JS--""OL PUSHED AROUND""

[Bretsky]

O-line pushed around
Unit fails to protect Favre, open up run
By BOB McGINN
bmcginn@journalsentinel.com
Posted: Sept. 9, 2007

Green Bay - It was surprising, perhaps even startling, to watch how ineffectively the offensive line of the Green Bay Packers pass-blocked Sunday in a 16-13 victory over Philadelphia at Lambeau Field.
Tackles Chad Clifton and Mark Tauscher, left guard Daryn Colledge, job-sharing right guards Jason Spitz and Junius Coston and center Scott Wells were responsible for three of the Eagles' four sacks and the majority of five or six knockdowns.

It was unfamiliar territory for the unit, which was charged with merely 12½ sacks and 27½ knockdowns in 16 games last season.

"I'm sure they're disappointed," offensive coordinator Joe Philbin said. "There were a couple times where we thought going in we'd do a better job of protecting, let's put it that way."

Jim Johnson, the Eagles' defensive coordinator, started off blitzing but the Packers didn't blow any protections. Later, Johnson stopped blitzing when it became apparent that his four-man rushes were generating ample heat.

Not only that but the Eagles, highly suspect against the run, slammed down the 17 rushes that the Packers threw at them to the tune of 47 yards.

"We came in throwing the ball, that was our mind-set, and then running it to win," coach Mike McCarthy said. "We didn't get that part done. It's always great to push harder after a win. We're going to push real hard on offense this week."

Late in the second quarter, Clifton and Tauscher made weak attempts at cutting Trent Cole and Jevon Kearse and Brett Favre was sandwiched by the ends for a sack.

"We shouldn't have cut," Tauscher said. "There was some different verbiage and we weren't on the page we needed to be on. He (Favre) held the ball a little bit because it was a double move."

A series later, Colledge took a bad set, thought he had help inside from Wells when he didn't and was beaten by Montae Reagor for another sack. In 14 games at guard as a rookie, he didn't allow a sack.

"It was disappointing because I pride myself on my pass 'pro,' " Colledge said. "I know what I did last year and what I can do this year. He made a great play and I got punished for it."

In the third quarter, Tauscher was unable to influence defensive end Juqua Thomas on a bootleg and defensive tackle Mike Patterson closed for the sack.

Then, with 4½ minutes left in the fourth quarter, Clifton got beat around the corner by Cole for a fumble-causing sack.

"He feints a move inside, then he shortens the corner and goes around," Clifton said. "That's one of his special moves."

Only twice last season were offensive linemen involved in three sacks in a single game.

"Their pressure, as good as it was, wasn't really what gave us a lot of the protection problems," Philbin said. "The protection problems usually were just a man on a man."

In the running game, the Packers were so impotent that the Eagles played most of the way with both safeties deep and blunted the run with seven men.

"We've just got to fundamentally get ourselves back our basics," said Colledge, who also had two false-start penalties. "This was our first chance to play four quarters. We just have to sustain more."

Thomas, a seven-year veteran, played more than Kearse at left end and was impressive.

"For a guy who nobody outside the football annals would know, I think he's a really good football player," Tauscher said. "I couldn't tell you where he's from or what year he's in, but last year he caused fits, too."

Defensive tackle Brodrick Bunkley, the 14th pick in 2006, played over Colledge much of the game.

"Strong player," Colledge said. "I'm glad I got him this week instead of three or four weeks down the road. He's developing a better game every week."

Now Green Bay's unit needs to get on the same track.

[Packnut]

What? Our O line pushed around? It can't be. How many times was it posted here that our o-line would be vastly improved and we would have a run game? Hell, Harrell posted it over a thousand times alone. :P

Look's like all the rave reviews about Spitz may have been a tad pre-mature huh?

I hope some here have learned that all the rah-rah kool-aid wishing in the world does'nt change facts. We have no run game and we will not have one this season. We will be ranked at 20 or worse when it's all said and done.

Oh yeah, what was that FB's name I was bitching and moaning about because Thompson choked again on? 3 catches for 29 yds and a TOUCHDOWN. What did our converted LB do? But we have 14 mill in cap space.

Spare me the typical response about how it's only game 1. A blind man can see what's coming. Thank God for our D.

[Zool]

sniffle

[vince]

Haha, Zool that is perfect.

nut, the line has a lot of work to do. Everyone knows that.

Just to remind you of your chicken little stances from last year, here is some of the blithering drivel you spewed about a year ago...


http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=72353&highlight=#72353
I hope those few TT backers out there see the light. This guy is brutal from his coaching choice to player evaluating. There is not 1 damn thing that TT is good at as a GM.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=71952&highlight=#71952
Well after watching parts of all today's games, we can honestly start debating who our #1 pick should be next season… I've watched the other teams who are in the running for the #1 pick. Buffalo, NYJ and even the Niners are way ahead of us talent and coaching wise. …There really is'nt gonna be anything else to discuss Packer wise this season so why not try something positive? Now things can change but IF Green stays healthy and shows he can be our #1 back next season, then we gotta go with Mr Irish. Brady has the potential to be the next Brett Favre. Now if Green can't handle it then we gotta go RB and there will be a bunch to choose from. Ok, let the great debate begin!

