Odd man out in secondary

[Harlan Huckleby]

There are 5 guys who play key roles in the secondary. Harris & Woodson obviously have two positions locked down. Just for the sake of discussion, if the goal is to get the 5 best players on the field, who would you sit?

By the time Collins comes back, we'll know more about Rouse.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'd rather have a corner covering WRs than a S, so Bush has to be in the game for dime situations. Then, it's a matter of which two safeties. I'd trust Collins and Bigby more than Rouse at this point.

[gbpackfan]

You can't just put a safety in at CB. There is a reason they are S and a reason CBs are CBs. So Bush stays at the 3rd CB spot. I actually like the way he is playing. That pass int. call was complete BS. I don't know how the NFL expects CBs to cover WRs anymore. I really don't.

Rouse had a nice game on Sunday but it is too early to call him the starter. Let's see what happens in the next couple of weeks. I knew, and posted on this very site, that these past two weeks would be perfect for Rouse to get his feet wet. Now will see how he holds up against two teams that are very good at chucking the rock. Then, will know if he has taken Collins' job.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'd rather have a corner covering WRs than a S, so Bush has to be in the game for dime situations.

Harvey, my hypothetical question was to not think this hard. Just vote out the weakest player. ( I know it is not totally realistic, they have to fit skills too.) But its one way to look at it.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'd bet Collins and Bigby are both safe at this point. Collins moreso than Bigby. To me, Bigby and Rouse are both ideally SS. Rouse is big and pretty fast for his size, but Rouse is a 4.55-4.6 guy--while Collins is a 4.4 guy. I'm just hoping Rouse and Bigby can get through the next game or two without too many coverage breakdowns.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think you might change your mind on Rouse. He may prove to be a good, ball-hawking free safety. He reminds me a little of Darren Sharper.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Harvey, my hypothetical question was to not think this hard. Just vote out the weakest player. ( I know it is not totally realistic, they have to fit skills too.) But its one way to look at it.

Then that's just silly. Why didn't you just run a poll asking which player is the worst of those four? Seems to me you are trying to run the poll to push this strange Bush or Collins should be benched for Rouse agenda. That way you can run with the "nobody will miss Collins" take you've had for the last couple of weeks. You'd make a good political pollster.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think Bush has been solid as the nickel. Two bad games, but overall pretty good.

I think Collins has been solid as the SS. He's missed a few interceptions, but he covers better than the others (he's much faster), and tackles solidly.

I think Bigby has been solid as the FS. He gives up some plays (especially in coverage on TEs), but he also has a knack for causing fumbles and he hits hard.

I think Rouse has been solid the last two games, but he's missed about 5 tackles and faced Brooks Bollinger and Vinny Testaverde. The jury is still out on him, but the initial results are encouraging.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Christ.

Getting the best players on the field is a legitimate objective.

I can't even deal with your ridiculous accusations.

This place is very hostile to off-the-track thinking. Stifling.

[ND72]

I like Bush, but I think he's the bottom of the talent pool compared to the rest of the group. I think Collins has underachieved, but he's still young and is still growing. I think Rouse could potentially be better than Collins in the long run...but I donno. I still like Collins...

[Harlan Huckleby]

Then that's just silly. Why didn't you just run a poll asking which player is the worst of those four?

Fine. Just think of the question this way.

Are we here for conversation or to be bitches? I'm sick of the sniping.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Christ.

Getting the best players on the field is a legitimate objective.

I can't even deal with your ridiculous accusations.

This place is very hostile to off-the-track thinking. Stifling.

Spare me the persecution bit. How could one not think about position when doing this type of comparison? Bush is a corner. If we play 5 DBs, the 5th guy is going to be a corner. Maybe we can add Brady Poppinga to the poll--since position isn't considered.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Christ.

Getting the best players on the field is a legitimate objective.

I can't even deal with your ridiculous accusations.

This place is very hostile to off-the-track thinking. Stifling.

Spare me the persecution bit. How could one not think about position when doing this type of comparison? Bush is a corner. If we play 5 DBs, the 5th guy is going to be a corner. Maybe we can add Brady Poppinga to the poll--since position isn't considered.

fuck you with the persecution crap.

