Clowney = Cory Rodgers

[Packnut]

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Posted August 4, 2007

Insider: No beating around the Bush

By Rob Demovsky
rdemovsk@greenbaypressgazette.com

Thumbs up

If Jarrett Bush keeps this up, he's going to force the coaches into giving him a shot at the No. 3 cornerback job.


So far in camp, Patrick Dendy has gotten all the work as the third corner in the nickel defense, but Bush is closing fast.


The second-year pro has made a major impact on special teams, blocking a Dave Rayner field goal during Tuesday's practice at City Stadium, but he's been solid in coverage while Dendy continues to give up plays.


Bush largely had been an afterthought in the battle for the third corner. Dendy, who had the job last season, was going to get the first shot, and most figured free agent Frank Walker would be next in line.


Bush, who was claimed off waivers from Carolina last September and played in all 16 games last season, mostly on special teams, had blanket coverage on rookie receiver James Jones during a team (11-on-11) period during Friday's practice, and the ball was thrown incomplete.


Thumbs down

If there's an early candidate for the dubious honor of being the most disappointing draft pick, it's receiver David Clowney.


The fifth-round pick from Virginia Tech has struggled with nearly every aspect of his position. Friday's practice was a microcosm of his first week of training camp.


During a one-on-one period, he dropped a gimme touchdown in the corner of the end zone after cornerback Will Blackmon fell down on coverage. The perfectly thrown ball slipped through his hands. Later in practice, he caught a pass only because it practically stuck in his facemask after again going through his hands.


Even worse was his mistake on a route in a red-zone play during a team period. On a third-and-5 from the 10-yard line, Clowney quit running on a drag route in the end zone, allowing Brett Favre's pass to fall incomplete. Had the defensive coverage been better, it could have been intercepted.


The Packers might not be able to use his remarkable speed in the kicking game, because during a special teams period, he couldn't catch a kickoff cleanly.


Did you notice?

After making 29 of 30 field goals during the first eight training camp practices, Dave Rayner missed three on Friday. He missed wide left from 34 yards, had a 41-yard kick blocked and missed wide left from 44 yards. His only previous miss was a blocked kick on Tuesday. Rayner made kicks from 34, 41 and 41 yards to finish 3-for-6. Rookie Mason Crosby went 3-for-5, missing wide right from 41 yards and wide right from 44 yards. Crosby is 28-for-33 in camp.



Jon Ryan averaged 48.5 yards and 4.44 seconds of hang time on eight punts during a special teams period. He had punts of 60 and 69 yards, both of which had 5.1 seconds of hang time. Newly acquired punter Ryan Dougherty averaged 41.6 yards and 4.35 seconds of hang time on six punts.


Defensive tackle Johnny Jolly jumped offsides three times during the one-on-one pass-rushing drills. When he managed to get off the snap on time, he beat Tony Palmer and Pat Murray but couldn't beat Tyson Walter.


Aaron Rodgers was nearly flawless during team and 7-on-7 drills, completing 14 of 15 passes.



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Reader Comment Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:54 am
Brett should retire after the Moss fiasco. Obviously TT is trying to run him off.
Retiring Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:45 am
What????Favre retiring? When did you hear that?
Rodgers Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:24 am
I know its just training camp and doesn't mean anything, but it is encouraging to hear that Rodgers is doing well. I am excited to see how he does next year when Favre is retired and we start the next era of Packer football

[Fritz]

Well, if a fifth round pick doesn't make it, that's not a huge blow. But if four or five picks don't make it, and a couple are second-third round material, that's not so good.

[BallHawk]

Another one bites the dust for Leo Bookman II.

[Packnut]

Well, if a fifth round pick doesn't make it, that's not a huge blow. But if four or five picks don't make it, and a couple are second-third round material, that's not so good.


I agree. I was'nt intending to be critical of the pick, just stating a comparison.

[Fritz]

I know, Packnut. It's cool. I was just making an observation.

I'm wondering if we should start a "Tony Mandarich Award" for the biggest bust of training camp each year.

Last year, maybe it was Cory Rogers. Yes, he was only a fifth rounder, but he was supposedly just going to tear it up on kick and punt returns.

This year, it looks like Clowney has the lead, but if Justin Harrell doesn't get into shape in a couple of weeks, he will gain lots of ground on the Clown.

[Packnut]

I know, Packnut. It's cool. I was just making an observation.

I'm wondering if we should start a "Tony Mandarich Award" for the biggest bust of training camp each year.

Last year, maybe it was Cory Rogers. Yes, he was only a fifth rounder, but he was supposedly just going to tear it up on kick and punt returns.

This year, it looks like Clowney has the lead, but if Justin Harrell doesn't get into shape in a couple of weeks, he will gain lots of ground on the Clown.


Good idea for the award! As for Harrell, I think some are expecting to much to soon including Thompson and the coaching staff. This guy really has'nt played much football due to injuries including high school. There is a reason hardly anyone had him rated this high in the draft. He really is an unknown commodity.

I still believe Harrell was a bad pick, not because of his struggles now, but because it was not a need pick. Williams is better than Harrell right now and may turn out to be better period. We had the cap space and should have extended his contract. The guy had the 3rd amount of highest sacks at his position last season and you don't casually throw a DT who can get pressure up the middle away so easily.

Olsen is looking pretty good in Bears camp. I saw some clips of him stretching the middle and I did'nt realize he was that fast.

