible or framed or however he wants to phrase it and there will always be a few who might even believe it.

[Rastak]

No, the way I see it, he has to plead not guilty and stick with that plea. If he pleads guilty, he gets crucified by the public. If he maintains the not guilty plea, he will always be able to claim that he wasn't responsible or framed or however he wants to phrase it and there will always be a few who might even believe it.


Would you trade 5 years in the can for the right to claim you were framed? Not me......he better realize they are not playing around here. They are filing additional charges which could put him away for a while if things don't go his way and something tells me they ain't goin his way.

[MJZiggy]

I guess it would have to depend on the plea deal because I doubt they let him off too easy if he pleads guilty. From what I read, it just sounded like it didn't get any worse for him than it already is.

[Scott Campbell]

I'm wondering what Vick is fighting for. Is he fighting to minimize his jail time, or is he fighting to save his NFL carreer. Those two goals might involve different strategies.

Would a guilty plea end his NFL carreer?

[Scott Campbell]

Taylor is the first domino. Who's next?

The Feds are probably wanting Vick to rat out some higher ups but snitching is the cardinal sin in the circles he runs in.


I think more will talk. That cardinal sin usually only holds water until someone breaks ranks. Then the rats start feeding on eachother.

[Scott Campbell]

Deion Sanders
Don’t be too quick to judge
By Deion Sanders
Originally published on July 22, 2007

• Editor's Note: Deion Sanders, a North Fort Myers High School graduate, played in the NFL and Major League Baseball. He works as an analyst for the NFL Network and is part-owner of the Austin Wranglers of the Arena Football League. HIs column is published every Sunday in The News-Press and online at news-press.com.

Here's his column

I would’ve never thought Mike Vick, one of the NFL’s most exciting players — the man who makes the network execs smile every time he plays — would ever be indicted for crimes against man’s best friend.

The potential impact could be devastating.

He could lose millions worth of endorsements. Nike has already suspended the release of his new shoe. He could lose millions he was supposed to get from the Atlanta Falcons, if the club decides to cut him. That’s unlikely, but it could happen if he’s convicted or makes a plea arrangement.

Or his reputation might wind up so stained that he’s never forgiven in the court of public opinion. That would be too bad for the 27-year-old superstar.

This is all the result of perspective.

What a dog means to Vick might be a lot different than what he means to you or I. Hold on, don’t start shaking your head just yet. Listen to me.

Some people kiss their dogs on the mouth. Some people let their dogs eat from their plate. Some people dress their dogs in suits more expensive than mine, if you can believe that.

And some people enjoy proving they have the biggest, toughest dog on the street. You’re probably not going to believe this, but I bet Vick loves the dogs that were the biggest and the baddest. Maybe, he identified with them in some way.

You can still choose to condemn him, but I’m trying to take you inside his mind so you can understand where he might be coming from.

I’m sure all of the animal activists and Humane Society folks have a dart board with Vick’s picture in the center of it. And if he plays this season, PETA is going to picket every stadium where he plays.

Still, I must ask the question: Where is all of this going?

By now you’ve read all of the accusations about the cruelty involving the dogs — and I’m not just talking about their duels to the death. All of that is enough to make me cringe because I have three highly-trained protection German shepherds, just in case someone wants to rob my family.

Believe me, you don’t want to deal with them. With one German command, our dog Yascho turns into Cujo. And for the record, I live around the corner from the police station, so it won’t take them long to show up and save you from the dogs.

Now back to Vick.

Why are we indicting him? Was he the ringleader? Is he the big fish? Or is there someone else? The fights allegedly occurred at a property that he purchased for a family member. They apparently found carcasses on the property, but I must ask you again, is he the ringleader?

This situation reminds me of a scene in the movie “New Jack City,” when drug dealer Nino Brown is on the witness stand and eloquently says, “This thing is bigger than me.”

Are we using Vick to get to the ringleader? Are we using him to bring an end to dogfighting in the United States?

The only thing I can gather from this situation is that we’re using Vick.

Was he wrong? Absolutely. Was he stupid? Can’t argue with that. Was he immature? No doubt. But is he the ringleader? I just can’t see it.

I believe Vick had a passion for dogfighting. I know many athletes who share his passion. The allure is the intensity and the challenge of a dog fighting to the death. It’s like ultimate fighting, but the dog doesn’t tap out when he knows he can’t win.

It reminds me of when I wore a lot of jewelry back in the day because I always wanted to have the biggest chain or the biggest, baddest car. It gives you status.

Can I pause for a moment to ask you a question?

Who shot Darrant Williams? Remember the Denver Bronco cornerback? I’m just more concerned about bringing to justice someone who killed a human. Or finding out who broke into Miami Heat forward Antoine Walker’s home, tied him up and robbed him at gunpoint.

We’re attacking this dogfighting ring the same way a teenager attacks his MySpace page after school (by the way parents, make sure you monitor your kids). We should have the same passion for man that we have for man’s best friend.

The reason this is turning into a three-ring circus is that baseball is boring, basketball is months away, football is around the corner and we in the media don’t have a thing interesting to write about.

How will this end up? I have no idea. All I know is Falcons fans better pray because Vick’s backup is Joey Harrington. Enough said.

God bless and God willing I’ll hollah at you next week.

— Deion Sanders, a North Fort Myers High School graduate, played in the NFL and Major League Baseball. He works as an analyst for the NFL Network and is part-owner of the Austin Wranglers of the Arena Football League.

[Scott Campbell]

Can I pause for a moment to ask you a question?

Who shot Darrant Williams? Remember the Denver Bronco cornerback? I’m just more concerned about bringing to justice someone who killed a human.


Are we using Vick to get to the ringleader? Are we using him to bring an end to dogfighting in the United States?



Funny, if Deion is more concerned about who killed Darrant Williams, why didn't he write a column about that?

I think Deion just "used" Darrant Williams tragic death to make a point about Mike Vick not being such a big deal.

[the_idle_threat]

I kinda agree with Deion.

*Ducks for cover*

Seriously, I can see why Vick pleads not guilty. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a high standard to meet, and if he is acquitted, people's memories are shorter than you think.

Anybody remember when a guy named Ray Lewis was caught up in a double murder? He was cleared criminally, and it didn't take very long for the court of public opinion---as fickle as it is---to move on to another outrage. He even has endorsement deals again.

I think Vick is playing for the win. A "guilty" plea is a guaranteed loss.

[Rastak]

I kinda agree with Deion.

*Ducks for cover*

Seriously, I can see why Vick pleads not guilty. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a high standard to meet, and if he is acquitted, people's memories are shorter than you think.

Anybody remember when a guy named Ray Lewis was caught up in a double murder? He was cleared criminally, and it didn't take very long for the court of public opinion---as fickle as it is---to move on to another outrage. He even has endorsement deals again.

I think Vick is playing for the win. A "guilty" plea is a guaranteed loss.



While I'd never call Idle anything but an all around great guy....Deion is a total moron. His takes on almost everything make me shake my head. He claimed everyone was out to get Tank Williams and that's why he was pulled over. If he never spoke again it would be too soon.



As for Ray Lewis, I watched the entire trial on courttv. Very interesting case, essentially nobody ever said he killed anyone. He helped cover it up and from the evidence I heard he seemed pretty guilty. His thugs got intoa fracus and stabbed a couple guys to death. He allowed them to speed off in his limo. Not a nice thing to do but I was never extremely outraged about Lewis, I was extremely outraged by his posse. As for Lewis, it just irritated me to think he figured he could him his buddies because he was the great Ray Lewis.

[the_idle_threat]

Most pertinent quote from Deion article (see 2nd-to-last line):


I have no idea.

[Rastak]

PFT.com always has something funny.....the new Vick jersey replacement....( some probably won't get it)


http://www.profootballtalk.com/Voldemort.jpg

[Rastak]

ESPN


Tony Taylor's expected plea of guilty -- and with it, his future cooperation with prosecutors -- adds to an already impressive array of evidence against Michael Vick in the federal government's dogfighting case against the Atlanta Falcons quarterback.


Taylor is due to enter his guilty plea at 9 a.m. Monday at U.S. District Court in Richmond, Va. His hearing was added to U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson's docket Friday, a day after he and the other three defendants including Vick pleaded not guilty before the same judge.


Taylor was, according to the federal indictment, in the middle of the dogfighting scheme from the beginning. The indictment says Taylor, along with Vick and co-defendant Quanis Phillips, in 2001 "decided to start a venture aimed at sponsoring American Pit Bull Terriers in dogfighting competitions."


When Taylor describes these conversations with Vick and Phillips, it will be powerful evidence against Vick, establishing the conspiracy and opening the door to a mountain of other evidence against Vick. Taylor can establish the conspiracy all by himself, multiplying Vick's problems as he attempts to answer these charges.

The indictment, issued July 17, charged the four men with conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities, and conspiring to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture. The maximum punishment is five years in prison and fines of up to $250,000.


As the scheme grew, according to the indictment, Taylor played a central role. When it was time to build three large sheds to stage fights and to house dogs and equipment, Taylor obtained the necessary permits from the authorities in Surry County. He applied for the building permit for the sheds on May 2, 2003, according to records maintained by Wallace Mavin, the Surry County Building Official, and he paid the necessary fees even though Vick's name was listed as the owner and the applicant. Taylor described himself as Vick's "agent," in the documents. The house and shed, according to applications filed in May 2003, cost $362,000.



Prosecutors claim Taylor, 34, of Hampton, also allegedly helped purchase pit bulls and killed at least two dogs that fared poorly in test fights.


It will be powerful evidence against Vick, putting Vick and his money squarely in the middle of the scheme and its growth and development.


The charges in the indictment also show that Taylor can describe Vick as personally present at fights and at executions of dogs who did not perform well enough for Vick and his cohorts.


Taylor's plea of guilty comes at a critical time. Michael Gill, the assistant U.S. Attorney leading the prosecution, announced on Thursday that he would file a superceding indictment by the end of next month. The superceding indictment is likely to add charges to the gruesome charges already on file. Taylor made his bargain with the federal prosecutors before they were able to add anything to the charges already filed against him.


In addition to the tactical reasons for his plea, Taylor has been reported to feel that Vick betrayed him. Shortly after the first raid on the Vick fifteen-acre compound on Moonlight Road in Surry County, according to various reports, Vick had Taylor thrown off the property. It was part of Vick's effort to distance himself from the dogfighting operation, an effort that also includes a hasty sale of the property. The sale has not yet been finalized.



Even in the hearings on Thursday, Taylor was separating himself from Vick and the others. Vick, Phillips and Purnell Peace all appeared in court dressed in suits and ties. Taylor showed up in baggy, low slung jeans and a wrinkled yellow shirt. Vick, Phillips and Peace ignored Taylor during the short hearings and never looked at him as they gathered in the courtroom before the hearing began.

[Kiwon]

.....people's memories are shorter than you think.

This is absolutely true. Cheats, liars, and crooks everywhere know this and count on it. Barry Bonds, anyone?

Vick will play football again somewhere, even possibly in the NFL.....if he cops a deal now.

Prisoners with good behavior typically serve less than half their sentences. On the dog fighting charges alone the max is 6 years. He'll be out in 3 or less pending that he keeps out of trouble in prison.

Now what are "the additional charges" the Feds have ready for him if he doesn't cop a deal? Maybe tax evasion, trafficking in illegal interstate commerce, illegal gambling,...who knows? But these charges will be dropped now if he follows Taylor's lead.

Also, Rastak, Vick was neck deep in this sport for at least 6 years. It was a multi-state operation. As a VIP, he met a lot of bad people during that time. Many were into more than just dog fighting. I'm sure that he might have met someone that the Feds are interested in, quite possibly some crooked Virginian politicians and Surry county officials.

The loop on this thing is much wider than many might think. People knew what was going on and they protected Vick's operation. At a minimum, Vick could rat out other kennels that specialized in breeding and selling Pit Bulls for dog fighting.

[Rastak]

.....people's memories are shorter than you think.

This is absolutely true. Cheats, liars, and crooks everywhere know this and count on it. Barry Bonds, anyone?

Vick will play football again somewhere, even possibly in the NFL.....if he cops a deal now.

Prisoners with good behavior typically serve less than half their sentences. On the dog fighting charges alone the max is 6 years. He'll be out in 3 or less pending that he keeps out of trouble in prison.

Now what are "the additional charges" the Feds have ready for him if he doesn't cop a deal? Maybe tax evasion, trafficking in illegal interstate commerce, illegal gambling,...who knows? But these charges will be dropped now if he follows Taylor's lead.

Also, Rastak, Vick was neck deep in this sport for at least 6 years. It was a multi-state operation. As a VIP, he met a lot of bad people during that time. Many were into more than just dog fighting. I'm sure that he might have met someone that the Feds are interested in, quite possibly some crooked Virginian politicians and Surry county officials.

The loop on this thing is much wider than many might think. People knew what was going on and they protected Vick's operation. At a minimum, Vick could rat out other kennels that specialized in breeding and selling Pit Bulls for dog fighting.


Yea Kiwon, good point. If it extends beyond dogfighting he might have some information useful to the feds.

Additional charges are probably gambling related. I wonder if that might be the hammer Godell uses to boot him for a year, then deny his reinstatement each year from now on.......

[GBRulz]

I don't know if this was posted in one of the many Vick threads already, it was from a week ago......


Packers: Vick charges don't sit well with Ferguson

JASON WILDE 608-252-6176
jwilde@madison.com

GREEN BAY - Robert Ferguson still remembers, and it makes him sick. He was seven, maybe eight, living in the rough part of Houston, watching something no kid - or anyone, for that matter - should have to see: dogs fighting to the death right in front of his house.

"These guys, they'd have them fight right on the sidewalk. I lived on a dead-end street, and they used to have fights right at the end of the street," the Green Bay Packers' veteran wide receiver recalled. "I saw dogs get shot - if they lost a fight, a guy would just shoot them right there.

"I grew up around that. As a matter of fact, me and neighborhood kids, we used to try to steal the dogs from the guys who were fighting them."

Which is why Ferguson is especially troubled by the allegations against Atlanta Falcons star quarterback Michael Vick, who was indicted by a federal grand jury Tuesday on charges of sponsoring a vicious dogfighting operation in which some weak or losing or dogs were electrocuted, drowned, hanged or shot.

Vick and the other three defendants have been charged with competitive dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting and conducting the enterprise across state lines in connection with "a company called 'Bad Newz Kennels,'" in which the dogs were housed, trained and fought on a property owned by Vick in Surry County, Va.

Vick is scheduled to appear in district court in Richmond, Va., Tuesday, the day the Falcons are set to open training camp. If convicted, Vick and the others could face up to six years in prison, $350,000 in fines and restitution.

Ferguson, who like Vick entered the NFL in 2001, said he knows Vick but "out of respect for him, I won't speculate on that situation. All I know is what's been said."

Packers defensive end Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila, who owns two dogs and serves as a spokesman for the Green Bay-area humane society, said he hopes people don't look at the case and say it's "just dogs."

"I have a brother who doesn't like dogs. He's kicked it before. I'm like, 'What are you doing?' And he'll say, 'It's just a dog,' " Gbaja-Biamila said. "That's not a good mentality to have. God created all these creatures, and it's our responsibility to take care of them, to keep them safe, and not put them in a situation where they get hurt. You don't treat any living thing like that. It's inhumane.

"As far as Vick, I don't know his involvement. But whoever does it, it's wrong. Clearly. Whoever it is. Whatever happens, I hope justice is served."

As the owner of two pit bulls and an advocate for the breed, Ferguson said the high-profile case will bring much-needed attention to the appalling nature of dogfighting. In 2003, Ferguson organized an anti-dogfighting group in Houston - with the slogan "Punish the deed, not the breed" - and when news of the dogfighting operation on Vick's property broke in April, Ferguson teamed up with the Houston chapter of the ASPCA and went to various neighborhoods to talk to children about dogfighting.

"Nothing specific to Vick, just in general, dogfighting is flat-out wrong. Period. Regardless of who it is and who's involved," Ferguson said. "That's cut-and-dried, black-and-white. It's against the law. It's what every civilized person in America should think about. If I could bring you some pictures of dogs who've been in dogfights, you'd understand.

"Anytime you get a high-profile guy like (Vick) involved in something as serious as dogfighting, of course it's going to heighten the awareness."

Ferguson said he has always had neighbors in his Green Bay-area subdivision ask about his pit bulls and whether they were dangerous. He believes the breed is unfairly singled out as being aggressive and mean, and he hopes in the wake of the Vick case, people blame the men who trained the dogs rather than the dogs themselves.

"People way up here in Green Bay are now thinking because it's a pit bull, because Michael Vick's name is involved, that they're fighting dogs," Ferguson said. "I have to explain to them, it's not the breed of dogs that fight, it's the people.

"Anyone in my neighborhood will tell you - the only thing my dogs will do is lick you to death. I walk 'em every day and they're social. They're like any other dog. I think any dog will bite. Not just a pit bull, any dog. A labrador will bite you. A chihuahua, a little Taco Bell dog, will bite you. It's the way you bring a dog up and how you raise him."

[Rastak]

Thanks Michele, that was a very good read. Fergy sounds like a pretty good guy. KGB's comments are spot on. They are animals but why would you purposly treat them badly? If my brother kicked my dog, I'd kick him sqaure in the ass. Then he'd beat the hell out of me most likely. But not back in 1979, I ruled the roost back then......LOL.

[GBRulz]

Thanks Michele, that was a very good read. Fergy sounds like a pretty good guy. KGB's comments are spot on. They are animals but why would you purposly treat them badly? If my brother kicked my dog, I'd kick him sqaure in the ass. Then he'd beat the hell out of me most likely. But not back in 1979, I ruled the roost back then......LOL.

aww, Ras, just because you are on crutches doesn't mean you can't take a mean swing at your bro with a tennis racket!!

[Zool]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2954244

Co-defendant says he wasn't offered sentence deal to cooperate
Associated Press

RICHMOND, Va. -- One of Michael Vick's co-defendants pleaded guilty Monday to federal dogfighting conspiracy charges in a plea agreement with prosecutors.

Tony Taylor, 34, who will be sentenced Dec. 14, said he was not promised any specific sentence in return for his cooperation with the government.

Taylor faces a maximum of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine, but likely will get less under federal sentencing guidelines. The guideline range will be determined by court officials, and U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson can depart from that range if he finds aggravating or mitigating circumstances.

"You're pleading guilty and taking your chances, right?" Hudson asked Taylor.

He responded, "Yes."

Taylor had the same answer when Hudson asked: "You have agreed to cooperate fully with the United States, is that right?"

Taylor, of Hampton, entered his plea to conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities, and conspiring to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture.

Vick, the star quarterback for the Atlanta Falcons, and two other co-defendants pleaded not guilty last week to the same charges.

The written plea agreement requires Taylor to "testify truthfully and completely at any grand juries, trials or other proceedings." It says any truthful information provided by Taylor cannot form the basis of a stiffer sentence or additional charges.

Prosecutors already have said a superseding indictment will be issued next month, which could mean more charges against Vick and the remaining co-defendants.

Taylor and his attorney, Stephen A. Hudgins of Newport News, refused to answer reporters' questions as they left the federal courthouse after the 15-minute hearing.

Prosecutors claimed in a July 17 indictment that Taylor found the Surry County property that Vick purchased and used as the site of "Bad Newz Kennels," a dogfighting enterprise.

"The 'Bad Newz Kennels' operation and gambling moneys were almost exclusively funded by Vick," a statement of facts supporting the plea agreement and signed by Taylor says.

The statement also lists several dogfights that Taylor claims Vick attended in Virginia and other states. The principals in the dogfighting ring split any winnings, and Taylor -- who spent most of his time raising and training the pit bulls -- used his share for living expenses, according to the statement.

Taylor also confirmed the indictment's claim that he helped purchase pit bulls and killed at least two dogs that fared poorly in test fights.

According to the 18-page indictment, the dogfighting ring executed underperforming dogs by drowning, hanging and other brutal means. It alleges that the fights offered purses as high as $26,000.