Poppinga obviously can't play in the secondary. It's not so obvious who can play in the safety/nickle positions.

[Scott Campbell]

This place is very hostile to off-the-track thinking. Stifling.



......I'll make it $200. Anyone?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Then that's just silly. Why didn't you just run a poll asking which player is the worst of those four?

Fine. Just think of the question this way.

At this point, I'd say Rouse.

[Scott Campbell]

I voted for Rouse.

[Freak Out]

This place is very hostile to off-the-track thinking. Stifling.



......I'll make it $200. Anyone?

....I'll take Rouse for $200 Alex.

[gbpackfan]

Christ.

Getting the best players on the field is a legitimate objective.

I can't even deal with your ridiculous accusations.

This place is very hostile to off-the-track thinking. Stifling.


Well if you put it that way, why didn't you include Favre and Driver in the poll? Your question doesn't work. Bush can not be replaced by any of the other players on your poll. I have to agree with Harlan on this one.

[FritzDontBlitz]

This place is very hostile to off-the-track thinking. Stifling.



......I'll make it $200. Anyone?

I'll put down $500 on Stifling to win, too...

[Harlan Huckleby]

Bush can not be replaced by any of the other players on your poll.

You might be right. Probably you are right. But I'm not convinced that Collins couldn't play nickle. Ya, the poll is slightly fishy, but choosing the weakest player is interesting.

I think somebody who attends the games regularly could say a lot more about Collins coverage skills than a tv viewer. We don't see much of the secondary on tv. Just the prancing and arm-waving at the end.

[FritzDontBlitz]

Bush can not be replaced by any of the other players on your poll.

You might be right. Probably you are right. But I'm not convinced that Collins couldn't play nickle. Ya, the poll is slightly fishy, but choosing the weakest player is interesting.

I think somebody who attends the games regularly could say a lot more about Collins coverage skills than a tv viewer. We don't see much of the secondary on tv. Just the prancing and arm-waving at the end.

I think Kampmann would be an awesome shutdown corner.
:P

[Freak Out]

I think somebody who attends the games regularly could say a lot more about Collins coverage skills than a tv viewer. We don't see much of the secondary on tv. Just the prancing and arm-waving at the end.

That brings a question to mind. When the hell are we going to get the full view option with our digital TV? In this day and age we should be able to pull up any camera just like the producer.

[Freak Out]

Bush can not be replaced by any of the other players on your poll.

You might be right. Probably you are right. But I'm not convinced that Collins couldn't play nickle. Ya, the poll is slightly fishy, but choosing the weakest player is interesting.

I think somebody who attends the games regularly could say a lot more about Collins coverage skills than a tv viewer. We don't see much of the secondary on tv. Just the prancing and arm-waving at the end.

I think Kampmann would be an awesome shutdown corner.
:P

Well..we've seen him get one hell of a bump at the line!

[Harlan Huckleby]

That brings a question to mind. When the hell are we going to get the full view option with our digital TV? In this day and age we should be able to pull up any camera just like the producer.

That would be cool. I'd also like to be able to remove all the distracting crap off the screen, too. But I suppose it is their production. They need more views of the whole field, that's for sure. Or maybe I just need season tickets.

[Freak Out]

That brings a question to mind. When the hell are we going to get the full view option with our digital TV? In this day and age we should be able to pull up any camera just like the producer.

That would be cool. I'd also like to be able to remove all the distracting crap off the screen, too. But I suppose it is their production. They need more views of the whole field, that's for sure. Or maybe I just need season tickets.

Season tickets would be nice...but commuting from Anchorage to GB for every home game is not something I've budgeted for....yet. :lol:

[gbpackfan]

Well, I have season tickets and I go to every game. Even watching the game live, it's hard to tell. Playing bump and run coverage on a WR is a lot different then covering deep or picking up a man in zone coverage. The only way we would really know is if he played a game at CB.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Well, I have season tickets and I go to every game. Even watching the game live, it's hard to tell. Playing bump and run coverage on a WR is a lot different then covering deep or picking up a man in zone coverage. The only way we would really know is if he played a game at CB.

Do they ask the nickle to play bump and run? I'm not sure that the skills for playing nickle are that different than free safety. A bit more man-on-man, but not typically against the fastest reciever. Collins is no slow poke.

And I agree we'd have to see to know. The coaches know without seeing a game, I suspect. Collins at nickle may be a ridiculous idea - or a reasonable one.

[mraynrand]

I'd rather have a corner covering WRs than a S, so Bush has to be in the game for dime situations.

Harvey, my hypothetical question was to not think this hard

*SIGH*

[ND72]

not to side track, but did anyone else see Patrick Dendy getting worked on sunday by our WR's? :lol:

[RashanGary]

I voted Rouse, but if he plays a great game against Detroit and Dallas, I'll be open to reconsidering in place of Collins.

I like Jarrett Bush. I think he might be part one of the two part problem, that is replacing both Chuck and Al within 2-3 years.

I love Atari Bigby but he does do a few things wrong in coverage. Hopefully he can get some of his technique fixed.

Collins is a solid player. I acctually trust him back there and he is a good tackler. If Rouse does all that and gets INT's too, I'm all for the change.

[KYPack]

This gives us cushion.

Rouse at 100% will be better than Collins at 80%

Collins at 100% plays and starts.

With Rouse, we've got a good kid who may just be a star someday. He ain't gonna replace Nick this year, unless Collins knee doesn't come around.

These nickle questions make me think some of ya don't understand the nickle at all.

[Scott Campbell]

These nickle questions make me think some of ya don't understand the nickle at all.


Neither did Brett, so were in good company.

[Harlan Huckleby]

These nickle questions make me think some of ya don't understand the nickle at all.

Do you think Nick Collins could play nickle?

I am not EXACTLY sure of the skill-set for a nickle. Interesting comment on tv tonight (I think from Champ Bailey?), only about half a dozen corners in the NFL are capable of playing "true man to man." By this I take it that most man-to-man schemes provide some safety help to the corner, they aren't totally on an island.

[Lurker64]

I'm not aware of a defensive formation (short of umbrella coverage) that runs three safeties, and the skillset for a corner and a safety are sufficiently different and I don't think any of the youngsters could play both (Charles Woodson, for example, could play either position).

So I'm going to have to go with the safety that's shown us the least, that being Rouse. Rouse might be a superstar with time, but he hasn't shown me to be solid in coverage and he still takes bad angles. With seasoning, he could be great. But for now I'm anxious for Collins to be back at 100% and mostly looking for Rouse to not screw up/make an impact on special teams.

[mraynrand]

These nickle questions make me think some of ya don't understand the nickle at all.

Do you think Nick Collins could play nickle?

I am not EXACTLY sure of the skill-set for a nickle. Interesting comment on tv tonight (I think from Champ Bailey?), only about half a dozen corners in the NFL are capable of playing "true man to man." By this I take it that most man-to-man schemes provide some safety help to the corner, they aren't totally on an island.

Give that man a cigar! Yep, a lot of corners just play inside or outside technique and 'steer' their guy to the safeties or to a zone. That's why when you hear them say that corners are playing man 'underneath' that means they play man until the receiver gets a certain depth, then they release. True man to man, requires you to stay with one guy for the duration of the play. And when you have a shut down corner like a Deion Sanders in his prime (time), you basically can eliminate the opponent's best WR and then play whatever you want against the rest of the offense. That's why Woodson and Harris are so valuable, because they do play true man to man on a good number of plays every game. At other times, depending on the down and distance, they will play a limited man coverage and release their guy to the safeties if he tries to drag them across the middle. The Packers are much better at this than last year (they got smoked by crossing routes against the the Jets and Patsies) because of better QB pressure and because of overall better cooperation in the secondary .