[HarveyWallbangers]

What comparison would you make for Jarrett Bush?

I've had a feeling Clowney won't do much--just because he was considered our "steal" by the experts. Just like Hodge was last year.

[Packnut]

What comparison would you make for Jarrett Bush?

I've had a feeling Clowney won't do much--just because he was considered our "steal" by the experts. Just like Hodge was last year.


Good question. I'm drawing a blank right now. A DB who was cut by another team, then succeeded with his new team. I'm sure there are others who did, I just can't remember them. :oops:

[Bretsky]

I know, Packnut. It's cool. I was just making an observation.

I'm wondering if we should start a "Tony Mandarich Award" for the biggest bust of training camp each year.

Last year, maybe it was Cory Rogers. Yes, he was only a fifth rounder, but he was supposedly just going to tear it up on kick and punt returns.

This year, it looks like Clowney has the lead, but if Justin Harrell doesn't get into shape in a couple of weeks, he will gain lots of ground on the Clown.


Harrell is the guy that we will all remember this year.

Because hardly anybody liked the pick on the day of, and than the homerism kicked in (including me) and we all allowed that to take over our logic in justifying why this was a solid pick. Still a terrible decision IMO not to trade with Cleveland. But either way, if Harrell does not turn out TT should get hung out to dry.

I hope he does.

[Partial]

I know, Packnut. It's cool. I was just making an observation.

I'm wondering if we should start a "Tony Mandarich Award" for the biggest bust of training camp each year.

Last year, maybe it was Cory Rogers. Yes, he was only a fifth rounder, but he was supposedly just going to tear it up on kick and punt returns.

This year, it looks like Clowney has the lead, but if Justin Harrell doesn't get into shape in a couple of weeks, he will gain lots of ground on the Clown.


Harrell is the guy that we will all remember this year.

Because hardly anybody liked the pick on the day of, and than the homerism kicked in (including me) and we all allowed that to take over our logic in justifying why this was a solid pick. Still a terrible decision IMO not to trade with Cleveland. But either way, if Harrell does not turn out TT should get hung out to dry.

I hope he does.

How can the win now crowd flame TT for giving Favre another player who could be a stud?!? Favre may not be there next year.

[Bretsky]

I know, Packnut. It's cool. I was just making an observation.

I'm wondering if we should start a "Tony Mandarich Award" for the biggest bust of training camp each year.

Last year, maybe it was Cory Rogers. Yes, he was only a fifth rounder, but he was supposedly just going to tear it up on kick and punt returns.

This year, it looks like Clowney has the lead, but if Justin Harrell doesn't get into shape in a couple of weeks, he will gain lots of ground on the Clown.


Harrell is the guy that we will all remember this year.

Because hardly anybody liked the pick on the day of, and than the homerism kicked in (including me) and we all allowed that to take over our logic in justifying why this was a solid pick. Still a terrible decision IMO not to trade with Cleveland. But either way, if Harrell does not turn out TT should get hung out to dry.

I hope he does.

How can the win now crowd flame TT for giving Favre another player who could be a stud?!? Favre may not be there next year.


Not to beat a dead horse that has been beaten before, but TT drafted this guy who is recovering from injury at a position of strength that we already had plenty of quality starters at. The win now crowd pointed out that Harrell may not be starting and might just add good depth while there were guys on offense that might have given us the best chance to win now, or a safety that most scouts graded as far far better then what we have.

Nobody expects Harrell to be a stud this year with the depth we have on the DL; I don't think that is reasonable.

TT had some balls for drafting who he considered the BPA regardless of need (besides Quinn if he was rated better). It needs to work out

[vince]

If Harrell's addition improves the rushing defense from a middle of the pack ranking to a top 10 or better by clogging running lanes, opening up the linebacking corps to make more plays, and making the strong pass rushing abilities of Corey Williams more effective by keeping him more fresh throughout the game, he will not only be instrumental in making the defense much better, but will also provide Brett Favre and the offense more time to operate and better field position to do so - two obviously vital components of offensive success.

Along with the obvious improvements that the OL will make opening holes for the running game after a year of experience in operating the ZBS and a strong offseason of work for the young group of linemen, as well as the added skills and experience throughout the depth of the receiving corps from the likes of Jones, Martin, and Holliday - the offense will perform better. The running backs will perform if the line performs, and we can't possibly get worse production from the TE position this year than last...

There is no reason to think that the arm injury will slow Harrell down once he regains game shape after a year off and learns the responsibilities and techniques employed by the Packer defensive line. There is also no reason to think it will take an inordinate amount of time for him to learn and regain his playing abilities - but for a rookie who missed most of his senior season, it will take a little bit of time - which we should give him...

It's surprising that the experienced fans represented on this board would jump to such negative conclusions about Harrell's ability to be a strong contributor in the overall winning formula after a few isolated pash rushing exercises by a run stuffer - in the first week of a rookie's camp experience no less.

Harrell is predominantly a run stopper. Williams is at his best as a pash rusher. Together, they should make an extremely strong combination - and they'll make each other - and the team - much better.

[Bretsky]

It's surprising that the experienced fans represented on this board would jump to such negative conclusions about Harrell's ability to be a strong contributor in the overall winning formula after a few isolated pash rushing exercises by a run stuffer - in the first week of a rookie's camp experience no less.


It's great to take the full Kool Aide approach Vince; it's equally great to not take the ifs and assume the best of them. We're just going off early reports and reaching for any possible news that there is, which is little.

