Secondary Quality and Depth

[vince]

Some posters have been down on some members of the secondary, particularly coming out of the Dallas fiasco without Woodson. The article below caused me to make some assessments of the secondary, and speculate on what the future could hold in this area.

Safety
Contrary to some, I think the Packers are solid at the safety position with the combination of Rouse, Collins and Bigby.

I think Rouse has the highest upside of the three. He appears to be able to play the ball well, and while he has a lot to learn fundamentally in run support, his reputation is one that indicates he has the mindset to be a stout run supporter. If he can take the next step through experience, take better angles and wrap up, he could be very good.

Bigby has demonstrated inexperience against the pass, but has been stout in run support. He is an athletic guy, albeit on the short side, who I believe will get better breaking up passes and making plays on the ball. His limitation is that I think he's strictly a strong safety. With this defense, it is good to have someone like Collins (and possibly Rouse) who can play both positions interchangeably. That said, I think Bigby has the ability and will gain the experience in pass defense to be part of the solution as a starting-calibre guy. His unique ability to fill the box and provide a strong line of defense against the run is an asset, IMO.

Collins has demonstrated that he can make plays and seems to be the one that the coaches are most comfortable with running the show checking in and out of coverages in the backfield. He's not as punishing a tackler as Bigby, but is probably better in pass defense. He doesn't have as much upside as Rouse making plays on the ball, but is probably better against the run, at this point anyway. In the end, I think his ability to put the secondary in the best situation combined with his athleticism and adequacy in defending both the run and the pass make him a starter.

I think Peprah also has skills to fill depth in the roster, contribute on special teams, and play as an emergency safety, but if the opportunity comes to acquire a player who can compete with the top three, that's great.

Corner
At corner, obviously, you've got the aging starters who noone would argue against as the top two guys, but three of the other four provide interesting potential - for different reasons.

The keepers, IMO are Tramon Williams, Will Blackmon, and Jaret Bush. To get one guy out of the way, replace Walker as soon as possible, IMO. He's shown little in his years in the league, accept the propensity to give space and completions.

I think Jaret Bush has the athleticism and attitude to be an adequate last guy on the roster at corner, even though he's been largely a liability this year. His particular value is his aggressive play and effectiveness on special teams, which are important, so IMO, you keep him.

Williams is a small-built speedster who also has special teams value, but I think his ultimate value is at the nickel spot. His lack of build may preclude him from being a starting bump-and-run guy who can wear out receivers over the course of a game - in fact he's probably the one that gets worn out trying to push around some of the big receivers in today's game - but this is a guy with superior speed who can provide spot nickel play and run with slot receivers with the best of them.

Blackmon is the guy that I hope has the potential to be an every down corner in the future. We haven't seen much of him outside of his strong burst and elusiveness returning punts and kicks, combined with aggressive special teams play, but those skills would seem to translate well to corner. If he can demonstrate the ball skills in the neighborhood of Woodson, I think we've got ourselves a corner.

That leaves, IMO, a strong need for another starting corner for the future. This next offseason should be the year to draft who TT thinks could be that guy. We've still got a year or so with Harris/Woodson, so now's the time to get a young bump-and-runner and try to develop him.

http://www.packersnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071211/PKR01/712110440/1989


McCarthy goes 10 deep in secondary

By Rob Demovsky
rdemovsk@greenbaypressgazette.com

Activating all 10 defensive backs on the roster might become the norm for the Green Bay Packers the rest of the regular season.

Coach Mike McCarthy said on Monday he liked the rotation in the secondary during Sunday's 38-7 win over the Oakland Raiders, which was the first time in two seasons he kept that many defensive backs on the 45-man game-day roster.

Defensive coordinator Bob Sanders used four cornerbacks — Jarrett Bush, Tramon Williams, Will Blackmon and Frank Walker — in the nickel defensive back role against the Raiders, and it was more due to a planned rotation than because of the strained calf Bush sustained in the game. Bush finished the game, even playing in the base defense after starter Charles Woodson was pulled in the fourth quarter. Bush's status for Sunday's game at St. Louis remained up in the air on Monday, with McCarthy saying he probably won't practice until Friday.

That means it could be another week of rotating cornerbacks in the nickel defense. Sanders also gave safety Aaron Rouse a few snaps in place of Nick Collins against the Raiders and could again this week.

It's unusual for a team with an 11-2 record to be rotating players this late in the year.

"There's not a great deal of separation there," secondary coach Kurt Schottenheimer said. "Those kids all have shown at different points that they have the potential to go out and play winning football for us. Clearly, (Bush) won the third corner position coming out of training camp. We know who the top two corners are (Woodson and Al Harris), but we realize these are very skilled athletes that we'd like to get on the field as much as we possibly can. The more you get them out there against quality receivers, you get a chance to work on their development."

Come the postseason, it's hard to imagine McCarthy doing anything but going with his best player at each position, but for the remaining three regular-season games, the plan the coaches used against Oakland could continue.

"These last three games, probably the most important statistic is going to be the health of our football team," McCarthy said. "That is my focus, to make sure we enter the playoffs as healthy as possible."

McCarthy will have to find a balance between keeping key players healthy and playing to win, considering playoff seeding is on the line.

"You have to play to win; you start the game with that approach," McCarthy said. "We've come to the point where we feel comfortable putting our young players in, regardless of their experience level. Those are good problems to have. It's a great question: how do you balance it? It's something we talk about week to week in game planning."

[The Leaper]

Contrary to some, I think the Packers are solid at the safety position with the combination of Rouse, Collins and Bigby.