Taylor left the enterprise after a falling out with co-defendant Quanis L. Phillips and others in September 2004, according to the statement of facts.

The grisly details outlined in the indictment have fueled protests and public outrage against Vick. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has banned Vick from the Falcons' training camp while the league investigates.

Vick and Purnell A. Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, and Phillips, 28, of Atlanta, are scheduled for trial Nov. 26. They remain free without bond.

[Zool]

Na na na na
hey hey hey
you're a felon

[Kiwon]

It's a good move on the Feds side to not offer a specific deal to Taylor which would be relentlessly criticized by the defense to undermine his credibility - "You are cooperating with the government to get a 2-year sentence when you were the one who electrocuted a dog. You're a sadistic dog killer and you are lying now and accusing innocent men just to save your skin."

However, Taylor's putting a lot of trust in the verbal assurances that he received about a plea reduction. He has nothing in writing. Not a very strong position to be in.

[Rastak]

It's a good move on the Feds side to not offer a specific deal to Taylor which would be relentlessly criticized by the defense to undermine his credibility - "You are cooperating with the government to get a 2-year sentence when you were the one who electrocuted a dog. You're a sadistic dog killer and you are lying now and accusing innocent men just to save your skin."

However, Taylor's putting a lot of trust in the verbal assurances that he received about a plea reduction. He has nothing in writing. Not a very strong position to be in.


Keep in mind, he's most likely already between a rock and a hard place. Cooperating SHOULD get him a reduced sentence...certainly better than Vick. I agree on the Goverment's tack here, it makes it more difficult on barrister Billy Martin's credibility defense. Taylor was there to set the thing up. If Vick wasn;t completely and utterly screwed before he is now.


Only if a total moron gets on the jury does he have any hope.

[Kiwon]

Only if a total moron gets on the jury does he have any hope.

Unfortunately, these days the morons could be anywhere....in the jury box or sitting behind the judge's bench. It's impossible to predict what the outcome of any trial will be.

[Rastak]

Only if a total moron gets on the jury does he have any hope.

Unfortunately, these days the morons could be anywhere....in the jury box or sitting behind the judge's bench. It's impossible to predict what the outcome of any trial will be.


I agree. In Saint Paul Minnesota a few years ago there was a trial for the guy named Robert Guavara who was friends with this family. A 8 year old or so girl in the family leaves for the park as he leaves in his van. Girl disapears, they find her bloody clothes in his storage rental. His dad testifies he spent the next day cleaning his van all afternoon. He walks.


True story. As he leaves Minnesota he gives the finger to reporters at the airport, claiming he never wants to set foot in the state again. Nice.

[Kiwon]

Sad story, Ras. Real justice occurs in the afterlife. Ultimately, no one gets away with anything. I wish people who want to harm children would remember that.

[Rastak]

Sad story, Ras. Real justice occurs in the afterlife. Ultimately, no one gets away with anything. I wish people who want to harm children would remember that.


Yea very....this is the only thing I could find on that case.....

http://findcarrie.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=missingchildren&action=display&num=1106664662&start=15

[Kiwon]

NAACP Leaders Urge Fairness for Vick

Jul 30 01:01 PM US/Eastern

By ERRIN HAINES
Associated Press Writer

ATLANTA (AP) - NAACP leaders urged public restraint Monday in judging Michael Vick before he has his day in court.

R.L. White, president of the Atlanta chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said the Atlanta Falcons quarterback has been vilified by animal rights groups, talk radio and the news media and prematurely punished by his team and corporate sponsors.

"If Mr. Vick is guilty, he should pay for his crime, but to treat him as he is being treated now is also a crime," White said at a news conference. "Be restrained in your premature judgment until the legal process is completed."

Vick has pleaded not guilty to charges of sponsoring a dogfighting operation.

On Monday, Tony Taylor, a co-defendant in the case, pleaded guilty in Virginia to federal dogfighting conspiracy charges in a plea agreement with prosecutors. Purnell Peace of Virginia Beach and Quanis Phillips of Atlanta face similar charges and are scheduled for trial Nov. They remain free without bond.

Businesses have been quick to recoil. Nike suspended its lucrative contract with Vick and Reebok stopped sales of his No. 7 jersey. In addition, two trading car companies withdrew Vick items.

White plans to contact Vick to see what assistance the Atlanta NAACP chapter can offer. White predicted that public opinion may worsen in the wake of Taylor's plea deal.

Until then, he said he would keep an open mind and encouraged others to do the same.

Georgia NAACP President Edward Dubose thanked Vick for his community service and the money and excitement he has brought to Georgia as a Falcon. Dubose said Vick is being prosecuted in the court of public opinion before he has had a chance to defend himself.

"We're not condemning bad behavior, but Michael Vick is innocent until proven guilty," Dubose said.

Atlanta chapter member Bernadette Allen attended the news conference and also a rally Sunday to support Vick.

"The man is entitled to due process under the law, as is any citizen," Allen said.

[Scott Campbell]

"If Mr. Vick is guilty, he should pay for his crime, but to treat him as he is being treated now is also a crime," White said at a news conference.


Q: If the way he's being treated is a crime, why have no charges been filed? Why has no suit been filed?

A: Because it's not a crime.

[GrnBay007]

Donovan McNabb: I'm a Mike Vick Supporter

Posted Aug 2nd 2007 2:56PM by Michael David Smith
Filed under: Eagles, Falcons, Atlanta, Philadelphia


Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb has come forward to say he's still supporting Falcons quarterback Michael Vick, who's indefinitely suspended from the NFL and facing a federal indictment.

"I'm a supporter of Vick," McNabb said Tuesday at Lehigh University. "That's because I'm a good friend of his and also we're guys that obviously compete to win the Super Bowl. We push each other. Now, I don't know exactly what happened in that situation, and I think for all of us that have read over the stuff that was over the Internet, the report, you look at it as kind of like, 'Wow, you've got your so-called friends and family members turning their back on you now to make their situation better.' They're throwing you under the bus so that they can clean their name. That's unfortunate. That goes to show, I always have a saying that I've always lived by: If you can't trust family, who can you trust? It's an unfortunate situation, and I just hope everything works out well for him where he can get back out on the field."

Presumably McNabb is referring to Vick's former friend Tony Taylor and cousin Davon Boddie when he suggests that Vick's friends and family members are turning their back on him to clean their names. But his opinion doesn't make much sense. Taylor isn't clearing his own name; he's confessing to a crime and agreeing to cooperate with prosecutors.

So far, despite the strong case prosecutors seem to have against Vick, the closest any NFL player has come to saying that Vick himself is responsible for the situation he's in is Deion Sanders, who said Vick has a passion for dog fighting. Sanders was subsequently muzzled.

[Kiwon]

More evidence why the NFL is probably urging prosecutors to offer plea deals in the hope that this case won't go to trial.

The press will keep stirring this pot until it eventually boils over. The reporters don't care the consequences as long their articles get published or their stories get aired.

The Black/White divide over Vick WILL inevitably manifest itself in NFL locker rooms and could put a damper on the whole season, especially when reporters gin up players into making off the cuff remarks about race. Someone will say something outrageous and the problem will only be compounded.

I'd like to think I'm wrong, but I honestly think that is exactly what will happen.
.................................................. ...............................................

Michael Vick dogfighting case opens racial divide

By DIONNE WALKER, Associated Press Writer
August 3, 2007

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- The difference between those sporting Michael Vick jerseys and those urging his swift conviction on dogfighting charges is glaring: Vick's supporters are mostly black; his critics are mostly white.

The racial divide emerged early in the case against the Atlanta Falcons quarterback, apparent at rallies filled with cheering -- and overwhelmingly black -- Vick supporters and at anti-Vick protests that are noticeably white.

Vick's opponents say the evidence against him is overwhelming. For many black supporters, that judgment evokes uncomfortable questions about race and guilt in America.

"White folks 'been grindin' on an ax ... and that ax ain't got sharp enough for them," said Earnest Hardy Sr., who called the case a witch hunt targeting a successful black man.

Hardy's Surry County home borders Vick's property, where an April raid turned up evidence of dogfighting. Federal authorities indicted Vick on dogfighting charges, and he faces jail time and fines. He has pleaded not guilty.

In the rural county split 50-50 between whites and blacks, the case quickly took a racial bent. At the county courthouse, angry letters urged that whites "take back their town." Critics accuse the commonwealth's attorney, Gerald Poindexter, of stalling an investigation to protect one of his own.

"The only thing I'm doing is protecting my personal integrity and protecting the integrity of the office," said Poindexter, who is black. "I'm not going to be pushed into bringing charges that won't stand."

Hardy spotted Surry's racial divisions long ago -- in the farmland developers are sweeping up and selling at prices working-class folks can't afford, and in the new neighbors who don't look like him.

Hardy suspects that Vick -- famous, rich and black -- is just the fall guy behind bigger issues.

"A hundred-million-dollar black man?" he huffed. "They can't stand it."

His view is reflected from the Newport News region where Vick was raised to Atlanta, where a rally supporting the former Virginia Tech standout drew several hundred fans, but barely 50 whites, said Gerald Rose, with Atlanta-based New Order National Human Rights Organization.

Rose said the outcry stems from what he said is Vick's premature conviction in the media -- not support for dogfighting. But he said the case also awakens anger over a perceived smear campaign targeting famous black men from Kobe Bryant to Michael Jackson.

He argues black men who stumble draw excessive scrutiny and especially harsh public judgment.

"It's been too many cases involving African-Americans (where) they got through the court of law, they've been found not guilty, but damage has been done," Rose said.

Vick and two co-defendants are scheduled to stand trial Nov. 26. The Southern Christian Leadership Conference plans to recognize Vick at its annual convention, which began Friday in Atlanta.

"We're in support of Michael as a human being," SCLC president Charles Steele said. "Right now, he's feeling discarded, ostracized by people who are rushing to judgment. It's our responsibility to save him."

Tempers flared at Vick's July 26 arraignment in Richmond, where outside the courthouse blacks and whites debated everything from animal rights to slavery.

"It's racial profiling," said Bill Brown, a Richmond store owner who held a sign urging Vick's fair treatment. "We're always trying to brush everything up under the rug when it comes to racial things."

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, leader of the most vocal Vick protests, says the issue isn't racial.

"We're reacting very strongly to this case because Michael Vick is someone who's a hero ... If this were Peyton Manning or Brett Favre, we'd be out there," spokesman Dan Shannon said.

Both NFL quarterbacks are white.

Vick's case is a "crack in the dam" of American racial tension, explained Jeff Menzise, assistant director of the Race Relations Institute at Fisk University in Tennessee.

Whites, he said, may have underlying anger at blacks they feel constantly play the race card. Blacks, meanwhile, may feel whites rush to judge black suspects, but are more lenient to white ones, Menzise said. A case like Vick's offers a vent for those frustrations.

"When you dam up a river, any crack in that dam and every drop of water is going to try and get out," he said.

Menzise said blacks may despise dogfighting but support Vick as a figure of black success in a society in which there are relatively few.

At his Richmond clothing store, Brown said he'll continue stocking Vick merchandise, though others have pulled it from shelves. He likened black support for Vick's cause to the support for O.J. Simpson's acquittal.

"Black people didn't care about O.J.," he said. "But we felt like we finally won."

[Rastak]

Kiwon, Feds ain't gonna bow to pressure.


And that last comment is really really sad. I'm not even mad about it....it's really sad that people are this polorized that they can't see the fricken forest from the trees.


How idiotic.

[GBRulz]

I agree with Ras, the Feds rarely indict someone without already having 99.9% of the evidence against them already. They aren't going to waste time and they certainly aren't going to fret about pressure from the NFL.

[MJZiggy]

Every locker room needs to take on a policy of not answering questions on this topic until after the trial--and then they need to take on a harsher policy of not answering questions about it.

I think in GB, the racial aspect of this trial is gonna be played less (at least until he gets cut) because Fergy is such a pit bull advocate

[GBRulz]

People don't care about Fergy in GB.. :lol:

[MJZiggy]

I meant in the locker room...and BF4MVP does...so that's one.

[GBRulz]

no, that boy has finally wisened up about him.

Where the heck is BF4 anyhow? I miss that kid.

[Kiwon]

Ras, I'm just guessing, of course. I don't know if the NFL owners and execs are busy behind the scenes or not. But there are billions of dollars at stake every NFL season. Bad press and dissension among the players (their employees) are the last things that they would want. It would not surprise me at all if they were putting pressure on both sides to end it quickly.

This thing is a racial powder keg ready to go off. I think they realize that as do most in law enforcement, politics, civic activism, the media, etc. It's an issue ripe for manipulation by troublemakers. I think the federal prosecutors will take the concerns of the NFL (if expressed) into consideration.

Some issues are like kicking a hornet's nest. Most of us choose to leave it alone. Maybe it's time for a "knock down, drag out" on race in America but I, for one, am not looking forward to it.

It may not come to that, but from my vantage point, I see that it's unavoidable.

[Rastak]

Ras, I'm just guessing, of course. I don't know if the NFL owners and execs are busy behind the scenes or not. But there are billions of dollars at stake every NFL season. Bad press and dissension among the players (their employees) are the last things that they would want. It would not surprise me at all if they were putting pressure on both sides to end it quickly.

This thing is a racial powder keg ready to go off. I think they realize that as do most in law enforcement, politics, civic activism, the media, etc. It's an issue ripe for manipulation by troublemakers. I think the federal prosecutors will take the concerns of the NFL (if expressed) into consideration.

Some issues are like kicking a hornet's nest. Most of us choose to leave it alone. Maybe it's time for a "knock down, drag out" on race in America but I, for one, am not looking forward to it.

It may not come to that, but from my vantage point, I see that it's unavoidable.


Well, I think we may have to disagree a little. You have to be pretty hard core to dismiss killing dogs in the manner he's accused of. The zealots like you quoted in your other post are good examples. Mainstream isn't gonna support this guy. Maybe after all these years I'm still a bit stupid in such matters. You might be right. But right now, I don't sense a huge racial outcry in the US. When the details emerge at trail only the complete blockheads will stay to their story of injustice. And guess what, no matter WHAT the evidence or crime they'd be singing the same song too.


Take a look at your quote a couple posts back about somebody feels like they won one because a guy got away with a double murder....amazing stuff.

[Kiwon]

Ras, I'm usually an optimist, but O.J.'s trial was a reality check for me. Rational, thinking adults don't act like rational, thinking adults.

People like that guy REALLY don't care about two people bring murdered or dogs being tortured IF it threatens to invalidate their worldview of inequality and oppression. You're right, nothing is going to change their opinions. It's a message that they've heard all their lives and they believe it.

I guess our disagreement might be over whether that guy is the fringe or the mainstream. I'm sad to say it, but I think he represents the mainstream of Black Americans.

I wish I was wrong but I don't think so.

(Okay, I'm getting depressed. Vick and the boys are heartless hoods. They should be made to visit Ving Rhames' house and "play" with his three 200-pound bull mastiffs that killed someone today. I think some fear and a few dog bites would be the start of fitting justice for these guys.

However, they are legally innocent until proven otherwise in a court of law. An admission of guilt via a plea deal and limited jail time would not be equal justice to the crime but I'm speculating that many, including the NFL owners and execs, will push for this as the best course of action in order to avoid a worse problem. It's not right, but.....

I wish everyone would act like rational, thinking adults but they don't. It is depressing that full justice probably won't be served. I'm done discussing it for tonight. :( )

[oregonpackfan]

For everyone's concern, I hope that Vick gets his due process in court in a timely fashion. I would hate for this court proceeding to drag on and on.

[woodbuck27]

For everyone's concern, I hope that Vick gets his due process in court in a timely fashion. I would hate for this court proceeding to drag on and on.

This M. Vick story is getting nearly as much publicity up here as the Conrad Black trial did.

Abusing a dog in any manner seems to bear more heat than sposal abuse.

Buddy turned on him and the case is in order. I hope the NFL turns back on him and he's dirty dog done.

What an idiotic thing do get involved in with all the career he had.

It's a shame. :(

[Rastak]

For everyone's concern, I hope that Vick gets his due process in court in a timely fashion. I would hate for this court proceeding to drag on and on.

This M. Vick story is getting nearly as much publicity up here as the Conrad Black trial did.

Abusing a dog in any manner seems to bear more heat than sposal abuse.

Buddy turned on him and the case is in order. I hope the NFL turns back on him and he's dirty dog done.

What an idiotic thing do get involved in with all the career he had.

It's a shame. :(



Yea, that is crazy how a spouse almost does seem to rank lower. I think part of it is this. Guy comes home drunk, beats hell out of wife. Wife waits for guy to fall alseep, wife cuts off guy's dick or dumps a gallon of gas over his head then tosses her cig on it. Dog doesn't have any options. I'm not saying the dog is the worse crime either. I'm just saying dog is man's best friend and they have no options so people get real angry.

[MJZiggy]

You've hit it Rastak. We've bred dogs to be dependent on us. The dogs are penned in and can't just leave and I'm sure it wasn't a fair fight when they killed them either. Even setting aside a dog owners' visions of it being their beloved pet being abused, you still have to look at it as a helpless victim. This is also why crimes against children are so heinous (not comparing the two, obviously, but the reasoning is the same), because in both cases, the victims are helpless to defend themselves against the abuse.

[Rastak]

From PFT.com

Now they've canceled the QB challenge because dog face was in it...



POSTED 9:18 p.m. EDT, August 8, 2007

NFL CANCELS QUARTERBACK CHALLENGE AND NO ONE NOTICES

The National Football League pulled the plug on ESPN's broadcast of the 2007 Quarterback Challenge.

The show was supposed to air initially on Friday, August 3, and presumably would have been replayed more than Barry Bonds' 756th home (yawn) run. According to the Caymanian Compass, the NFL's decision arose from the involvement of Michael Vick in the competition that was conducted on May 19, less than a month after dogs and dog-fighting equipment were removed from Vick's secluded Virginia property.

The Cayman Islands Department of Tourism was informed of the decision by the NFL on July 30.

The move isn't surprising. What is surprising to us is that no one noticed.

We heard in May that Josh McCown of the Raiders won the competition.

[Terry]

It's not that a spouse is ranked lower than a dog, it's that spousal abuse is ranked lower than the crime under discussion here. And I don't think it's so crazy. The thing is, that if a spouse is doused with water and electricuted, or bashed against a wall until dead, we view it pretty damned seriously. If it was a regular occurrence going on under our noses, supported in full by a segment of our society, it would rise in "ranking" pretty damned quickly. Families of victims would be out in droves with chainsaws and baseball bats and the carnage that would ensue would be viewed as understandable by a large number of us. If people go out now and bash dog fighters to death, we'd be appalled.

Furthermore, even those of us who eat cows and pigs regularly (including myself), I suspect we are deeply threatened by the mentality of the utter absence of compassion in a person who could perpetrate such terrible things upon such a beloved animal. I think we suspect that that same person in another place and time would be pouring in the Zyklon-B into rooms filled with human beings, without a second thought. Whether we judge that one crime is more heinous than the other is irrelevant, because I think we viscerally see both people as strikingly similar. There have been cases of serial killers of children who tortured their prey prior to murder and we are all so appalled that an out and out murder of the perps would not be condemned by the public - especially in the British case of Ian Brady & Myra Hindley, who actually recorded their sessions with the victimes.

Anyway, I have a few thoughts about this 'issue'. Scattered thoughts, I suppose.

Firstly, I love animals, dogs especially. I have absolutely zero tolerance for blatant cruelty. I remember a comment made elsewhere from someone who thought it was pretty bad, but that six years is a bit stiff - after all, he said, they are dogs. Well, overall, I'm not big on huge sentences, but in the context of American sentencing, I personally think six years is pretty light, comparatively speaking. As I read what I've learned in this thread, I'm more horrified than ever - Vick is in up to his eyeballs. I didn't know he owned a breeding license, for instance, when I read that he had promised the NFL commissioner that it was his property but that he was never there (and in subsequent statements, he used that word - "never" - also - his legal team changed it to "rarely") and he had no idea of what was going on. I didn't know a lot of things.