I hope Harrell does make a great combination with Corey Williams
I also hope the Harrell pick was not the precursor of letting Williams go.

[vince]

1. rookie in first week of camp
2. rookie in first week of camp who's predominantly a run stuffer.
3. rookie in first week of camp who's predominantly a run stuffer and is practicing pass rushing technique.
4. rookie in first week of camp who's predominantly a run stuffer and is practicing pass rushing technique who also is getting his first reps back on the field after a season-ending injury in his last year in college and not in hitting game shape yet.

To posit that this scenario is not indicative of actual expected results in the regular season is hardly kool-aid drinking. I'd say it's blatantly obvious.

[KYPack]

Haven't heard one positive thing about Clowney.

All accounts are that he's overwhelmed by the big game.

He doesn't seem to be as fast as advertised. The other thing that came out of the Mini's was that he is very slender. Most observers felt he didn't have an NFL build and was a few years away from getting one.

Now come the bad stories about his play and hands.

Don't sound good for the boy.

He should change his name anyhow.

What kinda football name is Clowney?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Stock is Rising

Utility players are hard to find. Every offensive coordinator craves for a player that is athletic enough to be utilized in multiple roles to keep defenses guessing. That is why Chicago converted Devin Hester to wide receiver. Speed, athleticism, and agility can be used in countless ways with the help of a creative coordinator. Rookie David Clowney could be that type of threat. The barely six-foot, 185 pounds he has dropped plenty of passes in camp. Today, however, he made a strong case for a roster spot. During red zone work, Clowney motioned to the right, curled behind Favre and ran a swing route. Favre zipped it to him and Clowney turned on the burners for a 15-yard touchdown. At Virginia Tech, Clowney only returned five kicks in three seasons, but he is competing for that role with the Packers. In today’s kick return work Clowney displayed natural vision. The coverage unit wasn’t at full tilt, but Clowney’s speed gives him an immediate advantage over other Packers receivers. That in itself is worth a roster spot.

[Bretsky]

Stock is Rising

Utility players are hard to find. Every offensive coordinator craves for a player that is athletic enough to be utilized in multiple roles to keep defenses guessing. That is why Chicago converted Devin Hester to wide receiver. Speed, athleticism, and agility can be used in countless ways with the help of a creative coordinator. Rookie David Clowney could be that type of threat. The barely six-foot, 185 pounds he has dropped plenty of passes in camp. Today, however, he made a strong case for a roster spot. During red zone work, Clowney motioned to the right, curled behind Favre and ran a swing route. Favre zipped it to him and Clowney turned on the burners for a 15-yard touchdown. At Virginia Tech, Clowney only returned five kicks in three seasons, but he is competing for that role with the Packers. In today’s kick return work Clowney displayed natural vision. The coverage unit wasn’t at full tilt, but Clowney’s speed gives him an immediate advantage over other Packers receivers. That in itself is worth a roster spot.


Sounds like this guy has potential in some different areas the Packers have not had threats at. If Jones and Martin or Holliday are looking alright, this guy sounds worthy of giving a shot to as opposed to the Fraud.

[Packnut]

Well, you don't draft a guy at 16 and pay him a ton of cash with the intent to play running downs only. Williams will not be here next season.

[vince]

Sounds like this guy has potential in some different areas the Packers have not had threats at. If Jones and Martin or Holliday are looking alright, this guy sounds worthy of giving a shot to as opposed to the Fraud.Absolutely. Cut the Fraud. Clowney may or may not be the guy, but we know about the Fraud.

[vince]

Well, you don't draft a guy at 16 and pay him a ton of cash with the intent to play running downs only. Williams will not be here next season.If Harrell proves capable of being effective against the pass, then you may be right. Too much talent on the defensive front is a good problem to have.

[woodbuck27]

Maybe David Clowney has only enough skills to be in the CFL where Cory Rodgers landed this season.

Cory Rodgers is doing pretty good so far up here this season. He scored a TD last week.

[KYPack]

Maybe David Clowney has only enough skills to be in the CFL where Cory Rodgers landed this season.

Cory Rodgers is doing pretty good so far up here this season. He scored a TD last week.

Americans would prefer not to play in a land covered by thick sheets of ice.

+ You have to date a moose for your social life.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I’m not going to doubt that Harrell will turn out to be good because the one thing I do trust TT with is his drafting. However, whether he turns out to be good or not, this pick does nothing for Favre and his chances at winning this season. Harrell needs at least a full year before he gets back in shape and he just will not make much of an impact this year no matter how you look at it. And if this leads to the loss of Williams then I seriously hate the pick because you will be losing a good player and in essence just be trading off for players. On draft day I really wanted Bowe or Nelson and its looking like Nelson would have made a huge impact for us THIS year and in future years.

My point is that while I don't doubt Harrell will be good, if your like me and want to win with Favre, this pick will not make sense for another two years. I think Harrell only adds depth this year and nothing more, but I hope am wrong.

[woodbuck27]

Maybe David Clowney has only enough skills to be in the CFL where Cory Rodgers landed this season.

Cory Rodgers is doing pretty good so far up here this season. He scored a TD last week.

Americans would prefer not to play in a land covered by thick sheets of ice.

+ You have to date a moose for your social life.

You need a vacation to Montreal KY.

Maybe your heart couldn't handle it. :)

The most beautiful ladies in the world live here.

