Fire Shitty now!

[The Leaper]

I think the time has come for the Packer nation to stand up and make it known that we will no longer stand for the worthless turd's employment with the organization.

Shitty couldn't coach a DB what to do if a hot tryst with a buxom blonde was depending on it. Our young kids looked absolutely lost out there. Bigby continues to make stupid error after stupid error. Even Al Harris looked like he didn't have a clue tonight.

Shitty better be gone after this season. Biggest game of the year, and his unit laid an egg the size of Montana.

[BallHawk]

Is there anybody on this forum that thinks Shotty is a good coach?

The secondary performs well, at times, in spite of him. I wish he'd get the boot.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I think the time has come for the Packer nation to stand up and make it known that we will no longer stand for the worthless turd's employment with the organization.

Shitty couldn't coach a DB what to do if a hot tryst with a buxom blonde was depending on it. Our young kids looked absolutely lost out there. Bigby continues to make stupid error after stupid error. Even Al Harris looked like he didn't have a clue.

Shitty better be gone after this season.

I'm pretty much with you. But, to state this after a loss isn't right either. Either you believe it all year or you don't.

But, you can't make a silk purse outta a sow's ear. Bigby is not starting material. Tramon Williams shouldn't be in the game getting significant minutes.

There is a reason he played at UCF (i lived in orlando when he was there, and watched a lot of their gams), wasn't drafted, played in europe, etc.

We all want rags to riches stories, we all want to believe that we have diamonds in the rough, and we want to love and believe in our players..and often it blinds us. But, most aren't that. Bigby is what he is, not a starter.

[SD GB fan]

hey instead of complaining about it time and time after a big game, is there any way for the fans to file some sort of a petition/request to the team to make this move (firing schotty)? im sure with the packers being a publicly owned team, the fans can have some influence, cant they?

[Pacopete4]

ive been complaining as well.. i think my parents and grandparents are sick of me sayin it.. hes a freakin horrible coach

[Freak Out]

I was just thinking that...all the beer has slowed me down......

Fire the bastard!

[The Leaper]

I'm pretty much with you. But, to state this after a loss isn't right either. Either you believe it all year or you don't.

I've believed it since the day he was hired. Kurt hasn't been successful in any capacity while coaching in the NFL. His track record is horrible...and he had already been a miserable failure here in Green Bay once before.

I just want people to bring it up in the media...the discussion has to be made that we can do a lot better in terms of coaching the secondary.

I agree the talent isn't top notch other than our starting CBs...but there is no hope of improvement if the worthless turd is around. Dallas doesn't have any talent back there either...and they played a lot better than we did tonight. Why? Coaching.

[Freak Out]

ive been complaining as well.. i think my parents and grandparents are sick of me sayin it.. hes a freakin horrible coach

..are you in the Walton family? John Boy?

[Joemailman]

What if the decision to play zone wasn't Schott's? Would that matter?

Every thread needs a contrarian. :twisted:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I'm pretty much with you. But, to state this after a loss isn't right either. Either you believe it all year or you don't.

I've believed it since the day he was hired. Kurt hasn't been successful in any capacity while coaching in the NFL. His track record is horrible...and he had already been a miserable failure here in Green Bay once before.

I just want people to bring it up in the media...the discussion has to be made that we can do a lot better in terms of coaching the secondary.

I agree the talent isn't top notch other than our starting CBs...but there is no hope of improvement if the worthless turd is around. Dallas doesn't have any talent back there either...and they played a lot better than we did tonight. Why? Coaching.

I've seen past threads, so i know he isn't loved...to be kind.

But, the past couple of weeks the dbs have played decently considering that collins has been out, bigby is in, and rouse has played ok.

Ya gotta give him some credit for that.

Dallas: well, i see that a bit differently. All you really saying that Newman, Henry, Hamlin and Roy Williams are not talented?

Newman's collegiate pedigree is impeccable and he has been a very good corner for his career. Outstanding athlete. Williams was defensive ROY. 3 time pro bowler.

Hamlin was a second rounder. Starter on a team that went to the superbowl (yes, i know he didn't play, but he was the starter).

Henry dominated early last year till an injury. Started 3 years for the Browns. He is a pro bowl talent.

Watkins: Starter at FSU. 2nd year in the league. At least he played at a high level college.

Davis: Very solid backup. Good special teams. Plays in a role that bigby should for us.

Reeves: A guy. But, so is Tramon or Bush at this stage.

Jones: A guy. But, a football player.

There is no doubt they have better talent than us.

[RashanGary]

Let's not cliff dive. It's one game against a GREAT offnesive team.

Goodnight all.

IT WAS JUST ONE GAME!! RELAX!!

