John Murtha (Doing his best or hating his country)

[RashanGary]

John Murha is the new liberal whipping boy for the talk radio right wing. I believe John Murtha was speaking to the tragedies that happen during war time, and the importance of getting out of Iraq when he talked about our troops (inaccurate in this case) killing of innocent life. If anyone wants to debate his patriotism or hate for our troops, I'm interested in defending what he said, based on what I believe his intentions were.

There are better ways to say things, to prevent from turning off a voting base, but I believe his heart was in the right place and had it not been for 6 hours of talk radio every day, it would not have been (nor should it have been) a big issue.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Murtha's history is very pro-military. But he was an early and noisy opponent of the Iraq War.

Murtha has fallen out of favor with the anti-war movement, he became very conciliatory with the republicans this fall, offering a weak resolution.

Murtha is not a favorite of mine. He seems kind of dumb and shrill. But I guess I admire him for taking an unpopular stand. He comes from the conservative camp of democrats, his district is conservative blue collar. Most of the people who voted for him supported the IRaq invasion at the time he took a loud stand against it.

The right-wing attacks Murtha because he has some credibility on military issues. He had a marine career, and is on Armed Services committee, etc. So they want to discredit him. Also, maybe they see him as a bit clownish, as I do.

[Harlan Huckleby]

when he talked about our troops (inaccurate in this case) killing of innocent life. If anyone wants to debate his patriotism or hate for our troops, I'm interested in defending what he said

I didn't hear about this. What did he say now?

Murtha is very patriotic. And a big supporter of the military. I am not surprised he said somehting stupid, he often does that.

[RashanGary]

There was about 3 days of talk radio where Rush and Hannidy talked about Murtha for 3/4's of their respective shows. It's probably 2 or 3 weeks old.

Anyway, Murtha was accused of hating our troops and being an America hating lib. Some of our troops were being investigated for their tactics while raiding homes in Iraq. They were accused of killing innocent life. I don't know what Murtha knew about the issue, but he came out and said our troops committed wrongs while under the pressures of war. I have some ideas of what he was trying to say, but the radio hosts drummed up a big liberal witch hunt in which Murtha and his "merry band of antichrists" hate the troops, want them to die and hate our country. It would be hard for me to cover their angle as in depth because it was hammered for 4 hrs per day, probably 3 or 4 days that week.

[RashanGary]

I know it's hard to believe, but I really do consider myself a conservative. I just think Rush and Hannidy give conservatives a bad name (if you take them too seriously). I guess I am what they would call an "elite centrist" although it's not so much center as it is not being a dumb, stubborn donkey.

[mraynrand]

unindicted co-conspirator. Murtha's a bad politician, and his critique of the Iraq war was entirely political. The same could be said for war supporters on the right. Probably the most legitimate critique of the war effort cam from McCain, and some of the generals. Critique of the war, when it's linked to politics, makes you feel scummy, regardless of the side you're on. I think it's worse from the Democrats, simply because they had their political fortunes linked to failure in Iraq - and in unguarded moments they said as much. Republicans made it a political issue, but since they are linked with success in Iraq, it just comes across as more admirable. Because of the political environment, it's hard to figure out whether some guys are true advocates of their position, or just being political. Like Jim Webb - he seems sincere, yet I can't figure out if he's totally on the level.


Edit: I changed 'non-indicted' to 'unindicted'

[RashanGary]

I agree mraynrand. I know politicians have the main objective of keeping votes, so things are always about twisting impressions to make them look good.

There are factions of the democrat party that are invested in losing the war. It's not every member though. Pelosi and Reed are because they are responsible for advancing the cause of the party. The democratic presidential candidates are because they rely on Bush looking bad to win.

I don't think Murtha or most of the other senators and congressmen are though. They have a different agenda (winning the election in their districts and states)

I know things are politicized, but sometimes the level of politicizing is blown way out of porportion. Murtha, for example, doesn't have much to gain by making Bush look bad. He's not in a position (like Pelosi, Reed or the pres candidates) to really have anything to gain. I don't believe every politician is a party robot, I guess. Maybe I'm naive and wrong, but I don't think Murtha is trying to hurt Bush. I think he's just a good man, trying to do what he believes is right.

[mraynrand]

I don't think a number of dems are trying to hurt the country with their war opposition. But I do think Murtha's a bad guy - but that predates the Iraq war by a generation. ABSCAM!

[RashanGary]

Just looked it up on Wiki

Forget what I said about him being a good guy.


Sheesh, I'm naive.

[Merlin]

The whole John Murtha deal has been going on for longer then a few weeks. If I had to guess, I would say his comment was over a year a go or close to it. When some of our troops went on trial for killing civilians, Murtha made his comments and his comments basically defied our judicial system of innocent until proven guilty. He tried and convicted them threw the national news media. Now that the troops have been found innocent, Murtha refuses to apologize for his rhetoric. He should since his party is the one always asking for apologizes from anyone who opposes them.