[Harlan Huckleby]

that runs three safeties, and the skillset for a corner and a safety are sufficiently different

I could be off base on this, but I doubt that a very fast, starting free safety would have trouble adjusting to the nickle position. Only "trouble" would be accepting the demotion. I doubt the nickle back ever has to cover a #1 or #2 receiver man-to-man.

I'm not suggesting a saftey could typically be a starting CB!

[HarveyWallbangers]

that runs three safeties, and the skillset for a corner and a safety are sufficiently different

I could be off base on this, but I doubt that a very fast, starting free safety would have trouble adjusting to the nickle position. Only "trouble" would be accepting the demotion. I doubt the nickle back ever has to cover a #1 or #2 receiver man-to-man.

Not necessarily. Harris usually plays RCB. Woodson takes the slot receiver on the left. There are times when the nickel has to play the #1 or #2 receiver. Most of the time he'd have safety help over the top though. Most safeties aren't good enough to cover good WRs one-on-one. The few that can (Butler, Ed Reed), etc. are usually All-Pro guys. Hell, our safeties have a hard time covering TEs at times.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Is Al still covering #1 receivers the whole game? I haven't heard much made about that this year. He could be, but it seems to me that he's playing RCB on most plays--unless the offense has two wides to the right.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Nick's bio at packers.com

http://www.packers.com/team/players/collins_nick/

It's rare for a team's fastest defensive back to be a safety, but it's true here, and his speed allows him to shift from safety to cornerback in different defenses if needed.

[Partial]

I don't think someone like Collins would be a stud as a corner or anything like that, but I think he'd probably decent as a nickelback.

[Harlan Huckleby]

College report.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft05/tracker/player?id=8179

As a senior in 2004, Collins moved to cornerback and once again was a fulltime starter.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't think someone like Collins would be a stud as a corner or anything like that, but I think he'd probably decent as a nickelback.

I bet he'd be better than Jarrett Bush. I don't know, I'm just speculating, but I bet the coaches would have a definitive answer.

[mraynrand]

Nick's bio at packers.com

http://www.packers.com/team/players/collins_nick/

It's rare for a team's fastest defensive back to be a safety, but it's true here, and his speed allows him to shift from safety to cornerback in different defenses if needed.

Yes he can shift to man, he has the speed, but he's been burned horribly in that position in several games. None worse than against NO last year. It's not just an issue of speed for Collins. I think his biggest problem in general is indecision - both in man coverage and as a safety.

[mraynrand]

I don't think someone like Collins would be a stud as a corner or anything like that, but I think he'd probably decent as a nickelback.

I bet he'd be better than Jarrett Bush. I don't know, but I bet the coaches would have a definitive answer.

I think Bush is steadily improving.

[HarveyWallbangers]

College report.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft05/tracker/player?id=8179

As a senior in 2004, Collins moved to cornerback and once again was a fulltime starter.

Who cares? Plenty of pro safeties were corners in college. He played at Bethune-Cookman. I doubt he played more than one or two WRs that play in the pros. Playing corner is more than just speed.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think if somebody asked Nick Collins if he was able to play nickle corner he would sneer and walk away.

[mraynrand]

I think if somebody asked Nick Collins if he was able to play nickle corner he would sneer and walk away.

Or maybe limp away.

[SkinBasket]

I think if somebody asked Nick Collins if he was able to play nickle corner he would sneer and walk away.

Then get on his purple unicorn and fly away to the land of Chocolate and Ice.

[Zool]

Candy mountain Charlie. It's got joy......and joyness.

[Partial]

Candy mountain Charlie. It's got joy......and joyness.

It's a leopluraldon charlie. A magical leopluraldon

[Carolina_Packer]

HH, I'm feelin' ya. You seem to be saying, hypothetically or in a vacuum where you strip away labels like safety and cornerback and just consider athleticism, playmaking, and instincts/smarts, then who would you go with? I would go with Rouse over Bush because I think long-term, he's going to be a better player. I wouldn't choose Rouse over Collins (yet). Not enough information.

What would you think of having Bigby play SS on obvious running situations and Rouse for obvious passing situations? Is Rouse better in coverage? If so, wouldn't he be better to have in there in obvious passing situations vs. Bigby? Plus, it keeps them both engaged and doing what they do best.