[The Leaper]

Dallas: well, i see that a bit differently. All you really saying that Newman, Henry, Hamlin and Roy Williams are not talented?

Newman is. The rest aren't anything special at all in coverage...Williams is a well known liability in coverage that the Cowboys actually substitute him to protect him in some situations. Hamlin and Henry are average at best IMO. The Pats lit up this secondary. Aaron Rodgers did plenty of damage to this secondary. The Dallas coaches had a better game plan to give their weak links support and disguise coverages.

[The Leaper]

But, the past couple of weeks the dbs have played decently considering that collins has been out, bigby is in, and rouse has played ok.

Ya gotta give him some credit for that.

Who have we played though? The Vikings and Lions? They don't exactly have dominating receiving corps...and our DL got pressure on the QB to help the DBs look better than they were.

Bush and Bigby are liabilities in coverage...and really haven't shown any improvement in any aspects this season.

[b bulldog]

Henry and newman were both banged up tonight.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

But, the past couple of weeks the dbs have played decently considering that collins has been out, bigby is in, and rouse has played ok.

Ya gotta give him some credit for that.

Who have we played though? The Vikings and Lions? They don't exactly have dominating receiving corps...and our DL got pressure on the QB to help the DBs look better than they were.

Bush and Bigby are liabilities in coverage...and really haven't shown any improvement in any aspects this season.

Look, I'm not in favor of either of the two..cept as backups. But, the team has played well in the secondary all year. And, with constant change.

BTW, lions do have a pro bowl receiver and a decent corp of receivers. They have passed on others. Let's give some credit. Vikings..well, the blow. :lol:

I agree about the DL, but that is always the case with any good team. No db can cover a receiver more than 5 seconds..just ain't happening.

Your assessment of the Cowboy guys is a bit misdirected.

Multiple pro bowls is multiple pro bowls. Does Roy have problems in certain areas..sure, what player doesn't. But, he does special things in the area that is his forte. We don't have a safety anywhere near that level.

Henry: Another pro bowl level guys. 10 interceptions as a ROOKIE. Was dominating last year for 8 games. Go back and look at how well he played.

Hamlin: At his worst, he is at least as good as either of our safeties. And, he brings the wood. A starter on 2 contenders tells me a lot about a player..as does coming back from a serious head injury.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Henry and newman were both banged up tonight.

I'd take them over ours. Younger, more athetic, not as limited. Woodson is great, but Harris can only play a physical press coverage. I love Al, but i recognize his limitations.

If you can play for Parcells, you can play for me.

[Fritz]

I was going to file my usual "fire Schottenheimer" new topic, as I've done before as a joke. However, I see first that the Leaper beat me to it, but that he's serious.

Think about this for a second: a team is 10 - 1, loses a big game to a good team, and the next week fires the secondary coach.

I'm not a Schottenheimer fan. I don't think he's a very good coach. But I didn't see any threads like this before the game. What happened? Why fire him now, after one loss in what is an otherwise fine season?

Talk about panicking. Talk about clutching your scrotum. Talk about your willy shriveling up. I'm sorry, Leaper - and all who agree - I respect you and enjoy many of your posts, but that's about the worst idea anyone could come up with. That's the kind of thinking that permeated this site after the Pack started off so badly last year. That's the kind of thinking that, if practiced, would result in a team having a new GM every two years and a new head coach every year, if not sooner.

You'd win zero Superbowls with that kind of thinking. Zero.

[Bretsky]

Packers often look unprepared to play zone defense; not sure where the blame lies but it goes somewhere

[packrulz]

I was going to file my usual "fire Schottenheimer" new topic, as I've done before as a joke. However, I see first that the Leaper beat me to it, but that he's serious.

Think about this for a second: a team is 10 - 1, loses a big game to a good team, and the next week fires the secondary coach.

I'm not a Schottenheimer fan. I don't think he's a very good coach. But I didn't see any threads like this before the game. What happened? Why fire him now, after one loss in what is an otherwise fine season?

Talk about panicking. Talk about clutching your scrotum. Talk about your willy shriveling up. I'm sorry, Leaper - and all who agree - I respect you and enjoy many of your posts, but that's about the worst idea anyone could come up with. That's the kind of thinking that permeated this site after the Pack started off so badly last year. That's the kind of thinking that, if practiced, would result in a team having a new GM every two years and a new head coach every year, if not sooner.

You'd win zero Superbowls with that kind of thinking. Zero.

