"HARRELL, WAITING AND WATCHING""

[Bretsky]

Watching and waiting
Harrell yet to be activated
By GREG A. BEDARD
gbedard@journalsentinel.com
Posted: Sept. 26, 2007

Green Bay - In most NFL cities, every movement of the team's first-round pick is discussed and scrutinized.

Despite his status as a first-round pick, defensive tackle Justin Harrell has not played a regular-season snap for the Packers.

But with the Green Bay Packers off to a 3-0 start, the fact that defensive tackle Justin Harrell has yet to suit up for a game has barely been noticed.

That is, by everyone but Harrell.

"It's very disappointing," said Harrell, the 16th overall pick out of the University of Tennessee. "I feel like a freshman in college."

The last time Harrell watched this much football without being injured was when he redshirted with the Volunteers in 2002.

If Harrell needs to commiserate with other first-round picks about failing to make an immediate impact, he could call a couple of his former college teammates. Wide receiver Robert Meachem, the 27th overall pick by the New Orleans Saints, has been inactive for the first three games this season as well. And safety Jason Allen, taken in the same 16th spot by the Miami Dolphins in 2006, has never started a game.

Those Volunteers are hardly the only first-round selections to sit as rookies. Dallas Cowboys linebacker Bobby Carpenter was inactive for three of his first five games after being picked 18th last year. And Kansas City Chiefs running back Larry Johnson suited up once in his first eight games in 2003.

Harrell may be disappointed, but he insists he isn't frustrated. He understands that the Packers have four players in Ryan Pickett, Johnny Jolly, Corey Williams and Colin Cole who would be hard for any rookie to supplant.

"It's one of the things about the NFL," Harrell said. "I'm a rookie and I just have to think of positive things and just keep working. I just have to keep getting ready for my shot."

When the Packers drafted Harrell, he was still recovering from the ruptured biceps tendon that ended his senior season at Tennessee after just three games. The injury precluded Harrell from participating in off-season workouts, but he didn't help himself by showing up to training camp out of shape. And when he did get into the first three exhibition games, Harrell had to ask out because his conditioning wasn't where it needed to be.

Just before the final game, defensive tackles coach Robert Nunn pulled Harrell aside.

"He told me he was disappointed in me and that I needed to show more," Harrell said at the time.

While Nunn said Harrell misunderstood the message, it worked nonetheless. Harrell had four tackles (three solo) - the most by a Packers tackle - against the Titans and returned a fumble 18 yards for a touchdown in the third quarter.

"I talked to him about being patient," Nunn said. "I told him that we have to keep moving because expectations are there and rightfully so. I challenged him to respond and he's done that.

"He's done everything I've asked him to do, truly."

One of the players Harrell has relied on during this time is Williams, who was inactive for eight games his first two seasons with the Packers.

"I think he's been doing a great job of handling it," Williams said. "He hasn't been the kind to be pouting. He's just been keeping a positive attitude. It's frustrating, you get mad at times, but you just have to know when they call your name, you have to be ready. He's got his head right. He's going to be prepared for when they call his name."

Coach Mike McCarthy expects Harrell's time to come soon.

"I think it's just a matter of time for him to get his opportunity," McCarthy said. "I'd be very comfortable if he was in there."

[Merlin]

What kind of contract did Harrell sign?

[GBRulz]

Well, Mr. Harrell.... you aren't the only one who is disappointed about your @ss sitting on the pine...

[Zool]

I havent really been following the Saints, but why is Meachum inactive?

[Bretsky]

He was banged up and after that I think he has stunk; looks like a few of those who were pounding for Bowe were right on that one so far

[Packnut]

He was banged up and after that I think he has stunk; looks like a few of those who were pounding for Bowe were right on that one so far


8-)

[OS PA]

I havent really been following the Saints, but why is Meachem inactive?

I'm pretty sure he came into training camp looking like a defensive tackle rather than a wide receiver. Pretty much the same thing with Harrell, he was out of shape and didn't get much practice time in because of it. I think there also might have been a feigned injury issue that kept him off the field for some time.

I remember people being really high on Meachem before the draft and I wanted nothing to do with him. I was always a big Dwayne Bowe guy and it looks like my choice is far far better. I really still wouldn't mind seeing a guy like Bowe on our team. We could have just resigned Williams and been set at tackle for the next few years, instead we're lacking a few pieces of offense and we have our first round draft pick gathering splinters with his ass.

I've always been high on the Harrell pick, because I thought we needed more players for the rotation, and I'm sure Harrell will be fine, I'm sure he'll make his way into the rotation in front of Cole, but in retrospect we really could have used Dwayne Bowe, Greg Olsen, or a guy like Darrell Revis or Leon Hall would have really shored up a sore spot on our team.

Adding another CB instead of another tackle who we don't use would have made our defense outstanding, and we'd have a future replacement for Chuck or Al.

[Zool]

I remember people being really high on Meachem before the draft.

(cough)B-curse(cough)

[Deputy Nutz]

Right now the Packers look a little foolish for taking Harrell. If he was so good why can't he beat out Colin Cole or Johnny Jolly? The Packers had no need at tackle and TT took him any ways. Their were safeties out there and other defensive backs that could have been given serious consideration. Harris and Woodson are no spring Chickens, both have about one more solid year in them barring injury. Harris' back is been given him fits all season and the Packers have seriously no real deal replacement for either of the two corners.

The defensive tackle the Packers have either are young veterans, or under long term contracts, why draft Harrell?

[Carolina_Packer]

Do you think if do overs were allowed in hindsight, seeing how other DT's have developed, do you think TT deep down wishes he had picked someone more immediately impactful instead of Harrell?

I know what he would go on record saying, but that's TT-speak, and he's never going to admit a mistake like that because the guy is now under contract. But, you have to wonder if he has any regrets that he ponders, or if he really still does think in his mind, this was the best pick I could have made for the long term.

As long as the team is going good, who cares, I guess, but it sure would be nice to have someone like Bowe...of course then we may not have had the nice surprise of James Jones. A young corner would have been nice; can't have too many good ones. The TE from Miami would have been nice too; matchup problems o'plenty.

[Chubbyhubby]

I don't get it. Why are you ripping on the Packers on what the Packers should have picked in the draft as the Packers are 3-0 and WILL GO 4-0 after winning their game this week against the Vikes in the Dome. The player that was really impressive so far has been James Jones. Jackson has not produced and further more the O-line has looked mediocore at best. In the Running game that is. Pass protection has been good. When we beat the Vikings this week and play the Bears the following week on National TV we could stand 5-0 with Washington on the Packers slate next. Could we be 6-0 heading into the bye? Right now we are in the same company as Colts and Patriots as far as the power rankings go.

[Brohm]

With the way Jones is playing, I'm not sure why there is a beef in TT's passing on Bowe and Meachem. TT has shown a good eye for receivers.

With the way Jackson is playng maybe a more legit beef would be in TT not being more aggressive in trying to trade up to get Lynch.

Harrel a head-scratcher, indeed. But as the saying goes, we'll see in 3 years how this class plays out. Hell even the 2005 class is looking better with Collins, Poppinga and Coston :shock: Even Rodgers is looking like the future starter he should be. And lets not forget losing a 2nd and 4th rounder to injuries :(

[Merlin]

It's not so much a rip on the Packers as it is a rip on 3T. Before the pick, after the pick, it doesn't really matter. There are not very many supporters of taking Harrell in the first round. More over, there were more pressing needs at the time and once again 3T did what he wanted and not what was in the best interests of the team. If we go 4-0 or 19-0 or 3-13, it doesn't matter. It was a wasted pick then and it is a wasted pick now. That's why I asked how much his contract was worth. How much on the hook are we for this guy and for how many years if we end up cutting him? There were much better options on the board and 3T took the worst option available. It isn't helping us win games sure, but we added depth at the only position we had depth. And people call this guy smart?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Right now the Packers look a little foolish for taking Harrell. If he was so good why can't he beat out Colin Cole or Johnny Jolly? The Packers had no need at tackle

This pretty well sums it up. The "best player available" theory doesn't work when the "best player" can't crack a 10-deep depth chart.

It's like this: Justin Harrell is a major disappointment. If he does not become a STARTER next year, he is a major flop.

I don't expect every player to be a great or even good pick, it is largely a crap shoot. I trust TT had good reason to pick Harrell. And maybe we'll find out next year that all is rosy.

[MJZiggy]

It's not so much a rip on the Packers as it is a rip on 3T. Before the pick, after the pick, it doesn't really matter. There are not very many supporters of taking Harrell in the first round. More over, there were more pressing needs at the time and once again 3T did what he wanted and not what was in the best interests of the team. If we go 4-0 or 19-0 or 3-13, it doesn't matter. It was a wasted pick then and it is a wasted pick now. That's why I asked how much his contract was worth. How much on the hook are we for this guy and for how many years if we end up cutting him? There were much better options on the board and 3T took the worst option available. It isn't helping us win games sure, but we added depth at the only position we had depth. And people call this guy smart?

If Harrell makes the Pro Bowl in 3 years was it a wasted pick? and coming back and saying it won't happen is an invalid answer. So is saying he won't crack the lineup.

[Carolina_Packer]

Right now the Packers look a little foolish for taking Harrell. If he was so good why can't he beat out Colin Cole or Johnny Jolly? The Packers had no need at tackle

This pretty well sums it up. The "best player available" theory doesn't work when the "best player" can't crack a 10-deep depth chart.

It's like this: Justin Harrell is a major disappointment. If he does not become a STARTER next year, he is a major flop.

I don't expect every player to be a great or even good pick, it is largely a crap shoot. I trust TT had good reason to pick Harrell. And maybe we'll find out next year that all is rosy.

Perhaps he got a little too near sighted when it came to building the D-line. Like I said, I can see how his perceptions might change after going through camp. Funny, he's willing to take a gamble on young talent at RB, a much more high profile and uncertain position during the off-season, but elects to stock up on a D-lineman. If he was sitting there with a crytal ball before he drafted Harrell and could see all the way to today, do you think he still would have chosen Harrell? How about if he could have seen how Johnny Jolly was going to step up? I think many would argue that we could addressed a higher need at #16 (and you can insert favorite players name there), and then draft a more developmental type guy later (or hell, look at Muir that we got as an undrafted). First round busts are the highest profile ones for sure...Tony Mandarich, Jon Michaels, and Jamal Reynolds could not be reached for comment.

I still think Harrell deserves more time. He was a boom/bust first round pick with his injury. I think he needs to show something this year or we need to hang onto Corey Williams. Your thoughts?

[Harlan Huckleby]

If he was sitting there with a crytal ball before he drafted Harrell and could see all the way to today, do you think he still would have chosen Harrell?

This is the only good question right now.

For people saying "wait and see", it is true that things can change. But it is not be an excuse to ignore the evidence right before your nose.

