Has McCarthy Corraled The Gunslinger?

[son of a vic]

Last Sunday Favre played his best game in three to four years. He took care of the ball, and did not throw caution to the wind by throwing risky passes into tight spots. Hopefully this is a trend, not just an abboration.
Maybe the fact that he doesn't have the big weapons, has actually made him better. He has to be patient now, because he knows there isn't a big play threat on the field. Or maybe, he has more confidence in the defense. Whatever the reason, It's great to see.
Nice job, Brett, keep up the good work. It was fun watching him play the way he is capable of.

Maybe Mike McCarthy will prolong Favre's career, and make his last couple of years productive ones.

[BlueBrewer]

I don't think he was corralled as much as that was what the defense was giving them. He still took his chances down the field and connected on one to Jones and got a flag with Martin. Keep in mind that NYG defense is atrocious and even the sideline announcers were saying they were lifeless on the sidelines. I don't mean to take anything away from Favre's performance because he looked great. I think that they are adding the chemistry that they were lacking early on and that is helping quite a bit. Also I think MM should be commended for his Halftime adjustments.

[Packnut]

It's really very simple. QB has time to throw ball (like against the G-men), QB completes lots of passes and looks good. QB gets pounded (like against Philly) and QB look's like crap. No mystery to it..........

[Joemailman]

MM is showing Favre more respect by allowing him to change plays at the line than Sherman and Rossley ever did. He is being rewarded with better decision making. On both of Wynn's TD runs Sunday, a pass play was called but Favre switched to running plays based on what he saw in the defense. In the past, Favre might have been forced to attempt a pass into tight coverage instead of switching the play. Favre has probably seen more different defensive alignments than any player in the history of the game. It would be foolish not to take advantage of that knowledge. MM is no fool.

[Packnut]

MM is showing Favre more respect by allowing him to change plays at the line than Sherman and Rossley ever did. He is being rewarded with better decision making. On both of Wynn's TD runs Sunday, a pass play was called but Favre switched to running plays based on what he saw in the defense. In the past, Favre might have been forced to attempt a pass into tight coverage instead of switching the play. Favre has probably seen more different defensive alignments than any player in the history of the game. It would be foolish not to take advantage of that knowledge. MM is no fool.

Excellent point. I often wondered why no one took advantage of Favre's experience. Dungy does it with Manning and it's proven to give the advantage to the offense.

[Deputy Nutz]

Taking a chance does not mean throwing a long pass down the sideline, in fact that is a low risk pass because the sideline is right there, taking a chance is scrambling in the pocket, and then seeing a #80 in the middle of the field and trying to bullet one into him when defenders are buzzing around all over the place.

[green_bowl_packer]

One of the most impressive moments of the game Sunday for me was "I think this was in the forth quarter" when we were in Eagles territory Favre went through his first read, second read, third read, and maybe even his forth and then proceeded to chuck the ball out of bounds. That hardly ever happens.

[CaliforniaCheez]

The concept is baloney. In 2005 Brett and Donald were all the Packers had as offensive weapons. Remember how many RB's started for the Packers??

Back in the 70's all the Bears had was Walter Payton and they slammed him into the line repeatedly for 2-3 yards a play. Did that make Walter a back RB?

Brett plays to win. Having a good teammates to rely on is the difference.
The Packers have the best defense in 10 years. The Packers can outscore the other team without Brett attempting to outscore the other team.

Having Bubba upgrade his game, adding Jones, and experience to other players has also helped.

[fan4life]

MM is showing Favre more respect by allowing him to change plays at the line than Sherman and Rossley ever did. He is being rewarded with better decision making. On both of Wynn's TD runs Sunday, a pass play was called but Favre switched to running plays based on what he saw in the defense. In the past, Favre might have been forced to attempt a pass into tight coverage instead of switching the play. Favre has probably seen more different defensive alignments than any player in the history of the game. It would be foolish not to take advantage of that knowledge. MM is no fool. Exactly!