However, for all that, I still believe in due process and the presumption of innocence. For that reason, I wish animal groups would stay the hell away from the courthouse, at least those who wish to vilify Vick (I do think it's a great opportunity for and ASPCA and others to use the publicity to make serious headway on combating this sport). And I especially think - given that Vick, to my knowledge, has no previous record - that the NFL had no right to forbid him to attend training camp. Now, look, I'm not a complete dope (whatever the appearances) and I know the NFL would have such a PR nightmare on their hands if Vick was practicing or playing (not that he would have time) & that it could wreak havoc on the season. But they should have found a way to separate the NFL from Vick without a suspension and with an explicit statement that the situation came about with Vick's agreement for exactly those reasons, but that the NFL remains firmly behind him prior to court judgment, that he is a member in good standing, blah, blah, blah, maybe even saying that Vick decided to take a sabbatical pending the outcome of the case, with full pay. Well, ok, you work out the details, but I think you get my drift. At worst, the NFL should have kept its mouth shut and just say that whatever arrangement the Falcons make with their players is their business. Just because comment is demanded does not mean it has to be given.

Beyond that, I think the NAACP should mind their own business - I'm sure if a white public figure was brought up on charges for such a crime, the NAACP would not be out there offering their support to the charged. Their business is not about dog fighting. And if I wish that PETA would seek their publicity elsewhere than outside of the courtroom and carefully avoid demonstrations of specifically aimed hatred, then that goes triple for the NAACP.

I just hope the judge is a strict constitutionalist AND a very, very avid lover of dogs both.

[Rastak]

From PFT:



CLEARLY, VICK DID IT

As the sports world continues to get its arms around Monday's surprising news that Mike Vick's two remaining co-defendants are going to plead guilty to charges that they conspired with Vick to maintain an interstate gambling enterprise and an interstate dog-fighting operation, we think it's time to apply some common sense to the current state of affairs.

Throw the presumption of innocence out the window, folks. Clearly, Vick is factually guilty of the charges filed against him. Why else would each of the three men with whom he allegedly conspired admit that there was a conspiracy?

Each of the three men will go to jail. The only benefit that they'll derive from their decision to 'fess up is that they'll avoid being charged with the underlying crimes, which in the case of the interstate gambling enterprise carries a far stiffer maximum penalty.

And now Vick must ask himself whether he wants to take advantage of that same benefit. He can plead guilty to conspiracy charges and hope for the best when it comes to sentencing, or he can roll the dice and hope that his lawyer can discredit seven witnesses (and counting), each of whom will presumably testify that Vick was involved in the gambling and dog-fighting venture.

The fact that Vick is reportedly contemplating his options reinforces our belief that Vick is by no means innocent. Innocent men don't ponder pleading guilty; they proclaim their innocence in clear, certain terms and they prepare to prove their innocence in court.

Per ESPN, if Vick doesn't plead guilty to the conspiracy charges by Friday, a new indictment with at least two new dog fighting charges will be filed. We believe that the new indictment will likely also include a count based on Title 18, Section 1952 of the U.S. Code, which is titled "Interstate or foreign trade or travel in aid of racketeering enterprises," and which carries a maximum penalty is 20 years behind bars.

It is a tremendous dilemma for Vick. The man who has spent his life escaping with ease from difficult situations is now backed into a corner. One option means certain imprisonment for a relatively short period of time. The other option means a strong likelihood, but not a certainty, of an even longer period behind bars.

Vick might be inclined not to plead guilty because to do so would likely end his NFL career permanently, but even an acquittal at this point won't be enough to get Vick back inside a shirt with the shield at the bottom of the collar. We've said all along that Vick will have a chance at returning to the NFL only if there is Duke lacrosse-style evidence that fully exonerates him. With Purnell Peace and Quanis Phillips pleading guilty as charged, that's simply not going to happen.

So we think Vick's best bet is to plead guilty, bid farewell to the NFL, do his time quickly and quietly, and then return to the CFL or the UFL or whatever other FL is out there when he gets out.

And, if all else fails, there's always pro wrestling.

UPDATE: ESPN's Kelly Naqi just said on SportsCenter that if Vick doesn't plead guilty to pending charges by Friday he'll face at least two new counts for "felony dog fighting." But dog fighting didn't become a felony under federal law until a couple of weeks after the initial search of Vick's property in Virginia. Under federal law, it was a misdemeanor at the time Vick was allegedly engaged in it. And ESPN continues to ignore the gambling aspect of these charges.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It is a tremendous dilemma for Vick.

Ya, he either leaves the NFL now with 10M$ in the bank, or is allowed to return to the NFL and raise his net worh to 20M$ before he is retired.

I don't know what his finances actually look like, but I assure you his prospects are better than mine. Sure, it would be a drag to have to quit football now, but he has to fashion a life-after-football soon anyway. He has plenty of money to lead a comfortable life. We need to keep this "tragedy" in perspective.

I don't want to see Vick do a long prison sentence, I just don't care to see him in the NFL again.

[Rastak]

It is a tremendous dilemma for Vick.

Ya, he either leaves the NFL now with 10M$ in the bank, or is allowed to return to the NFL and raise his net worh to 20M$ before he is retired.

I don't know what his finances actually look like, but I assure you his prospects are better than mine. Sure, it would be a drag to have to quit football now, but he has to fashion a life-after-football soon anyway. He has plenty of money to lead a comfortable life. We need to keep this "tragedy" in perspective.

I don't want to see Vick do a long prison sentence, I just don't care to see him in the NFL again.


If he violated league policy the Falcons may be able to go after the 28mil they paid him in bonus money. I don't know how much he made or lost from his dog killing operation but I bet he doesn't have that laying around.

If he pleads guilty to running an interstate gambling opertaion he may NEVER play another down in the NFL again. They simply won't let him back.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If he violated league policy the Falcons may be able to go after the 28mil they paid him in bonus money.

I doubt the league would be successful. It's not going to be a black & white issue where the league recoups the whole bonus on a technical violation.

[Kiwon]

The heat is really on Vick now to cop a plea. The other three defendants are ready to take deals and guess who they will testify against?

Vick's lawyers say that they will take their case to trial on November 26, but they have to be worried. My prediction: Vick will be made a martyr for a while by the NAACP and others, but sometime before November 26 he will take a deal.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if after prison Vick doesn't play more football and get into other businesses and finally end up more popular than ever in the Black community. A prison stint is a resume enhancement to the hip-hop crowd.

.................................................. ...................................
Vick's co-defendants set to enter plea agreements

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/falcons/2007-08-13-vick-codefendants_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

[Rastak]

If he violated league policy the Falcons may be able to go after the 28mil they paid him in bonus money.

I doubt the league would be successful. It's not going to be a black & white issue where the league recoups the whole bonus on a technical violation.

There is precident.....see the Ricky Williams case. It wouldn;t be the league recouping the money, it's the team. Imagine if you payed a guy 28 mil to do a job, and he commited a felony which prevented im from doing the job you paid him for. You'd do whatever you could to recover the money you paid for services NOT rendered.

[Rastak]

The heat is really on Vick now to cop a plea. The other three defendants are ready to take deals and guess who they will testify against?

Vick's lawyers say that they will take their case to trial on November 26, but they have to be worried. My prediction: Vick will be made a martyr for a while by the NAACP and others, but sometime before November 26 he will take a deal.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if after prison Vick doesn't play more football and get into other businesses and finally end up more popular than ever in the Black community. A prison stint is a resume enhancement to the hip-hop crowd.

.................................................. ...................................
Vick's co-defendants set to enter plea agreements

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/falcons/2007-08-13-vick-codefendants_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Kiwon, apparntly Vick has until Friday to plead guilty, if he refuses, they have additional charges they held back which carry 20 years in the clink ready to file. With seven guys lined up to tell the whole story before the jury, if he doesn't plead guilty this week he's an even bigger idot than I thought. And I thought he was a complete idiot.

That's a good tactic the Feds are using by holding back the more serious charges, man would that ever put pressure on a guy.

[Kiwon]

You're right, Ras. I forgot about the other charges. He's in a vise right now and the Feds are applying the pressure. He better swallow his pride and take a deal.

Like I mentioned before, no one will be happier to have this case disposed of quickly than the NFL. Their image has already suffered and they have a lot, and I mean a lot, of PR work to do.

Part of Vick's deal will have to include making a full confession. That will be very interesting indeed. That's when Vick will really be villified.

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" and get your reputation completely trashed.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Imagine if you payed a guy 28 mil to do a job, and he commited a felony which prevented im from doing the job you paid him for.

Ya, if Vick were to get a very long prison sentence that prevented him from fulfilling any portion of his contract I imagine the NFL could recover his bonus. I think that is unlikely.

[Rastak]

Imagine if you payed a guy 28 mil to do a job, and he commited a felony which prevented im from doing the job you paid him for.

Ya, if Vick were to get a very long prison sentence that prevented him from fulfilling any portion of his contract I imagine the NFL could recover his bonus. I think that is unlikely.


He'll go to prison for a while and get kicked out of the league. THAT's why they'll go after his bonus. If you get yourself kicked out of the league over a felony you're going to be asked to pay it back, unless Arthur Blank is in an extremely generous mood.

[Harlan Huckleby]

He'll go to prison for a while and get kicked out of the league. THAT's why they'll go after his bonus.

Ya, but the judge is not going to give them back the entire bonus. If the team chooses not to re-employ Vick when he's out of stir, they can't expect to reclaim the entire bonus.

[Rastak]

He'll go to prison for a while and get kicked out of the league. THAT's why they'll go after his bonus.

Ya, but the judge is not going to give them back the entire bonus. If the team chooses not to re-employ Vick when he's out of stir, they can't expect to reclaim the entire bonus.


If he is kicked out of the league the arbitrator is probably going find him in breach of his contract and order him to pay at back the bonus like Ricky Williams was.


It works like this:
Pay the money back, get cut, if you ever get reinstated you negotiate a new deal to replace the one you were found to have violated by commiting a felony and getting youself booted and imprisoned.




He'll never see a 28mil signing bonus, that's for sure. I doubt he plays another down in the NFL. Just my opinion.

[MadtownPacker]

The "dirty" birds management knew what vick was all about. They should just let him have what he got already. Maybe they aren't the innocent victims they are being made out to be. You gotta think word of vick's activities would eventually get back to them somehow. They are morons after they let him flip off the fans. Should have dumped vick (which they are gonna do now anyways) and kept Schaub and you KNOW they where thinking about it before all this shit even came out. Arthur Blank had a huge crush on his overrated QB so let him rot with him!

[Harlan Huckleby]

If he is kicked out of the league the arbitrator is probably going find him in breach of his contract and order him to pay at back the bonus like Ricky Williams was.


Ricky Williams case very different - he breached contract by refusing to play. Vick will be available and willing to play.

I agree with you that Vick probably won't play football again, although maybe colored by some willful thinking on our part.

I'm pretty sure you are mistaken about the money.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Madtown, you and Rastak are both just trying to keep the black man down.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

If he is kicked out of the league the arbitrator is probably going find him in breach of his contract and order him to pay at back the bonus like Ricky Williams was.


Ricky Williams case very different - he breached contract by refusing to play. Vick will be available and willing to play.

I agree with you that Vick probably won't play football again, although maybe colored by some willful thinking on our part.

I'm pretty sure you are mistaken about the money.

Harlan, on this one you are mistaken. He will be forced t repay the bonus. Teams go after that bonus money all the time: Lelie, McArdell, Owens, Plummer, Foley, etc.

The Falcons may not choose to find Vick in default of his contract, by giving him written permission to miss practices..the NFL impaired the falcons from getting some of the signing bonus when they asked him not to show. But the Falcons still hold the option to recover bonus money at a later date, but as time goes on, the potential money recovered will decrease.

[Rastak]

From Atlanta Journel Constitution


Vick attorneys negotiating plea
Falcons QB would serve prison time if agreement reached

By D. ORLANDO LEDBETTER, BILL RANKIN
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 08/14/07

Michael Vick's attorneys are engaged in plea negotiations with federal prosecutors and the Falcons quarterback could reach an agreement before new dogfighting charges are handed down next week, according to a person with knowledge of the negotiations.

The negotiations follow news that two more of Vick's three co-defendants are scheduled to enter guilty pleas later this week as part of a deal with prosecutors.


Associated Press
If prosecutors accept a plea agreement from Michael Vick, the Falcons QB will likely serve some prison time, according to federal sentencing guidelines.


Collins Spencer, a spokesman for Vick's lawyers, declined to comment Tuesday on any possible negotiations.

He added that Vick did not meet with his attorneys last night but said they will have a conference call with Vick this morning and may have an announcement this afternoon. Spencer did not indicate what the announcement would be.

On Monday Spencer said the legal team was "very surprised" by the pleas from Purnell Peace and Quanis Phillips and said they would not affect plans to move forward toward a Nov. 26 trial.

Vick's lead attorney, Billy Martin, could not be reached for comment.

If the announcement is that Vick has reached a plea agreement, the embattled star quarterback is expected to be sentenced to some time in prison, according to federal sentencing guidelines.

Vick's motivation to enter a guilty plea is likely fueled by the U.S. Attorney's Office announcement last month that it will seek a new "superseding" indictment against Vick by the end of August. With the cooperation of Vick's three co-defendants, there will likely be new, and more specific, allegations against Vick. The federal grand jury in Richmond is expected to hand up that indictment sometime early next week.

If Vick can reach an agreement by the end of this week, he would not have to answer to any additional charges.

This week, Vick learned that in the criminal justice system, friendship only goes so far.

On Monday, guilty plea hearings were scheduled for two of his co-defendants and long-time associates. Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, has a plea hearing scheduled for Thursday in U.S. District Court in Richmond at 9 a.m., while Phillips, 28, of Atlanta, has a plea hearing set for Friday at the same time. The hearings showed up Monday on U.S. District Court Judge Henry E. Hudson's docket.

The third co-defendant, Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton pleaded guilty July 30 and agreed to cooperate with prosecutors in their case against Vick. Just days earlier, Taylor had joined Vick and the others in pleading not guilty.

Attorneys for both Peace and Phillips declined to comment Monday.

"There's no telling until the actual pleas, but this doesn't sound like good news for Michael Vick," said Kent Alexander, once the U.S. attorney in Atlanta and now Emory University's general counsel. "Usually, if people plead guilty early in a case they may be cooperating with the government. That's what it sounds like here."

A federal grand jury indicted the men last month on a single count of conspiracy to cross state lines to engage in illegal gambling; to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture; and to buy, transport and receive dogs for animal fighting.

They face up to five years in prison and $250,000 in fines, but defendants often receive more lenient punishment when they accept responsibility and enter guilty pleas.

A 13-page statement of facts Taylor signed with prosecutors last month says Vick, Peace and Phillips set up a business called "Bad Newz Kennels" in rural Surry County, Va., to raise and train pit bulls for dogfights.

It also says the men gambled on the fights in Virginia and several other states and that Vick almost exclusively funded the dogfighting operation and gambling monies.

At various times, Taylor, Peace and Phillips executed dogs they didn't think would fight well by shooting them, the statement says. The indictment issued earlier in July said Vick also executed dogs.

The plea deals for Taylor, Peace and Phillips emerged after federal prosecutors announced at their arraignment hearing last month that they would be seeking a superseding indictment, meaning they could name additional charges and defendants in the case. That indictment is expected to be announced before the end of this month.

Vick's jury trial is scheduled for Nov. 26, deep into the Falcons' schedule. The Falcons will have played 11 of their 16 regular-season games by then. Vick will remain free until the trial, but his availability to appear on field is unclear. The NFL barred Vick, with pay, from being with the team pending the outcome of its own investigation.

A call to Vick's agent, Joel Segal, was not returned Monday. The Falcons declined to comment on the latest developments in Vick's case.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is expected to make a decision on Vick's future in a few weeks. Goodell said he is waiting for a report from investigator Eric Holder before rendering a verdict, according to a league spokesman. No timetable has been set for Goodell's decision, NFL vice president of public relations Greg Aiello said.

Tailback Warrick Dunn, who spoke to Vick recently, said Falcons players are already of the mindset that they'll have to play without him.

"Mike is going to be missed, and he has been missed, but at the same time, you have to go on," he said.

Should Holder's report lead Goodell to determine Vick violated the NFL's player conduct policy, he could issue a suspension. Holder's report also could show that Vick did not violate the policy and that no league-ordered suspension or other discipline is warranted.

A high-ranking NFL team official said Goodell likely would meet with Vick or his legal representation before levying any suspension. Such a meeting has yet to take place.

Falcons owner Arthur Blank and president and general manager Rich McKay have said they had enough information to lead them to draw up papers to suspend Vick for four games — the maximum a team can suspend a player for disciplinary reasons. The league could suspend Vick for a year.

Blank and McKay also said there were discussions about cutting Vick.

Coach Bobby Petrino said Monday he had not been told of any developments from the NFL regarding a decision on Vick.

"I'm not aware of any recent updates on this situation," Petrino said.

"We've been proceeding as if — we have to — he's not going to be here, and we're doing the best we can at that."

[Rastak]

Interesting take from the ESPN legal guy.....



Two of Michael Vick's co-defendants in a massive dogfighting conspiracy indictment have indicated they will plead guilty and might testify against Vick in a trial that begins Nov. 26 in Richmond, Va. Purnell Peace, 35, and Quanis Phillips, 28, will appear before U.S. District Judge Henry Hudson later this week to admit their participation in a scheme of breeding, training, fighting and executing pit bull terriers that went on for six years in five states. Their actions raise a number of questions for Vick, who is considering his own plea. Here are some of the questions and the answers:



What do these anticipated guilty pleas mean for Vick?



These developments are terrible news for Vick. He already was caught in a bad situation with five witnesses ready to testify against him. The five included four who cooperated early with the government and helped federal prosecutors with the devastating details in the 18-page indictment. Then, two weeks ago, Tony Taylor, another of Vick's co-defendants, agreed to admit guilt and testify against Vick. Taylor, according to the indictment, worked with Vick to establish the dogfighting operation less than eight weeks after Vick signed his first NFL contract. Adding Peace and Phillips to these five witnesses leaves Vick in a legal checkmate. He is surrounded by hostile forces. There might be no escape from the brutal charges against him. Peace and Phillips are mentioned a total of 94 times in the indictment. Their testimony puts Vick in the middle of the scheme from its beginning in June 2001 until it ended with a police raid this past April.



With seven witnesses lined up against him, what should Vick do?



Vick should be assessing the same realities that led Peace and Phillips to plead guilty. Sources have told ESPN that Vick is deciding whether to consider the possibility a jail sentence of less than one year. Government prosecutors want a jail sentence of more than one year, according to ESPN sources, and Vick's lawyers have suggested to him that he seriously consider a jail sentence of less than one year. Vick has a difficult decision to make. Unless he is caught in some level of denial or delusion, Vick must be looking hard at the idea of admitting guilt and considering an outcome that would allow him to preserve some fraction of his career in the NFL. Vick has the money and the lawyers to put up a powerful fight, but they are up against a massive and impressive investigation as well as the seven witnesses. Billy Martin, Vick's lead lawyer, has done wonders in a courtroom, but the government's case against Vick provides scant opportunity for creating the kind of "reasonable doubt" that can lead to a not guilty verdict. A jury likely would be outraged by the brutality of the evidence and impressed with its substance and its gravity. It would not be a big surprise if Vick entered a guilty plea within the next several days.



Why would Vick's friends and cohorts in the alleged dogfighting enterprise decide to admit their guilt?



It must have been difficult for Peace and Phillips to decide to admit their culpability and agree to testify against Vick. It was Vick's name and money that made the alleged operation possible. Peace and Phillips are high school dropouts who, according to the indictment, performed various chores for Bad Newz Kennels for six years, enjoying the excitement of the dark side of celebrity. Without Vick, none of it would have been possible. Both must have felt they owed Vick something, but both decided to help themselves even if it meant hurting Vick. Their decisions will allow them to avoid the cost and the agony of a trial and reduce their possible time in prison. Their decisions were based on difficult realities. If the case goes to trial, the prosecutors will suggest that their decisions were painful acts of integrity that will help eradicate dogfighting in America.