[woodbuck27]

I’m not going to doubt that Harrell will turn out to be good because the one thing I do trust TT with is his drafting. However, whether he turns out to be good or not, this pick does nothing for Favre and his chances at winning this season. Harrell needs at least a full year before he gets back in shape and he just will not make much of an impact this year no matter how you look at it. And if this leads to the loss of Williams then I seriously hate the pick because you will be losing a good player and in essence just be trading off for players. On draft day I really wanted Bowe or Nelson and its looking like Nelson would have made a huge impact for us THIS year and in future years.

My point is that while I don't doubt Harrell will be good, if your like me and want to win with Favre, this pick will not make sense for another two years. I think Harrell only adds depth this year and nothing more, but I hope am wrong.

Actually I really believe that your bang on with your thoughts above.

It's OK. :)

[KYPack]

Maybe David Clowney has only enough skills to be in the CFL where Cory Rodgers landed this season.

Cory Rodgers is doing pretty good so far up here this season. He scored a TD last week.

Americans would prefer not to play in a land covered by thick sheets of ice.

+ You have to date a moose for your social life.

You need a vacation to Montreal KY.

Maybe your heart couldn't handle it. :)

The most beautiful ladies in the world live here.

Been there many times Buck.

The boys in Quebec City say their ladies are the most beautiful ladies in Canada.

I was just playing that old forum game of "pin the tail on our resident Canuck".

[woodbuck27]

If Harrell's addition improves the rushing defense from a middle of the pack ranking to a top 10 or better by clogging running lanes, opening up the linebacking corps to make more plays, and making the strong pass rushing abilities of Corey Williams more effective by keeping him more fresh throughout the game, he will not only be instrumental in making the defense much better, but will also provide Brett Favre and the offense more time to operate and better field position to do so - two obviously vital components of offensive success.

Along with the obvious improvements that the OL will make opening holes for the running game after a year of experience in operating the ZBS and a strong offseason of work for the young group of linemen, as well as the added skills and experience throughout the depth of the receiving corps from the likes of Jones, Martin, and Holliday - the offense will perform better. The running backs will perform if the line performs, and we can't possibly get worse production from the TE position this year than last...

There is no reason to think that the arm injury will slow Harrell down once he regains game shape after a year off and learns the responsibilities and techniques employed by the Packer defensive line. There is also no reason to think it will take an inordinate amount of time for him to learn and regain his playing abilities - but for a rookie who missed most of his senior season, it will take a little bit of time - which we should give him...

It's surprising that the experienced fans represented on this board would jump to such negative conclusions about Harrell's ability to be a strong contributor in the overall winning formula after a few isolated pash rushing exercises by a run stuffer - in the first week of a rookie's camp experience no less.

Harrell is predominantly a run stopper. Williams is at his best as a pash rusher. Together, they should make an extremely strong combination - and they'll make each other - and the team - much better.

A number 1 draft pick can't be on the bench or otherwise not contributing on our team.

We had over the top too much need on our 'O' Vince.

TT surely had to draft a player that could step up now. Can't we agree on this?

TT had to see this need and ensure that NO.1 pick would have an excellent chance of being in our lineup this season.

If TT wanted to go 'D' then that position of need was at SS, or FS, then with the option of moving Nick Collins fr. FS to SS.

This pick of Justin Harrell has nothing to do with TT saying we have to (or he wants to) win this season.

The pick makes no sense based in TT's stance of late.

It makes no sense, based in our depth at DT and Harrel's health history.

That's why so many Packer fans were pissed at TT for picking at DT and Justin Harrell. It has nothing to do with Justin Harrell, who we hope wants to be huge for us.

Packer fans shouldn't be discredited because they are just fans.

It's well known that. . . Packer fans are amongst the most knowledgeable of all fans. and Packer fans are sick of 12-20.

Bottom line. TT blew this pick fr. a standpoint of our needs this season and we should forget Favre's needs.

It's about Packer fans needs and the Green Bay Packers.

[Brandon494]

I guarntee Clowney makes the team, and who ever thinks his speed is overrated should actually see him play in person before talking.

[vince]

Woody, what on earth has brought you to the predetermined conclusion that Justin Harrell will be "on the bench or otherwise not contributing to our team?" What makes you think that Harrell can't "step up" this year, and doesn't have "an excellent chance of being in our lineup this season?" Allow me to remind you of the expert scouting reports on Justin Harrell:


Mel Kiper: "Harrell was a real disruptive force along the interior of the defensive line. He has good size, quickness and athleticism for a defensive tackle. It's a shame he got hurt, because he was on his way to earning a pretty high grade, perhaps even a top 10 overall evaluation. Now he's back to right around 100 percent and has been able to put the injury behind him. Athletic 300+ pounder with the ability to make his presence felt along the interior. When Harrell is in there, he jumps out at you on film."

Pat Kirwan (nfl.com): "I had Justin Harrell going somewhere at this point in the draft because when he regained his health, it demonstrated to the NFL -- with the 35 reps on the bench -- NFL personnel people went back and looked at 2005 game tapes and convinced themselves he was a first-round selection because he has a unique ability to disengage from blockers and make plays in the backfield."

