Suspend Him!!!!!

[packinpatland]

This from Mike Celizic:

IF BELICHICK SPIED, SUSPEND HIM

If Patriots’ coach Bill Belichick is found to have ordered the taping of Jets’ defensive signals against NFL rules, he’s a cheater. And if NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell finds that is the case, Belichick should get the same penalty that players who cheat by using drugs get. He should be suspended for four games for what would be his first offense.

I don’t mean banned from the sidelines. I mean banned from any contact with the team, whether in person or via e-mail, instant messenger, overnight express, phone, carrier pigeon, semaphores or smoke signals.

That’s the rule for individuals who try to get an advantage by taking illegal performance-enhancing drugs. It’s only fair that it should be the rule for coaches who take illegal performance-enhancing videotapes.

In my last entry, I admit I grossly underplayed the incident. On Monday, I wrote that I didn’t think Belichick was involved in team employees taping the Jets’ defensive signals on the sidelines during Sunday’s game against the Jets. I didn’t put espionage past Belichick, but I felt that the method used was too crude and obvious to be his work. I thought he was too smart for such obvious method as standing on the sideline and pointing a camcorder at the Jets defensive coaches.

I was wrong. The NFL has determined that the Pats were taping the signals, a violation of NFL rules, and Belichick has issued a brief apology, although exactly what he is apologizing for isn’t clear. He blames the incident on his own misreading of league rules.

Commissioner Roger Goodell, who’s done little during his brief tenure other than put out forest fires, is reportedly extremely ticked off. He should be. The integrity of many sports is under attack, and the NFL is no exception. Fans want to know that what they’re seeing is legitimate. Stealing signals violates the trust of the fans as well as the basic rules of fair play and sportsmanship. And this incident makes you wonder what else Belichick has been doing during his extraordinary tenure in New England.

It’s not stealing signals that has propelled this past my threshold of moral outrage. Having a coach or employee watch the sidelines and attempt to decipher what they’re looking at is totally within the rules and part of the game. Even recording the action from a seat in the stands might be viewed as somewhat legitimate – you’re not seeing anything that game cameras and other fans can’t see.

But the rules specifically prohibit such taping on the sidelines, and that’s what the Patriots’ employees were doing, and from the apology and the statement, it was done with Belichick’s knowledge and most likely his blessing. With a tight zoom from that vantage point, you can read the play chart and link what you see with the calls being made.

There are ways to counter such espionage, as I wrote Monday. No team should be victimized by such tactics if they take simple precautions. But the action taken was a violation of league rules for the purpose of cheating – at least that’s the indication from Goodell’s office.

Belickick saying he misinterpreted the rules doesn’t wash. It’s the same as a player caught with tainted urine arguing that he didn’t know what was in that supplement he was taking. Ignorance is no excuse. Like players considering a supplement, it’s his obligation to call the league to see if what he wants to do is permitted.

Word is that Goodell is considering docking the Pats several draft choices. That would hurt, no question about it. But why have one set of rules for players and another for coaches? If Belichick cheated, let him suffer the same penalty as a player who does.

Give him four weeks of in-season vacation.

[Deputy Nutz]

I certainly agree, and this is coming from a pats fan

[LL2]

I heard on the radio that this spying business could cost the Patriots a 1st rd pick and maybe more! Ouch!

[packinpatland]

The punishment needs to immediate...not a future draft pick.

He's a smart man, touted as a football genius, he knew the rules...he broke them, he needs to be suspended.

[cheesner]

Hmmm, where did I hear the possible Belechik suspension?

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=8200&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Charging them a no 1 pick would be huge. It would certainly send a message. I don't know if it will affet Belechik much though, I am thinking he is retiring after this year. I say put a spot of tarnish on him - suspend him.

[Rastak]

The punishment needs to immediate...not a future draft pick.

He's a smart man, touted as a football genius, he knew the rules...he broke them, he needs to be suspended.



I COMPLETELY disagree. A suspension does nothing while the loss of a high draft pick HURTS. Suspension is for show, draft pick is to deter others from pulling the same crap.

[Jimx29]

the Pats needs to forfeit the win and give the win to the Jets

[Rastak]

the Pats needs to forfeit the win and give the win to the Jets


THAT is the ultimate deterent.

[Patler]

I sure hope the Packers are smarter at hiding their cameras and informants with binoculars than the Patriots appear to be!
:) :) :)

[packinpatland]

the Pats needs to forfeit the win and give the win to the Jets


THAT is the ultimate deterent.

No kidding. Then they need to give us the win from last year too, right? :wink:

[Packers4Ever]

the Pats needs to forfeit the win and give the win to the Jets


THAT is the ultimate deterent.


Maybe he'd be further deterred by a 4 game suspension

AND loss of 1st draft pick ?? Serves dual purpose. :!:

[Lurker64]

No kidding. Then they need to give us the win from last year too, right? :wink:

9-7 would put us in the playoffs instead of the Giants, they ought to replay last year's postseason as a result.

[4and12to12and4]

OK, this really pisses me off. First off, I hate the Patriots. So, I am elated at this news because it really tarnishes the organization. But, hell, what about the Jets, who sit at 0-1, and were beaten by a team that knew what they were running play by play? Who is helping them? If you ask me, they should give the Jets the win, and the Patriots the loss. If you got beat at a game, and found out someone cheated to beat you, would you still be declared the winner? Not in Vegas, baby. You're ass would be paying back all you're money plus interest with a jail sentence or at least a nice little boot out of town for the rest of you're life. You certainly wouldn't keep your winnings. How fair is it that the Jets have to start their season a game back by losing to a team that cheated to beat them? Plus, this prick was probably doing this all last year too, as we know, and god knows how much information they have stored up through the years with the hidden cameras. They probably know our entire playbook. Remember the asskicking we took last year, and how that affected the confidence of the team and us fans? They probably have a guy buying tickets to the game of their next weeks opponents and have him sitting in the stands taking pictures to help study for the next week. Sit Billy out? To hell with that, take away what really hurts, the win. This is unprecedented, and should be met with stern punishment.
If all teams are doing this, and they just happened to get caught, disregard this post.

