Collins coming all the way back?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Nick Collins is supposed to be out for 3 or more games. I expect Rouse will make fewer mistakes from game to game. Why upset the apple cart if the defense is steady and improved?

This is a hard question to answer, I don't think any fan has a good read on their coverage skills. But take a guess.

[OS PA]

Nick Collins' speed is the reason why he'll get his starting job back. He makes mistakes, but makes up for them with his world-class speed. He also can put a lickin' from time to time. I know it's his third year, but he'll grow, sooner or later, he'll grow... at least I hope so.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I didn't see the game, but this is what McGinn wrote about the safety play:


There's no need for Nick Collins to fret about losing his job based on Aaron Rouse's starting debut. For as big as Rouse is, he didn't look physical bouncing off two tackles. FB Tony Richardson absorbed a sideline lick from Rouse without apparently even changing expression. Sanders had to be pleased with Atari Bigby as the eighth man in the box against Peterson. Bigby kept his wits about him, maintained outside leverage and at least kept getting the great back down.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm engaging in a little wishful thinking. Odds are that Collins returns to start because of experience and speed, but Rouse might be a better football player.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm engaging in a little wishful thinking. Odds are that Collins returns to start because of experience and speed, but Rouse might be a better football player.

Based off what?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm unimpressed with Collins as a tackler.

I'm imagining rouse at safety and Collins at Nickle.

[HarveyWallbangers]

McCarthy said Rouse was solid but missed three tackles. If Nick Collins had done that, I'm betting a ton of people would have ripped him.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Lets see where Rouse is three weeks from now. I'm willing to risk monopoly money that Rouse comes around.

The nickle corner is a key player. Might be a hell of secondary if Rouse makes strides. Large dose of wishful thinking, I know.

[Joemailman]

I thought Rouse did okay for his first start, but we'll have to wait to see how he does against a team that can throw the ball before really judging him. I expect Collins will be the starter come December.

[Deputy Nutz]

I think Rouse needs to realize that 6-4 225 pounds still needs to wrap up on tackles in the NFL, when he starts doing that he will be alright, at least he was in the right spot most of the time.

[StPaulPackFan]

I'm unimpressed with Collins as a tackler.

I'm imagining rouse at safety and Collins at Nickle.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think Jarrett Bush has been playing some pretty good football lately. Other than the first Minnesota game I think he has shown improvement each week. I actually think Collins as the nickleback would be a downgrade...

[mraynrand]

Rouse was invisible. Minnesota barely threw threw the ball. They only had the rock for 20 minutes. They have a highly marginal QB. They were missing their top WR. They have nothing at TE, where Rouse might have been challenged. There's no reason at all to think ANYTHING about Rouse, except that he hasn't been tested AT ALL, at least in pass coverage. If he plays at Detroit and Dallas, we'll know a hell of a lot. People are dissatisfied with Collins because he hasn't made a lot of eye-popping plays. His biggest weakness is that he struggles in man coverage, but he's rarely asked to do that anymore. Also, he's not asked to play the SS position as the 8th man in the box - that's Bigby's role. So Collins is the designated center fielder on defense. The reality about Collins is that he's dropped a big number of potential INTs. What's significant there is that he had the ball in his hands. If Collins had caught half the potential INTs he's dropped, people would be clicking on his name for the pro bowl. He's an above average safety to be sure.

[mraynrand]

I'm unimpressed with Collins as a tackler.

I'm imagining rouse at safety and Collins at Nickle.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think Jarrett Bush has been playing some pretty good football lately. Other than the first Minnesota game I think he has shown improvement each week. I actually think Collins as the nickleback would be a downgrade...

Totally agree. Bush was totally raw coming in this year. Tremendous athlete that's really never played d-back until this year. Improving, ceiling unknown. Collins would be a down grade at Nickel, because he just isn't that good in man coverage.

[Merlin]

Bush has been playing a lot better as of late. He needs to "think" better thought because my opinion is that all of his mistakes are mis-reading the play. If he is close on a play he does a good job trying to make the play, and that is better then a lot of young players who normally are too busy yelling at themselves as the play goes by them.