Street & Smith's: "Good size with long arms. Has the size and strength to play two-gap schemes, but may be best suited for a one-gap scheme where he can use his quickness to shoot gaps and make plays in the backfield. Quick off the ball. Stays low and maintains leverage. Agile; good change of direction. Effective against the run and pass. Very strong and powerful. Anchors well. Able to bull rush and collapse the pocket. Disruptive. Does well on line stunts. Instinctive; quick to locate the ball. Moves well through traffic. Closes quickly on the ball carrier. Will play hurt."

Pro Football Weekly: "Very fluid for his size with great functional playing strength. Good athlete. Shows good initial quickness to get into the gaps and disrupt, outstanding strength to stack the point and surprising range to make plays outside the tackle box. Good strength to play the double team. Effective bull rusher who can push the pocket inside and close to the quarterback. Shows good awareness to locate the ball. Reads hats and feels where pressure is coming from. Strong drive-through tackler. Very versatile--plays on the nose and as a three-technique and has the size to line up outside in a 3-4 front."

nfldraftscout.com: "Has thick upper-body mass with a firm chest, shoulders and good arm-muscle definition. … Has big hips, thick thighs and calves and room on his frame to add at least another 20 pounds of bulk with no loss in quickness. … Quick and explosive off the snap; even though he was used mostly to occupy multiple blockers at the line of scrimmage, he does a good job of anchoring and clogging up the inside rush lanes. … Has outstanding weight-room strength and is starting to learn how to translate that to the football field. … Does an effective job of combining aggressiveness with strength to create an explosive surge off the snap. … Maintains a low center of gravity to fill the inside lanes. … Will make plays down field and shows good urgency closing on the ball. ... Leader-by-example type who proved his moxie by refusing surgery to play with a ruptured biceps vs. Florida in 2006. … Responsible, mature type who really embraced the leadership role thrust upon him as a senior. … Difficult to handle in one-on-one situations; he will constantly battle until the whistle."

Scout.com: "A hard-working lineman with a lot of physical skill, Harrell could be one of the most underrated players in this draft. Tough, athletic defender who plays with top effort. Gets off the snap with a quick first step, is fluid changing direction and slides off blocks to make the play. Bends his knees, gets leverage on opponents and is rarely off his feet. Flashes power on the inside, gets push in the middle of the line or holds the point. Consistently doubled by opponents."

FootballsFuture.com: "Harrell has all the talent to be a standout defensive tackle at the next level. He has solid size, is a good athlete, and is strong. He is an excellent run stopper, displaying the ability to hold his ground at the point attack and get off blocks to bring down the ball carrier. He also shows the burst to get through the line and has the speed and athleticism to get to the outside and run down the offensive player. You have to love Harrell's attitude as well. After rupturing his bicep against Air Force, he came out and played through the pain against Florida the following week."

Obviously, he needs to prove himself on Sundays, but what have you seen, read, heard, or otherwise learned about Mr. Harrell that makes you think it's inevitable that he will be a complete bust, a conclusion at which you've obviously already arrived?

The most important thing that Ted Thompson can do to improve the play of the offense - and more importantly, of the ability of the Packers team to WIN (yes now) is to solidify and IMPROVE the run defense. Yes Woody, improving the defense's ability to shut down the opposition's running game HELPS THE PACKERS OFFENSE TREMENDOUSLY! THIS SEASON EVEN! More possessions with better field position is an absolute predeterminant of OFFENSIVE success.

TT did not "forget" Favre's needs, as you are so convinced he has. He just has a different (and in my opinion - more sophisticated and effective) opinion of how to impact success in the consumate team sport of footbal - than you, others on this board, and other sideline observers have.

And to your point about other needs, in terms of SS/FS, it appears that there are a number of strong candidates - at least in the opinion of the professional talent evaluation staff of the Green Bay Packers and of many of those who have seen the previous film and training camp play of no less than 4 candidates (not including Manual) for the starting safety position across from Collins.

That doesn't discredit your status as a great Packer fan, Woody. You are. Obviously, you have every right to state your opinions with conviction. It just says, to me anyway, that you're not the best person with the most experience to be managing this football franchise. And equally obvious is others right to disagree with your opinions.

Woody, your consistent use of the "12-20" BS as your main bash on Thompson is completely unconvincing. I know you understand enough about the management of a football franchise to know that AT LEAST the first year a General Manager takes the helm of a team, he's working almost exclusively with an inherited state of football operation - cap predicament, depth of talent, coaching staff, etc. Ted Thompson has acted boldly and effectively to improve this team in all aspects.

Did Ted screw up by not resigning Wahle? In my opinion - yes. I think he's even on record as saying as much. But to say that Ted Thompson is the one man to blame for the first year he assumed the reigns of this franchise is ignorant to the point of ridiculousness, and I know that you are far more experienced and intelligent than that. Remember the injuries that year? Did Ted cause them, Woody? Remember the former GM who struck out on draft picks and free agent signings too numerous to mention here, who left an aging team in cap hell?

This is a young, talented team on the rise - one that is clearly light-years ahead of last year - and certainly the year before - in terms of depth of talent, experience, skills, strength, leadership, character and attitude.

Will all those intangibles convert into more wins, a playoff appearance and/or a Super Bowl victory? Let's see how this team evolves. It appears to be a tough schedule this year. My money's on them being more consistent, competitive, and effective this year than either of the last two.

You obviously think differently. We all know where you stand on your perspective of how the safeties, running backs, receivers, and offensive line will inevitably completely suck. Some people simply believe that Underwood, Culver, Peprah, Rouse, Bush, Harrell, Morency, Jackson, Wynn, Jones, and others have the drive and (more importantly) the talent to be effective - in some cases very effective - players in this league. They just need to be given the opportunity to showcase that talent.