[ND72]

I donno if it's been mentioned, but it has a lot to do with the belief Favre has in McCarthy as well. the more "used" to Holmgren Farve got, the better he was. Favre totally believed in Sherman, and even though in Sherman's final year Favre tossed a ton of INT's, it had a lot to do with out team at that time. Which I think does here as well. I think Favre likes what he has in Driver, eventually Jennings, Jones, Martin, Franks, & Lee, and even more so when K-Rob makes a return. I'd go 5 wide a ton with Driver, Jones, Jennings, K-Rob, & Martin.

[The Shadow]

A McCarthy-corralled Favre is obviously a much better player and a relief.
I much prefer wins over the gunslinger rah rah antics that have led to many losses that should have been wins in the past.
Kudos to McCarthy.

[PackerBlues]

It's really very simple. QB has time to throw ball (like against the G-men), QB completes lots of passes and looks good. QB gets pounded (like against Philly) and QB look's like crap. No mystery to it..........

Exactly!!!! Favre plays with what he has to play with. When we didnt have much of a defense, he tried to win games by playing the gunslinger. Now that we have a good Defense, Favre manages the Offense like the professional that he is. As long as the Defense and Special Teams does their part, and the O-line gives Brett protection, he is going to look good. When everything else falls apart around him..........

[Pacopete4]

what a dumb thread.. you are never gonna "corral" favre... hes still thrown 2 picks in the first two games which is about his average in his normal seasons. People are making too big of a deal out of his INT's from the 2005 and 2006 seasons... Favres always thrown INT's, infact I think his best games are the 275+ yards with 2-3 tds and 1 int... for some reason thats how i'll always remember the guy... when u play as long, and thrown the ball as many times... INT's are gonna happen... get over it

the only difference is for the first two games, hes not throwing a pick when we cant have one.. thats the only difference in his play and i thank him for that

[son of a vic]

Why all the thread bashing? If you can't see the difference in Favre this year, compared to the last few seasons then you are not paying attention. Watch the games before you get liquored up, that might help.

[son of a vic]

Dammit.

[Deputy Nutz]

what a dumb thread.. you are never gonna "corral" favre... hes still thrown 2 picks in the first two games which is about his average in his normal seasons. People are making too big of a deal out of his INT's from the 2005 and 2006 seasons... Favres always thrown INT's, infact I think his best games are the 275+ yards with 2-3 tds and 1 int... for some reason thats how i'll always remember the guy... when u play as long, and thrown the ball as many times... INT's are gonna happen... get over it

the only difference is for the first two games, hes not throwing a pick when we cant have one.. thats the only difference in his play and i thank him for that

Well INT don't tell the whole story on whether or not Favre is playing well, or playing within the system McCarthy has created. Favre's INT last Sunday was caused by Donald Driver losing focus on the ball when a defenders hand shot in front of him. Favre threw a great ball and Drive set it up in the air like a fucking volleyball.

[son of a vic]

memo to "Pacopetey" My concept is prime rib, and your opinion is pathetically pointless.

[The Shadow]

One of the most impressive moments of the game Sunday for me was "I think this was in the forth quarter" when we were in Eagles territory Favre went through his first read, second read, third read, and maybe even his forth and then proceeded to chuck the ball out of bounds. That hardly ever happens.

Noticed the same thing, and was impressed.
McCarthy has throttled #4 down and the result is a 2-0 start.
I only hope the trend continues.

[woodbuck27]

It's really very simple. QB has time to throw ball (like against the G-men), QB completes lots of passes and looks good. QB gets pounded (like against Philly) and QB look's like crap. No mystery to it..........

Yup. Favre didn't look really terrific in the first half but the half changed something.

In the first half the OL was falling on Favre. He couldn't get set thus find any rhythm. It appeared to me that he was frustrated.

The OL got it done right in the second half and gave Favre a break. Rhythm . . reminds me of the Johnny Cash song.

I also agree that Mike McCarthy and Favre have established a positive overall relationship but that had to be based in respect for Favre the veteren and competive QB that hates to lose. MM knows his best chance for a win is in Favre by a long shot. He's a clear leader on our team and there has to be give and take.

A lot of the pressure is on Favre and MM and they must be on the same page.

