Coaching Staff - My biggest "?" heading into 2007

[Patler]

No, not the runningbacks.
No, not the tight ends.
No, not the development of the O-line.
No, not the health and/or maturity of the wide receivers.
No, not the safeties.
No, not depth at linebacker.
No, not the overall youth of the roster.

Its not even the abilities of Ted Thompson.

My biggest overall concern entering this season, the biggest question I have is still the coaching staff, from top to bottom. This is why:

Offensive staff
- I will give them credit for developing protection schemes last year that enabled Favre to remain upright on most passing plays. However, I was never impressed with the overall passing game and the running game was woefully inadequate.
- They were never able to come up with anything acceptable within the red zone.
- I can't say that I remember a game plan that really seemed to stand out against any opponent's defense.
- I never saw halftime adjustments that accomplished anything.
- We have an inexperienced head coach, an inexperienced offensive coordinator and an inexperienced line coach (from the aspect of being the one in charge). It seems teaching the zone blocking philosophy has been more of a task than it should have been. Other teams with no-name linemen have run it successfully.
- Just a lot of question marks, mostly because many have no past experiences similar to the responsibilities they have now or received a year ago. They proved nothing last year.

Defensive staff
- Who is in charge? Is it the defensive coordinator or the assistant head coach? Does the defensive coordinator have someone looking over his shoulder?
- In spite of the strong finish, did anyone feel comfortable with the abilities of the coordinator as a coordinator? Is there any reason to feel better about it at the start of this season?
- Defensive backfield coaches, need I say more? Schottenheimer has had a history of being unsuccessful in previous coaching stints. At least at the beginning of last year the backfield looked eerily similar to when Schottenheimer was in Green Bay before, yet except for Harris all of the players were different. We complained a lot about Mark Roman, who was considered at least a decent player before he came to Green Bay, and was thought to be a good pickup. He was absolutely awful under Schottenheimer, but not nearly as bad the following season when Schottenheimer was gone. He remains a starter at safety for San Francisco now that he left Green Bay. Marquand Manual was good enough to start in a Super Bowl and was looked at as a good pickup when signed by the Packers by most evaluators. Under Schottenheimer he looked very Roman-like. Collins, for the most part, seemed to regress in his second season under Schottenheimer. Harris and Woodson are strong enough veterans to excel in spite of Schottenheimer. The rest of the d-backs are clearly of ages and experience levels requiring strong coaching input. Will they get it?


I think this coaching staff can prove itself. So far it has not. That is why they remain the biggest question mark in my mind. If the coaching staff proves itself, the problems we see at running back and tight end, and the inexperience in the O-line and at wide receiver can be mitigated substantially. If the coaching staff is inadequate, those same problems and others will be magnified.

[HarveyWallbangers]

-However, I was never impressed with the overall passing game and the running game was woefully inadequate.

Considering that they had one good, healthy WR with three first year starters on the interior OL with some decent TEs that had miserable years, I think the game planning was okay. The fact that Ahman averaged 4.0 yards/carry and Morency averaged 4.5 yards/carry shows that they had success in game planning.


-They were never able to come up with anything acceptable within the red zone.

Agreed.


-I can't say that I remember a game plan that really seemed to stand out against any opponent's defense.
- I never saw halftime adjustments that accomplished anything.

I don't think these are entirely accurate. It's not like their offense was woeful. I'm sure they can improve, but to say they didn't game plan well or make halftime adjustments in any game that you saw is going a tad overboard.


- We have an inexperienced head coach, an inexperienced offensive coordinator and an inexperienced line coach (from the aspect of being the one in charge). It seems teaching the zone blocking philosophy has been more of a task than it should have been. Other teams with no-name linemen have run it successfully.

Agree on the inexperience comment--except McCarthy is the man running the offense and he's had extensive experience doing so. Not sure how long it took other teams to adjust to the zone blocking scheme. Until they had some guys that fit the system and got experience, I would imagine they struggled.


- Who is in charge? Is it the defensive coordinator or the assistant head coach? Does the defensive coordinator have someone looking over his shoulder?

From all accounts, Sanders is still running the defense. Not sure it matters if he has "somebody looking over his shoulder". If that somebody is good, that could be a good thing.