What will happen now to Peace and Phillips?



When they appear in court in Richmond later this week, Peace and Phillips will present signed plea agreements to Hudson. They will promise to tell the entire truth about the alleged dogfighting operation to agents of the U.S. Department of Agriculture and federal prosecutors. In return, they will claim they are entitled to leniency in the sentences that result from their admissions. Both have prior criminal convictions and face serious prison time under federal sentencing guidelines. If they help the government and are not caught in any lies, they can expect their prison time to be cut in half.



What's next? Can it get any worse for Vick?



Yes, it could get worse in a hurry. The federal prosecutors in Richmond are preparing a new set of charges, known in legal terms as a superseding indictment. The new charges could come any day. The new charges might include a racketeering allegation under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (known as RICO). RICO originally was designed as a weapon against organized-crime hoodlums but has been used frequently in other prosecutions. A charge under RICO would make Vick's situation significantly worse. It would make the government's case against him easier to prove, and it would increase the prison sentence Vick would face if convicted.

[Rastak]

From PFT.com

rastak: Why the hell would the league agree to even THINK about discussing this matter with Vick and his lawyers...and the Feds?
First time they called the league office I;d hang up....then hang up, then hang up.....




VICK'S LAWYERS INCLUDING LEAGUE IN PLEA TALKS?

In an updated item on its web site, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution suggests that Mike Vick's legal team is trying not only to secure a prison stay of less than a year, but also to salvage Vick's NFL career.

The AJC points out that such an approach would require the NFL's involvement, since the league's disciplinary process is independent of the legal system. But it's unclear whether the league is inclined to participate in any such deal.

The only thing that the league would have to gain from such an approach would be to ensure that Vick doesn't blow the lid off of a suspected dog-fighting subculture among NFL players. Instead, Vick would plead guilty, keep his mouth shut, do his time, and return to the NFL at the end of a suspension of agreed length.

But even if the league were to consent to, for example, a one-year suspension to be served during the one year that Vick is in prison, that doesn't mean that he'd ultimately get a gig with another team.

Though we love redemption stories (see Albert, Marv), Vick allegedly killed Lassie. Multiple Lassies, actually. Can any NFL team justify bringing this guy on board, ever?

Our guess (hope) is that the league will, in the end, refuse to enter into any deals with Vick. Mike made this mess, for himself and for the league. The league shouldn't now help him get the lightest possible penalty for his actions.

In addition to the NFL, it also would be wise for the Vick team to be talking to Virginia authorities about joining in any agreement with the feds. Even if Vick pleads guilty to pending federal charges, he still faces multiple possible counts of animal cruelty under Virginia law. And those potential charges apply regardless of the outcome of the federal charges.

[Rastak]

More from PFT.com


VICK OFFER INCLUDES AT LEAST ONE YEAR OF PRISON

The Virginian-Pilot reports that federal prosecutors have offered to Mike Vick a plea deal that will include a recommendation of a sentence of at least one year in prison.

Vick has until 9:00 a.m. EDT on Friday, August 17 to accept the deal, or to face additional charges.

There were reports on Tuesday that Vick's lawyers wanted a deal that would entail less than one year in jail. Earlier on Wednesday, a report emerged that Vick's legal team is divided on whether he should plead guilty. Our take on that specific information leak is that the Vick P.R. machine (to the extent that there even is one) realizes that news of such a split is necessary to support the eventual conclusion that Vick didn't do it.

Dave Forster of the Virginian-Pilot explained on MSNBC moments ago that Vick would be required to plead guilty to the pending conspiracy charges, which include conspiracy to maintain an interstate gambling operation and conspiracy to engage in interstate dog fighting.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LEAGUE WON'T PLAY "LET'S MAKE A DEAL"

Though Mike Vick's lawyers had been shooting for a plea deal that would entail less than a year of jail for Vick and a negotiated suspension with the NFL that would allow Vick to return to pro football, Chris Mortensen of ESPN reports that Commissioner Roger Goodell "refuses" to engage in such negotiations.

Instead, the league will continue with its own investigation, and will also monitor developments in court.

If Vick pleads guilty to conspiracy charges based on interstate gambling, he could be on the wrong end of a lifetime ban from the NFL.

Then again, the Commish probably doesn't need to go that far. We simply can't imagine any team hoping to make more money than it spends choosing to give Vick a chance to return to the NFL. Ever.

[Rastak]

Well, it clearly obvious shithead was running a gambling ring based on killing dogs......pft.com had an interesting thing. This is posted in the Steelers locker room, and most likely in all locker rooms.


http://www.profootballtalk.com/GamblingNotice.jpg


Do you think his little operation discredited the NFL? Did you notice the "banned for life" part?

[Scott Campbell]

He'll go to prison for a while and get kicked out of the league. THAT's why they'll go after his bonus.

Ya, but the judge is not going to give them back the entire bonus. If the team chooses not to re-employ Vick when he's out of stir, they can't expect to reclaim the entire bonus.



I'm not so sure Harlan. First, he likely violated a personal conduct clause in his contract - putting him in breach. Second, if the NFL suspends him for life, the team has no choice on re-employment. He's not eligible to be a Falcon if he's in jail, or banned.

They can't take back the pro-rated portion that he's already earned throught the 06 season. But the rest of it is probably at risk.

[Scott Campbell]

The "dirty" birds management knew what vick was all about. They should just let him have what he got already.


They may have known, but that is exactly why they put personal conduct clauses in contracts. He may end up getting to keep some or all of his unearned portion of his signing bonus. But I don't think it's a slam dunk.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I hope Vick comes out of this mess with some money to live on.

The NFL is a legal monopoly, which means they can't throw their weight around too much. I doubt that the NFL is going to try and reclaim the salary Vick has been paid AND prevent him from working again. I expect they'll be satisfied to get rid of the guy.

[Rastak]

I hope Vick comes out of this mess with some money to live on.

The NFL is a legal monopoly, which means they can't throw their weight around too much. I doubt that the NFL is going to try and reclaim the salary Vick has been paid AND prevent him from working again. I expect they'll be satisfied to get rid of the guy.


I hope he's broke and has to beg on the streets. What an asshole.


To be clear, the NFL isn't going to go after his salary.....the team he totally fucked over will. THEY paid him the money, not the league. He accepted 28 million dollars to play and abide by the rules. BZZZZTTTTT, he loses. As Scott pointed out, Mr shithead assured himself a place far away from the NFL after they paid him a ton of money to perform in the NFL. His own fault.

Just think about it for a damn minute HH. The dude is paid many millions of dollars, why in the flying f^&& would he run a completely illegal business which violates racketering laws for 6 frickin years? It's a gambling opertion.

Hell, I'm not in the league and I know you can get booted forever for that.





Can't uphold your end of the bargin you don't get to keep the money.

[RashanGary]

I think SC is probably close on teh money thing. If he's banned by the NFL, the team can probably seek whatever prorated part of his bonus that his actions stopped him from being able to play. He's probably spent a lot of money. I wouldn't be suprised if Vick finds himself broke within 5 or 10.

The best would be if he doesn't take the plea bargain and the Feds go all out. If they slap him with the interstate felonies and such, he is looking at a lot longer than one or two years. 6 years in prison would be a good punishment for Vick.

[Rastak]

I think SC is probably close on teh money thing. If he's banned by the NFL, the team can probably seek whatever prorated part of his bonus that his actions stopped him from being able to play. He's probably spent a lot of money. I wouldn't be suprised if Vick finds himself broke within 5 or 10.


Try the minute they ask for the 28 mil back, which will be while he is in a cell, by the way. It ain't gonna take 5 years.

[Scott Campbell]

I doubt that the NFL is going to try and reclaim the salary Vick has been paid AND prevent him from working again.


The NFL wouldn't reclaim the money, the Falcons would. And they wouldn't try to reclaim any earned salary. They're only potentially entitled to a refund of the unearned pro-rated portion of the signing "bonus".

Even though you're paid the bonus up front, you still have to earn it over the life of the contract - unless you're cut.

[GrnBay007]

TThe dude is paid many millions of dollars, why in the flying f^&& would he run a completely illegal business which violates racketering laws for 6 frickin years? It's a gambling opertion.



There are tons of ways to gamble legally. I don't think these guys that get into the dog fights are there simply for the gambling. In fact, I'd love to hear what some expert shrink has to say about what the attraction is in this sick thing they do. The actual gambling part of it is probably a small percentage of the equation.

[Scott Campbell]

I think SC is probably close on teh money thing.


Just to be clear, I think the Falcons will have a strong case, but I'm not sure they'll win.

[Scott Campbell]

Where the hell is Patler? He's better at this stuff.

[GrnBay007]

I hope Vick comes out of this mess with some money to live on.



Let him use his college education to get a job.

I hope the Feds fine him an enormous amount of money and then order him to donate all the money to Humane Societies across the US, specifically in any State in which he committed his horrible crime.

[Rastak]

TThe dude is paid many millions of dollars, why in the flying f^&& would he run a completely illegal business which violates racketering laws for 6 frickin years? It's a gambling opertion.



There are tons of ways to gamble legally. I don't think these guys that get into the dog fights are there simply for the gambling. In fact, I'd love to hear what some expert shrink has to say about what the attraction is in this sick thing they do. The actual gambling part of it is probably a small percentage of the equation.


Sorry 007, but I think it's going to be the centerpiece. These players are prohibited from gambling as part of their contract to play in the NFL. It's legal for you and me, not these guys.


Do you honestly think the NFL is going to be fine with a player running an illegal interstate gambling ring violating RICO laws?


Homey don't think so.

[Rastak]

Where the hell is Patler? He's better at this stuff.


Good point!

[GrnBay007]

Sorry 007, but I think it's going to be the centerpiece. These players are prohibited from gambling as part of their contract to play in the NFL. It's legal for you and me, not these guys.



They are prohibited from sports betting...which is illegal for people like us too unless you are in vegas....heck, even office pools/superbowl boards/world series boards are illegal for people like us if the amount won is great enough....depending on the State I'm sure.

They aren't prohibited from legal gambling (minus sports) in just say, Vegas, are they? That was what I was talking about when I made the comment on there being other avenues for gambling......if gambling was their main intent.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Just think about it for a damn minute HH. The dude is paid many millions of dollars, why in the flying f^&& would he run a completely illegal business which violates racketering laws for 6 frickin years? It's a gambling opertion.

the answer to your question is that he was stupid.

I wonder if he actually made any money on this gambling operation. I doubt it, it is nickles and dimes compared to his salary.

People keep correcting me on the "NFL versus team" distinction. I don't care about the difference. The NFL ultimately is pulling the strings, it's their legal and public relations mess.

I don't think Vick would be employable outside of football. To take away his past earnings AND prevent him from working again, on top of "paying his debt to society" in prison, strikes me as excessive.

[Scott Campbell]

To take away his past earnings AND prevent him from working again, on top of "paying his debt to society" in prison, strikes me as excessive.


What past earnings? Nobody is going to take away past earnings. They are not at risk here.

[GrnBay007]

I don't think Vick would be employable outside of football.

Why?

[Scott Campbell]

I don't think Vick would be employable outside of football.

Why?


Becuase Harlan believes that all black people are unemployable.

:)

[Scott Campbell]

Madtown, you and Rastak are both just trying to keep the black man down.




:)

[GrnBay007]

I don't think Vick would be employable outside of football.

Why?


Becuase Harlan believes that all black people are unemployable.

:)

Well lets start a welfare thread over in RR and see all the nasty replies we get. "those damn people on welfare should get off their azz and get a job".

Why should it be any different for Mr. Vick???? PLUS he had the opportunity to get a college education.........ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE!!!!

Get a job Vick!!!

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't think Vick would be employable outside of football.

Why?

Well, maybe he could partner with OJ. They could start a Bad Boyz clothing line or something. Or become born-again TV preachers.

[Scott Campbell]

The NFL ultimately is pulling the strings, it's their legal and public relations mess.\


That's true. But the NFL has suffered no direct financial damage. The Falcon's have.

[Kiwon]

Vick's legal options are clear, lawyer says

By Gary Mihoces, USA TODAY

The decision facing Michael Vick is grave, but a veteran criminal defense attorney in Richmond, Va., says the options facing the Atlanta Falcons quarterback are clear cut.

"If he's innocent, he should go to trial, no-brainer," says Steven Benjamin, past president of the Virginia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. "If he isn't innocent, it's also a no-brainer that he has to reach some kind of an agreement (a deal with prosecutors)."

Vick's final two co-defendants have plea agreement hearings set for Friday in a federal case stemming from alleged operation of a dogfighting ring. Another defendant already has entered a guilty plea to an indictment that carries a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

Should Vick opt for a deal, Benjamin says a guilty plea would benefit him during sentencing by the judge — as opposed to a potential conviction at trial.

"Absolutely, that's a recognized dynamic in federal criminal sentencing," Benjamin says.

"It is called 'acceptance of responsibility,' and under the federal sentencing guidelines, acceptance of responsibility lowers your sentencing score. It's the sentencing score that determines your sentencing range under the guidelines."

Vick's defense team has declined to comment on a potential plea bargain, but Benjamin says his "gut feeling" is Vick will follow the same path as his co-defendants. "If I were scripting this for him, and again assuming that he's guilty, I'd have the man sign a plea agreement as charged," Benjamin says.

"Then do whatever he can with the NFL (in terms of league disciplinary action), set a re-arraignment for Friday morning to coincide with these other two and then hold a press conference at least (Thursday) so you can get your spin out there before you go in and plead guilty, especially having begun with a denial of any guilt and an assertion of intent to prove innocence."

Benjamin says some plea deals can include an agreement with prosecutors on a specific sentence but must be approved by the judge. Benjamin says such deals are rarely made in federal court in Richmond.

Scheduled for plea agreement hearings Friday are Purnell Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, and Quanis Phillips, 28, of Atlanta. Peace's hearing originally was set for Thursday. The trial is scheduled for Nov. 26. The indictment carries a maximum of five years in prison and $250,000 in fines. Prosecutors reserved the right to file a superseding indictment later this month that could have stiffer possible penalties.

[Rastak]

Is there any chance in the world this guy actually decides to go to trial?



I really like Goodell's stance.....




http://www.profootballtalk.com/RevengeOfTheCommish.jpg

[SkinBasket]

I don't think Vick would be employable outside of football.

Why?

Well, maybe he could partner with OJ. They could start a Bad Boyz clothing line or something. Or become born-again TV preachers.


And being unemployable outside football isn't his own fault?

[Harlan Huckleby]

What do you suppose Vick's motivations were in going along with this dog-fighting operation? I can't imagine it was for money, he had a guaranteed fortune. More likely it was out of loyalty to some idiotic friends from his days in the hood.

everybody wants to see him punished, but how much vengeance is enough?

Vick is going to suffer a greater penalty for this crime than any other person, past or probably future. It's costing him many millions, his reputation for life. Not to mention a prison sentence.

I won't be too shocked to see Vick get another crack at the NFL down the road. I'd prefer to see Vick retire and fade away. But if Vick is made destitute by this affair, the NFL would be on shakey ground morally and legally in preventing him from working again.

[GrnBay007]

Vick is going to suffer a greater penalty for this crime than any other person, past or probably future. It's costing him many millions, his reputation for life. Not to mention a prison sentence.



All that goes along with being a superstar.

It's up to every individual to protect their reputation.

[Scott Campbell]

Hadn't thought of it that way. How's a guy supposed to scrape by on the pitiful $30M or whatever it is that he's made thus far in his career?

[Rastak]

What do you suppose Vick's motivations were in going along with this dog-fighting operation? I can't imagine it was for money, he had a guaranteed fortune. More likely it was out of loyalty to some idiotic friends from his days in the hood.

everybody wants to see him punished, but how much vengeance is enough?

Vick is going to suffer a greater penalty for this crime than any other person, past or probably future. It's costing him many millions, his reputation for life. Not to mention a prison sentence.

I won't be too shocked to see Vick get another crack at the NFL down the road. I'd prefer to see Vick retire and fade away. But if Vick is made destitute by this affair, the NFL would be on shakey ground morally and legally in preventing him from working again.

Maybe he's an asshole HH? Maybe he liked it? Either way it isn;t relevent. Vengeance should be pretty much what it should be. Jail for 16 months, and playing football in league other than the NFL.

It's called what you reap what you sow. Run an illegal dog fighting operation and an interstate gambling ring and you get fucked. DUH.

Don't tell me mr asshole didn;t know about it, he's got the other three pricks clearly stating he financed the damn thing. Loyalty? Homey don't think so. I read an article where a potential agent was trying to track him down when he was at VT and the agent was told he's off fighting them damn dogs in the woods. I'd have to search to find that story but I'm not lying, I read it.


HH, do you think people that do evil things are a-ok and maybe we should give them a stren lecture and let the go? Playing in the NFL is NOT a right.

Adios Vick.

[Scott Campbell]

Vick is going to suffer a greater penalty for this crime than any other person, past or probably future. It's costing him many millions, his reputation for life. Not to mention a prison sentence.



All that goes along with being a superstar.

It's up to every individual to protect their reputation.



Howard Cosell was run out of his profession for saying something like "look at the little monkey run". Vick is not the first public figure to fall from grace. And he won't be the last. And he's certainly not the most villified of all time.

[Harlan Huckleby]

HH, do you think people that do evil things are a-ok and maybe we should give them a stren lecture and let the go?

Going to prison is not a stern lecture.

This situation is going to look very different in two years.

One factor that works against Vick returning to NFL is the position he plays. What team is gonna want to build a franchise around him?

But maybe he plays again as a bargain backup. Again, I prefer to see him retired.

[GrnBay007]

This situation is going to look very different in two years.



How so?

I'm hoping it provides a valuable lesson to others who are tempted to dive into that sick world!!

[Scott Campbell]

Among other things, he's accused of torturing and killing wounded defenseless dogs. The descriptions are positively bone chilling. Electrecution. Drowning. Hanging.

This isn't some 11 year old kid picking off birds with a bb gun. He'll get no pity from me if he's guilty.

Harlan, I think you need to go find somebody else to feel bad for.

[Harlan Huckleby]

America is the land of second chances.

[Harlan Huckleby]

SC, I feel bad for Vick only in the sense that it's a tragedy. I feel sorry for child molestors, for that matter.



He may have been personally involved in the behaviors you site. Then again, maybe not, we really don't know everythign yet. He's at least a damn fool, probably an asshole, and maybe a real nasty dude.

[Scott Campbell]

I feel sorry for child molestors.........


I'm no Mother Theresa. I can't get beyond feeling sorry for the kids.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Obviously it's horrible for the kids. But the guys doing the shit are pretty sad cases too.

[Rastak]

America is the land of second chances.


I'm sure he'll enjoy his second chance in the arena league.....that's what happens when you are an asshole who could care less about right and wrong. There's his second chance. Playing in the NFL is NOT a priveledge any more than working at IBM or 3M or any other major corporation.


If you are a dumbass and get your dumbass self booted out of one company go find another. If it doesn't pay as well, then I guess you are a dumbass for getting your dumbass self kicked out of the one that paid well.

Enjoy your lower paying job and keep your dumbass self out of trouble or next time you'll get more than the 16 months I bet he gets.

[GBRulz]

Sorry 007, but I think it's going to be the centerpiece. These players are prohibited from gambling as part of their contract to play in the NFL. It's legal for you and me, not these guys.



They are prohibited from sports betting...which is illegal for people like us too unless you are in vegas....heck, even office pools/superbowl boards/world series boards are illegal for people like us if the amount won is great enough....depending on the State I'm sure.

They aren't prohibited from legal gambling (minus sports) in just say, Vegas, are they? That was what I was talking about when I made the comment on there being other avenues for gambling......if gambling was their main intent.

007, they are not prohibited from legal gambling, (minus sports betting) like you said. At least I wouldn't think so because I always see players at the casino's here.

[Rastak]

I think running an illegal interstate gambling ring that violates RICO laws is frowned upon.

