Three rookie starters and a 1st year starter? ?

[RashanGary]

Holes heading into this season:

RB
FB
TE
SS


Rookie or 1st year starters:

Mason Crosby
Brandon Jackson (comparable to Jennings)
Korey Hall (comparable to Moll)
Atari Bigby (comparable to Poppinga)


These guys are going to have some say in our season. The playmakers end up telling most of the story and we have a good number of those guys, but we need these guys to not be severe weak links. If this group can play average or slightly below average football I think we have enough surrounding them to be a good team. If these guys flop though, we might lose some games that we should win. I'll be watching these guys closely in the Jax game. They are wildcards to our season. I'm not one to fear youth and I have confidence in Ted Thompson so I'm not panicking, but I am watching to see how it goes.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

At TE we will probably be below average this year with the guys we have right now. Franks has lost a lot, and Lee and the rest of the TE's are just guys. Not much potential at this position if at all.

At SS I hope we keep Manuel on the 53 man roster. I think he sucks, but if Bigby proves he can't cover worth a dam, its better to have Manuel who is at least servable. If Bigby is decent in coverage, I think this position won't be that bad this year.

FB - I think b/w Hall and Miree we will find a decent starter.

RB - I like what I have seem from Jackson so far, he has shown that he can play. However can he hold up all season? Is there enough depth? I don't know.

[Carolina_Packer]

Holes heading into this season:

RB
FB
TE
SS


Rookie or 1st year starters:

Mason Crosby
Brandon Jackson (comparable to Jennings)
Korey Hall (comparable to Moll)
Atari Bigby (comparable to Poppinga)


These guys are going to have some say in our season. The playmakers end up telling most of the story and we have a good number of those guys, but we need these guys to not be severe weak links. If this group can play average or slightly below average football I think we have enough surrounding them to be a good team. If these guys flop though, we might lose some games that we should win. I'll be watching these guys closely in the Jax game. They are wildcards to our season. I'm not one to fear youth and I have confidence in Ted Thompson so I'm not panicking, but I am watching to see how it goes.

As the O-line goes, so goes the Pack offense. It's not like we have Rex Grossman at QB where he'll have mental lapses. Favre of course is not perfect, but he knows the offense, knows where guys should be going, etc. The question with him is decision making under pressure (always has been). As much as his success has been measured on taking chances and being a gunslinger, it has also led to some disaster.

RB, Jackson and Morency will be OK, if not spectacular. I'm OK with them being average, if we move the chains.

TE, I know Bubbas has been the subject of many a thread here, but I have this feeling he's going to bounce back. It's like he's at the edge of the cliff and he knows he's going to fall off if he doesn't fight and claw. I don't know why we can't get more out of Donald Lee...seems to look the part.

SS, Bigby is stepping up, but we need him or someone to show consistency, as much as athletecism. I'm waiting for Manuel to say f-you guys, this is my job! You ain't taking it! So far...

FB, I think Miree was showing enough to be encouraging last year. Let's just hope he stays healthy. I think Korey Hall will become a fan favorite for special teams play and actually might become like a Brad Hoover secret weapon.

If we end up having the type of D that we had against Seattle, we could give our offense more chances to cover whatever issues they may or may not have of moving the ball consistently. When we lose those chances by being a porous defense or allowing long, clock eating drives, that's when Favre puts pressure on himself and presses too much. I'd love to see him stay within himself and do what we know he is capable of doing, but I think the D might have a lot to do with that feeling. Look what Grossman was able to do having a D that could get him a lot of chances. Now, think of someone as talented as Favre.

[Harlan Huckleby]

RB - I like what I have seem from Jackson so far, he has shown that he can play. However can he hold up all season? Is there enough depth?

Unlikely and no.

[Partial]

I really think this post is more of a testament of Thompson not doing his job well.

Honestly, there is no way he should be drafting that many starters in their first year. That means the team is not good and doesn't have that much depth. Ron Wolfe said 3 starters constitutes a quality draft; However, most of those people were not starting for a year or two beyond the first and second round picks.

A starter does not necessarily dictate a good player, after all.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I really think this post is more of a testament of Thompson not doing his job well.

Honestly, there is no way he should be drafting that many starters in their first year. That means the team is not good and doesn't have that much depth. Ron Wolfe said 3 starters constitutes a quality draft; However, most of those people were not starting for a year or two beyond the first and second round picks.

A starter does not necessarily dictate a good player, after all.

Well, to be fair, one of the starters would be a kicker, one would be a RB, and and the other would be a FB. Not exactly tough positions for a rookie to play. Both would probably be in platoon situations if Morency and Miree had not missed most of camp. Bigby is in his 3rd year, so he doesn't even really go to your point.

