Trade Market Clearer for K

[Bretsky]

Notes: Trade market clearer
By TOM SILVERSTEIN
tsilverstein@journalsentinel.com
Posted: Aug. 26, 2007

Green Bay - As the kicking battle between Dave Rayner and Mason Crosby reaches its conclusion, the Green Bay Packers know much more about who will be interested in offering a trade proposal.
The teams most likely to be interested in a kicker appear to be the New York Giants, Atlanta Falcons and Dallas Cowboys.

The ultimate scenario for the Packers would be if the Giants and Cowboys both decide they want one of Green Bay's two kickers. Getting two teams in the same division to bid against one another could result in the Packers getting far more than they ever thought.

The Giants' situation is the most desperate after their two kickers, Lawrence Tynes and rookie Josh Huston, combined to go 1 for 4 on field-goal attempts Saturday in an exhibition loss to the New York Jets. Coach Tom Coughlin said after the game that he definitely would be exploring the market.

In Dallas, veteran Martin Gramatica pulled a hamstring on a kickoff against Houston Saturday night and his status remains up in the air. Gramatica, who received a $200,000 signing bonus when he re-signed with the team in the off-season, missed one extra point and had an extremely poor kickoff before exiting against the Texans.

His competition, sixth-round pick Nick Folk, has hit all three of his field goals in the exhibition season, including a 52-yarder, and has been consistent. Like Crosby, he has not kicked in a regular-season game and hasn't faced the weekly pressure of performing in the National Football League.

The Cowboys probably would be interested in Rayner, who has a year as a kickoff man and a year as a full-time kicker under his belt, more than they would Crosby. But if Gramatica's hamstring injury isn't serious they'll probably stand pat.

The Falcons are going with veteran Billy Cundiff at this time. Cundiff has been outstanding on field goals, hitting on five of six, but he does not have a strong leg and his average distance on kickoffs (66.2 yards) ranks 30th among kickers in exhibition play.
Opponents are averaging 41.6 yards per return on his five kickoffs.

Rayner beat out Cundiff last year in Packers camp and might appeal to the Falcons if he's available. Rayner ranks first in the NFL in average kickoff distance with a 71.6 mark.

For the summer, Crosby has hit 85% of his field-goal attempts in practice and Rayner has hit 81%. Both kickers are 3 for 3 on field goals in exhibition games.

As for keeping both Rayner and Crosby, the Packers won't rule it out, although coach Mike McCarthy refused to get into the specifics of how that would work.
"We continue to talk about keeping the best 53, and the way those two guys are kicking the football, you could make an argument for that," McCarthy said. "We'll see what happens."

Return engagement: McCarthy did not rule out the return of quarterback Ingle Martin, who was released Friday.

The Packers want to get another look at rookie Paul Thompson and intend to play him starting either in the third or fourth quarters against Tennessee on Thursday night. After the game, the Packers will decide whether to bring back Martin, keep Thompson or go with just Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers.

"I wouldn't be surprised to see Ingle come back," McCarthy said, not specifying whether it would be to the 53-man roster or the practice squadHe also didn't rule out keeping two quarterbacks. "We feel that we have a pretty good grasp on where Ingle is in his development. I do not have those answers for Paul Thompson. That's why we're giving Paul this opportunity."

Game-time decision: There is a possibility that Favre will play against the Titans.

McCarthy is using the game mostly to look at his second- and third-stringers and was thinking about sitting Favre out. But he wants his quarterback to get more time with the offense to improve chemistry and is considering playing him.

"Our quarterback has new players that he doesn't have a lot of reps with," he said. "Those are all factored in. You still want to be smart and cautious."
Looking ahead: Most of the veterans began study of the Philadelphia Eagles this week in preparation of the season opener.

"I spent yesterday, exclusively in the morning, on Philadelphia," McCarthy said. "As a team, our structure is going through a game week to get our time clock back on an in-season schedule and we're working on Tennessee."

[Partial]

well that would be great! a competition between rivals for a kicker!

I doubt it happens, though. My guess is we get a 7th at best for him, or flat out release him.

[Bretsky]

It would be great to get anything for them; but most of the time teams know they are getting released.

Maybe we can get a project TE for one of them. Something is better than nothing I guess

[Harlan Huckleby]

Rayner ranks first in the NFL in average kickoff distance with a 71.6 mark.