I agree, they went to zone coverage because without Woodson in there the man coverage wasn't working. Bigby and Bush were trying to play physical but they they need to eliminate the stupid facemask, delay of game, & etc. penalties. Al Harris was losing his composure too. Still, I'm pleased with the way the team battled, the onside kick damn near worked but it glanced off a Packer, and the score was 27-24 in the 4th quarter. I look at what can be learned from this game, next time the Packers should be healthy and will know better what to expect. Like Collinsworth said, the Packers are pretty much a passing team, would they really have an advantage playing on the icy frozen Tundra in Jan? I don't think so, Dallas would pound the rock with Barber all day. The Pack is 10-2 and headed for the playoffs, I'm pleased with their progress so far, in spite of having to play 3 games in 12 days, which isn't right. They'll get healthy and bounce back.

[Maxie the Taxi]

It's a moot point.

Not a chance in hell McCarthy will dump anybody in mid-stream. It's not his style.

All I know is that past defense is more than just the secondary, as Bigguns points out. Romo had way to much time and it was obvious our banged up front four wasn't up to the task. We needed more pressure on their QB and the only way that happens is some sort of blitz scheme. We didn't get it.

When you're up against a team that's well-coached and has good receivers like Dallas, you have to decide before the game what's more important to emphasize: extra pressure on the passer or extra coverage in the secondary. Granted the Packers were banged up in both the secondary and on the d-line, but to me that just makes the choice easier. You blitz. I'm a firm believer in pressuring the passer to help your secondary, especially a young QB like Romo. Remember how teams beat the Pack when Favre was young? They blitzed him and blitzed him. Remember how New England beat the Cowboys? They blitzed Romo to death.

[The Leaper]

You'd win zero Superbowls with that kind of thinking. Zero.

I got news for you.

We aren't going to win a SB with him coaching our secondary either. Good teams have consistently made his secondaries look like a joke throughout his career. It was pathetic watching how our secondary completely fell apart because Woodson couldn't play.

Again, I ask you to name one...JUST ONE...young player that has shown any development in the last two years in the secondary. There isn't one. Collins...no. Manuel...no. Bigby...no. Underwood...no. Carroll...no.

He's just damn lucky he has Harris and Woodson...two veterans who KNOW what to do on their own.

The bottom line is that Shotty can't coach young DBs how to improve. Regardless of their talent, they are doomed to make stupid errors and not really have a clue of what to do back there. You act like he offers something to this team. I ask you...what is it that he offers?

[Ballboy]

While I agree with the coaching angle, I think last night set the stage for what the Packers need to do in the off-season.

None of the DB's that played were high draft picks...I would guess that with the DL, LB, WR and RB somewhat taken care of, the Packers will focus on DB's and OL in the draft.

[The Leaper]

While I agree with the coaching angle, I think last night set the stage for what the Packers need to do in the off-season.

None of the DB's that played were high draft picks...I would guess that with the DL, LB, WR and RB somewhat taken care of, the Packers will focus on DB's and OL in the draft.

Yeah...that is ultimately what I want. I know nothing will change in season...but if Packer fans don't start grumbling about it, nothing will change.

Collins is a relatively high pick. Schotty has done absolutely nothing to improve him in the last 2 years. High picks likely won't mean much with Schotty coaching. He is THAT bad.

[Carolina_Packer]

http://www.packers.com/team/coaches/schottenheimer_kurt/

Well, above is a link to his resume. I don't know. If he had zero talent, I don't think he would have gotten a chance to coach, even from his big brother Marty. Obviously nepotism exists, but I doubt Marty would keep bringing him to his coaching stops (or trying to as in the case of last year in San Diego when he got fired allegedly for trying to hire his brother to replace Wade Phillips).

Obviously there is a fraternity with McCarthy going to KC at the recommendation of Paul Hackett, where McCarthy coached with...you guessed it...Kurt Schottenheimer.

It's possible this problem alleviates itself if Marty gets hired for another job and is able to bring Kurt along with him to be DC, which Kurt would obviously go and do. I think that's a real possibility, assuming Marty wants one more go of it.

Funny, Thompson could have hired Wad Phillips as a return favor for Wade's dad, Bum, giving him his big chance in Houston when he was undrafted out of SMU in 1975, but he didn't. I would still rather have McCarthy, which I guess comes with Kurt Schottenheimer for the time being. I think if MM and TT had serious doubts about KS, he'd be gone, even with their past relationship.

It's amazing how much better coaches look with guys who are more talented. When Woodson is in there and Rouse is in there, we are fine, but when you have to play inexperienced guys in situations they are not ready for, then the coach stinks. Hmm. What do you think of Nick Collins looking lost in coverage last night? What about Al Harris overrunning the long reception by T.O.? How do we know that Kurt doesn't say all the right things, install a perfectly good game plan, but doesn't have the right personnel to execute it? If MM and TT want him replaced, I'm fine with that. They still know what they are doing. This is somewhat the price of a youth movement. I'm surprised that Frank Walker is not more involved as a replacement instead of just being a role player, but obviously, he was just a depth guy. Perhaps they will stock up on some more DB talent next year.