[RashanGary]

I really think this post is more of a testament of Thompson not doing his job well.

Honestly, there is no way he should be drafting that many starters in their first year. That means the team is not good and doesn't have that much depth. Ron Wolfe said 3 starters constitutes a quality draft; However, most of those people were not starting for a year or two beyond the first and second round picks.

A starter does not necessarily dictate a good player, after all.

I think it still has to do with the team he inherited. I believe finding good starters in the UFA market or via trade is very hard. I think a team is built over the course of the previous 6 or 7 years, sometimes if you have a couple good HOF pieces (like Favre) it goes beyond that 7 years. 4 of our last 7 years were pretty bad. That still has an effect on what we do today. While most of this team is "Thompsons", he did have to do it quicker and differenlty than he would have if good things happened under the MS reign.

I do think this has a bearing on our team. The RB position is probably the only one we are really counting on for a high level of contribution. FB and SS are a little less important if you have surrounding pieces, they just have to be OK. The K is not really in the conversation IMO. Jackson playing well is pretty important to our season unless Morency comes back and plays well all year.

[The Leaper]

I really think this post is more of a testament of Thompson not doing his job well.

Honestly, there is no way he should be drafting that many starters in their first year. That means the team is not good and doesn't have that much depth.

Well, we went 4-12 two years ago despite having a HOF caliber QB...so clearly the team at that point wasn't good and had virtually no depth. Thinking Thompson can somehow turn that into a title contender in just over a year is a little crazy IMO.

I think Thompson is correct in building the youth on the roster...that is how you build a team like Philly or New England who is continually a threat. The problem was that there was basically NO youth on the roster when he took over...because Sherman did not value developing young players in bulk.

The drag is that rebuilding a team in the manner that Thompson is takes 3-5 years to take hold...which is roughly the period it takes for young guys to fully mature and reach their prime as players. You are starting to see some of the benefits of what Thompson is doing now, even though the roster still is extremely young. Just project that forward 3 more years...most of the current guys will be MUCH improved, and there will be even more quality depth behind them.

The positive is that once you build a team in this manner, it is much more difficult to lose what you've built in a short period of time. Teams that primarily use free agency to retool often ride a roller coaster...one good year, one horrible year, one good year, one horrible year. That is because using guys not familar to your scheme takes more time to cultivate a comfort zone, where building through youth gives you a constant supply of talent that KNOWS your system and is ready in camp each year to take a step forward, where FAs can take camp and much of their first season to get up to speed.

Collins is a fine example...he was one of Thompson's first picks, and showed promise and mistakes aplenty his first 2 years. On a contending team, he probably would not have been starting...but he did in Green Bay. Yes, that shows our team was poor...but it doesn't mean Thompson isn't doing his job. Collins is just starting to come into his own...and should CONTINUE to improve in the next 2-3 years before he enters his prime as a player. You'll see more of the same from guys in the 2006 and 2007 draft classes in the years ahead. Trying to sink Thompson over the play of these young kids is foolishness when it is common knowledge that it takes 3-5 years for guys to fully develop.

You can certainly take it to Thompson for not doing enough to bring in veteran talent to improve the team short term...but in terms of cultivating young talent, Thompson has it right. Over time, it WILL pay dividends.

[Bretsky]

I really think this post is more of a testament of Thompson not doing his job well.

Honestly, there is no way he should be drafting that many starters in their first year. That means the team is not good and doesn't have that much depth. Ron Wolfe said 3 starters constitutes a quality draft; However, most of those people were not starting for a year or two beyond the first and second round picks.

A starter does not necessarily dictate a good player, after all.

The turtle didn't cross the street fast enough for free agency :lol:
So the draft picks must start. Maybe they will be amazing, but in years when you ingore free agency rookies or unproven players will start by necessity.

[MJZiggy]

Maybe they will be amazing, but in years when you ingore free agency rookies or unproven players will start by necessity.

I don't think that's true at all. If you have returning starters or backups ready to move up at each position, then ignoring free agency that year means nothing.

[Bretsky]

Maybe they will be amazing, but in years when you ingore free agency rookies or unproven players will start by necessity.

I don't think that's true at all. If you have returning starters or backups ready to move up at each position, then ignoring free agency that year means nothing.

If you have returning starters then they are not moving up, are they ?
Which backups on the roster that were not starting last year were ready to move up and are starting this year ?

[Packnut]

Maybe they will be amazing, but in years when you ingore free agency rookies or unproven players will start by necessity.