Rayner might worth holding onto, if necessary, to make a trade.


"I wouldn't be surprised to see Ingle come back," McCarthy said

Yuk. Why bother? AT least Paul Thompson has the physical tools, you MIGHT take a one-year flyer on him.


But he wants his quarterback to get more time with the offense to improve chemistry and is considering playing him.

"Our quarterback has new players that he doesn't have a lot of reps with," he said.

Ya, but a lot of the offensive starters aren't gonna be suited up Thursday anyway.

[The Leaper]

I wouldn't be shocked if we get a 6th round pick for whoever we decide to part with. I think both guys are top 20 kickers in the NFL right now.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Yuk. Why bother? AT least Paul Thompson has the physical tools, you MIGHT take a one-year flyer on him.

Actually, Ingle has all of the physical tools. Probably as much or more than Thompson. I know it's easy to assume otherwise. Ingle was one of the fastest runners (at QB) and hardest throwers at last year's combine.


Combine in 2006

Ingle Martin - 59 MPH ball speed, 4.68 in the 40, 4.17 in 20 yard shuttle

Combine in 2007

Paul Thompson - 55 MPH ball speed, 4.64 in the 40, 4.11 in 20 yard shuttle

The problem for Ingle is that he doesn't have the accuracy or football intelligence needed to succeed. At least, he doesn't at this point.

[Carolina_Packer]

and to add to what Harvey said, it's not that Paul Thompson does, they perhaps just want to see what, if anything they have in the kid. Physical skills are wonderful and necessary, but so is a mental acumen for the position, and frankly balls and "it". We know Brett has "it". We think/hope Rodgers has "it". We have no idea if Martin or Thompson have "it" or the potential.

[pittstang5]

Concerning the kickers:

At this point I really don't care who makes the team as long as the Packers keep who they think will be the best player in years to come and they get something for the other one. I'd rather not see a draft pick for one, simply becuase it's going to be a later round pick. I'm thinking as high as 5th (being really optimistic here), but more likely a 6th or 7th. We all know TT loves trading down in the draft. IMO, having an extra 6th round pick added to the 3 or 4 TT is going to accumulate next year anyway is not going to help. I'd rather see TT trade one of the kickers for a player at a position that the Packers need, i.e. - RB or TE. Especially at RB considering all the injuries that have and continue to occur.

Either way - draft pick or a player for one of the kickers, I hope they get something. It'll be real disappointing to see one of these kickers go and get nothing.

[Scott Campbell]

It'll be real disappointing to see one of these kickers go and get nothing.


I'd be pretty surprised if they get anything. The stars appear to be aligning for such an occurance, but I can't remember the last time anyone got something in return for a kicker. How many times has something like this happened in the last 10 years?

[Patler]

It'll be real disappointing to see one of these kickers go and get nothing.


I'd be pretty surprised if they get anything. The stars appear to be aligning for such an occurance, but I can't remember the last time anyone got something in return for a kicker. How many times has something like this happened in the last 10 years?

How many times in the last 10 years has a team had two decent kickers at the same time? Most of the kickers that have been released aren't worth much of anything. This situation for the Packers is a bit unusual.

[Merlin]

and to add to what Harvey said, it's not that Paul Thompson does, they perhaps just want to see what, if anything they have in the kid. Physical skills are wonderful and necessary, but so is a mental acumen for the position, and frankly balls and "it". We know Brett has "it". We think/hope Rodgers has "it". We have no idea if Martin or Thompson have "it" or the potential.

I think this pretty much puts into words the point I have been struggling to get across the past three years. We should know by now if Rodgers "has it" or not. I spent the weekend watching other teams backup QB's and a lot of them seem to "have it" when they are on the field. Rodgers doesn't seem to "have it", he is tentative, quiet, doesn't read the defense and stares down his target. He doesn't look the part on the field outside of those issues. We certainly don't know about Thompson or Martin but of the two, I like what Thompson has shown in this area when he is on the field. Martin as I have stated before seemed to be going through the motions this season. He does have incredible arm strength but is lacking discipline. The thing I liked about that combination was that he reminded me of Favre at that age. He isn't the #2 and not even on the team so we may never know about the guy. Favre came in and was immediately surrounded with coaching, unlike #3 QB's. Thompson has pretty good zip on the ball and he seems to command attention out there.