I can promise you that if it was a conservative who said it, they would be attacked not only by the liberals but it would also be in every newspaper, TV and radio news source in the country. They already tried to twist what Rush and O'Reily have said here recently to take the spotlight off of Murtha. Murtha's comment weren't taken out of context by anyway shape or form, unlike what the libs did to Rush and O'Reily.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Murtha's a bad politician, and his critique of the Iraq war was entirely political.

Nonsense. Murtha came out vehemently against the war far before it was of any political advantage. He comes from a relatively conservative district.

If Murtha was the liberal that the right wing trys to portray him as, his would have been ignored. Murtha has been a hawkish military stalwart throughout his career.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Now that the troops have been found innocent, Murtha refuses to apologize for his rhetoric ... I can promise you that if it was a conservative who said it, they would be attacked not only by the liberals

I agree that Murtha is a bit of a goofball. But it is not a liberal-conservative deal. Murtha has been drifting back to his conservative roots this fall. The left has disowned him.

[mraynrand]

Murtha's a bad politician, and his critique of the Iraq war was entirely political.

Nonsense. Murtha came out vehemently against the war far before it was of any political advantage. He comes from a relatively conservative district.

If Murtha was the liberal that the right wing trys to portray him as, his would have been ignored. Murtha has been a hawkish military stalwart throughout his career.

Murtha's a fucking liar. You can believe him if you want, but I don't trust a damn thing outta that guy's pie hole. Murtha wasn't ignored because the press continually supports the anti war position. He would have been ignored if he had been pro war. The right wing isn't trying to portray him as a liberal, but as a fucking liar and scoundrel, which he is.

[RashanGary]

as a liar and scoundrel, which he is.

You're saying he intentionally lied?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Murtha wasn't ignored because the press continually supports the anti war position.

the press like Rush Limbaugh and Shawn Hannity? Those guys go after him because he has credibility.


The right wing isn't trying to portray him as a liberal, but as a fucking liar and scoundrel, which he is.

well, I don't know what you are talking about, you may have something specific in mind. But Murtha has been very straight forward and consistent for four years (at least prior to this fall, when he became conciliatory with Republicans.) He has been attacked by the right for his very clear, even simplistic, positions.

If I didn't know better, I'd be tempted to say you have no idea what you are talking about. But there must be another explanation.

[Freak Out]

I don't think a number of dems are trying to hurt the country with their war opposition. But I do think Murtha's a bad guy - but that predates the Iraq war by a generation. ABSCAM!

Ha ha..ABSCAM! What a shocker......corrupt politicians. Sorry..they were the dumb ones that get caught sometimes.

Harrell...many are naive about what goes on in Washington.

[mraynrand]

Murtha wasn't ignored because the press continually supports the anti war position.

the press like Rush Limbaugh and Shawn Hannity? Those guys go after him because he has credibility.


The right wing isn't trying to portray him as a liberal, but as a fucking liar and scoundrel, which he is.

well, I don't know what you are talking about, you may have something specific in mind. But Murtha has been very straight forward and consistent for four years (at least prior to this fall, when he became conciliatory with Republicans.) He has been attacked by the right for his very clear, even simplistic, positions.

If I didn't know better, I'd be tempted to say you have no idea what you are talking about. But there must be another explanation.

He's been attacked for the same reasons a lot of these guys get attacked - for presuming Marines guilty of atrocities until proven innocent. He, like Durbin assumed the worst, and he was blasted for it. It didn't matter whether he was right about the facts or wrong (which he turned out to be), the point is that he assumed the Marines were guilty of misconduct and then publicly denounced them. And of course, there was that little ABSCAM thing. Why defend this piece of garbage? There are plenty of respectable dems who don't support the war (e.g. Webb, Shuler) to whom you could attach your anti-war carriage.

[Harlan Huckleby]

ABSCAM was almost 30 years ago! Several people went to prison, but not Murtha.

Murtha made stupid remarks about the marines in spring of last year. Murtha is not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, no doubt about that.

I find this character assasination crap pointless. Maybe Murtha is a sleazeball, maybe he isn't. The whole purpose of the attacks are to discredit the positions he takes on issues without having to discuss the merits.

[RashanGary]

He's been attacked for the same reasons a lot of these guys get attacked - for presuming Marines guilty of atrocities until proven innocent. He, like Durbin assumed the worst, and he was blasted for it. It didn't matter whether he was right about the facts or wrong (which he turned out to be), the point is that he assumed the Marines were guilty of misconduct and then publicly denounced them. And of course, there was that little ABSCAM thing. Why defend this piece of garbage? There are plenty of respectable dems who don't support the war (e.g. Webb, Shuler) to whom you could attach your anti-war carriage.