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=74942&highlight=#74942
Where will the Pack pick [in the 2007 draft]?
Packnut: Top 3.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=73719&highlight=#73719
It's gonna take some time and it will be very painfull, but after we are embarrassed week in and week out and as the losses pile up, most of the "optimists" will realize that TT has set this team back more than Sherman ever did.


http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=73480&highlight=#73480
Woodson has to GO. NOW! SEND A MESSAGE
Packnut: Good post and very accurate.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=73309&highlight=#73309
The fact that any of you would defend this guy after yesterday is mind-boggling to say the least. It's one thing to get beat by Heap or Shockey but when you get beat by the worst TE in the game, you have more problems than just technique.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=75773&highlight=#75773
No my arguement is that he is not TALENTED enough to build a winning team and I believe the FACTS to date prove it.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=75761&highlight=#75761
Your faith in the drafting talents of TT amaze me. He has done NOTHING to even give a glimmer of hope. If you think stock-piling high draft choices is the answer, then you don't have a clue. Several teams have gone that route with no success. A GM need's to be able to bring in the right FA's and mix them in with the youth and I'd say there has been enough evidence to point out that TT is lacking in player evaluation skills.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=78661&highlight=#78661
This season will continue to suck and going 3-13 should'nt be a shock to anyone.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=87783&highlight=#87783
Cleaning house and going young has been tried before and it does'nt work. You need the right mix of vets and we have a GM that sucks at player evaluation. Yep, Woodson sure is worth all that cash. Yet, some will say TT is going in the right direction. There are several of the younger fans in this forum who have no concept of the 70's and 80's and sadly they are going to find out. They will understand how one bad choice has a snowball effect. I just don't see this "future hope" that they have. This team has so many holes, that it's just pathetic......

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=87311&highlight=#87311
Well may-be by the end of the season, many of you TT supporters will open your eyes and see that this guy has DESTROYED this franchise. He makes Dan Devine look smart. Let's see now, how many mistakes has he made with player moves? Every week it's the same line from MM- "we gotts get it fixed". He does'nt have a clue. Sherman was a much better coach than this clown will ever be and I never thought I'd say that. TT states he hired MM because of the man and not the x's and o's. Gee, does'nt that tell you something about him? Well at least he's honest cause MM does'nt know shit about x's and o's on either side of the ball.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=88594&highlight=#88594
This team is so far away from being competitive that it's pathetic.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=93449&highlight=#93449
I would love to buy the we're improving BS but the facts say that so far, TT has not improved us in even 1 area. … What happens IF we end up with a worse record than last season? Are you still gonna tell us we're improving under TT?????????????????????????

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=92923&highlight=#92923
The cap excuse has been worn to death by the TT supporters when in reality there were ways. TT is a freaking moron.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=97560&highlight=#97560
Pope is a HUGE upgrade over Herron. Good move by TT even if I was the first here to suggest it back in pre-season. Better late than never!

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=96912&highlight=#96912
The sad part is that we are so far away from even having a competitive D that it's depressing. Where is this improvment on D gonna come from? A lot of questions with few answers...........

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=101950&highlight=#101950
I think it all depends on what Thompson does. If he puts this team out on the field , then we'll be lucky to win 5 games.

Relax nut. Life's too short to be pissed at the world all the time. The FACTS (as you are so keen on) prove without a doubt that you have no more of a clue than anyone else around here. You're self-righteous ego and your inability to get over your grudges is taking you down.

[PackerBlues]

I get a real kick out of this:

"It was disappointing because I pride myself on my pass 'pro,' " Colledge said. "I know what I did last year and what I can do this year. He made a great play and I got punished for it."

Montae Reagor did not make a great play, Colledge let him through the line fucking clean!!!!! I do not like seeing bull shit excuses from a guy that allowed a sack on Favre. The Idiot should have been disapointed in his own stupidity, not making excuses about how he himself got punished for someone elses supposed "great play". :evil:

[PackerBlues]

Haha, Zool that is perfect.

nut, the line has a lot of work to do. Everyone knows that.

Just to remind you of your chicken little stances from last year, here is some of the blithering drivel you spewed about a year ago...

You know what Vince, I am sure if I wanted to go through the trouble of looking through all of your past posts, I would find a ton of rah rah crap, or as you put it, "spewed blithering drivel", so cut the looking down your nose bull shit, as if your opinions are worth any more than anyone elses around here.

[vince]

Haha, Zool that is perfect.

nut, the line has a lot of work to do. Everyone knows that.

Just to remind you of your chicken little stances from last year, here is some of the blithering drivel you spewed about a year ago...

You know what Vince, I am sure if I wanted to go through the trouble of looking through all of your past posts, I would find a ton of rah rah crap, or as you put it, "spewed blithering drivel", so cut the looking down your nose bull shit, as if your opinions are worth any more than anyone elses around here.
Go ahead Blues. I encourage you to do so. Everyone's opinions are open for scrutiny here.

[PackerBlues]

Go ahead Blues. I encourage you to do so. Everyone's opinions are open for scrutiny here.

Nah, quite all right. For the most part, I have always enjoyed your posts vince, but I really hate seeing anyones opinion getting belittled. heh heh, I tend to get a lot of that myself. :lol:

[HarveyWallbangers]

Nah, quite all right. For the most part, I have always enjoyed your posts vince, but I really hate seeing anyones opinion getting belittled. heh heh, I tend to get a lot of that myself. :lol:

Except when the belittling party has echoed your comments in the past apparently.

[PackerBlues]

Nah, quite all right. For the most part, I have always enjoyed your posts vince, but I really hate seeing anyones opinion getting belittled. heh heh, I tend to get a lot of that myself. :lol:

Except when the belittling party has echoed your comments in the past apparently.

I dunno Harv, there does seem to be a gang mentality in these forums at times though, perhaps like a prison gang mentality........join up with others, or be someone elses bitch? Either way, calling someone elses point of view or opinion "blithering drivel" just does not seem right to me. Sorry if that bothers you.

[Zool]

Nah, quite all right. For the most part, I have always enjoyed your posts vince, but I really hate seeing anyones opinion getting belittled. heh heh, I tend to get a lot of that myself. :lol:

Except when the belittling party has echoed your comments in the past apparently.