[Packnut]

It's not so much a rip on the Packers as it is a rip on 3T. Before the pick, after the pick, it doesn't really matter. There are not very many supporters of taking Harrell in the first round. More over, there were more pressing needs at the time and once again 3T did what he wanted and not what was in the best interests of the team. If we go 4-0 or 19-0 or 3-13, it doesn't matter. It was a wasted pick then and it is a wasted pick now. That's why I asked how much his contract was worth. How much on the hook are we for this guy and for how many years if we end up cutting him? There were much better options on the board and 3T took the worst option available. It isn't helping us win games sure, but we added depth at the only position we had depth. And people call this guy smart?

If Harrell makes the Pro Bowl in 3 years was it a wasted pick? and coming back and saying it won't happen is an invalid answer. So is saying he won't crack the lineup.


There is a better chance of Iran becoming our newest bestest buddy, than Harrell making the pro-bowl in 3 years........

[MJZiggy]

That's invalid. I want an answer to the question: if Harrell makes the pro bowl in 3 years is he a wasted pick?

[Harlan Huckleby]

That's invalid. I want an answer to the question: if Harrell makes the pro bowl in 3 years is he a wasted pick?

no.

and if he has 10 children, he's not impotent.

[Packnut]

That's invalid. I want an answer to the question: if Harrell makes the pro bowl in 3 years is he a wasted pick?


Yes. Harrell was not needed. Our D line was fine. If you wanna take the position that TT believed no one at 16 could help us this season, fine. If you wanna believe TT was planning for the future with this pick, that's fine too. However, he should have planned to concentrate more on what will become a position of need and that is cornerback. He could have taken one of the top CB's who could have been groomed over the next few seasons.

I'm not thrilled with Bush cause he does'nt know how to play the ball which is something I believe a DB should have an instinct for. IF Harris or Woodson go down, we're screwed. We have depth at D line without Harrell in the mix.

The previous party line was DT's take time to develope. Well Mr Okoye is all the rage down in Houston and has BLASTED that theory all to hell.

[GBRulz]

That's invalid. I want an answer to the question: if Harrell makes the pro bowl in 3 years is he a wasted pick?

If we are 1 playmaker short of making a serious SB run with Favre still here, yes.

I just think that unless a first round pick can contribute somewhat in his rookie year, it's a wasted pick. You pick up 1st rounders because you want (hope) for them to help your team now, not 4 years later. Especially with the money these rookie's are getting. QB's are a little different, so no I don't see Rodgers as a wasted pick. Although think of our team with Frank Gore instead??

[Maxie the Taxi]

Drafting players is like hiring employees: you win some and you lose some.

In 2006 we had to choose between Hawk and Mario Williams. I wanted Williams. We also had to choose between Greg Jennings and Devin Hester. I wanted Jennings. I also wanted Abdul Hodge over Demeco Ryans. The whole league passed on Marques Colston.

My pre-draft board this year looked like this:

1. ROBERT MEACHEM, WR
2. BRIAN LEONARD, RB
3. BEN PATRICK, TE (or FRED BENNETT, CB)
4. LORENZO BOOKER, RB, PR
5. COURTNEY BROWN, CB (or MARTREZ MILNER, TE)
6. YAMON FIGURS, WR, KR
7. ROY HALL, WR, TE

I'm satisfied TT did all right, all things considered. I think you have to wait 2-3 years to really know how guys pan out.

[wist43]

If Williams walks as a result of drafting Harrell... regardless of how Harrell plays, he's a wasted pick b/c you already had the position filled with Williams.

It was Williams who provided the pressure on Rivers for Barnett's interception that sealed the win last week.

Williams is a damn fine DT... you don't use 1st round picks on guys that are going to be 3rd on your depth chart - or in this case, 5th - when all you have to do is sign the 1st two guys to extensions - with the truckload of cap space you have - and likely be set at the position for the next 5-6 years.

[MJZiggy]

If Harrell's playing poorly, I can't see TT not signing Williams just so he can keep Harrell. He seems to be brutally in the camp that you put the best 53 on the field.

[HarveyWallbangers]

If Williams walks as a result of drafting Harrell... regardless of how Harrell plays, he's a wasted pick b/c you already had the position filled with Williams.

Fruitless. If Williams walks, nobody will know if it's because of Harrell or Green Bay didn't think he was worth the money (see Ahman Green). The fact that Williams CAN walk after this year was a good reason to draft Harrell. If Harrell becomes a good player, it was a good pick--no matter what happens with Williams.

[Partial]

Harrell can ride the pine for a year if that is what it takes.

His two predecessors at Tenn are the two most dominant defensive tackles in the league. If I remember correctly, it took Haynesworth 2-3 years before he became a stud.

Let's look at this argument again in 4 years. Give the kid some time.

[The Leaper]

I just think that unless a first round pick can contribute somewhat in his rookie year, it's a wasted pick.

Harrell could very easily turn out to be a perennial Pro Bowl talent 2-3 years down the line...and you would sit here and claim that is a waste simply because he wasn't a world beater in year 1?

The fact of the matter is that the depth on our DL is a huge advantage. Harrell's drafting likely ensures that depth will remain into the future...regardless of what happens down the road.

I'm willing to give Harrell a couple years to develop before I write him off as a wasted pick.

[VanPackFan]

There is a better chance of Iran becoming our newest bestest buddy, than Harrell making the pro-bowl in 3 years........

I don't understand for one second how you can possibly say this, and I hope my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning.
If the kid has a good work ethic and skills, and if he follows the same progression path as many before him, there's no reason he shouldn't be a starter next year and go from there.
Odds are the door will be open for him when Corey Williams inevitably departs. I think if they were going to extend his contract they would have done so by now. I think Jolly's emergence probably put the kibosh on handing Williams the cash.

Here's the question... when Donald Driver was drafted did any of you see him turning into a pro bowler? Did anyone see Marques Colston coming last year? Did anyone think a nickel back from Philadelphia would become our shutdown corner? To write off a first round draft pick, ANY first round draft pick, at this point is foolish.

[rbaloha1]

Chill Packer fans on Justin Harrell. We are 3-0 with a 75 per cent likelihood of making the playoffs. Is it not amazing how much the team has progressed from 2005 and 2006?

As for JH, the guy flashed power and explosion during the preseason. The problem was stamina which is easily fixed throughout the season.

Fortunately the Packers are blessed with quality d-tackles allowing JH to learn and develop the required NFL stamina.

Corey Williams is elgible for free agency after the season. Ryan Pickett is 30+. Colin Cole is strictly a rotational tackle. Next season, JH starts and makes a significant contribution.

Okay TT bashers, you need to find something to complain about. When does the whining stop? When are you guys start to show thanks for TT rebuilding the team to make a legitimate playoff run?

[Bretsky]

It's not so much a rip on the Packers as it is a rip on 3T. Before the pick, after the pick, it doesn't really matter. There are not very many supporters of taking Harrell in the first round. More over, there were more pressing needs at the time and once again 3T did what he wanted and not what was in the best interests of the team. If we go 4-0 or 19-0 or 3-13, it doesn't matter. It was a wasted pick then and it is a wasted pick now. That's why I asked how much his contract was worth. How much on the hook are we for this guy and for how many years if we end up cutting him? There were much better options on the board and 3T took the worst option available. It isn't helping us win games sure, but we added depth at the only position we had depth. And people call this guy smart?

If Harrell makes the Pro Bowl in 3 years was it a wasted pick? and coming back and saying it won't happen is an invalid answer. So is saying he won't crack the lineup.

If Harrell does not make the pro bowl in three years will you call it a wasted pick ? Just trying to get you to say something on record we can use down the road too :lol:

[Bretsky]

That's invalid. I want an answer to the question: if Harrell makes the pro bowl in 3 years is he a wasted pick?

No

Now you answer

[Bretsky]

Harrell can ride the pine for a year if that is what it takes.

His two predecessors at Tenn are the two most dominant defensive tackles in the league. If I remember correctly, it took Haynesworth 2-3 years before he became a stud.

Let's look at this argument again in 4 years. Give the kid some time.

Both were good enough to play right away. Henderson was better at first; but both were good enough to wear a uniform on game day from the start.

Isn't this great !! All this fluff talk. Feels good to argue again :lol:

[HarveyWallbangers]

He doesn't have to make the Pro Bowl. He has to be a good player. A guy on the level of a Nick Barnett at DT. I'd say the chances of getting a Pro Bowl player at pick #17 are way below 50%.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Both were good enough to play right away. Henderson was better at first; but both were good enough to wear a uniform on game day from the start.

Isn't this great !! All this fluff talk. Feels good to argue again :lol:

Were they both coming off a torn triceps? An injury that doctors said in a JSO article (long before training camp started) would take a year to regain full strength from. Were they able to workout in the offseason leading up to their rookie years?

[MJZiggy]

It's not so much a rip on the Packers as it is a rip on 3T. Before the pick, after the pick, it doesn't really matter. There are not very many supporters of taking Harrell in the first round. More over, there were more pressing needs at the time and once again 3T did what he wanted and not what was in the best interests of the team. If we go 4-0 or 19-0 or 3-13, it doesn't matter. It was a wasted pick then and it is a wasted pick now. That's why I asked how much his contract was worth. How much on the hook are we for this guy and for how many years if we end up cutting him? There were much better options on the board and 3T took the worst option available. It isn't helping us win games sure, but we added depth at the only position we had depth. And people call this guy smart?

If Harrell makes the Pro Bowl in 3 years was it a wasted pick? and coming back and saying it won't happen is an invalid answer. So is saying he won't crack the lineup.

If Harrell does not make the pro bowl in three years will you call it a wasted pick ? Just trying to get you to say something on record we can use down the road too :lol:

No. In my book he doesn't need to make the Pro Bowl. If offenses worry about him being in there, that's what I want. How many Pro Bowls has Al Harris been to, but I wouldn't call him a waste either. Offenses worry about him. I want them to worry about every guy we put on the field. Will that happen, probably not, but it's something to shoot for.

[Bretsky]

Both were good enough to play right away. Henderson was better at first; but both were good enough to wear a uniform on game day from the start.

Isn't this great !! All this fluff talk. Feels good to argue again :lol:

Were they both coming off a torn triceps? An injury that doctors said in a JSO article (long before training camp started) would take a year to regain full strength from. Were they able to workout in the offseason leading up to their rookie years?


Ted Thompson said from the start their doctors had examined JH and they were fully confident the injury was well enough for him to be in the rotation right from the start. And that's just the rotation; I'm sure they would have liked more

So either they were incompetent/completely wrong or JH has underperformed :wink:

[HarveyWallbangers]

Ted Thompson said from the start their doctors had examined JH and they were fully confident the injury was well enough for him to be in the rotation right from the start. And that's just the rotation; I'm sure they would have liked more

So either they were incompetent/completely wrong or JH has underperformed :wink:

Let's see the quote. Knowing Thompson, I'd bet he said something like the doctors think he should be ready by the start of the season. I'm sure they are disappointed in how he came into camp out of shape. That doesn't mean we can write him off as a bust yet. Are people who are ready to write him off thinking that he won't get in shape and doesn't have the physical tools to be a good player? If so, I'm not sure how that could be judged at this point. He was playing with one good arm in camp. Plus, he was nowhere near as bad in those games as some made him out to be--at least from when I watched him closely. At the very least, he looks to be a guy that isn't easy to move in the middle.