I think his main attacks were on the tragedy's of war. Murtha was in Vietnam, he knows a little something about the horrors of war. He assumed that the troops went in and shot unarmed residents of a home they were breaking into (maybe because he knows how easily it can happen when you are trying to protect your life and you have a deadly weapon in your hand). He never called the troops evil or bad. He said the committed an atrosity in the face of severe pressure. Have you ever been in that situation? I'll bet a lot of troops did things they regretted because of the pressure to stay alive. Let's say you're getting fired at. Now you breaking into a house that you think people are trying to kill you from. You kick down the door, and there is a some aggressive movement, out of fear (the pressure of war), you fire and kill an innocent person.

For Murtha to bring that up, is really no knock on the soldier. The soldier is trying to stay alive. They make mistakes while under extreme pressure. I thought that is what Murhta was trying to say. I thought that was why he added the pressure part. I thought the whole jab was at the administration for putting our troops in such a bad situation when we were not at risk. It got twisted way out of porportion by talk radio like every other attack on the administration. It's very similar to Barry Bonds using his kid as a human shield. The right uses troops as the human shield, making every attack on Bush seem like an attack on the troops if at all possible.

[RashanGary]

Horrible, ungodly damage occurs in war. Some of our pilots drop bombs on babys heads. Some break down doors and in the pressure of war they kill a few innocent kids.

The media and "left" as you say, play this up because they picture these poor innocent people dying the awfull deaths and they (as constituants of the United States) would rather use any ulternate means of getting a job done before attacking another country.



The troops are just the right's human shield. How can you attack Bush's war decisions; how would that make the soldiers feel? ? ? If that's not disgusting spin, I don't know what is.

[mraynrand]

ABSCAM was almost 30 years ago! Several people went to prison, but not Murtha.

Murtha made stupid remarks about the marines in spring of last year. Murtha is not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, no doubt about that.

I find this character assasination crap pointless. Maybe Murtha is a sleazeball, maybe he isn't. The whole purpose of the attacks are to discredit the positions he takes on issues without having to discuss the merits.

No. The purpose of the attacks were to castigate him for assuming the worst about the Marines with spotty info prior to investigation. He was attacked specifically on the demerits of his positions - both the premature judgment of the Marines (presumed guilty) and his 'plan' for a fall back position in Okinawa were stunningly naive. Durbin, Kerry, and Reid were also attacked for the words they used to wrongly describe the troops, not necessarily their 'position' regarding Iraq. Murtha is a sleazeball - there's no 30 year statute of limitations on that.

The overall main problem with many Dems and their position(s) on the war is that they've been wholly irresponsible, with the exception of a few that I know of - like the aforementioned Webb and Shuler. You could add Joe Biden too. As much as I dislike Biden, at least he's taken a position on the situation in Iraq based on credible knowledge and stuck with it. His position actually has a long term plan for Iraq and a strategy to withdraw. Others, like Murtha, presented vague, naive withdrawal plans and never had their feet held to the fire about planning for likely eventualities following U.S. withdrawal.

JH, when war supporters use the 'don't question the war because it demoralizes the troops' argument, they should be blasted for it. But that's very different than blasting politicians who accuse the troops of misdeeds based on preliminary and sketchy info or accusing the troops of deliberate killing of civilians. The far left blogosphere is chock full of lies about the role of U.S. troops in civilian casualties in Iraq. It's shameful. And when guys like Durbin, Kerry and Reid take their orders from these far left nuts - or just echo them, that's deplorable and they should be called out on it.

[RashanGary]

Politics is pretty disgusting. I hope you hold the right to the same fire when they use their deplorable god tactics to win over christians.

YOu think Rudy Giuliani is a devote christian? I'll bet he plays that role over the next few months. You think that is admirable? He's already acting like he's against abortion to appease christian conservatives.

As far as Murtha's comments. Again, he wasn't calling the troops evil. He was saying the backlash of war is evil and the actions done under pressure are awfull. That's not a knock on the person doing it, it's a knock on the people who put the person under the pressure that causes it. Get out of Iraq and troops won't be forced to kill people (some undeservingly out of pressure)

[Kiwon]

Murtha's a fucking liar. You can believe him if you want, but I don't trust a damn thing outta that guy's pie hole. Murtha wasn't ignored because the press continually supports the anti war position. He would have been ignored if he had been pro war. The right wing isn't trying to portray him as a liberal, but as a fucking liar and scoundrel, which he is.

July 2007 - "It's rhetoric, it's an illusion." (Response to reports of progress in Iraq)

November 21, 2007 - "We can't win militarily."

Four-day trip to Kuwait, Iraq, Turkey, Belgium over Thanksgiving

November 30, 2007 - "I think 'The Surge' is working..."

Shhh...... Don't tell anyone that Joe Lieberman and John Murtha now agree.

[Freak Out]

Four-day trip to Kuwait, Iraq, Turkey, Belgium over Thanksgiving

November 30, 2007 - "I think 'The Surge' is working..."

Shhh...... Don't tell anyone that Joe Lieberman and John Murtha now agree.

A four day trip? I'm surprised he could tell what time it was let alone whether or not the surge was working. :lol: