Defensive line ranks among NFL's best

[HarveyWallbangers]

Defensive line ranks among NFL's best
Bob McGinn, JSO

Green Bay - Even now, as the Green Bay Packers line up with their best defensive line in a decade, much of the focus is on Justin Harrell.

That's kind of the way it goes these days in the National Football League, where just about everyone not only wants to play general manager but thinks he could be a good one, too.

The hard-core fantasy football players, along with some old-fashioned fans, tend to evaluate the real general managers on moves that don't pan out while conveniently glossing over those that do.

Harrell? Reported out of shape. Came across as somewhat naïve, maybe too nice. Wasn't prepared for the tempo of an NFL training camp. And now he's hurt.

Is he the first-round bust many doomsayers already have penciled him in as? He shouldn't be. If Harrell learns how to push himself and discovers what it takes to be a pro, he should turn into a solid starter.

Whether that happens any time soon remains to be seen. It isn't going to be easy for Harrell or any of the other backups to start on this defensive line, which might not be as good from top to bottom as New England, Jacksonville and San Diego but certainly rates in that next tier along with Tennessee, Minnesota, Detroit, Philadelphia, Carolina, Indianapolis, Baltimore, Chicago and Pittsburgh.

"I think Green Bay may have the best defensive linemen in all of football," said James Lofton, the Chargers' wide receivers coach who saw the Packers in Week 3. "That six-, seven-man rotation they're able to throw in there, those guys are really good. That's the strength of that defense. I know the corners are veteran players but those D-linemen are great."

The last time anyone was saying the Packers had a great defensive line was 1996 when they won the Super Bowl. But by the time Mike Sherman took over in 2000, the unit had hit hard times.

During the next six seasons, Sherman made dozens of decisions regarding the defensive line. The two that will live in infamy were the first-round selection of Jamal Reynolds, made in conjunction with lame-duck GM Ron Wolf, and the unrestricted free-agent signing of Joe Johnson.

When Reynolds and Johnson turned out to be horrendous mistakes, it took time for the Packers to recover. That's why Thompson didn't appear to inherit much of a defensive line when he replaced Sherman as GM in January 2005. At the same time, the new defensive coordinator, Jim Bates, couldn't stop bubbling about the talent in the defensive line.

No one knew it then but Bates basically was right. Five defensive-line survivors from the '04 team, one dating to Wolf and four to Sherman, rank among the seven best players today.

Together with the six players added by Thompson, the Packers have 11 whom they regard as almost interchangeable.

The success of the group can't all be attributed to player procurement. Robert Nunn, the defensive tackles coach since 2005, and Carl Hairston, who replaced Bob Sanders coaching the ends in '06, have done a remarkable job not only developing players but also fostering an unselfish approach that permeates the group.

Just look at how these players entered the league. Besides Harrell, Ryan Pickett (first round) was the only other player selected in the first four rounds. Two of the 11 were fifth-round picks, three were sixth-round choices and four weren't even drafted.

Now look at them.

Aaron Kampman has been to the Pro Bowl. An offensive line coach for an NFC North team last week said Cullen Jenkins, a free agent in 2003, was every bit as good as Minnesota's Kevin Williams, the ninth pick in the '03 draft. And Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila already has broken Reggie White's team sack record.

But the focus today will be on how these players got to Green Bay.

As you read this, remember how much work, insight and foresight went into each of these acquisitions. Remember, too, just how ruthless is the competition for players among the 32 teams.

In order of how they've played and practiced through six games, here's how the Packers' 11 defensive linemen arrived:

Aaron Kampman, DE: Fifth-round pick in 2002; that choice was part of Sherman's trade up for Javon Walker, one of the best deals in recent club annals … Wasn't even invited to the combine but after campus workout the Packers came to categorize him as the second best testing athlete among defensive linemen in the draft … Director of college scouting John Dorsey had been high on Kampman for months … Sherman signed off on the selection after being blown away by Kampman's personality during pre-draft visit to Green Bay … "We felt everything was ahead of him," vice president Mark Hatley said on draft day … Thirteen ends were taken ahead of Kampman but only Julius Peppers and Dwight Freeney have played better.