As for Rouse, Collins has nothing to worry about. We played the Vikings and although there are those people out there that think we have this magical top 5 defense, the Vikings made us look a lot better then we are and Rouse looked a lot better then he is. If he made those mistakes in that game (and admittedly I didn't pay any attention to him), then he has a long ways to go because the Vikings offense just is what some would call "horrible".

[Harlan Huckleby]

If Collins had caught half the potential INTs he's dropped, people would be clicking on his name for the pro bowl. He's an above average safety to be sure.

Down boy! An above average safety is occasionally seen crashing recievers to break up passes. An AAS makes an impressive open field tackle against a runner now and then. And ya, an AAS gets an interception when the opportunity is there.

I'm no scout, and find it particularly hard to judge the secondary. I can't assign blame very easily where there is a screw up, but I sure as hell can take note of good plays. Collins is nothing special.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Collins would be a down grade at Nickel, because he just isn't that good in man coverage.

The book on Collins is that he is fast, and can play either safety or corner.

Remind me again exactly what his strengths are?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Collins would be a down grade at Nickel, because he just isn't that good in man coverage.

The book on Collins is that he is fast, and can play either safety or corner.

Remind me again exactly what his strengths are?

I imagine his coverage is way better than what people think. I don't see a lot of balls completed on him. I don't think he's good enough to be a corner, but 4.38 speed at safety is unusual. I know it's frustrating that he's dropped some interceptions (although he did make the play against the Bears that Poppinga intercepted), but at least he's mostly in position to make those plays. He's not a bad tackler either. Safeties take bad angles. It happens to all of them. I don't think he's a horrible tackler. I like that both safeties will come up and hit people. I think our safety play has been at least adequate. After the last two years (when they were the #1 liability on defense), I'll take it.

[Tarlam!]

the Vikings made us look a lot better then we are

Merlin, they had a coupla players missing notably their star CB and WR. I also give you they had a 3rd string QB.

But, that did not impact their run defense one iota. And we ran on them. We controlled the pill to the tune of 41 some minutes of possession.

You are not doing this achievement (the shut out) enough justice, IMHO. I have read enough of your posts to realize you have a very strong opinion. Just as I wouldn't use this last Packers performance to claim this team is the NFC SB contender, I feel you shouldn't dismiss the accomplishment we just witnessed in order to support your position.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I imagine his coverage is way better than what people think. I don't see a lot of balls completed on him. I don't think he's good enough to be a corner, but 4.38 speed at safety is unusual.

His speed and coverage are fine, but he can't play corner!?

I have no opinion on his coverage skills, I just don't know. Bill Clinton would be proud of this fine parsing.

[3irty1]

Collins will almost certainly not lose his starting job but its worth thinking about. He gets caught out of position quite a bit but he does have the speed to make up for his mistakes. You can't teach speed.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I imagine his coverage is way better than what people think. I don't see a lot of balls completed on him. I don't think he's good enough to be a corner, but 4.38 speed at safety is unusual.

His speed and coverage are fine, but he can't play corner!?

I have no opinion on his coverage skills, I just don't know. Bill Clinton would be proud of this fine parsing.

Being good in coverage as a safety is a far different thing than being good in coverage as a corner. Much different. I suspect you know this.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Collins will almost certainly not lose his starting job but its worth thinking about.

Its a pleasant wet dream.

I think it was Ayn speaking passionately about Jared Bush's raw potential and physical skills, moist eyes as he spoke of no ceiling for this kid.

Same speech could be made for Rouse. He's even more raw, and maybe even more impressive.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Being good in coverage as a safety is a far different thing than being good in coverage as a corner. Much different. I suspect you know this.

I'm not buying it. If a guy has stiff hips, he's not going to be that good in coverage as a safety either.

And I certainly am not suggesting that Rouse can cover! I have no idea.

Obviously corner is more demanding. But you are cutting it too fine. If he would be a failure at corner, his coverage skills are not good.

[mraynrand]

Collins will almost certainly not lose his starting job but its worth thinking about.

Its a pleasant wet dream.

I think it was Ayn speaking passionately about Jared Bush's raw potential and physical skills, moist eyes as he spoke of no ceiling for this kid.

Same speech could be made for Rouse. He's even more raw, and maybe even more impressive.