[oregonpackfan]

As far as Harrell is concerned, I have two "Red Flags" waving about his value as a #1 pick:

1. He did not show up in shape for camp. All draftees, be they #1 choices or free agents need to report to camp in playing shape. It should be a sign of a commitment to making the team. I consider it enabliing his laziness by claiming he is "Playing himself into shape."

2. He is a #1 pick who cannot even crack the rotating group of 10 defensive linemen. Many #1 picks not only start but they make a playing contribution their first year. Sure, some players take 2-3 years to develop. A #1 pick who does not even suit up alarms me.

Yes, we need to give Harrell more time to develop. For now, I consider Harrell a "Wasted draft choice" until he proves otherwise.

[Partial]

Harrell can ride the pine for a year if that is what it takes.

His two predecessors at Tenn are the two most dominant defensive tackles in the league. If I remember correctly, it took Haynesworth 2-3 years before he became a stud.

Let's look at this argument again in 4 years. Give the kid some time.

Both were good enough to play right away. Henderson was better at first; but both were good enough to wear a uniform on game day from the start.

Isn't this great !! All this fluff talk. Feels good to argue again :lol:

But we have a phenominal line already. Plus, they're trying to play him 20 lbs heavier than he has ever played. Cut the kid some slack. I suspect he'll be playing next year.

[Carolina_Packer]

As far as Harrell is concerned, I have two "Red Flags" waving about his value as a #1 pick:

1. He did not show up in shape for camp. All draftees, be they #1 choices or free agents need to report to camp in playing shape. It should be a sign of a commitment to making the team. I consider it enabliing his laziness by claiming he is "Playing himself into shape."

2. He is a #1 pick who cannot even crack the rotating group of 10 defensive linemen. Many #1 picks not only start but they make a playing contribution their first year. Sure, some players take 2-3 years to develop. A #1 pick who does not even suit up alarms me.

Yes, we need to give Harrell more time to develop. For now, I consider Harrell a "Wasted draft choice" until he proves otherwise.

I agree OPF. Obviously all Packer fans can agree that they hope Harrell lives up to his promise, or at least his position of being the #16 pick of the draft. He can at some point, but it's just not working that way right now. I have no idea what they are seeing from him in practice now that the season has started. Is he still limited physically by the injury? Who knows.

I think as of right now, the fans who say that we could have drafted someone who would have been more immediately impactful (especially on offense) are right. That doesn't mean they don't like Harrell or wish him any ill during his development. I think people equate first rounder with immediate and impactful contributor, and he has been neither. Can he still have impact? Yes, and we'll see.

[Fritz]

I knew Jamaal Reynolds, Sir, and Harrell is no Jamaal Reynolds.

Relax. Is Bowe better at this point than James Jones? Me, I'm in the I'd-a-rather-had-a-good-corner. But who? Leon Hall was gone, wasn't he? And I'm still not a big Greg Olsen fan, as far as TE's go.

Man. Give Harrell a year, at least. As someone else noted, TT's first draft is looking better and better with every passing game.

[RashanGary]

Here is what is going to happen:

1. People will sit around talking like they know what could have and should have been done. They'll call names, place blame and continue on in their ignorance

2. Harrell will adjust both physically and technically to the game and like many Dlineman (Mario Williams for example), he'll have a great 2nd year.

3. Everyone will forget what big mouthed idiots they are and pretend like they are on board and happy with the pick.


It goes hand in hand with the whole forum pattern

1. Bash Ted when you have no clue what will happen
2. Ted proves to be better than imagined
3. Jump on board like you've always been there

Why should it go any other way and why should people ever question their know it all ways? I'll answer; because you people are wrong almost every time you open your mouths. I'd say do yourselves a favor and put a foot in your mouths becuase odds are it will be placed there over the course of time and it will probably be less comfortable when someone else does it for you.

[oregonpackfan]

Here is what is going to happen:

1. People will sit around talking like they know what could have and should have been done. They'll call names, place blame and continue on in their ignorance

2. Harrell will adjust both physically and technically to the game and like many Dlineman (Mario Williams for example), he'll have a great 2nd year.

3. Everyone will forget what big mouthed idiots they are and pretend like they are on board and happy with the pick.


It goes hand in hand with the whole forum pattern

1. Bash Ted when you have no clue what will happen
2. Ted proves to be better than imagined
3. Jump on board like you've always been there

Why should it go any other way and why should people ever question their know it all ways? I'll answer; because you people are wrong almost every time you open your mouths. I'd say do yourselves a favor and put a foot in your mouths becuase odds are it will be placed there over the course of time and it will probably be less comfortable when someone else does it for you.

JH,

Were you born with a condescending, arrogant attitude or is it something you have worked hard to develop over the years?

[RashanGary]

How can you not condiscend a bit with some of these people? They just keep going down the same paths with the same bad results. As Rush would say, it's the definition of insanity.

[superfan]

There is only one prediction I can make with any certainty - this thread will end up in the GC by the end of the week.

[GBRulz]

Ya know what I don't like about what seems to be going on so much lately is this " I told you so" type attitude. The whole philosophy of people trying to plot people against one another in hopes of proving them wrong is getting old. Way old.

[GBRulz]

Harrell could very easily turn out to be a perennial Pro Bowl talent 2-3 years down the line...and you would sit here and claim that is a waste simply because he wasn't a world beater in year 1?

The fact of the matter is that the depth on our DL is a huge advantage. Harrell's drafting likely ensures that depth will remain into the future...regardless of what happens down the road.

I'm willing to give Harrell a couple years to develop before I write him off as a wasted pick.

No where did I say he has to be a "world beater" in year 1. Once again, you have to put words in people's mouths to get your point across.

Yes, I am concerened about Harrell. We pay him a boatload of money, he comes into camp out of shape, is so far down the depth chart that he has yet to be activated for a game. Yes, I am worried about him being a bust. Draft picks are nothing more than a lottery, some you hit on, some you don't.

But yes, if we are 1 playmaker away from a SB run and we have this DL who hasn't been activated all year, where we could have been grooming a higher position of need, then yes...it's a waste. I'm impatient.

[Partial]

Who cares?? We're 3-0 without our first round pick playing. Last time I checked not having to rely on rookies is a GOOD thing. We're in first place and JH is working his butt off to crack the lineup. We have such amazing depth at the position that he will have to work harder and be better than he ever has before.

We can worry about what Harrell can and cannot do when the time comes where he gets his shot. Right now, the chief concern should be the Vikings and Justin Harrell shouldn't be anywhere on our radar. My chief concern this weekend is containing Peterson. I think they'll run a lot of screens behind McKinnie and Hutch and that could cause a lot of problems with their sheer size.

[RashanGary]

Ya know what I don't like about what seems to be going on so much lately is this " I told you so" type attitude. The whole philosophy of people trying to plot people against one another in hopes of proving them wrong is getting old. Way old.

That's how reputations are built, GBR. I've had a few things bite me in the ass. You've spent enough time at forums where you should know how these things work. You say something in a loud, confident manner and people are going to remember what you said and remind you when it's wrong. Anyone who thinks they have the answers better be ready to take the flack if it's wrong. The smart thing to do is just admit you were wrong and maybe even learn something by being wrong. It just goes away at that point. If you keep doing the same things expecting different results than people will continue to hold you responsible for your inaccuracies.

I was saying Hawk was a better player than Barnett for two weeks. After the 3rd week of Barnett outplaying Hawk it was pretty clear that I was wrong at this point in their careers. I just admitted it and moved on. Nobody has to bring it back up to me because I don't keep going out and saying the same things over and over. I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that if I started a thread about Barnett being overrated that I'd be torn up.

You doom and gloomers have complained about every move Ted Thompson has made and overtime you are wrong more often than not. Now you are complaining about the Harrell pick before he's even had a year in the NFL. It's par for the course for the doom and gloom crowd, but don't be suprised when time proves you wrong again. I don't know what will happen, but Ted's history suggests that there is a higher likelyhood of good than bad.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You doom and gloomers have complained about every move Ted Thompson has made and overtime you are wrong more often than not.

If you look at the most common, specific complaints, the complainers have arguably been correct.

No Moss.
No veteran running back.
Poor pick of Harrell.

the overall job TT has done looks favorable. Very few people have dismissed him as a GM.

[RashanGary]

You doom and gloomers have complained about every move Ted Thompson has made and overtime you are wrong more often than not.

If you look at the most common, specific complaints, the complainers have arguably been correct.

No Moss (we have Greg Jennings and Jones)
No veteran running back (is a problem for at least 1/2 of a year, probably a year)
Poor pick of Harrell (you have no clue and I'd bet you are wrong)


For all of the complaints, Ted has gotten answers. Different answers than you would have liked, but functional answers none the less. Enough to field what looks to be a playoff competitive team. The magic that you are missing is that Ted has built a contender without many short term patches, instead focusing on long term answers. The big picture is that the whining and doom and gloom was meaningless. Look at the record predictions of these poeople, you included. You were very likely wrong in your guess of how this team was being built.

The goal was to build a winnign team and the doom and gloomers have claimed that Ted was not doing that. The fact of the matter is that he did. They complained about the Collins pick. They complained about the Jennings pick. They complained about the Jones pick. They complain about everything. They are wrong on most, but you did a nice job bringing up the three things that they were at least right on in the short term. Let's see how your arguements holds up over time. I'll be here.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The magic that you are missing is that Ted has built a contender without many short term patches .

TT's ultra-conservative approach has not gone unnoticed by anyone.

And it's not "Ted". "Mr. Thompson" to you. Unless he is one of your boys.


Look at the record predictions of these poeople, you included. You were very likely wrong in your guess of how this team was being built .

Your statement is WAY too sweeping. I predicted they would go 8-8 because they wouldn't be able to win without a running game.

[RashanGary]

And you predicted wrong. You will be even more wrong if you keep on the doom and gloom train.

You will never look more right than you do right now and you don't even look very right, right now. I'm curious to see this thing unfold, I'll bet you want it decided right now.

[Scott Campbell]

That's invalid. I want an answer to the question: if Harrell makes the pro bowl in 3 years is he a wasted pick?

no.

and if he has 10 children, he's not impotent.



And how many children do you have Harlan?

:D

[Harlan Huckleby]

You will never look more right than you do right now

:oops: you romantic devil http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/images/smiles/icon_heart.gif

[Scott Campbell]

I don't understand why there's such a big hurry to judge this pick. Were 3 games into his pro football career. I'm just going to wait and see how he pans out.

