Is having four starting caliber defensive tackles a problem?

[RashanGary]

It seems like there is a growing sentiment that we should unload one of our plentifull defensive tackles. The main reasons that I see sited are:

1. We still would still have three good DT's and a fourth who is a capable backup (Pickett, Jolly, Harrell and Cole as the capable backup). Basically, Williams doesn't bring much extra to our team.
2. We should be able to fix a need with either a draft pick or the player that Williams fetches us

I don't think we should press for a trade. Nutz recently mentioned that NFL vets don't typically fetch more than a 3rd round pick unless they are all-pros. If you look at recent history, this is true. Realisticlly, we are not going to get equal value for Corey Williams. We drafted and developed him, I think we should reap the benfits that were sown and I think we can.

I made a rotation chart that shows how we might be able to take advantage of our current defensive line talent. Take any situation like 1st and goal at the one or 4th and 26 at the 30 and consider whether it's run, pass or more of a base situation. Some situations might fall somewhere in the middle so use your judgement. If you think it's all run then go down the far left of the chart and out pops the defensive line rotation. It would be nice to have Kampman, Williams, Pickett and Jenkins on every play but you need to rest your starters and the goal is to rest the starters while still getting situationally effective play from start to end.


RDE

RUN--------10----------20----------30----------40-----BASE-----60----------70-----------80----------90--------PASS __________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I--------Williams 25%---------I---------------Jenkins 40%---------------I-----------------KGB 35%------------------I


RDT

RUN--------10----------20----------30----------40-----BASE-----60----------70-----------80----------90--------PASS
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I-----------Jolly 25%-----------I------------Harrell 35%-----------I-----------Williams 30%-------------I-Jenks 10%I



LDT

RUN--------10----------20----------30----------40-----BASE-----60----------70-----------80----------90--------PASS __________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I---------------------------Pickett 60%------------------------------I--------------Jolly 30%-------------I-Wilms 10%-I



LDE

RUN--------10----------20----------30----------40-----BASE-----60----------70-----------80----------90--------PASS
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I-Harel 10%I--Jenkins 15%--I---------------------------------------Kampan 75%-------------------------------------I



The coaches have a better idea of how to use their guys. However, I think this chart shows that it is possible to get good, win contributing results from all of the lineman we have on our roster. If you have one weak link (Cole or Montgomery) or a tired player, it becomes a lot easier to stop the other three. Give up Williams and add in one injury and now we have run down, tired defensive line, especially in fourth quarter. We'll lose games that we could have won right at the end when it hurts most. Without the deep defensive line, I think this defense is somewhere on the good end of average. With the current defensive line, I think they can control the time of possession from whistle to whistle and get stops in the fourth quarter when it matters most. I'm not willing to give that up for pennies on the dollar.

[BallHawk]

I only count 3 starting caliber DTs.

However, is having depth a problem? Absolutely not. Quite the contrary. It allows you to keep your lineman fresher and makes you flexible in the event of an injury. Also, the option of a trade is always there.

[Merlin]

I got:

Picket
Cole
Jenkins
Montgomery (Depending on the day)

Harrell isn't even close to beating our backup to the backup offensive linemen.

[The Leaper]

I don't see too much depth. Harrell isn't going to make a major impact in 2007, and Jolly also is going to see limited action inside. Pickett and Williams are reliable starters.

To be honest, depth at DT actually could be a huge bonus...as it could prevent us from having to move Jenkins inside in passing situations all the time, which should help make him more effective throughout an entire game.

Personally, I'd like to see Jolly be given a chance at DE. It sounds like he has developed a few pass rushing moves that he could utilize out there...and he probably is a better all-around DE than Montgomery is.

[BlueBrewer]

I got:

Picket
Cole
Jenkins
Montgomery (Depending on the day)

Harrell isn't even close to beating our backup to the backup offensive linemen.


Corey Williams!

[oregonpackfan]

Too much depth is not a problem. It seems like Harrell is having difficulty adjusting to the pro level.

Montgomery may be gone by the time the season begins.