Again, based on WHAT? My assessment of Bush is based on an entire year of special teams play. His athleticism was on display on every punt coverage. By the end of the 2006 season, Bush was UNBLOCKABLE. Does Rouse have anything close to that to recommend him? I said 'ceiling UNKNOWN' for Bush, meaning that he hasn't played enough to know whether he will acquire the kind of skills/techniques that you need to be a starting cb in the NFL, but he appears to be improving.

My opinion is that Collins is better than people give him credit for - a bit above average for an NFL starter at safety. Look at the safeties playing around the league and ask which guys you'd choose over Collins. Even a guy like Roy Williams doesn't have the range in coverage that Collins has. He's a bigger hitter, but so what? The Packers don't need Collins to crush guys in their scheme.

[mraynrand]

An above average safety is occasionally seen crashing recievers to break up passes. An AAS makes an impressive open field tackle against a runner now and then. And ya, an AAS gets an interception when the opportunity is there.

Collins occasionally crashes into receivers and breaks up passes.
Collins makes an impressive open field tackle on a runner now and then (and less than a SS, because he is playing more of a FS postion with Bigby up at the line more often)
Finally, Collins gets an interception when the opportunity is there, just at a lower percentage than say, Darren Sharper, the leading or second leading INT guy among active defensive backs. So I agree with you, Collins is above average.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You're a one man organizing committee for the Nick Collins Fan Club.
Find 16 more devotees and you can call yourselves the NC-17

I don't have a big problem with NC, he's adequate. Just hoping that Rouse can upgrade the position.

To Nick, let me just say Get Well Soon! (But not too soon.)

[mraynrand]

You're a one man organizing committee for the Nick Collins Fan Club.


Not at all. I'm making the best honest assessment I can of the guy. I'd like to see someone better in that spot. I don't see just above average as anything all that great. But, you can't have pro bowlers at every position or even top 10 in the league guys at every spot. But on a defensive team that has better relative talent at both corners, at 2/3 LB positions, and across the D-line, Collins may be perfectly adequate to get the Packers where they want to be

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think Collins is the weakest player on the starting defense.

Atari Bigby has made some bad plays, but he balances that with big plays, and he's improving.

Poppinga is the other "just a guy" like Collins, but again, he brings more playmaking ability than Collins.

[mraynrand]

I think Collins is the weakest player on the starting defense.


You could be right, The defense is just that good. But that doesn't change Collins' skill level. I would never characterize Collins or Poppinga as 'just a guy.' That's what you say about a Manuel at safety or a Marshall or Hollingquest at LB- Someone you throw in there who really has nothing to offer at all, and is just space filling. 'Just a guy' really applies to backups who may not even be active on gameday.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I would never characterize Collins or Poppinga as 'just a guy.' .... 'Just a guy' really applies to backups who may not even be active on gameday.

I am certain you grew up in Lake Wobegon, where all the children are above average.

[mraynrand]

I would never characterize Collins or Poppinga as 'just a guy.' .... 'Just a guy' really applies to backups who may not even be active on gameday.

I am certain you grew up in Lake Wobegon, where all the children are above average.

Nope. But you're far less likely to have NFL below average guys on a top 5 (edit: top 6 - Packers are 2nd in point allowed and 10th in yards - average of the two is 6th) defense. And my definition of 'just a guy' -a s backups or marginal starters - is completely consistent with where the Packers are as a team and where Collins and Popping fit in on that team.

here's the Packer staring defense for 1999:


Vaughn Booker*
Santana Dotson*
Gilbert Brown*
Vonnie Holliday
George Koonce*
Bernardo Harris
Jude Waddy*
Mike McKenzie
Darren Sharper
LeRoy Butler
Tyrone Williams

The five guys with asterisks I would qualify as 'Just guys' and Harris was close. That was an average to below average NFL defense (actually, they were 12th by the same criteria as above - imagine that). There's no comparison with those 'just guys' and Collins or Poppinga.

BTW, the backups at D-line were Hunt, Smith, Lyon and McKenzie. What a pile of crap that was.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think Collins is the weakest player on the starting defense.

I think it's Brady Poppinga, and I'm not even that unhappy with him. We have a damn good defense. Not historically great, but perhaps good enough to win a Super Bowl with.