[gbgary]

no suspension. forfeit the game and multiple draft pick loss be better. like their next two first round picks. something big that will really be a deterent. something that a team can't look at and say it'll still be worth it.

[oregonpackfan]

The punishment needs to immediate...not a future draft pick.

He's a smart man, touted as a football genius, he knew the rules...he broke them, he needs to be suspended.

When you hear the words "Patriots" and "suspension" the first name that comes to mind is "Randy Moss."

Who would have thought it might be the coach?

[packinpatland]

The punishment needs to immediate...not a future draft pick.

He's a smart man, touted as a football genius, he knew the rules...he broke them, he needs to be suspended.

When you hear the words "Patriots" and "suspension" the first name that comes to mind is "Randy Moss."

Who would have thought it might be the coach?

That's good. :lol:

[Him8123]

I say suspend him for 2 games
yank away at least 2 high draft picks
fine him and the organization
make them forfeit the game to the jets

I say do all four thats really harsh and deserving

[pack4to84]

If they give the game to the Jets. Then the Packers last year would have been 9-7 if we would have sent in our tape too. We would have been in the playoff last year. So I can't vote that way this time because of we would have missed out on the playoffs last year. So I say suspend the coach rest of the year and take away there 1st rd draft pick too. The Commish is waiting for the Packers tape from last year to make a decision.

[Freak Out]

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league's decision, I will have further comment."

Ok Bill...

[Cheesehead Craig]

The punishment needs to immediate...not a future draft pick.

He's a smart man, touted as a football genius, he knew the rules...he broke them, he needs to be suspended.



I COMPLETELY disagree. A suspension does nothing while the loss of a high draft pick HURTS. Suspension is for show, draft pick is to deter others from pulling the same crap.
If all they did was suspend the coach, some teams might intentionally get caught, like the Vikings. Taking out Childress can only help them. :P

(Just messing with you Rastak)

[4and12to12and4]

The league won't have the balls to forfeit the game or take back the win. It'll never happen, unfortunately, it's the only thing that is fair, simply because the Jets are the true victims here. What good does it do them if the Patriots give up a LOW draft pick while the Jets are stuck with a bogus loss due to cheating. How bogus. I'd be raising HELL if I were the Jets organization. Last year is last year, nothing can be undone regarding that, but when caught the same week they were handed an important win, it needs to be taken away from them. It's the only fair way to compensate the Jets, who got screwed in all of this.

[Rastak]

The league won't have the balls to forfeit the game or take back the win. It'll never happen, unfortunately, it's the only thing that is fair, simply because the Jets are the true victims here. What good does it do them if the Patriots give up a LOW draft pick while the Jets are stuck with a bogus loss due to cheating. How bogus. I'd be raising HELL if I were the Jets organization. Last year is last year, nothing can be undone regarding that, but when caught the same week they were handed an important win, it needs to be taken away from them. It's the only fair way to compensate the Jets, who got screwed in all of this.

Do you really believe THAT was the reason the Jets lost? I don't buy that. It was pretty much a blowout. I say suspend him for 4 games and yank a first round pick.

[MJZiggy]

Let's go for a real deterrent here. Castrate him.

[Rastak]

Let's go for a real deterrent here. Castrate him.


That would deter everyone from even coaching.....32 resignations the day after.

:shock:

[MJZiggy]

Then the women could coach. We wouldn't be stupid enough to pull bullshit like this.

[Rastak]

Then the women could coach. We wouldn't be stupid enough to pull bullshit like this.


The whole league would be 8-8
to try and be fair to everyone.


:wink:

[4and12to12and4]

Well, we know they've been spying at least all of last year, and now this year, who knows how long it's been going on. If you were just given the other teams playbook, don't you think that could seriously affect the outcome of dozens of plays on both sides of the ball. I mean, half the battle of winning in the NFL is the element of surprise and adjustments during the game. They probably knew what the Jets were gonna do before the Jets did. I do think it could have affected the outcome, big time, and if not, who cares, they cheated, so we'll never know, and the Jets shouldn't have to sit on that loss when the lost to cheaters. Hell, the Chargers lost one of their best players because of a drug that helped him be a little bit stronger and faster for FOUR crucial games. This game needs to be taken from them to send a message. The Jets don't deserve that loss.

[packinpatland]

Then the women could coach. We wouldn't be stupid enough to pull bullshit like this.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Good One!!!!!

[Rastak]

Well, we know they've been spying at least all of last year, and now this year, who knows how long it's been going on. If you were just given the other teams playbook, don't you think that could seriously affect the outcome of dozens of plays on both sides of the ball. I mean, half the battle of winning in the NFL is the element of surprise and adjustments during the game. They probably knew what the Jets were gonna do before the Jets did. I do think it could have affected the outcome, big time, and if not, who cares, they cheated, so we'll never know, and the Jets shouldn't have to sit on that loss when the lost to cheaters. Hell, the Chargers lost one of their best players because of a drug that helped him be a little bit stronger and faster for FOUR crucial games. This game needs to be taken from them to send a message. The Jets don't deserve that loss.


They weren't given the playbook. ESPN radio had a scout on who stated the advance scout for teams is supposed to watch the defensive signals to pick them up the week before they play. I'm pretty sure all teams do it. The Pats just took it a step further and violated an EXPLICIT rule. No videotape.
I agree they are cheaters based on the letter of the law. I thinkthey are jackasses all the way around actually. Belichek calls the Vikings then states if they take his player on waivers he'll claim a Viking. He then puts in claims for both Herron (lb) and Thigpen (qb). They got the LB and they cut him this week. It's bullshit. I hope they nail then to the wall but forfits are actually taking it to far. Hell, take all their picks next year and they can watch the draft.