I think they are OK, but I still feel a strong coverage safety is necessary to take full advantage of our defensive system. There is no reason why we need 2 run-stuffing safeties in a scheme that has a dominant front 7 with lots of speed and ability. You can't stick your CBs out on an island on the edge and not have a great coverage safety behind them if you want a truly dominant and turnover creating defense. We've had plenty of chances for INTs that Collins and Bigby have let bounce off their hands of stone.

Collins seems adequate in both run support and in coverage, but probably is better in run support. Bigby seems to only have worth in run support at this point. I don't see the ball skills necessary to be a good coverage DB from him. He wants to hit people, not cover them. Rouse is a wildcard...he might be a capable coverage guy, but it is too early to know yet. The few times he's had a chance to make a play in coverage, he has. I think he could develop into the kind of player I would like back there.

If Rouse develops...I think he and Collins would be the most reliable duo. Bigby would be a nice reserve who could also be utilized effectively against run-oriented offenses. I do agree he has value there. I just have very little confidence he can ever reach an effective level as a coverage guy.

[SkinBasket]

Bigby's greatest limitations aren't his size and inexperience, they're his speed and his inability to learn our defense. He rarely has a clue where he should be in zone, and is slow to help deep. He lacks discipline both in his tackling technique and his mental game. Sure he can hit hard, but rarely gets the chance because he is out of position and doesn't have the legs to make up for it. He's more of a liability than an asset and the holes in his game affect our corners' ability to play to their potential.

I also disagree with your view on Walker. He is more than adequate as a dime back and ST player. If anyone needs to be replaced, Bush would be the leading candidate. He's been given his opportunities and has proven to be unsuited for the nickel spot and horrendous as a starter. His contributions on ST are also negligible.

I've liked Williams from preseason. I felt he had the strongest coverage skills among our back-ups and played well on ST.

[vince]

Bigby's greatest limitations aren't his size and inexperience, they're his speed and his inability to learn our defense. He rarely has a clue where he should be in zone, and is slow to help deep. He lacks discipline both in his tackling technique and his mental game. Sure he can hit hard, but rarely gets the chance because he is out of position and doesn't have the legs to make up for it. He's more of a liability than an asset and the holes in his game affect our corners' ability to play to their potential.
No doubt this is one of those "agree to disagree" areas Skin, and I really respect your perspective, but where you see lack of intelligence, I see inexperience.

I'm not prepared to say Bigby lacks the grey matter to play the pass effectively, as you are. If that were the case, he wouldn't have been given the opportunity to play in the first place. Bigby is a strong tackler, and many of the penalties he's had derive from poor judgement due to inexperience.

I'm not sure what your experience in playing the game is Skin, but I can tell you as someone who played strong safety at the collegiate level, it's not as easy as it might seem to be fighting off downfield blockers, then getting in position to lay the wood on a runner, focus in on his mid-section to determine which way he's headed and focus on your point of attack, AND determine precisely whether he's going out of bounds on his own or needs some "cajoling" in that direction, and where exactly the point of no return is. He's been penalized a couple times for that, but I think he's learning - and through experience, can improve his play.

[vince]

I also disagree with your view on Walker. He is more than adequate as a dime back and ST player. If anyone needs to be replaced, Bush would be the leading candidate. He's been given his opportunities and has proven to be unsuited for the nickel spot and horrendous as a starter. His contributions on ST are also negligible.
Walker's age and lack of upside make his dimeback skills a dime a dozen. We need a roster spot - that spot - to draft and develop the guy who can be the next starting corner. At his best, he's no better than Bush, and Bush's contributions on special teams, going back to week 1 and since, have dwarfed Walker's.

[SkinBasket]

I'm not saying he lacks intelligence in general, though his penalties suggest he might, as much as he seems simply unable to grasp his role within our passing defense. I would be, and was - earlier in the season, more than willing to chalk it up to lack of experience if he had shown some improvement in his game, but he really hasn't. Instead of reading where a routes are heading and understanding where he needs to be to help, he waits until the receiver comes uncovered and then tries to react. This might not be such a problem if he weren't so damned slow, but he is, and as a result his coverage is the weakest aspect of our defense and will be difficult to hide in the playoffs.

I can see where you and plenty of others still hold out hope that he will be able to round out his game with experience. I just don't have the same faith that he's a player that can improve to be a reliable starter instead of a multi-aspect liability. I think at this point, what you see is most likely what you get with Atari.

[The Leaper]

I would be, and was - earlier in the season, more than willing to chalk it up to lack of experience if he had shown some improvement in his game, but he really hasn't.

I agree with Skin here.

If it was truly just an inexperience factor, as Vince suggests, I think there would be at least some kind of improvement factor you could point to after 13 games. Something...somewhere. However, I just don't see much of anything that suggests an improvement in his coverage skills.

In terms of coverage, Bigby looks just as lost now as he did in game 1. He still constantly is looking to stop the run. He still is often lost when he has zone responsibility. He still is the one who is often being victimized when opponents connect on a big pass play.

Some of that I attribute to Schotty...who I think is a miserable choice to develop young talent in the secondary. Some of that I attribute to Bigby...because it shouldn't take a good coach to let you know you can't yank someone's facemask on a crucial drive in the 4th quarter.

In any case, despite almost a full season of added experience, Bigby doesn't seem to be any better in coverage for it. To me, coverage isn't necessarily something you can learn by experience. Your technique certainly can be improved, and you may gain insight from dedicated film study to identify opponent's tendencies. Yet, in terms of having natural ball skills or coverage instinct, it is either someone you have or you don't. Rouse has showed signs of having it...even in just a smidgeon of playing time. Bigby hasn't really showed it at all...despite plenty of playing time this year.