[RashanGary]

Collins has had a good year. He's done a great job not letting anyone get by him. I would be suprised if Rouse beat him out this year, but it wouldn't suprise me if he lost his job over the next couple years.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The five guys with asterisks I would qualify as 'Just guys' and Harris was close. That was an average to below average NFL defense (actually, they were 12th by the same criteria as above - imagine that). There's no comparison with those 'just guys' and Collins or Poppinga.

Leroy Butler was just a guy at this point in his career. Bernardo Harris was not too bad.

Nick Collins is no better than those past "just guys", you just don't know it because he's with better teammates.

It's unlikely that Rouse can turn into an upgrade in three or four games. But not impossible.

[Green Bud Packer]

The five guys with asterisks I would qualify as 'Just guys' and Harris was close. That was an average to below average NFL defense (actually, they were 12th by the same criteria as above - imagine that). There's no comparison with those 'just guys' and Collins or Poppinga.

Leroy Butler was just a guy at this point in his career.

Leroy Butler had superstar written all over him from day one.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Leroy Butler had superstar written all over him from day one.

And a fat ass his last two years in the league.

He is one of my all time favorites. But the last year in particular was a little hard to watch.

[KYPack]

Collins has had a good year. He's done a great job not letting anyone get by him. I would be suprised if Rouse beat him out this year, but it wouldn't suprise me if he lost his job over the next couple years.

Ah, Remember the Bears game?

Nick and Pop (our JAGS, I guess) both blew cover on the tight end at a critical juncture and allow a big 6 for the hated ones.

That said, I've always liked Nick. He's got a lot of skills and is usually in position to make a play. The boy just doesn't close a lot. I've always felt Nick's progress has been retarded by lack of a competant partner. Manual talked a big game, but couldn't execute. This lead to an overall lack of confidence in the D backfield.

I think Bigby will help Nick and they will become a good safety tandem. I think Nick will be OK if his knee gets sound.

Nick in the nickel as the nickel back?

No.

That's a the job for a slot corner. That's the spot teams put their 3rd best corner and groom him to start. That's where Al Harris played in Philly before our wily GM scooped him up for a 2nd rnd pick.

I like Rouse, too. He's just green as goose poop and will take a good while to learn the job.

[mraynrand]

Leroy Butler had superstar written all over him from day one.

And a fat ass his last two years in the league.

He is one of my all time favorites. But the last year in particular was a little hard to watch.

It was hard to watch him go off the field with a career-ending injury in the loss to Atlanta. The secondary sucked even worse after that. Far more painful than watching Butler was watching Akins, McBride and then Bahwoh Jue take over for Butler. Losing Butler that year ruined the secondary, which was pretty decent with McKenzie, Williams, Sharper, and Butler.

[mraynrand]

The five guys with asterisks I would qualify as 'Just guys' and Harris was close. That was an average to below average NFL defense (actually, they were 12th by the same criteria as above - imagine that). There's no comparison with those 'just guys' and Collins or Poppinga.

Leroy Butler was just a guy at this point in his career. Bernardo Harris was not too bad.

Nick Collins is no better than those past "just guys", you just don't know it because he's with better teammates.

It's unlikely that Rouse can turn into an upgrade in three or four games. But not impossible.

HH, you don't even know what you're writing about. IN 1999 Sharper had a huge year with over 100 tackles (the D-line sucked), Butler had about 70. Sharper had 3INTs to Butler's 2. They each had a sack and fumble recovered.

and in 2000, Butler was still getting the numbers, next to pro bowler Sharper

T S A sack INT T yrds Ave
Leroy Butler 93 65 28 2.0 2 25 12.5
Darren Sharper 92 72 20 1.0 9 109 12.1


Finally, anything is possible with Rouse, but you're basing it on absolutely NOTHING tangible.

[Harlan Huckleby]

and in 2000, Butler was still getting the numbers, next to pro bowler Sharper
T S A sack INT T yrds Ave
Leroy Butler 93 65 28 2.0 2 25 12.5
Darren Sharper 92 72 20 1.0 9 109 12.1


Did you watch the games? Butler was embarassing his last season, and slowly fading for a couple years prior. Are you saying this is not true?
1999 was a little early, I didn't know exactly the year he retired. Get Butler's stats for tackles and intercpetions and compare to his glory days. And more importantly, be honest. Nobody who watched the games could dispute that Butler faded fast and deep towards the end.