[Harlan Huckleby]

And how many children do you have Harlan?

:D

see above

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't understand why there's such a big hurry to judge this pick. Were 3 games into his pro football career. I'm just going to wait and see how he pans out.

an inactive first rounder is noteworthy

[RashanGary]

Many here take the wait and see approach.

I and a few others support the approach that Ted Thompson is taking.

Others have insistend that his inepness would prevent the Packers from having a winning season.

That is the the main arguement that has been going on this season. There are details that can appear to fall either way but the record and overall picture is what it is. It will be decided in over the next few months and then further cemented over the next few years.

[KYPack]

I knew Jamaal Reynolds, Sir, and Harrell is no Jamaal Reynolds.

Relax. Is Bowe better at this point than James Jones? Me, I'm in the I'd-a-rather-had-a-good-corner. But who? Leon Hall was gone, wasn't he? And I'm still not a big Greg Olsen fan, as far as TE's go.

Man. Give Harrell a year, at least. As someone else noted, TT's first draft is looking better and better with every passing game.

Hall was still there. He went two picks later to the Bengals. He's been toasted a golden brown this season. He's a rookie, like Harrell.

I'm in Harrell's camp. in fact, this is the first time I've ever disagreed with Nutz about a lineman. DL is our deepest personnel group. We've got 11 DL's and Harrell is #11.

Give him time. A torn bicep takes a long time to heal. He needs time in an NFL weight room to bloom. As many have said, he's not in shape. He's a rook and had no idea what an NFL camp is like for a DL. No way he'll show up with such weak cardio next season.

As many have said, he should have known better, but 23 yr olds are funny that way. This kid has shown me some flashes in the pre-season. I think he can actually be a special guy for us. He could be a run stuffer that provides pass rush if he develops properly. That is worth gold to any D Coordinator.

A year of lifting, showing up with good wind, and having NFL reps will make a world of difference with this kid.

I really think he can be a big thing.

[Lurker64]

an inactive first rounder is noteworthy

But a DT doing anything notable in his rookie season is rare at best. Remember, Ryan Pickett was a first round pick by the Rams, sat out five games his rookie year and made fewer than 20 tackles for a poor defense. He's grown into a pretty solid anchor for us, hasn't he? Harrell likely has higher upside than Pickett did, but is coming off an injury. Johnny Jolly saw no action last year until late season his rookie year, and was pedestrian at best then. This year he's one of our best DTs. Rookie DTs just don't do much, historically. It's their second year you want them to make an impact. If Harrell sits out all 19 games this year, I won't be too upset. If he's not making an impact next year, I will be very concerned however.

[Partial]

You will never look more right than you do right now

:oops: you romantic devil http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/images/smiles/icon_heart.gif

:lol: :lol:

[b bulldog]

the Harrell pick was a eye opener to be sure. If he plays nexzt season and makes a name for himself I will be fine with the pick but if he doesn't do well next year, I will call it a bust because in today's NFL players drafted need to contibute asap. That being said, if Harrell is a bust, that does no way mean the draft was bad. This past draft looks to be strong and to be honest, the best move at the time, and I stated it than was to pull the trigger with the Browns. obviously that didn't happen and now we wait and see if Justin has enough heart to show the naysayers wrong . One thing that really did trouble me about Harrell is that he showed up to camp overweight and he could barely finish the line drills. That shows me that he is not driven bur hopefully that will only happen this year.

[Fritz]

I knew Jamaal Reynolds, Sir, and Harrell is no Jamaal Reynolds.

Relax. Is Bowe better at this point than James Jones? Me, I'm in the I'd-a-rather-had-a-good-corner. But who? Leon Hall was gone, wasn't he? And I'm still not a big Greg Olsen fan, as far as TE's go.

Man. Give Harrell a year, at least. As someone else noted, TT's first draft is looking better and better with every passing game.

Hall was still there. He went two picks later to the Bengals. He's been toasted a golden brown this season. He's a rookie, like Harrell.

I'm in Harrell's camp. in fact, this is the first time I've ever disagreed with Nutz about a lineman. DL is our deepest personnel group. We've got 11 DL's and Harrell is #11.

Give him time. A torn bicep takes a long time to heal. He needs time in an NFL weight room to bloom. As many have said, he's not in shape. He's a rook and had no idea what an NFL camp is like for a DL. No way he'll show up with such weak cardio next season.

As many have said, he should have known better, but 23 yr olds are funny that way. This kid has shown me some flashes in the pre-season. I think he can actually be a special guy for us. He could be a run stuffer that provides pass rush if he develops properly. That is worth gold to any D Coordinator.

A year of lifting, showing up with good wind, and having NFL reps will make a world of difference with this kid.

I really think he can be a big thing.

For some reason (age?) I thought Hall went to the Jets. But in any case I wasn't a huge fan of his after his senior season. He had a great junior season, the went backwards. And now, apparently, he is toasty.

I'm down with most of TT's moves, and I think he's done enough to earn my trust. Give Harrell a year, and we'll see. It's fine with me.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Everybody is posting "if Harrell is good next year everything will be fine." Or worse yet, "if he is an all-pro in three years, it will be a good pick."

What a forum full of nitwits. :lol:

If Robert Fergusson is an all-pro in three years, that decision to cut him will sure be a bad one. If BJack is good next season, he will be a good 2nd round pick. If I win the lottery I'll surely get laid.

Maybe it's premature to evaluate Harrell based on what he's shown so far. But at least it's dealing with reality.

[KYPack]

[quote=Fritz]quote]

Hall was still there. He went two picks later to the Bengals. He's been toasted a golden brown this season. He's a rookie, like Harrell.

I'm in Harrell's camp. in fact, this is the first time I've ever disagreed with Nutz about a lineman. DL is our deepest personnel group. We've got 11 DL's and Harrell is #11.

Give him time. A torn bicep takes a long time to heal. He needs time in an NFL weight room to bloom. As many have said, he's not in shape. He's a rook and had no idea what an NFL camp is like for a DL. No way he'll show up with such weak cardio next season.

As many have said, he should have known better, but 23 yr olds are funny that way. This kid has shown me some flashes in the pre-season. I think he can actually be a special guy for us. He could be a run stuffer that provides pass rush if he develops properly. That is worth gold to any D Coordinator.

A year of lifting, showing up with good wind, and having NFL reps will make a world of difference with this kid.

I really think he can be a big thing.

For some reason (age?) I thought Hall went to the Jets. But in any case I wasn't a huge fan of his after his senior season. He had a great junior season, the went backwards. And now, apparently, he is toasty.

I'm down with most of TT's moves, and I think he's done enough to earn my trust. Give Harrell a year, and we'll see. It's fine with me.

Hall would've been a good pick for us & we would have been a much better situation for him. Playing behind our two old sages at corner and playing a little nickel is exactly what Hall needs. The Bengals were hurtin' at corner and tossed Hall to the wolves by starting him. He was no Craig Newsome or Mike McKenzie and was skinned alive right away. Hope the kid turns it around, he can be a very good player.

[Maxie the Taxi]

What a forum full of nitwits. :lol:



Harlan, is this you playing 2nd violin...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZREwWi8eQQ

[Scott Campbell]

Everybody is posting "if Harrell is good next year everything will be fine." Or worse yet, "if he is an all-pro in three years, it will be a good pick."

What a forum full of nitwits. :lol:

If Robert Fergusson is an all-pro in three years, that decision to cut him will sure be a bad one. If BJack is good next season, he will be a good 2nd round pick. If I win the lottery I'll surely get laid.

Maybe it's premature to evaluate Harrell based on what he's shown so far. But at least it's dealing with reality.


I have no idea what you could be talking about. What reality? Were 3-0, and I don't see anyone asking us to forfeit those games just becasue Harrell isn't yet playing. Do you want to assess Ted with a final grade based on Harrell not playing yet? Is that really, really important to you? What for? Why? What would that accomplish? Would you like to cut Harrell?

I don't see how anybody elses opinion is any more nitwitted than yours.

[Carolina_Packer]

Everybody is posting "if Harrell is good next year everything will be fine." Or worse yet, "if he is an all-pro in three years, it will be a good pick."

What a forum full of nitwits. :lol:

If Robert Fergusson is an all-pro in three years, that decision to cut him will sure be a bad one. If BJack is good next season, he will be a good 2nd round pick. If I win the lottery I'll surely get laid.

Maybe it's premature to evaluate Harrell based on what he's shown so far. But at least it's dealing with reality.

http://www.bigballoonmusic.com/images/wimpy.gif The master of potential!

[Carolina_Packer]

JH, you're a good dude, and I like being positive too, but don't give TT a free pass on everything. Yes, there is nothing we can directly do about his decisions, but this forum gives people an opportunity to vent. I don't think things are all or nothing, like saying "You're either with us or against us". That's too extreme.

Just because someone dissects a draft, or analyzes a particular pick does not mean they are trashing the GM, or his draft, or even Justin Harrell the player. I think some would argue, and the way it has developed during OTA's and training camp and the first three games, one could argue that if the Packers had used #16 to select another player who could have addressed a more immediate need, that would have been better in the short term. You have to at least see the logic in that argument, because it cannot be argued that Harrell is helping us in the short term.

I don't think anyone is trashing Harrell in this thread, and I do agree that it's strange that he has not been active as a first rounder. Let's just use active as a standard, not even impactful. I think people associate first rounder with most ready to play/contribute. Is that way off base? I don't think so. The degree to which they contribute is a wide gap; some do way more than others. Perhaps it just setup differently for Harrell, being in a deep, more cometetive group, but then, I think people expected him to distinguish himself from the group and so far he has not. That said, they do have the luxury of sitting him, letting him heal and develop on the practice field, and perhaps in order to pay for potential talent on the DL, you have to spend a first round pick, even if it is a short-term loss in immediate help.

I am not comparing him to Jamal Reynolds because it's waaay too early for that, but when you were watching Jamal Reynolds, didn't you ever think to yourself, "where is the talent? where are the signs of him being worth a first rounder?" I'm sure that was asked regularly, and then I'm sure JR just lost all confidence and faded into oblivion as a player. Again, I'm not saying that's what is or will happen to JH. Have we been able to see flashes or indications of why he was worthy of being a first rounder? I think that's a worthwhile question and people shouldn't be called negative for asking.

So, the worthwhile comments/questions are:

1) Is he showing signs of being worth a first rounder? So far, the jury is out.

2) Would someone else have been more immediately impactful to the 2007 Packers? Probably so.

I don't think debating either of those questions makes someone negative, or against TT.

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZREwWi8eQQ

those are some old school nitwits alright. a lot of stamina for older gents, I've seen shorter grateful dead concerts.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Most of them are grateful they're not dead.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Were 3-0, and I don't see anyone asking us to forfeit those games just becasue Harrell isn't yet playing. Do you want to assess Ted with a final grade based on Harrell not playing yet?

focus, SC, focus. We are taking measure of Harrell. What do the team's record, or TT's overall performance have to do with this topic?