[hurleyfan]

Wow,
thought I was back on jsonline for a minute :!:

[mission]

not many former corners here obviously. Collins is a safety for two reasons: stiff hips and poor ball skills. Has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with why he is an underachieving safety

[Harlan Huckleby]

not many former corners here obviously. Collins is a safety for two reasons: stiff hips and poor ball skills. Has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with why he is an underachieving safety

I'm not reading a lot of good words about Jolly Old Saint Nick. (Other than the guy who constructed a statistical proof that Brian Dawkins is not that much better.)

If Rouse performs well, they should just keep him as the starting free safety. I don't trust anyone's judgement here, least of all my own, about whether Bush or Collins can cover better in a nickle role. But if Collins is inferior here too, let him be the super backup at safety.

The reason to stick with Collins is comfort level, he's a known decent player. I simply hope that Rouse plays well enough to justify a risk. I don't understand why people would reject out of hand the possibility of taking such a calculated risk.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm not reading a lot of good words about Jolly Old Saint Nick.

Did you look at the results of your own f'd up poll?
:D

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm not reading a lot of good words about Jolly Old Saint Nick.

Did you look at the results of your own f'd up poll?
:D

I don't understand your point.

edit: OK, you think the fact that most people think Rouse and Bush are worse is an endorsement of Nick Collins.

Rouse is an untested rookie, of course many people are going to vote him off the Island. And Bush is a nickle back, a late round pick.

[Harlan Huckleby]

What would you think of having Bigby play SS on obvious running situations and Rouse for obvious passing situations?

I would think of doing it, but that doesn't make it a good idea. I haven't heard of any NFL team doing this, probably because they try and build chemistry in the starting secondary.

[4and12to12and4]

Bush played Probowl type football in the preseason which got him where he is, but all I know is that I'm sick of watching him one or two steps behind his guy five times a game, he is the weak link on this team that a "Dallas" team in the playoffs can exploit against TO and co. I don't like him, I hope Rouse continues his outstanding play and I want him out there, I don't care that he's a rookie, he has better instincts than Bush, and Bush gives up too many third down plays. He will not make the team next year.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Bush has been pretty darn solid for a nickel corner. He had a couple of bad games, but most teams struggle at that spot. It's hard to find two good corners--not to mention three. I think he has intriguing potential, and I'd be surprised if he weren't on the team next year--although it would be a good battle between him, Blackmon, and Williams if GB drafted a corner high. If you have good corners though, you keep them--just ike the DL. So, keeping 6 corners wouldn't be out of the question--like us keeping 6 WRs and 11 DL.

[4and12to12and4]

Bush has been pretty darn solid for a nickel corner. He had a couple of bad games, but most teams struggle at that spot. It's hard to find two good corners--not to mention three. I think he has intriguing potential, and I'd be surprised if he weren't on the team next year--although it would be a good battle between him, Blackmon, and Williams if GB drafted a corner high. If you have good corners though, you keep them--just ike the DL. So, keeping 6 corners wouldn't be out of the question--like us keeping 6 WRs and 11 DL.

I don't understand your love for this guy and Ryan Grant. They are not very good players. Any one could run for 100 yards against that Denver defense, and I watched that game 3 times, and he should've had 200 yards with the holes he had to work with, and MM had a GREAT running scheme set up against the Vikings and he did OK with it, but wasn't that impressive, he did break a nice tackle at the end of that 30 yard gallop for a score, but other than that, the scheme and line were the reason for his success. As far as Bush goes, what is so good about him, he gets beat constantly, not badly, he's usually right there to make the tackle, but his coverage skills are worse than Manuels. I hope he just needs to learn our system to be in better places, but so far he doesn't seem to be very instinctive, because for his speed and quickness, he should have more passes defended and less tackles. Maybe I'm being too hard on him. I just haven't seen much positive from him. I'd rather see Walker out there.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't understand your love for this guy and Ryan Grant. They are not very good players. Any one could run for 100 yards against that Denver defense, and I watched that game 3 times, and he should've had 200 yards with the holes he had to work with, and MM had a GREAT running scheme set up against the Vikings and he did OK with it, but wasn't that impressive, he did break a nice tackle at the end of that 30 yard gallop for a score, but other than that, the scheme and line were the reason for his success. As far as Bush goes, what is so good about him, he gets beat constantly, not badly, he's usually right there to make the tackle, but his coverage skills are worse than Manuels. I hope he just needs to learn our system to be in better places, but so far he doesn't seem to be very instinctive, because for his speed and quickness, he should have more passes defended and less tackles. Maybe I'm being too hard on him. I just haven't seen much positive from him. I'd rather see Walker out there.