I don't question your undying love for the Packers, Woody, nor do I question your knowledge of the game. Fortunately though, we all get to watch them actually play the games and we don't have to blindly accept the doom and gloom scenarios you've consistently presented as inevitable throughout this offseason.

[Packnut]

And of course the flip side is we don't all have to accept blind faith and optimism based on wishful thinking. No knows for sure at this moment How Harrell and the others will play out.

All I know for certain is that talk is cheap. It's time to see production on the field.

[Bretsky]

And of course the flip side is we don't all have to accept blind faith and optimism based on wishful thinking. No knows for sure at this moment How Harrell and the others will play out.

All I know for certain is that talk is cheap. It's time to see production on the field.

Bingo

I respect all opinions in here;

nothing...the OL improving , a S stepping up, a much better defense to help the offense..., Harell...Jones....are guarantees.

It will be determined on the field and in the end by our win loss record

[Lurker64]

I don't know if the comparison is quite apt. Rodgers was drafted in the fourth round to make an immediate impact doing one thing: returning. In training camp, he proved basically incapable of doing so, since he couldn't catch the darn ball off a punt or a kickoff (one wonders how he racked up those return numbers in college.) Clowney was drafted in the fifth round as a project because he's very, very fast and has potential as a deep threat if he can adapt to the NFL game. That he becomes a deep threat at the NFL level is not a certainty, otherwise he would have been drafted before round 5.

Admittedly, Clowney's highlight reel makes it look like he's someone who should make a contribution this year, but his drart status and overall grade by the scouts seems to point otherwise.

Rodgers was incompetent, Clowney so far just looks like a practice squad guy. Then again, a lot of rookies look lost when they start out, and we've only been through a week of training camp, maybe he'll step it up.

[vince]

And of course the flip side is we don't all have to accept blind faith and optimism based on wishful thinking. No knows for sure at this moment How Harrell and the others will play out.

All I know for certain is that talk is cheap. It's time to see production on the field.

Bingo

I respect all opinions in here;

nothing...the OL improving , a S stepping up, a much better defense to help the offense..., Harell...Jones....are guarantees.

It will be determined on the field and in the end by our win loss recordAbsolutely agree. We'll find out how things come together.

BTW, Bretsky, you're very good - perhaps the best - at respecting all opinions. Thank you for that.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Unless Clowney shows some unbelievable return skills in preseason, I don't see him making the team.

[KYPack]

I'd definitely agree with Bretsky.

A guy like Clowney needs a year on the PS.

He can get adjusted to the speed of the pro game and spend a year in an NFL weight room.

The only problem might be another team sniping off PS. Big time speed does attract rival scouts.

[Brandon494]

No way he would make it to the PS, another team would sign him for sure.

[KYPack]

No way he would make it to the PS, another team would sign him for sure.

Ya might be right.

He had a long return tonite. Maybe it was a tad early to assign the boy to the PS. If he gets more proficient running routes, catching the ball, etc., he's got him a roster spot.

[The Shadow]

If Harrell will be an important cog in the years ahead, choosing him was
terrific. The Packers are being retooled, and the 'win right now!' attitude with a young team just developing seems counterproductive.
I think TT has demonstrated an excellent eye for talent.

[woodbuck27]

Maybe David Clowney has only enough skills to be in the CFL where Cory Rodgers landed this season.

Cory Rodgers is doing pretty good so far up here this season. He scored a TD last week.

Update !

Some great stuff coming out on Clowney last couple of days. V. positive.

We need a speedy WR prospect. We need a return man and a gunner on ST's.

Clowney?

[The Leaper]

All along I've maintained that Clowney is heading for the practice squad. He's got very good speed, but needs to put on a few pounds and become much better in basic fundamentals. This is a guy who wasn't a regular starter in college...he has A LOT of learning to do as a WR. I could care less how fast he is when he doesn't run routes effectively.

[Bretsky]

And of course the flip side is we don't all have to accept blind faith and optimism based on wishful thinking. No knows for sure at this moment How Harrell and the others will play out.

All I know for certain is that talk is cheap. It's time to see production on the field.

Bingo

I respect all opinions in here;

nothing...the OL improving , a S stepping up, a much better defense to help the offense..., Harell...Jones....are guarantees.

It will be determined on the field and in the end by our win loss recordAbsolutely agree. We'll find out how things come together.

BTW, Bretsky, you're very good - perhaps the best - at respecting all opinions. Thank you for that.


Thanks for the kind words Vince; and believe me when I say that I hope you are absolutely right on all of your optimism.

Have a great rest of the weekend,
Bretsky

[Bretsky]

If Harrell will be an important cog in the years ahead, choosing him was
terrific. The Packers are being retooled, and the 'win right now!' attitude with a young team just developing seems counterproductive.
I think TT has demonstrated an excellent eye for talent.


Now there is our main disagreement, and based on all of his interviews Ted Thompson would disagree with you as well. TT is embracing the win now attitude and expects to succeed this year. Look at all of his recent interviews.

He has chosen a course of action to build this team through the draft this year and decided not to pursue free agency. That may or may not have been the right choice. But it was TT's choice and he expects to win now. I completely agree with Bob McGinn in that fans should expect Green Bay to improve numbers wise and win at least nine games. I bet TT would say the same himself.