Favre is tossing the ball away it seems more now.That is good and demonstrates to me that MM has positively influenced Brett Favre. He still makes the unbelievable happen. He has grown into more patience.

Favre had to change his game to play out his contract.

Play smarter.

[the_idle_threat]

Favre was known to be at odds with Sherman's OC---Tom Rossley. I wonder how much that affected his performance, especially in the 4-12 year. Seems like Favre has more respect for McCarthy.

[woodbuck27]

Favre was known to be at odds with Sherman's OC---Tom Rossley. I wonder how much that affected his performance, especially in the 4-12 year. Seems like Favre has more respect for McCarthy.

Favre used to always sit by himself and mull over the play book when things were on sour mode.

He is on the sidelines more with MM. More with the other players as well.

He may be more determined to demonstrate and have more real fun. :)

[son of a vic]

Sunday will be the final exam on his patience and decision making. This is one of the top five defenses in the NFL. I know this is stating thee obvious, but what I'm getting at is that Favre doesn't have to throw 3 TD's and pass for 300 yards, to have a GOOD game. Take care of the rock, and we have a shot at 3-0.

[cpk1994]

Favre was known to be at odds with Sherman's OC---Tom Rossley. I wonder how much that affected his performance, especially in the 4-12 year. Seems like Favre has more respect for McCarthy.Rossley seemed tp part of the problem. The other was Shermans's refusal to do anything about Brett's mistakes, instead preferring to make excuses like, "Brett's thumb is injured", "The ball slipped out of his hands", etc.

[MJZiggy]

Well, I'd give him a little leeway when he's got a broken thumb, but it wasn't broken the whole time Sherman coached him. Nice that he has some accountability now.

[son of a vic]

Sunday will be the final exam on his patience and decision making. This is one of the top five defenses in the NFL. I know this is stating thee obvious, but what I'm getting at is that Favre doesn't have to throw 3 TD's and pass for 300 yards, to have a GOOD game. Take care of the rock, and we have a shot at 3-0.


Mr. Favre, you may pick up your diploma in Mike's office.

[Pacopete4]

weird.. favre was a gunslinger today just like he was 10 yrs ago.. threw balls that had chances to be picked, but werent and threw 3 tds and nearly 400 yrds.. ur point is still dumb

[son of a vic]

weird.. favre was a gunslinger today just like he was 10 yrs ago.. threw balls that had chances to be picked, but werent and threw 3 tds and nearly 400 yrds.. ur point is still dumb

How many times did he chuck it into double or triple coverage? How many times did he throw a deep pass with the safety calling a fair catch?

The point is valid, because he has strayed away from this type of play, ever since Holmgren left. If you can't grasp this very simple concept, do not waste my time with your assonine rebuttals.

[Pacopete4]

actually he threw it right into the hands of a defender in the endzone when trying to hook up with greg jennings...

4th and 1.. tried to fit it in to bubba when we all know what happened in buffalo last season

the slant were driver caught it and broke a tackle and did a dance for the fans sitting inside the bleacher seats... driver= not open at all... jennings was wide open on the same route on the same side... you may say he completed it so it dont matter.. but it was a typical favre throw and i love ever second of it

throwing off his backfoot while being hit to donald lee on a 3 down that coulda very easily been picked had it been another QB throwing it with less arm strenght


4 instances that just came in my mind without watchin the game again.. weird

if you cant "grasp" the fact that he is still a gunslinger that just doesnt have to win a game all on his own anymore than your the one that doesnt know what he's talking about... Favre's playin like he did in his prime years because now he has 3 WR's and 2 TE's that are catchin the ball well for him.. plus RB's that are doing the same outta the backfield...

[swede]

Vandermause wrote a recent article with a similar point regarding whether or not Favre has been "disciplined" or "reigned in" by MM. In it he quotes Mike Holmgren who says that Favre's unchecked tendency to throw picks cost the Packers several games in the 4-12 season. With all due respect, Mr. Holmgren, I say "bull$hip!"

I think any series of outrageous picks in the last three or four years tended to happen when the games were already slipping away, It was only then that Brett tried saving them with really high risk throws. Brett rarely lost games all by himself.