Ryan Pickett, DT: Unrestricted free agent signing (four years, $14 million, $6 million guaranteed) from St. Louis in March 2006 … Director of pro personnel Reggie McKenzie staked his reputation on Pickett, the 29th pick in 2001 who hadn't really played all that well until '05 … Believing in McKenzie, Thompson then reached his own conclusion that Pickett was best DT in free-agent class that included Gerard Warren, Maake Kemoeatu, Rocky Bernard and Larry Tripplett. Warren and Kemoeatu got more money than Pickett but haven't played nearly as well … "He played in a one-gap scheme and I was concerned because it wasn't our style," Nunn said. "But the more I kept watching I said, 'Hey, this guy fits.'"

Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila, DE: Fifth-round pick in 2000 … The Packers needed an "elephant" end to play in new coordinator Ed Donatell's system … Released on the last cut that August, Wolf signed him to practice squad the next day and then promoted him to roster Oct. 10 … Ten ends were taken ahead of "KGB" but none turned out any better.

Cullen Jenkins, DE: Undrafted free agent in 2003 ($2,000 signing bonus) … Played end at Central Michigan but weighed just 267 as a senior … Bulked up to 295 by draft day and worked out extremely well in March … Became a priority free-agent signing ramrodded by Dorsey … Released on cut to 65 that August and was out of football in '03 … Remembering his pass-rush explosiveness, McKenzie signed him to "street" free-agent deal in January '04 and shipped him to NFL Europe, where his career took off.

Johnny Jolly, DT: Sixth-round pick in 2006 … Played hurt as a senior on a bad ankle and then posted the slowest 40-yard dash (5.41 seconds) of 47 defensive linemen at the combine … Thompson refused to give up on Jolly, citing his competitive fire and quick feet … "We discussed him right after the first day of the draft," Nunn said. "He was one of the guys we were going after." … A high grade from area scout Alonzo Highsmith was one reason why the Packers' final grade made him an obvious late choice … Only four, maybe five of the 14 tackles taken ahead of Jolly have played better.

Corey Williams, DT: Sixth-round pick in 2004 … After trading up for DE Kenny Peterson and DT James Lee in '03 and DT Donnell Washington early in '04, Sherman was at it again on the second day in '04 … An ankle injury ruined Williams' development at Arkansas State but personnel analyst John Schneider was among those who really liked him on the basis of potential … Just four of the 17 tackles taken ahead of Williams have turned out better.

Colin Cole, DT: Signed as a free agent by Minnesota in 2003, also spent time with Detroit in '03 and '04 before joining Packers' practice squad in September '04 ... Activated late that November and has been a fixture since … Joint effort of pro personnel department led by McKenzie, Eliot Wolf and Tim Terry.

Justin Harrell, DT: First-round pick in 2007 … Thompson rated him as the No. 1 tackle in the draft … There wasn't another run stuffer with size in the draft that interested him … He viewed Harrell as a talent that eventually would put the group over the top … After rebuffing Cleveland's offer of a first-round pick in '08, he took Harrell over WR Robert Meachem.

Michael Montgomery, DE: Sixth-round pick in 2005 … Admired for his play during the '04 but ran poorly (5.05) at the combine … Thompson never came off him … Twelfth end taken; three of the four taken immediately before him are out of football.

Daniel Muir, DT: Undrafted free agent in 2007 ($15,000 signing bonus) … Four-year starter at end and tackle for Kent State … Swift 40 (4.87), tremendous strength and a zealous personality … Shaun Herock, assistant director of college scouting, pushed for him throughout the process.

Jason Hunter, DE: Undrafted free agent in 2006 ($15,000 signing bonus) … Undersized pass rusher and special-teams ace … Had 13 sacks and three defensive touchdowns in '05 for Division I-AA champion Appalachian State.

