Along With Butkus, Best Players I've Ever Seen

[The Shadow]

But we shouldn't kid ourselves that athletes really mean it when they smile and wave at those who take their records.
There was one star athlete who did not engage in this ritual: Jim Brown. In the early 1980s, as Walter Payton and Franco Harris approached the NFL all-time rushing record he then held, Brown made no pretense of rooting for them. "He can break the record at his convenience because he has the cooperation of his organization," Brown said of Harris. "That's not a feat by my standards. It has nothing to do with overall performance." When Harris was shown the door by Pittsburgh and signed for a final stat-padding season with Seattle, Brown openly derided him. As Payton dragged out his career, Brown sniped that Sweetness was "just hanging around" to break his record. At one point, Brown, who was approaching age 50, threatened to return to the NFL to improve his numbers if Payton or Harris got the record -- and Jim Brown being Jim Brown, he might have pulled it off. Today, Brown is down to eighth all-time in rushing, and as far as I could determine, he never has pretended not to be ticked off about it. Brown still holds the all-time record for yards per carry at 5.2 and is the sole rusher in NFL history to average more than 100 yards per game. I think it would be just as well if no one ever threatened those marks.

[Rastak]

I like Jim Brown. He was on NFL network a couple years ago and they were debating celebrations and Brenston Bucker says "it's fun, the people love it" or something like that and Jim Brown says "A 300 pound man shaking his behind on tv. How dignified is that? It used to be about playing, not it's about all kinds of bafoonery" or something like that.


Damn, Buckner just looked at him like WTF? Funny as hell.


Jim Brown was outstanding. He quit before I was old enough to appreceate his game.


edit: And yea you are right he cared, he was the guy who challenged Franco Harris to a footrace as he approached Payton's record.

[Bretsky]

I think Barry Sanders was the best player I've ever seen.

[Rastak]

I think Barry Sanders was the best player I've ever seen.


I'm not a huge Sanders guy, he was a top tier guy but he isn't the best I ever saw. Some of the best I ever saw......

OJ Simpson
Eric Dickerson
Alan Page
Dick Butkus
Joe Greene
Jerry Rice



In college, my alltime favorites are Ricky Bell and Archie Griffin.

[retailguy]

Lawrence Taylor

Deacon Jones

[RashanGary]

Brett Favre
Jerry Rice
Barry Sanders
Payton Manning
Reggie White
Deion Sanders
John Elway
Randy Moss

[Harlan Huckleby]

Jim Brown. In the early 1980s, as Walter Payton and Franco Harris approached the NFL

If Thompson was worth a damn maybe we'd see some running backs like this in Green Bay. But no. No. Little frickin munchkins.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Favre, Payton, White are the greats I've seen play.

[The Shadow]

Young pups!
The trite 'man among boys' phrase has become overused and watered down.
Yet Brown, whose career I only followed from 1960 on, WAS the real deal.
No running back I've seen in the years that followed ever approached his greatness. Sayers came closest - but was a distant 2nd. Simpson, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson, and Smith were excellent players - but did not approach what I saw with my own two eyes in Cleveland.
Butkus I followed from his rookie year all the ay through. Best defensive player I've ever seen; he was a veritable force of nature. The only player I ever saw that inspired genuine fear in the opposition. An unstoppable force till the knees finally gave way.
He, and Brown, seemed to transcend the game.

[Rastak]

Young pups!
The trite 'man among boys' phrase has become overused and watered down.
Yet Brown, whose career I only followed from 1960 on, WAS the real deal.
No running back I've seen in the years that followed ever approached his greatness. Sayers came closest - but was a distant 2nd. Simpson, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson, and Smith were excellent players - but did not approach what I saw with my own two eyes in Cleveland.
Butkus I followed from his rookie year all the ay through. Best defensive player I've ever seen; he was a veritable force of nature. The only player I ever saw that inspired genuine fear in the opposition. An unstoppable force till the knees finally gave way.
He, and Brown, seemed to transcend the game.