[The Leaper]

I think this pretty much puts into words the point I have been struggling to get across the past three years. We should know by now if Rodgers "has it" or not.

How so? Favre plays every single snap during the season...and has more or less done so for 15+ seasons.

The only way you KNOW someone "has it" is to see them for a prolonged period of play in regular season action...unless they have HOF caliber talent, which very few QBs do.

In this preseason, I think you are ENTIRELY wrong in your assessment of Rodgers. He has not looked tentative or quiet at all. He has proven to be far more efficient than Favre, albeit he is operating mostly against backup caliber talent. Just about every scout that McGinn or anyone else has talked to regarding Rodgers have commented that he looks much more confident and aware of what is happening than he has in the past.

Rodgers also is working with one of the least talented and least experienced second units in the NFL. It is no secret that our FIRST TEAM offense lacks experienced playmakers...let alone our second team. The fact that other second string QBs may look better than Rodgers in preseason playing with vastly better talent is hardly evidence that Rodgers is no good.

There is little point in trying to argue one way or the other with Rodgers. We aren't going to find out definitively either way until Favre is out of the picture for awhile, either due to injury or retirement.

[Scott Campbell]

How many times in the last 10 years has a team had two decent kickers at the same time?


I have no idea. It looks like there may be no precedent.

But I think our ability to get something in return has very little to do with Ted's abilities as a trader. I think it has much more to do with other teams desperation for a kicker.

[Bossman641]

I spent the weekend watching other teams backup QB's and a lot of them seem to "have it" when they are on the field. Rodgers doesn't seem to "have it",

Just curious Merlin, but would you care to name who these backup QB's are? I'm just wondering because I want to know what exactly you're looking for and what you see in them that you don't see in Rodgers.

[cheesner]

I think this pretty much puts into words the point I have been struggling to get across the past three years. We should know by now if Rodgers "has it" or not. I spent the weekend watching other teams backup QB's and a lot of them seem to "have it" when they are on the field. Rodgers doesn't seem to "have it", he is tentative, quiet, doesn't read the defense and stares down his target. He doesn't look the part on the field outside of those issues. We certainly don't know about Thompson or Martin but of the two, I like what Thompson has shown in this area when he is on the field. Martin as I have stated before seemed to be going through the motions this season. He does have incredible arm strength but is lacking discipline. The thing I liked about that combination was that he reminded me of Favre at that age. He isn't the #2 and not even on the team so we may never know about the guy. Favre came in and was immediately surrounded with coaching, unlike #3 QB's. Thompson has pretty good zip on the ball and he seems to command attention out there.
Not sure how you are interpreting things - we must be watching the same games. I guess you are going to see what you want to see. As for me, I see a QB who is becoming very confident and in control of the offense. He searches the field, reads the defense, and adjusts on the fly. The only thing I think he needs to work on is his movement in the pocket and sensing pressure.

[Him8123]

Monday, August 27, 2007
BY MIKE GARAFOLO
Star-Ledger Staff
Tom Coughlin has many critics when it comes to his coaching style and on-field decisions. But there's no question he can spin a glaring weakness on his team with a little coachspeak.

He tried again yesterday when asked about the Giants' two kickers missing a combined three field goals Saturday night against the Jets.

"The one thing I will say as you try to build a case here against the kickers is the ball was struck well," Coughlin said on a conference call with reporters. "We were errant with the location and accuracy, but the ball was struck well."

All of you struggling golfers feel free to use that one next weekend -- courtesy of Coughlin -- when you crush a drive 225 yards into the thickest tree line on the course.

And then give yourself a free drop in the fairway.

Fact is, the Giants have a problem with their kicking situation. With Jay Feely in Miami after signing with the Dolphins in March, Lawrence Tynes and Josh Huston haven't done much to win a job.

Yes, Tynes' missed field goal from 43 yards was partly the result of a bad snap from Jay Alford and a hold by backup punter Cory Ohnesorge that left the laces inside instead of facing outward. But Tynes, who made a 40-yarder, missed his first attempt wide right from 40 yards. Huston also shanked his wide right from 42.

Combine Saturday's performance with only one touchback in 11 kickoffs combined this preseason, plus plenty of missed field goals during training camp in Albany and, well, Huston (and Tynes), we have a problem.

"I missed it. That's the bottom line. You've got to put it through the pipes," Huston, who made field goals of 50 and 30 yards last week against the Ravens, said of his miss on Saturday.

Said Tynes: "I thought I did what I could with what was given to me (on Saturday) and what's been given to us all camp. We don't get near the work that other guys get. But then again, I'm making excuses. We've got to make the kick."

Coughlin indicated the team won't bring in any veterans for a tryout this week because the team has only two days of practice before Thursday's preseason finale in New England.

But that doesn't mean the Giants won't scan the waiver wire, or that Jerry Reese won't make his third trade since being named general manager in January. (Reese acquired Tynes from the Chiefs in May for a conditional seventh-round pick, which the team won't have to send Kansas City's way if Tynes doesn't make the team.)

The Packers recently called the Giants to offer either one of their kickers, Mason Crosby or Dave Rayner, for a low draft pick, according to someone familiar with the discussions between the teams. The person, who requested anonymity because trade talks could pick up in the future, said the Giants told Green Bay they were comfortable with their kicking situation.

That was before Saturday night. The Giants could choose to wait for the Packers to cut Crosby or Rayner, as well as a few other teams to release kickers before the season.

Or maybe Tynes and Huston will quickly turn things around now that two-a-day practices are over and they can spend more time before and after practice on field goals.

"I certainly was disappointed because the nine points were the difference makers," Coughlin said of the Giants' 20-12 loss. "But hopefully we can improve upon that."

Notes: CB E.J. Underwood, a player Coughlin said the team wanted to "take a long, hard look at" on Saturday night, broke his jaw one year after a shoulder injury against the Jets ended his rookie season. Underwood, who suffered the injury on a punt return, will undergo surgery and will likely be placed on injured reserve....

LB Kawika Mitchell, who strained his groin on Saturday, "had some strength" yesterday, according to Coughlin. "Hopefully that's going to be something we can control," the coach added. With Mitchell likely out and LB Gerris Wilkinson recovering from a knee injury suffered early in camp, Reggie Torbor will be the starter on the weak side for now.

Mike Garafolo may be reached at mgarafolo@starledger.com

[Patler]

How many times in the last 10 years has a team had two decent kickers at the same time?


I have no idea. It looks like there may be no precedent.

But I think our ability to get something in return has very little to do with Ted's abilities as a trader. I think it has much more to do with other teams desperation for a kicker.

I agree. JSO had an article about a week ago or so that said the odd thing was that no team was really desperate for a kicker this year. Of course, one or two weeks can make a lot of difference.

[Spaulding]

How many times in the last 10 years has a team had two decent kickers at the same time?


I have no idea. It looks like there may be no precedent.

But I think our ability to get something in return has very little to do with Ted's abilities as a trader. I think it has much more to do with other teams desperation for a kicker.

I agree. JSO had an article about a week ago or so that said the odd thing was that no team was really desperate for a kicker this year. Of course, one or two weeks can make a lot of difference.

Patler, good to see you back. Haven't seen your posts in what seems quite a while and missed them. Thought that joke you initiated in April Fools of you becoming a writer for the JSO might actually have been true. Either way I'd rather read your insightful posts over most of the stuff written there.

[Spaulding]

The last time I remember two kickers of value heading into the final cutdowns in the NFL was when Doug Pelfrey was cut in favor of rookie Neil Rackers. I believe at the time that Pelfrey was one of the more accurate kickers in the NFL but coming off a bad season.

[Patler]

Thanks MrBojangles. I've been around, but not posting much. I've been more active in the Brewer thread than here. I've said all I have to say about TT and what he did or didn't do with the select six players or so and/or the salary cap the last three years. Since every thread eventually migrates to these, I've just quit reading most of them when they do. Consequently, I've posted infrequently.

[CaliforniaCheez]

I don't think the packers can get a draft pick.

They likely will get a player. More likely a green as grass benchwarmer who was going to be cut by his team. I doubt Ted goes for some breaking down vet.

Look for an RB or third QB or possibly a DT to replace the one that will be traded.

[MadScientist]

Cincy just lost their kicker due to a hip injury, so there is another possibole trade partner.

The packers would have to get a draft pick to avoid getting a convict.