My point is simple: grading Harrell by saying "he might be great in the future" is nitwittian.

Note: I am not going to respond to any posts in the future that refer to Thompson as "Ted".

[HarveyWallbangers]

My point is simple: grading Harrell by saying "he might be great in the future" is nitwittian.

Who is grading him? I think those that say he might be great in a couple of years are saying you can't grade him yet.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Just because someone dissects a draft, or analyzes a particular pick does not mean they are trashing the GM

Amen!

[Lurker64]

Everybody is posting "if Harrell is good next year everything will be fine." Or worse yet, "if he is an all-pro in three years, it will be a good pick."

What a forum full of nitwits. :lol:

If Robert Fergusson is an all-pro in three years, that decision to cut him will sure be a bad one. If BJack is good next season, he will be a good 2nd round pick. If I win the lottery I'll surely get laid.

Maybe it's premature to evaluate Harrell based on what he's shown so far. But at least it's dealing with reality.

When the Bills drafted McGahee (23rd overall), the injury he suffered in the national championship game meant that there was no chance at all that he would play a down during his rookie season. Yet in the following years he grew into a pretty good RB and made solid contributions in Buffalo. Was he a bad pick? Year 2 all the Bills fans were saying it was a brilliant move.

I just don't agree with the theory that "first round picks need to make an immediate impact or they're a waste." The guys who can make an immediate impact are rare and go very early in the draft, you don't get a shot at them at at 16 unless the draft is incredibly unusual. When you're drafting out of the top 10, you frequently (if not always) draft guys on their pedigree and their potential, not what they'll do for you right away. I mean how good have Jarvis Moss, Leon Hall, Michael Griffin, Aaron Ross, Reggie Nelson, Dwayne Bowe, Brady Quinn, Brandon Merriweather, Jon Beason, Anthony Spencer, Robert Meachem, Ben Grubs, and Craig Davis so far? I honestly don't think there's a lot we could have gotten with that pick that would have helped us more than Harrell so far. Has Harrell been disappointing so far? I think even he'd even tell you so. But does that really say anything about the long term value of the pick?

People's psychology about the draft is all messed up. "Getting Matt Leinart makes the cardinals an immediate contender" but "the Bills f-ed up when they took Donte Whitner", but "the 49ers Vernon Davis will make their offense unstoppable." That's all hogwash. You don't usually draft a guy because of what he'll do for you right away, that's what free agency is for, you draft a guy because of what he'll do for you over the entirety of his career all of which lies ahead of him.

If nothing else, having Harrell makes the "extend Corey Williams" decision much simpler. Also, please nobody come up and say "we should have taken the deal the Browns offered", I've explained again and again in those threads that the deal the Browns offered was actually a very poor deal by the points, and it wouldn't have helped us this year any more.

[Zool]

This forum is like an ant farms look at society.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Who is grading him? I think those that say he might be great in a couple of years are saying you can't grade him yet.

Cop out.

If Harrell had been a gangbuster this past summer, and currently led the team in tackles, you wouldn't hear the nitwits say, "Ya, he's doing well. But we need to wait two years to know whether TT made a good pick."

One can ALWAYS say "time will tell." But it's lame, and against the spirit in which internet forums were founded. That would be the spirit of mouthing off. Stand and deliver!

[Zool]

One can ALWAYS say "time will tell." But it's lame, and against the spirit in which internet forums were founded. That would be the spirit of mouthing off. Stand and deliver!

Ahh yes. Grandstanding, bitching and complaining in a consequence free environment. SIT and deliver!

[Harlan Huckleby]

you're a real fun guy, Zool.

[Zool]

We all play our part.

[Scott Campbell]

My point is simple: grading Harrell by saying "he might be great in the future" is nitwittian.


My point is even simpler: grading Harrell at this time is nitwittian.

[Brohm]

Count me in the can't be graded for ~3 years camp.

[Carolina_Packer]

Good ol' NFL.com. Here is the 1st round draft results and a list of those players who are active and contributing. I went to each team's depth chart and dragged the mouse cursor over the player's name to show number of games and stats. For O-lineman, it just shows games and games started.

According to this, the only teams not getting anything from their first rounders right now are Oakland, for contract hold-out reasons obviously, Justin Harrell, who is listed 3rd on the depth chart, Brady Quinn, who is a backup QB to Derrick Anderson, and Robert Meachem who has been not been active for a game this year. What's up with those Vols? Late bloomers, I guess.

This is not to say JH won't develop. I sure hope he does, since he's under contract. It simply points out the obvious that he has not made an impact of any kind, and that's concerning. Can he rebound? Sure. Will he make his mark? Should we have seen signs of why he was drafted in the first round? I think so. Have we? Again, this is not to say he won't be something special, just that he has limped from the gate in his career compared to the other first rounders. Is it all related to his injury last year? I don't know, but something is holding back his ability to be an immedate contributor, and you see strong evidence that most of this year's crop have found a way to make an immediate contribution or impact for their respective team. You discount Russell and Quinn because they haven't had the chance to start/play. You cannot disagree that drafting almost any other player from #16 on would have given the Packers someone who would have shown more immedately. That's all I'm saying. I agree with those who say we didn't need him in order to be 3-0, and who knows how many of these guys have had a big impact on their respective teams, but most, if not all have been active and contributing. Hopefully JH can get it in gear.

# Team Player Pos Active or Contributing?
1 Oakland JaMarcus Russell QB Active, late signee
2 Detroit Calvin Johnson WR Active and Contributing
3 Cleveland Joe Thomas OT Active and Contributing
4 Tampa Bay Gaines Adams DE Active and Contributing
5 Arizona Levi Brown OT Active and Contributing
6 Washington LaRon Landry FS Active and Contributing
7 Minnesota Adrian Peterson RB Active and Contributing
8 Atlanta Jamaal Anderson DE Active and Contributing
9 Miami Ted Ginn Jr. WR Active and Contributing
10 Houston Amobi Okoye DT Active and Contributing
11 San Francisco Patrick Willis ILB Active and Contributing
12 Buffalo Marshawn Lynch RB Active and Contributing
13 St. Louis Adam Carriker DE Active and Contributing
14 N.Y. Jets Darrelle Revis CB Active and Contributing, late signee
15 Pittsburgh Lawrence Timmons OLB Active and Contributing
16 Green Bay Justin Harrell DT Not Active
17 Denver Jarvis Moss DE Active and Contributing
18 Cincinnati Leon Hall CB Active and Contributing
19 Tennessee Michael Griffin FS Active and Contributing
20 N.Y. Giants Aaron Ross CB Active and Contributing
21 Jacksonville Reggie Nelson FS Active and Contributing
22 Cleveland Brady Quinn QB Active, has not played
23 Kansas City Dwayne Bowe WR Active and Contributing
24 New England Brandon Meriweather FS Active and Contributing
25 Carolina Jon Beason OLB Active and Contributing
26 Dallas Anthony Spencer DE Active and Contributing
27 New Orleans Robert Meachem WR Not Active
28 San Francisco Joe Staley OT Active and Contributing
29 Baltimore Ben Grubbs G Active, has not played or started
30 San Diego Craig Davis WR Active and Contributing
31 Chicago Greg Olsen TE Injured weeks 1,2 Active/Contributing Wk3
32 Indianapolis Anthony Gonzalez WR Active and Contributing

[MadtownPacker]

Im not sure if Im a nitwit or not. I have mixed feelings on Harrell the player. He had a decent showing in the preseason but I sure would like to have at least seen him out there taking some snaps during garbage time at the end of the giants game.

But JustinHarrell the poster? He is showing signs that he may be mentally unfit to be an everydown poster.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Here's another way to look at it.


15 Pittsburgh Lawrence Timmons OLB - Backup
16 Green Bay Justin Harrell DT - Inactive
17 Denver Jarvis Moss DE - Backup
18 Cincinnati Leon Hall CB - Backup
19 Tennessee Michael Griffin FS - Backup
20 N.Y. Giants Aaron Ross CB - Backup
21 Jacksonville Reggie Nelson FS - Backup (would be starting, but has an injury)
22 Cleveland Brady Quinn QB - Backup
23 Kansas City Dwayne Bowe WR - Starter (because of an injury to Eddie Kennison)
24 New England Brandon Meriweather FS - Backup
25 Carolina Jon Beason OLB - Starter
26 Dallas Anthony Spencer DE - Starter (because of an injury to Greg Ellis)
27 New Orleans Robert Meachem WR - Inactive
28 San Francisco Joe Staley OT - Starter
29 Baltimore Ben Grubbs G - Backup
30 San Diego Craig Davis WR - Backup
31 Chicago Greg Olsen TE - Backup
32 Indianapolis Anthony Gonzalez WR - Backup

Of the guys drafted 15th or later, only 4 are starting. Two of them are starting because of an injury. One would be starting, but he is injured. Sorry, but I don't know what the panic is. A lot of these other teams drafted for need, so it makes sense that some of these guys would be starting. Even then, not that many are. If Green Bay was as weak at DT as Kansas City is at WR, Harrell would probably be starting. Big deal. I'm not big on drafting for need in the first round. Never have been. It got Sherman, and even Wolf, in trouble numerous times. Jon Michel was a need pick. Antuan Edwards was a need pick. Jamal Reynolds was a need pick. Bubba Franks was a need pick.

None of these other guys tore their biceps last year and could workout in the offseason. Give me a break. You draft for down the line. Green Bay is strong at DT. That doesn't mean they will be strong two years from now. Williams is a FA. There's no telling what kind of shape Pickett will be in a couple of years from now. Again, I'll wait at least 2 years, and probably into his third year, to judge Harrell.

[Carolina_Packer]

Here's another way to look at it.


15 Pittsburgh Lawrence Timmons OLB - Backup
16 Green Bay Justin Harrell DT - Inactive
17 Denver Jarvis Moss DE - Backup
18 Cincinnati Leon Hall CB - Backup
19 Tennessee Michael Griffin FS - Backup
20 N.Y. Giants Aaron Ross CB - Backup
21 Jacksonville Reggie Nelson FS - Backup (would be starting, but has an injury)
22 Cleveland Brady Quinn QB - Backup
23 Kansas City Dwayne Bowe WR - Starter (because of an injury to Eddie Kennison)
24 New England Brandon Meriweather FS - Backup
25 Carolina Jon Beason OLB - Starter
26 Dallas Anthony Spencer DE - Starter (because of an injury to Greg Ellis)
27 New Orleans Robert Meachem WR - Inactive
28 San Francisco Joe Staley OT - Starter
29 Baltimore Ben Grubbs G - Backup
30 San Diego Craig Davis WR - Backup
31 Chicago Greg Olsen TE - Backup
32 Indianapolis Anthony Gonzalez WR - Backup

Of the guys drafted 15th or later, only 4 are starting. Two of them are starting because of an injury. One would be starting, but he is injured. Sorry, but I don't know what the panic is. A lot of these other teams drafted for need, so it makes sense that some of these guys would be starting. Even then, not that many are. If Green Bay was as weak at DT as Kansas City is at WR, Harrell would probably be starting. Big deal. I'm not big on drafting for need in the first round. Never have been. It got Sherman, and even Wolf, in trouble numerous times. Jon Michel was a need pick. Antuan Edwards was a need pick. Jamal Reynolds was a need pick. Bubba Franks was a need pick.