Each fall, scouts sit in film rooms and stand on practice fields across America using every experience that they have had in life to determine who among the many will make it and who among the many will not. In the end, decision-makers like Ron Wolf, Mike Sherman and Ted Thompson have the lonely job of making the calls that affect football organizations for years to come.

When they're right many more times than they're wrong, the result is a splendid unit just like the defensive line in Green Bay.

[Bretsky]

I agree this is a very very good DL and one that must be kept together (P.S.- Pull out the wallet and sign Corey Williams).

One thing I've noticed about three times was that writers state TT took Harrell over Robert Meachem.

Wonder if there is any credibility to this at all, or if this is just writers using their own logic. Maybe TT liked others more than Meachem. I've just never witnessed TT saying that.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think it's far from a must that Williams needs to be resigned. That would assume that Harrell can't become a solid player. If Harrell (who we've gotten little from to this point) were to become a player, he'd be able to step in for the UFA Williams and the DL wouldn't miss a beat. Or if a guy like Daniel Muir becomes a player.

[superfan]

Very good article. There are a number of interesting points that can be taken from this.


The hard-core fantasy football players, along with some old-fashioned fans, tend to evaluate the real general managers on moves that don't pan out while conveniently glossing over those that do.

The above sums up many of us on this board.


this defensive line, which might not be as good from top to bottom as New England, Jacksonville and San Diego but certainly rates in that next tier along with Tennessee, Minnesota, Detroit, Philadelphia, Carolina, Indianapolis, Baltimore, Chicago and Pittsburgh.

9 of our 16 games this season are against teams that McGinn has in his top 12 of defensive lines. And we've already played 4 of those games. That could also be a contributing factor for the struggling run game.


"I think Green Bay may have the best defensive linemen in all of football," said James Lofton, the Chargers' wide receivers coach who saw the Packers in Week 3. "That six-, seven-man rotation they're able to throw in there, those guys are really good. That's the strength of that defense. I know the corners are veteran players but those D-linemen are great."

James Lofton reference. One of the best Packers ever. :glug:


The last time anyone was saying the Packers had a great defensive line was 1996 when they won the Super Bowl. But by the time Mike Sherman took over in 2000, the unit had hit hard times.

During the next six seasons, Sherman made dozens of decisions regarding the defensive line. The two that will live in infamy were the first-round selection of Jamal Reynolds, made in conjunction with lame-duck GM Ron Wolf, and the unrestricted free-agent signing of Joe Johnson.

When Reynolds and Johnson turned out to be horrendous mistakes, it took time for the Packers to recover. That's why Thompson didn't appear to inherit much of a defensive line when he replaced Sherman as GM in January 2005. At the same time, the new defensive coordinator, Jim Bates, couldn't stop bubbling about the talent in the defensive line.

No one knew it then but Bates basically was right. Five defensive-line survivors from the '04 team, one dating to Wolf and four to Sherman, rank among the seven best players today.

This is a nice example of how the job of GM unavoidably encompasses both great moves and colossal failures. Reynolds and Johnson were two of the worst decisions in recent memory. But Sherman did a good job of recovering from those mistakes, even though it wasn't immediately obvious.


Just look at how these players entered the league. Besides Harrell, Ryan Pickett (first round) was the only other player selected in the first four rounds. Two of the 11 were fifth-round picks, three were sixth-round choices and four weren't even drafted.

Interesting that draft position has had little bearing on the quality of player on this defensive line. Shows how much of a crapshoot the draft can be, and calls into question the logic behind taking Harrell with the first round pick.


Aaron Kampman, DE: Fifth-round pick in 2002; that choice was part of Sherman's trade up for Javon Walker, one of the best deals in recent club annals … Wasn't even invited to the combine but after campus workout the Packers came to categorize him as the second best testing athlete among defensive linemen in the draft … Director of college scouting John Dorsey had been high on Kampman for months … Sherman signed off on the selection after being blown away by Kampman's personality during pre-draft visit to Green Bay … "We felt everything was ahead of him," vice president Mark Hatley said on draft day … Thirteen ends were taken ahead of Kampman but only Julius Peppers and Dwight Freeney have played better.