I dunno Harv, there does seem to be a gang mentality in these forums at times though, perhaps like a prison gang mentality........join up with others, or be someone elses bitch? Either way, calling someone elses point of view or opinion "blithering drivel" just does not seem right to me. Sorry if that bothers you.

Constant negativity can be just as bad can it not?

[HarveyWallbangers]

You open yourself up to a "gang mentality" when you make a post belittling other people's opinions.

[PackerBlues]

Constant negativity can be just as bad can it not?

You are right Zool, and if rehashing what I see going on with this team and the "what if's" regarding how the team could have been better is negative than I am guilty of that and you have my sincere apology.

At the same time, it is simply the opposite point of view to those that simply point out the good things going on with this team while pointing out the "what if's" that they see happening if the team evolves the way that they hope it will.

Differing opinions by people being either optimistic, or pessimistic. Nothing to get upset about, and certainly nothing to bash each other over. We are all fans of the Packers, and want nothing but the best for the Packers.

So, in the words of the famous Rodney King,................ "Quit hitting me"! :lol: lol

[4and12to12and4]

This is a ridiculous thread. Some here are out of their collective minds. A VERY YOUNG offense, without Jennings came out and did just enough. The fact we won this game is a fucking miracle. Philly is better than us right now. Period. Our team showed balls of steel and a heart of iron yesterday against one of the best defenses in the league. My God!!

What I saw, was that, if Brandon Jackson gets some holes, he is God awful hard to take down, and has a very quck juke move, he uses his hips and feet very well to make people miss, and he will do well if given the chance.

Philly's prone to give up the run? Are you on f'n Prozac? Go online and read off player by player their d-line and backers. You are out of you're mind. This game was going to be won by defense and special teams. Period. That's why I didn't even give us a chance. Because I felt they were better in both those categories, and probably are, we just made plays yesterday, big ones, and never quit. This team proved it is confident and how could you not play you're ass off for a QB as committed to winning as Favre showed yesterday. They knocked the shit out of him, and he just kept on ticking.

To analyze our offense from this game is insane. Philly will be in the top five defensively all year if they stay healthy. We pulled this one out of our ass, and should be thankful. 53 players busted their asses out there and wanted it more than a team loaded with talent on both sides of the ball. Our offense is better than they showed yesterday, I quarantee it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

This is a ridiculous thread. Some here are out of their collective minds. A VERY YOUNG offense, without Jennings came out and did just enough.

I agree with most of your post. But you can't possibly think the O-line played OK. I don't care who they were facing.

[Zool]

Constant negativity can be just as bad can it not?

You are right Zool, and if rehashing what I see going on with this team and the "what if's" regarding how the team could have been better is negative than I am guilty of that and you have my sincere apology.

At the same time, it is simply the opposite point of view to those that simply point out the good things going on with this team while pointing out the "what if's" that they see happening if the team evolves the way that they hope it will.

Differing opinions by people being either optimistic, or pessimistic. Nothing to get upset about, and certainly nothing to bash each other over. We are all fans of the Packers, and want nothing but the best for the Packers.

So, in the words of the famous Rodney King,................ "Quit hitting me"! :lol: lol

I'm all for healthy debate. I'm all for meaningful discussions, but you know damned well thats not always the case. Not every single post has to be whats wrong. I'm not specifically pointing at you either I'm just trying to make a general point. Negativity breeds negativity.

The idea behind a message board is a place where people can share ideas and talk about common subjects. You say that there is a gang mentality and that unpopular thought is chastised and ridiculed, but does it seem that everyone who's chastized is the same group thats always negative, dispariging and sometimes down right pissy in their posts?

I think the O-Line played like shit yesterday, but I dont follow that point up with a "Ted Thompson is a moron because...." diatribe. I could go on for days about my displeasure with Mike Sherman's drafting skills, but I dont. I could go into the romper room and bitch about all sorts of stupid shit but I dont.

People like to talk, discuss and debate. Most do not like listening or reading people bitching. If you've made a point more than 5 times and continue making the exact same point, people are either going to lash out at you or stop reading all together. As a mod, its my job to make the second one not happen. If people stop reading, they stop posting.

[PackerBlues]

This game was going to be won by defense and special teams. Period. That's why I didn't even give us a chance. Because I felt they were better in both those categories, and probably are, we just made plays yesterday, big ones, and never quit. This team proved it is confident and how could you not play you're ass off for a QB as committed to winning as Favre showed yesterday. They knocked the shit out of him, and he just kept on ticking.

To analyze our offense from this game is insane. Philly will be in the top five defensively all year if they stay healthy. We pulled this one out of our ass, and should be thankful. 53 players busted their asses out there and wanted it more than a team loaded with talent on both sides of the ball. Our offense is better than they showed yesterday, I quarantee it.

awesome! Thats a point of view I can get behind. I am negative and pessimistic by nature. To me, a pessimist is nothing more than an optimist with experience. Thank god for posts like this to help guys like me get by week to week. A different point of view is not always appreciated, but when its put across like this one, I for one, can certainly appreciate it.

[Noodle]

Philly is a good D, but their LBs are raw. One guy is effectively a rook, having been on IR last year, the other guy was a rook last year, started about 6 or 7 games, and is playing a new position, MLB, after they let Trotter go. Spikes is a stud, but this is his first year in Philly. They will be better by week 7 than they are now.

They do have a very good DL, but their tackles are known more for being run stoppers than pass rushers. What's the point? Here's the point -- lour OL got the stones put to them by a very good, but not great, defensive unit. Maybe, as Patler posits, it's the scheme. Me, I think our guys just aren't that good. Whatever it is, I don't think it's something that we're just going to be able to fix, but rather is something we're going to have to deal with. All season long.