I got news for you. Nickel corners get beat. You'll probably see him get beat tomorrow going up against some damn good #3 and #4 receivers, but he's not a consistent weak spot like Ahmad Carroll was. I like the fact that he's a young corner with the size and speed teams look for who isn't a glaring weakness. That's about all you can judge a nickel corner from the TV. I don't have the coach's tape.

It's just too damn obvious what there is to like about Grant over Jackson. How about everything. He's bigger (6'1" 220). He's just as fast (4.45) as Jackson. He hits the hole decisively, and he hits it hard. He's shown one-cut ability.

[Partial]

Bush has been pretty darn solid for a nickel corner. He had a couple of bad games, but most teams struggle at that spot. It's hard to find two good corners--not to mention three. I think he has intriguing potential, and I'd be surprised if he weren't on the team next year--although it would be a good battle between him, Blackmon, and Williams if GB drafted a corner high. If you have good corners though, you keep them--just ike the DL. So, keeping 6 corners wouldn't be out of the question--like us keeping 6 WRs and 11 DL.

I think he would stick because he is excellent on special teams. He has been involved in two or three turnovers on the punting unit thus far.

[4and12to12and4]

I don't understand your love for this guy and Ryan Grant. They are not very good players. Any one could run for 100 yards against that Denver defense, and I watched that game 3 times, and he should've had 200 yards with the holes he had to work with, and MM had a GREAT running scheme set up against the Vikings and he did OK with it, but wasn't that impressive, he did break a nice tackle at the end of that 30 yard gallop for a score, but other than that, the scheme and line were the reason for his success. As far as Bush goes, what is so good about him, he gets beat constantly, not badly, he's usually right there to make the tackle, but his coverage skills are worse than Manuels. I hope he just needs to learn our system to be in better places, but so far he doesn't seem to be very instinctive, because for his speed and quickness, he should have more passes defended and less tackles. Maybe I'm being too hard on him. I just haven't seen much positive from him. I'd rather see Walker out there.

I got news for you. Nickel corners get beat. You'll probably see him get beat tomorrow going up against some damn good #3 and #4 receivers, but he's not a consistent weak spot like Ahmad Carroll was. I like the fact that he's a young corner with the size and speed teams look for who isn't a glaring weakness. That's about all you can judge a nickel corner from the TV. I don't have the coach's tape.

It's just too damn obvious what there is to like about Grant over Jackson. How about everything. He's bigger (6'1" 220). He's just as fast (4.45) as Jackson. He hits the hole decisively, and he hits it hard. He's shown one-cut ability.

I totally agree with those statements I "colorized". Especially that white boy they got catching everything in the middle of the field "mcdonald or something", he's gonna tear our nickel a knew asshole. And in no way did I or would I compare him to Ahmad Carrol, he got beat consistently, but when he got beat, his guy usually ended up in the end zone, that's why I said he's a step or two behind, and has too many tackles, but, yeah, I guess that's not bad for a nickel guy, I guess I'm just spoiled because of Harris and Woodson. We are going to agree to disagree about Grant and Jackson, I like Grant's speed, but he seems to be the type of guy that is just gonna always have nagging injuries, and I just think that Jackson is a more punishing running back that can do more between the tackles. If given the chance. Maybe you're right, I do love watching Grant show off that speed in the open field, and can squeeze through some tight holes, he's much better than Morency, that's for sure.