[4and12to12and4]

The picks are a joke, they will all be in the low twenties, who cares? How does that punish them THIS YEAR when they won a game they cheated in? Something needs to be done to hurt them THIS YEAR. If they can't take the win away, and I know they won't, then get that ghetto clad coach away from the team for at least a quarter of the season.

[Rastak]

The picks are a joke, they will all be in the low twenties, who cares? How does that punish them THIS YEAR when they won a game they cheated in? Something needs to be done to hurt them THIS YEAR. If they can't take the win away, and I know they won't, then get that ghetto clad coach away from the team for at least a quarter of the season.


Joke my ass. You look at every pick available starting at the late twenties and tell me it means nothing. You can rail and wish all you want, it ain't happening.

[oregonpackfan]

Let's go for a real deterrent here. Castrate him.

Oh-oh! I think I'm going to need a bodyguard for the PR gathering in October... :)

[MJZiggy]

Why, OPF, you're not cheating are you? (besides, you're not sitting with me)

[oregonpackfan]

Why, OPF, you're not cheating are you? (besides, you're not sitting with me)

Me cheating? To paraphrase an infamous President, "I did not cheat with that woman!" :lol:

[4and12to12and4]

The picks are a joke, they will all be in the low twenties, who cares? How does that punish them THIS YEAR when they won a game they cheated in? Something needs to be done to hurt them THIS YEAR. If they can't take the win away, and I know they won't, then get that ghetto clad coach away from the team for at least a quarter of the season.


Joke my ass. You look at every pick available starting at the late twenties and tell me it means nothing. You can rail and wish all you want, it ain't happening.

How does that help the Jets? That's my concern. They got screwed.

[Rastak]

The picks are a joke, they will all be in the low twenties, who cares? How does that punish them THIS YEAR when they won a game they cheated in? Something needs to be done to hurt them THIS YEAR. If they can't take the win away, and I know they won't, then get that ghetto clad coach away from the team for at least a quarter of the season.


Joke my ass. You look at every pick available starting at the late twenties and tell me it means nothing. You can rail and wish all you want, it ain't happening.

How does that help the Jets? That's my concern. They got screwed.


Dude, haven't you been paying attention. They've been doing this for years. What makes the Jets so special? If you honestly think they will reverse years of games....then you aren't in the same reality I'm in.


Let me ask you this. Mangini KNEW they were doing this stuff because he worked for them before this gig. Why didn't he report it on the first play? Hmmmm?

[MadtownPacker]

Then the women could coach. We wouldn't be stupid enough to pull bullshit like this.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Good One!!!!!



Then the women could coach. We wouldn't be stupid enough to pull bullshit like this.

The whole league would be 8-8
to try and be fair to everyone.

:wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Even better One!!!!!!

[4and12to12and4]

The picks are a joke, they will all be in the low twenties, who cares? How does that punish them THIS YEAR when they won a game they cheated in? Something needs to be done to hurt them THIS YEAR. If they can't take the win away, and I know they won't, then get that ghetto clad coach away from the team for at least a quarter of the season.


Joke my ass. You look at every pick available starting at the late twenties and tell me it means nothing. You can rail and wish all you want, it ain't happening.

How does that help the Jets? That's my concern. They got screwed.


Dude, haven't you been paying attention. They've been doing this for years. What makes the Jets so special? If you honestly think they will reverse years of games....then you aren't in the same reality I'm in.


Let me ask you this. Mangini KNEW they were doing this stuff because he worked for them before this gig. Why didn't he report it on the first play? Hmmmm?

That is a good point. In fact, maybe that's why Mangini isn't saying shit about all this. I guess I just hate the Patriots, and I'm sick of that organization, and when Moss chose them over us, that was the last straw for me. I want this thing to blow up into a HUGE story and really tarnish the organization. If that makes me evil, so be it. Go Pack.

[digitaldean]

I am of the opinion that Belichick should be suspended at least 4 games w/o pay PLUS the Pats should forfeit the #1 and #2 pick in the 2008 draft.

I heard the notion of decreasing the salary cap for 2008, but that doesn't affect this season, plus the NFLPA might squawk at that.

Heard an interview with Robert Kraft (owner) this morning on CBS Radio. He said that the tumult about this is caused because of jealousy.

Jealousy??!! What an arrogant SOB! It made me laugh later this afternoon that ol' Billy issued the standard I'm sorry (I got caught) apology.

Goodell will lose a lot of standing with the players and the general fan if he is a hard ass with the players, but slaps the wrists of the coaches and owners.

[Rastak]

The picks are a joke, they will all be in the low twenties, who cares? How does that punish them THIS YEAR when they won a game they cheated in? Something needs to be done to hurt them THIS YEAR. If they can't take the win away, and I know they won't, then get that ghetto clad coach away from the team for at least a quarter of the season.


Joke my ass. You look at every pick available starting at the late twenties and tell me it means nothing. You can rail and wish all you want, it ain't happening.

How does that help the Jets? That's my concern. They got screwed.


Dude, haven't you been paying attention. They've been doing this for years. What makes the Jets so special? If you honestly think they will reverse years of games....then you aren't in the same reality I'm in.


Let me ask you this. Mangini KNEW they were doing this stuff because he worked for them before this gig. Why didn't he report it on the first play? Hmmmm?

That is a good point. In fact, maybe that's why Mangini isn't saying shit about all this. I guess I just hate the Patriots, and I'm sick of that organization, and when Moss chose them over us, that was the last straw for me. I want this thing to blow up into a HUGE story and really tarnish the organization. If that makes me evil, so be it. Go Pack.