[VanPackFan]

The Packers won yesterday's game through a combination of special teams and defence.
Aren't those the same facets of the game that have fueled the Chicago Bears revival in recent years. I wouldn't apologize for gutting out a win that way. Not for one second.

Did the offence suck? Hell yeah.
The offensive line was absolutely putrid, and everyone on that line knows it. What encourages me is that, imo, the offence played about as bad as it possibly could yesterday and the Packers still won the game.
As they say, no where for the offence to go but up. If the line pulls the pass protection together next week and Jennings is back on the field, there's no reason Green Bay shouldn't be able to put up some nice passing numbers against the Giants secondary.
Run blocking isn't a strength of the unit so I'm keeping my expectations low, but I don't pin any of the blame for yesterday's run futility on Brandon Jackson. On the few (very very few) plays in which he was given any room to run, he showed some of the speed and quickness that prompted TT to draft him.
And he held up reasonably well in pass protect, an area I was really concerned about.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Good take, Vancouver. Welcome to the board!

[Fritz]

If you've made a point more than 5 times and continue making the exact same point, people are either going to lash out at you or stop reading all together.

If you've made a point more than 5 times and continue making the exact same point, people are either going to lash out at you or stop reading all together.

If you've made a point more than 5 times and continue making the exact same point, people are either going to lash out at you or stop reading all together.

If you've made a point more than 5 times and continue making the exact same point, people are either going to lash out at you or stop reading all together.


If you've made a point more than 5 times and continue making the exact same point, people are either going to lash out at you or stop reading all together.

If you've made a point more than 5 times and continue making the exact same point, people are either going to lash out at you or stop reading all together.


Lash away...unless you stopped reading.

Right on, Zool. If your point is negative, people get tired of the negativity. If your point is pure Pollyanna, people are going to get tired of your lack of reality.

Personally, I enjoy the ability as a fan to change my mind - often in the same post. At the same time, I also think that if people are going to get bitter in their constant criticisms, a little accountability doesn't hurt.

[MJZiggy]

What was that, Fritz? I stopped reading...

[woodbuck27]

This forum is going to erupt if we can't accept the differences that we are going to have here because of the state our offense was left in.

Any Packer fan would have to be either not into it or deluded to support the neglect our team has suffered on the offensive side of the ball.

It is too obvious and when some Packer fans here illustrate evidence of that fact they are the ones that get bashed or harassed. Told to keep quiet in diferent manners of what some may deem polite.

Everyone here has to take a good and honest look at themselves.

Now the season has begun and we stumbled upon a win against a team we had no business defeating yesyerday. That is just great, but if there are some here that feel we arn't playoff bound and post evidence of that what damage is it doing to those of you that are on the other side?

Remain with your convictions and stop the harassment and whineing if the stance disagrees with your delicate psyche. PLEASE.

STOP pushing or bullying other's here around and stop continuing to muzzel those here that hate our situation offensively.

Last time I checked I lived in a democrasy. Last time I checked a difference of opinion or evidence to support a stance was part of the democratic process. Debate is healthy as long as it's polite debate.

Being Canadian I have real difficulty with anything that denys me or intimadates my rights of fair speech and expression.

Being a Packer fan I will do all I can to ensure that we don't suffer another off season as e just did.

The season has begun and thes proof will be in the pudding.

GO PACKERSv !!

[MJZiggy]

On the other side: if the Eagles can't do much against our defense, who will? San Diego might be the only one.

Give it a few games Harvey. Wait till the season is half over then we'll see just how great our 'D' is.

Will you do the same for the offense? Or it too obvious for us minions to see?

[RashanGary]

I freaked out a little yesterday because of how bad the Oline looked. McCarthy seemed pretty genuine about getting it fixed.

HH had a great point. We have one piece of information; one dot on a graph if you will. Let's see where it takes us. IF there is a steady up climb with a few bumps in the road, we're on playoff track. If we stay the same, we're probably pressed to go 8-8.

Right now it's still wait and see although I agree that it looked really bad yesterday.

[VanPackFan]

Assuming we can all agree that the offensive line was atrocious, can we start unearthing reasons why that might have been?
What did people notice? Obviously College had a handful of rough snaps. Do we feel Tauscher and Clifton have both hit the veteran wall or is this merely a bump in the road for two established tackles?
Do we feel comfortable with Junius Coston at guard in place of Spitz and does the teflon man, Scott Wells feel any heat? I never see him blamed for much of anything. Maybe he's too likeable and quotable to hate?

I thought the running back pass protect was as good as to be expected yesterday. So instead of beating the same dead horse — offensive line sucked!!! — let's see if we can be constructive and come up with some reasonable suggestions A) why and B) what can be done to improve.

[MJZiggy]

I think I'm gonna like having you around here...

[vince]

This forum is going to erupt if we can't accept the differences that we are going to have here because of the state our offense was left in.

Any Packer fan would have to be either not into it or deluded to support the neglect our team has suffered on the offensive side of the ball.

It is too obvious and when some Packer fans here illustrate evidence of that fact they are the ones that get bashed or harassed. Told to keep quiet in diferent manners of what some may deem polite.

Everyone here has to take a good and honest look at themselves.

Now the season has begun and we stumbled upon a win against a team we had no business defeating yesyerday. That is just great, but if there are some here that feel we arn't playoff bound and post evidence of that what damage is it doing to those of you that are on the other side?

Remain with your convictions and stop the harassment and whineing if the stance disagrees with your delicate psyche. PLEASE.

STOP pushing or bullying other's here around and stop continuing to muzzel those here that hate our situation offensively.