None of these other guys tore their biceps last year and could workout in the offseason. Give me a break. You draft for down the line. Green Bay is strong at DT. That doesn't mean they will be strong two years from now. Williams is a FA. There's no telling what kind of shape Pickett will be in a couple of years from now. Again, I'll wait at least 2 years, and probably into his third year, to judge Harrell.

I agree with the drafting for team development and future projection. It's just interesting to note the disparity between the contributions of first rounders right away, and you pointed out why in some cases that is. I agree with a strong DL and OL philosophy. We've certainly seen times when not having neither has affected us negatively, so I understand setting yourself up to be good for a long time and having depth. All good with me. But, it is true that others are getting more immediate returns on their investment. We'll see who has the longer-term returns in terms of impact.

[The Leaper]

You cannot disagree that drafting almost any other player from #16 on would have given the Packers someone who would have shown more immedately.

I disagree. Few of the players drafted after Harrell are really making any meaningful contribution. Most of the ones that are are actually doing so to their team's DETRIMENT...the team would likely be better with a capable veteran, but is choosing to take the growing pains now to get a quicker payoff in the future or are forced to because of injury.

Our 4 game winning streak to close last season took away a chance to land someone who could make an immediate impact. It is extremely rare to land someone outside of the first 10-15 picks that is a major contributor from week one.

You draft someone based on their potential to produce over a career...not the first year. Most players take 2-4 years to come into their own and make any meaningful contributions...and the vast evidence pertaining to the position we are discussing (DT) shows that almost all rookies take longer than usual to develop properly. The difference in strength and speed, especially what is needed from their own body, is even larger in the trenches than anywhere else on the field for a college player to adjust to.

[KYPack]

Here's another way to look at it.


15 Pittsburgh Lawrence Timmons OLB - Backup
16 Green Bay Justin Harrell DT - Inactive
17 Denver Jarvis Moss DE - Backup
18 Cincinnati Leon Hall CB - Backup
19 Tennessee Michael Griffin FS - Backup
20 N.Y. Giants Aaron Ross CB - Backup
21 Jacksonville Reggie Nelson FS - Backup (would be starting, but has an injury)
22 Cleveland Brady Quinn QB - Backup
23 Kansas City Dwayne Bowe WR - Starter (because of an injury to Eddie Kennison)
24 New England Brandon Meriweather FS - Backup
25 Carolina Jon Beason OLB - Starter
26 Dallas Anthony Spencer DE - Starter (because of an injury to Greg Ellis)
27 New Orleans Robert Meachem WR - Inactive
28 San Francisco Joe Staley OT - Starter
29 Baltimore Ben Grubbs G - Backup
30 San Diego Craig Davis WR - Backup
31 Chicago Greg Olsen TE - Backup
32 Indianapolis Anthony Gonzalez WR - Backup

Of the guys drafted 15th or later, only 4 are starting. Two of them are starting because of an injury. One would be starting, but he is injured. Sorry, but I don't know what the panic is. A lot of these other teams drafted for need, so it makes sense that some of these guys would be starting. Even then, not that many are. If Green Bay was as weak at DT as Kansas City is at WR, Harrell would probably be starting. Big deal. I'm not big on drafting for need in the first round. Never have been. It got Sherman, and even Wolf, in trouble numerous times. Jon Michel was a need pick. Antuan Edwards was a need pick. Jamal Reynolds was a need pick. Bubba Franks was a need pick.

None of these other guys tore their biceps last year and could workout in the offseason. Give me a break. You draft for down the line. Green Bay is strong at DT. That doesn't mean they will be strong two years from now. Williams is a FA. There's no telling what kind of shape Pickett will be in a couple of years from now. Again, I'll wait at least 2 years, and probably into his third year, to judge Harrell.

Small point of order.

18 Cincinnati Leon Hall CB - Backup

He's starting and floundering like a fish on the deck.

I doubt any of the list from 15 down is setting the world on fire. Harrell impresses me in the brief bit he played. He picked that ball in the pre-season and took it back for 6. That was a good play. He controlled the hell out of his man, pushed him in the backfield and shed him. He kept awareness of the play, saw the ball, picked it and took it home. That was some real Alan Page stuff. I know people would like to see a lot more from a 1.

Rookies sometimes don't get it. Harrell vastly underestimated where he had to have his cardio. He was in college shape, not pro shape. It's a learning process and he got a big lesson. Sitting a kid like him shows that the coaches know what they are doing. I think we got a good one and we will see big stuff out of him.

Maybe I'm wrong, that wouldn't be a first, either.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Small point of order.

18 Cincinnati Leon Hall CB - Backup

Good catch. NFL.com has him playing 3 and starting 1 game. He must have replaced Jonathan Joseph after the game that Cleveland scored 51 points on them. I'm sure he's playing a lot as a nickelback regardless, but it appears he isn't playing well.

[Harlan Huckleby]

My point is even simpler: grading Harrell at this time is nitwittian.

Obviously he doesn't get a final grade now. For me judgement day arrives next year, same will wait longer to decide if it was a good pick. But it's fair to have an opinion now, we've seen enough to declare whether we like what we see.

Is it premature to offer the opinion that James Jones was a good draft pick? What's fair for the good players is fair for the disappoitments.

And one more point: I don't consider Harrell's injury a good excuse for his 11th position on the DL depth chart. A leg injury, sure. But a repaired bicep tear that has evidently healed? He gets a couple extra weeks to shake off the rust.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You draft someone based on their potential to produce over a career...not the first year.

Right. But that doesn't mean we have to ignore what happens in the first year.

[PackerBlues]

nitwittian? :bow: :lol: Too Funny.

First time I bothered to check out this post. I honestly do not care that JH is not playing. The Packers do not need him right now, and it just means that by the time that we do see him, he should be well rested and healthy. Perhaps the Packers want to save him for the tail end of the season when most O-linemen will be battered and bruised.........Unleash the animal.....Justin Harrell!!!! :worship: Just a thought, lol



If Thompson would have drafted a TE or a RB with the first pick, would we be any better off than we are now? I am not to worried about Harrell, or his pick status right now, M3 has started to earn my respect, and I guess I am just a little more patient with the teams decision making, especially at 3-0. Whatever the reasoning behind keeping Harrell on the bench, I am willing to wait........I do however still have high expectations of him though......he should be healthy, and as a first round pick, I would expect him to be impressive. :!:

[esoxx]

If Harrell had been a gangbuster this past summer, and currently led the team in tackles, you wouldn't hear the nitwits say, "Ya, he's doing well. But we need to wait two years to know whether TT made a good pick."

One can ALWAYS say "time will tell." But it's lame, and against the spirit in which internet forums were founded. That would be the spirit of mouthing off. Stand and deliver!

I agree. I wouldn't go so far as to say nitwits but to cloak and preface every take on a player...that can be done every which way.

The rally cry when BJ Sander was drafted was typically, well if he turns out to be a pro bowler, or if this or that, it was a good pick. I hated the pick based on his leg strength, among other things. BTW, if grandma had balls she'd be grandpa, or is too early to judge that too. :lol:

I have been wrong many times on players, right too. A position can be taken on Harrell. He's a disappointment or he would be on the field in some capacity or least dressing on game days.

TT drafted a player who missed most of his senior year due to a major injury at a position that was the deepest on the team. He was expecting more than seeing Harrell in sweatshirt and jeans on game day. I'm not sure how that helps his development.

[Bretsky]

If Harrell had been a gangbuster this past summer, and currently led the team in tackles, you wouldn't hear the nitwits say, "Ya, he's doing well. But we need to wait two years to know whether TT made a good pick."

One can ALWAYS say "time will tell." But it's lame, and against the spirit in which internet forums were founded. That would be the spirit of mouthing off. Stand and deliver!

I agree. I wouldn't go so far as to say nitwits but to cloak and preface every take on a player...that can be done every which way.

The rally cry when BJ Sander was drafted was typically, well if he turns out to be a pro bowler, or if this or that, it was a good pick. I hated the pick based on his leg strength, among other things. BTW, if grandma had balls she'd be grandpa, or is too early to judge that too. :lol:

I have been wrong many times on players, right too. A position can be taken on Harrell. He's a disappointment or he would be on the field in some capacity or least dressing on game days.

TT drafted a player who missed most of his senior year due to a major injury at a position that was the deepest on the team. He was expecting more than seeing Harrell in sweatshirt and jeans on game day. I'm not sure how that helps his development.


:bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap:

[KYPack]

Small point of order.

18 Cincinnati Leon Hall CB - Backup

Good catch. NFL.com has him playing 3 and starting 1 game. He must have replaced Jonathan Joseph after the game that Cleveland scored 51 points on them. I'm sure he's playing a lot as a nickelback regardless, but it appears he isn't playing well.

He's a rook. And rookie corners get you beat. The Pack has actually had some of the best rookie corners I've ever seen.

Newsome
McKenzie
Buchanon
And the best one, Adderley.

Hall is lost, no confidence, and not a bunch of upside til he gets a clue. He would have been better off in GB, learning at the feet of one of the best vet tandems in the league, Harris and Woodson. They could show the kid every trick in the book.

[oregonpackfan]

An article from the NFL portion of Comcost's Home page gives this quote:

"Defensive tackle Justin Harrell was added to the injury report as questionable with a knee he sprained in practice Wednesday. He aggravated the injury Thursday and didn't practice Friday."

It appears Sunday's game will be game 4 where Harrell will be inactive. :(

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't care if he's not active. At all. The guys in there are doing very well. I just hope that if one of those big boys go down, Harrell will be ready when his name is called.

[Bretsky]

I don't care if he's not active. At all. The guys in there are doing very well. I just hope that if one of those big boys go down, Harrell will be ready when his name is called.

I agree in principal to what you are saying; I just want wins and good ball.

But Colin Cole is not really that good; a decent last guy in the rotation. It's disappointing Harrell cannot pass by Cole.

Hopefully long term, we do sign Williams and Harrell some day becomes part of a young dominant DL.

Time will tell.

[4and12to12and4]

You cannot disagree that drafting almost any other player from #16 on would have given the Packers someone who would have shown more immedately.

I disagree. Few of the players drafted after Harrell are really making any meaningful contribution. Most of the ones that are are actually doing so to their team's DETRIMENT...the team would likely be better with a capable veteran, but is choosing to take the growing pains now to get a quicker payoff in the future or are forced to because of injury.