I concur with the idea that for the first time in many years Favre is coming to the line and calling out adjustments to fellow players that are actually making the adjustments with him. I'm ecstatic that MM gives Fave permission to audible, and it is making marvelous use of a rare resource on the football field: no one else will ever bring as much quarterback experience to a game than Mr. Brett Favre. George Blanda doesn't count.

I recall James Jones coming back to a scambling Favre (pretty sure it was the SD game) and I thought how just a few games ago in preseason Favre was scolding the kid for not doing that exact same thing. Being in synch with his teammates is one of the main reasons Favre's picks are down--not simply that he's been "reined in" by a bossy coach.

[fan4life]

Vandermause wrote a recent article with a similar point regarding whether or not Favre has been "disciplined" or "reigned in" by MM. In it he quotes Mike Holmgren who says that Favre's unchecked tendency to throw picks cost the Packers several games in the 4-12 season. With all due respect, Mr. Holmgren, I say "bull$hip!"

I think any series of outrageous picks in the last three or four years tended to happen when the games were already slipping away, It was only then that Brett tried saving them with really high risk throws. Brett rarely lost games all by himself.

I concur with the idea that for the first time in many years Favre is coming to the line and calling out adjustments to fellow players that are actually making the adjustments with him. I'm ecstatic that MM gives Fave permission to audible, and it is making marvelous use of a rare resource on the football field: no one else will ever bring as much quarterback experience to a game than Mr. Brett Favre. George Blanda doesn't count.

I recall James Jones coming back to a scambling Favre (pretty sure it was the SD game) and I thought how just a few games ago in preseason Favre was scolding the kid for not doing that exact same thing. Being in synch with his teammates is one of the main reasons Favre's picks are down--not simply that he's been "reined in" by a bossy coach. Great post.

[son of a vic]

actually he threw it right into the hands of a defender in the endzone when trying to hook up with greg jennings...

4th and 1.. tried to fit it in to bubba when we all know what happened in buffalo last season

the slant were driver caught it and broke a tackle and did a dance for the fans sitting inside the bleacher seats... driver= not open at all... jennings was wide open on the same route on the same side... you may say he completed it so it dont matter.. but it was a typical favre throw and i love ever second of it

throwing off his backfoot while being hit to donald lee on a 3 down that coulda very easily been picked had it been another QB throwing it with less arm strenght


4 instances that just came in my mind without watchin the game again.. weird

if you cant "grasp" the fact that he is still a gunslinger that just doesnt have to win a game all on his own anymore than your the one that doesnt know what he's talking about... Favre's playin like he did in his prime years because now he has 3 WR's and 2 TE's that are catchin the ball well for him.. plus RB's that are doing the same outta the backfield...

So it's just luck that determines a good or bad performance. He has no better talent on offense now, than he did a few years back whem he was throwing a ton of picks. Same guy, better decisions. It ain't all luck.

[HarveyWallbangers]

So it's just luck that determines a good or bad performance. He has no better talent on offense now, than he did a few years back whem he was throwing a ton of picks. Same guy, better decisions. It ain't all luck.

The last year that he had a healthy Walker and Driver (2004), he threw for 64%, nearly 4000 yards, 30 TDs, and 17 picks. I think everybody will take those numbers. He hasn't had these same weapons the last two years. This year, he has those weapons again. In 2005, Walker, Ferguson, Franks, and Martin all were injured--not to mention Ahman and Davenport. His numbers rebounded quite a bit last year (especially if you consider all of the drops)--even though it was pretty much a one man show again (Driver). Jennings was solid, but then got injured. The TEs stunk. The rest of the WRs were ordinary. This year, he has Driver, Jennings, Jones, and two TEs that have bounced back (and don't have to block half the time).

I'm sure it's a little of both, but talent around him has a lot to do with it.

[Joemailman]

McCarthy has managed the neat trick of corralling the gunslinger and unleashing him at the same time. He has managed to convince Favre to play within the system, and not try to win the game singlehandedly. And yet, the offense is largely dependent on the arm of Favre, at least for now. This is somewhat reminiscent of 1995 when the Packers were 26th in the league in rushing, but made it to the NFC Title Game as Favre won his first MVP.