Last time I checked I lived in a democrasy. Last time I checked a difference of opinion or evidence to support a stance was part of the democratic process. Debate is healthy as long as it's polite debate.

Being Canadian I have real difficulty with anything that denys me or intimadates my rights of fair speech and expression.

Being a Packer fan I will do all I can to ensure that we don't suffer another off season as e just did.

The season has begun and thes proof will be in the pudding.

GO PACKERSv !!
Woody you are completely missing the point. There is no problem whatsoever with differing opinions. The problem is when certain posters state their opinions as facts that only idiots could possibly disagree with, and constantly denigrate posters as "blind," "stupid," "moron," and self-righteously rub everyone's nose in the mud if they happen to be right about something, then they open their posts and opinions up to the same level of scrutiny and criticism they bestow on others. When posters state their opinions respectfully, I think they are treated with respect.

I fully understand that by coming on strong at times, I open myself up to the same type of behavior, and I accept that with no problem. Trust me, I won't be whining about being mistreated. I'll argue the facts.

Someone said a while back that people tend to get what they deserve around here. That's how it should be.

[Scott Campbell]

STOP pushing or bullying other's here around and stop continuing to muzzel those here that hate our situation offensively.


What a bunch of crap Woody. In this same post you imply that those that disagree with you are dellusional.

You are definitely a BIG part of the problem.

[b bulldog]

siv

[Him8123]

wow, think the nut hates TT. Yea our offensive line looked pretty bad yesterday, but them guys are only in their second year. They haven`t learned all the tricks of the trade yet. Even Kampman said he is still learning things. This line is very talented to play like they are (except for yesterday) with as little as experience as they have. It was the first game, against a very physical and veteran Defense. WE WON AND WE SHOULD BE SMILING EAR TO EAR AND REJOICING TOGETHER. Lets have a beer and celebrate being 1-0. Mccarthy is going to be a great coach, I can see it in him, we`ll be fine. I dont expect a huge amount of production from the O-side this year it will be our D that wins most of the games. But today I`m happy cause I`m a Packer fan and we just kicked the eagles to the curve.

[Brandon494]

haha great post Vince.

[red]

yesterday i watched as one of my greatest fears appered before me

i was right

our offense is not going to be "alright", or "just fine"

i watched as our offense couldn't do a god damn thing yesterday. there was and still is plenty of room for improvement on the o side of the ball. yet TT didn't think so

we now has what looks to be a championship caliber defense and an NFLE caliber o-line and backfield

we're almost better off to punt on first downs at this point

[VanPackFan]

Prior to the first regular season game I thought people were more concerned about our running backs than our offensive line.
Here's how I viewed the line...

Tausher - solid
Colledge - solid with upside
Wells - solid
Spitz - solid with upside
Clifton - solid with downside
Coston - untested with upside

Now our offensive line is NFL Europa calibre? Isn't that a bit drastic? They may not be a top 10 unit, but I certainly would say they're better than half the teams in the league, and with enough potential to improve to a top-10 unit.
This offensive line proved they can successfully function over a 16-game season last year, and they did it through a spate of injuries and inexperience. Granted, McCarthy often left in extra blocking, but the rookies in the interior did NOT embarrass themselves.
So there's your base. There's what we know they CAN do.
If they continue to not do it, there are two logical explanations... A) there has been a serious regression across the board or B) there is a problem with the zone blocking scheme.
Option A is a killer, but it's also extremely unlikely that a talented group has suddenly become bad. Option B is also a killer, but it's a fixable situation if the coaching is there. I prefer to go with option B and I prefer to think the offensive line situation will improve weekly.

[PackerBlues]

This is gonna sound screwy coming from me, but I think you are all being a little hard on our Offense a little to soon. As soon as the regular season started for the Packers at noon Sunday, these rookies and young pups of Thompsons, became our boys, our team. No Rany Moss's, no Ahman Greens......

.......... the Packers just played against what is supposed to be one of the top 5 Defenses in the league. All of us already knew that our O-line was not much better than average. Many of us assumed they were getting better, but we didn't know for sure, I still don't think that we know for sure. Dont ya all think that maybe we should see how our O-line fairs against a defense that isn't quite so damned good before we throw in the towel? I will tell you all one thing, I fully expect Favre to have a better passing game against teams with lesser Defenses than the Eagles. I see no reason why our running game wouldn't do better as well.

[Bretsky]

I freaked out a little yesterday because of how bad the Oline looked. McCarthy seemed pretty genuine about getting it fixed.

HH had a great point. We have one piece of information; one dot on a graph if you will. Let's see where it takes us. IF there is a steady up climb with a few bumps in the road, we're on playoff track. If we stay the same, we're probably pressed to go 8-8.

Right now it's still wait and see although I agree that it looked really bad yesterday.


Your freaking was genuine at least; it was nice to see you not stumbling around all drunk on Kool Aide once :lol:

I'm happy with the win.

Before the game, I thought our OL was below average, our TE's were below average, our RB's were way below average, and our offense was below average. While Phily IMO is not a top 8 defense, nothing that occured yesterday surprised me.

I'm content for getting a win with what we had.

But we won so I'm just

[Bretsky]

Prior to the first regular season game I thought people were more concerned about our running backs than our offensive line.
Here's how I viewed the line...