:lol:

[GBRulz]

Isn't today the deadline for him to accept that plea deal?

[Rastak]

Isn't today the deadline for him to accept that plea deal?

Yes, New York Times indicated the deadline was 9:00am EDT. I'm guessing he either has or will agree to plead guilty today.

[GBRulz]

I think running an illegal interstate gambling ring that violates RICO laws is frowned upon.

:lol:

I have two dogs and cannot even imagine what kind of sick frame of mind you have to be in to do this shit as a form of entertainment. I'm glad there is prison time involved in this, but IMO, it should be the way the dogs were abused just as much as the gambling part of it. Yes, I'm a huge advocate for animals and donate time and money to the local humane society and the ASPCA, so my judgment is probably more biased than others. Whatever the case, I hope this @sshole sits in prison and should not be allowed to make a dime off the NFL again.

[Rastak]

I think running an illegal interstate gambling ring that violates RICO laws is frowned upon.

:lol:

I have two dogs and cannot even imagine what kind of sick frame of mind you have to be in to do this shit as a form of entertainment. I'm glad there is prison time involved in this, but IMO, it should be the way the dogs were abused just as much as the gambling part of it. Yes, I'm a huge advocate for animals and donate time and money to the local humane society and the ASPCA, so my judgment is probably more biased than others. Whatever the case, I hope this @sshole sits in prison and should not be allowed to make a dime off the NFL again.



Yea, I'm the exact same way. I'm guessing Vick does 16 months and I'm guessing the NFL will suspend him AFTER he gets out. Probably two years for the gambling aspect of it.

[Rastak]

from PFT.com......one of these idiots was arrested after failing a drug test while frree on bond....how stupid can you get?




PHILLIPS, PEACE ADMIT TO KILLING DOGS WITH VICK

In a statement of facts signed in connection with the guilty pleas entered on Friday morning by Purnell Peace and Quanis Phillips, Peace and Phillips admit to participating with Vick in the killing of eight dogs in April 2007, according to ESPN.

In our view, this means that Virginia authorities now have the green light to proceed with an indictment of Vick on eight counts of animal cruelty. Under Virginia law, he'd face up to 40 years behind bars, in addition to any federal prison term that he serves.

The alleged involvement in killing dogs is, in our view, proof positive that Vick will never be able to return to the NFL.

ESPN also reports that Phillips immediately was taken into custody because he failed a drug test while free on bond.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think running an illegal interstate gambling ring that violates RICO laws is frowned upon.

Rastak, this is a little rich. RICO laws were invented to go after the Mafia, large organizations where it was otherwise hard to pin crimes on the guys at the top. It does not appear that these geniuses were running a large crime syndicate. I'm not saying RICO laws won't be used, it's a club that prosecutors have misused in the past.

Nobody cares much about the gambling aspect. People are upset because of the mistreatment of the dogs.

[Rastak]

I think running an illegal interstate gambling ring that violates RICO laws is frowned upon.

Rastak, this is a little rich. RICO laws were invented to go after the Mafia, large organizations where it was otherwise hard to pin crimes on the guys at the top. It does not appear that these geniuses were running a large crime syndicate. I'm not saying RICO laws won't be used, it's a club that prosecutors have misused in the past.

Nobody cares much about the gambling aspect. People are upset because of the mistreatment of the dogs.


Actually, word is that if he doesn't accept a deal the prosecutors have offered him today he WILL be charged for violating RICO laws and he'll face 26 years in the cooler. He'll have 3 of the 4 guys who setup the operation testifying against him. He could easliy spend 5-7 years in prison. Easily. If he doesn't plead guilty today then he has no brains.

And for the record, the no matter what they were originally created for (RICO) , they ARE USED NOW for interstate crime ventures like Vick was clearly running.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If I go up to my old stomping grounds, Hudson, and organize a poker game with Minnnesota and Wisconsin people, they might just RICO my ass.

[Rastak]

If I go up to my old stomping grounds, Hudson, and organize a poker game with Minnnesota and Wisconsin people, they might just RICO my ass.


Oh, I'm guessing if they show up at your house they'd have a bunch of options....LOL.....

[Harlan Huckleby]

If you look at JUST the gambling aspect, Vick's offense against football is not as bad as Paul Hornug's. Hornug was betting on the NFL.


I don't want to see Vick return to NFL. But I don't want to see him destitute, either. I'm not too worried about VIck being insufficiently punished.

[The Leaper]

I don't want to see Vick return to NFL. But I don't want to see him destitute, either.

I'm sure he has enough socked away already to remain far from destitute for quite awhile. It isn't my concern that he brought all of this on himself and killed the golden goose.

[Scott Campbell]

If I go up to my old stomping grounds, Hudson, and organize a poker game with Minnnesota and Wisconsin people, they might just RICO my ass.


Will you be torturing, electrocuting, hanging or drowning the losers?

[Jimx29]

ESPN also reports that Phillips immediately was taken into custody because he failed a drug test while free on bond.Whaaa?? Does he think he plays in the NBA?

[woodbuck27]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-vickco-defendants&prov=ap&type=lgns

2 Vick co-defendants plead guilty; Vick accused of executing dogs

By LARRY O'DELL, Associated Press Writer

August 17, 2007

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Two of Michael Vick's alleged cohorts in a grisly dogfighting case pleaded guilty Friday, and one said the Atlanta Falcons quarterback joined them in drowning and hanging dogs that underperformed.

With his NFL career in jeopardy and a superseding indictment in the works to add more charges, Vick and his lawyers have been talking with federal prosecutors about a possible plea agreement.

Now that all three co-defendants have entered plea bargains, Vick is on his own to cut a deal or face trial on federal charges.

The court docket did not list any appearance for Vick. One of his lawyers, Lawrence Woodward, attended Friday's hearings and declined to answer questions as he left the courthouse.

Purnell Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach and Quanis Phillips, 28, of Atlanta entered plea agreements and joined defendant Tony Taylor of Hampton, who struck a similar deal last month. The agreements require the three to cooperate in the government's case against Vick.

Sentencing is scheduled for Peace and Phillips on Nov. 30 and Taylor on Dec. 14. Vick has been barred from training camp by the NFL and is to go on trial Nov. 26.

A statement signed by Phillips as part of his plea agreement said Vick participated in the execution of about eight dogs, some by drowning and hanging.

"Phillips agrees and stipulates that these dogs all died as a result of the collective efforts of Peace, Phillips and Vick," the statement said.

Phillips and Peace also backed Taylor's assertion that Vick was involved in gambling.

"The 'Bad Newz Kennels' operation and gambling monies were almost exclusively funded by Vick," statements by the two men say.

Peace and Phillips were charged with conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and conspiring to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture.

"Did you conspire with these folks to sponsor a dogfighting venture?" U.S. District Judge Henry Hudson asked Peace.

He replied, "Yes, sir."

The offenses are punishable by up to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine, but the exact sentence will be based largely on federal sentencing guidelines. Hudson told Peace and Phillips that certain elements of their offenses will increase their sentencing ranges.

"There are aggravating circumstances in this case, there's no doubt about it," he told Phillips.

While Peace was freed, Hudson found that Phillips violated terms of his release by failing a drug test and ordered him jailed. Phillips also is on probation for a drug conviction in Atlanta, and the guilty plea could mean more jail time in that case, Hudson said.

Any outcome that ties Vick to betting on the dogfights could trigger a lifetime ban from the NFL under the league's personal conduct policy.

The 27-year-old quarterback was linked to betting by a statement signed by Taylor, who pleaded guilty and agreed to cooperate with the government, and the July 17 indictment.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell withheld further action while the NFL conducts its own investigation. NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said the league had no comment on the latest pleas.

About 30 animal-rights activists gathered outside the courtroom. Afterward, as police officers cleared the scene, protesters continued waving large pictures of a mutilated dog.

"This is one dogfighting ring that's been annihilated," said John Goodwin, a spokesman for the Humane Society of the United States.

The four defendants all initially pleaded not guilty, and Vick issued a statement saying he looked forward to clearing his name.

A statement of facts signed by Taylor as part of his plea agreement placed Vick at the scene of several dogfights and linked him to betting. Taylor said Vick financed virtually all the "Bad Newz Kennels" operation on Vick's property in Surry County.

The case began with a search in April that turned up dozens of pit bulls and an assortment of dogfighting paraphernalia at the property, a few miles from Vick's hometown of Newport News. According to the indictment, dogs that lost fights or fared poorly in test fights were sometimes executed by hanging, electrocution or other means.

Associated Press Writer Dionne Walker contributed to this report.


woodbuck27:

Bye bye Michael. You really suck !!

[Harlan Huckleby]

If I go up to my old stomping grounds, Hudson, and organize a poker game with Minnnesota and Wisconsin people, they might just RICO my ass.


Will you be torturing, electrocuting, hanging or drowning the losers?

will consider for a future game. But of course this was a ridiculous premise - I would never socialize with people from Minnesota.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Taylor said Vick financed virtually all the "Bad Newz Kennels" operation on Vick's property in Surry County.

There's a shocker.

I wonder what the public outcry would have been if Vick had been sponsoring cock fighting for his homeboys. Lets say he even got caught choking the chickens.

I suspect he would have gotten a couple months in the county jail.

Prosecutors have a lot of discretion. I don't like it when prosecutors respond to the the passions of the public. Pulling out the RICO big guns because they can.

Look, I want to clearly state that I am against torturing puppies. I just think we need a CONSISTENT view towards cruelty to animals. It's wrong to just respond to public feelings about cruelty to the cute ones.

I trust that all you tender-hearted folk who want to see Vick rot in jail will also be protesting at the opening of bow-hunting sason. With bow hunting, by design the deer dies a long, agonizing death. ( I won't join you in the protest, because I value hunters rights, and I recognize that nature is a violent place.)

[Rastak]

ESPN's resident lawyer Munson's take on HH's favorite victim.

:wink:





On Friday morning, the last two of Michael Vick's co-defendants in a federal dogfighting case -- Quanis Phillips and Purnell Peace -- pleaded guilty to a charge of conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture. They now add their names and their knowledge to testimony from four cooperating witnesses and Tony Taylor, a co-defendant who earlier agreed to testify against Vick. With the evidence piling up against the Atlanta Falcons' quarterback, where does that leave the case? Here are the latest questions and answers.


Now that they have pleaded guilty, what do Peace and Phillips provide to the government's case against Vick that wasn't there before?


Both of Vick's former cohorts in the alleged dogfighting scheme will bring dramatic and powerful testimony against Vick. The most difficult testimony for Vick to counter will be Peace's description of a doubleheader dogfight in March 2003. According to the "Summary of the Facts" that Peace signed as part of his plea agreement, Vick and Peace entered two dogs from Bad Newz Kennels in that fight. Both lost. If the Vick case goes to trial, Peace will testify in front of the judge and jury that he and Vick "executed the dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal." That isn't all. Peace and Phillips will describe eight more executions during 2004 and 2005, all of them occurring on Vick's compound in Surry County, Va. All eight dogs flunked fighting tests. Some were drowned. Others were hung. And one was killed -- with Vick allegedly present -- by "slamming its body into the ground."

When testimony from Peace and Phillips is added to the testimony from Taylor, the government's case against Vick appears to be overwhelming. The seven witnesses can describe the alleged dogfighting scheme from its inception in 2001, less than eight weeks after Vick signed his first NFL contract, to its demise three months ago when police raided Vick's compound in rural Surry County. The seven witnesses allegedly can describe Vick building the dogfighting facility, buying dogs, breeding dogs, training dogs, betting on dogs, paying for everything and participating in gruesome executions of losing dogs.


Their testimony will be brutal and horrifying. It is the kind of testimony that likely will transcend anything Vick might be able to offer in explanation or mitigation of the charges against him. Even if the jurors believe only half of what Peace and Phillips say, it could push Vick to the edge of a conviction and serious prison time. Their testimony might also force Vick to testify in the trial, something his lawyers likely want to avoid. Without a denial from Vick about what these guys say, Vick will be finished. If he does testify, he faces a nightmare of cross-examination from federal prosecutors armed with at least seven cooperating witnesses and six years of e-mails, documents and financial records from Bad Newz Kennels.

On the issues of money and gambling, what will Peace and Phillips offer against Vick?


They will join Taylor (the first co-defendant to plead guilty) in describing the critical roles of Vick's name and his money in the establishment and the financing of the 15-acre kennel compound. More importantly, Peace and Phillips will tell the jury that Vick was the gambler in the enterprise. He was the winner when they won and the loser when they lost. The bets that were made, were made with Vick's money. In his plea agreement, Taylor said Vick was the source of all funds, both for the operation and for the gambling. He said one of the cohorts made the side bets, but Vick took the wins and paid the losses.

Vick's participation in this form of gambling will cause him serious difficulty with NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, as well as the government if a superseding indictment comes down and includes a felony gambling charge. Peace will describe Vick's payment of $23,000 in losses from the dogfight doubleheader in March 2003. Peace was present, he will testify, when Vick paid the money from a stash he kept in a book bag. Both Peace and Phillips will also describe Vick paying $11,000 in losses from a fight against a dog named "Trouble" in late 2003.

What can Vick expect from the NFL as this evidence piles up against him?


Peace and Phillips and their description of Vick's gambling add to an already difficult situation with the NFL. Vick reportedly told the commissioner face-to-face shortly after the first raid on his compound in April that he was not involved in dogfighting and gambling. The evidence of Vick's role in the kennel and his gambling now appears overwhelming. The last celebrity athlete to tell a commissioner face-to-face that he was not gambling despite a mountain of evidence against him was Pete Rose. The commissioner who listened to Rose's denial, Bart Giamatti, issued an order that banned Rose for life. Rose, of course, was betting on baseball while he managed the Reds. That was a more serious set of lies than Vick's alleged untruths, but lying to Goodell about gambling might do more damage to Vick's career than anything he did to the dogs.

Why would Vick hesitate to join Taylor, Peace and Phillips in admitting his guilt and accepting his punishment?



Vick has enjoyed six years of riches and celebrity. Obviously, he has vastly more to lose than his three alleged cohorts do. In a matter of three months, his focus has turned from succeeding as an NFL quarterback to potentially surviving time in a federal penitentiary. Instead of tens of millions of dollars in income, he is facing months of confinement if he admits his guilt. Most importantly, a plea of guilty and some prison time do not guarantee him a return to the NFL. If he is going to plead guilty in court, Vick and his lawyers want to settle with the NFL at the same time. They want an agreement that will allow Vick to return to the NFL.

Generally in multiparty negotiations such as this one, the lawyers refer to their goal as a "global settlement." It would resolve all issues, and the "global" adjective makes everyone sound important. A global settlement for Vick is unlikely, because Goodell is not interested in settling anything with Vick until the commissioner knows what will happen in the court action against the Falcons' quarterback. If Vick cannot use a plea of guilty to guarantee his return to the NFL, he may be looking hard at the idea of fighting the charges in a jury trial and hoping for a miracle.

Lester Munson, a Chicago lawyer and journalist who has been reporting on investigative and legal issues in the sports industry for 18 years, is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

[Scott Campbell]

I just think we need a CONSISTENT view towards cruelty to animals.


Never going to happen.

Lassie was not an elk.
Rin Tin Tin was not a hedgehog.
Bison are not man's best friend.

Like it or not, dogs hold a special place in this society. And sympathy for the abused canines, and anger against the perpetrators, will always be greater for dogs than for less revered species.

[Rastak]

I just think we need a CONSISTENT view towards cruelty to animals.


Never going to happen.

Lassie was not an elk.
Rin Tin Tin was not a hedgehog.
Bison are not man's best friend.

Like it or not, dogs hold a special place in this society. And sympathy for the abused canines, and anger against the perpetrators, will always be greater for dogs than for less revered species.


You can't win in the court of public opinion when you are whacking Dogs or Kids. Period. I read that somewhere in the last day and it's 100% right.

Dogs are man best friend, Kids can't defend themselves (as dogs can't) so when you torture or kill them, you are officially a worthless human being.

Difference is when you do it to kids you get the chair (and rightfully so) with dogs, only a few years in the can.
I hope he enjoys his few years in the can. I hope his can enjoys his few years in the can.

[Scott Campbell]

If the Vick case goes to trial, Peace will testify in front of the judge and jury that he and Vick "executed the dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal." That isn't all. Peace and Phillips will describe eight more executions during 2004 and 2005, all of them occurring on Vick's compound in Surry County, Va. All eight dogs flunked fighting tests. Some were drowned. Others were hung. And one was killed -- with Vick allegedly present -- by "slamming its body into the ground."


It's a fucked up world when people think that this is a fun way to spend Saturday nights.

[Rastak]

If the Vick case goes to trial, Peace will testify in front of the judge and jury that he and Vick "executed the dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal." That isn't all. Peace and Phillips will describe eight more executions during 2004 and 2005, all of them occurring on Vick's compound in Surry County, Va. All eight dogs flunked fighting tests. Some were drowned. Others were hung. And one was killed -- with Vick allegedly present -- by "slamming its body into the ground."


It's a fucked up world when people think that this is a fun way to spend Saturday nights.


No shit. Can you even imagine it? I can't.


Damn, how'd we end up on the same side.....you going to the PR game?

[Scott Campbell]

If the Vick case goes to trial, Peace will testify in front of the judge and jury that he and Vick "executed the dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal." That isn't all. Peace and Phillips will describe eight more executions during 2004 and 2005, all of them occurring on Vick's compound in Surry County, Va. All eight dogs flunked fighting tests. Some were drowned. Others were hung. And one was killed -- with Vick allegedly present -- by "slamming its body into the ground."


It's a fucked up world when people think that this is a fun way to spend Saturday nights.


No shit. Can you even imagine it? I can't.


Damn, how'd we end up on the same side.....you going to the PR game?


Wish I could, but I can't.

[Scott Campbell]

Vick likely to face state charges in alleged dogfighting ring

ESPN.com news services

Updated: August 17, 2007, 5:29 PM ET

While Michael Vick and his lawyers are pondering a possible plea deal on federal charges related to an alleged dogfighting ring, the state of Virginia plans to go ahead with separate charges as a result of their own investigation, according to a published report.

Virginia Commonwealth Attorney Gerald Poindexter told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Friday that "yes, indeed, we will prosecute" Vick and others on possible animal cruelty and dogfighting charges.

Poindexter said a grand jury is set to convene on Sept. 25 and the case would probably be submitted at that time.

The specific charges to be filed haven't been decided yet, but Poindexter said some evidence gathered in the federal case against Vick could be used against the Falcons quarterback.

Dogfighting and animal cruelty are felonies in Virginia with animal cruelty charges holding penalties of up to five years in jail for each animal killed.

"The execution of these animals -- and the manner in which they were executed -- is startlingly offensive and demanding of prosecution," Poindexter told the newspaper.

[Scott Campbell]

This is interesting. If he pleads guilty and cuts a deal for less time on the federal charges, it would seem to royally screw him on the state charges. And state charges include up to 5 years for each killing.

Very interesting.

[Scott Campbell]

Anyone here have a legal background that can help clarify this?



It looks to me like he can't cut a deal with just the Feds, as it would expose him to up to 40 years on the state charges. Does he have to cut a deal with both at the same time? Can he even do that? Could what the state announced here guarantee that he has to go to trial, instead of cutting a deal?

[Harlan Huckleby]

You can't win in the court of public opinion when you are whacking Dogs or Kids.

Well, lets leave kids out of the argument, that's a whole new discussion.

Law is not supposed to be driven by public opinion, emotions, bias. It is supposed to be based on principles, reason, precedent, facts.

cruelty to elks should be treated under the law the same as cruelty to dogs. and it is, formally, in the books. When public passion starts driving things, we have mob rule. Like in the Duke case, where the prosecutor responded to public pressure, emotions.

The Vick Case has taken on that mob rule atmosphere. Vick should be treated like all the other damn fools busted for animal fighting. They don't drag RICO in when members of Madtown's huge, extended family are busted for chicken fighting.