Nope it makes you a very biased fan! That's ok, what you said makes sense given the thought process you laid out. I don't like them either for a number of reasons and I hope the commish jams it up their keister.

[b bulldog]

Goodell is in a tight spot. If it were up to me, I'd suspend BB for 4 games, fine him mucho dollars and make the Pats give up their 2 and 3rd rounders.

[MadtownPacker]

Let me ask you this. Mangini KNEW they were doing this stuff because he worked for them before this gig. Why didn't he report it on the first play? Hmmmm?Cuz he was too busy talking to his undercover camera guys? :lol:

I agree no way will records be changed. If you do that you would have to also take away other losses too. The only way to deal with it is heavy punishment to the coach and team. A suspension and draft picks is gonna have to work.

The Commish should make coach belicheat burn his precious, raggedy ass hoody sweater in a public ceremony.

[4and12to12and4]

Let me ask you this. Mangini KNEW they were doing this stuff because he worked for them before this gig. Why didn't he report it on the first play? Hmmmm?Cuz he was too busy talking to his undercover camera guys? :lol:

I agree no way will records be changed. If you do that you would have to also take away other losses too. The only way to deal with it is heavy punishment to the coach and team. A suspension and draft picks is gonna have to work.

The Commish should make coach belicheat burn his precious, raggedy ass hoody sweater in a public ceremony.


:worship:

[MJZiggy]

Favre's view on it (and Harris, Strahan and McCarthy:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20750641/

[4and12to12and4]

Wow, this is awesome. This is really turning into a huge scandalous story. Just what I was hoping. I love it when teams I hate do stupid things. :wink:

[pack4to84]

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/09/11/like-jets-lions-and-packers-bills-accuse-patriots-of-stealing/
Lions and Bills add to the list of accusing Pats of stealing signs.

[b bulldog]

Every team that has played them in the last four or five years should be put on this list.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Let me ask you this. Mangini KNEW they were doing this stuff because he worked for them before this gig. Why didn't he report it on the first play? Hmmmm?

He played him 3 times last year. Beat him in the first game. Lost in the 2nd game. Was that close or not? Got demolished in the third game in the playoffs. Maybe he thought he and Bill had an understanding about it, but got suspicious based on that last game? Then, he wasn't able to find the culprit until later in the game.

Bob Harlan said the Packers had been told about this guy, but weren't able to find him and escort him off the sideline until the 2nd quarter.

Who knows. The intrigue.
:D

[packinpatland]

Wouldn't you think the Patriots would have been smarter, and not used the same guy?? :roll:

[BallHawk]

So I'm just assuming that every team wants to be part of the "We Lost Unfairly to the Patriots" club.

God, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if the New York Yankees joined the mix.

[pack4to84]

So I'm just assuming that every team wants to be part of the "We Lost Unfairly to the Patriots" club.

God, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if the New York Yankees joined the mix.
Thats why they can't give the Jets the win. No way now. Suspend BB for the season. That would hurt the Pats more then anything right now.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The punishment needs to immediate...not a future draft pick.

Draft pick would be a painful punishment.

[Harlan Huckleby]

This is really turning into a huge scandalous story.

I think its gonna be remembered as a giant scandal. It involves the entire management of a team. It smells really bad, people are cynical now about what Patriots have accomplished. Big story.

[Scott Campbell]

\Goodell will lose a lot of standing with the players and the general fan if he is a hard ass with the players, but slaps the wrists of the coaches and owners.



That is an excellent point. Goodell set himself up for having to take a very strong action here.

[Badgerinmaine]

Madtown Packer wrote:
The Commish should make coach belicheat burn his precious, raggedy ass hoody sweater in a public ceremony.
[/quote]
He'd just go out to the nearest Salvation Army store and buy a new one. :P

[cpk1994]

The punishment needs to immediate...not a future draft pick.

Draft pick would be a painful punishment.
Yeah, just ask the Minnesota Timberwolves.

[packinpatland]

The punishment needs to immediate...not a future draft pick.

Draft pick would be a painful punishment.

The way the Patriots 'wheel and deal' their picks, maybe not.

[MJZiggy]

If they took all their draft picks it would, but I'd be happy with the first two and a nice long mental health break for BB.

[Packers4Ever]

Just saw on ESPN that BB is to visit them

tomorrow, 12 Noon, that's Central time...

per the Mike and Mike show.

[KYPack]

The Pats have 5 first day picks next year, including 2 #1's.

Most observers think NE will lose at least a #2 pick.

Some have speculated they will lose a 1 & a 2.

I think the forfeit of a #2 will slow all the teams down on this espionage.

[The Leaper]

The Pats should not be able to use the headsets to relay plays into the QB for the rest of the year. Let's see Billy try to win when the opposing defenses can see his signs.

[Noodle]

I've been hearing that loss of high draft picks (1s and 2s) is unlikely because it would deprive players picked in those rounds of the big paychecks, so the Union would not be happy.

So the only recourse is to suspend the guy. Half the season on the beach would be about right, especially since this came after the Commish apparently emphasized to the lteams before the season started that cheating of any kind was not going to be tolerated. The Pats basically said, Whatever.

I don't take that from my teenager. The Commish shouldn't take that from Mr. Genius.

[packinpatland]

I go on record of nearly never agreeing with anything Dr. Z writes, on this issue I'll make an exception. :wink:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/09/13/cheating/index.html

[Rastak]

The punishment needs to immediate...not a future draft pick.

Draft pick would be a painful punishment.
Yeah, just ask the Minnesota Timberwolves.


Ummm, try 5 of them. 1 isn't shit.

[GrnBay007]

I didn't read this entire thread yet........damn work! :P

I'm not sure if this was mentioned by anyone. But one thing I think would be an immediate sanction AND should be a natural consequence in this situation is they get a forfeit or Loss for the game in which the cheating was actually confirmed.......Jets get a win.