The free pass is over; it doesn't take 3-5 years to rebuild anymore.

The season's right around the corner; the improvement on the win loss record will have the biggest say in how I feel about TT one year from now.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I doubt many GMs draft for year 1--since a overwhelming majority of rookies don't contribute much their rookie year (even a guy like Mario Williams). Can we agree that Corey Williams, with or without Harrell, could be gone next year? If so, would you be comfortable with Pickett, Jolly, and Cole in 2008? Let's face it: it was a need pick, but not necessarily for this year. Besides, probably 30 of 32 teams need three good DTs, so he helps this year also--if he's as good as people believe.

[Scott Campbell]

Can we agree that Corey Williams, with or without Harrell, could be gone next year?


I guess I don't understand this. Why does there seem to be so much speculation that Williams will be gone. We've got a ton of available cap space, and can't we still tag the guy if we really want him?

[HarveyWallbangers]

That wasn't my point. My point is that drafting a DT could help them this year, and it protects them next year--since there is no guarantee that Williams will be on the team. It basically is a need pick. Like when Philly drafted two corners (Sheppard, Brown) when their two starters (Vincent, Taylor) were in the last year of their contracts.

[Bretsky]

That wasn't my point. My point is that drafting a DT could help them this year, and it protects them next year--since there is no guarantee that Williams will be on the team. It basically is a need pick. Like when Philly drafted two corners (Sheppard, Brown) when their two starters (Vincent, Taylor) were in the last year of their contracts.


I sure hope the drafting of Harrell would have nothing, nothing at all to do with the Williams negotiations. Some of TT's supporters will criticize TT if he sends Harrell packing. It's not like we don't have money.

I agree it's very possible that Williams might be gone next year, but unless he falls on his face I will undoubtedly not be happy at all about it.

[RashanGary]

Signing Corey Williams to a long term deal after this season will be a perfect example of how an oppertunistic, value concious approach affords a team the ablity to load up at important positions instead of letting good talent go at DT so you can bring in average talent at FB.


I've said over and over that Ted Thompson seems to have a flexible, open ended approach that is grounded in oppertunism, value and an understanding of all NFL talent markets. Letting Corey Williams go would be a Mike Sherman move that would be grounded in desperation and an ignorant belief that you can just get whatever you need on the FA market every year. If Ted Thompson lets Corey Williams go for anything less than a top 25 pick or a damn good player at another position, I'll be irrate. One of Thompsons biggest supporters will no longer be in his corner.

I have reasons for believing in Ted Thompson and letting Corey Williams just leave in free agency would go against everything I've supported.

[The Shadow]

The best drafting philosophy for the long haul is to pick the best player on your board. If Harrell was that player, he should have been chosen. Drafting for immediate need never seems to work.

[Scott Campbell]

Some of TT's supporters will criticize TT if he sends Harrell packing.


You mean Williams??

[Scott Campbell]

Letting Corey Williams go would be a Mike Sherman move that would be grounded in desperation and an ignorant belief that you can just get whatever you need on the FA market every year.


It's also grounded in his salary cap management, which often left him with little or no money to keep valuable players. Much of Shermy's money went to overpriced contracts.

[RashanGary]

It's also grounded in his salary cap management, which often left him with little or no money to keep valuable players. Much of Shermy's money went to overpriced contracts.

Right. High risk, middle reward type players was what Sherman liked to invest in. His whole risk/reward scale was broken. Well, not broken, but he'd never been an NFL GM or dealt with managing a cap, a roster or a draft. His scale was never broken, he just never had one.

[Bretsky]

Some of TT's supporters will criticize TT if he sends Harrell packing.


You mean Williams??


OH, crap, yes I did

[Packgator]

I know, Packnut. It's cool. I was just making an observation.

I'm wondering if we should start a "Tony Mandarich Award" for the biggest bust of training camp each year.

Last year, maybe it was Cory Rogers. Yes, he was only a fifth rounder, but he was supposedly just going to tear it up on kick and punt returns.

This year, it looks like Clowney has the lead, but if Justin Harrell doesn't get into shape in a couple of weeks, he will gain lots of ground on the Clown.


Harrell is the guy that we will all remember this year.

Because hardly anybody liked the pick on the day of, and than the homerism kicked in (including me) and we all allowed that to take over our logic in justifying why this was a solid pick. Still a terrible decision IMO not to trade with Cleveland. But either way, if Harrell does not turn out TT should get hung out to dry.

I hope he does.

Here is one observation from Family Night......

""Rookie defensive tackle Justin Harrell made an immediate impact. On his snap of the night, the first-round draft pick recorded a tackle, stopping running back DeShawn Winn for a 2-yard gain. On the next play, Harrell shed a block by left guard Allen Barbre and batted down a pass by Rodgers. Harrell wasn't in on any more plays the rest of the scrimmage.""

http://www.packersnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070805/PKR01/708050702/1989

[vince]

Williams is signable next year, and I would expect him to be resigned, unless Harrell, Jolly and Cole develop a completeness to their games to a great enough extent that Williams becomes expendable. Perhaps that's not likely, but Jolly is a guy who does have some potential. Obviously, Ted will have a much better grasp on that than any of us - at the right time.

[Scott Campbell]

It's also grounded in his salary cap management, which often left him with little or no money to keep valuable players. Much of Shermy's money went to overpriced contracts.