- In spite of the strong finish, did anyone feel comfortable with the abilities of the coordinator as a coordinator? Is there any reason to feel better about it at the start of this season?

Agreed.


- Defensive backfield coaches, need I say more?

No, you don't.

[Cheesehead Craig]

My biggest question mark is how many times will I need to go to the Park Tavern with Harvey and superfan?

[Harlan Huckleby]

get a room, Patler & HarveyWallbanger

[Zool]

get a room, Patler & HarveyWallbanger

Why you have your hidden cams setup?

[Harlan Huckleby]

get a room, Patler & HarveyWallbanger

Why you have your hidden cams setup?


Uhhh, they'd probably just sit on the bed, tap their feet on the floor to signal their readiness to get started, then bring out their Pro Football Stat books for an all night session of exchanging fun facts.

Not much to see.

[Zool]

get a room, Patler & HarveyWallbanger

Why you have your hidden cams setup?


Uhhh, they'd probably just sit on the bed, tap their feet on the floor to signal their readiness to get started, then bring out their Pro Football Stat books for an all night session of exchanging fun facts.

Not much to see.

Would the cops bust that up?

[Patler]

-I can't say that I remember a game plan that really seemed to stand out against any opponent's defense.
- I never saw halftime adjustments that accomplished anything.

I don't think these are entirely accurate. It's not like their offense was woeful. I'm sure they can improve, but to say they didn't game plan well or make halftime adjustments in any game that you saw is going a tad overboard.



I don't think it is overboard at all, especially since I complained about both through out the season last year. Too often against quality opponents they looked totally inept on offense right from the start, and never changes. The Packers outscored opponents in the 2nd half only 6 times last year:

Lions 14-10
Miami 28-14
Cardinals 10-7
Vikings 6-3
Jets 10-7
Lions 7-6.

I'll give you Miami, but I sure don't see anything else that looks like 2nd half adjustments.

[Patler]

- Who is in charge? Is it the defensive coordinator or the assistant head coach? Does the defensive coordinator have someone looking over his shoulder?

From all accounts, Sanders is still running the defense. Not sure it matters if he has "somebody looking over his shoulder". If that somebody is good, that could be a good thing.


Have you ever worked in, or seen a department in which the department head has a subordinate who has direct access to the ultimate boss? Generally it is not a real good thing, UNLESS the department head is strong, accomplished and well accepted individual.

With all the questions raised last year about Sanders abilities as a coordinator, this arrangement becomes a big question mark in my mind. I'm not saying it is necessarily bad, but it is one of the reasons that the overall coaching staff is a big question mark in my mind. Did McCarthy feel like he needed someone watching over Sanders, more closely than he could without being obvious about it?

Again, questions in my mind.

[4and12to12and4]

I agree with a lot of what you are concerned with as far as the coaches. I don't know what to think about Schottenheimer. If he's so horrible, and doesn't have good schematics for the players to follow, it would seem that Sanders would know that, and/or even MM himself. So, then, why would they have kept him on? His job may have been saved due to the four-game winning streak, where our defense looked top five (against very mediocre to bad offenses).

What I do like ever since I have seen MM in the Green and Gold, is that he seems like a guy that has no problem putting players in place ( including Favre). Remember how we used to get all over Shermy for letting Favre pull some shitty interception out of his ass, and MS would just ignore him and let him go sit on the bench? MM has since day one made Favre and the rest of the team accountable for EVERY bad play, and wants an answer from them as to why they did what they did. Consequence. So, if he treats his players that way, I'm sure his coaches are getting their fair share of lectures and accountability. So, if MM OR Sanders has ANY knowledge of defensive schemes, etc., I would think that Schotty would be outta here by now.
One thing that we must remember, the defense last year, got the short end of the stick many, many games. It's not like they went out there and got ran over from play one every game. When you're offense can't sustain a drive after you've stopped the other team 2 and 3 times in a row, eventually the defense will lose the war. We put them out there way too much last year because of our inept offense. However, it just so happened that as the running game and offensive line started getting better, and we started sustaining drives, our defensive numbers suddenly looked good. It all goes hand in hand, and last year, we got burned on a lot of third downs, but usually after having stopped the opposition a couple of times, and the offense failing us over and over again.
The key to success this year WILL be our running game, and sustaining drives to keep the defense OFF THE FIELD. That will help their numbers.
Look at the Bears. Everybody said that when Harris and Brown went down, their rankings started plummeting, but remember, those first games where their defense was ranked real high, they also had their offense going, Grossman looked like player of the year. As their offense started sputtering, suddenly their defense seemed human. Especially their run defense. I know losing a guy like Harris is part of it, but they were on the field a lot more in the second part of the season, because of the offense.

