RUNNING INTO TROUBLE--JS

[Bretsky]

Running into trouble
Lack of experienced backs is troubling
By GREG A. BEDARD
gbedard@journalsentinel.com
Posted: Sept. 2, 2007

Green Bay - It only took running back Ryan Grant a few hours Sunday to make one very obvious yet important observation about his new team:

The Packers are hurting at running back after learning that Noah Herron is out for the season. Herron suffered a knee injury at Tennessee Thursday.
"This is definitely the youngest backfield I've ever been in," he said.

That's one way to say it. Another would be that the Packers, especially after the team decided to end the season of third-down back Noah Herron by placing him on injured reserve, appear headed into the season opener against the Philadelphia Eagles woefully devoid of experience at the position.

"It is what it is," said general manager Ted Thompson, the man responsible for crafting the Packers' roster. "You just have to keep going, and you try to pick the best guys for your team, where you are at that particular time. So that's kind of where we are. But at the end of the day, we feel pretty good about this group."

In an effort to gain some help and experience, Grant was acquired in a trade Saturday from the New York Giants. The Packers got some more when they were awarded fullback John Kuhn off waivers from the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Thompson said he called around to see what other halfbacks might be available via trade but found the market tight.

And the Packers certainly look as if they need all the help Thompson could have found.

Vernand Morency, who was expected to begin the season as the starter before injuring his knee in the first practice of training camp, did return to practice but has missed over a month and likely will need time to raise his level of conditioning.

That leaves two rookies, Brandon Jackson and DeShawn Wynn, and a newcomer in Grant as the only healthy halfbacks for the game against the Eagles - and perhaps beyond.

Jackson missed the final exhibition game against the Tennessee Titans because of a concussion but has been cleared to practice. Wynn said he expected Jackson, who started the first three exhibition games, to start against the Eagles.

"Right now I'd say that," Wynn said. "You never know how things are going to pan out from here to Sunday. But I expect him to definitely get most of the playing time come Sunday. I don't see why not, even though he had the concussion. It's not really holding him back. He's had a good camp."

Jackson carried 40 times in the exhibition season for 131 yards, which gave him a pedestrian 3.3-yard per-carry average.

Herron led the running backs with a 3.4 average. Last season he had a 20-carry, 106-yard performance against the St. Louis Rams when starter Ahman Green was inactive, and Morency struggled to pick up the slack.

Herron likely would have been an option to start against the Eagles if not for the knee injury he suffered against the Titans. The Packers and Herron first thought the injury was minor. But it was later learned he would need arthroscopic surgery to repair the damage and would be out at least until the Packer's Oct. 21 bye week. That's when the Packers decided to end Herron's season.

"It's heartbreaking to Noah; it's heartbreaking to us to have to make this transaction," Thompson said. "But we had to do it. We didn't think there was any way we'd get him back before the bye, and we just didn't have the luxury of being able to do that."

McCarthy said the loss of Herron definitely hurts.

"He was definitely going to be a contributor this year," McCarthy said.

For the short term, McCarthy indicated Morency, if cleared, would fill Herron's role as the third-down back. It's the same job Morency did last year and will give him an opportunity to round himself into form slowly.

Whoever gets called upon to line up next to quarterback Brett Favre in the shotgun will be asked often to protect him by picking up the blitz. The Eagles are one of the NFL's top teams at disguising their blitzes, so it might be too much to ask of a rookie like Jackson or Wynn.

Grant said it's something he did with the Giants, but the Packers' offense is much different.

"It is kind of night and day from what I ran in New York, to be honest with you," Grant said.

However, Grant has some familiarity with the West Coast offense after playing in it under coach Tyrone Willingham at Notre Dame.

"It's not totally foreign to me. It's something I'm accustomed to," Grant said. "The terms might be a little different, but I understand the scheme and what we're trying to accomplish."

For now at least, the Packers are attempting to enter the season with four halfbacks that have a combined 96 carries and two NFL starts - all by Morency. And at fullback, Kuhn's six games played make him a veteran compared to rookie starter Korey Hall.

It's no wonder then that when Thompson was asked how many healthy running backs the Packers will have against the Eagles, he had to pause and think about it.

"We've had so many changes, I've got to think this through . . . ," Thompson said.

At this point, the Packers might just be happy to make it through the opener without any more.

Tom Silverstein of the Journal Sentinel staff contributed to this report.

[Packnut]

It's pretty sad to be in this position with the 2nd most important spot on offense. But hey, we got 13 mill in cap space so Teddy did his job. :lol:

[Scott Campbell]

Per Clayton at ESPN:

The Packers were active in the fullback market. They put in claims for John Kuhn of the Steelers, Lousaka Polite of the Cowboys and Derek Schouman of the Bills. From those three, the Packers chose Kuhn.