Wow - our scouts had Kampman as the second best DL in that draft? I assume Peppers was first. Surprising they liked Kampman that much.


Justin Harrell, DT: First-round pick in 2007 … Thompson rated him as the No. 1 tackle in the draft … There wasn't another run stuffer with size in the draft that interested him … He viewed Harrell as a talent that eventually would put the group over the top … After rebuffing Cleveland's offer of a first-round pick in '08, he took Harrell over WR Robert Meachem.

So according to this, the Cleveland deal was only for a first in 2008, and the way I read this, Meachem was the second choice. Interesting.

[superfan]

One thing I've noticed about three times was that writers state TT took Harrell over Robert Meachem.

Wonder if there is any credibility to this at all, or if this is just writers using their own logic. Maybe TT liked others more than Meachem. I've just never witnessed TT saying that.

I've been wondering the same thing...

[Guiness]

Aaron Kampman, DE: Fifth-round pick in 2002; that choice was part of Sherman's trade up for Javon Walker, one of the best deals in recent club annals … Wasn't even invited to the combine but after campus workout the Packers came to categorize him as the second best testing athlete among defensive linemen in the draft … Director of college scouting John Dorsey had been high on Kampman for months … Sherman signed off on the selection after being blown away by Kampman's personality during pre-draft visit to Green Bay … "We felt everything was ahead of him," vice president Mark Hatley said on draft day … Thirteen ends were taken ahead of Kampman but only Julius Peppers and Dwight Freeney have played better.

Wow - our scouts had Kampman as the second best DL in that draft? I assume Peppers was first. Surprising they liked Kampman that much.


I'm not sure how to read that comment - I have trouble believing that they had him graded the second best DL in the draft, then waited until the 5th to take him. Were they not maybe a little concerned that someone else had seen what they did and would take him?

Not only that, but Kampman WASN'T that good when he came into the league. He is the classic case of a guy who was good enough to make the team, get some reps, and keep improving until he became a force. I remember numerous articles on him saying he was a roleplayer: a high motor guy who would never be a difference maker. And there was no reason to believe they were wrong at the time.

I call BS on this statement.

[HarveyWallbangers]

To be fair, the article didn't say he was their second-ranked DE. If he were, they would have taken him higher. They said he ranked second in the tests (workouts, wunderlic, interviews). Maybe he didn't grade that well in college, so their overall rating on him was lower.

[Guiness]

You're right, and I noticed that as well - I'm not sure what 'second best testing athlete' means.

[esoxx]

D Line is the strength of their team and the reason why they're in every game.

[RashanGary]

Wow - our scouts had Kampman as the second best DL in that draft? I assume Peppers was first. Surprising they liked Kampman that much.


This is a little more evidence that Mike Sherman took guys he needed over guys the scouts liked. If they had Kampman as the 2nd best lineman (physically) and they loved his determination, then he should have gone long before round 5. We lucked out with Kampman, probably because none of Shermans pets were remaining and he had to just take the guy the scouts wanted all along. Makes you wonder how many times it didn't pan out.

Sherman coming out after the Carroll pick and saying "This is the highest rated CB available" instead of "This is the best player on our board" made me realize that he had no intention of grabbing the best players, only the ones who filled short term needs. I believe that Shermans god awfull aproach (except for in the late rounds where he seems to have just went with his scouts opinions) is what ruined this team. Thankfully, Harlan fired him and we're back on track.

Another thing I like about the Thompson regime is that they give credit to the scouts now. McGinn had to get this from somewhere in the organization, and it would never have gotten to McGinn if Thompson didn't want it too. Thompson came up the hard way to where he is. He seems to want to give all of his guys the chance to have their name known. Thompson leans on his scouts, and takes players that him (and his guys) think are the best. It's really paying off.

I hate to drag Sherman into everything, but man O man was he a bad GM. As a fan, I am soooooo thankfull that he is gone.

[RashanGary]

Imagine if we didn't take this non-need picks in the later rounds during Shermans brutal campeign? We'd be completely screwed right now.

Kampman, Williams and Wells are perfect examples of how taking a guy you don't need right now pays off more than taking lesser guys that you don't need (over the course of the draft picks impact).

The hope is that the best player is a guy that you need right now, but if it doesn't work out that way, I believe the ups outnumber the downs (over the course of the draft picks impact) if you just stick with the best players.

[LL2]

"At the same time, the new defensive coordinator, Jim Bates, couldn't stop bubbling about the talent in the defensive line."

Maybe this was the reason Bates didn't get the coaching job. TT interviewed Bates and went :shock: and said "ok, we have a few more candidates to interview and you'll hear from us"

[Patler]

I think it's far from a must that Williams needs to be resigned. That would assume that Harrell can't become a solid player. If Harrell (who we've gotten little from to this point) were to become a player, he'd be able to step in for the UFA Williams and the DL wouldn't miss a beat. Or if a guy like Daniel Muir becomes a player.

Harrell is more of a potential replacement for Cole or Pickett than he is for Williams. Harrell will not give the team what Williams does. I doubt he will provide the pass rush pressure that Williams does, and there has been no indication that he can play DE like Williams can.

[RashanGary]

Harrell is more of a potential replacement for Cole or Pickett than he is for Williams. Harrell will not give the team what Williams does. I doubt he will provide the pass rush pressure that Williams does, and there has been no indication that he can play DE like Williams can.

I agree. I could see something like this;

2008
Pickett/Harrell/Muir
Jolly/Williams/Muir

2009
Harrell/Pickett/Muir
Jolly/Williams/Muir

2010
Harrell/Muir/??
Jolly/Williams/??

Thompson just letting Williams go would defeat all purpose of being such an oppurtunistic talent grabber. 4 DT's can acctually rotate regularly, to bring optimum effectiveness to the position. Then the 5th becomes important in case of inevitable injury. Absolutely no need to let Willams go right now. He's playing about like he played last year, and that is pretty damn well. I'm hoping he takes a Jenkins type deal before he gets to UFA, becasue if he makes UFA he'll probably get double. A lot of impact can be had on the field by the 4th DT (in keeping other guys fresh and in being strong/fresh himself). It would be a different story if it was a 2nd punter or a 4th QB. Williams will play and he'll make a difference. Sign him up. I feel the same way about another WR in this years draft. Driver isn't going to be around forever, and we could always run sub packages to get a big time playmaker on the field if that situation presents itself. I'm not in love with Ruvell, Bodiford or Koren. There is NOTHING wrong with depth at most positions. Positions like DT, it's acctually needed.

[Patler]

It will be an interesting season-end and off season with Williams and the DL. The problem I see is they already have four sizable contracts on the DL, with Kampman, Jenkins, Harrell and Pickett. Teams always talk about not committing too many large contracts in one area of the team, so they may not feel it is appropriate to make a big offer to Williams. On the other hand, none of the contracts are huge deals, and Kampman, Jenkins and Pickett might all be considered bargains.

[RashanGary]

It will be an interesting season-end and off season with Williams and the DL. The problem I see is they already have four sizable contracts on the DL, with Kampman, Jenkins, Harrell and Pickett. Teams always talk about not committing too many large contracts in one area of the team, so they may not feel it is appropriate to make a big offer to Williams. On the other hand, none of the contracts are huge deals, and Kampman, Jenkins and Pickett might all be considered bargains.

I think this is KGB's last year, but you never know. He keeps playing well. He might have one more left in him.

Kamp, Jenkins and Pickett combined make what Freeney makes per year.

They have more than enough cap space for it. I have a feel for what I think Ted Thompson does with his decisions. I think he'll think about what kind of impact Williams signing would have on the team. He would then weigh it against what it costs to sign him. I think the reward outweighs the risk if the price is where we all think it is and he'll sign Williams some time over the next couple weeks.

