And The Winner Is......

[Packnut]

Good-bye Mr Rayner. You filled in for a year and were nothing more than average which does'nt cut it in the NFL.

I totally agree with this scouts take on the kicker battle. Thompson struck gold with the "Colorado kid".

http://pu2006.typepad.com/packer_update/

[Green Bud Packer]

The 52 yarder against Pitt sealed the deal for me. If Crosby were to get cut he'd be signed by another team pronto.

Rayner should be gone with the first cuts.Thomps will say something about cutting him now so he can have a chance to catch on with another team.

Looks like another improvment over last season.

[Packnut]

The 52 yarder against Pitt sealed the deal for me. If Crosby were to get cut he'd be signed by another team pronto.

Rayner should be gone with the first cuts.Thomps will say something about cutting him now so he can have a chance to catch on with another team.

Looks like another improvment over last season.

To me, this one is a no-brainer. Let's just say for the sake of arguement that they are equal right now. the difference is Crosby is a rookie where as Rayner has a year of starting under his belt.

I think Rayner gets the boot after game 3.

[Zool]

I think Rayner gets the boot after game 3.
Clever.

Also, agreed. Thanks for the season Dave.

[Deputy Nutz]

Sure it is easy to kick in Green Bay in August, but it is a whole different story in December and January, November ain't no joke either. Raynor struggled, but yet he gain experience last year. I think they both have a strong leg.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Yep I think Crosby will win the job. Plus Rayner wasn't a rookie last year, tried out for others team and they didn't want him.

[cheesner]

The 52 yarder against Pitt sealed the deal for me. If Crosby were to get cut he'd be signed by another team pronto.

Rayner should be gone with the first cuts.Thomps will say something about cutting him now so he can have a chance to catch on with another team.

Looks like another improvment over last season.
I would keep him around a little longer. You never know with injuries, you would hate to leave yourself short in that area.

[The Leaper]

I've been saying it for weeks now.

Rayner's ass is the one on the line. If his performance was acceptable, we wouldn't have drafted a kicker. Either Rayner beats Crosby, or he's gone. Too close to call meant that Crosby was going to get the benefit of the doubt. That was CLEARLY how it was going to play out.

Rayner has had 2 years to develop in the NFL. If he can't beat Crosby now, he never will...because Crosby will also continue to improve as he spends more time in the NFL, and will do so at a greater pace due to his current level of inexperience.

[Partial]

I think if it stays how it is now with them within a a few % points of eachother they will keep Raynor.

As Nutz alluded to, kicking in November is a lot tougher than kicking in August and Raynor has the experience of doing this.

Plus, continuity is something that should not be overlooked.

Both look like they're going to be the real deal in my opinion.

[PackerBlues]

I think if it stays how it is now with them within a a few % points of eachother they will keep Raynor.

As Nutz alluded to, kicking in November is a lot tougher than kicking in August and Raynor has the experience of doing this.

Plus, continuity is something that should not be overlooked.

Both look like they're going to be the real deal in my opinion.

ya, except Thompson is not big on continuity, our current Offense is proof of that. Nope, Thompson is into his draft picks, which means that if the battle is close, even if Raynor seems to be on top........ Thompson is going to go with his draft pick.

[SkinBasket]

ya, except Thompson is not big on continuity, our current Offense is proof of that. Nope, Thompson is into his draft picks, which means that if the battle is close, even if Raynor seems to be on top........ Thompson is going to go with his draft pick.

Did you want to provide some examples of this happening before?

[Zool]

Cory Rodgers and Craig Bragg.

Did I win?

[SkinBasket]

Cory Rodgers and Craig Bragg.

Did I win?

I guess I was hoping for something a little more significant than that as a basis for such a broad generalization, but sure, I can declare you a wiener.

[Packnut]

See, I don't get the whole " it's different kicking in GB in Nov/Dec" as a basis for Raynor having an edge. Raynor was %75! Hello???????

75% SUCKS. Can someone explain to me what Raynor did that was so impressive? It was just another cheap stop-gap measure by our GM to fill a spot.

[Packnut]

Here's another FACT for the people who claim Teddy is doing such a marvelous job. Angelo finds Robbie Gould on the scrap heap and the guy is a stud. Teddy finds Raynor on the scrap heap and he hits 75%. Pretty easy example................