[The Leaper]

Kurt's record is horrid. If you notice, few statistics are given for where his units ranked in the NFL...because usually they are HORRIBLE.

I will admit the Chiefs had some good DBs in the mid-90s. I'm not sure if any of that can be credited to Kurt. Hasty and Carter were excellent DBs before Kurt was coaching them. He merely got lucky in KC with his brother Marty there to watch over him.

Since he left KC, it has been nothing but failure after failure. 2001 Redskins? They were OK, but nothing special. Detroit in 2002 and 2003? Ugly...his defenses gave up 26 points per game on average while he was there. He was so bad as a DC at WASH and DET that he could only get a job as an assistant with Green Bay. We all know how bad his secondary was in 2004, giving up big play after big play. The Rams in 2005 weren't any better. He hasn't done anything noteworthy in developing talent in his second gig in Green Bay either.

There is little hope for developing young DB talent as long as Kurt is in Green Bay. Sure, he's fine at dealing with veterans who can handle themselves for the most part. I think I could deal with that myself OK too. The key for assistants is how they can develop young players. Kurt is incapable of doing it.

[packers11]

DB COACHING 101 ... LOOK BACK FOR THE BALL... The young guys hardly look back, they just look at the damn receiver and try to get in their face...

^ Bigby, Bush, Williams...

Even I know to look back when the ball is in the air or THEY WILL CALL P.I. in most cases...

[Carolina_Packer]

I guess that's what separates the average to below average DB's from the good ones...can I run at full speed and somehow keep one eye on the ball and still keep track of the receiver so I don't bump him when the ball is in the air? I wonder if some DB's don't think that if they turn their head that they will lose their momentum/speed and won't be able to close on the ball once it gets close enough to contest.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

While I agree with the coaching angle, I think last night set the stage for what the Packers need to do in the off-season.

None of the DB's that played were high draft picks...I would guess that with the DL, LB, WR and RB somewhat taken care of, the Packers will focus on DB's and OL in the draft.

Yeah...that is ultimately what I want. I know nothing will change in season...but if Packer fans don't start grumbling about it, nothing will change.

Collins is a relatively high pick. Schotty has done absolutely nothing to improve him in the last 2 years. High picks likely won't mean much with Schotty coaching. He is THAT bad.

If you think that packer fans grumbing has any influence on MM or TT then i've got some prime swampland..umm, beatiful undeveloped land in florida you should look at.

[4and12to12and4]

We can't blame Kurt for the potent passing attack of the Cowboys. TO is having a great year. If you say we lost this game because of him, then you have to also say the defensive line and their coach sure be fired, because that had more to do with the drives, the time Romo had. Also, let's bench Favre for AR, since AR moved the ball on the same team Favre was throwing ducks to. We are all banged up right now, and still made a game out of it. When our dline gets healthy and Woodson is back in there, then we can judge Kurt. He was 10-1 with all these guys healthy before Thursday, so ...

[Fritz]

You'd win zero Superbowls with that kind of thinking. Zero.

I got news for you.

We aren't going to win a SB with him coaching our secondary either. Good teams have consistently made his secondaries look like a joke throughout his career. It was pathetic watching how our secondary completely fell apart because Woodson couldn't play.

Again, I ask you to name one...JUST ONE...young player that has shown any development in the last two years in the secondary. There isn't one. Collins...no. Manuel...no. Bigby...no. Underwood...no. Carroll...no.

He's just damn lucky he has Harris and Woodson...two veterans who KNOW what to do on their own.

The bottom line is that Shotty can't coach young DBs how to improve. Regardless of their talent, they are doomed to make stupid errors and not really have a clue of what to do back there. You act like he offers something to this team. I ask you...what is it that he offers?

I wrote earlier that I didn't think much of him as a coach. We agree there. But my question is what kind of panicky message do you send if you fire a guy after a loss in an otherwise fine season? If it was that awful, that terrible, where was the "fire Sh_tty" post before the game? If you lose one game and then start pointing fingers of blame, you're going backward. You're doing what losers do. If MM decides Shotty isn't the Shiz (like we do), now is not the time. You lose more than you gain by firing him now.

[Freak Out]

You'd win zero Superbowls with that kind of thinking. Zero.

I got news for you.

We aren't going to win a SB with him coaching our secondary either. Good teams have consistently made his secondaries look like a joke throughout his career. It was pathetic watching how our secondary completely fell apart because Woodson couldn't play.

Again, I ask you to name one...JUST ONE...young player that has shown any development in the last two years in the secondary. There isn't one. Collins...no. Manuel...no. Bigby...no. Underwood...no. Carroll...no.

He's just damn lucky he has Harris and Woodson...two veterans who KNOW what to do on their own.

The bottom line is that Shotty can't coach young DBs how to improve. Regardless of their talent, they are doomed to make stupid errors and not really have a clue of what to do back there. You act like he offers something to this team. I ask you...what is it that he offers?

I wrote earlier that I didn't think much of him as a coach. We agree there. But my question is what kind of panicky message do you send if you fire a guy after a loss in an otherwise fine season? If it was that awful, that terrible, where was the "fire Sh_tty" post before the game? If you lose one game and then start pointing fingers of blame, you're going backward. You're doing what losers do. If MM decides Shotty isn't the Shiz (like we do), now is not the time. You lose more than you gain by firing him now.

I think it depends on who you replace him with...but is he the problem or is it the talent. Probably it is a mix of both but I agree it is pretty stupid to start calling for his head right now. I'm really hoping TT/M3 knows when it's time to make a change in the coaching staff. But it is soothing in a way screaming for someones head after a loss like that one.

[highlander]

Is Lionel Washington accountable at all? Boy talk about a coach that is getting a free pass. I think Washington has to absorb the same critique. Yes Shotty is the head guy but from what I understand Washington is a major influence in the secondary.

[4and12to12and4]

Shotty is fine. Doesn't he get credit for how good the rookie Rouse was playing before he got injured and how good our corners were playing before Thursday, or does he just get called out when bad things happen. Why are we pointing fingers after a game that anyone with half a brain should've figured we were gonna lose with all the starters not playing and in that hostile environment. Jeez, let's get over it. We are 10-2, some here are acting like we are 2-10. We had a not so good game that we were poised to win in the 4th quarter with a backup QB and 5 guys out on defense. Lighten up. We are better off losing this game, it'll fire us up, and take pressure off the team. Let's just get the bye and win two games in the post season, and we will all be happy again!!

[Fritz]

I don't know that I agree the team was better off losing this game, but I do agree that it's been a damn fine season so far - way, way better than 99% of the posters (myself included) thought - and one loss like that one isn't reason to become suddenly dour or start blaming. What's up with the culture of blame?

So let's enjoy the ride. Some criticism is warranted, sure. I'm not saying you can't be critical. But this huge, huge outrage, as if someone deliberately dropped a baby on its head, is a little bit of an overreaction.

I do like that Leaper is bringing up the coaching issue. It's worthy of debate. Is the secondary being held back by Shotty? By L. Washington? Is Rouse's good play this rookie season being ignored by the critics? Hmm. Good questions.

[The Leaper]

If it was that awful, that terrible, where was the "fire Sh_tty" post before the game? If you lose one game and then start pointing fingers of blame, you're going backward. You're doing what losers do. If MM decides Shotty isn't the Shiz (like we do), now is not the time. You lose more than you gain by firing him now.

Whatever Fritz.

I've called Kurt the worthless turd since he was HIRED. He has no place in Green Bay as far as I'm concerned. It wasn't the Dallas game that made me realize that.

Again...NAME ME ONE YOUNG DB WHO HAS IMPROVED ON SHITTY'S TIME HERE!!! JUST FUCKING ONE!!!

The fact I've asked this three times already in this threas, and you haven't named anyone, proves the point that he should be gone.

[cpk1994]

If it was that awful, that terrible, where was the "fire Sh_tty" post before the game? If you lose one game and then start pointing fingers of blame, you're going backward. You're doing what losers do. If MM decides Shotty isn't the Shiz (like we do), now is not the time. You lose more than you gain by firing him now.

Whatever Fritz.

I've called Kurt the worthless turd since he was HIRED. He has no place in Green Bay as far as I'm concerned. It wasn't the Dallas game that made me realize that.

Again...NAME ME ONE YOUNG DB WHO HAS IMPROVED ON SHITTY'S TIME HERE!!! JUST FUCKING ONE!!!

The fact I've asked this three times already in this threas, and you haven't named anyone, proves the point that he should be gone.
Underwood was developing until he got injured and he was never the same.
Now answer this question: How can Kurt devolp players when they there is almost constant turnover? Take away Woodson and Harris, Collins is the only one who has had a significant say in GB since Kurt has been DB coach.
Rouse is a rookie. Bigby a rookie. Williams, Bush ditto. How is Kurt supposed to develop players when it ssems he has total turnover every year. As for Collins, maybe he just flat out sucks no matter who coaches him.

[The Leaper]

Underwood was developing until he got injured and he was never the same.