Tausher - solid
Colledge - solid with upside
Wells - solid
Spitz - solid with upside
Clifton - solid with downside
Coston - untested with upside

Now our offensive line is NFL Europa calibre? Isn't that a bit drastic? They may not be a top 10 unit, but I certainly would say they're better than half the teams in the league, and with enough potential to improve to a top-10 unit.
This offensive line proved they can successfully function over a 16-game season last year, and they did it through a spate of injuries and inexperience. Granted, McCarthy often left in extra blocking, but the rookies in the interior did NOT embarrass themselves.
So there's your base. There's what we know they CAN do.
If they continue to not do it, there are two logical explanations... A) there has been a serious regression across the board or B) there is a problem with the zone blocking scheme.
Option A is a killer, but it's also extremely unlikely that a talented group has suddenly become bad. Option B is also a killer, but it's a fixable situation if the coaching is there. I prefer to go with option B and I prefer to think the offensive line situation will improve weekly.

You are more optimistic than me

I'd go

Clifton - solid, and better on pass versus the run
Tauscher- solid, and better versus pass than run
Spitz- challenged on both
Coston-challenged
Colledge- average with upside-better versus pass then run
Wells- solid

I would not automatically put us in the top half if you throw age and upside out the window. I'd consider this overall to be a below average unit. Possibly way below average on run blocking and slightly above average on pass blocking.

With that being said, Favre was running for his life most of yesterday and I've never been at a game and witnessed Favre get knocked on his @ss nearly as much as he did against Phily.

[Bretsky]

This is gonna sound screwy coming from me, but I think you are all being a little hard on our Offense a little to soon. As soon as the regular season started for the Packers at noon Sunday, these rookies and young pups of Thompsons, became our boys, our team. No Rany Moss's, no Ahman Greens......

.......... the Packers just played against what is supposed to be one of the top 5 Defenses in the league. All of us already knew that our O-line was not much better than average. Many of us assumed they were getting better, but we didn't know for sure, I still don't think that we know for sure. Dont ya all think that maybe we should see how our O-line fairs against a defense that isn't quite so damned good before we throw in the towel? I will tell you all one thing, I fully expect Favre to have a better passing game against teams with lesser Defenses than the Eagles. I see no reason why our running game wouldn't do better as well.


I don't agree that Phily is a top 5 defense. Maybe top 8-12

[MJZiggy]

This is gonna sound screwy coming from me, but I think you are all being a little hard on our Offense a little to soon. As soon as the regular season started for the Packers at noon Sunday, these rookies and young pups of Thompsons, became our boys, our team. No Rany Moss's, no Ahman Greens......

.......... the Packers just played against what is supposed to be one of the top 5 Defenses in the league. All of us already knew that our O-line was not much better than average. Many of us assumed they were getting better, but we didn't know for sure, I still don't think that we know for sure. Dont ya all think that maybe we should see how our O-line fairs against a defense that isn't quite so damned good before we throw in the towel? I will tell you all one thing, I fully expect Favre to have a better passing game against teams with lesser Defenses than the Eagles. I see no reason why our running game wouldn't do better as well.

OK, Who are you and how did you get PB's password? Nice post. I agree with it. :bclap: :glug: :cow:

[the_idle_threat]

Haha, Zool that is perfect.

nut, the line has a lot of work to do. Everyone knows that.

Just to remind you of your chicken little stances from last year, here is some of the blithering drivel you spewed about a year ago...


http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=72353&highlight=#72353
I hope those few TT backers out there see the light. This guy is brutal from his coaching choice to player evaluating. There is not 1 damn thing that TT is good at as a GM.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=71952&highlight=#71952
Well after watching parts of all today's games, we can honestly start debating who our #1 pick should be next season… I've watched the other teams who are in the running for the #1 pick. Buffalo, NYJ and even the Niners are way ahead of us talent and coaching wise. …There really is'nt gonna be anything else to discuss Packer wise this season so why not try something positive? Now things can change but IF Green stays healthy and shows he can be our #1 back next season, then we gotta go with Mr Irish. Brady has the potential to be the next Brett Favre. Now if Green can't handle it then we gotta go RB and there will be a bunch to choose from. Ok, let the great debate begin!

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=74942&highlight=#74942
Where will the Pack pick [in the 2007 draft]?
Packnut: Top 3.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=73719&highlight=#73719
It's gonna take some time and it will be very painfull, but after we are embarrassed week in and week out and as the losses pile up, most of the "optimists" will realize that TT has set this team back more than Sherman ever did.


http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=73480&highlight=#73480
Woodson has to GO. NOW! SEND A MESSAGE
Packnut: Good post and very accurate.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=73309&highlight=#73309
The fact that any of you would defend this guy after yesterday is mind-boggling to say the least. It's one thing to get beat by Heap or Shockey but when you get beat by the worst TE in the game, you have more problems than just technique.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=75773&highlight=#75773
No my arguement is that he is not TALENTED enough to build a winning team and I believe the FACTS to date prove it.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=75761&highlight=#75761
Your faith in the drafting talents of TT amaze me. He has done NOTHING to even give a glimmer of hope. If you think stock-piling high draft choices is the answer, then you don't have a clue. Several teams have gone that route with no success. A GM need's to be able to bring in the right FA's and mix them in with the youth and I'd say there has been enough evidence to point out that TT is lacking in player evaluation skills.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=78661&highlight=#78661
This season will continue to suck and going 3-13 should'nt be a shock to anyone.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=87783&highlight=#87783
Cleaning house and going young has been tried before and it does'nt work. You need the right mix of vets and we have a GM that sucks at player evaluation. Yep, Woodson sure is worth all that cash. Yet, some will say TT is going in the right direction. There are several of the younger fans in this forum who have no concept of the 70's and 80's and sadly they are going to find out. They will understand how one bad choice has a snowball effect. I just don't see this "future hope" that they have. This team has so many holes, that it's just pathetic......