[RashanGary]

I've heard more and more sentiment to unload Williams. Maybe it's just a select few because everyone here seems happy with depth.

[Freak Out]

Now is not the time to unload anybody on the D-line.....that time may come but I think it's much to early to trade any of them.

[RashanGary]

Now is not the time to unload anybody on the D-line.....that time may come but I think it's much to early to trade any of them.

I agree. Next year we might find that we have a bunch of REALLY good ones, but at that time Pickett will be in the last two years of his contract so we have to prepare for his day to come as well.

[The Leaper]

I made a rotation chart that shows how we might be able to take advantage of our current defensive line talent.

I agree on how things can be divided up. Having depth to give Kampman and Jenkins time to rest is a luxury that will pay dividends. With the depth we have, none of our guys should have to be on the field much more than 70% of the time...which will really wear down the opposing OL.

The one area we need to develop someone is behind Kampman. That is where I'd love to see the Packers give Jolly a chance to shine if what he is showing in camp so far also shows up on the field the first game or two of preseason.

[Partial]

It is a bad thing if you need to allocate too much money to one position for players that aren't on the field enough to make a big impact.

We have 5 good guys. That is a lot. I would say 4 would have a good chance at cracking 25-30 rosters.

[The Leaper]

It is a bad thing if you need to allocate too much money to one position for players that aren't on the field enough to make a big impact.

True...if you don't have much room in cap space.

However, we currently have plenty of cap space, so there is no reason to jettison talent at any position for purposes of money. A year or two down the line, that may become more of an issue for Green Bay.

[RashanGary]

It is a bad thing if you need to allocate too much money to one position for players that aren't on the field enough to make a big impact.

We have 5 good guys. That is a lot. I would say 4 would have a good chance at cracking 25-30 rosters.

Kampman, Jenkins and Pickett combined are equal to Freeney alone. We dont' have that much tied up. Leaper also mentioned the cap space. People make the mistake of assuming cap management means not spending at all when that is not the case. It means spending wisely to win. Signing Williams helps us win more than it costs us so it is a good move. The problem is when a players impact is smaller than his cap hit. Those are the bad moves.

As far as Cole is concerned, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think he's a below average player and just having him on the field makes it easier for offenses to attack our good dlineman.

[Bretsky]

I've heard more and more sentiment to unload Williams. Maybe it's just a select few because everyone here seems happy with depth.


Unloading Williams is just pure bullsh@t IMO. Depth at the DL position is a necessity and it's not like we are the Bears as is.

Being the TT questioner I will admit that one of the first thougts I had when I heard Harrell's name drafted was TT doesn't want to pay Williams

[Bretsky]

It is a bad thing if you need to allocate too much money to one position for players that aren't on the field enough to make a big impact.

We have 5 good guys. That is a lot. I would say 4 would have a good chance at cracking 25-30 rosters.

Kampman, Jenkins and Pickett combined are equal to Freeney alone. We dont' have that much tied up. Leaper also mentioned the cap space. People make the mistake of assuming cap management means not spending at all when that is not the case. It means spending wisely to win. Signing Williams helps us win more than it costs us so it is a good move. The problem is when a players impact is smaller than his cap hit. Those are the bad moves.

As far as Cole is concerned, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think he's a below average player and just having him on the field makes it easier for offenses to attack our good dlineman.


Cole IMO is a borderline player. He's not starter caliber. Jolly is to be determined.

I have no problems if TT thinks he has enough depth to trade a DL for a player who will help now; no excused for letting Williams go via free agency though.

[RashanGary]

I have no problems if TT thinks he has enough depth to trade a DL for a player who will help now; no excused for letting Williams go via free agency though.

I have no problem if the player he gets has as much impact on the win/loss record as Williams. My original post shows that I think Williams will have a big impact on our defense and our season because of what it will mean for our 4th quarter defense. If you can bring in a guy that will bring impact the way Williams will impact the line, GREAT. if not, it's not worth unloading Williams for a barely average starter or a 3rd round pick.

[Scott Campbell]

Being the TT questioner I will admit that one of the first thougts I had when I heard Harrell's name drafted was TT doesn't want to pay Williams


I think Ted's methods are becoming clearer every month. He doesn't mind paying guys. He does mind overpaying guys. If Williams and his agent don't get crazy, we'll probably sign him.

[Bretsky]

I have no problems if TT thinks he has enough depth to trade a DL for a player who will help now; no excused for letting Williams go via free agency though.

I have no problem if the player he gets has as much impact on the win/loss record as Williams. My original post shows that I think Williams will have a big impact on our defense and our season because of what it will mean for our 4th quarter defense. If you can bring in a guy that will bring impact the way Williams will impact the line, GREAT. if not, it's not worth unloading Williams for a barely average starter or a 3rd round pick.


:bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap:

[wist43]

There was good depth on the DL b/4 they drafted Harrell... hence, the criticism. As some of us have pointed out from the second they drafted Harrell, he may be a good player, but a bad pick.

As for moving one of these guys b/4 the season starts - don't think that's very likely at all. Maybe Cole would be a candidate to move, but if they move Cole, and Williams leaves as a FA after the season, and Pickett will only have one year left, DT could very quickly become a position of need.

Very happy with how Jolly played in the scrimmage... I've got him as our #1 DT at this point. All of them will play plenty as part of a rotation, but Jolly was clearly the best DT on the field Saturday night.

[Partial]

There was good depth on the DL b/4 they drafted Harrell... hence, the criticism. As some of us have pointed out from the second they drafted Harrell, he may be a good player, but a bad pick.

As for moving one of these guys b/4 the season starts - don't think that's very likely at all. Maybe Cole would be a candidate to move, but if they move Cole, and Williams leaves as a FA after the season, and Pickett will only have one year left, DT could very quickly become a position of need.

Very happy with how Jolly played in the scrimmage... I've got him as our #1 DT at this point. All of them will play plenty as part of a rotation, but Jolly was clearly the best DT on the field Saturday night.

Did they really only sign Pickett for three years? I thought it was four. If it is only three years, I could see them resigning Corey Williams and resigning him. He is two years younger than Pickett. Than again, Pickett isn't that old.

The play of Jolly is very, very good. If he and Harrell can turn into a John Henderson and Marcus Stroud, then we'll be in very good shape to make another run in the next couple of years.

[wist43]

Off the top of my head, I thought it was 3... if it's 4, it buys them some more time.

Still, I don't want to see Williams walk... would much rather have extended Williams, and used the 1st round pick elsewhere.

[Partial]

Off the top of my head, I thought it was 3... if it's 4, it buys them some more time.

Still, I don't want to see Williams walk... would much rather have extended Williams, and used the 1st round pick elsewhere.

Well, if Jolly turns into a player it will look like a bad pick. If he is a fuddy duddy and fizzes out, I can see the reason TT made the Harrell pick.

[wist43]

Off the top of my head, I thought it was 3... if it's 4, it buys them some more time.

Still, I don't want to see Williams walk... would much rather have extended Williams, and used the 1st round pick elsewhere.

Well, if Jolly turns into a player it will look like a bad pick. If he is a fuddy duddy and fizzes out, I can see the reason TT made the Harrell pick.

I think Harrell will be alright - that is to say I don't think he'll be a bust.

That said, even making allowances for his inability to work out and his lack of PT going back to last year, he looked more like a 5th round pick, than a 1st round pick. As I said though, I think he'll be alright.

Jolly on the other hand, showed good quickness, looked very stout holding the point, and showed good ability to get down the line. There's a long way to go, and some guys wear down as camp, and the season, roll by; but, as of now, I've got Jolly at the top of my DT list.

[woodbuck27]

I've heard more and more sentiment to unload Williams. Maybe it's just a select few because everyone here seems happy with depth.

Where are you going with this, JH?

We don't have that much depth at DT to unload Cory Williams. It's a wait and see (how he plays this season). If good, then try to extend him but that has the obvious risk of losing him for dick all.

I say that if TT is smart, then watch him carefully and by 6-8 games in, make a move to extend if that is warranted.

That was your stance on Monday-Tuesday this week JH. Now you've flopped JH. Flopp'd. . .

'Heck'. . . you've gone all Scientific America on us. :)

Why did you do that JH, when your right at the first of the week? We need Cory Williams as it's obvious that Justin Harrell will at least take awhile to develop.

Also Ryan Pickett isn'y exactly flying high in TC to date.

[The Leaper]

We don't have that much depth at DT to unload Cory Williams.

I think we have PLENTY of depth to be able to handle moving Williams. Pickett, Williams, Jolly, Cole, Harrell, Jenkins...they can all play DT.

The issue is getting enough value in return in a trade. There is no point in moving Williams if you don't get enough in return. Hold on to him just in case...because you know what you've got with him.

[Bretsky]

We don't have that much depth at DT to unload Cory Williams.

I think we have PLENTY of depth to be able to handle moving Williams. Pickett, Williams, Jolly, Cole, Harrell, Jenkins...they can all play DT.

The issue is getting enough value in return in a trade. There is no point in moving Williams if you don't get enough in return. Hold on to him just in case...because you know what you've got with him.


I'm fine with moving anybody for fair value in our areas of need..aka...offense

Cole is just a guy IMO; jury still out on Jolly before I join the fluff gang.

[woodbuck27]

We don't have that much depth at DT to unload Cory Williams.

I think we have PLENTY of depth to be able to handle moving Williams. Pickett, Williams, Jolly, Cole, Harrell, Jenkins...they can all play DT.

The issue is getting enough value in return in a trade. There is no point in moving Williams if you don't get enough in return. Hold on to him just in case...because you know what you've got with him.


I'm fine with moving anybody for fair value in our areas of need..aka...offense

Cole is just a guy IMO; jury still out on Jolly before I join the fluff gang.

I agree with that B.

I'd trade Ryan Pickett in a minute if I could get value on 'O'.

I'm not as high on him as some here. I see too much lazy.

[RashanGary]

I agree with the Jolly tidbit, Wist. I watched the tape again and he was really disruptive. He looks like he's ready to take that next step.

[Bretsky]

I agree with the Jolly tidbit, Wist. I watched the tape again and he was really disruptive. He looks like he's ready to take that next step.


I didn't see the game; I just want to see him do it for a bit in the preseason be4 I join the Jolly Aide gang

[RashanGary]

Hawk
Jennings
Colledge
Spitz
Jolly
Moll

All from one draft. By Wolf's standards that is two years worth of good drafting.

[Bretsky]

Hawk
Jennings
Colledge
Spitz
Jolly
Moll

All from one draft. By Wolf's standards that is two years worth of good drafting.


Too early IMO to say that

From my vantage point Jennings, Colledge, and Hawk should be solid NFL Pros

I am hopeful but not sold in Spitz

Jolly and Moll are prospects at this point

[RashanGary]

haha Bretsky,

We shall see.

[KYPack]

I agree with the Jolly tidbit, Wist. I watched the tape again and he was really disruptive. He looks like he's ready to take that next step.


I didn't see the game; I just want to see him do it for a bit in the preseason be4 I join the Jolly Aide gang

Nah.

Wouldn't they be called the Jolly Rodgers?

[Partial]

Hawk
Jennings
Colledge
Spitz
Jolly
Moll

All from one draft. By Wolf's standards that is two years worth of good drafting.

Everyone had a good draft that year, though. It was a very deep draft. Next year should be relatively similar. It looks like he will get a starter or two out of this draft.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Everybody had a good draft? What?

[Partial]

Everybody had a good draft? What?

I would think most teams got 3-4 starters out of that draft or will in time. It's not like Thompson was the only person who had the opportunity to draft good players.

That draft was very, very good. There was plenty of talent gobbled up by every team league wide.

[HarveyWallbangers]

3-4 starters for every team in that draft means half of the players in that draft will be starters? Not likely.