How do we know this? Have we seen anything conclusive on the field in that regard? I really don't think so. We've heard he has looked better in practice and camp. Who cares? Have any of us seen it on the field? Not really.


Now answer this question: How can Kurt devolp players when they there is almost constant turnover?

That is what he, and every other assistant coach in the league, gets paid for. In the free agency era, there can be a lot of turnover. If he can't do it, he deserves to be fired. It shouldn't take a coach 3 years to get everyone on the same page. It has to happen immediately...and it can if you are a good coach.

[4and12to12and4]

If it was that awful, that terrible, where was the "fire Sh_tty" post before the game? If you lose one game and then start pointing fingers of blame, you're going backward. You're doing what losers do. If MM decides Shotty isn't the Shiz (like we do), now is not the time. You lose more than you gain by firing him now.

Whatever Fritz.

I've called Kurt the worthless turd since he was HIRED. He has no place in Green Bay as far as I'm concerned. It wasn't the Dallas game that made me realize that.

Again...NAME ME ONE YOUNG DB WHO HAS IMPROVED ON SHITTY'S TIME HERE!!! JUST FUCKING ONE!!!

The fact I've asked this three times already in this threas, and you haven't named anyone, proves the point that he should be gone.

Just one? How about Underwood if he didn't get injured, and Rouse was looking real good until his injury, and who knows, maybe Woodson doesn't play as well as he is if not for Shotty. There's no way for us to know that.

[cpk1994]

Underwood was developing until he got injured and he was never the same.

How do we know this? Have we seen anything conclusive on the field in that regard? I really don't think so. We've heard he has looked better in practice and camp. Who cares? Have any of us seen it on the field? Not really.


Now answer this question: How can Kurt devolp players when they there is almost constant turnover?

That is what he, and every other assistant coach in the league, gets paid for. In the free agency era, there can be a lot of turnover. If he can't do it, he deserves to be fired. It shouldn't take a coach 3 years to get everyone on the same page. It has to happen immediately...and it can if you are a good coach.Yes there is turnover in the era of FA, but it is hard to develop a player if you have only one season, especially if these players are rookies, That is what Kurt has had to deal with.

[The Leaper]

Just one? How about Underwood if he didn't get injured, and Rouse was looking real good until his injury, and who knows, maybe Woodson doesn't play as well as he is if not for Shotty. There's no way for us to know that.

Rouse is intriguing, but we haven't seen much of him yet. Whether or not he is improving is impossible to tell. I'm not really being critical as much with the new guys this year, although I'm very disappointed when a guy like Bigby or Bush continues to make the same stupid mistakes in week 13 that they did in weeks 1-12. At what point does the coach get them to stop making these very correctable errors? It has nothing to do with talent...it has everything to do with mental fortitude and proper coaching.

I do know that Carroll didn't show any progress. Didn't Schotty have Carroll as a rookie too? Manuel wasn't able to integrate into our scheme by his second year with the team. Collins hasn't taken a step forward...he continues to wallow in mediocrity and can't catch a pass if the ball was covered in glue. Underwood is still a question mark to all of us. We've barely seen the guy on the field. The fact he's getting dumped for Nall isn't a sign that he's ready to be a contributor in the NFL...because Nall sure as hell isn't.

There isn't one legitimate sign ON THE FIELD that Kurt has improved anyone. Harris and Woodson know what to do. The rest of the guys have continued to make the same mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

What more needs to be said?

[The Leaper]

Yes there is turnover in the era of FA, but it is hard to develop a player if you have only one season, especially if these players are rookies, That is what Kurt has had to deal with.

Is it hard to get a player to realize he can't grab someone's facemask and keep giving away 15 yards in crucial situations?

How long should that take to get accomplished? Just looking ballpark, here CPK.

Let me answer that for you. A good coach will put a stop to that nonsense pretty damn quick.

[Tarlam!]

With our DBs playing really well these days, do we still want to see Schotty fired?

[Partial]

I would. I think with our talent on defense, a more aggressive scheme with really benefit us. Our corners are good enough that they would be able to hold their own in man coverage.

[Tarlam!]

I would. I think with our talent on defense, a more aggressive scheme with really benefit us. Our corners are good enough that they would be able to hold their own in man coverage.

Huh? We play bump with our corners. What can be more aggressive than that?

If you are saying we should play the Safety up further like Seattle/Pittsburgh, then I agree in theory. But I don't see that fitting into the overall "bend" defense.

[Partial]

A more agressive scheme up front. I want the whole defensive staff gone. I'd like to use more blitzing from our backers, send all four linemen up field , etc. Our DBs are good enough to keep with the man coverage, but our defensive coaching staff refuses to acknowledge this and send some heat. I want the whole defensive staff replaced.