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=87311&highlight=#87311
Well may-be by the end of the season, many of you TT supporters will open your eyes and see that this guy has DESTROYED this franchise. He makes Dan Devine look smart. Let's see now, how many mistakes has he made with player moves? Every week it's the same line from MM- "we gotts get it fixed". He does'nt have a clue. Sherman was a much better coach than this clown will ever be and I never thought I'd say that. TT states he hired MM because of the man and not the x's and o's. Gee, does'nt that tell you something about him? Well at least he's honest cause MM does'nt know shit about x's and o's on either side of the ball.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=88594&highlight=#88594
This team is so far away from being competitive that it's pathetic.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=93449&highlight=#93449
I would love to buy the we're improving BS but the facts say that so far, TT has not improved us in even 1 area. … What happens IF we end up with a worse record than last season? Are you still gonna tell us we're improving under TT?????????????????????????

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=92923&highlight=#92923
The cap excuse has been worn to death by the TT supporters when in reality there were ways. TT is a freaking moron.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=97560&highlight=#97560
Pope is a HUGE upgrade over Herron. Good move by TT even if I was the first here to suggest it back in pre-season. Better late than never!

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=96912&highlight=#96912
The sad part is that we are so far away from even having a competitive D that it's depressing. Where is this improvment on D gonna come from? A lot of questions with few answers...........

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=101950&highlight=#101950
I think it all depends on what Thompson does. If he puts this team out on the field , then we'll be lucky to win 5 games.

Relax nut. Life's too short to be pissed at the world all the time. The FACTS (as you are so keen on) prove without a doubt that you have no more of a clue than anyone else around here. You're self-righteous ego and your inability to get over your grudges is taking you down.

Great post.

Harsh, but needed to be said.

[PackerBlues]

I'm not going to lie to ya Bretsky, I was not the least bit happy with our O-line, in particular, the way that they protected Favre........or I guess I should say the way that they did not protect Favre.

I was one of the guys bitching about being sick of the max protection. I was one of the guys who was sick of seeing our TE's having to stay back to help protect Favre.

From my point of view, the training wheels just came off of our O-line. We are going to see some scraped knees, and thats going to be a part of the growing pains that we are going to have to suffer through watching. Hopefully, Favre is not the one getting the scraped knees, but as much as I hate to say it, for this team to win, it will have to be a complete team effort, and Favre is going to have to take his lumps along with everyone else.

The thought nagging me at the back of my mind, is that it may be more a problem with the coaching, than it is with the players themselves.

[BobDobbs]

I think that there is alot of unfounded speculation flying around, but since it is the first game I guess that is to be expected.

Firstly, where is this idea that Philly is a top five defense coming from? They weren't very good against the run last year. I thingk that they are strong up front, but I don't see the playmakers that the Ravens, Steelers, or Chargers have. We'll have to see the Eagles play against offenses that are more balanced and dangerous before we crown them.

But really this is an offensive line thread. The expectations for this line were WAY too high. There is now a stock market like correction happening so many are feeling scared. "The line has another year of experience and weight room training, so they will be much improved." This was repeated as Mantra until it became accepted as fact.

Hope and evidence aren't the same. Players like John Jolly and Jim Jones showed in the preseason that they are real contributors, so we shouldn't be surprised when they play well. The line never showed that in the preseason. In fact they didn't get to play much together at all.

This brings me to my last point. It seems that the sparing use of starters in preseaon games may have been wise for players like our aging cornerbacks who play on an island. But it may not have been a good idea for a young unit that has to work in concert. We can hope that they get a better feel as the year goes on.

There is no reason to think that the pass blocking cannot be improved, because there is a proven track record. The doubters may end up being right about the run blocking though.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Philadelphia is a top 10 defense. I don't think they are top 5, but they are close. Ranking defenses based on yardage is one of the most foolish things around. At least, if that's the only thing people rank them on. Sacks, turnovers, points allowed, 3rd down %, etc. also factor into it. Philadelphia has had a good defense for awhile--even if the yardage totals don't reflect it. They have plenty of talent. Kearse, Cole, and Howard give them three good DEs when they are healthy. They are healthy. Sheppard, Brown, William James (formerly William Peterson of the Giants), and Hanson give them two good starting corners and two good backups also. Dawkins may be the best S in the NFC. Considine had a solid rookie season. Patterson is a solid DT. So, what does that leave? The other DT and LBs. Well, last year's first round pick, Brodrick Bunkley, looks like a different player this year. Takeo Spikes is a solid LB. Nobody has heard of the other two LBs, but that doesn't mean they aren't good. There was a lot of talk last year about how impressive Omar Gaither looked. Maybe he just wasn't quite ready. This year, he looks ready. I suspect he'll be a major upgrade on Trotter. Gocong was a high draft pick last year. He certainly has the physical skills to be a good player. Pretty damn good defense if you ask me.

Last year, Philadelphia was middle of the pack in yardage allowed, but they ranked 8th in interceptions, 5th in forced fumbles, 1st in pass deflections, and 8th in sacks. Those are great stats across the board. That's with injuries hitting them hard. They have better talent to correct their relative weakness last year--run defense up the middle. They are a better defense this year with Bunkley, Spikes, Gaither replacing a washed up Trotter, Will James, and a healthier Jevon Kearse.

[RashanGary]

Nice post on Philly, HW. They did look strong. I expected our offense to be better. Maybe we should tip our hats to Philly. Maybe it was all us. I don't know right now.

I'm pretty sure the Giants aren't a great defense. Let's see how we do this week. I won't be tipping my hat to good defense if we flop again though. At some point they have to step up and play well and after this week that sometime has to be right now if we are to have any amount of confidence in this offense.

[MJZiggy]

I don't even care if the don't ever step up on offense, so long as at the end of the game, I'm writing a W on my schedule.

[RashanGary]

I don't even care if the don't ever step up on offense, so long as at the end of the game, I'm writing a W on my schedule.