Keep the ball and score, and you don't have to worry about our DB's or their coaches, they'll be sitting on the bench watching along with us.

[MadtownPacker]

Schottenheimer has had a history of being unsuccessful in previous coaching stints. At least at the beginning of last year the backfield looked eerily similar to when Schottenheimer was in Green Bay before, yet except for Harris all of the players were different.Man why you gotta say scary things like that. You make me get a sick feeling and have visions of opposing offenses scoring on 50+ yard plays. :doh:

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't think it is overboard at all, especially since I complained about both through out the season last year. Too often against quality opponents they looked totally inept on offense right from the start, and never changes. The Packers outscored opponents in the 2nd half only 6 times last year:

Lions 14-10
Miami 28-14
Cardinals 10-7
Vikings 6-3
Jets 10-7
Lions 7-6.

I'll give you Miami, but I sure don't see anything else that looks like 2nd half adjustments.

Using the stats to your advantage. This isn't conclusive evidence to me that the coaches didn't make any adjustments. Maybe defensively, but I already agreed with you there. However, there were games where they couldn't run the ball in the first half and they adjusted in the second half. There were games where they tried some things in the first half in the passing game. It wasn't working, and they went to something else. We'll see. Were they great at it? Probably not. They didn't have great personnel, they ran a new running scheme, young players, had to max protect a lot. They didn't have a lot of options. But, it's not like they didn't make any adjustments in any game.

[Patler]

Man why you gotta say scary things like that. You make me get a sick feeling and have visions of opposing offenses scoring on 50+ yard plays. :doh:

You mean like in 2004 and 2006?

49, 26, 35, 37, 42, 45, 30, 43, 40, 52, 75 - yardage on some of the TD passes thrown against Green Bay in 2006.

[MJZiggy]

Man why you gotta say scary things like that. You make me get a sick feeling and have visions of opposing offenses scoring on 50+ yard plays. :doh:

You mean like in 2004 and 2006?

49, 26, 35, 37, 42, 45, 30, 43, 40, 52, 75 - yardage on some of the TD passes thrown against Green Bay in 2006.

I had successfully blocked that trauma from my memory. Thanks for reminding me. :lol: :lol: :shock: :cry:

[Patler]

I don't think it is overboard at all, especially since I complained about both through out the season last year. Too often against quality opponents they looked totally inept on offense right from the start, and never changes. The Packers outscored opponents in the 2nd half only 6 times last year:

Lions 14-10
Miami 28-14
Cardinals 10-7
Vikings 6-3
Jets 10-7
Lions 7-6.

I'll give you Miami, but I sure don't see anything else that looks like 2nd half adjustments.

Using the stats to your advantage. This isn't conclusive evidence to me that the coaches didn't make any adjustments. Maybe defensively, but I already agreed with you there. However, there were games where they couldn't run the ball in the first half and they adjusted in the second half. There were games where they tried some things in the first half in the passing game. It wasn't working, and they went to something else. We'll see. Were they great at it? Probably not. They didn't have great personnel, they ran a new running scheme, young players, had to max protect a lot. They didn't have a lot of options. But, it's not like they didn't make any adjustments in any game.

I didn't say they didn't make adjustments, I said they didn't make adjustments that accomplished anything. Ultimately, the name of the game on offense is to score. I did not see the Packers make half time changes that accomplished that in 2006. I complained about it last year, and it will remain a question mark for me until they show otherwise.

[Patler]

Man why you gotta say scary things like that. You make me get a sick feeling and have visions of opposing offenses scoring on 50+ yard plays. :doh:

You mean like in 2004 and 2006?

49, 26, 35, 37, 42, 45, 30, 43, 40, 52, 75 - yardage on some of the TD passes thrown against Green Bay in 2006.