[Tarlam!]

I know you'll have a lot of supporters here for your case, but I am not one of them. I say that with all due respect, Partial.

I love this defense and I share Tex's aversion to blitzing. Jim Bates designed 90% of this package and Sanders is well liked by his players.

But this thread, started nearly a year ago, called for Schotty's head specifically. I am interested to know if the secondary's play has improved enough to warrant him keeping his job or not.

[sharpe1027]

I was very much against him. The DBs were consistently making key errors and not showing much improvement, IMHO.

Recently, I've been impressed with how the backups have come in and performed well. I've also been impressed with Nick Collins' new found ability to find the ball before it hits him in the back of the head.

Is it a case of players and coach finally getting on the same page? Have we just improved upon the quality of players? Did Schotty change his coaching? Has some other coach taken more interest in the DBs (MM maybe)?

I don't know, but Shotty's record doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence that he is behind our improved play...

It won't break my heart if, after the DBs performance this year, some other team offers him a promotion to a D-coordinator or such and we get someone else in there.

[Fritz]

If it was that awful, that terrible, where was the "fire Sh_tty" post before the game? If you lose one game and then start pointing fingers of blame, you're going backward. You're doing what losers do. If MM decides Shotty isn't the Shiz (like we do), now is not the time. You lose more than you gain by firing him now.

Whatever Fritz.

I've called Kurt the worthless turd since he was HIRED. He has no place in Green Bay as far as I'm concerned. It wasn't the Dallas game that made me realize that.

Again...NAME ME ONE YOUNG DB WHO HAS IMPROVED ON SHITTY'S TIME HERE!!! JUST FUCKING ONE!!!

The fact I've asked this three times already in this threas, and you haven't named anyone, proves the point that he should be gone.

Nick Collins
Atari Bigby
Tramon Williams

[boiga]

I'm actually very impressed with the improvement in our safeties. Bigby was on a Packers TV show not too long ago and showed good understanding about how to defend against run/pass options without getting burned. Nick Collins hasn't lost containment due to a bad angle in a long time either, although he's still not great against the run. These improvements show good coaching taking advantage of native talent, so Shotty seems to be doing his job.

In regards to coaches on the bubble, I'd be more eager to sack Campen or Stock. The number of OL and ST penalties so far this year has been embarrassing.

[MJZiggy]

A more agressive scheme up front. I want the whole defensive staff gone. I'd like to use more blitzing from our backers, send all four linemen up field , etc. Our DBs are good enough to keep with the man coverage, but our defensive coaching staff refuses to acknowledge this and send some heat. I want the whole defensive staff replaced.

Fritz? Is that you?

[SkinBasket]

I want to burn Shotty and Partial together then have a BBQ for Colin Cole.

[Bretsky]

my dislike for Schotty is from witnessing far more then this years improvement so far in individuals. It stems from missed assignments, mass confusion, and turmoil I've witnessed from even the talented players.

My view on him has not changed; I'll have to see consistency a lot longer for it to.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

If it was that awful, that terrible, where was the "fire Sh_tty" post before the game? If you lose one game and then start pointing fingers of blame, you're going backward. You're doing what losers do. If MM decides Shotty isn't the Shiz (like we do), now is not the time. You lose more than you gain by firing him now.

Whatever Fritz.

I've called Kurt the worthless turd since he was HIRED. He has no place in Green Bay as far as I'm concerned. It wasn't the Dallas game that made me realize that.

Again...NAME ME ONE YOUNG DB WHO HAS IMPROVED ON SHITTY'S TIME HERE!!! JUST FUCKING ONE!!!

The fact I've asked this three times already in this threas, and you haven't named anyone, proves the point that he should be gone.

Nick Collins
Atari Bigby
Tramon Williams

BuuuuhURN!!!!!!!!

[pbmax]

I cannot believe I wasn't on this thread from last year, although it was easier to complain when the D was worse and we were 4-8 in '06.

Schottenheimer's incompetence may have been overestimated, but I am not quite sold yet. Remember, his specialty is safeties. Bigby has improved, but he still can be lost in coverage and going backwards. Peprah and Culver seemed to improve under him, but Rouse looks close to where he was last year. Bush was a late addition to the safety position after his time at CB in camp, so that's hard to judge him on.

The unknown is Collins. How he rediscovered his game hasn't been dissected anywhere that I am aware of. For two years he seemed to go backwards, but this year he is playing better than he ever has, especially in run support. And he is finding the ball again.

If he helped Collins out, then a big question mark is removed. If it was in spite of rather than because of, then I think KS remains questionable.

[The Gunshooter]

Actually TT should fire the whole damn team except Jennings, Rodgers and Woodson. The rest of them just take turns fucking up.