[The Shadow]

Favre's being held accountable by a no-bs coach and we are 3-0.
I'll take it!

[mraynrand]

So it's just luck that determines a good or bad performance. He has no better talent on offense now, than he did a few years back whem he was throwing a ton of picks. Same guy, better decisions. It ain't all luck.

The last year that he had a healthy Walker and Driver (2004), he threw for 64%, nearly 4000 yards, 30 TDs, and 17 picks. I think everybody will take those numbers. He hasn't had these same weapons the last two years. This year, he has those weapons again. In 2005, Walker, Ferguson, Franks, and Martin all were injured--not to mention Ahman and Davenport. His numbers rebounded quite a bit last year (especially if you consider all of the drops)--even though it was pretty much a one man show again (Driver). Jennings was solid, but then got injured. The TEs stunk. The rest of the WRs were ordinary. This year, he has Driver, Jennings, Jones, and two TEs that have bounced back (and don't have to block half the time).

I'm sure it's a little of both, but talent around him has a lot to do with it.

This is a great point. Furthermore, even though his 2004 numbers were almost identical to his 1997 MVP numbers, what was dramatically different was the defense. Favre was required to bring the team back from behind and score points because the defense really stunk. That's also a huge difference this year, as has been pointed out. When you know you don't have to score as much, you rpobably won't take so many chances. Even iff you do, you know your mistakes probably won't be as costly. Look back to the NFC championship against Carolina - Favre had an INT that led quickly to a TD and fumbled leading to a FG. Carolina scored 10 points in that game. Think the defense made a difference?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Good point. From packers.com:


The hot streak has prompted many to say Favre is toning down the risk-taking this season, managing Mike McCarthy's version of the West Coast offense better by taking the shorter throws and not gambling down the field.

While there's some truth to that, Favre isn't totally buying it.

"Everyone's on this Brett Favre bandwagon now, 'Boy, he's playing the game differently' and all these things," Favre said. "I don't see it that way."

That's because even though the statistics might indicate he's playing differently, the reason for his improved numbers, Favre said, is that the Packers have spent the first three games either ahead, tied, or trailing by only a few points, and he's right.

Of the 180 minutes in the three games, the Packers have trailed for a total of just 25 minutes and 15 seconds, or less than one of the six halves of football. They've never been down by more than one score, and they've been down by more than four points for only 4 minutes, 27 seconds, when they trailed San Diego 7-0 in the first quarter last Sunday before a field goal made it 7-3.

"We had a chance from the first snap to the last snap, it was never down by 14 or 17," Favre said. "If it's 0-0 in the third quarter, you don't have to take a gamble, but if you're down 17 points in the third quarter, at some point you have to start taking a shot."

Favre hasn't been forced to take those shots yet this season, but to say he's playing the game differently isn't accurate in his mind. He's playing the way the game situation dictates he should play, and he's always done that.

"I'm looking at the scoreboard for the most part saying, 'OK, we're in this game,' and that said, it's OK to punt, OK to take a checkdown," Favre said.

"I know we're struggling running the ball and more is expected of the passing game, but I don't think I'm going into the game with every dropback going, 'Don't turn it over, don't turn it over. Don't throw it down the field.' I'm just playing the game."

[Pacopete4]

son of a vic... looks like even favre agrees with me.. i dont think the guys changed his style of play one bit since hes entered the league.. the only difference now is that he doesnt take off and run like he used to but he is better for it because he's learned to buy more and more time finding his 3rd or 4th WR's..

"memo to "Pacopetey" My concept is prime rib, and your opinion is pathetically pointless."


you kinda look like a complete jackass now, unless favre's opinion to you is pathetically pointless and yours is still "prime rib" hahaha

[son of a vic]

son of a vic... looks like even favre agrees with me.. i dont think the guys changed his style of play one bit since hes entered the league.. the only difference now is that he doesnt take off and run like he used to but he is better for it because he's learned to buy more and more time finding his 3rd or 4th WR's..