I had successfully blocked that trauma from my memory. Thanks for reminding me. :lol: :lol: :shock: :cry:

I try to help whenever I can! :D

[Patler]

Using the stats to your advantage. This isn't conclusive evidence to me that the coaches didn't make any adjustments. Maybe defensively, but I already agreed with you there. However, there were games where they couldn't run the ball in the first half and they adjusted in the second half. There were games where they tried some things in the first half in the passing game. It wasn't working, and they went to something else. We'll see. Were they great at it? Probably not. They didn't have great personnel, they ran a new running scheme, young players, had to max protect a lot. They didn't have a lot of options. But, it's not like they didn't make any adjustments in any game.

I also want to emphasize, I'm not trying to PROVE the staff is bad. The whole point of this thread is that to me they remain a big question mark after one season. They certainly did not show the ability to adjust at halftime and outscore opponents in the second half. It could be just the opposite. McCarthy was a new coach, an unknown entity as a head coach to the opponents. In 10 of 16 games the other team outscored Green Bay in the second half. That could (I'm not saying it's certain) show that once the other coaches saw what to expect from McCarthy they were able to out coach him.

I remember being frustrated in many games that nothing looked different in the second half than in the first. As a result the ability of this staff to adjust at halftime remains a big question mark in my mind. They might prove themselves to be very good at it when they have a better team. On the other hand, they may not. At this point, I don't know and they remain a question in that regard.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I remember being frustrated in many games that nothing looked different in the second half than in the first.

I think they were extremely limited. What were they going to do? Continue to run the ball when they couldn't. Go away from max protect and get Favre beat up. I think the defensive staff has a lot to prove. I think the offensive game planning was fine for the personnel. McCarthy was limited in the adjustments he could make during the game. Hopefully, improvement in the OL, a bounce back year from the TEs, a healthy Greg Jennings, and an emerging James Jones will allow them to have more options.

[Scott Campbell]

Ask yourself this - are we better off now than when we didn't go for it against Philly on 4th and 1? Are we better off now when McCarthy reaches for the little red flag?

I guess I expect a young head coach and his staff to make a big jump from year 1 to year 2. I haven't seen anything yet to make me think that McCarthy can't grow into becoming a fine head coach. I'm definitely more concerned with our running game.

[4and12to12and4]

How could any adjustments work offensively when ten guys were blocking for Brett, and he had no one left to throw it to!!!! :wink:

[Scott Campbell]

get a room, Patler & HarveyWallbanger

Why you have your hidden cams setup?


Uhhh, they'd probably just sit on the bed, tap their feet on the floor to signal their readiness to get started, then bring out their Pro Football Stat books for an all night session of exchanging fun facts.

Not much to see.


I think these are some thoughful discussion points, and don't understand why you want to threadcrap here.

[Patler]

I remember being frustrated in many games that nothing looked different in the second half than in the first.

I think they were extremely limited. What were they going to do? Continue to run the ball when they couldn't. Go away from max protect and get Favre beat up. I think the defensive staff has a lot to prove. I think the offensive game planning was fine for the personnel. McCarthy was limited in the adjustments he could make during the game. Hopefully, improvement in the OL, a bounce back year from the TEs, a healthy Greg Jennings, and an emerging James Jones will allow them to have more options.

That could very well be the case. I certainly hope it is. I guess I would have fewer doubts if my impression of McCarthy was that he was a dynamite O.C. before becoming the Packers head coach. I do not have that impression. He has experience as an OC, but I don't think it showed him to be a top notch coordinator. Again, he may have been a victim of the circumstances he was in. I just don't know.

After all, Schottenheimer has loads of experience as a DB coach, and I don't have a lot of confidence in that. :D :D :D

[MJZiggy]

That could very well be the case. I certainly hope it is. I guess I would have fewer doubts if my impression of McCarthy was that he was a dynamite O.C. before becoming the Packers head coach. I do not have that impression. He has experience as an OC, but I don't think it showed him to be a top notch coordinator. Again, he may have been a victim of the circumstances he was in. I just don't know.

After all, Schottenheimer has loads of experience as a DB coach, and I don't have a lot of confidence in that. :D :D :D

I thought he was decent in NO. You don't think he did a good job down there?