[Bretsky]

Per Clayton at ESPN:

The Packers were active in the fullback market. They put in claims for John Kuhn of the Steelers, Lousaka Polite of the Cowboys and Derek Schouman of the Bills. From those three, the Packers chose Kuhn.


Good that TT is doing something to add new players

[Scott Campbell]

Per Clayton at ESPN:

The Packers were active in the fullback market. They put in claims for John Kuhn of the Steelers, Lousaka Polite of the Cowboys and Derek Schouman of the Bills. From those three, the Packers chose Kuhn.


Good that TT is doing something to add new players


I think it's fine to be adding to the bottom of your roster at this time of year. Looking for developmental type guys is perfectly acceptable. But if were looking for somebody to step in and start? Ouch.

[Bretsky]

Per Clayton at ESPN:

The Packers were active in the fullback market. They put in claims for John Kuhn of the Steelers, Lousaka Polite of the Cowboys and Derek Schouman of the Bills. From those three, the Packers chose Kuhn.


Good that TT is doing something to add new players


I think it's fine to be adding to the bottom of your roster at this time of year. Looking for developmental type guys is perfectly acceptable. But if were looking for somebody to step in and start? Ouch.


Scott, I had viewed you as being very pro TT; were my perceptions wrong ?

I'd agree that there is no way we should be looking for immediate contributors from other teams cuts. But that is what we did at FB as well.

[Deputy Nutz]

Bretsky I don't know why you either got to be pro TT or anti-TT, I don't see why a line has to be drawn by some.

To me, TT is not making a significant addition to the roster with Grant and Kuhn. They are back up players brought in to fill depth. That is what the expectation is at this time of the year.

They still have Jackson who this team has spent a second round pick on, and he looked good in preseason. I am still behind Jackson as the man to do the job until he gives me reason not to think he can be the answer at running back, but he has picked up the running scheme well, and makes good reads with good cuts.

The offensive line is going to have to step it up for these young guys and do their job. Clifton needs to be motivated in the run game and Spitz and Colledge need to improve.

The offensive line is what has me nervous right now. I saw great improvement in them from the beginning of 2006 to the end of the season, but I don't think they have started where they have left off.

[retailguy]

Bretsky I don't know why you either got to be pro TT or anti-TT, I don't see why a line has to be drawn by some.

To me, TT is not making a significant addition to the roster with Grant and Kuhn. They are back up players brought in to fill depth. That is what the expectation is at this time of the year.

They still have Jackson who this team has spent a second round pick on, and he looked good in preseason. I am still behind Jackson as the man to do the job until he gives me reason not to think he can be the answer at running back, but he has picked up the running scheme well, and makes good reads with good cuts.

The offensive line is going to have to step it up for these young guys and do their job. Clifton needs to be motivated in the run game and Spitz and Colledge need to improve.

The offensive line is what has me nervous right now. I saw great improvement in them from the beginning of 2006 to the end of the season, but I don't think they have started where they have left off.


Nutz,

I agree, sort of... Not sure they played all that well at the end of the season, I think there were other factors that perhaps made them look better than they were, but, they don't look that good in run blocking so far. Pass blocking has looked suprisingly OK, but run blocking has been abysmal.

[Bretsky]

Bretsky I don't know why you either got to be pro TT or anti-TT, I don't see why a line has to be drawn by some.

To me, TT is not making a significant addition to the roster with Grant and Kuhn. They are back up players brought in to fill depth. That is what the expectation is at this time of the year.

They still have Jackson who this team has spent a second round pick on, and he looked good in preseason. I am still behind Jackson as the man to do the job until he gives me reason not to think he can be the answer at running back, but he has picked up the running scheme well, and makes good reads with good cuts.

The offensive line is going to have to step it up for these young guys and do their job. Clifton needs to be motivated in the run game and Spitz and Colledge need to improve.

The offensive line is what has me nervous right now. I saw great improvement in them from the beginning of 2006 to the end of the season, but I don't think they have started where they have left off.

To be honest, Nutz, I'd also consider myself to be in the middle. Just made that comment because certain people are on the extremities and that was the perception I was asking about

[Scott Campbell]

Scott, I had viewed you as being very pro TT; were my perceptions wrong ?


Nutz answered your question very well. I don't consider myself to be overly pro TT. I hope he does well because that will benefit the Packers. I understand and endorse many of his strategies. I question some of the execuation. I won't blindly support a mistake just because he authored it. I feel fans typically don't have enough information to make informed decisions. We only see results, not the efforts or failed efforts. So I believe in giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. I did the same for Sherman, until it became painfully obvious that he just wasn't a very good GM.