[Rastak]

You can't win in the court of public opinion when you are whacking Dogs or Kids.

Well, lets leave kids out of the argument, that's a whole new discussion.

Law is not supposed to be driven by public opinion, emotions, bias. It is supposed to be based on principles, reason, precedent, facts.

cruelty to elks should be treated under the law the same as cruelty to dogs. and it is, formally, in the books. When public passion starts driving things, we have mob rule. Like in the Duke case, where the prosecutor responded to public pressure, emotions.

The Vick Case has taken on that mob rule atmosphere. Vick should be treated like all the other damn fools busted for animal fighting.


Are you not getting this, there are laws and mr prick is about find out how they work.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Are you not getting this, there are laws and mr prick is about find out how they work.

got it.

[Rastak]

Are you not getting this, there are laws and mr prick is about find out how they work.

got it.


Finally.... :D


It's really very simple. Laws on books, Vick violates laws, Vick gets charged, Vick spends many a day in jail because he was too fucking stupid to realize when you violate federal laws you just might go to prison.


Mob mentality is just a forum thing and a special interest group thing. Anyone with even a small sense of decency will realize how friggen repugnant this shit is. The feds moved deliberately and proceeded when they realized the guy did it. I don't see the controversy you see.

[Scott Campbell]

Plea agreement may not arrive until Monday

By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com
(Archive)

Updated: August 18, 2007, 2:41 PM ET

ATLANTA -- Still heavy into negotiations and deliberations, embattled Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick continued on Saturday to mull his options in the dogfighting case he faces in federal court, and has still not completely ruled out the possibility of proceeding to trial on November 26.

Sources with knowledge of the ongoing negotiations with prosecutors, and also with the discussions within the Vick camp, said a plea agreement -- if the quarterback decides to accept one -- may not come now before Monday. One source suggested a plea might not be entered until Tuesday; however, a U.S. District Court grand jury will convene on Monday to consider additional charges against the Atlanta Falcons' star.

It is believed that, if a superseding indictment is handed down against Vick, it will include racketeering charges, which could substantially increase his potential sentence should he be convicted.

The docket of U.S. District Court Judge Henry E. Hudson, who is presiding over the case, currently indicates no cases for Monday, according to a government Web site.

"At a key moment like this in anyone's life, you want as much information as possible, and that's what Michael is trying to get," said one person close to the negotiations. "This is the biggest decision he'll ever face. This isn't like, 'Well, do I pass it or run it?' His [advisors] are trying to provide him with everything they can, every bit of information, so that he can then make the most informed decision possible."

It was expected by many, including Atlanta owner Arthur Blank, that Vick would make a plea by Friday, when two more of his co-defendants, Quanis Phillips and Purnell Peace, pleaded guilty. A third co-defendant, Tony Taylor, pleaded guilty last month.

But there was no plea by Vick on Friday and he continued to meet with members of his defense team, including attorney Billy Martin, a former federal prosecutor and one-time senior official at the Department of Justice.

Sources said that, in any plea, Vick would seek to avoid additional charges in Virginia, where Gerald Poindexter, the Commonwealth's attorney for Surry County, told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Friday that he intends to pursue charges and to present evidence to the local grand jury when it convenes Sept. 25.

The state charges could add a maximum 40 years in potential jail time, if Vick were convicted.

"Not having to deal [with charges in Virginia] is a key," said a source. "It's a big part of [the negotiations]."

In addition, the Vick defense team is attempting to gain some insight into how the NFL and the Falcons will proceed if the six-year veteran pleads guilty. In that regard, they are making little or no headway, at least at the league level.

Commissioner Roger Goodell said earlier this week that, if Vick strikes a plea deal, the NFL will examine the plea and react accordingly. Several sources, both from the league and from the Vick camp, said Goodell has been steadfast in not offering any indication of what degree of sanctions he might consider. Goodell told reporters this week, on a tour of training camps, that he could rule on Vick within seven to 10 days of a plea.

The league continues to have its own investigator, Eric Holder, probe the Vick case. Before the commissioner imposed any sanctions, he would likely want to meet with Vick, and such a session has not been broached yet.

Blank told ESPN's Sal Paolantonio before the Falcons' preseason game against the Bills on Friday night at Orchard Park, N.Y., that he has not spoken recently to Vick. But senior Falcons officials have been in contact in recent days, including Friday, with people close to the quarterback.

In the interview with ESPN and another with a local NBC affiliate in Atlanta, Blank used the terms "very disturbing," and "very troubling" to describe the situation.

"From a personal perspective," Blank told Paolantonio, "it's just very sad. It's distressing after six years spending time with somebody, you think you know them, and then there's another side that is shocking to all of us."

Senior writer Len Pasquarelli covers the NFL for ESPN.com

[Him8123]

i dont see what all the deliberation and confusion is about. He did it, his so-called boys have turned against him as well. He should pay the price big time just like any other normal citizen who breaks a federal law. Dog fighting is disgusting and especially the way they killed the dogs who couldn`t fight. They should electricute his ass and see how he likes it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

i dont see what all the deliberation and confusion is about. He did it, his so-called boys have turned against him as well. He should pay the price big time just like any other normal citizen who breaks a federal law. Dog fighting is disgusting and especially the way they killed the dogs who couldn`t fight. They should electricute his ass and see how he likes it.

Well, emotions say we should lock up Vick and throw away the key, or even electrocute his ass, as you propose.

In the OJ trial, the guy was as guilty as sin, but he got off because the emotions of the jury were swayed. They were made to feel angry over past racial justice.

emotions are the enemy of justice.

What should the penalty be for cruelty to animals? Emotions say that cruelty to dogs is much worse than cruelty to pigs. But should we think about this some more, or just go by emotions? Pigs are smarter than dogs.

I think vick is being threatened with a 40 year prison sentence, as the above article mentioned, because of the public's emotions. In my mind, this is a prosecution run amok.

[GrnBay007]

I think vick is being threatened with a 40 year prison sentence, as the above article mentioned, because of the public's emotions. In my mind, this is a prosecution run amok.

HH, any time there is a plea bargain, the defendant is being "threatened" with a harsher sentence. Vick's situation is nothing new. Some may even say that with him being a "superstar" and a public figure he might be judged on a different level as he is expected to behave in a manner appropriate to his public stature.

[Harlan Huckleby]

we'll just have to see how it shakes out.

If you beleive that the law should only punish people who are cruel to the animals that we keep as pets, then the Vick situation is simple and straight forward. String him up.

[MadtownPacker]

They don't drag RICO in when members of Madtown's huge, extended family are busted for chicken fighting.Yeah but they use the chickens to make caldo sfter so they dont go to waste.

Besides, chickens dont have feelings. :lol:

[Rastak]

i dont see what all the deliberation and confusion is about. He did it, his so-called boys have turned against him as well. He should pay the price big time just like any other normal citizen who breaks a federal law. Dog fighting is disgusting and especially the way they killed the dogs who couldn`t fight. They should electricute his ass and see how he likes it.

Well, emotions say we should lock up Vick and throw away the key, or even electrocute his ass, as you propose.

In the OJ trial, the guy was as guilty as sin, but he got off because the emotions of the jury were swayed. They were made to feel angry over past racial justice.

emotions are the enemy of justice.

What should the penalty be for cruelty to animals? Emotions say that cruelty to dogs is much worse than cruelty to pigs. But should we think about this some more, or just go by emotions? Pigs are smarter than dogs.

I think vick is being threatened with a 40 year prison sentence, as the above article mentioned, because of the public's emotions. In my mind, this is a prosecution run amok.


The point HH is moot. The law is the law. I know cruelty to animals is not legal and so do you. So did Vick the prick. Hanging a pig will get you prosecuted too. Emotion or not, moral or not the law is the law. Don't give us some juvenile cow/slaughterhouse story either. We are all adults here, let's keep the argument at that level at least.

Get used to the idea Vick is going to prison for a long time for violating laws he was fully aware of as he was breaking them for six years.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The law is the law. ... Hanging a pig will get you prosecuted too. Emotion or not, moral or not the law is the law.

At last, a breakthrough! There are tears welling in my eyes. I think you see my point: Vick should be punished because he violated principles that were layed down in law. (the principle being that it is wrong to cause animals to suffer unnecessarily.) His punishment should not be determined by the degree of public outrage, but by the amount of suffering he caused. This is justice! I like justice, justice good. I'm sorry that a pig had to be hung to illustrate the point, but it was for a good cause.

When a pretty, white college woman gets raped, the public and the district attorny get very, very interested. When some skinny guy in prison takes it up the poop shoot against his wishes, people and the law tend to look the other way. This is NOT justice. They are both the same crime, rape. I know justice is never going to be perfect, the point is we need to be alert to the emotions that cloud judgment.

Back to Vick: Vick is a pretty bad case, I agree he needs some serious punishment. But it has to be tempered by how other people are treated. I say 1 year TOPS in prison for the animal rights portion of his crime. Maybe 6 months. I've seen cases locally where people kept large numbers of animals and allowed them to starve to death. They got a couple months in jail, and a court order to stay away from all animals.

I don't have a clear opinion about animal rights, I'm a little confused. I'm for hunting and brats. I just think whatever policy we decide on ought to be applied uniformly to ALL incidents of gratuitous suffering by animals.

[Rastak]

I say give him the recommended guidelines plus a some for the aggrevating circumstances. Judges words, not mine. He'll get a year and a half for the federal stuff at least and hopefully 2 or 3 for the local stuff. After 5 years of thinking about it in a cell he can then move on to a happy and healthy law abiding life. This is one sick dude and so are his friends. What fun bunch of guys to hang out with.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Rastak, I don't know if you are a strong advocate for animal rights.

If Vick actually gets sent to 5 years in prison, the people at PETA are going to have a hell of a party.

[cpk1994]

I say give him the recommended guidelines plus a some for the aggrevating circumstances. Judges words, not mine. He'll get a year and a half for the federal stuff at least and hopefully 2 or 3 for the local stuff. After 5 years of thinking about it in a cell he can then move on to a happy and healthy law abiding life. This is one sick dude and so are his friends. What fun bunch of guys to hang out with.If you think he will serve his entire sentence, you are out of your mind. He spend a year in prison TOPS out of what he is actually sentenced.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If you think he will serve his entire sentence, you are out of your mind. He spend a year in prison TOPS out of what he is actually sentenced.

There could be a lot of poop shoot violations in one year. Maybe there will still be justice for Rastak, a rough justice.

[Rastak]

I say give him the recommended guidelines plus a some for the aggrevating circumstances. Judges words, not mine. He'll get a year and a half for the federal stuff at least and hopefully 2 or 3 for the local stuff. After 5 years of thinking about it in a cell he can then move on to a happy and healthy law abiding life. This is one sick dude and so are his friends. What fun bunch of guys to hang out with.If you think he will serve his entire sentence, you are out of your mind. He spend a year in prison TOPS out of what he is actually sentenced.


No way in hell. No way. The guys who first copped a plea will get that and more. Judge already said the details of this opperation will be considered agrevating circumstances in sentencing. My understanding is that in federal cases you don't serve 10% of the time and then leave, you serve most of what you are senteced to. Furthermore, four guys started this venture. Three have admitted it and all three indicate Vick ran the show. You are sadly mistaken if you think he'll get 1 year. I think that's why his lawyers are pushing so hard now. It ain't gonna happen. Grand jury meets monday to discuss racketeering charges. If he doesn't cop a plea and take his 16-18 months he's gonna get 3-5 years. I'd be shitting my drawers about now if I were Vick.



Oh, HH. I'm not really an animal rights person other than to be a firm believer that no living thing should be killed and torured for a human's amusement. For instance I don't believe my dog actually owns any property, but he has a right to live his life.

I know I sound real passionate about this and I am. This is some really sick shit. I didn't know much about organized dogfighting until this case. Hell, a dog fight ain't something you want to see. When I was a kid and there was a dog fight it was a VERY BAD THING. Scary bad.

[packinpatland]

In addition, the Vick defense team is attempting to gain some insight into how the NFL and the Falcons will proceed if the six-year veteran pleads guilty. In that regard, they are making little or no headway, at least at the league level.

You'd think that how the Falcons and the NFL proceed would be the least of his worries. It's not like doing a 'tour of duty', I doubt if they are going to leave his job open for him.
Is this the way to interpret this?

[Freak Out]

I say give him the recommended guidelines plus a some for the aggrevating circumstances. Judges words, not mine. He'll get a year and a half for the federal stuff at least and hopefully 2 or 3 for the local stuff. After 5 years of thinking about it in a cell he can then move on to a happy and healthy law abiding life. This is one sick dude and so are his friends. What fun bunch of guys to hang out with.

What are the sentencing guidelines for a crime like this? If he ends up with more than 16-18 months in the joint I'll be shocked. Now the fines should be in balance with his salary.... :lol:

I still say he may take it to court.....the jury can make some funny decisions.

[Rastak]

In addition, the Vick defense team is attempting to gain some insight into how the NFL and the Falcons will proceed if the six-year veteran pleads guilty. In that regard, they are making little or no headway, at least at the league level.

You'd think that how the Falcons and the NFL proceed would be the least of his worries. It's not like doing a 'tour of duty', I doubt if they are going to leave his job open for him.
Is this the way to interpret this?


He wants his cake and eat it too. Yea, he wants the NFL to tell him what they'll do if he pleads guilty. Does this guy live in a fantasy world? That's the least of his problems. And why should they tell him? Furthermore, he's done in Atlanta.

[Freak Out]

If you think he will serve his entire sentence, you are out of your mind. He spend a year in prison TOPS out of what he is actually sentenced.

There could be a lot of poop shoot violations in one year. Maybe there will still be justice for Rastak, a rough justice.

Not a chance in hell. His $$$$ saves him from becoming a pillow biter.

[Rastak]

Looks like the prosecutors are recommending 18-36 months. This sounds about right given the fact he's the ring leader according to the other three
criminals he went into business with.


From PFT.com

NEGOTIATIONS CONTINUE?

Though it appears that Mike Vick has opted not to plead guilty to pending federal conspiracy charges, CNN suggests that talks are ongoing.

Per CNN, the pending offer recommends a prison term of 18-36 months. Vick's lawyers are holding out for a recommended term of less than a year. Regardless, Judge Henry Hudson will have the final say on this.

CNN also reports that the Vick camp is hoping to hear from the NFL on Monday about the potential impact of a guilty plea on Vick's playing career. However, the league previously has indicated that it will not make such commitments in connection with the plea discussions.

[Partial]

Vick took a plea deal. Didn't he originally say he had nothing to do with dog fighting?

[Rastak]

Yea, he lied......



POSTED 2:32 p.m. EDT; UPDATED 2:39 p.m. EDT, August 20, 2007

VICK ADMITS GUILT

The Virginian-Pilot reports that Michael Vick has accepted a plea deal on federal conspiracy charges. But it's more than just a guilty plea. Vick is admitting that he did it. A statement from lawyer Billy Martin reads as follows:

"After consulting with his family over the weekend, Michael Vick ask that I announce today that he has reached an agreement with Federal prosecutors regarding the charges pending against him. Mr. Vick has agreed to enter a plea of Guilty to those charges and to accept full responsibility for his actions and the mistakes he has made. Michael wishes to apologizes again to everyone who has been hurt by this matter. The legal team and Mr. Vick will appear in court in Richmond on August 27th."

It's a far cry from Martin's initial statements regarding the case from July 23, when Martin had this to say: "You all heard and saw that this was the first step from Michael in proving his innocence. The indictment contains mere allegations."

In our view, Vick came clean because he realizes that there's no way he can ever return to the NFL without securing redemption, and that there can be no redemption without contrition.

The broader question is whether redemption is even available with contrition. Should he get credit for telling the truth only after it was clear that there was no way out? We don't think so.

It's unclear whether the deal includes any type of commitment from the NFL as to Vick's possible suspension, or any commitment from authorities in Virginia regarding possible charges for animal cruelty arising from eight dogs that were killed on Vick's property in April 2007, the same month in which Vick told the Commissioner that there was no dog fighting on his Surry County, Virginia property. If Vick's formal plea documents include an admission that he participated in the killings of the dogs, he's certain to face even more jail time in Virginia, where the total penalty will be up to 40 years.

The plea will be entered on August 27, at 10:30 a.m. EDT.

[packinpatland]

Shouldn't lying at least get you a 'soap in the mouth washing'?

[Rastak]

Shouldn't lying at least get you a 'soap in the mouth washing'?

Yea, he probably should. Here his lawyers were talking about how they were looking forward to clearing his name, then they turn around and say "yes, he did it".


Nice.

[Patler]

I think you see my point: Vick should be punished because he violated principles that were layed down in law. (the principle being that it is wrong to cause animals to suffer unnecessarily.) His punishment should not be determined by the degree of public outrage, but by the amount of suffering he caused.

Actually, one of the principles behind criminal punishment IS to satisfy the demands of society, in addition to punishing the wrongdoer, "satisfying" the victim and deterring others. So yes, factoring in public outrage is appropriate. Particularly in a case such as this that has no specifically identifiable human victim. Society is the victim, and retribution is ours.

[Patler]

Back to Vick: Vick is a pretty bad case, I agree he needs some serious punishment. But it has to be tempered by how other people are treated. I say 1 year TOPS in prison for the animal rights portion of his crime. Maybe 6 months. I've seen cases locally where people kept large numbers of animals and allowed them to starve to death. They got a couple months in jail, and a court order to stay away from all animals.

I don't have a clear opinion about animal rights, I'm a little confused. I'm for hunting and brats. I just think whatever policy we decide on ought to be applied uniformly to ALL incidents of gratuitous suffering by animals.

There is a lot of difference between Vick, who intentionally tortured animals apparently for the thrill of watching them suffer and die, and someone who through ignorance, poverty or whatever lacks the ability to care for the animals they have.

Correlating it to humans, the ones you describe are more like manslaughter or some lesser degree of homicide. Many do not intend or even wish for the suffering and death of their animals. Vick's was more like 1st degree or intentional homicide. He intended to kill them in terrible ways.

Punishing one significantly more than the other is fair and just.

[Brohm]

It will be interesting to see what jail time Vick gets. Remember the dog fighting/inhumane treatment of animals is the nastiest headline but probably the most minor (in legal terms) of the offenses. They got mulitple interstate violations involving conspiracy/illicit gambling/transport of said animals across state lines for said illicit gambling. What was the final count? 90? (really I don't remember). Oh yeah now let's tack on the additional charges for abusing/killing the dogs when he was done with the illegal transport/illegal dogfighting/illegal gambling.

That's where the 40 years came from...the grand total. That's a lot of soap bars (and whatever else) crammed where the sun don't shine.

[Kiwon]

It will be a while before the whole story comes out but I will be very interested to hear about two aspects of this case:

1. The transition from a state and local investigation to a federal one. The Feds stepped in after local officials never executed some search warrants and eventually let them expire. Does this indicate that some Surry county officials, police included, were attempting a cover-up?

It seems that the Feds were able to collect a mountain of evidence in a short period of time. Why couldn't state and local investigators do the same thing?

2. How much behind the scenes pressure, if any, did the NFL and its supporters put on prosecutors to get a plea deal done?

The case began in April as a drug investigation when the dog fighting activity came to light. Having guilty pleas from all four defendants by August (the preseason) is a boon for the NFL. April to August, 4 months, that's very fast.

Had this case gone to trial, it would have been ugly on so many levels and had the potential to really color the season. The continuing bad press is the last thing that the NFL would want.

One of the few things left is determining Vick's playing status. Does he get a lifetime ban or not. This decision could be the defining moment for Roger Goodell as NFL commissioner. He has the perfect chance to send a message to the other Michael Vicks out there and, more importantly, to the fans about the extent to which society will hold the NFL players accountable for their off-the-field behavior.

Are these athletes heroes and role models? Of course, they are. But will we then treat them as such and hold them accountable for their actions?

[Rastak]

It will be a while before the whole story comes out but I will be very interested to hear about two aspects of this case:

1. The transition from a state and local investigation to a federal one. The Feds stepped in after local officials never executed some search warrants and eventually let them expire. Does this indicate that some Surry county officials, police included, were attempting a cover-up?