[Patler]

That could very well be the case. I certainly hope it is. I guess I would have fewer doubts if my impression of McCarthy was that he was a dynamite O.C. before becoming the Packers head coach. I do not have that impression. He has experience as an OC, but I don't think it showed him to be a top notch coordinator. Again, he may have been a victim of the circumstances he was in. I just don't know.

After all, Schottenheimer has loads of experience as a DB coach, and I don't have a lot of confidence in that. :D :D :D

I thought he was decent in NO. You don't think he did a good job down there?

My response that you quoted was me drifting from my own point!:D

The success of this staff will depend on each member fulfilling their obligations within the staff. McCarthy is not the offense of coordinator. He is the head coach. If this offense will be successful because of McCarthy's abilities as an OC, maybe the success he experienced as an OC were because of the head coaches he served under. If McCarthy is a great OC, but a bad HC, this staff will fail.

One of the issues I had with the entire staff last season was that most were "stepping up" a notch. That's not necessarily bad, but it certainly does not provide a track record on which to predict success. The entire staff was inexperienced at the jobs they were being asked to perform. Not enough was accomplished last year to reach conclusions about their abilities in their new levels of responsibility, and now this year we again have more coaches "stepping up" to higher levels of responsibility, with Philbin as the new OC and Campen responsible for the O-line.

I'm not predicting failure, I'm merely expressing my uncertainty about the overall ability of the staff. They remain a question in my mind.

[MJZiggy]

They are good questions. Thankfully, we start getting the answers this week!! Hopefully either they're up to the task or will be replaced by people who are...

I wonder though, how come the fan perception of Schottenheimer is so bad, yet he is continually employed and was staunchly defended last season...I don't get the discrepancy. Is there something we don't see as fans? Why keep him if he's so bad or conversely why do we think he's so bad if he's worth keeping?

[Patler]

Ask yourself this - are we better off now than when we didn't go for it against Philly on 4th and 1? Are we better off now when McCarthy reaches for the little red flag?

I guess I expect a young head coach and his staff to make a big jump from year 1 to year 2. I haven't seen anything yet to make me think that McCarthy can't grow into becoming a fine head coach. I'm definitely more concerned with our running game.

To answer your questions, I guess at this point I'm not sure. I HOPE we are better off in both situations, but I don't know for sure.

I too expect coaches to learn a lot in their second seasons in a new role. I also expect the staff to know better how to work with each other to accomplish the task. Overall staff coordination is a lot more complex than some may realize. After all, there are 21 different coaches involved with the players, and what each one does can impact the success of some of the other coaches. They should be better at working with one another in the second year. Even their coordination during the game should be better (like making sure the right players are on the field, which was a problem at times last year.)

If the coaching staff is top-notch, they will overcome the weakness of the running game one way or another, even if it is with controlled, short passes to replace the running game.

[Patler]

I wonder though, how come the fan perception of Schottenheimer is so bad, yet he is continually employed and was staunchly defended last season...I don't get the discrepancy. Is there something we don't see as fans? Why keep him if he's so bad or conversely why do we think he's so bad if he's worth keeping?

The fraternity of coaches is a lot stronger than you might realize. I think some truly are blind to the abilities of their friends that they hire. There really is no other explanation, other than friendship and family ties, for why some coaches continue to find jobs. They fail time and time again.

There was a list last year about Schottenheimer's coaching background, and the success of the groups he coached. It was awful, and many times it was what we saw in GB. They were better before he came and after he left. Yet he continues to find employment.

[MJZiggy]

Maybe this is something for Mad to handle while he's in town. :wink: :lol:

[4and12to12and4]

Here's a hint at how we can make better adjustments after the half ...

HAVE LESS THAN TEN GUYS STAY IN TO BLOCK FOR BRETT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Might make a bit of a difference, ya think? :roll:

[Fritz]

I wonder though, how come the fan perception of Schottenheimer is so bad, yet he is continually employed and was staunchly defended last season...I don't get the discrepancy. Is there something we don't see as fans? Why keep him if he's so bad or conversely why do we think he's so bad if he's worth keeping?

The fraternity of coaches is a lot stronger than you might realize. I think some truly are blind to the abilities of their friends that they hire. There really is no other explanation, other than friendship and family ties, for why some coaches continue to find jobs. They fail time and time again.

There was a list last year about Schottenheimer's coaching background, and the success of the groups he coached. It was awful, and many times it was what we saw in GB. They were better before he came and after he left. Yet he continues to find employment.