Our 4 game winning streak to close last season took away a chance to land someone who could make an immediate impact. It is extremely rare to land someone outside of the first 10-15 picks that is a major contributor from week one.

You draft someone based on their potential to produce over a career...not the first year. Most players take 2-4 years to come into their own and make any meaningful contributions...and the vast evidence pertaining to the position we are discussing (DT) shows that almost all rookies take longer than usual to develop properly. The difference in strength and speed, especially what is needed from their own body, is even larger in the trenches than anywhere else on the field for a college player to adjust to.

Once Harrell gets in there, and our rotation becomes even more evolved, our defensive line is going to be rock solid. We will have fresh bodies coming in the fourth quarter blowing guys off the line. I like the pick, right now, because of the chemistry and pressure our line is getting, I just think that MM is letting Harrell fully heal and learn via the sideline and meetings, and he will see action mid season. Then, we will see what he have in a one hundred percent healthy d lineman. Why rush the guy in when that muscle is still probably about 85 per cent right now, and risk further injury, when our line and defense is clicking and pressuring with the rotation we now have? Harrell will be a great addition come midseason, giving guys rest, and allowing us to see him full strength. Until then, patience. MM knows what he's doing.

[Harlan Huckleby]

MM is letting Harrell fully heal and learn via the sideline and meetings, and he will see action mid season. Then, we will see what he have in a one hundred percent healthy d lineman. Why rush the guy in when that muscle is still probably about 85 per cent right now

A bicep tear that was mended one year ago has nothing to do with Harrell's status.

Gilbert Brown played a whole season with a bicep tear, had surgery afterwards. No issues the following season.

I don't believe his arm is 85% strength wise, he's had ample time to rehab to 100%. But even if one arm were a little weaker, that's not a big deal. Driver went into training camp with greatly reduced strength in one shoulder, how's he doing?

I think its legitimate to say that Harrell went into training camp a little rustier than the other rookies back in July. But come-on, the frost is on the pumpkin. Lame excuse.

[RashanGary]

Yup, Harrell is a rookie who is playing in maybe the deepest DT rotation in football. It says more about the guys in front of him that it does about him. It's really too early to say he won't be a really good or even great NFL player.

I somewhat understand the logic that we could be helped more now by bringing in a guy who is better *right now* than what we have. Maybe a TE or a CB. Ted believed that Harrell would be the best player (over the course of his career) than anyone who was available at that time (or so he says). For him to draft a player that would help more now would also hurt later as Harrell develops into the player that Thompson thinks he is.

The logic of many Harrell supporters is that if JH develops into a probowl tackle at some point in his career (probably years 2-6 for DT's), it will have been a really good pick even if it didn't help much the first year.

Look at Johnny Jolly. He didn't do anything in his first year and he's our starting DT this year. It happens at that position. The explosive guys who have that first step might come in and get sacks right away. Young guys are explosive guys. Guys like Harrell depend on strength. Strength comes with man power. Let's give him a little time before we raise the bust flag or the "he sucks" flag.

[Carolina_Packer]

I don't think anyone here is saying that he's already a bust. I believe that everyone on this board is too reasonable and pro football savvy to say something like that. I think many are just surprised at his slow development compared to other rookie first rounders (see list from a previous thread that I put together from nfl.com). Sure, many of those other may not be contributing to wins or their teams success, but they are active for games, if you want to use that as a measuring stick for initial success.

All I'm saying throughout this entire thread is (hypothetically for the sake of argument, and what else do we have?), if TT had the crystal ball to look ahead and see how the D-line was going to develop this past off-season and training camp and the first three weeks of the season, and how JH has not been able to find his place in the rotation, would he still have picked him at #16 this year. Was he that comfortable in JH making little or no impact this year, but hoping/expecting him to be a big contributor in years to come?

If he had known how things were going to go for the DL and for JH so far, would he have chosen someone else? It would be interesting to see his big board now.

[Bretsky]

Yup, Harrell is a rookie who is playing in maybe the deepest DT rotation in football. It says more about the guys in front of him that it does about him


I just look at Colin Cole and an disappointed. Earlier in the year one of the JS guys said the unrestricted free agent would likely see gameday before Harrell.

He's not able to accurately make that statement; but it was shocking to even read it.

We're 3-0 so it's not a biggie as homerism had had an effect on me; it would feel worse if we were 1-2.

But when I step back I'm not sure the record should matter in our views on this.

[Carolina_Packer]

Look at Johnny Jolly. He didn't do anything in his first year and he's our starting DT this year. It happens at that position. The explosive guys who have that first step might come in and get sacks right away. Young guys are explosive guys. Guys like Harrell depend on strength. Strength comes with man power. Let's give him a little time before we raise the bust flag or the "he sucks" flag.

True, but what round was Jolly? 6th? Is it out of line to expect that your 1st rounder, regardless of position is going to be active and contributing? Note, I did not say helping to win ball games, or being the player he will be in years to come, but showing enough off the bat to show why he was so highly regarded to be picked in the first round. I think that is what makes people concerned and perhaps thinking if we were so deep at that position, did that just develop overnight and we didn't know how good we were back in the April draft, or would JH have been chosen no matter what we eventually came to find out about our D-line?

[vince]

(Most) Everyone in this thread is right about that which they are arguing. This thread keeps going in circles around two different arguments about the same person.

[Bretsky]

(Most) Everyone in this thread is right about that which they are arguing. This thread keeps going in circles around two different arguments about the same person.


It's good to bring out the fire here and there with these debates; all this Homer 3-0 stuff makes things too easy around here. :lol:

[Tarlam!]

to be honest, the best move at the time, and I stated it than was to pull the trigger with the Browns.

Hindsight is 20/20, but this was a no brainer for me. TT is my hero, but I don't always agree with my heroes. I would have traded with Cleveland. I bet Harrell would still have been available when we picked.

I am on Bulldogs side here.

I still am in TT's camp regardless of how Harrell turns out. I like Harrel's humility. I still hope we re-sign Williams and remain 11-deep at DT.

[woodbuck27]

Good ol' NFL.com. Here is the 1st round draft results and a list of those players who are active and contributing. I went to each team's depth chart and dragged the mouse cursor over the player's name to show number of games and stats. For O-lineman, it just shows games and games started.

According to this, the only teams not getting anything from their first rounders right now are Oakland, for contract hold-out reasons obviously, Justin Harrell, who is listed 3rd on the depth chart, Brady Quinn, who is a backup QB to Derrick Anderson, and Robert Meachem who has been not been active for a game this year. What's up with those Vols? Late bloomers, I guess.

This is not to say JH won't develop. I sure hope he does, since he's under contract. It simply points out the obvious that he has not made an impact of any kind, and that's concerning. Can he rebound? Sure. Will he make his mark? Should we have seen signs of why he was drafted in the first round? I think so. Have we? Again, this is not to say he won't be something special, just that he has limped from the gate in his career compared to the other first rounders. Is it all related to his injury last year? I don't know, but something is holding back his ability to be an immedate contributor, and you see strong evidence that most of this year's crop have found a way to make an immediate contribution or impact for their respective team. You discount Russell and Quinn because they haven't had the chance to start/play. You cannot disagree that drafting almost any other player from #16 on would have given the Packers someone who would have shown more immedately. That's all I'm saying. I agree with those who say we didn't need him in order to be 3-0, and who knows how many of these guys have had a big impact on their respective teams, but most, if not all have been active and contributing. Hopefully JH can get it in gear.

# Team Player Pos Active or Contributing?
1 Oakland JaMarcus Russell QB Active, late signee
2 Detroit Calvin Johnson WR Active and Contributing
3 Cleveland Joe Thomas OT Active and Contributing
4 Tampa Bay Gaines Adams DE Active and Contributing
5 Arizona Levi Brown OT Active and Contributing
6 Washington LaRon Landry FS Active and Contributing
7 Minnesota Adrian Peterson RB Active and Contributing
8 Atlanta Jamaal Anderson DE Active and Contributing
9 Miami Ted Ginn Jr. WR Active and Contributing
10 Houston Amobi Okoye DT Active and Contributing
11 San Francisco Patrick Willis ILB Active and Contributing
12 Buffalo Marshawn Lynch RB Active and Contributing
13 St. Louis Adam Carriker DE Active and Contributing
14 N.Y. Jets Darrelle Revis CB Active and Contributing, late signee
15 Pittsburgh Lawrence Timmons OLB Active and Contributing
16 Green Bay Justin Harrell DT Not Active
17 Denver Jarvis Moss DE Active and Contributing
18 Cincinnati Leon Hall CB Active and Contributing
19 Tennessee Michael Griffin FS Active and Contributing
20 N.Y. Giants Aaron Ross CB Active and Contributing
21 Jacksonville Reggie Nelson FS Active and Contributing
22 Cleveland Brady Quinn QB Active, has not played
23 Kansas City Dwayne Bowe WR Active and Contributing
24 New England Brandon Meriweather FS Active and Contributing
25 Carolina Jon Beason OLB Active and Contributing
26 Dallas Anthony Spencer DE Active and Contributing
27 New Orleans Robert Meachem WR Not Active
28 San Francisco Joe Staley OT Active and Contributing
29 Baltimore Ben Grubbs G Active, has not played or started
30 San Diego Craig Davis WR Active and Contributing
31 Chicago Greg Olsen TE Injured weeks 1,2 Active/Contributing Wk3
32 Indianapolis Anthony Gonzalez WR Active and Contributing

Outstanding effort put in that post.

Thank You, Carolina_Packer.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Jolly was injured last year, and has turned into a real find this year. Hopefully, Harrell sees the same type of progress. Interesting take. I hadn't thought of it. Maybe he's the next Donnell Washington, but I won't write him off. His character was supposed to be a big-time strength coming into the league.


Q: Tim Chase of Beaver Dam - Bob, Great job as always. I am glad some of us saw the potential of the Packers this year. My question is about Justin Harrell though. Do you believe the Packers are trying to get him healthy, in better shape and shorten the season for him? Often it seems rookies hit the wall. He doesn't have a 16 game schedule any more and will be much more productive and healthy when a few of the other line-man get nicked up. And as long as we are on rookies when is the last time a rookie kicker has looked as good as Crosby has?

A: Bob McGinn - TC: No ulterior motives on Harrell. He just isn't good enough to be on the field. Daniel Muir is at least as deserving as Harrell, based on six weeks this summer. Barring injury, Harrell probably will be inactive every week. His job is to get better the best way he can, watch and learn from pros like Pickett and Williams and the rest, and make a move like Jolly did during the '07 OS and summer. ... Crosby has been very good. Not sure of history of rookie kickers.

[KYPack]

Hey kids

Can I pull an old Forum trick and reverse myself in the same thread?

This "sprained knee" bit that kept him out of the Viking game is giving me the willies.

Multiple injuries that keep ya off the field is very "David Martinesque".

Tough guys find a way to get on the field. Busts sit in a tub.