[Bretsky]

I don't understand your love for this guy and Ryan Grant. They are not very good players. Any one could run for 100 yards against that Denver defense, and I watched that game 3 times, and he should've had 200 yards with the holes he had to work with, and MM had a GREAT running scheme set up against the Vikings and he did OK with it, but wasn't that impressive, he did break a nice tackle at the end of that 30 yard gallop for a score, but other than that, the scheme and line were the reason for his success. As far as Bush goes, what is so good about him, he gets beat constantly, not badly, he's usually right there to make the tackle, but his coverage skills are worse than Manuels. I hope he just needs to learn our system to be in better places, but so far he doesn't seem to be very instinctive, because for his speed and quickness, he should have more passes defended and less tackles. Maybe I'm being too hard on him. I just haven't seen much positive from him. I'd rather see Walker out there.

I got news for you. Nickel corners get beat. You'll probably see him get beat tomorrow going up against some damn good #3 and #4 receivers, but he's not a consistent weak spot like Ahmad Carroll was. I like the fact that he's a young corner with the size and speed teams look for who isn't a glaring weakness. That's about all you can judge a nickel corner from the TV. I don't have the coach's tape.

It's just too damn obvious what there is to like about Grant over Jackson. How about everything. He's bigger (6'1" 220). He's just as fast (4.45) as Jackson. He hits the hole decisively, and he hits it hard. He's shown one-cut ability.

I totally agree with those statements I "colorized". Especially that white boy they got catching everything in the middle of the field "mcdonald or something", he's gonna tear our nickel a knew asshole. And in no way did I or would I compare him to Ahmad Carrol, he got beat consistently, but when he got beat, his guy usually ended up in the end zone, that's why I said he's a step or two behind, and has too many tackles, but, yeah, I guess that's not bad for a nickel guy, I guess I'm just spoiled because of Harris and Woodson. We are going to agree to disagree about Grant and Jackson, I like Grant's speed, but he seems to be the type of guy that is just gonna always have nagging injuries, and I just think that Jackson is a more punishing running back that can do more between the tackles. If given the chance. Maybe you're right, I do love watching Grant show off that speed in the open field, and can squeeze through some tight holes, he's much better than Morency, that's for sure.

I don't think Shawn Mcdonald is white

You might be referring to Michael Furrey

[4and12to12and4]

No, I'm talking about McDonald, he just must be light brown. :oops:

[SkinBasket]

We are going to agree to disagree about Grant and Jackson, I like Grant's speed, but he seems to be the type of guy that is just gonna always have nagging injuries, and I just think that Jackson is a more punishing running back that can do more between the tackles. If given the chance. Maybe you're right, I do love watching Grant show off that speed in the open field, and can squeeze through some tight holes, he's much better than Morency, that's for sure.

That's a tough argument to make given how each hits the line, and I suspect most people would have an opposite view of who is more "punishing." Grant's shown an ability to keep his shoulders square and break tackles heading through the line. Jackson tries to slip through, turns his shoulders, and from what little we've seen, goes down on first contact often. Theres a decisiveness in Grant's runs that just isn't there right now for Jackson. I'm starting to think Jackson's going to be an excellent 3rd down type back, but not an every down workhorse.

[Bretsky]

We are going to agree to disagree about Grant and Jackson, I like Grant's speed, but he seems to be the type of guy that is just gonna always have nagging injuries, and I just think that Jackson is a more punishing running back that can do more between the tackles. If given the chance. Maybe you're right, I do love watching Grant show off that speed in the open field, and can squeeze through some tight holes, he's much better than Morency, that's for sure.

That's a tough argument to make given how each hits the line, and I suspect most people would have an opposite view of who is more "punishing." Grant's shown an ability to keep his shoulders square and break tackles heading through the line. Jackson tries to slip through, turns his shoulders, and from what little we've seen, goes down on first contact often. Theres a decisiveness in Grant's runs that just isn't there right now for Jackson. I'm starting to think Jackson's going to be an excellent 3rd down type back, but not an every down workhorse.

:bclap: