Play Of The Day - Grant Touchdown

[Joemailman]

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/packer/img/news/nov07/play11.jpg

My most vivid impression of the play was the great downfield block by Driver. However, that was a great play by Spitz to block a blitzing Greenway and still cut off the pursuit of a great player like Kevin Williams.

[BallHawk]

Korey Hall's block was great, too. Grant doesn't make it if Hall doesn't stop EJ.

[Merlin]

I didn't notice a lot of cut blocking yesterday. Does anyone else think we are running some kind of morphed ZBS? There were some pulling and double teaming going on to. It almost appeared like we were trying to actually block instead of trying to find someone to block.

[Lurker64]

Korey Hall's block was great, too. Grant doesn't make it if Hall doesn't stop EJ.

It sure was. I like Korey Hall. He might not be a fullback, but he is a ballplayer. Hopefully he will grow into being a fullback.

[KYPack]

I didn't notice a lot of cut blocking yesterday. Does anyone else think we are running some kind of morphed ZBS? There were some pulling and double teaming going on to. It almost appeared like we were trying to actually block instead of trying to find someone to block.

Yeah, we are.

The strict Gibbs/Jags ZBS system just didn't fit our personnel. Cliffy and Tausch don't really make the quick lead steps you need from the tackles to make the Gibbs ZBS fly. Our guards were basically kids that hadn't played together and didn't have the cohesiveness to make the cut blockin' Gibbs ZBS work, either.

So Philbin, Campen and the boys have installed a combo system that takes advantage of our lads skills and allows 'em to get people blocked, but not requiring the lock step teamwork the ZBS requires.

They run the old ZBS maybe 5% of the time, if that. They run a shuffle step Zone system where they face the other teams lineman and move in concert about 30 - 40% of the time. They run a power gap system the rest of the time.

The play diagramed above is a power gap running play with a couple ZBS nuances to it. Favre's roll left after the toss is a ZBS move. fer instance.

I really like how the staff has made our system better fit our players.

For one thing, the Gibbs system sets off a bitch fest every time some opposing player gets cut. Screw 'em, knock him on his ass the old fashion way so he can't cry about it.

I also like how our young guys are progressing. This time last year, I thought Moll was a stumblebum, and Spitz was retarded. They are improving and will be solid lineman on of these days.

[Carolina_Packer]

I didn't notice a lot of cut blocking yesterday. Does anyone else think we are running some kind of morphed ZBS? There were some pulling and double teaming going on to. It almost appeared like we were trying to actually block instead of trying to find someone to block.

Yeah, we are.

The strict Gibbs/Jags ZBS system just didn't fit our personnel. Cliffy and Tausch don't really make the quick lead steps you need from the tackles to make the Gibbs ZBS fly. Our guards were basically kids that hadn't played together and didn't have the cohesiveness to make the cut blockin' Gibbs ZBS work, either.

So Philbin, Campen and the boys have installed a combo system that takes advantage of our lads skills and allows 'em to get people blocked, but not requiring the lock step teamwork the ZBS requires.

They run the old ZBS maybe 5% of the time, if that. They run a shuffle step Zone system where they face the other teams lineman and move in concert about 30 - 40% of the time. They run a power gap system the rest of the time.

The play diagramed above is a power gap running play with a couple ZBS nuances to it. Favre's roll left after the toss is a ZBS move. fer instance.

I really like how the staff has made our system better fit our players.

For one thing, the Gibbs system sets off a bitch fest every time some opposing player gets cut. Screw 'em, knock him on his ass the old fashion way so he can't cry about it.

I also like how our young guys are progressing. This time last year, I thought Moll was a stumblebum, and Spitz was retarded. They are improving and will be solid lineman on of these days.

Nice analysis, KY. You should blog this stuff.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I didn't notice a lot of cut blocking yesterday. Does anyone else think we are running some kind of morphed ZBS? There were some pulling and double teaming going on to. It almost appeared like we were trying to actually block instead of trying to find someone to block.

Yeah, we are.

Not according to the coaches. Maybe this game. I didn't see it, but according to McCarthy, they haven't changed the scheme much. Maybe they did for this game, but when people have surmised this in the past, they've been incorrect (if the coaches aren't lying--which I have no reason to think they are). It's not like every ZBS play uses a cut block.

[Guiness]

Korey Hall's block was great, too. Grant doesn't make it if Hall doesn't stop EJ.

It sure was. I like Korey Hall. He might not be a fullback, but he is a ballplayer. Hopefully he will grow into being a fullback.

You absolutely have to respect what this kid has done. Didn't play FB in college, and is a starter, as a rookie, at that position in the NFL??? Wow.

You rarely hear his name. Like a CB, that's a good thing.

[KYPack]

I didn't notice a lot of cut blocking yesterday. Does anyone else think we are running some kind of morphed ZBS? There were some pulling and double teaming going on to. It almost appeared like we were trying to actually block instead of trying to find someone to block.

Yeah, we are.

Not according to the coaches. Maybe this game. I didn't see it, but according to McCarthy, they haven't changed the scheme much. Maybe they did for this game, but when people have surmised this in the past, they've been incorrect (if the coaches aren't lying--which I have no reason to think they are). It's not like every ZBS play uses a cut block.

Harve, they've changed the scheme a lot. For the reasons I stated. MM couldn't wait for our guys to pick up on the Gibbs system, so he junked (or rather modified) it.

Want proof?

Run tape on the Denver games. The ponies run the Gibbs/ZBS 85% of their running plays. They are like the last rebels in the league. Atl has largely canned it, we have, and nobody else runs the Gibbs system but Denver.

Now everybody in the league runs some form of zone blocking on the run extensively. NE, Indy, the Chiefs, everybody runs sophiticated zone blocking with rules, like the Gibbs system. But Denver is th4e last pure Gibbs/ZBS system.

I don't care what the coaches SAY, watch what the team runs.

[Deputy Nutz]

Fried Chicken, I think your last post sums it up the best. Nearly all pro teams and most college teams run a version of the ZBS. It is hard to stay with the original idea for a long time because teams around the league will eventually catch on.

Tauscher should be perfect for the scheme, he ran the zone in college, but going back to your point it wasn't the original Gibbs scheme, there were more down blocks and pulling linemen in the Wisconsin system with more help from the tight ends.

The bottom line is to run the Gibbs scheme you need oversized fullbacks that don't have to bend to make you blocks, guys that are good in space and are not extremely long or heavy. If a guy is 6-4 he is almost to long for the Gibbs scheme, and forget'em if they weigh over 300 pounds, they simply won't be fast enough to get to the second level, linebackers and safeties are just too fast in the NFL for a guy like Chad Clifton to chip and extend to the linebacker, won't ever get there, same with Colledge and Tausch, Wells is the only one that does it with any success.

The one thing I liked about Sherman was his approach to the running game, he wanted big nasties up front that could pull and maul people at the point of attack. Now combine the two, and you have a decent scheme that keeps teams off balance.


In a couple of interviews after the game McCarthy and Joe Philbin admitted that they game planned specifically for the interior of the Vikings line and reopened the playbook and went to an outside/off tackle running game with a power scheme, although on the 30 running play I believe they only worked out of the "I" formation like 10 times or so and there power Diamond stuff with the two fullbacks split like 7 or 8 times. So half of their runs could be considered power with more than one back in the backfield.

[deake]

I agree, the Denver game clearly showed the differences in what we are running and the what Denver was doing. McCarthy often says his job and the coaches job is to put the players in a position to succeed, to use their skills to the best advantage. Don't you wonder why its taken so long to make it work?

What a great topic and what a great bunch of replies. This is why I enjoy this Forum.

[MJZiggy]

I agree, the Denver game clearly showed the differences in what we are running and the what Denver was doing. McCarthy often says his job and the coaches job is to put the players in a position to succeed, to use their skills to the best advantage. Don't you wonder why its taken so long to make it work?

What a great topic and what a great bunch of replies. This is why I enjoy this Forum.

See? And I just thought you were here for the annual party... :P

[swede]

Good thread, Rats. I like finding out why things happen.

Too bad television is so bad at producing football. With that overhead camera and the right analysts they should be able to highlight and explain key plays like this 8-10 times a game.

Sometimes they're so busy getting close-ups of the quarterbacks walking to the line of scrimmage they fail to take a wide enough shot to see where the rb's and wr's are in the formation. Pet peeve.

[KYPack]

Fried Chicken, I think your last post sums it up the best. Nearly all pro teams and most college teams run a version of the ZBS. It is hard to stay with the original idea for a long time because teams around the league will eventually catch on.

Tauscher should be perfect for the scheme, he ran the zone in college, but going back to your point it wasn't the original Gibbs scheme, there were more down blocks and pulling linemen in the Wisconsin system with more help from the tight ends.

The bottom line is to run the Gibbs scheme you need oversized fullbacks that don't have to bend to make you blocks, guys that are good in space and are not extremely long or heavy. If a guy is 6-4 he is almost to long for the Gibbs scheme, and forget'em if they weigh over 300 pounds, they simply won't be fast enough to get to the second level, linebackers and safeties are just too fast in the NFL for a guy like Chad Clifton to chip and extend to the linebacker, won't ever get there, same with Colledge and Tausch, Wells is the only one that does it with any success.

The one thing I liked about Sherman was his approach to the running game, he wanted big nasties up front that could pull and maul people at the point of attack. Now combine the two, and you have a decent scheme that keeps teams off balance.


In a couple of interviews after the game McCarthy and Joe Philbin admitted that they game planned specifically for the interior of the Vikings line and reopened the playbook and went to an outside/off tackle running game with a power scheme, although on the 30 running play I believe they only worked out of the "I" formation like 10 times or so and there power Diamond stuff with the two fullbacks split like 7 or 8 times. So half of their runs could be considered power with more than one back in the backfield.

Thanks for the response, Nutroll. I've been trying to get you & ND to get into this discussion, It's always good to get ex-lineman's perspective on these OLine schemes.

Few other reasons that we are going to the hybred system that MM and Philbin are installing:

When I spoke about the tackles I lumped 'em together. It's really Cliffy that is the problem. The 90 degree turn and that quick jab step the tackle needs to make to lead either ZBS run to the left is about the last thing Chad needs to be doing to his body. Here you got a guy who is one of the best pass pro LT's in the business, protecting our HOF QB whose leading us into the play-offs. Do you really want to subject him to serious injury to run block when a different technique would be just as efffective? That's like using a Maserati to haul gravel.

Jags leaving. MM and Jags were like the Hardy boys. Two former packer assistants coming back to their alma mater and running the show. Jags as OC and ZBS Zen master, MM coach and co-OC. Jags promised that if they committed to the Gibbs/ZBS, he's get the team an effective running game with his knowlege of the system. MM wants the running game to supercharge his version of the WCO, multiple set offense he's got in his head. When Jags split, the ZBS went with him.

Philbin stepping up. Our guys were having trouble with the full-blown ZBS, but they were developing as lineman. Philbin has worked with MM and cooked up some zone, power gap, & combo's of the two that are effective schemes. Not only are they effective, they lend themselves better to the type of O that MM wants to run.

We haven't really run the Gibbs/ZBS all year, including pre-season.

But I'd say we are doing just fine with what we are running at this point in the season.

[Scott Campbell]

Well I'm not an ex lineman. I just watched the game tonight. What I did see was decent holes to run through. And I hadn't seen much of that previously this season. But the other thing I noticed is that Grant hits the holes quicker, and seems more instinctive than the previous starters. He also regularly gets some yards after getting hit.

I think we may have something in Grant.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think we may have something in Grant.

Kind of late to the party, aren't ya?
:D

[mraynrand]

I think we may have something in Grant.

Kind of late to the party, aren't ya?
:D

Here's a fresh take: Grant kinda reminds me of Dorsey Levens.

[Scott Campbell]

I think we may have something in Grant.

Kind of late to the party, aren't ya?
:D




Uhhhh.....well......I've been kinda busy, and have fallen behind the required reading. Is there a thread you'd like to direct me to?

[superfan]

Outstanding thread.

Pretty obvious that Colledge played a much better game. I didn't key on him much when watching the game, but when I did it seemed like Fat Pat was lining up directly over center a high percentage of the time, leaving Colledge untouched at the snap. Which left him looking for people to block. Odd game plan by the Vikes - I would have gone right after Colledge.

I did notice that on Favre's first TD pass, the Vikings defense was obviously geared to stop a run up the gut, and Colledge and to a lesser extent Clifton got absolutely owned at the line of scrimmage. A run on that play would have gotten nowhere.

[deake]

So the question is, what happened in the second half? Did the queens suddenly realize that the Packers had a running game and make some adjustments? Would have been nice if we could have done a little better job in the second half.

[HarveyWallbangers]

So the question is, what happened in the second half? Did the queens suddenly realize that the Packers had a running game and make some adjustments? Would have been nice if we could have done a little better job in the second half.

I don't think it was the realization that we suddenly had a running game. It was more that they realized we had a 20 point lead and would like run the ball more, so they played the run more.