Finally, anything is possible with Rouse, but you're basing it on absolutely NOTHING tangible.

I'm basing it on his size and a few brief looks. That is not nothing. I said from the start I am mainly just engaged in hopeful thinking.

As far as Nick Collins, I have seen him play for a few years, and he does nothing particularly well. You can keep calling him "above average", that doesn't make it so. Except possibly in your mind, which is fine, it's all just opinion.

[RashanGary]

He's the last line of defense on the NFL's #2 scoring defense. He had to be doing something right.

[Harlan Huckleby]

He's the last line of defense on the NFL's #2 scoring defense. He had to be doing something right.

You talking about Rouse?

BTW, does anybody remember how the scout evaluated Collins in McGinn's annual Blue-Red-Green-Yellow roster survey this year?

[mraynrand]

I'm basing it on his size and a few brief looks. That is not nothing. I said from the start I am mainly just engaged in hopeful thinking.

Pretty weak stuff



As far as Nick Collins, I have seen him play for a few years, and he does nothing particularly well. You can keep calling him "above average", that doesn't make it so. Except possibly in your mind, which is fine, it's all just opinion.

Typical relativist HH. All opinions are the same, right? even though yours are based on 'hopeful thinking' and mine are based on statistics and evaluation of game play. For example, you argue with saying Collins is above average, yet his stats in 2005 and 2006 are 130 tackles and 4 INTs, compared to Brian Dawkins who got about 147 tackles and 7 INTs. Dawkins had more passes defensed, but he plays in a different scheme that Collins and is allowed to play more aggressively rather than play center field. Plus, Dawkins is considered one of the games' finest safeties. The Eagles' other safeties numbers' are identical to Collins.' You know Sharpers' numbers over the past two years. The safeties playing next to Sharper, on one of the NFLs' best defenses had 120 tackles and 6 INTs, including 4 last year by Dwight Smith, a super bowl winning pro bowler. Last year, in four games, Bob Sanders had 20 tackles and one INT (80 and 4 projected over a season) in 2005, he had 72 and 1. So Collins is essentially a notch below the level of pro bowl safeties on the leagues' finest defensive backfields.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm basing it on his size and a few brief looks. That is not nothing. I said from the start I am mainly just engaged in hopeful thinking.

Pretty weak stuff.

No kidding! I have said all along I don't know much about Rouse. He hasn't played. And when he does, he'll have growing pains.

As far as opinions: your opinion is no better than anybody else's. Stats do not tell a complete story, especially tackles. If you didn't recognize how chubby, slow and ineffective Butler was in his last year, I have to say you aren't so keen.

Putting Dawkins and Collins in the same sentence is ridiculous. Watch the games.

[mraynrand]

I'm basing it on his size and a few brief looks. That is not nothing. I said from the start I am mainly just engaged in hopeful thinking.

Pretty weak stuff.

No kidding! I have said all along I don't know much about Rouse. He hasn't played. And when he does, he'll have growing pains.

As far as opinions: your opinion is no better than anybody else's. Stats do not tell a complete story, especially tackles. If you didn't recognize how chubby, slow and ineffective Butler was in his last year, I have to say you aren't so keen.

But according to you, no one's opinion is any better than anyone else's. So my opinion is that Butler was the finest safety in the NFL in 2001. And, based on your own words, you have to say that my view is just as good as the guy who says that Chris Akins is as fine a safety as Brian Dawkins. It's hell being trapped by your own pathetically foolish words, isn't it?

[Harlan Huckleby]

But according to you, no one's opinion is any better than anyone else's.

No, I did not say this. I'm saying talent evaluation is highly subjective.

[mraynrand]

your opinion is no better than anybody else's.

[Harlan Huckleby]

your opinion is no better than anybody else's.

OK, I was being too kind. And you interpreted me literally. Let me restate it this way:

Your opinion is worse than most. You don't even notice obvious things, like that Leroy Butler was unable to run late in his career, or that Dawkins is a far better player than Collins.

[mraynrand]

Coloring the Packers
By BOB McGINN
bmcginn@journalsentinel.com
Posted: Sept. 15, 2007
Last week, a personnel director for another NFL team provided this color-coded rating of 60 players under contract to the Green Bay Packers. The executive evaluates players year-round and takes into consideration performance in exhibition games, especially by young players. The scout says a player's production and durability are key elements in his grading system, as well as character. Each player is assigned a color category.

BLUE: Makes big plays on a consistent basis. Will win games. Among the top two or three at his position. Perennial all-pro.

RED: A very good player capable of making big plays. Probably among the top 10 at his position. Has a chance to make the Pro Bowl.

PURPLE: A solid starter. He won't be going to the Pro Bowl, but a team can win with him. Can't win games but won't lose them, either.

GREEN: A backup. If he's young, a team would be content with him. If he's older, a team would be looking to replace him.

YELLOW: A young player who hasn't played much and might have a chance to develop. Anyone else, you don't want on the roster.

PACKERS BREAKDOWN


PURPLES (19): WR Donald Driver (+), WR Greg Jennings (-), T Chad Clifton, T Mark Tauscher, G Jason Spitz, G Daryn Colledge, C Scott Wells (-), QB Brett Favre, DT Corey Williams (+), DT Ryan Pickett, DE Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila (-), LB A.J. Hawk (+), LB Nick Barnett (+), CB Charles Woodson (+), CB Al Harris, S Nick Collins, P Jon Ryan (+), LS Rob Davis (+), K Mason Crosby.

----
But what difference does it make? His opinion is no better than anyone else's. according to HH. The opinion of a 3 year old kid from the Sudan carries no less or no more weight (no pun intended).

[Lurker64]

Can we just get along and hope that Rouse plays well enough to make it controversial whether Collins gets his job back, but Collins plays well enough that it's hard to keep him out of the game?

Collins is alternatively great and awful, above average and below average. The kid fills me with both hope and despair. Rouse is an unknown, and that worries me.

[mraynrand]

your opinion is no better than anybody else's.

OK, I was being too kind. And you interpreted me literally. Let me restate it this way:

Your opinion is worse than most. You don't even notice obvious things, like that Leroy Butler was unable to run late in his career, or that Dawkins is a far better player than Collins.

That's more like it. So you do have a point of view. Granted it's based on hope rather than stats and football sense, and you can't identify subtleties in argument, but we can work on that. Did I claim that Butler could run well late in his career? Did I say Dawkins wasn't far better than Collins? Of course not. Only you made those claims on my behalf. I claimed that Butler was not 'just a guy' at the end of his career (you claimed he was and I disputed that) Chris Akins and Bahwoh Jue were 'just guys.' I never said Dawkins wasn't far better than Collins. I made the point that his stats are not amazingly different that Collins' and he (Dawkins) played for a far better defense the past two years. Those things are relevant to the comparison of players, to decide whether Collins is 'above average' as I claim. His stats put him above the NFL average and closer to the best than to the average. That's what the stats say. Next, add in that he looked so so in his first two seasons and perhaps a little better this year, with fewer lapses each season - in my estimation from watching the games, and I think it's obvious that he's above average. I think your statements continually make you look like a poor thinking, poor arguing, shallow evaluator of talent. But that's OK, since your opinion is no better than anyone else's.

[mraynrand]

Collins is alternatively great and awful, above average and below average.

That's a great take, if your goal is to be wishy-washy.

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/livingtoday/060413/one.jpg

[Harlan Huckleby]

Did I claim that Butler could run well late in his career? Did I say Dawkins wasn't far better than Collins? Of course not.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You just got done arguing that Butler played at high level to the end; and you made a statistical argument that Dawkins is comparable to Collins.

Guess we can chalk this up to my inability to appreciate the subtlty of your argument. Your fine nuance.

You one slick guy!

[Brohm]

Not in any reference to the discussion at hand, but it's intersting to see just how far off base scouts can be in rating a team in the preseason.

Jennings and KGB: Purple (-)? Amongst others.

[mraynrand]

you made a statistical argument that Dawkins is comparable to Collins.

Let me walk you carefully through this. I used statistics to help compare Collins and Dawkins. I did not use statistics to argue that they were comparable. In fact, they are comparable by definition. I assume you meant to mischaracterize my position as saying that Collins was as good as Dawkins. I did no such thing. Read carefully through the thread and my argument and you will see that I argue that the stats say they are not as far apart as you might expect for the best safety (Dawkins) and 'just a guy.' Collins' stats are above the level of the NFL average at safety. That, along with evaluation of gameplay put him closer to above average than to being 'just a guy.' That's my argument.