That's just a start. I do believe there should be more sanctions.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think it should be treated like any other cheating scandal: find out exactly who was involved. Suspend everyone in the Pats organization who participated for 4 games. I don't care if they have to compete with their practice squad players, led by the strength and conditioning coach.

[green_bowl_packer]

GOODELL HAS SPOKEN!!!


NEW YORK - New England coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for videotaping an opponent's offensive and defensive signals.
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Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up next year's first-round draft choice if it reaches the playoffs and second- and third-round picks if it doesn't.

"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," Goodell said in a letter to the Patriots.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070914/ap_on_sp_fo_ne/fbn_nfl_spying_45;_ylt=AgLqjOwvLgHHBoBnU.lljssE1vA I[url]

[Harlan Huckleby]

ahhhh, what bullshit. How can guys get caught cheating and not get suspended for it?


disgusting.


A player smokes a joint, and he's not allowed to show his face for 4 weeks.

But run an outrageous cheating scheme that tarnishes the integrity of the game - see ya Sunday, coach!

[Lurker64]

Not enough.

[RashanGary]

I think what happened was pretty fair. I would have rather seen a 1st and 2nd but it is what it is I guess.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think what happened was pretty fair. I would have rather seen a 1st and 2nd but it is what it is I guess.

How does Belichek show-up on the sideline as a representative of the NFL?

It makes a statement: you don't pay a personal price for cheating if you are high up enough in status. The commissioner protected one of his boys.

If a player had orchestrated the cheating somehow, without the knowlege of his coach, he would be out of the league for a year.

[Rastak]

I think what happened was pretty fair. I would have rather seen a 1st and 2nd but it is what it is I guess.

How does Belichek show-up on the sideline as a representative of the NFL?

It makes a statement: you don't pay a personal price for cheating if you are high up enough in status. The commissioner protected one of his boys.

If a player had orchestrated the cheating somehow, without the knowlege of his coach, he would be out of the league for a year.

Yea, you are probably right. That draft pick (or picks) will sting....and if they keep this stuff up the sledage hammer will come down. I think the 1st round pick should have been unconditional.

[RashanGary]

I see your point, HH. A suspension probably would have been more consistant.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think what happened was pretty fair. I would have rather seen a 1st and 2nd but it is what it is I guess.

I think the punishment to the organization is reasonably fair.

but Belichek, personally, should have paid a stiff price. And the coaches who went along with it should be named and fined.

[packinpatland]

There's no immediate penalty. What's $500,000 to someone who makes millions?

None of this penalty will affect THIS season.
Still think he should have been suspended.

[MJZiggy]

I think what happened was pretty fair. I would have rather seen a 1st and 2nd but it is what it is I guess.

I think the punishment to the organization is reasonably fair.

but Belichek, personally, should have paid a stiff price. And the coaches who went along with it should be named and fined.

I agree.

[RashanGary]

I'm coming around to the suspension thing. Seems lik e BB got off pretty easy, esspecially in light of guys like Koren Robinson who get year suspensions for a couple DUI's.

[Rastak]

I'm coming around to the suspension thing. Seems lik e BB got off pretty easy, esspecially in light of guys like Koren Robinson who get year suspensions for a couple DUI's.


He was on his thrid strike so I'm guessing a couple of DUI's isn't really acurate at all.

[Kiwon]

Credit an assist to Bob Harlan and the Packers for nailing the camera guy last year and quietly helping to document/verify the Pats practice.

IMHO, this shows that the Packers organization has some class and plays by the rules.

Cheaters should always be exposed whether in academia, business, sports or politics. Set the rules and enforce them. Goodell is off to a good start so far, but we'll see how much support he really has when the players union and some owners start to push back when he steps on their toes.

[Rastak]

Credit an assist to Bob Harlan and the Packers for nailing the camera guy last year and quietly helping to document/verify the Pats practice.

IMHO, this shows that the Packers organization has some class and plays by the rules.

Cheaters should always be exposed whether in academia, business, sports or politics. Set the rules and enforce them. Goodell is off to a good start so far, but we'll see how much support he really has when the players union and some owners start to push back when he steps on their toes.


My big question is why they didn't file a complaint and by not doing so let them continue this practice.

[packinpatland]

The whole Patriot organization got off too easy.
Goodwell had to be aware of situations like this also:


Last year the Lions played the Patriots in Foxboro. At one point their coach, Rod Marinelli, phoned up to the press box, "There's a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?" A Lions' employee called the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again. The same process was repeated and he was asked to stop again. Now that's dedication.

"You don't really know for sure," Marinelli said. "I mean you don't know whether he might be doing something for NFL Films or a coaches' show or whatever."

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, was talking to Bengals' coach Marvin Lewis at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," Lewis said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too.

This taken from Dr. Z's article today.

[KYPack]

I heard the Marvin Lewis story today on Cincy sports talk radio. The stories have been drifting out that this shit has been going on for years. In addition to headsets "failing", there have been instances of jammed radio signals and other kinds of subterfuge. One of the problems has been that teams have complained, but the charges were tough to prove. How do you prove your QB's radio has been jammed?

Thats why the videotaping scheme was key. That can be proved and caught red handed. BB's cred is severely damaged, but he might have the goods to win it all.

If he does, he should be made to "retire".

[packinpatland]

An exerpt from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20752339/

I dislike this team, from the top down.


One thing that isn’t likely to change is the arrogance of the Patriots’ organization. That begins at the top with Robert Kraft, chairman and CEO of the franchise. The team may belong to all of New England but Kraft and his son, Jonathan, weren’t afraid to use the state of Connecticut when the Patriots needed a new stadium. The Krafts forged a deal with former Connecticut Gov. John Rowland and promised to move the team to Hartford if a new downtown stadium was built. It was nothing more than a way to gain leverage in Massachusetts and the Patriots instead got Gillette Stadium and stayed in Foxborough. Rowland, so busy with his own cheating of the Connecticut taxpayers that he eventually went to prison, was used by the Krafts and made to look like a fool.