"memo to "Pacopetey" My concept is prime rib, and your opinion is pathetically pointless."


you kinda look like a complete jackass now, unless favre's opinion to you is pathetically pointless and yours is still "prime rib" hahaha


I'm sure Brett's going to come out and say that in previous years the coaches didn't hold him accountable for his bad decisions, and he forced a lot of balls because the rest of the team sucked. It wasn't always 14-0 or 17-0 when he was throwing picks at an alarming rate. I contend that the head coach finally has the balls to tell him when he screws up. Talent does make a difference But considering there is no running game, tells me he's making better decisions than he has in the past.

If you believe everthing that come's out of Brett's mouth isn't usually water downed drivel to appease the media, then enjoy your fantasy

And by the way, I prefer to be called an incomplete jack-ass because Ive never had the pleasure of meeting you.

[the_idle_threat]

Are you saying that meeting him would "complete" you? :?: :?: :?:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p53/the_idle_threat/complete.jpg

[mraynrand]

I contend that the head coach finally has the balls to tell him when he screws up.

Well, on this point you'd be wrong. Sherman had his O-coordinator run Favre through film study of all his INTs to show exactly where he had gone wrong. There were multiple accounts that Favre detested Rossley for constantly riding him for everything he did wrong. Now, it's possible that McCarthy has a better style, and has done a far better job of convincing Favre to 'play within himself' but until Favre speaks about this, it's just as likly that it's been a change from within Favre himself. Someday, we'll know the truth I suspect, but for now it's a mystery.

BTW, just what exactly do you mean when you say a coach has to 'hold Favre accountable for his bad throws.' What do you mean? Benching Favre? What? I'll help you out - I think the way you do this is to call all running plays after a really bad 'chuck one up' decision. I'm pretty sure McCarthy did exactly this at least once last year - calling 5 straight running plays, even on passing downs, resulting in at least on punt.

[MJZiggy]

I think there's one hell of a difference between sending your O-Coordinator in the next day to look at film and give the QB a hard time and meeting him at the sideline after a bad throw and saying "what the hell was that?" There is film of McCarthy doing this. There is also film of McCarthy meeting him at the sideline after a great catch and saying "you got away with one there" meaning that it may have been caught, but he shouldn't have thrown it. He is also there to offer unconditional praise when something is done right. There is film of this and McCarthy's comments and the players comments all reflect this.

I know you know enough about learning and training theory to see the difference in these two approaches. Instant reward or correction is far more effective than a delayed response, especially if that delayed response is some form of punishment (like being ridden in the film room)

[son of a vic]

I contend that the head coach finally has the balls to tell him when he screws up.

Well, on this point you'd be wrong. Sherman had his O-coordinator run Favre through film study of all his INTs to show exactly where he had gone wrong. There were multiple accounts that Favre detested Rossley for constantly riding him for everything he did wrong. Now, it's possible that McCarthy has a better style, and has done a far better job of convincing Favre to 'play within himself' but until Favre speaks about this, it's just as likly that it's been a change from within Favre himself. Someday, we'll know the truth I suspect, but for now it's a mystery.

BTW, just what exactly do you mean when you say a coach has to 'hold Favre accountable for his bad throws.' What do you mean? Benching Favre? What? I'll help you out - I think the way you do this is to call all running plays after a really bad 'chuck one up' decision. I'm pretty sure McCarthy did exactly this at least once last year - calling 5 straight running plays, even on passing downs, resulting in at least on punt.


I said "head coach", not a flunky that Favre doesn't respect.

[mraynrand]

I said "head coach", not a flunky that Favre doesn't respect.

That's all you got? Certainly you would know that Sherman and Rossley were 'joined at the hip' for lack of a better expression. Favre knew Rossley had Sherman's full support. Pretty weak stuff, especially since I set you up with an easy comeback.

[son of a vic]

I said "head coach", not a flunky that Favre doesn't respect.

That's all you got? Certainly you would know that Sherman and Rossley were 'joined at the hip' for lack of a better expression. Favre knew Rossley had Sherman's full support. Pretty weak stuff, especially since I set you up with an easy comeback.


Off to soccer, will respond later.