The defense wouldn't be very good without the good DL. You hate to let Williams go, have one injury and then a strength goes from something that impacts the game in the 4th quarter to an average DL that wears out in the 4th. For 4 mil per year in this cap age, it's a drop in the hat to sign Williams and the impact is big. It seems like a no brainer to me if you're willing to pay 3 DT's starter money. Jolly is getting peanuts and by the time Jolly gets paid, Pickett will be leaving.

[Bretsky]

I think it's far from a must that Williams needs to be resigned. That would assume that Harrell can't become a solid player. If Harrell (who we've gotten little from to this point) were to become a player, he'd be able to step in for the UFA Williams and the DL wouldn't miss a beat. Or if a guy like Daniel Muir becomes a player.


Hence the reason I thought we drafted him in the first place. No credibility to that view at all, but that was my first impression.

It's not a bad thing to have a dominant DL; we have 12,000,000 of cap space sitting there right now and not a ton of quality to extend.

[Bretsky]

I think it's far from a must that Williams needs to be resigned. That would assume that Harrell can't become a solid player. If Harrell (who we've gotten little from to this point) were to become a player, he'd be able to step in for the UFA Williams and the DL wouldn't miss a beat. Or if a guy like Daniel Muir becomes a player.

Harrell is more of a potential replacement for Cole or Pickett than he is for Williams. Harrell will not give the team what Williams does. I doubt he will provide the pass rush pressure that Williams does, and there has been no indication that he can play DE like Williams can. :bclap:

[Bretsky]

Wow - our scouts had Kampman as the second best DL in that draft? I assume Peppers was first. Surprising they liked Kampman that much.


This is a little more evidence that Mike Sherman took guys he needed over guys the scouts liked. If they had Kampman as the 2nd best lineman (physically) and they loved his determination, then he should have gone long before round 5. We lucked out with Kampman, probably because none of Shermans pets were remaining and he had to just take the guy the scouts wanted all along. Makes you wonder how many times it didn't pan out.

Sherman coming out after the Carroll pick and saying "This is the highest rated CB available" instead of "This is the best player on our board" made me realize that he had no intention of grabbing the best players, only the ones who filled short term needs. I believe that Shermans god awfull aproach (except for in the late rounds where he seems to have just went with his scouts opinions) is what ruined this team. Thankfully, Harlan fired him and we're back on track.

Another thing I like about the Thompson regime is that they give credit to the scouts now. McGinn had to get this from somewhere in the organization, and it would never have gotten to McGinn if Thompson didn't want it too. Thompson came up the hard way to where he is. He seems to want to give all of his guys the chance to have their name known. Thompson leans on his scouts, and takes players that him (and his guys) think are the best. It's really paying off.

I hate to drag Sherman into everything, but man O man was he a bad GM. As a fan, I am soooooo thankfull that he is gone.


Once again Sherman did NOT say he was the second best DL in the draft. IMO you are reaching here using Kampman as an example. He was thought to be too small by some for the NFL and was drafted about where he was projected to be drafted.

Give Sherman loads of credit for bringing in guys like Kampman, Jenkins, Barnett, Wells..etc

[Patler]

It will be an interesting season-end and off season with Williams and the DL. The problem I see is they already have four sizable contracts on the DL, with Kampman, Jenkins, Harrell and Pickett. Teams always talk about not committing too many large contracts in one area of the team, so they may not feel it is appropriate to make a big offer to Williams. On the other hand, none of the contracts are huge deals, and Kampman, Jenkins and Pickett might all be considered bargains.

I think this is KGB's last year, but you never know. He keeps playing well. He might have one more left in him.

Kamp, Jenkins and Pickett combined make what Freeney makes per year.

They have more than enough cap space for it. I have a feel for what I think Ted Thompson does with his decisions. I think he'll think about what kind of impact Williams signing would have on the team. He would then weigh it against what it costs to sign him. I think the reward outweighs the risk if the price is where we all think it is and he'll sign Williams some time over the next couple weeks.

The defense wouldn't be very good without the good DL. You hate to let Williams go, have one injury and then a strength goes from something that impacts the game in the 4th quarter to an average DL that wears out in the 4th. For 4 mil per year in this cap age, it's a drop in the hat to sign Williams and the impact is big. It seems like a no brainer to me if you're willing to pay 3 DT's starter money. Jolly is getting peanuts and by the time Jolly gets paid, Pickett will be leaving.

Gee, I forgot all about KGB! That makes it even more unlikely that they will make a big offer to Williams without letting one of those contracts go. Obviously, the most likely would be KGB.

I wonder if we might see KGB released and an attempt at re-signing him to a lower contract. His salary for next year is to be over $6 million, and $7.3 million in 2009. He seems to have adapted well to his new role, but that is a lot of money to pay him for it.

[Bretsky]

It will be an interesting season-end and off season with Williams and the DL. The problem I see is they already have four sizable contracts on the DL, with Kampman, Jenkins, Harrell and Pickett. Teams always talk about not committing too many large contracts in one area of the team, so they may not feel it is appropriate to make a big offer to Williams. On the other hand, none of the contracts are huge deals, and Kampman, Jenkins and Pickett might all be considered bargains.

I think this is KGB's last year, but you never know. He keeps playing well. He might have one more left in him.

Kamp, Jenkins and Pickett combined make what Freeney makes per year.

They have more than enough cap space for it. I have a feel for what I think Ted Thompson does with his decisions. I think he'll think about what kind of impact Williams signing would have on the team. He would then weigh it against what it costs to sign him. I think the reward outweighs the risk if the price is where we all think it is and he'll sign Williams some time over the next couple weeks.

The defense wouldn't be very good without the good DL. You hate to let Williams go, have one injury and then a strength goes from something that impacts the game in the 4th quarter to an average DL that wears out in the 4th. For 4 mil per year in this cap age, it's a drop in the hat to sign Williams and the impact is big. It seems like a no brainer to me if you're willing to pay 3 DT's starter money. Jolly is getting peanuts and by the time Jolly gets paid, Pickett will be leaving.

Gee, I forgot all about KGB! That makes it even more unlikely that they will make a big offer to Williams without letting one of those contracts go. Obviously, the most likely would be KGB.

I wonder if we might see KGB released and an attempt at re-signing him to a lower contract. His salary for next year is to be over $6 million, and $7.3 million in 2009. He seems to have adapted well to his new role, but that is a lot of money to pay him for it.


The ideal scenario is to have KGB modify his contract; but players don't take lightly to pay cuts, and my gut tells me if TT does this he'll offer KGB a contract that will be lower than what he'd get in unrestricted FA. So then it's up to KGB.

I do want them to keep Williams though.

[Patler]

Give Sherman loads of credit for bringing in guys like Kampman, Jenkins, Barnett, Wells..etc

What I think is peculiar is that when Sherman actively tried to improve the DL, he failed. When he just "went with the flow" in his efforts, he succeeded.

Active attempts - sign Joe Johnson as an UFA, trade a draft pick for Rod Walker, trade up for Kenny Peterson, trade up for James Lee, trade up for Donnell Washington.

Go with the flow - Use his own pick for Kampman, let Jenkins go undrafted and sign him as an undrafted free agent, pick up Colin Cole after being released by others.

The only "active" attempt that succeeded was trading up for Williams.

It seems when he targeted guys, it didn't work out. When he just looked at what was available to him at the time, he had more success.

[Bretsky]

Give Sherman loads of credit for bringing in guys like Kampman, Jenkins, Barnett, Wells..etc

What I think is peculiar is that when Sherman actively tried to improve the DL, he failed. When he just "went with the flow" in his efforts, he succeeded.

Active attempts - sign Joe Johnson as an UFA, trade a draft pick for Rod Walker, trade up for Kenny Peterson, trade up for James Lee, trade up for Donnell Washington.