Just another example of the way business is done in the NFL.

And just another example of how the Patriots will do anything to get what they want.

[esoxx]

All the more reason why I'm happy as hell this is the team the Pack beat in Super Bowl XXXI. Kraft can suck that one big time.

They should have a dispersal draft of the Patriots 53 man roster after the season and be made to start over.

Clear the decks.

Drain the swamp.

Systematic cheatin' bastards..

[Cheesehead Craig]

Credit an assist to Bob Harlan and the Packers for nailing the camera guy last year and quietly helping to document/verify the Pats practice.

IMHO, this shows that the Packers organization has some class and plays by the rules.

Cheaters should always be exposed whether in academia, business, sports or politics. Set the rules and enforce them. Goodell is off to a good start so far, but we'll see how much support he really has when the players union and some owners start to push back when he steps on their toes.


My big question is why they didn't file a complaint and by not doing so let them continue this practice.
Here's my thoughts on why other teams didn't file complaints:

The owners still have to deal with the Patriots on the high level end, the politics of the NFL. If you start accusing them of cheating, you start burning bridges and suddenly you have a powerful, pissed off owner out to block anything you want to do. You'll never be able to trade with him and likely that owner starts bad-mouthing you to other owners he's good friends with and thus, instead of pissing off 1 guy, you now have 4-5 enemies.

Plus, unless you have some hard evidence, the owners would be going out on a big limb and if they are found to be crying wolf, well, you know how that story ends.

It's a huge risk the clubs would take when doing something like this. The Jets and Pats hate each other so the Jets went for broke to take down their bitter rival. They were the perfect team to do it.

Also, think about how the team would look if they did cry "cheater". They look like whiners and in the macho NFL land, that's a big hit to the pride of the players that they won't take. They would rather try and beat the cheating straight up to prove that they can overcome it, rather than cry foul.

Just my thoughts.

[KYPack]

The talk radio climate is Cincy is nasty. The locals (not Packer fan knowlegeable, but who is?) are restless. They all want a more severe penalty for Bill B. Most are screaming for a '07 suspension and multiple draft picks, including the #1.

I must be mellowing. I thought the #1 (not conditional, BTW) was sufficient. Seems this has really struck a nerve & AFC fans are even more up in arms than we Pack Backers.

[Bretsky]

The talk radio climate is Cincy is nasty. The locals (not Packer fan knowlegeable, but who is?) are restless. They all want a more severe penalty for Bill B. Most are screaming for a '07 suspension and multiple draft picks, including the #1.

I must be mellowing. I thought the #1 (not conditional, BTW) was sufficient. Seems this has really struck a nerve & AFC fans are even more up in arms than we Pack Backers.

Completely agree about the #1 pick being plenty to pay for; I just don't get it I guess. Teams try to steal each other's signals all the time and border on cheating if they don't do it. That's why the teams are not in much of an uproar while the fans go crazy. But he got caught.

[wist43]

Belicheck and the Pats got off easy... I hate cheating. It's one thing to skirt the rules to your advantage, as long as you stay on the right side of the law, but this is out right cheating.

I would have suspended Belicheck for a full calendar year, and stripped the Patriots of all of the '08 draft choices - including the one they acquired from the 49'ers.

Goodell wimped out.

[Badgerinmaine]

I heard the Marvin Lewis story today on Cincy sports talk radio. The stories have been drifting out that this shit has been going on for years. In addition to headsets "failing", there have been instances of jammed radio signals and other kinds of subterfuge. One of the problems has been that teams have complained, but the charges were tough to prove. How do you prove your QB's radio has been jammed?

Thats why the videotaping scheme was key. That can be proved and caught red handed. BB's cred is severely damaged, but he might have the goods to win it all.

If he does, he should be made to "retire".

I remember an incident years ago about headsets--I think it might have been at Milwaukee when the Packers still played some home games at County Stadium, but I'm not certain. Anyway, the road team's headsets malfunctioned, and the referees told the home team they had to give up their headsets until the other team's were functional. The announcers said at the time that this was an NFL rule that the home team had to do this in this type of case. So, if the Millen and Lewis stories are true, is this rule no longer in effect, or was it just something the refs did on their own? In my opinion, such a rule would make sense because it would ensure no gain for hte home team in messing with the equipment of the visitors.

[Kiwon]

The talk radio climate is Cincy is nasty. The locals (not Packer fan knowlegeable, but who is?) are restless. They all want a more severe penalty for Bill B. Most are screaming for a '07 suspension and multiple draft picks, including the #1.

I must be mellowing. I thought the #1 (not conditional, BTW) was sufficient. Seems this has really struck a nerve & AFC fans are even more up in arms than we Pack Backers.

Completely agree about the #1 pick being plenty to pay for; I just don't get it I guess. Teams try to steal each other's signals all the time and border on cheating if they don't do it. That's why the teams are not in much of an uproar while the fans go crazy. But he got caught.

I'm a bit more in the Bretsky camp on this one.

The news cycle is still early and we will not get the full story until some investigative reporting is done but the punishment relates to what they did in one game - the Jets game. There might have been allegations before, but now there is proof and punishment is in order.

Also, what's the big difference between a guy on the sidelines with a video camera and a guy sitting 20 feet behind him with a good pair of binoculars and a cell phone? I must be missing something here. What actually was their set-up?

The punishment is significant because it damages the reputation of Belichek as this genius in the same league as Bill Walsh. The spillover on the assistant coaches and former assistant coaches who are now head coaches is also important. It's like Fred Thompson's line from the Watergate hearings....."What did you know and when did you know it?" Has there been a widespread cheating scheme going on for years that everyone kept mum about?