It seems that the Feds were able to collect a mountain of evidence in a short period of time. Why couldn't state and local investigators do the same thing?

2. How much behind the scenes pressure, if any, did the NFL and its supporters put on prosecutors to get a plea deal done?

The case began in April as a drug investigation when the dog fighting activity came to light. Having guilty pleas from all four defendants by August (the preseason) is a boon for the NFL. April to August, 4 months, that's very fast.

Had this case gone to trial, it would have been ugly on so many levels and had the potential to really color the season. The continuing bad press is the last thing that the NFL would want.

One of the few things left is determining Vick's playing status. Does he get a lifetime ban or not. This decision could be the defining moment for Roger Goodell as NFL commissioner. He has the perfect chance to send a message to the other Michael Vicks out there and, more importantly, to the fans about the extent to which society will hold the NFL players accountable for their off-the-field behavior.

Are these athletes heroes and role models? Of course, they are. But will we then treat them as such and hold them accountable for their actions?



1. Not sure about a coverup but they certainly came off as idiots. It's possible they wanted to sweep in under the rug to avoid a legal battle a very rich man. The feds could care less HOW much money you have....they have more.

2. I doubt the NFL had much to do with this, although they benefit from not having the horrific details coming out of a trial.


The judge in this case is fairly heavy handed from what I read. He already warned the other two clowns that he reserved the right to depart upward due to the aggrevating circumstances and outragous conduct. Vick was running the show so I doubt he gets a lighter sentence. He'll be accountable.

[Freak Out]

I'm hearing now that Vick has NOT agreed to a deal just yet. Anyone else getting this?

[Rastak]

I'm hearing now that Vick has NOT agreed to a deal just yet. Anyone else getting this?


No, not hearing that at all. His attorney went on TV and stated he agreed. Where are you hearing this conflicting info?

[MJZiggy]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2007-08-20-86403916_x.htm


http://www.ajc.com/wireless/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/08/20/0921_vickticket.html

[Merlin]

Now that Vick reversed his lie, he will now become the "victim" in all of this. First it will be race and when that doesn't fly it will be because ge has ADD or some shit. You watch, this is all going to be a damn circus. "Poor Michael Vick thought the rules didn't apply to him and now look, he is suffering. Poor Michael Vick".

Mark my words...

[packinpatland]

This is the part I just don't understand. This is the first time he's been 'caught'. Hasn't it been documented that he's been into this for years?
Somehow, the sentence should reflect such........."I plead guilty, been doing it for years, would still be doing it, if you all hadn't caught me".

The official said such a sentence would be more than is usually recommended for first-time offenders and reflects the government’s attempt to show that animal abusers will receive more than a slap on the wrist. However, U.S. District Judge Henry Hudson is not bound by prosecutors’ recommendations or the sentencing guidelines and will have the final say on Vick’s sentence

[GBRulz]

I don't think the race card will be much of an issue with this one. Vick admitted his guilt to this digusting crime. It doesn't matter if you are black, white or orange.

I hope Goodell really send a strong message and bans him from the NFL for life.

[Rastak]

This is the part I just don't understand. This is the first time he's been 'caught'. Hasn't it been documented that he's been into this for years?
Somehow, the sentence should reflect such........."I plead guilty, been doing it for years, would still be doing it, if you all hadn't caught me".

The official said such a sentence would be more than is usually recommended for first-time offenders and reflects the government’s attempt to show that animal abusers will receive more than a slap on the wrist. However, U.S. District Judge Henry Hudson is not bound by prosecutors’ recommendations or the sentencing guidelines and will have the final say on Vick’s sentence


1st time offender means he's never been convicted of a crime.

[esoxx]

I don't think the race card will be much of an issue with this one. Vick admitted his guilt to this digusting crime. It doesn't matter if you are black, white or orange.

I hope Goodell really send a strong message and bans him from the NFL for life.

Terrance Moore, sportswriter for the Atlanta Constitution, was on ESPN this afternoon and said just about everywhere he's been in the black community in Atlanta, most seem to feel Vick is being unfairly signaled out.

I guess nothing much surprises me any more.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I also hope Vick gets banned for the NFL for the rest of his life. This crime is disgusting and he should be punished severely.

[Freak Out]

I'm hearing now that Vick has NOT agreed to a deal just yet. Anyone else getting this?


No, not hearing that at all. His attorney went on TV and stated he agreed. Where are you hearing this conflicting info?

On the way back from lunch I heard someone on ESPN radio say he had not accepted a deal yet....that was after I heard earlier that he had and would make it official next Monday in court.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The prosecution used racketeering charges to force a guilty plea on the dog fighting.

The racketeering charge was phony. Well, obviously not according to the letter of the law; but it was an unfair tactic by the prosecution, they stretched the intent of the law. These punks weren't racketeers, they were petty thugs. The REAL crime here was animal abuse, dog fighting.

Ummm, some might say it is good that a trial was avoided, after-all, Vick looks guilty as sin. But justice means that a accused person is entitled to a trial before a jury. It would have been better to give Vick his day in court and PROVE the animal abuse charges.

[Rastak]

The prosecution used racketeering charges to force a guilty plea on the dog fighting.

The racketeering charge was phony. Well, obviously not according to the letter of the law; but it was an unfair tactic by the prosecution, they stretched the intent of the law. These punks weren't racketeers, they were petty thugs. The REAL crime here was animal abuse, dog fighting.

Ummm, some might say it is good that a trial was avoided, after-all, Vick looks guilty as sin. But justice means that a accused person is entitled to a trial before a jury. It would have been better to give Vick his day in court and PROVE the animal abuse charges.


And then shove 10 years up his ass for the expense. By the way, he wasn't charged with animal abuse.

[digitaldean]

Give it time about the animal abuse charges. The linguine-spined DA in Virginia may now finally grow a pair and indict him on the animal abuse charges.

Those can keep Vick in a Virginia prison after he is done with the federal rap. That would effectively put the last nail(s) in his NFL career.

[Patler]

The prosecution used racketeering charges to force a guilty plea on the dog fighting.

The racketeering charge was phony. Well, obviously not according to the letter of the law; but it was an unfair tactic by the prosecution, they stretched the intent of the law. These punks weren't racketeers, they were petty thugs. The REAL crime here was animal abuse, dog fighting.


I'm not sure how you can be so positive about that. This could very well have been a large interstate dog fighting operation. One interview I saw with an undercover agent or informant witness (I can't remember which) said Vick and his kennel were top level players in the dogfighting world.

I don't understand why you think they were just "petty thugs". With the millions of dollars Vick has, he could very well be a "kingpin" in the dogfighting world. This would also explain how the Feds got involved so quickly. They may have been following him already, and were forced to make their move when the locals got involved.

As quickly as this turned against Vick, I suspect all the individuals had a lot of jail time riding on the outcome, and they knew it. I suspect they were much, much more culpable than what we know right now. These things don't turn that quickly unless they are in it up to their necks. Good defense attorneys make a lot of headway when the prosecutors "over-charge" the defendant. I suspect they had only scratched the surface of Vick's involvement with the charges to date.

This all fell into line much, much more quickly than it would have if they were just petty thugs. These guys are pleading out for recommendations from the prosecutor of a few years prison time because they each know they could be put away for much longer, not on trumped up charges, but based on what they know they did. Their attorneys have probably told them to take the deals and run, it will never get any better than this.

We may learn a lot more about the cases against each when the sentencing hearings come up. Often you do.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Patler, if these geniuses were really running a complex, mafia-like organization then why would the DA offer a plea deal?? Put this crime syndicate behind bars for 25 years lest they strike again with their ingenious schemes.

Rastak pointed-out that they operated dog fights for 6 years. Hundreds of people must have known what was going on. I suspect they weren't busted because dog fighting, at least in the past, was a low-priority for the cops.

Ummm. you are certainly correct that I don't know the details, I could be wrong.

I suspect Vick is more of a damn fool than a master criminal. I really, really doubt this was about making additional millions for Mr. Vick.

[Rastak]

Actually Patler these idiots violated a cardinal rule, only break one law at a time. The initial investigation was for drugs against one these bright individuals. They showed up with a warrent and found a full blown dog fighting operation. The locals were idiots but the feds figured out it was an interstate operation and the next thing you know, lowlifes (including head lowlife Vick) are pleading guilty and getting ready for a nice stay in a federal pen.

[Harlan Huckleby]

They showed up with a warrent and found a full blown dog fighting operation..

OK. Then prove it in court.



the feds figured out it was an interstate operation

then make the racketeering charge stick.

[Freak Out]

These guy were sadistic idiots. Bottom line. People have been fighting animals for thousands of years so they can GAMBLE and make some loot. When a dog, lion, bear or fucking wombat can't cut it you either breed it or kill it because they cost $$$ to feed and keep. Most folks just shoot the suckers or let them run like the mushers do here in the north. They don't hang them upside down in a bucket of water or electrocute them for fucks sake. Stupid sick fucks.

[Patler]

Patler, if these geniuses were really running a complex, mafia-like organization than why would the DA offer a plea deal?? Put this crime syndicate behind bars for 25 years lest they strike again with their ingenious schemes.

Rastak pointed-out that they operated dog fights for 6 years. Hundreds of people must have known what was going on. I suspect they weren't busted because dog fighting, at least in the past, was a low-priority for the cops.

Ummm. you are certainly correct that I don't know the details, I could be wrong.

I suspect Vick is more of a damn fool than a master criminal. I really, really doubt this was about making additional millions for Mr. Vick.


I truly believe we have seen only the surface. The plea deals are there because the Feds were forced to move before they were ready. They may not want to compromise further investigations of still others. There can be many, many reasons.

If they truly were just petty criminals, why would Vick and his lawyer not fight it out? Vick can afford the best. Good defense attorneys get out and out acquittals from juries when prosecutors can be made to look overly heavy handed.

This caved in so quickly on Vick that he MUST be deeply involved. I am absolutely convinced of it. He wouldn't accept incarceration otherwise. It doesn't make any sense.

[MJZiggy]

The proof is there otherwise there is no way Vick goes for the plea bargain. If they can't prove it, he wouldn't take the deal and would be acquitted. There's too much at stake for him to try and deal unless he knows he's done for. He doesn't HAVE to go to court if he doesn't want to.

[Rastak]

They showed up with a warrent and found a full blown dog fighting operation..

OK. Then prove it in court.



the feds figured out it was an interstate operation

then make the racketeering charge stick.



Ummmm, why prove it in court, the assholes all pleaded guilty?


Trust me, they would have....why do you think Michael Prick would suddenly plead guilty? They had seven witnesses lined up to detail it all.


What's up with your argument anyway, you think he was innocent of the charges and the anticipated charges? I think his high powered lawyer knew they had him dead to rights. ON ALL COUNTS.

[MasonCrosby]

i predict vick accepts the plea deal, comes out of jail clean and repentent, gets a second chance with the tampa bay buccs...who change their name to the tampa bay quarterbacks...

they then run plays with garcia behind center, vick lined up as a running back, simms at TE and gradkowski in the slot...

:lol: :lol:

[Rastak]

i predict vick accepts the plea deal, comes out of jail clean and repentent, gets a second chance with the tampa bay buccs...who change their name to the tampa bay quarterbacks...

they then run plays with garcia behind center, vick lined up as a running back, simms at TE and gradkowski in the slot...

:lol: :lol:


I predict he never plays in the NFL again. He will be in prison for 2008 probably through OTA's 2009, suspended for 2009 and maybe 2010 and who the hell would want this shithead in 2011?

[MJZiggy]

If he pleads guilty to interstate gambling, he could be done, period, no matter when he gets out. That could carry a lifetime ban.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Patler, Obviously there is a possibility that the feds could succeed on racketeering charges. Maybe a jury would see it as excessive, but you never know. Vick is probably justifiably afraid of being sent up the river for 20 years.


slightly related: back in the 80's , the feds were confiscating yachts when they found a joint onboard. It was a overzealous application of a law in the drug war frenzy. The intent of the law was fine, confiscate property fascilitating the drug trade. Sometimes prosecuters/cops overstep and get away with it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I seriously am curious if Vick will play on the prison football team. That would be cool, could happen this fall.

[Rastak]

Patler, Obviously there is a possibility that the feds could succeed on racketeering charges. Maybe a jury would see it as excessive, but you never know. Vick is probably justifiably afraid of being sent up the river for 20 years.


slightly related: back in the 80's , the feds were confiscating yachts when they found a joint onboard. It was a overzealous application of a law in the drug war frenzy. The intent of the law was fine, confiscate property fascilitating the drug trade. Sometimes prosecuters/cops overstep and get away with it.


Actually I agree with you completely HH on that one. I just don't agree in this case.

[MasonCrosby]

remember when we all thought and had to worry about with the Vicks was that Marcus was the bad apple on that tree?

maybe he was just following his brother's example in some areas?

[Patler]

back in the 80's , the feds were confiscating yachts when they found a joint onboard. It was a overzealous application of a law in the drug war frenzy. The intent of the law was fine, confiscate property fascilitating the drug trade. Sometimes prosecuters/cops overstep and get away with it.


Urban legend, and a false one w/r/t the confiscations "sticking". Makes a good story, though.

[Harlan Huckleby]

back in the 80's , the feds were confiscating yachts when they found a joint onboard. It was a overzealous application of a law in the drug war frenzy. The intent of the law was fine, confiscate property fascilitating the drug trade. Sometimes prosecuters/cops overstep and get away with it.

Urban legend, and a false one w/r/t the confiscations "sticking". Makes a good story, though.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE3D81138F932A35756C0A96E9482 60

New Policy on Illegal Drugs Permits U.S. to Seize Boats
AP Published: May 1, 1988
LEAD: The Reagan Administration has toughened its drug enforcement by allowing the Coast Guard to seize any boat or ship on which even a small amount of contraband is found, Transportation Secretary Jim Burnley said today.

The Reagan Administration has toughened its drug enforcement by allowing the Coast Guard to seize any boat or ship on which even a small amount of contraband is found, Transportation Secretary Jim Burnley said today.

Since the policy was enacted April 11, the Coast Guard has confiscated nine vessels - including a $300,000 yacht off the coast of Florida - that would not previously have been seized, officials said.

A confiscated boat must be returned to its owners only if the owner can disprove allegations that illegal drugs were found on board. Otherwise, the boat is turned over to the Customs Service, which can sell it at an auction.

[Patler]

back in the 80's , the feds were confiscating yachts when they found a joint onboard. It was a overzealous application of a law in the drug war frenzy. The intent of the law was fine, confiscate property fascilitating the drug trade. Sometimes prosecuters/cops overstep and get away with it.

Urban legend, and a false one w/r/t the confiscations "sticking". Makes a good story, though.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE3D81138F932A35756C0A96E9482 60

New Policy on Illegal Drugs Permits U.S. to Seize Boats
AP Published: May 1, 1988
LEAD: The Reagan Administration has toughened its drug enforcement by allowing the Coast Guard to seize any boat or ship on which even a small amount of contraband is found, Transportation Secretary Jim Burnley said today.

The Reagan Administration has toughened its drug enforcement by allowing the Coast Guard to seize any boat or ship on which even a small amount of contraband is found, Transportation Secretary Jim Burnley said today.

Since the policy was enacted April 11, the Coast Guard has confiscated nine vessels - including a $300,000 yacht off the coast of Florida - that would not previously have been seized, officials said.

A confiscated boat must be returned to its owners only if the owner can disprove allegations that illegal drugs were found on board. Otherwise, the boat is turned over to the Customs Service, which can sell it at an auction.

Sorry, but your article means nothing. I never disputed the existence of the law, or that it could be used when smaller amounts of drugs were found than previously. The law was used extensively in the late 1980s early 1990s. It continues to be used in modified form today.

What I do dispute and characterize as an urban legend is your assertion that it was used to confiscate yachts "when they found a joint onboard". Those simply did not stick.

To confiscate vehicles (including boats) or "ill gotten gains" such as jewelry, etc. the amount of contraband had to meet the levels required to qualify as sufficient to infer intent to sell. A joint or a small amount that one would have for their own personal use was not enough.

I believe, but am not certain, that it has now been modified to require an amount sufficient for a higher standard of "drug trafficing" not just the lesser amount required to infer intent to sell.

[Rastak]

Was Pacman Jones's confiscation of his ride related to this law? In a funny note, he ended up buying it back in an auction....LOL

[Scott Campbell]

It would have been better to give Vick his day in court and PROVE the animal abuse charges.


Nobody put a gun to his head. And nobody threatened to drown, hang or electorcute him. His guilty plea was voluntary. He had the right to plead guilty. His handlers say he's all remorsefull and stuff now.

[Scott Campbell]

They showed up with a warrent and found a full blown dog fighting operation..

OK. Then prove it in court.




Guilty pleas count as proof.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The guilty plea means little regarding the charges he plead guilty to. It's possible he had ZERO to do with abusing animals, or no direct involvment with the operations of dog fighting, yet it still made sense to plead guilty.

He plead guilty because of the threat of racketeering charges. If he was just involved with the money end, he would still be subject to a draconian prison sentence.


I'm not defending Vick. Maybe there is massive evidence that he abused dogs. I am just disturbed by the process. I wish Vick had his day in court.

[Harlan Huckleby]

What I do dispute and characterize as an urban legend is your assertion that it was used to confiscate yachts "when they found a joint onboard". Those simply did not stick.

To confiscate vehicles (including boats) or "ill gotten gains" such as jewelry, etc. the amount of contraband had to meet the levels required to qualify as sufficient to infer intent to sell. A joint or a small amount that one would have for their own personal use was not enough.

Patler, what you are saying is in direct contradiction of the 1988 article I quoted from the NY Times. Do you know who runs the NY Times? Jews. You think you know more about the law than Jews? I think not.

Well, I don't know. I certainly remember reading stories about yacht confiscations. Perhaps those confiscations were ultimately overturned.

[GrnBay007]

I wish Vick had his day in court.

Vick didn't want his day in court. He didn't want all that nasty garbage coming out in complete detail by the witnesses.

Next we will see Part II. Vick will try to appeal to the public by saying how wrong he was and how sorry he is.

....and there will be some that will believe it.

[Rastak]

The guilty plea means little regarding the charges he plead guilty to. It's possible he had ZERO to do with abusing animals, or no direct involvment with the operations of dog fighting, yet it still made sense to plead guilty.

He plead guilty because of the threat of racketeering charges. If he was just involved with the money end, he would still be subject to a draconian prison sentence.


I'm not defending Vick. Maybe there is massive evidence that he abused dogs. I am just disturbed by the process. I wish Vick had his day in court.



His day in court is next Monday. Why do wish so hard in your heart of hearts that he wouldn't plead guilty. Dude, he did it. His pals who were there signed statements saying he hung a few dogs and when a couple wouldn't die he drowned them. One he eletrocuted with a car battery.

They were there and you weren't but I'm to believe your doubt rather than their stated fact, under oath no less?


You're losing me again.

[Rastak]

Mike Lupica


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If he's not familiar with reality, it's time to bone up





Michael Vick takes a fall now he never thought he would take, not for five minutes at the start of this. Michael Vick now finds out that this is how it works in the real world, the world of accountability for the kind of no-account people who thought they could run a sick dogfighting ring known as the Bad Newz Kennels and get away with it. This really is how it works in the real world, even for a big sports star, not the Barry Bonds world, where friends go to jail for you instead of rolling on you the way Vick's friends rolled on him.

Michael Vick, No.7 of the Falcons, is the one who thought he would roll here, the way he could roll out of the pocket and make the biggest and most famous football stadiums in this country come to a stop. The way he could make tacklers stop, and miss, as he ran past them. Vick wasn't a huge winner yet in the National Football League, and maybe never would have been. But you don't have to win anymore in sports to be the kind of star Vick had become, in a very short time.

From the time Vick was a teenager, from the time he first started making tacklers miss with his dazzling speed and talent and almost a jazz man's gift of improvisation, he had existed in the world of stars and celebrity, where the rules are supposed to be different.