Right. High risk, middle reward type players was what Sherman liked to invest in. His whole risk/reward scale was broken. Well, not broken, but he'd never been an NFL GM or dealt with managing a cap, a roster or a draft. His scale was never broken, he just never had one.


And say what you want about tightwad Ted and his lack of free agent acquisitions this summer, but there is no question that he has preserved a tremendous amount of cap flexibility on a go forward basis. There's a lot of different ways he can play the hand he's dealt himself. He has options that many teams don't have.

[Bretsky]

It's also grounded in his salary cap management, which often left him with little or no money to keep valuable players. Much of Shermy's money went to overpriced contracts.

Right. High risk, middle reward type players was what Sherman liked to invest in. His whole risk/reward scale was broken. Well, not broken, but he'd never been an NFL GM or dealt with managing a cap, a roster or a draft. His scale was never broken, he just never had one.


And say what you want about tightwad Ted and his lack of free agent acquisitions this summer, but there is no question that he has preserved a tremendous amount of cap flexibility on a go forward basis. There's a lot of different ways he can play the hand he's dealt himself. He has options that many teams don't have.


With the insanely rising cap more and more teams currently have this same flexibility to go and an make a big play if they choose. My gut tells me we will always have cap room flexibility.

[run pMc]

I have a feeling Bodiford gets the KR spot and Clowney goes to the PS. If he's still raw, he should spend some time there. As far as getting plucked off the PS, to do that somebody has to sign him to the active roster. So let's play the WR guessing game and say we keep DD, Jennings, Martin, Holliday, Jones and Bodiford.
That means Fergy gets cut, and KoRo doesn't come back. With guys like that on the street, I think it's a reasonable risk to put Clowney on the PS since it's unlikely someone's going to use a roster spot on a raw player.

As for the Harrell pick, I think the BPA philosophy sometimes means you have an embarrassment of riches at a position, which also means you can parley (via trade) that into more draft picks which can be used to fix other areas. (Either that, or you end up with incredible depth.) With all the money in the DLine (KGB, Kampman, Pickett), it's not a given that TT will resign Williams, so Harrell is a safe pick in terms of keeping depth. The scouting reports were on Harrell are in general very positive, so I'm looking forward to seeing if they are correct. If he's rusty one week into TC -- after not playing for a year -- I'm not too concerned. I think we'll know more about him by week 4 or 5 when he's in game shape and has had some snaps under his belt.
He's still a rookie.

[Brandon494]

No way Clowney makes it to PS, someone will sign him for sure.

[woodbuck27]

Maybe David Clowney has only enough skills to be in the CFL where Cory Rodgers landed this season.

Cory Rodgers is doing pretty good so far up here this season. He scored a TD last week.

Americans would prefer not to play in a land covered by thick sheets of ice.

+ You have to date a moose for your social life.

You need a vacation to Montreal KY.

Maybe your heart couldn't handle it. :)

Yea. that Quebecquois blood is something else. . .to look at !!

The most beautiful ladies in the world live here.

Been there many times Buck.

The boys in Quebec City say their ladies are the most beautiful ladies in Canada.

I was just playing that old forum game of "pin the tail on our resident Canuck".

Yup. that Quebecquois blood is something else. . .to look at !!

Blacker than black hair and all the goodies but they can be hot in the temperment package.

The ladies fr, the Maritimes and Newfoundland are special KY.

[KYPack]

Maybe David Clowney has only enough skills to be in the CFL where Cory Rodgers landed this season.

Cory Rodgers is doing pretty good so far up here this season. He scored a TD last week.

Americans would prefer not to play in a land covered by thick sheets of ice.

+ You have to date a moose for your social life.

You need a vacation to Montreal KY.

Maybe your heart couldn't handle it. :)

Yea. that Quebecquois blood is something else. . .to look at !!

The most beautiful ladies in the world live here.

Been there many times Buck.

The boys in Quebec City say their ladies are the most beautiful ladies in Canada.

I was just playing that old forum game of "pin the tail on our resident Canuck".

Yup. that Quebecquois blood is something else. . .to look at !!

Blacker than black hair and all the goodies but they can be hot in the temperment package.

The ladies fr, the Maritimes and Newfoundland are special KY.

I know, Buck.

Newfie blood runs hot.

And ya don't have to talk to 'em.

BTW, ya won't see Clowney in the Grey Cup this year.

He'll be playin' in the States this year

[woodbuck27]

It's also grounded in his salary cap management, which often left him with little or no money to keep valuable players. Much of Shermy's money went to overpriced contracts.

Right. High risk, middle reward type players was what Sherman liked to invest in. His whole risk/reward scale was broken. Well, not broken, but he'd never been an NFL GM or dealt with managing a cap, a roster or a draft. His scale was never broken, he just never had one.


And say what you want about tightwad Ted and his lack of free agent acquisitions this summer, but there is no question that he has preserved a tremendous amount of cap flexibility on a go forward basis. There's a lot of different ways he can play the hand he's dealt himself. He has options that many teams don't have.

TT is on record saying that he wanted to win this season.

Having some $13 million of CAP space given the needs we have at RB and TE don't justfy his inability to not provide for our needs at these positions this season SC.

Winning in 2007 sends a message around the league that we are a team on the rise and that is what it takes to interest solid FA's in moving to our team.

His plan is to develop fr. within, but a good GM has to play all the options to have a solid hand.