Ziggy, we're not going to win every game with two muffed punts that set up 10 points and an interception that sets up another 3. Philly was a good team, it's not time to panic but we have to get better and it has to be soon. This team can't afford to drop games like the Giants, Vikings, Lions or Redskins because we have teams like Denver, Chicago, Sandiego and Dallas coming up. I'm hoping for a legit playoff threat and a true NFC competitor. IF our offense doesn't improve greatly, I feel pretty confident that, that will not happen as we envisioned it.

[RashanGary]

DP

[Bretsky]

I don't even care if the don't ever step up on offense, so long as at the end of the game, I'm writing a W on my schedule.

Ziggy, we're not going to win every game with two muffed punts that set up 10 points and an interception that sets up another 3. Philly was a good team, it's not time to panic but we have to get better and it has to be soon. This team can't afford to drop games like the Giants, Vikings, Lions or Redskins because we have teams like Denver, Chicago, Sandiego and Dallas coming up. I'm hoping for a legit playoff threat and a true NFC competitor. IF our offense doesn't improve greatly, I feel pretty confident that, that will not happen as we envision it.

I have a glass of Kool Aide in my hand

With an Inglebird Martin like talent at QB and no defense worth discussing, we are going to pound the Giants

Take it to the Bank :alc: :alc: :alc: :alc: :glug:

[MJZiggy]

I don't even care if the don't ever step up on offense, so long as at the end of the game, I'm writing a W on my schedule.

Ziggy, we're not going to win every game with two muffed punts that set up 10 points and an interception that sets up another 3. Philly was a good team, it's not time to panic but we have to get better and it has to be soon. This team can't afford to drop games like the Giants, Vikings, Lions or Redskins because we have teams like Denver, Chicago, Sandiego and Dallas coming up. I'm hoping for a legit playoff threat and a true NFC competitor. IF our offense doesn't improve greatly, I feel pretty confident that, that will not happen as we envisioned it.

You missed my point. I didn't say they won't ever step up. They will come together as the season moves on like they did last year. How did the o-line play against Chicago in last year's opener? How'd they play vs. the same team to close the season? And there are times when your defense can win the game for you. But even that wasn't my point. My point was, ugly as it was, it was a win, they fought for it, they deserved it because they never lost faith in their ability to fight it out and it put a W on my schedule. I don't care how they do it as long as that W appears...

[RashanGary]

Yeah, and my point is the W's won't keep appearing if we don't get better soon.

Oh well, I'm being very critical on them for how bad they played. McCarthy seems focused on fixing it. Let's see how it goes. We do need improvment though. I'm really hoping, as a fan, for big improvments with the Oline this week. I think we need it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Jim Jones showed in the preseason that

:) The original Kool Aide man is now a Packer, never thought of that.


But those hacks had nothing on the Church of the SubGenius, eh Bob?

[Bretsky]

Yeah, and my point is the W's won't keep appearing if we don't get better soon.

Oh well, I'm being very critical on them for how bad they played. McCarthy seems focused on fixing it. Let's see how it goes. We do need improvment though. I'm really hoping, as a fan, for big improvments with the Oline this week. I think we need it.


Right now the difference between us is your expectations are much higher.

[BobDobbs]

The original Kool Aide man is now a Packer, never thought of that.


But those hacks had nothing on the Church of the SubGenius, eh Bob?

You're right about that Harlan. What's the point of amassing a cult following just rabid to do your bidding if you're not going to get filthy rich and fancy outfits? Just look at scientology. Now THAT is a cult. :lol:

Anyway, any tea leaf reader worth their, um, leaves can plainly see that the arrival of the man called Jim Jones is a sign of the arrival of the Age of Everflowing Kool Aide. So drink deep brothers and sisters for it is foretold that all will soon have a Kool Aide mustache.

[wist43]

I hadn't had time until last night to go back and look at the game a little bit...

The OL - all 5 of them - were putrid, just absolutely putrid. Watching it live, you don't pay that close of attention to the OL, unless there is an obvious breakdown that lands Brett on his rear end, but taking the time to run thru the plays a few times each - that OL was nothing short of embarrassing.

Wells simply isn't big enough... routinely blown into the backfield. The only chance Wells has of accomplishing his assignment on any given play is if the defensive linemen is already committed to going where Wells is supposed to block him. He's great in space... would probably rather see him at FB.

Spitz was awful, and likely has lost his job to Coston. Spitz couldn't redirect, he wiffed far too often in the open field, he got no movement in the running game... this could be a long list, suffice it to say, his being benched is very much justified.

Colledge wasn't as bad as Spitz, but he was a disaster as well. He gets knocked around far too easily, and although he doesn't get knocked back into the backfield as much as Wells, he still gets handled fairly easily by just about any DT across from him.

Clifton's play was disasterous... maybe the knees have caught up to him to the point where he can't play anymore. If he doesn't pick it up, he'll have to be benched as well. It isn't a matter of whether I would like to see him benched or not, which I wouldn't - I like Clifton, but if he can't play any better than he did on Sunday - then he can't play. It's that simple. Clifton almost cost them the game allowing that 4th quarter sack and fumble. That one play stood out, but he was awful the whole game.

Tauscher wasn't great, but at least he wasn't as complete a disaster as the other 4. Still, he didn't play very well either.

Overall, this has to be the worst OL in the NFL... or at least they played that way. Everyone is happy with the win, but unless the OL gets up to speed, their season will be sunk.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The only chance Wells has of accomplishing his assignment on any given play is if the defensive linemen is already committed to going where Wells is supposed to block him.

You're being too harsh. It's also possible that the defender will trip and fall down. Or pull a groin muscle.