Schottenheimer created a dynasty with a pee-wee team he coached back in the late 70's.

On a serious note, I'm a firm believer that improved talent and a year of experience will make MM and the staff better this year.

I also think that a lack of talent last year forced MM and the OC (sounds like a band, doesn't it?) to be extremely limited in their game-planning and limited, also, the adjustments they could make at the half. The lack of experience at halfback (do people use that term any more?) worries me in this regard this year. If MM can't trust the halfback du jour (Morency? Jackson? Grant? Wynn?) to pick up a blitzer, he's going to again be limited in terms of what he can call.

On the whole, though, I think the talent has improved, and a year's experience will help, too. We shall see.

[Patler]

Here's a hint at how we can make better adjustments after the half ...

HAVE LESS THAN TEN GUYS STAY IN TO BLOCK FOR BRETT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Might make a bit of a difference, ya think? :roll:

Don't make too much of a big deal about the max-protect used by the Packers last year. Everyone does it sometimes. GB may have used it more than in the past, but it wasn't all the time. After all, if they used max-protection so often, how did Martin, Franks and Lee find the opportunities to collective drop 14 passes in 2006??? :lol: :lol:

[the_idle_threat]

get a room, Patler & HarveyWallbanger

Why you have your hidden cams setup?


Uhhh, they'd probably just sit on the bed, tap their feet on the floor to signal their readiness to get started, then bring out their Pro Football Stat books for an all night session of exchanging fun facts.

Not much to see.


I think these are some thoughful discussion points, and don't understand why you want to threadcrap here.

Aww, let him threadcrap(?), Scott. :) It's part of the ambience around here ...

[Noodle]

More so than the OL, I think we can expect this staff to be better this year. I fault TT a little for putting in so many rooks, but the learning process must have been incredible for those guys.

My confidence is based more on the intangibles. MM and the staff did not lose the team's confidence, even when things looked like they were going in the tank. Why do I say that -- 4 straight wins at the end of the season. Yeah, they were against teams similar to us in record, or against a Bears team that had already locked, but still, the team played hard at all times.

I think the adjustments will be better this year because the coaches have a better sense of their players, and they'll be better experienced at adjusting schemes. But I agree this will be a key thing to watch for during the year.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think these are some thoughful discussion points, and don't understand why you want to threadcrap here.

Somebody, I think Patler, made a long, detailed post, and HW responded with another detailed post to agree with Patler's points. This struck me as funny, so I joked "Get a room" And that joke got bantered along a little bit. Perhaps it was a joke gone flat. It was hardly an attempt to kill the rest of the discussion.

But you know this. You just sensed an opportunity to do your thing.

[Bretsky]

I remain most concerned about the defensive staff; McGinn wrote an article last year questioning whether Sanders would even keep his job. Last year I called that that the pathetic offenses we'd face on the three game stretch before the Bears would save Sanders job, and it might have.

Schottenheimer, he has always been poor. It concerns me that MM would even consider the guy, more or less hire him on his staff. Leaders are suppose to surround themselves with the best available. Schottenheimer ???

We also get a new offensive coordinator this year; one with very little experience there. Not that Jags was considered outstanding, but he was good enough to be sought after as a head coach at some colleges. Less experience.

[Scott Campbell]

I think these are some thoughful discussion points, and don't understand why you want to threadcrap here.

Somebody, I think Patler, made a long, detailed post, and HW responded with another detailed post to agree with Patler's points. This struck me as funny, so I joked "Get a room" And that joke got bantered along a little bit. Perhaps it was a joke gone flat. It was hardly an attempt to kill the rest of the discussion.

But you know this. You just sensed an opportunity to do your thing.


Now don't go over-reacting. It's no biggie. I'm all for threadcrapping, as long as it's in the crappier threads.

[Harlan Huckleby]

ok

[HarveyWallbangers]

Somebody, I think Patler, made a long, detailed post, and HW responded with another detailed post to agree with Patler's points. This struck me as funny, so I joked "Get a room"

Actually, I disagreed with about half his points. Thus, the ongoing discussion that will end in a stalemate.
:D

[Harlan Huckleby]

I sensed a lot of affection. Frankly I was a little uncomfortable.