Nice list Lamont. Black Magic was my favorite back of all time and I didn't see him as much as I wished I had. Same with Brown. I was awful young.

Butkus was great, Page was unbelieveably quick as a DT. Merlin Olson was something to watch too. Mean Joe Greene. Jack Lambert.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think Barry Sanders was the best player I've ever seen.

I'm not a huge Sanders guy, he was a top tier guy but he isn't the best I ever saw.

I agree. Too many carries where he got 0 or 1 yards. He wasn't a guy that would take it up into the hole when you needed a couple of yards. Most exciting RB ever? Hell yeah.

I still rank Jim Brown as the best RB of all-time. Watch him and tell me he doesn't look like a guy who could play in today's game.

I'd actually go with Walter Payton as the second best all-around RB. I also think Marshall Faulk is underrated when talking about the best RBs of all-time.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Butkus I followed from his rookie year all the ay through. Best defensive player I've ever seen; he was a veritable force of nature. The only player I ever saw that inspired genuine fear in the opposition. An unstoppable force till the knees finally gave way.
He, and Brown, seemed to transcend the game.

I've heard some say Nitschke was better than Butkus, and Nitschke even made the all-decade team (or whatever team it was) over Butkus at that time. Why do you think Nitschke won those accolades back then, but now Butkus is seen as the better player? Watching the old film, it sure looked like Nitschke was every bit the terror that Butkus was.

[Bretsky]

I think Barry Sanders was the best player I've ever seen.

I'm not a huge Sanders guy, he was a top tier guy but he isn't the best I ever saw.

I agree. Too many carries where he got 0 or 1 yards. He wasn't a guy that would take it up into the hole when you needed a couple of yards. Most exciting RB ever? Hell yeah.

I still rank Jim Brown as the best RB of all-time. Watch him and tell me he doesn't look like a guy who could play in today's game.

I'd actually go with Walter Payton as the second best all-around RB. I also think Marshall Faulk is underrated when talking about the best RBs of all-time.


I've always felt Barry Sanders are Waltar Payton were the top that I had remembered

I never saw Jim Brown so I'm not comfortable with where to rate him

[Rastak]

I think Barry Sanders was the best player I've ever seen.

I'm not a huge Sanders guy, he was a top tier guy but he isn't the best I ever saw.

I agree. Too many carries where he got 0 or 1 yards. He wasn't a guy that would take it up into the hole when you needed a couple of yards. Most exciting RB ever? Hell yeah.

I still rank Jim Brown as the best RB of all-time. Watch him and tell me he doesn't look like a guy who could play in today's game.

I'd actually go with Walter Payton as the second best all-around RB. I also think Marshall Faulk is underrated when talking about the best RBs of all-time.


I've always felt Barry Sanders are Waltar Payton were the top that I had remembered

I never saw Jim Brown so I'm not comfortable with where to rate him

What about Eric Dickerson? He flamed out quick but damn, in his prime I'd take him over Sanders. As for Payton, I still say he's the second best back to play for the Bears.....

[The Shadow]

I think Barry Sanders was the best player I've ever seen.

I'm not a huge Sanders guy, he was a top tier guy but he isn't the best I ever saw.

I agree. Too many carries where he got 0 or 1 yards. He wasn't a guy that would take it up into the hole when you needed a couple of yards. Most exciting RB ever? Hell yeah.

I still rank Jim Brown as the best RB of all-time. Watch him and tell me he doesn't look like a guy who could play in today's game.

I'd actually go with Walter Payton as the second best all-around RB. I also think Marshall Faulk is underrated when talking about the best RBs of all-time.


I've always felt Barry Sanders are Waltar Payton were the top that I had remembered

I never saw Jim Brown so I'm not comfortable with where to rate him

What about Eric Dickerson? He flamed out quick but damn, in his prime I'd take him over Sanders. As for Payton, I still say he's the second best back to play for the Bears.....

I concur; watched entire careers of both Sayers & Payton.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Sorry, but longevity plays a part in it. Sayers didn't play long enough. Didn't he only have about 3-4 healthy years. Payton was a warrior.

I just can't put Dickerson in those top 5. I remember him being a fumbler and I don't remember him catching the ball that well. Dickerson only had one year where he averaged more than 4.6 yards/carry.

[The Shadow]

Sorry, but longevity plays a part in it. Sayers didn't play long enough. Didn't he only have about 3-4 healthy years. Payton was a warrior.

I just can't put Dickerson in those top 5. I remember him being a fumbler and I don't remember him catching the ball that well. Dickerson only had one year where he averaged more than 4.6 yards/carry.

Payton was a threat to go 25 yards every time he touched the ball.
Sayers was a threat to go the distance every single time he touched the rock.
It was amazing. He was truly electric.
I believe he played 6 years before the knee injury.

[Rastak]

Sorry, but longevity plays a part in it. Sayers didn't play long enough. Didn't he only have about 3-4 healthy years. Payton was a warrior.

I just can't put Dickerson in those top 5. I remember him being a fumbler and I don't remember him catching the ball that well. Dickerson only had one year where he averaged more than 4.6 yards/carry.


I gotta crash but longevity doesn't play into who I think the best player I ever saw was. OJ Simpson and Eric Dickerson were electric. Sayers and Brown amazing. Other guys just played a long time....(Emmit Smith, Franco Harris, Walter Payton etc etc etc).

[cheesner]

I think Barry Sanders was the best player I've ever seen.

I'm not a huge Sanders guy, he was a top tier guy but he isn't the best I ever saw.

I agree. Too many carries where he got 0 or 1 yards. He wasn't a guy that would take it up into the hole when you needed a couple of yards. Most exciting RB ever? Hell yeah.

I still rank Jim Brown as the best RB of all-time. Watch him and tell me he doesn't look like a guy who could play in today's game.

I'd actually go with Walter Payton as the second best all-around RB. I also think Marshall Faulk is underrated when talking about the best RBs of all-time.I agree whole heartedly. Sanders was way over-rated. He would break a big one most games and that makes great highlight ESPN material, but he was responsible for killing many drives per game by losing a couple of yards on consecutive carries. If he was so great, why did the Lions suck all those years while he was playing?

Someone not mentioned, that should be, is Ladanian Thomlinson. Okay, he is having a down year so far, but last year I would say he ranks up there with Jim Brown (Who was the best)

[The Leaper]

I agree whole heartedly. Sanders was way over-rated. He would break a big one most games and that makes great highlight ESPN material, but he was responsible for killing many drives per game by losing a couple of yards on consecutive carries. If he was so great, why did the Lions suck all those years while he was playing?

Because Wayne Fontes was their coach and Scott Mitchell was their QB?

Barry is easily one of the top 5 RBs of all time. The guy could've put up more yards than Emmitt Smith had he played a full career...and his OL was VASTLY INFERIOR to the studs Smith had to run behind. Put Barry behind the Cowboy OLs and he runs for 30,000 yards in his career.

Who cares if Sanders wasn't a strong runner? The guy single-handedly forced any defense to keep 8 men in the box at all times. If the Lions would have had the smarts to find any kind of offensive threat to put around him, they could have created an unstoppable offense.

To think that Green Bay could've had both Sanders AND Favre. Yikes.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Who mentioned Emmitt Smith? Personally, I don't consider Smith a top 5 RB.

Sanders may not have had great OL (although he didn't necessarily have horrible lines either). He did benefit from playing in a run and shoot type of offense in his career--with the likes of Herman Moore, Johnnie Morton, Brett Perriman, etc. opening up things for him.

Barry wasn't dealt the bad hand that a guy like Payton was. Payton had nothing around him.

[ZachMN]

My father said that Sam Huff was unequivicolally better than Nitschke. Also, he said that Huff and Jim Taylor just hated each other and basically had grudge matches when playing against one another. In an old film, I saw Huff hit Taylor after Taylor was already down by two other Giants. IT looked personal......
no call either....

[KYPack]

My father said that Sam Huff was unequivicolally better than Nitschke. Also, he said that Huff and Jim Taylor just hated each other and basically had grudge matches when playing against one another. In an old film, I saw Huff hit Taylor after Taylor was already down by two other Giants. IT looked personal......
no call either....

Dad's wrong. Huff was a solid player & both of 'em were HOFers. But Ray was a SPECIAL guy. A lot of Huff's reputation was built on the fact that he played in NY and got 10 times the media coverage Ray did.

They were both great, but Huff unequivocally better than Nitschke?

NFW.

Ask the old players, most of 'em would laugh. Ray had a game in, game out ferocity I've yet to see. Ray Lewis had some of that, but not for the length of time that Ray did.

[oregonpackfan]

My father said that Sam Huff was unequivicolally better than Nitschke. Also, he said that Huff and Jim Taylor just hated each other and basically had grudge matches when playing against one another. In an old film, I saw Huff hit Taylor after Taylor was already down by two other Giants. IT looked personal......
no call either....

As a "Senior" poster, I agree with KY that Nitschke was a much better MLB than Huff. Huff gained much of his fame with his personal challenges with Jim Taylor.

I also would rank Nitschke higher than Butkus. Ray had more range than Nitschke.

[mraynrand]

Best Football Player ever:


http://www.ottograham.net/images/handoff.JPG


"In 1950, the Browns, 49ers, and Colts were absorbed into the NFL. Commissioner Bert Bell, intent on teaching the upstarts a lesson, scheduled their regular season debut against two time World Champion Philadelphia. Otto's first pass in the NFL was a touchdown as the Browns stunned the Eagles. The Browns lost two games on their way to a 30-28 Championship victory over the Los Angeles Rams, the team which had defected from Cleveland after winning the '45 title. Lou "The Toe" Groza kicked the game winning field goal giving the Brown's their first NFL title and Otto his first big league MVP.

The Browns fought their way to the title game again in '51, '52 and '53 but lost to the Rams and Lions twice. Rebounding in '54, with Otto throwing three scores and running for three more, the Browns buried the Lions, 56-10. Retiring after the season, Otto was coaxed back for one more year and led the Cleveland franchise to it's final Championship under his tenure, throwing for two scores and running for two more in a career ending 38-14 victory over the Rams. Named league MVP for the second time, Otto retired at age 33 after ten seasons."

[ZachMN]

My father said that Sam Huff was unequivicolally better than Nitschke. Also, he said that Huff and Jim Taylor just hated each other and basically had grudge matches when playing against one another. In an old film, I saw Huff hit Taylor after Taylor was already down by two other Giants. IT looked personal......
no call either....

Dad's wrong. Huff was a solid player & both of 'em were HOFers. But Ray was a SPECIAL guy. A lot of Huff's reputation was built on the fact that he played in NY and got 10 times the media coverage Ray did.

They were both great, but Huff unequivocally better than Nitschke?

NFW.

Ask the old players, most of 'em would laugh. Ray had a game in, game out ferocity I've yet to see. Ray Lewis had some of that, but not for the
length of time that Ray did.

Fair enough, I can't say. Its like the 'bias' we hear about still. Here in MN last year before Morneau won the MVP all the local rags and sports guys were reading stories from the Big Apple about how Morneau wasn't as good as Jeter blah blah blah so...the more things change the more they stay the same I guess

[HarveyWallbangers]

Morneau is a good player, and I'm glad he won the MVP over Jeter, but he was a weak winner last year. The top players on the top AL teams had down years last year. Normally, it takes a year like ARod had this year or Pujols had last year to win MVP. I'm happy for Morneau though. He seems like a good guy. He was a little disappointing this year. Prince Fielder had a better year this year than Morneau did last year, and he won't win MVP.

[Carolina_Packer]

To think that Green Bay could've had both Sanders AND Favre. Yikes.

Speaking of overrated...Tony Mandarich could not be reached for comment. Yeah, that one makes me wince every time I think about it.

[The Shadow]

My father said that Sam Huff was unequivicolally better than Nitschke. Also, he said that Huff and Jim Taylor just hated each other and basically had grudge matches when playing against one another. In an old film, I saw Huff hit Taylor after Taylor was already down by two other Giants. IT looked personal......
no call either....

As a "Senior" poster, I agree with KY that Nitschke was a much better MLB than Huff. Huff gained much of his fame with his personal challenges with Jim Taylor.

I also would rank Nitschke higher than Butkus. Ray had more range than Nitschke.

Huff gained fame when a tv network aired a show called "The Violent World of Sam Huff".
Nitschke was superior.

[Noodle]

I used to dig watching Larry Czonka with the Dolphins. The guy was as close to Bronco Nagurski as we'll ever see. One of the last great fullbacks in the game, a crunching runner, and tough as nails.

Also, Fred Biletnikoff was a flat out player.

Ol' Jack Lambert was in the Nitschke mold, complete with fangs. One bad ass mfer.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Shadow DOES know. Jim Brown was the greatest all-time rusher of the football over his career. He was the Cleveland Browns in his era. He made them a contender almost single-handedly. He was powerful, explosive, could break a long one at anytime, consistent, money. And he could catch the ball. Did he ever get hurt? Doesn't seem like it.

I always regarded Nitschke and Butkus as the best middle linebackers of all time. Not much difference between them in ferocity or desire. Still, my favorite linebacker of all time is Dave Robinson. He was big, fast and a game breaker. He played way before his time. I didn't get to see a lot of Lawrence Taylor, but Robinson was every bit as dominant from what I remember and saw with my own eyes.

Sam Huff? A pretender and cheap-shot artist. You didn't game plan against him. You watched your back.

However, if we're just considering "football players," regardless of position -- by this I mean guys who could just flat out play, had a nose for the game, had courage, talent, and could make a difference in every game they appeared in -- these are the guys who would be picked first if all the players in history were standing around in a school yard choosing sides -- I'd choose Brett Favre first. He's the best "player" I've ever seen. Paul Hornung would be a close second.

If you needed to gain 5 yards in a make or break situation, yeah I'd hand the ball off to Jim Brown. And if I had to stop Brown, sure I'd trust Dick Butkus or Ray Nitschke to make the stop, take your pick. But if I needed a game-winning TD, I'd hand the ball to Brett Favre or Paul Hornung and watch, no question. Both are/were at their best in the clutch. Both are/were a pleasure to watch play the game. They're pure winners.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Best Football Player ever:

http://www.ottograham.net/images/handoff.JPG



Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!

I have two claims to fame in sports, and you've given me an excuse to tell both stories.

I was a pretty good wrestler when I was a whipper-snapper. My first story is I beat Tim Krumrie in high school wrestling (it was before he got really good) Later I wrestled heavy weight at a college where Otto Graham was athletic director, recently retired as football coach. He tried to convince me to play football. (He had no idea that I am crappy at football, never had explosiveness in the legs.)

I scorned Otto Graham! :lol:

[HarveyWallbangers]

My first story is I beat Tim Krumrie in high school wrestling

Did you play football and shut down Darren Charles also?
:D

Cool stories.

[the_idle_threat]

You "Scored" on Otto Graham? :? :shock:

[Harlan Huckleby]

Did you play football and shut down Darren Charles also?

oh man, that was the best story ever. I really miss Tank, no kidding. If only to watch the veins in KYPack's forehead pop out.

[Noodle]

Blue Dog, I'm a big Otto Graham fan, so tell me, was he a good guy, a jerk, full of himself or what? Throw us a friggin' bone here, will ya?

[mraynrand]

My athletic claim to fame with respect to the Packers is that I took a charge from Darrel Thompson playing intramural B-Ball at the U. Later I scored a three point play off him - he fouled me hard on a drive in the lane - sent me flying across the floor and into the wall behind the backboard. Came over, pulled me up and said he was sorry.

Oh, BTW, He later kicked the shit out of Darren Charles.

[Zool]

I played a few pickup games of football with Darryl back when we were in HS. He was a man amongst boys out there.

[woodbuck27]

Well easy for me.

Top of my list are:

Brett Favre
Ray Nitschke
Reggie White
Sterling Sharpe
Gayle Sayers
Fran Tarkenton

[mraynrand]

Blue Dog, I'm a big Otto Graham fan, so tell me, was he a good guy, a jerk, full of himself or what? Throw us a friggin' bone here, will ya?

Yeah, tell more. Otto was a frickin' stud. What was it - 6 NFL championship games, winning three and I think 5 championships in the AAFL (or whatever it was called). He also played both ways, getting quite a few INTs. Plus, I love it that he's wearing #60.

[mraynrand]

Later I wrestled heavy weight at a college where Otto Graham was athletic director, recently retired as football coach.

Wasn't this the Coast Guard Academy? Don't tell us you're actually a serviceman in disguise. Semper paratus 'Always ready', isn't that the coast guard motto?

[Noodle]

Plus, I love it that he's wearing #60.
Exactly! That right there tells you he was just a flat out player. A lot of folks who know put Graham at the top of their lists for greatest QB of all time.

This got me thinking some more. Don't folks recall how terrifying LT was in his day? Dude absolutely changed the game, as much if not more than Reggie.

I should also give some respect to Deion Sanders. Not a hitter, but the guy was poetry in motion, sort of a Gayle Sayers at DB/PR. His hype overshadows what a really good player he was.

And how can Bo Jackson not be on a short list? I'll never forget his TD run where he kept going all the way through the tunnel.

[The Shadow]

I once wrestled Pam Oliver.
She kicked my ass.

[Noodle]

Well, to be fair to you, she probably had 50 pounds on you.

[Harlan Huckleby]

My athletic claim to fame with respect to the Packers is that I took a charge from Darrel Thompson playing intramural B-Ball at the U.

I came almost that close. I was manning the Darrel Thompson Fan Club. (Sort of joke on the old Packer Internet News group) and his dad used to correspond with me in email. He was in Rochester, MN.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Later I wrestled heavy weight at a college where Otto Graham was athletic director, recently retired as football coach.
Wasn't this the Coast Guard Academy? Don't tell us you're actually a serviceman in disguise. Semper paratus 'Always ready', isn't that the coast guard motto?

ya, that was the Coast Guard Academy. Otto Graham was a Coast Guard officer. I'm not sure if that was an honorary deal or if he actually served. (I supposed if Willie Mays was available, they'd make him Admiral Willie Mays and send him out recruiting.)

He was personable and gentle-voiced, fatherly sort of guy. Not u-rah-rah. He also looked like a movie star. I remember being nervous, not because he was famous, I didn't know Otto Graham from Graham Cracker. I was 18, to me the Seniors were worldly old men to be feared. An actual officer was a god. I didn't want to admit I stunk at football, didn't want to tell this towering figure "no", I think I just kept quiet and never got back to him.

[Harlan Huckleby]

dp

[Freak Out]

Best player I've ever seen? I have never seen Otto Graham play thats for sure.

Brett Favre

Joe Montana

Jerry Rice

Barry Sanders

OJ

Tarkenton

Marino

[Freak Out]

Best player I've ever seen? I have never seen Otto Graham play thats for sure.

Brett Favre

Joe Montana

Jerry Rice

Barry Sanders

OJ

Tarkenton

Marino

...and I think I should add Marcus Allen in there.

as far as a defensive player goes I would have to say..

Butkus/Nitschke

LT

Deacon Jones

Reggie White

Mel Blount

Bruce Smith was damn good.

It's hard to put guys like this in any real order...they all changed the game in some way.