[SnakeLH2006]

Actually TT should fire the whole damn team except Jennings, Rodgers and Woodson. The rest of them just take turns fucking up.

Woodson will be a helluva coach when he's done. What a FA signing by none other than TT....crazy if you think about it, but that man is a thinking man's CB, as anyone who remembers his Heisman year 10 years ago knows he's lost several steps in speed, but just knows EXACTLY where to be.

[Guiness]

I was one who would have liked to see Schot go, and although the defensive backfield is playing well, I can't say I'm off that wagon yet.

In the past it seemed that he wasn't getting the most out of the good players, and wasn't doing enough to cover for the deficiencies in the marginal players. That seems to have changed this year, where we see one undrafted FA (Williams) and one guy who bounced around (Bigby) playing well. And the guys that should be our marquee players, Harris, Woodson and Collins looking like they are. The other DSs are marginal, and I'm afraid when they're on the field...so he still doesn't seem to be able to gameplan around covering their deficiencies...

Question is are they succeeding because of him, or despite him? I doubt any of us here are in much of a position to judge that.

[SnakeLH2006]

I was one who would have liked to see Schot go, and although the defensive backfield is playing well, I can't say I'm off that wagon yet.

In the past it seemed that he wasn't getting the most out of the good players, and wasn't doing enough to cover for the deficiencies in the marginal players. That seems to have changed this year, where we see one undrafted FA (Williams) and one guy who bounced around (Bigby) playing well. And the guys that should be our marquee players, Harris, Woodson and Collins looking like they are. The other DSs are marginal, and I'm afraid when they're on the field...so he still doesn't seem to be able to gameplan around covering their deficiencies...

Question is are they succeeding because of him, or despite him? I doubt any of us here are in much of a position to judge that.

Yes...Shitty is terrible coach, yet for once we are doing well. Never been a huge Al fan but he is okay other than big games, Woodson doesn't need coaching....Bigby has been a BeastMan when healthy, and for once (albeit ina contract year) Collins has been the man. Do they/or has TT been giving them good talent to coach? I dunno, T-Will has been lights out with no problems as Al's replacement (I'm sure this cements Al's departure this offseason regardless of his injury as just how it goes, but I'm happy) yet Blackmon, Bush, etc. have looked very subpar....I'm leaning towards the coaching as they have off the charts physical skills but look lost. Yes, fire Shitty for the 2nd time.

[Fritz]

I cannot believe I wasn't on this thread from last year, although it was easier to complain when the D was worse and we were 4-8 in '06.

Schottenheimer's incompetence may have been overestimated, but I am not quite sold yet. Remember, his specialty is safeties. Bigby has improved, but he still can be lost in coverage and going backwards. Peprah and Culver seemed to improve under him, but Rouse looks close to where he was last year. Bush was a late addition to the safety position after his time at CB in camp, so that's hard to judge him on.

The unknown is Collins. How he rediscovered his game hasn't been dissected anywhere that I am aware of. For two years he seemed to go backwards, but this year he is playing better than he ever has, especially in run support. And he is finding the ball again.

If he helped Collins out, then a big question mark is removed. If it was in spite of rather than because of, then I think KS remains questionable.

This line just cracked me up, PB.

I'm not a huge Shotty fan, never have been. But now doesn't seem the time to be firing people.

The point I was trying to make last year is that good teams don't just suddenly go off in another direction the minute something doesn't work. That's a sign of failure.

If you want a more aggressive defense (I think they do need it but maybe not this week - Peyton Manning can pick apart a blitz), I think you sit down with Vanilla Bob and explain to him very patiently that Bretsky is very disappointed with the prevent defense being played, and if Ol' Bob would just step it up a bit on the aggression scale everyone would be happier.

[sharpe1027]

This line just cracked me up, PB.

I'm not a huge Shotty fan, never have been. But now doesn't seem the time to be firing people.

The point I was trying to make last year is that good teams don't just suddenly go off in another direction the minute something doesn't work. That's a sign of failure.

If you want a more aggressive defense (I think they do need it but maybe not this week - Peyton Manning can pick apart a blitz), I think you sit down with Vanilla Bob and explain to him very patiently that Bretsky is very disappointed with the prevent defense being played, and if Ol' Bob would just step it up a bit on the aggression scale everyone would be happier.

I see your point, especially if you meant change in the middle of the year. I would agree that the middle of the year is not the best time; however, at the end of the year they should be evaluating all of their coaching staff.

As far as not changing directiong, next year they could go in pretty much the same direction but with a new, more competent DB coach. They just sit the new guy down and say "this is where we are, this is were we want to get". No change of direction necessarily, just a better way of getting where you want to go. 8-)