It’s also a hit to the Patriots organization. They lose draft picks and they leave themselves open to all kinds of accusations of unfair play. They have had absolutely remarkable success and maybe we now know one key reason for it. Don’t you think that Peyton Manning has to be wondering if they were cheating during the big games they played and that New England usually won?

I assume that if further dirt turns up that Goodell can always revise and add to the severity of his penalties. However, as it stands right now, the penalties are significant for cheating in one game.

[Zool]

This story can go away now.

If it was the Browns or Cardinals that got busted this would barely be a ripple.

[packinpatland]

This story can go away now.

If it was the Browns or Cardinals that got busted this would barely be a ripple.

You are right, but the Browns and the Cardinals didn't win all those Super Bowls.

[Partial]

This story can go away now.

If it was the Browns or Cardinals that got busted this would barely be a ripple.

I have a hunch this is a way bigger deal than you'd think. Hines Ward thinks they were cheating back to 2002. That's BS.

[Zool]

This story can go away now.

If it was the Browns or Cardinals that got busted this would barely be a ripple.

I have a hunch this is a way bigger deal than you'd think. Hines Ward thinks they were cheating back to 2002. That's BS.

Watch a baseball game sometime. When you're at the game, watch a guy on second base staring down the catcher and making a hand gesture of some sort.

The Pats got caught. I'm pretty damned sure they aren't the only team doing this, they are just dumb enough to have gotten caught. Twice. Where was the uproar after the Packers game?

On ESPN they brought up a good point. Mangini might br frowned upon in NFL circles now for being a whistle blower.

[Partial]

This story can go away now.

If it was the Browns or Cardinals that got busted this would barely be a ripple.

I have a hunch this is a way bigger deal than you'd think. Hines Ward thinks they were cheating back to 2002. That's BS.

Watch a baseball game sometime. When you're at the game, watch a guy on second base staring down the catcher and making a hand gesture of some sort.

The Pats got caught. I'm pretty damned sure they aren't the only team doing this, they are just dumb enough to have gotten caught. Twice. Where was the uproar after the Packers game?

On ESPN they brought up a good point. Mangini might br frowned upon in NFL circles now for being a whistle blower.

Intercepting a signal is not cheating, though. It's also not on the same level of video taping all the calls so you can memorize them later. They're not even in the same ball park when it comes to cheating.

If more than one team is doing this than good, they should be found out and punished as well. Better Mangini look bad than MM.

The uproar after the Packer game was probably silenced by the NFL to do some further research on the matter.

How can you say this isn't a big deal? The latest dynasty is the NFL has been proven these past couple of weeks to be corrupt and a slew of cheaters. First HGH (which more of them do than Rodney Harrison, you can take that to the bank), to stealing signs and taping them for even further review and further cheating.

[SkinBasket]

This story can go away now.

If it was the Browns or Cardinals that got busted this would barely be a ripple.

I have a hunch this is a way bigger deal than you'd think. Hines Ward thinks they were cheating back to 2002. That's BS.

Watch a baseball game sometime. When you're at the game, watch a guy on second base staring down the catcher and making a hand gesture of some sort.

The Pats got caught. I'm pretty damned sure they aren't the only team doing this, they are just dumb enough to have gotten caught. Twice. Where was the uproar after the Packers game?

On ESPN they brought up a good point. Mangini might br frowned upon in NFL circles now for being a whistle blower.

A) Baseball players aren't on second base using electronic scoping equipment to pick up hand signs.

B) Sign stealing, when successful, in baseball has a much smaller effect on the game.

C) Mangini might be frowned upon by some, but there seem to be a whole lot of grateful players speaking out about it the past couple days. Players that might like to play for a coach who's willing to put his own ass out there and stand up to a cheat who sees himself as an NFL god in bum's clothing.

[Zool]

This story can go away now.

If it was the Browns or Cardinals that got busted this would barely be a ripple.

I have a hunch this is a way bigger deal than you'd think. Hines Ward thinks they were cheating back to 2002. That's BS.

Watch a baseball game sometime. When you're at the game, watch a guy on second base staring down the catcher and making a hand gesture of some sort.

The Pats got caught. I'm pretty damned sure they aren't the only team doing this, they are just dumb enough to have gotten caught. Twice. Where was the uproar after the Packers game?

On ESPN they brought up a good point. Mangini might br frowned upon in NFL circles now for being a whistle blower.

Intercepting a signal is not cheating, though. It's also not on the same level of video taping all the calls so you can memorize them later. They're not even in the same ball park when it comes to cheating.

If more than one team is doing this than good, they should be found out and punished as well. Better Mangini look bad than MM.

The uproar after the Packer game was probably silenced by the NFL to do some further research on the matter.

How can you say this isn't a big deal? The latest dynasty is the NFL has been proven these past couple of weeks to be corrupt and a slew of cheaters. First HGH (which more of them do than Rodney Harrison, you can take that to the bank), to stealing signs and taping them for even further review and further cheating.

How exactly do you think they know what the signals are if they dont memorize them. They guess? I just get tired of the overreactions i guess. This is sports for cripes sake. Its not life and death stuff.

[Zool]

A) Baseball players aren't on second base using electronic scoping equipment to pick up hand signs.

Good point. You have to rely on a split second judgement by the guy on base.

B) Sign stealing, when successful, in baseball has a much smaller effect on the game.

Completely disagree. If any sport can hinge on 1 moment in a game its baseball. A stolen signal in the 9th with 2 on resulting in a HR would seem pretty signifigant.

C) Mangini might be frowned upon by some, but there seem to be a whole lot of grateful players speaking out about it the past couple days. Players that might like to play for a coach who's willing to put his own ass out there and stand up to a cheat who sees himself as an NFL god in bum's clothing.

I never said he should be frowned upon, I was just bringing up the point. I think Bellichek is a complete asshole, but I've always thought that. This just confirms it. If he was still coaching the Browns I would think the same thing. If he was coaching the Browns we wouldnt be debating this. Thats my point. The over reactions.

[SkinBasket]

A) Baseball players aren't on second base using electronic scoping equipment to pick up hand signs.

Good point. You have to rely on a split second judgement by the guy on base.



You know, after reading this, something else comes to mind that I think leads to this bothering me more than any attempt at cheating in baseball. In baseball, it's the players trying to cheat - not some dufus with a camera on the sideline. I think there's a big difference there - at least in my mind, that makes the cases completely different. Players trying to gain an advantage on each other by stealing signs is still confined to the actual participants in the game and is still, in some strange way - sporting, because they're still using their own wits, reflexes, and wile - not hiring some third party to do it for them.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Just terrible judgement by Goodwin.

People are caught-up on whether a first round draft pick is enough punishment. This is a red herring. Losing a draft pick is arguably a serious punishment, people can argue this point either way.

WHAT MATTERS IS THE SYMBOLISM OF THE PUNISHMENT. The type of punishment, not the amount.

By allowing Bellichek to show-up on the sideline this weekend, the NFL is saying that it was no big deal. Move on. They are trying to sweep the stink under the carpet.

There already is technology to remotely listen-in on the conversations of offensive huddles. And I would guess intercepting the QB radio signals is not so hard. There is NO END to the clever cheating that will be available in the future. The commisioner needed to draw a line in the sand, no maas.

Our resident mortgage banker argues that it's no big deal, everybody does a little cheating. I'm only operating on a hunch, but I've alerted the Wisconsin Department of Financial Instutions. They agree that a little look-see at the paper trail of our friend might be fruitful.

[Scott Campbell]

I think I've changed my mind. I compared it to stealing signals, but I don't think the two are similar anymore.

Bill should have been suspended for a handful of games.

[b bulldog]

I think 4 games should have been the number

[Joemailman]

I expect Goodell to take steps to make sure this doesn't happen again. However, I don't expect the league to do a thorough investigation into how long the Pats have been doing this, because they are afraid of what they may find out. Goodell doesn't want to deal with the issue of whether the Pat's 3 Super Bowl titles are legitimate.

I see where both Belichick and Kraft have apologized to their fans for this incident.

Their fans?! How about apologizing to the fans of the teams who didn't have a fair chance at winning because Belichick was cheating.

[Harlan Huckleby]

However, I don't expect the league to do a thorough investigation into how long the Pats have been doing this, because they are afraid of what they may find out.

Right on. They are leaving things ambiguous. Belisleaze has been permitted to say, "I apologize for the pain I've caused. But of course we didn't actually cheat." Yet they lose a draft pick for "not actually cheating"!? The punishment is calculated to be just enough to appease the indignant public and sports analysts.

Case closed.

[the_idle_threat]

By allowing Bellichek to show-up on the sideline this weekend, the NFL is saying that it was no big deal. Move on.

Good call by the NFL.

People are overreacting to a ridiculous degree. See Zool's avatar.

But I guess it's par for the course in this modern media world where national news stories are regularly blown way out fo proportion, overreacted to, and forgotton a week or two later.

This story gets its legs from the pent-up frustration people seem to have for the front-running three-time Super Bowl champions and their "genius" coach. Understandable human nature I guess, but it doesn't make this story an actual outrage. People are bringing up totally unrelated things like the coach's choice of clothing (who friggin cares???) and the owner's assholery in negotiating a new stadium deal (this is not unique to him---it's standard operating procedure for sports team owners seeking a new stadium).

If the team's signals could be filmed from the opposing team's sideline, they were there to be seen. There's only a marginal difference between (1) watching the other sideline to pick up signals and (2) filming it.

Is it cool? No. Sporting? No. An outrage? Not a chance.

The NFL didn't approve, and they levied a stiff penalty. Not stiff enough to appease those who really don't like the Patriots, their coach and their success, and wanted the penalty to incorporate this bias, but plenty stiff enough to discourage the practice from continuing. Does anybody here---thinking rationally---believe a team wants to lose a #1 draft choice?

Time to move on, folks. There's nothing more to see here.

[esoxx]

Stinkin' Patriots.

I still like my dispersal draft idea. :P

[the_idle_threat]

I still like my dispersal draft idea. :P

It was definitely an intrguing thought. How pissed would we be though if the stinkin' Bears ended up with Brady? :shock: :lol:

[Harlan Huckleby]

If the team's signals could be filmed from the opposing team's sideline, they were there to be seen. There's only a marginal difference between (1) watching the other sideline to pick up signals and (2) filming it.

We don't know exactly what was going on, how or when they used the information. Its logical to assume that the Pats were getting some benefit from filming the signals or they wouldn't have taken the risk.

An investigation should have been done, and the truth exposed to the public.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Some have said that they just taped it to use later and that it offered not benefit to the game in progress, but that makes no sense. How would you explain them having it on the Packers sideline last year? They will not play the Packers again until 2010. What would they have been scouting? It OBVIOUSLY provided some type of benefit to them.

[GrnBay007]

Does anybody here---thinking rationally---believe a team wants to lose a #1 draft choice?


TT wouldn't care. But you best not be touching his 6th and 7th round picks!!!!!! :evil:

[the_idle_threat]

Does anybody here---thinking rationally---believe a team wants to lose a #1 draft choice?


TT wouldn't care. But you best not be touching his 6th and 7th round picks!!!!!! :evil:

I dunno, 007. I get the impression TT would rather give up one of his balls rather than a 1st round draft pick. Just a hunch. :P

[Kiwon]

Does anybody here---thinking rationally---believe a team wants to lose a #1 draft choice?


TT wouldn't care. But you best not be touching his 6th and 7th round picks!!!!!! :evil:

:D :D :D

[GrnBay007]

See Idle? Kiwon caught my lil joke. 8-)