[The Shadow]

Here's another FACT for the people who claim Teddy is doing such a marvelous job. Angelo finds Robbie Gould on the scrap heap and the guy is a stud. Teddy finds Raynor on the scrap heap and he hits 75%. Pretty easy example................

Perhaps you should go off and root for the Bears, then.

[RashanGary]

I agree that it's Crosby. His FG% is better.

[RashanGary]

Here's another FACT for the people who claim Teddy is doing such a marvelous job. Angelo finds Robbie Gould on the scrap heap and the guy is a stud. Teddy finds Raynor on the scrap heap and he hits 75%. Pretty easy example................

hahah. . . A couple weeks ago you were saying how you were right in the middle and how you liked what Thompson is doing.

Find an identity and stick with it. It's fine to flip flop on individual issues, but you reinvent yourself every couple weeks.

[MadtownPacker]

Here's another FACT for the people who claim Teddy is doing such a marvelous job. Angelo finds Robbie Gould on the scrap heap and the guy is a stud. Teddy finds Raynor on the scrap heap and he hits 75%. Pretty easy example................Well really for both guys being off the scrap heap they did well. Yeah the bear clown kicked better but Rayner wasn't terrible. Only problem I have with him is short kicks. But for picking him out I gotta give props not blame to TT.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Most PKs don't come into the league doing well from the start. Rayner will be kicking in the NFL this year and for years to come. He was also a 6th round draft pick by the Colts in 2005 that became expendable when the Colts got Vinatieri. Not a bad prospect at all.

Matt Stover had under 73 FG% each of his first three years before getting good.

Jason Elam was a 3rd round pick who hit 74% his first year.

John Carney went 2 of 5 before getting cut by the Buccaneers his first year.

Rian Lindell hit under 75% through his first four years in the league.

Adam Vinatieri hit under 80% in three of his first four years in the league.

Mike Nugent was a 2nd round pick who hit 78% his first year.

Those guys finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, and 7th in FG% last year.

Guys like Gould and Longwell don't fall into your lap very often.

[Carolina_Packer]

I think it's Crosby's job to lose. Even though Raynor has a year on him, you don't "waste" a draft pick on a kicker (well, Mike Sherman does, but let's not go down that painful, well-weathered road, shall we) unless you're going to give him a good chance to make the club. Raynor needs to be the second coming of (insert your favorite all-time great kicker here) or he's on the street.

Geez, we got us a kicker thread! What's next? Who should be our long snapper?

[woodbuck27]

I think if it stays how it is now with them within a a few % points of eachother they will keep Raynor.

As Nutz alluded to, kicking in November is a lot tougher than kicking in August and Raynor has the experience of doing this.

Plus, continuity is something that should not be overlooked.

Both look like they're going to be the real deal in my opinion.

ya, except Thompson is not big on continuity, our current Offense is proof of that. Nope, Thompson is into his draft picks, which means that if the battle is close, even if Raynor seems to be on top........ Thompson is going to go with his draft pick.

Now. Isn't that the TRUTH.

In order for DR to beat out Crosby he would have to look very much the man in the first two Pre-Season games.

I agree that in normal circumstances that one would lean to the experienced kicker. Especially given the harsh conditions at Lambeau but the TRUTH of it is that TT will want to look good and not toss away that draft pick for Crosby.

We all must have sensed that DR was history when TT selected Mason Crosby. He does look very good to date. It's all upside with the rookie and TT.

TT will soon play the nice guy (maybe. . . it's just that :) ) and very soon allow for DR the catch on elsewhere, before the EX. schedule goes much further.

It's been a very close battle and will no doubt be difficult for DR to be cut. He is young enough and strong enough to bounce back elsewhere.

[The Leaper]

As Nutz alluded to, kicking in November is a lot tougher than kicking in August and Raynor has the experience of doing this.

His experience was missing every other kick it seemed...thus, why Thompson drafted another kicker.

In the end, Rayner should be better than Crosby right now if they are equally talented. He's had 2 years in the NFL, one as a starting kicker, to work out kinks in his style and get accustomed to the league.

So, if Rayner isn't BETTER than Crosby, then he's as good as gone.