I'm strongly against the inflamatory anti-TT rhetoric that assumes his moves are due to stupidity, cheapness, or him being evil. I think that stuff is just ridiculous and takes away from the credibility of the forum. The "I Hate Ted" crowd might be a minority, but it's a very vocal minority that has a tendency to overwhelm the tone of the board. And while I don't agree with everything Nick says, his vocal faith in Thompson does serve to balance things out a bit.

I remember Christl wrote a piece basically endorsing TT's strategy. But he also made another interesting observation. It said something along the lines of - you can do everything right, but you still have to be lucky in order to get your difference makers. I agree with that. You have to use the right methodology, and you have to be lucky.

[Scott Campbell]

To be honest, Nutz, I'd also consider myself to be in the middle.


My perception of where you're at is that you're anti-TT, but not anything like the extremists. You distance yourself from the crazy rhetoric, and don't seem to have a personal stake in him failing. I think you were so dissapointed by free agency this year, that you're ready to move in another direction, and will wait patiently for Ted to give you any additional reasons to become more vocal. I get the sense that an ugly loss could prompt you to join their lynch mob. I think it will take a TON of positive evidence for you to turn around on him and become a supporter.

But that's just my perception, not necessarily a reality.

[RashanGary]

Holy shit, SC. I think you just summarized about 9 months of debate in two f-ing posts :)

Way to go!! :wow: :clap: :wow:

[RashanGary]

And for the record, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with me too. I try to balance the anti TT rhetoric out and sometimes I'll exaggerate just to get things back to the middle where they really belong. I used to do that with guys who got beat up here too. I don't like mobs, they are my pet peeve for some reason.

Beleive it or not, I'm a believer in how he goes about things but I too am willing and ready to jump ship if he doesn't perform this year and going into next year. I just don't say it because I don't want to have my words used in sarcastic rhetoric for the mob.

[falco]

Lets be frank though; if it wasn't for a glut of injuries this wouldn't be as bad as it is. We've had the 3 RBs who most likely would have been on the roster (Jackson, Morency, Herron) all go down at some point in the preseason. You can put all of this on Thompson.

Now if you feel that those 3 wouldn't have cut it anyway, then feel free to point the finger.

[Scott Campbell]

Beleive it or not, I'm a believer in how he goes about things but I too am willing and ready to jump ship if he doesn't perform this year and going into next year.


I've thought about you in that situation. I was concerned that you'd be so bitter if Thompson didn't make it, that you couldn't bring yourself to support a new guy if that becomes necessary. So it was good to read this.

I've thought about Thompson's tenure in phases.

Phase 1: Stop the bleeding. He did a great job here.

Phase 2: Rebuild the core. I see tremendous progress here, and it looks very promising.

Phase 3: Put them over the top. This is where you've plugged all your glaring holes, and found your playmakers. And the jury is still out, so I guess we'll see.

There are different skills and tactics required for each phase. So just because he appears to have done well with the first two, it doens't necessarily mean that he's got what it takes to finish the job.

[MJZiggy]

Scott, I had viewed you as being very pro TT; were my perceptions wrong ?


Nutz answered your question very well. I don't consider myself to be overly pro TT. I hope he does well because that will benefit the Packers. I understand and endorse many of his strategies. I question some of the execuation. I won't blindly support a mistake just because he authored it. I feel fans typically don't have enough information to make informed decisions. We only see results, not the efforts or failed efforts. So I believe in giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. I did the same for Sherman, until it became painfully obvious that he just wasn't a very good GM.

I'm strongly against the inflamatory anti-TT rhetoric that assumes his moves are due to stupidity, cheapness, or him being evil. I think that stuff is just ridiculous and takes away from the credibility of the forum. The "I Hate Ted" crowd might be a minority, but it's a very vocal minority that has a tendency to overwhelm the tone of the board. And while I don't agree with everything Nick says, his vocal faith in Thompson does serve to balance things out a bit.

I remember Christl wrote a piece basically endorsing TT's strategy. But he also made another interesting observation. It said something along the lines of - you can do everything right, but you still have to be lucky in order to get your difference makers. I agree with that. You have to use the right methodology, and you have to be lucky.

QFT I love this post. Very well said and sums up what I've been feeling for quite some time

[HarveyWallbangers]

Agreed. Especially this:


I'm strongly against the inflamatory anti-TT rhetoric that assumes his moves are due to stupidity, cheapness, or him being evil. I think that stuff is just ridiculous and takes away from the credibility of the forum. The "I Hate Ted" crowd might be a minority, but it's a very vocal minority that has a tendency to overwhelm the tone of the board. And while I don't agree with everything Nick says, his vocal faith in Thompson does serve to balance things out a bit.

I'd probably rip Thompson a lot more than I do, but the "I Hate Ted" crowd is so loud and persistent that I find myself sticking up for the guy more than I would otherwise.

[vince]

Scott, I had viewed you as being very pro TT; were my perceptions wrong ?


Nutz answered your question very well. I don't consider myself to be overly pro TT. I hope he does well because that will benefit the Packers. I understand and endorse many of his strategies. I question some of the execuation. I won't blindly support a mistake just because he authored it. I feel fans typically don't have enough information to make informed decisions. We only see results, not the efforts or failed efforts. So I believe in giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. I did the same for Sherman, until it became painfully obvious that he just wasn't a very good GM.

I'm strongly against the inflamatory anti-TT rhetoric that assumes his moves are due to stupidity, cheapness, or him being evil. I think that stuff is just ridiculous and takes away from the credibility of the forum. The "I Hate Ted" crowd might be a minority, but it's a very vocal minority that has a tendency to overwhelm the tone of the board. And while I don't agree with everything Nick says, his vocal faith in Thompson does serve to balance things out a bit.

I remember Christl wrote a piece basically endorsing TT's strategy. But he also made another interesting observation. It said something along the lines of - you can do everything right, but you still have to be lucky in order to get your difference makers. I agree with that. You have to use the right methodology, and you have to be lucky.
Well said, Scott. I don't think there's a whole lot of luck involved though, but that's another topic.

[Scott Campbell]

Well said, Scott. I don't think there's a whole lot of luck involved though, but that's another topic.


I think you can create additional opportunities to be lucky. So there's a lot of skill involved in the big picture. But on indivicual transactions when you hit on a Kampman, and get a top 10 pick in the 5th round - that's pretty lucky.

[Bretsky]

And for the record, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with me too. I try to balance the anti TT rhetoric out and sometimes I'll exaggerate just to get things back to the middle where they really belong. I used to do that with guys who got beat up here too. I don't like mobs, they are my pet peeve for some reason.

Beleive it or not, I'm a believer in how he goes about things but I too am willing and ready to jump ship if he doesn't perform this year and going into next year. I just don't say it because I don't want to have my words used in sarcastic rhetoric for the mob.


Gosh, and here I thought the several extremists were needed just to balance your intensity out :wink:

[Bretsky]

To be honest, Nutz, I'd also consider myself to be in the middle.


My perception of where you're at is that you're anti-TT, but not anything like the extremists. You distance yourself from the crazy rhetoric, and don't seem to have a personal stake in him failing. I think you were so dissapointed by free agency this year, that you're ready to move in another direction, and will wait patiently for Ted to give you any additional reasons to become more vocal. I get the sense that an ugly loss could prompt you to join their lynch mob. I think it will take a TON of positive evidence for you to turn around on him and become a supporter.

But that's just my perception, not necessarily a reality.


I think you've got me pegged pretty well; I don't think I'd turn on him with one ugly loss.......but I'd take a strong step that route if he does not show measured improvement....via the record.... I say a strong step; I'm still a ways away from the extremist stance. He drafts well, I think, and that is a good portion of being a good GM.

I'd also agree it'll take a lot of positive evidence to get me back into the Kool Aide.

[Bretsky]

Lets be frank though; if it wasn't for a glut of injuries this wouldn't be as bad as it is. We've had the 3 RBs who most likely would have been on the roster (Jackson, Morency, Herron) all go down at some point in the preseason. You can put all of this on Thompson.

Now if you feel that those 3 wouldn't have cut it anyway, then feel free to point the finger.


Where to I point ? LOL

Jackson is the only one I have excitement about. So the guy I have hopes for is there.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Gosh, and here I thought the several extremists were needed just to balance your intensity out :wink:

To me, it seemed JH missed on some guys (Mike Hawkins), but wasn't overly optimistic until the board became overrun by vocal anti-TT folks. Suddenly, he's become the one balancing force out there. All by himself.
:D

[Bretsky]

Gosh, and here I thought the several extremists were needed just to balance your intensity out :wink:

To me, it seemed JH missed on some guys (Mike Hawkins), but wasn't overly optimistic until the board became overrun by vocal anti-TT folks. Suddenly, he's become the one balancing force out there. All by himself.
:D


Shadow and Vince do an awfully good job with evidence supporting him. And Ziggy pops in as well.