I don't think that's true at all. If you have returning starters or backups ready to move up at each position, then ignoring free agency that year means nothing.


Ah, but that's the point. We DON'T have any quality at TE or FB for that matter and there were guys out there who did'nt cost much. Miree will go the same way as the other injured guys. He has a full history of being a China doll and will never stay healthy.

We will be forced to rely on Franks/Lee which will rank at the bottom of TE production all season and will also have to rely on a "project" at FB.

People need to stop making excuses for what are obvious mistakes that will hurt this team.

[RashanGary]

Rookies starting typically hurt your team
UFA's often times hurt your team more in the long run while helping your team in the short term
The Packers had an aging roster and zero depth three years ago
The Packers fell apart two years ago
Thompson had choices that are designed to build toward the ultimate goal of getting to and winning the SB


I believe that with 32 teams in the league, you have to find ways to make yoru team stand out. You have to find a way to get more talent than the all of the opposition. They are all paid well to scout and find talent. All teams get the same amount of $$ to spend with a hard cap. The team than can find the most talent and then fit the most talent under their cap will win. Because you are facing 32 other teams, a few of which have made good decisions for 6, 7, 8 years in a row, it's hard to go from making a bunch of bad decisions to raising your level to the level of those who made years of good decisions in one off season. You have to bear down and start making good decisions and over time things will start to fall in place. If you try to do it quickly, you will likely come up short because just as you are peaking you will be running out of money and the cycle will start over before you reach the top (The top is the place where the consistant good decision makers lie) The only hope is to be one of those consistant good decision makers and that takes time as consistance by definition is something that was done over time. We have a HOF QB so we might be able to do it a little quicker and I predict a decent year, but without Favre this team would have been years away and still is a couple years away without Favre. There was nothing that could have been done to raise us to the NE or SD level in two years. The only hope is to get down to buisness, make good decisions and the team will be built into a winner. That's what TT is doing. I've been and continue to be happy with the job he does and the methods at which he does it becuase I believe the quick turn around is something that good teams who had an off year do, not something that horrible teams who have to start over do.


Now if you build the base the right way and you have a HOF player who you know can get you there now but is running out of gas, you might want to take a stab and forgo the idea of sustaining success. I'm not a big fan of that all or nothing approach but teams have done it and succeeded (tampa for example). We were nothing like one of those teams. If we took that stab all it would have done was helped us win 6 games instead of 4 and 9 games instead of 8 and now we'd be out of money, without AJ Hawk. We'd be a boderline team. It's a hard reality, but this team just needs to be built right from the base up. Fans are emotional so it can be hard to accept, but it is what it is. We sucked, we're getting better. Deal with it.

[RashanGary]

Lets say your team is the sum of your last 8 years.

Packers


7 Wolf
8 Wolf
1 Wolf/Sherman
5 Sherman
4 Sherman
2 Sherman
6 Thompson
9 Thompson

5.25 = The average weight of your building blocks

NE

9
8
6
10
9
9
5
9

8.1 = The average weight of their building blocks



What is a couple UFA's going to do except make it harder down the road when you really have the sum of your past offseasons in order, giving you an oppertunity to win a championship. NE can go out and splurge and score a 12 out of 10 which will bump them up that extra notch. All we would do is go from crappy to average or average to good. Hardly worth what your giving up (a real chance at the SB)

It's done over time. As hard as that is to comprehend and/or accept, that is the way it is. Get used to it.

[Partial]

dude what the hell are you talking about?

[RashanGary]

dude what the hell are you talking about?


I know it's hard to comprehend so I don't expect everyone to understand. I'll just use Thompsons whole career as my long term evidence and starting this year people will just accpept it like the accept everything else without understanding it.

[Zool]

Seriously...wtf

Are you talking about drafted players that are still on the team?

[Partial]

dude what the hell are you talking about?


I know it's hard to comprehend so I don't expect everyone to understand. I'll just use Thompsons whole career as my long term evidence and starting this year people will just accpept it like the accept everything else without understanding it.

I don't understand what the random numbers are. If they are players drafted did you actually get the figures for new england or pull that outta your ass?

[Spaulding]

Where's the damn rosetta stone when you need it :D

[RashanGary]

haha, sorry Partial. I had just gotten in an arguement wtih the little lady. I was nice to her and then I took it out on you.

Anyway, I meant a total grade. It was a generic way of showing that this seasons team is the sum of the last 8+ years and not a direct representative of what happened this year. It was meant to show that years of solid building is about the only way a team can be built because one good off season can't compete with 7 in a row.