And when it comes right down to it, Crosby has started to pull away from Rayner in the last week. Their % previously was almost equal...now Crosby has a 3% edge, plus the 52 yarder he nailed in game one. That is what you would expect...because as I've pointed out, a less experienced guy is going to see more improvement in the short term as he gets more reps and becomes comfortable in his surroundings.

[Packnut]

Here's another FACT for the people who claim Teddy is doing such a marvelous job. Angelo finds Robbie Gould on the scrap heap and the guy is a stud. Teddy finds Raynor on the scrap heap and he hits 75%. Pretty easy example................

hahah. . . A couple weeks ago you were saying how you were right in the middle and how you liked what Thompson is doing.

Find an identity and stick with it. It's fine to flip flop on individual issues, but you reinvent yourself every couple weeks.

Nope wrong again, but what's new? Unlike some, I look at the whole picture. I don't bash blindly nor do I close my eyes and hope for the best. That's what you fail to understand. It does'nt have to be love or hate Thompson. There is a middle road. He deserves credit for the good, but he also need's to be held accountable for the bad.

[Packnut]

Here's another FACT for the people who claim Teddy is doing such a marvelous job. Angelo finds Robbie Gould on the scrap heap and the guy is a stud. Teddy finds Raynor on the scrap heap and he hits 75%. Pretty easy example................

Perhaps you should go off and root for the Bears, then.

Ha! Typical Teddy lover's response. Come up with a stupid smart ass answer and ignore the fact. Same pattern as always........... :roll:

[BallHawk]

Here's another FACT for the people who claim Teddy is doing such a marvelous job. Angelo finds Robbie Gould on the scrap heap and the guy is a stud. Teddy finds Raynor on the scrap heap and he hits 75%. Pretty easy example................

Sometimes it's just hit and miss. GMs can't be right all the time. Angelo has made his fair share of mistakes, as has Ted. Jerry has been a GM since 2001, Ted since 2005. We can't accurately compare the two GMs, as of now.

Sure, Angelo hit with Gould. He also missed with Michael Haynes. Ted hit with AJ Hawk, Ted missed with Ahmad Carroll. You win some, you lose some.

Angelo has accomplished more then Ted, but he's been around the block a few more times then Ted. You can't expect Ted to be up to par with guys that have more experience.

Listen, I'm not a TT lover, I'm not a TT hater. I'll side with Ted 7 out of 10 times, but I'm not going to back him up just for the hell of it.

Ted isn't doing marvelous, I don't think anybody was expecting him to. We just have to let time take its course and see what happens.

[The Shadow]

Here's another FACT for the people who claim Teddy is doing such a marvelous job. Angelo finds Robbie Gould on the scrap heap and the guy is a stud. Teddy finds Raynor on the scrap heap and he hits 75%. Pretty easy example................

Perhaps you should go off and root for the Bears, then.

Ha! Typical Teddy lover's response. Come up with a stupid smart ass answer and ignore the fact. Same pattern as always........... :roll:

We're now talking patterns???
The "I-hate-Ted-Thompson-no-matter-what-he-does" rap has gone from curious to silly to juvenile to just plain pathetic.
A new point from you- ANY new point - would be most welcome.

[Partial]

Here's another FACT for the people who claim Teddy is doing such a marvelous job. Angelo finds Robbie Gould on the scrap heap and the guy is a stud. Teddy finds Raynor on the scrap heap and he hits 75%. Pretty easy example................


The answer is a simple "sometimes you get lucky".

Do you think Bill Walsh would have let Ryan Longwell go if he had known he would have gone on to become at one point the NFL's most accurate kicker of all time? Does that mean that Bill Walsh is a bad GM? No, it means you win some and you lose some, and sometimes a player will surprise you.

By no means is Rayner a bad kicker. He isn't a world beater but I could see him being in the top 5-10 as he matures as a player.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Most PKs don't come into the league doing well from the start. Rayner will be kicking in the NFL this year and for years to come. He was also a 6th round draft pick by the Colts in 2005 that became expendable when the Colts got Vinatieri. Not a bad prospect at all.

Matt Stover had under 73 FG% each of his first three years before getting good.

Jason Elam was a 3rd round pick who hit 74% his first year.

John Carney went 2 of 5 before getting cut by the Buccaneers his first year.

Rian Lindell hit under 75% through his first four years in the league.

Adam Vinatieri hit under 80% in three of his first four years in the league.

Mike Nugent was a 2nd round pick who hit 78% his first year.

Those guys finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, and 7th in FG% last year.

Guys like Gould and Longwell don't fall into your lap very often.
Just had to quote this to get it reposted, it's a fantastic point.

I'll admit that I'm a Raynor fan, there's doesn't seem to be any argument that he has talent. Crosby is showing equal talent and like others have said, he may have a higher ceiling. I'll still root for Raynor to make the team, but if it's Crosby, he's got my full support.

[The Leaper]

Sure, Angelo hit with Gould. He also missed with Michael Haynes. Ted hit with AJ Hawk, Ted missed with Ahmad Carroll. You win some, you lose some.

Ted did not pick Ahmad Carroll.

Trying to argue against Thompson's draft production is pretty stupid. I can certainly see the arguments against the guy in other capacities, but in terms of drafting quality talent he is very solid. Few of Thompson's picks have turned out to be complete duds...which is pretty good when he has over 30 picks to his credit. He also seems to find solid picks in the top 100...which is where you really have to find capable players consistently. Every GM is going to miss regularly on guys in the 6th and 7th round...you just hope to hit gold there every once in awhile.

[BallHawk]

Do you think Bill Walsh would have let Ryan Longwell go if he had known he would have gone on to become at one point the NFL's most accurate kicker of all time? Does that mean that Bill Walsh is a bad GM? No, it means you win some and you lose some, and sometimes a player will surprise you.

Bill Walsh wasn't the GM when Ryan Longwell was claimed off waivers in '97. I don't remember who it was, but Walsh was '99 to '01.

[The Leaper]

By no means is Rayner a bad kicker. He isn't a world beater but I could see him being in the top 5-10 as he matures as a player.

I agree with that. Rayner is not a bad kicker, and he likely will go on to reasonable success elsewhere. I just think it is slowly becoming evident that Crosby has just as strong a leg and probably a little more accuracy. Crosby looks like a good draft pick to this point.

With good kickers being in rather short supply, hopefully Thompson can work out a conditional draft pick for Rayner from someone who wants to make sure they get him instead of allowing him to hit the open market.

[BallHawk]

Sure, Angelo hit with Gould. He also missed with Michael Haynes. Ted hit with AJ Hawk, Ted missed with Ahmad Carroll. You win some, you lose some.

Ted did not pick Ahmad Carroll.

Damn, I always get the '04 and '05 drafts mixed up. :x

[BallHawk]

By no means is Rayner a bad kicker. He isn't a world beater but I could see him being in the top 5-10 as he matures as a player.

He isn't bad, but he's average. You just can't ignore that he was a 75% kicker. For the number of attempts he had, the only kicker worse then him was Olindo Mare.

As an example, Stephen Gostkowski was statically better then Rayner last year, as a rookie. Mason Crosby was just as good a prospect, perhaps even a better prospect, then Gostkowski.

The ceiling with Crosby is higher then it is with Rayner. That's what it really comes down to, with me at least.

[Partial]

Do you think Bill Walsh would have let Ryan Longwell go if he had known he would have gone on to become at one point the NFL's most accurate kicker of all time? Does that mean that Bill Walsh is a bad GM? No, it means you win some and you lose some, and sometimes a player will surprise you.

Bill Walsh wasn't the GM when Ryan Longwell was claimed off waivers in '97. I don't remember who it was, but Walsh was '99 to '01.

Way to completely miss the point :D

[Partial]

By no means is Rayner a bad kicker. He isn't a world beater but I could see him being in the top 5-10 as he matures as a player.

He isn't bad, but he's average. You just can't ignore that he was a 75% kicker. For the number of attempts he had, the only kicker worse then him was Olindo Mare.

As an example, Stephen Gostkowski was statically better then Rayner last year, as a rookie. Mason Crosby was just as good a prospect, perhaps even a better prospect, then Gostkowski.

The ceiling with Crosby is higher then it is with Rayner. That's what it really comes down to, with me at least.

I am too lazy to look up the stats but I would think that he had a higher percentage of his kicks from 40+ yards. He seems to be alright. I don't really care who wins but I would guess that Rayner is in the drivers seat given how neck and neck they are.

[HarveyWallbangers]

He isn't bad, but he's average. You just can't ignore that he was a 75% kicker. For the number of attempts he had, the only kicker worse then him was Olindo Mare.

As an example, Stephen Gostkowski was statically better then Rayner last year, as a rookie. Mason Crosby was just as good a prospect, perhaps even a better prospect, then Gostkowski.

The ceiling with Crosby is higher then it is with Rayner. That's what it really comes down to, with me at least.

Bad example, in my opinion. Gostkowski made 20 of 26--which is a slightly better percentage of 76.9%. However, he only had five attempts over 40 yards. Rayner made 74.3%, but had 14 attempts over 40 yards. There kickoff average and touchbacks were virtually even also.

Rayner is no slouch as a prospect. He was a 6th round pick--just like Crosby. Most kickers take a couple of years before they are All-Pros--just like any other position. I think Crosby will win the job, but I don't expect him to be a world beater his first year. I think Crosby has a higher ceiling, but not a ton higher. To me, they are pretty similar in a lot of ways. Both are good prospects, and both will be kicking in the NFL for a long time.

Crosby made just 19 of 28 FGs last year--which is 67.9%. He had 14 attempts over 40 though. He was 21 of 28 the year before--for 75%. He was 23 of 29 in 2004--for 79%. It's not like he's guaranteed to kick ass.

The thing I did like about Rayner is that when he had a miss or was having a rough game, he didn't let it get to him. He responded. He missed two FGs in the rain against Minnesota, but made the game winner. He did that in other games. To me, that shows a lot. That's the kind of thing you look for in a young player.

[the_idle_threat]

Geez, we got us a kicker thread! What's next? Who should be our long snapper?

Good point. :lol:

We've got two very talented young kickers. We'll keep one and the other will go on to play for another team. Probably quite well, too. Seems like a good problem to have.

Really doesn't matter to me which one sticks around, because they seem to be pretty close in terms of talent.

[Partial]

Geez, we got us a kicker thread! What's next? Who should be our long snapper?

Good point. :lol:

We've got two very talented young kickers. We'll keep one and the other will go on to play for another team. Probably quite well, too. Seems like a good problem to have.

Really doesn't matter to me which one sticks around, because they seem to be pretty close in terms of talent.

Same. I would say stick with the guy you have if they evaluate to even unless players don't like him. Continuity is good.

[woodbuck27]

Here's another FACT for the people who claim Teddy is doing such a marvelous job. Angelo finds Robbie Gould on the scrap heap and the guy is a stud. Teddy finds Raynor on the scrap heap and he hits 75%. Pretty easy example................

Sometimes it's just hit and miss. GMs can't be right all the time. Angelo has made his fair share of mistakes, as has Ted. Jerry has been a GM since 2001, Ted since 2005. We can't accurately compare the two GMs, as of now.

Sure, Angelo hit with Gould. He also missed with Michael Haynes. Ted hit with AJ Hawk, Ted missed with Ahmad Carroll. You win some, you lose some.

Angelo has accomplished more then Ted, but he's been around the block a few more times then Ted. You can't expect Ted to be up to par with guys that have more experience.

Listen, I'm not a TT lover, I'm not a TT hater. I'll side with Ted 7 out of 10 times, but I'm not going to back him up just for the hell of it.

Ted isn't doing marvelous, I don't think anybody was expecting him to. We just have to let time take its course and see what happens.

Smart stance BH.

I have no doubt that TT is doing the best he is capable of and the main reason for that is he just didn't come to us all dressed, as advertised.

We simply got a simple man who was given an opportunity to manage one of, if not the best organization's in the NFL. He went from office boy to being our GM in the echo of the likes of Ron Wolfe. He has had to learn the job.

Tough act to follow. RW.

He won't be measured up against Mike Sherman but the man Mike Sherman was measured against. Ted Thompson also was handed a team with an aging NFL Icon at QB (a palyer with a massive fan following and one of the most beloved people in all of PRO sports). A QB on the precipice of setting every record for a QB known the GOD.

It hasn't been easy for TT nor would it be for anyone.