Is it happening, er ain't it?

[esoxx]

Sprained knee or no sprained knee he wasn't seeing the field anyhow, or dressing for that matter.

[TheRaven]

I love how people are condemning this guy 3 games (now 4, but most of it came before our last game) into his first season. People are so quick to judge and cement an opinion based off nothing.

It doesn't really matter at this point whom we could have picked. We have Harrell. Let's see how the guy turns out in a few years. I am of the opinion that you win games with your lines on both sides of the ball, so I have no issues with adding some talented depth to the line and seeing what happens. If he busts, that happens too. As long as TT can keep producing solid classes overall, I don't mind.

TT has built a nice, young team here. He has made a lot of moves to put us in a position to contend. We still have strives to make, but we are so much better off than we were three years ago. And if you want to question that..then just look at this: 4-0.

[MadtownPacker]

After watching peterson this last sunday I dont think Harrell was such a bad idea.

[Carolina_Packer]

I love how people are condemning this guy 3 games (now 4, but most of it came before our last game) into his first season. People are so quick to judge and cement an opinion based off nothing.

It doesn't really matter at this point whom we could have picked. We have Harrell. Let's see how the guy turns out in a few years. I am of the opinion that you win games with your lines on both sides of the ball, so I have no issues with adding some talented depth to the line and seeing what happens. If he busts, that happens too. As long as TT can keep producing solid classes overall, I don't mind.

TT has built a nice, young team here. He has made a lot of moves to put us in a position to contend. We still have strives to make, but we are so much better off than we were three years ago. And if you want to question that..then just look at this: 4-0.

I don't know if anyone is comdemning Harrell, or the Harrell pick. It is at least notable that OUR first rounder, like Meachem for NO has not sniffed the field, and that our guy can't crack the DL rotation. It is curious at least. I do think it raises some concern if the first rounder, which most equate with high pay, high promise has limped from the gate, while other first rounders have gotten off to good starts in their career.

It's possible the team is just holding him back, almost like a red-shirt year in college, since they don't need him in the rotation. I understand that not all draft picks work out, and that he was a guy for the future, but I don't think people can so quickly dismissive of the point...if he was the best player available on our board when we picked him (and I'll take TT at his word on that one) then why haven't we yet seen strong indications of the kind of player he can be? Why is he mired on the depth chart? It's one thing if they are deliberately holding him out, it's another thing (and concern) if his talent wasn't good enough to make some kind of impact and show why he was worthy of being a number 1. That's not condemning him for his career, that's just expressing concern, and I think rightfully so. We'll never know if it was something lacking on Harrell's part to break into the rotation or if it was the team deliberately holding him out to save him for the future because they don't really talk about such things publicly. The other point that is not lost is, it sure would be nice in the parity, win-now NFL to have a draft pick, especially a first rounder who could provide more of an immediate impact. I understand that's not Harrell, and if you gave TT truth serum, he may admit that he didn't expect much from Harrell in year 1. With more questions than answers on offense, it sure would have been nice to have some more offensive help, but it is what it is, and we move on from here and are just glad to be 4-0 despite nothing to date from JH.

[TheRaven]

I don't know if anyone is comdemning Harrell, or the Harrell pick.

I don't disagree with a lot you say, but read this thread again. People have been all over him and TT for this. And not just from a 'Hmm..thats curious' type of approach either.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Gilbert Brown played a whole season with a bicep tear, had surgery afterwards. No issues the following season.

That gives me an idea. Why don't the Packers send Harrell to the nearest Old Country Buffet and tell him not to leave until he's put on another 50 or 60 pounds?

Maybe then he'd have a chance to be Gravedigger II.

[Freak Out]

Gilbert Brown played a whole season with a bicep tear, had surgery afterwards. No issues the following season.

That gives me an idea. Why don't the Packers send Harrell to the nearest Old Country Buffet and tell him not to leave until he's put on another 50 or 60 pounds?

Maybe then he'd have a chance to be Gravedigger II.

The problem is he'd be digging his own grave.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Gilbert Brown played a whole season with a bicep tear, had surgery afterwards. No issues the following season.

That gives me an idea. Why don't the Packers send Harrell to the nearest Old Country Buffet and tell him not to leave until he's put on another 50 or 60 pounds?

Maybe then he'd have a chance to be Gravedigger II.

The problem is he'd be digging his own grave.

True, but until he fell into it he'd be a hell of a load to move off the line.

[Carolina_Packer]

I don't know if anyone is comdemning Harrell, or the Harrell pick.

I don't disagree with a lot you say, but read this thread again. People have been all over him and TT for this. And not just from a 'Hmm..thats curious' type of approach either.

I think many want as close to a guarantee, lock, immediate helper in the first round as can be found. TT's pick gets an incomplete. It is interesting how he took the approach of a team that was drafting as if they already were stocked up, when to a person after last season most would have said the Packers were still building. I think there is an association between building teams and drafting for need vs. teams who are more successful at the end of the draft, like the Patriots, Colts, who might take more developmental guys, who may or may not impact the short-term.

[Partial]

My hope is that Harrell turns into a player next year. He has the size, strength, speed, etc. One reason that our most recent first round linemen didn't succeed was a lack of size (Jamal Reynolds).

If you watch the kids highlights, it is apparent that he is very good at shedding blockers and disrupting plays.

That fact, paired with an ideal physique, great strength, and a solid work ethic should lead to a successful career.

[Harlan Huckleby]

My hope is that Harrell turns into a player next year. He has the size, strength, speed, etc.

I've heard he is very explosive and physically impressive.

He was good in college one season, so he can play football.

Hard to understand what happened this summer. But it seems likely that he'll come around.

[hoosier]

Hindsight is 20/20, but this was a no brainer for me. TT is my hero, but I don't always agree with my heroes. I would have traded with Cleveland. I bet Harrell would still have been available when we picked.


I doubt he would have lasted till fifth pick of 2nd round. And since for the moment at least the Browns seem to have found an offense, next year's 1 from them might not be so attractive after all.

[HarveyWallbangers]

And since for the moment at least the Browns seem to have found an offense, next year's 1 from them might not be so attractive after all.

Good point. While I'm no believer in the Browns, opinions will turn greatly if Cleveland doesn't finish with a top 10 pick. You don't trade the #16 pick in round 1 one year and not get a guaranteed top 10 pick the next year. It's a crapshoot every year in the NFL, so you can't be sure that a team will be as awful as you think from year to year.

[Sparkey]

Everybody is posting "if Harrell is good next year everything will be fine." Or worse yet, "if he is an all-pro in three years, it will be a good pick."

What a forum full of nitwits. :lol:

If Robert Fergusson is an all-pro in three years, that decision to cut him will sure be a bad one. If BJack is good next season, he will be a good 2nd round pick. If I win the lottery I'll surely get laid.



..If a buzzard had a radio in his ass, there would be music in the air..

[MJZiggy]

If I win the lottery I'll surely get laid.



Not necessarily...

[Harlan Huckleby]

If I win the lottery I'll surely get laid.



Not necessarily...

Ziggy, you may be my primary love interest, but I am working other options. Plenty of fish in the ocean, sugar.

[Lurker64]

I bet Harrell would still have been available when we picked..

I believe that the Broncos stated on the record that if Harrell was there when they picked, they would have taken him. Denver was targeting DL in the first round, and after GB took Harrell, there was one DL left that was high on their board, which is why they had to trade up to get Jarvis Moss immediately after GB picked.

So there's approximately no chance whatsoever that he'd be there in the 2nd.

[Bretsky]

I bet Harrell would still have been available when we picked..

I believe that the Broncos stated on the record that if Harrell was there when they picked, they would have taken him. Denver was targeting DL in the first round, and after GB took Harrell, there was one DL left that was high on their board, which is why they had to trade up to get Jarvis Moss immediately after GB picked.

So there's approximately no chance whatsoever that he'd be there in the 2nd.


The article stated Denver had targeted three DL and they intended to get one of them; if they needed to move up they would have. When the second (Harrell) was selected they chose to trade up to make sure they'd get the third (Jarvis Moss).

I don't think they ever stated who their preference was or in what order.

My guess is the third DL was Adam Carraeker

[esoxx]

There's no "on the record" when it comes to the draft. That goes for pre and post draft comments.

[4and12to12and4]

I haven't read one post on this thread, I am just inspired to keep it at the top, I think it may rank in the top 5 for replies. Maybe we can keep it going 'til the end of the season, just for fun, and end up with over 50,000 replies. :oops:

[Fritz]

If I win the lottery I'll surely get laid.



Not necessarily...

Ziggy, you may be my primary love interest, but I am working other options. Plenty of fish in the ocean, sugar.

Are you spending all your money on lottery tickets again, Huck?

[Harlan Huckleby]

nah, it's more a matter of casting an increasingly broad net. Internationalize, that's the secret. Age is just a number, and speaking English is overrated. Love is important to me, I can't think of anything more worth paying for.

[woodbuck27]

It's not so much a rip on the Packers as it is a rip on 3T. Before the pick, after the pick, it doesn't really matter. There are not very many supporters of taking Harrell in the first round. More over, there were more pressing needs at the time and once again 3T did what he wanted and not what was in the best interests of the team. If we go 4-0 or 19-0 or 3-13, it doesn't matter. It was a wasted pick then and it is a wasted pick now. That's why I asked how much his contract was worth. How much on the hook are we for this guy and for how many years if we end up cutting him? There were much better options on the board and 3T took the worst option available. It isn't helping us win games sure, but we added depth at the only position we had depth. And people call this guy smart?

If Harrell makes the Pro Bowl in 3 years was it a wasted pick? and coming back and saying it won't happen is an invalid answer. So is saying he won't crack the lineup.

No ! No ! No !

First round draft picks are chosen to make an immediate impact for the team and not sit on the bench for any reason except an injury.

If Justin Harrell was a solid choice we would not be even having this disussion.

The last thing we needed was another DT out of round 1. If TT was in tune he would have gone safety if he desired an upgrade on our D.

Maybe TT might have looked at CB.

I will never agree that picking Justin Harrell was his best move.

Our only hope is that Harrell does prove some value later this or next season. That is beside the point as we needed a productive player in 2007 in round 1.

GO PACK GO !

[Carolina_Packer]

Yes, I hope he pans out too. I do understand about the development cycle for D-lineman. Few come in and do much right away. I think we also found a player in Johnny Jolly and consistent play from the line, so Harrell is not immediately needed. I've also heard it's hard to find good D-lineman, so sometimes in order to build future depth, sometimes you have to draft, stash and develop. Perhaps some positions you imagine more of an immediate contribution, perhaps not D-lineman as much as others.

Like I've wondered, if TT knew pre-draft, what he knows now about their development, would he have taken Harrell, or might he have gone for a Leon Hall? How well could Hall have done as the nickel corner?

Ah well, this thread is played out, I guess. We'll just have to see what the guy can do when he has the chance to do it.