Please remember what he said through his lawyers, because he was lawyered up good by then, on courthouse steps not so long ago:

"Today I pleaded innocent to allegations made against me ... I look forward to clearing my good name. I respectfully ask all of you to hold your judgment until all the facts are shown. Above all, I'd like to say to my mom I'm sorry for what she's gone through in this most trying of times. It has caused pain to my family and I apologize to my family. I also want to apologize to my teammates for not being with them at the beginning of spring training."

So he said he was sorry to his mom and he probably said the same to the commissioner of his league, Roger Goodell, and told him that he knew nothing of this dogfighting house that he was accused of funding, on a day when he absolutely should have told Goodell the truth. Michael Vick didn't come out and say that he was innocent at the courthouse that day, he said he had pleaded innocent. That is lawyer talk. Judges hear a lot of it, before trials and after trials and sometimes for trials that never happen, from people a lot less rich and famous than Vick, but with the same exact thing to lose, which means their freedom.

There will be all this speculation about what kind of football future Vick has now that he has pleaded guilty to these federal dogfighting charges, involving conspiracy and interstate commerce and all the rest of it, charges that can get you five years in prison but will probably get Vick just one. There will be all this speculation about what kind of player he might be after doing time. But for as long as he is in jail, Vick ought to think about what kind of person he wants to be when he gets out, whether he finds another team that wants him or not. He ought to wonder what kind of person got involved in something as terrible as dogfighting, however much he was involved, ask himself what kind of athlete thinks that is some kind of acceptable sport.

He sure ought to think about what kind of friends he had or thought he had, ones to whom he always said he had to be so loyal. This case isn't about race, even though there are people who want it to be. It is about values and judgment and skewed definitions of friendship, and accountability. If it isn't some kind of alarm sounding throughout sports, where a lot of guys, white and black and Hispanic, aren't taking a closer look at all those around them, it ought to be.

You can talk about the irony of the public, a public that loves the violence of pro football, finding a different kind of violence shameful and unacceptable. You know there are athletes who have committed other crimes, been behind the wheels of cars when people died, been accused of rape, and never have seen the inside of a jail cell the way Vick will. And yet what Vick and Quanis Phillips and Purnell Peace and Tony Taylor are accused of, will plead guilty to - including the execution of "underperforming" dogs - is the behavior of bums. Sometimes you still go to jail for that.

Sometimes this is how it happens when you break the law and then think telling the truth about it is some sort of last resort.

In the end, Vick ended up with friends like Phillips, Peace, Taylor. When the law came after Bonds for steroids, he had Greg Anderson, personal trainer, running interference for him. Greg Anderson: Who seems willing to sit forever rather than roll on baseball's all-time home run king, perhaps say that Bonds knew exactly what performance-enhancing drugs he was taking, and thus perjured himself in front of a grand jury when he said he did not.

Nobody is suggesting that what Bonds did is close to what Vick did. Nobody is comparing steroids to torturing animals. But there are laws about steroids the way there are about dogfighting. And laws about telling the truth. Bonds has a right, even as the grand jury still comes after him, to think that he exists above some laws. Michael Vick no longer does.

[Rastak]

Now here is a solid take.....




Kevin Hench
FOXSports.com


Like so many of Michael Vick's third-down conversion attempts, his legal defense against dogfighting charges ended Monday with a punt.

By the time all his so-called friends were done flipping, it was 4th-and-38. Even the elusive Vick had to realize there was no scrambling out of this one. (The prosecution doesn't view him as a flight risk because he has no friends left to drive the white Bronco.)
The fact that Vick's friends flipped so readily has led some of his defenders to decry the lack of loyalty in the Vick posse. Hey, here's a heads up: if your friends enjoy watching dogs tear each other apart, they might not turn out to be the highest character guys when you need them to have your back.

And those, like Donovan McNabb and Emmitt Smith, who were quick to condemn Vick's associates should bear in mind that Vick certainly seemed prepared to throw his entire posse under the bus to "clear his good name." But plea deals don't go from the top down. A drug kingpin can't get a lesser sentence by rolling on his street peddlers. Vick financed the operation. He was the big fish.

While the guilty plea will cost Vick his freedom for a to-be-determined length of time, it has liberated those of us writing about the case from the annoying and clunky and increasingly insulting use of "allegedly."

And thus concludes this chapter of the long, sad saga of a bad guy who was worse than we thought.

When Vick settled a civil lawsuit brought by a woman who said he'd knowingly given her herpes (and that he'd entered clinics for treatment under the alias Ron Mexico), it spawned a lot of jokes and a jersey-purchasing frenzy.

When Vick flipped off the fans in Atlanta, he joined a long line of frustrated athletes who had responded to the boo birds with the dirty digit.

When he refused to hand over a water bottle at the airport in Miami and the bottle was later determined to have a secret stash for contraband in it, it seemed more stupid than dangerous.

But breeding dogs for the sick satisfaction of watching them fight and then executing the underperformers? This is the back story of a serial killer, not a mere coach killer.

From the very first day this story broke, it seemed impossible to imagine any other outcome. Vick bred dogs. He owned the property where dogfighting had clearly taken place. He wasn't breeding these poor creatures for the Westminster Dog Show.

Perhaps realizing he would be unable to answer the prosecution's first question — "Why, sir, did you breed dogs?" — Vick copped.

The guilty plea raises several questions: 1. Why not go to trial? 2. What is an appropriate punishment? 3. Will he ever play in the NFL again?

Could Vick have won at trial?

Well, clearly his attorneys didn't think so. The fact that his defense team — the ones with the most to gain financially by a protracted trial — recommended that Vick accept a plea speaks volumes about his overwhelming guilt. His lawyers must have felt completely incapable of mounting a credible defense.

A guilty defendant knows he can't rely on exculpatory evidence for acquittal, but surely someone as rich as Vick could assemble a legal dream team to muddle the prosecution's case and confuse a jury.

Couldn't Robert Shapiro, F. Lee Bailey, Barry Scheck and Alan Dershowitz convince any 12 people who couldn't get out of jury duty that these dogs had committed suicide?

Possibly. But this trial promised to feature one thing the O.J. Simpson case lacked: damning eyewitness testimony.

Imagine if Al Cowlings and Robert Kardashian and five others were lined up to provide testimony against O.J., and you get a sense of what the Vick defense team would have been up against.

But given that leniency doesn't seem to be a component of the prosecution's plea offer, what did Vick have to lose by throwing the Hail Mary and going to trial? He would have had to sit there and endure in painstaking detail — and gruesome photos, one of which he may have been in — the carnage of Bad Newz Kennels.

Though it seems impossible that he'll ever salvage his career or reputation, a blow-by-blow public accounting of his behavior could only have made things worse.

Will the sentence fit the crime?

Reports have varied as to what the prosecution will ask for in terms of jail time — anywhere from 12 to 36 months — but one thing seems clear: Vick will be punished more severely than anyone who has ever been convicted of these crimes.

Vick can say goodbye to much — if not all — of the remaining money on the 10-year, $130M contract he signed in 2004, and the Falcons may try to recover some of the $22M already paid Vick as part of his signing bonus. It's safe to say that Arthur Blank believes Vick has violated the personal-conduct clause of his contract. It seems doubtful that, once Vick formalizes his plea next week, the Falcons will ever pay him another penny.

Given the loss of endorsements, Vick will likely lose over $100M as a result of his crimes. Major American corporations don't get hit with fines like that for even the most egregious violations.

Vick's crimes were not committed in the heat of the moment. He didn't snap. He didn't do too much meth or lose his mind with jealously. He matter-of-factly bred dogs to be used for his entertainment in a bloodsport.

A couple years in jail and all his net worth sounds about right to me.

Will Vick ever play in the NFL again?

No. How could he?

Even if the gambling aspect of the dogfighting ring does not earn Vick a lifetime ban, there just don't seem to be any circumstances that could lead him back under center in the NFL.

He's simply not a good enough quarterback to merit the s---storm signing him would unleash. What owner would invite the public backlash to acquire a QB with a 75.7 career rating?

Terrell Owens is an elite receiver. Jerry Jones deemed him worth the headache. Pacman Jones has the tools to be a shutdown corner. As long as he's not in prison or suspended, someone will give him a job. But in six seasons in the NFL, Michael Vick has thrown 71 touchdown passes and turned the ball over 79 times (52 picks, 27 lost fumbles).

Before all hell broke loose, there were a lot of NFL fans who thought the Falcons made a mistake in sending Matt Schaub to Houston. Vick was already a borderline starting NFL quarterback. Now he's radioactive.

When Vick submits to his plea deal next Monday, the judge is not obligated to accept the terms. He could instead opt for a harsher sentence.

Vick will want mercy from the judge. Which is more than Vick gave those dogs.

[Patler]

Patler, what you are saying is in direct contradiction of the 1988 article I quoted from the NY Times. Do you know who runs the NY Times? Jews. You think you know more about the law than Jews? I think not.


Interesting comment for you to make, since you do not know me, you do not know my ethnicity, you do not know my religious affiliation, you do not know my education and you do not know my profession(s).

[Patler]

The guilty plea means little regarding the charges he plead guilty to. It's possible he had ZERO to do with abusing animals, or no direct involvment with the operations of dog fighting, yet it still made sense to plead guilty.

He plead guilty because of the threat of racketeering charges. If he was just involved with the money end, he would still be subject to a draconian prison sentence.


I'm not defending Vick. Maybe there is massive evidence that he abused dogs. I am just disturbed by the process. I wish Vick had his day in court.

Good defense attorneys, which Vick certainly can afford, do not recommend guilty pleas that are likely to result in penalties greater than their clients actually deserve. It is just the opposite, they plead out because their attorneys know their client is guilty of things that will send them away for longer than the deal will.

Vick apparently is throwing in the towel very early in this process. He is giving up his freedom, likely his career, tremendous amounts of money and his "good name" without putting up a fight. Do you really think he would do that because of the "threat" of being charged by the prosecutors with something he didn't do?

MSNBC had an article stating the plea deal was agreed to now and very quickly when it became known that a second grand jury was scheduled to convene this week to consider yet more charges against Vick. With the deal it is unlikely the GJ will convene.

I believe there is a huge iceberg here, which is Vick's involvement in illegal activities. We are seeing only the small part that is above the surface.

[cpk1994]

i predict vick accepts the plea deal, comes out of jail clean and repentent, gets a second chance with the tampa bay buccs...who change their name to the tampa bay quarterbacks...

they then run plays with garcia behind center, vick lined up as a running back, simms at TE and gradkowski in the slot...

:lol: :lol:


I predict he never plays in the NFL again. He will be in prison for 2008 probably through OTA's 2009, suspended for 2009 and maybe 2010 and who the hell would want this shithead in 2011?

You obviously underestmate the GM's in the NFL. ITs all about winning and the bottom line. If after he gets done serving his time he can go out and prove he still has some of his skills, some GM will take a chance, previous history be damned. I mean, TT signed Koren Robinson even wiith a DUI and prbation violation which TT knew was a 1 year suspension. I predict Vick will be back playing football somewhere, even if it means the CFL.

[Joemailman]

Vick will not play in the NFL again. The NFL is about winning. It's also about money. Lots of money. Money from sponsors and television contracts. Vick is toast here. Could he play in the CFL? I don't know. I'm not sure how big this story is playing north of the border.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Vick didn't want his day in court. He didn't want all that nasty garbage coming out in complete detail by the witnesses.

Vick didn't want to appear in court on the RACKETEERING charges, the club that was used to force him to plead guilty to the lesser charges.

It's possible he could have been convicted of racketeering, sent to prison for 20 years. "Racketeering" was intended to mean large crime organizations, doing millions of dollars of business in say, drug trade, controlling many cities. The racketeering laws were invented to convict mafia kingpins who were otherwise too difficult to directly connect to criminal activity. In my opinion, the prosecutors misused this law to deny Vick a fair trial. If the gang-that-couldn't-shoot-straight really were big-time racketeers, then hell, send them all to prison for 20 years.

Vick had NOTHING to lose by taking the dogfighting charges to trial. If OJ could get off, so might have Vick.


Next we will see Part II. Vick will try to appeal to the public by saying how wrong he was and how sorry he is.
....and there will be some that will believe it.

What would it take for you to believe that Vick was sincerely remorseful? Or do you forever reject this as a possibility?

[Harlan Huckleby]

His day in court is next Monday. Why do wish so hard in your heart of hearts that he wouldn't plead guilty. Dude, he did it.

I agree he did it. I've already convicted him in my mind. I would be perfectly happy if he had pleaded guilty to orgainizing the gambling and dogfighting because overwhelming evidence was amassed against him for these crimes.

But that's not what happened. The prosecution denied him a fair trial on the dogfighting charges with phony but technically effective racketeering charges. That to my mind is not justice.

[Zool]

Vick didn't want his day in court. He didn't want all that nasty garbage coming out in complete detail by the witnesses.

Vick didn't want to appear in court on the RACKETEERING charges, the club that was used to force him to plead guilty to the lesser charges.

It's possible he could have been convicted of racketeering, sent to prison for 20 years. "Racketeering" was intended to mean large crime organizations, doing millions of dollars of business in say, drug trade, controlling many cities. The racketeering laws were invented to convict mafia kingpins who were otherwise too difficult to directly connect to criminal activity. In my opinion, the prosecutors misused this law to deny Vick a fair trial. If the gang-that-couldn't-shoot-straight really were big-time racketeers, then hell, send them all to prison for 20 years.

Vick had NOTHING to lose by taking the dogfighting charges to trial. If OJ could get off, so might have Vick.


Next we will see Part II. Vick will try to appeal to the public by saying how wrong he was and how sorry he is.
....and there will be some that will believe it.

What would it take for you to believe that Vick was sincerely remorseful? Or do you forever reject this as a possibility?
I could honestly care less if he's remorseful, because he would have kept doing it if not caught. Being remorseful that you got caught isn't the same thing. Why exactly are you sticking up for this guy? He clearly knew what was going on, and per many eye witness accounts, he was involved.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I could honestly care less if he's remorseful, because he would have kept doing it if not caught. Being remorseful that you got caught isn't the same thing.

You have to use your own judgement about whether you believe somebody, so you are entitled to your opinion. But if you always took this attitude, then NOBODY could ever be forgiven in your mind for crimes.



Why exactly are you sticking up for this guy? He clearly knew what was going on, and per many eye witness accounts, he was involved.

I really am not defending Vick. I just think he should have gotten a trial as a matter of justice. A principle thing.

[Patler]

"Racketeering" was intended to mean large crime organizations, doing millions of dollars of business in say, drug trade, controlling many cities. The racketeering laws were invented to convict mafia kingpins who were otherwise too difficult to directly connect to criminal activity. In my opinion, the prosecutors misused this law to deny Vick a fair trial.


Oh really????
Is that why Microsoft and Best Buy have faced racketeering charges recently?
and Michael Milken of junk bonds fame?
and the cigarette industry during all their litigation regarding their research into the health effects of smoking?

There are defined crimes that can be involved in racketeering charges, particularly if a business is based on the activity, interstate commerce is involved, etc. Gambling is one such activity.

Vicks business, his kennel, seems to have based on breeding dogs for dog fighting, which involved gambling (quite high stakes by some reports) and was interstate in nature. Racketeering charges are entirely appropriate.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Interesting comment for you to make, since you do not know me, you do not know my ethnicity, you do not know my religious affiliation, you do not know my education and you do not know my profession(s).

Newsflash: Jews are highly represented in professions such as law, medicine, finance.

Why? Because opportunities in large corporations were largely closed-off to them in the 20th century.

So, when I make a joke about Jews knowing a lot about law, it is hardly a slur against Jews, it is intended as a gentle joke.

But I apologize for my remarks' insensitive nature. And my bad for overestimating your sophistication. Only kidding, only kidding.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Is that why Microsoft and Best Buy have faced racketeering charges recently?
and Michael Milken of junk bonds fame?
and the cigarette industry during all their litigation regarding their research into the health effects of smoking?

A little larger and more sophisticated than Vick's operation, wouldn't you say?


Vicks business, his kennel, seems to have based on breeding dogs for dog fighting, which involved gambling (quite high stakes by some reports)

If this is big time racketeering then CHARGE THEM WITH RACKETEERING.

I think they are a group of idiot thugs. I think Vick bizarrely risked his tens of millions of dollars on an operation earning hundreds of thousands of dollars for his buddies. Just my perception.

[Patler]

Interesting comment for you to make, since you do not know me, you do not know my ethnicity, you do not know my religious affiliation, you do not know my education and you do not know my profession(s).

Newsflash: Jews are highly represented in professions such as law, medicine, finance.

Why? Because opportunities in large corporations were largely closed-off to them in the 20th century.

So, when I make a joke about Jews knowing a lot about law, it is hardly a slur against Jews, it is intended as a gentle joke.

But I apologize for my remarks' insensitive nature. And my bad for overestimating your sophistication. Only kidding, only kidding.

and what, pray tell, makes you think that I do not know all of those facts....or have not lived a good part of them????

My reply had absolutely nothing to do with the crassness of your "joke". I never questioned the implications it had toward Jews. I only questioned why you assumed that I was not as knowledgeable as they, or as experienced as they, or in fact was not a Jew, or was not a lawyer, or was not a newspaper executive, etc., etc., etc.

Perhaps I should apologize for expecting that you could recognize the difference? :)

[Harlan Huckleby]

Ah hah! I KNEW you were a Jew! Damn, I thought this club was restricted. Well, considering the club president, I should have been prepared for the worst.

[Patler]

Is that why Microsoft and Best Buy have faced racketeering charges recently?
and Michael Milken of junk bonds fame?
and the cigarette industry during all their litigation regarding their research into the health effects of smoking?

A little larger and more sophisticated than Vick's operation, wouldn't you say?


Vicks business, his kennel, seems to have based on breeding dogs for dog fighting, which involved gambling (quite high stakes by some reports)

If this is big time racketeering then CHARGE THEM WITH RACKETEERING.

I think they are a group of idiot thugs. I think Vick bizarrely risked his tens of millions of dollars on an operation earning hundreds of thousands of dollars for his buddies. Just my perception.

By a Federal report of about 1000 racketeering charges, the typical size of the business in a "continuing criminal enterprise" racketeering charge is between $1 million and $2 million. 21% were based on gambling, second to drugs at just 23%.

I suspect Vick's kennel fit in quite nicely with the norm.

[Patler]

Ah hah! I KNEW you were a Jew! Damn, I thought this club was restricted. Well, considering the club president, I should have been prepared for the worst.

...and you know that how?

[Harlan Huckleby]

God Patler, you've got a literal mind. I don't know or care if you are Jewish. It's a joke, see, I'm taking your vague inferences and jumping to a conclusion for comic effect.

[Harlan Huckleby]

By a Federal report of about 1000 racketeering charges, the typical size of the business in a "continuing criminal enterprise" racketeering charge is between $1 million and $2 million. 21% were based on gambling, second to drugs at just 23%.

I suspect Vick's kennel fit in quite nicely with the norm.

Maybe so. Then charge them and make it stick and court.

[Partial]

I didn't read whats being argued but lets face it; he's guilty as sin.

He wouldn't have taken the plea bargin if there was any chance he was going to win. People will 100 million in the bank just don't do that.

[MadtownPacker]

But I apologize for my remarks' insensitive nature. And my bad for overestimating your sophistication. Only kidding, only kidding.Bastard!! When the hell have you ever apologized for "dogging" on me?? Good thing Patler checked your ass before I had to.

As for vick, you need to shut the hell up cuz we all know that you are only "siding" with vick since he is the lil guy getting crushed by the big bad system. You dont care about any injustice. You just want to be different and that is cool. You are rebellious,. I like that. I hope we can hang out one day and have fun like that. I doubt it will ever happen though.

But please save the BS. You probably cried when you heard the stories of how those doggies where getting their lights put out. You know that shit wasn't cool and vick will get what he deserves. It wont be too much time but he is ruined. He had it all and he blew it. Lost it all, like a straight up pendejo. That itself is almost more of a crime then the criminal charges.