[Harlan Huckleby]

intellectual heft

This could be where you took a wrong turn. An opinion on how good a football player plays is not an intellectual exercise.

[mraynrand]

intellectual heft

This could be where you took a wrong turn. An opinion on how good a football player looks is not an intellectual exercise.

Certainly not for you. For you it's medulla level hopeful thinking.

[KYPack]

What is wrong with you two motherfuckers?

[Zool]

Assume both of you chew your ice cubes?

[Run2win38]

Regarding our secondary - it's interesting that these two will be free agents next year - at least that's what I read on another forum

SS Bob Sanders, Indianapolis Colts

CB Asante Samuel , New England Patriots

They'll probably get tagged

Does that extra cap space the Packers have roll over to the following year?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Regarding our secondary - it's interesting that these two will be free agents next year - at least that's what I read on another forum

SS Bob Sanders, Indianapolis Colts

CB Asante Samuel , New England Patriots

They'll probably get tagged

Does that extra cap space the Packers have roll over to the following year?

I don't see us being able to draw a Nate Clements or Asante Samuel while Woodson and Harris are both on the team. We'll have to develop our future corners from within.

[KYPack]

Regarding our secondary - it's interesting that these two will be free agents next year - at least that's what I read on another forum

SS Bob Sanders, Indianapolis Colts

CB Asante Samuel , New England Patriots

They'll probably get tagged

Does that extra cap space the Packers have roll over to the following year?

I don't see us being able to draw a Nate Clements or Asante Samuel while Woodson and Harris are both on the team. We'll have to develop our future corners from within.

You and I argued about Samuel in the off-season. I'm on your team now. Man, he's fallen off a lot. He also got tagged in the off-season, doubt he'll get it again. We will need corner help. Al is playing on sheer guts. I'd wonder if he's got a year left.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Anybody want to change their vote? :lol:

Bill Michaels on Packer Radio Network is confident that Rouse is going to keep the job. Bill Michaels knows what he's talking about - he's on the radio!

[RashanGary]

Rouse looked good. I really havn't missed Collins, at all.

[Scott Campbell]

Funny how he was in the right spot so often today. He gets his hands on a lot of balls - even if he only caught one.

[pack4to84]

Rouse has better ball skills then Collins. Collins is a better tackler. Rouse will learn to tackle better in the future this would be his job to lose. Rouse is a big presence out there with his size + reach. If that WR didn't bat the ball down in the Endzone he would have had 2 picks today.

[jmbarnes101]

I like Nick Collins as a player but in only two weeks as a starter Aaron Rouse is making more plays than Nick Collins had made all year.

I think Rouse should continue starting.

Is Collins better than Bigby?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Rouse faced Brooks Bollinger and Vinny Testaverde. He missed 3 tackles last week. He dropped what should have been an interception today. If Collins had done the same thing, people would be ripping him. Safety in Green Bay is like QB in other cities. Fans always like the backup.

[RashanGary]

Is Collins better than Bigby?

NO WAY!!

Bigby is a rugged, nastly little fucker. I don't take him out for any of the guys we have now.

[RashanGary]

Rouse faced Brooks Bollinger and Vinny Testaverde. He missed 3 tackles last week. He dropped what should have been an interception today. If Collins had done the same thing, people would be ripping him. Safety in Green Bay is like QB in other cities. Fans always like the backup.

Collins had big expectations after his rookie year. He hasn't gotten much better, but he's been solid this year. He hasn't missed tackles. He hasn't gotten beat any more than Woodson, Harris or Bigby and all of those guys are pretty good. He's done a pretty good job, but he hasn't been what we hoped he would be so it seems like he is doing bad when really he's just a solid player.

I think you are right that Rouse misses more tackles and although Rouse is bigger, I think Collins hits harder.

[MadtownPacker]

This discussion shouldn't can't include Bigby in any way. He is better then Collins or Rouse when it comes to laying people out. He is THROWING himself into opponents without any care about his own health. It more then makes up for the stupid shit he does. He has to be a big concern to opponents knowing he will be trying go Ivan Drago and "break them".