Go with the flow - Use his own pick for Kampman, let Jenkins go undrafted and sign him as an undrafted free agent, pick up Colin Cole after being released by others.

The only "active" attempt that succeeded was trading up for Williams.

Some are quite successful in the wheeling and dealing; no matter how you look at it there is a gamble there.

Overall Sherman was not successful at all.

The only three moves that clearly worked were

1. trading up to get Javon Walker (he picked up Aaron Kampmen with the extra pick

2. Trading a Second Round Draft Pick for Al Harris

3. Trading up for Corey Williams

[Patler]

Some are quite successful in the wheeling and dealing; no matter how you look at it there is a gamble there.

Overall Sherman was not successful at all.

The only three moves that clearly worked were

1. trading up to get Javon Walker (he picked up Aaron Kampmen with the extra pick

2. Trading a Second Round Draft Pick for Al Harris

3. Trading up for Corey Williams

Yup, thats pretty much it; and the failed wheeling and dealing moves included Hunter Hillenmeyer, Chris Johnson, Joey Thomas (which actually was a rare trade down), and BJ Sander in addition to the DL picks I mentioned earlier. I would argue that his trade of two fourth round picks for one season of Terry Glenn was a blunder overall, too.

[Partial]

Kampman - 5th round
KGB - 5th round
Jenkins - Undrafted
Jolly - 6th round
Montgomery - 7th round
Williams - 6th round
Pickett - 1st round
Harrell - 1st round

Interesting; most of our linemen were late picks.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think it's far from a must that Williams needs to be resigned. That would assume that Harrell can't become a solid player. If Harrell (who we've gotten little from to this point) were to become a player, he'd be able to step in for the UFA Williams and the DL wouldn't miss a beat. Or if a guy like Daniel Muir becomes a player.


Hence the reason I thought we drafted him in the first place. No credibility to that view at all, but that was my first impression.

It's not a bad thing to have a dominant DL; we have 12,000,000 of cap space sitting there right now and not a ton of quality to extend.

We have a bunch of guys that will be FAs in 2 years (and then a shitload in 3 years). It's not a bad thing not to use up every cent of your cap.

[RashanGary]

What I think is peculiar is that when Sherman actively tried to improve the DL, he failed. When he just "went with the flow" in his efforts, he succeeded.


I think any GM who is oppertunistic and takes advantage of things when the come available instead of when he NEEDS it will succeed (assuming he has good talent evaluators).

When you get desperate, you give up more than you should to get what you want and those decisions add up. The NFL is so highly competetive that it's not one move that puts a team over the top. It's many, many good moves compiled over time. One costly move takes away the ability to make a good move down the road. Yesterdays dumb decision (Joe Johnson for example) is todays handcuffs. Every time a desperate move is made, it stands a strong chance of having a negative effect on the team (because a desperate shopper is a stupid shopper IMO). Eventually I believe it becomes harder and harder to climb to the top because a few teams are making great decsiion after great decision, building something special OVER TIME where the bad GM's are trying to do it all in one off season driven by job security, desperation or bad ownership.

It's one thing if you just want to be good. I think it's quite another if you want to be great. My belief is greatness is something that has to be stacked methodically, not forced.

[RashanGary]

We have a bunch of guys that will be FAs in 2 years (and then a shitload in 3 years). It's not a bad thing not to use up every cent of your cap.

Right, are we going to beat the Patriots or Colts this year even with Moss (the only possible offseason move even in hindsight that really would have helped)? The anwer is a resounding NO if you have any football sense.

We're getting to the point where good decision is stacking on good decision. Do we want to hand cuff our option to continue to make the good decisions that put us over the top by getting desperate? I say NO WAY. Keep doing it the right way and greatness will come. We're just getting started in what could be a very big thing here in GB. It will never be great with one or two more players. It's going to take staying together and continuing to build more good peices. Blowing the wad now would insure that we have to start over before it comes together. No thanks.