Four Pro Bowlers

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I hope I posted this right.

Also, I can't believe Woodson didn't make it.



http://www.packers.com/news/releases/2007/12/18/3/




Four Packers Earn Pro Bowl Selections




posted 12/18/2007

Represented by two selections on each side of the ball, the Green Bay Packers learned Tuesday that quarterback Brett Favre, wide receiver Donald Driver, defensive end Aaron Kampman and cornerback Al Harris were named Pro Bowl selections by the National Football League.

Three Packers players were named first alternates: linebacker Nick Barnett, tackle Chad Clifton and cornerback Charles Woodson.

For Favre, this marks the ninth Pro Bowl selection of his career and first since 2003. This season, the NFC's leader in passing yards has broken some of the league's most hallowed records, including career touchdown passes, passing yards and wins.

Driver earns his second consecutive and third career Pro Bowl selection. He tied a franchise record with 1,000 receiving yards in a fifth overall season, joining Sterling Sharpe and Pro Football Hall of Famer James Lofton as one of three Packers to achieve that feat.

Kampman, in his sixth season out of Iowa, returns to Hawaii for the second consecutive year. The defensive end has started 72 consecutive games for the Packers and stands tied for third in the NFC with 12 sacks.

Harris is the only Packers player making his first trip to the Pro Bowl. In his 10th NFL season and fifth with Green Bay, he has totaled 36 tackles, two interceptions and nine pass deflections.

Other alternates include safety Nick Collins, tight end Bubba Franks, running back Ryan Grant, linebacker A.J. Hawk, wide receiver Greg Jennings, tight end Donald Lee and center Scott Wells.

[BallHawk]

I have to say, this is bullshit.

Woodson should be there instead of Harris, without a doubt.

I think Jennings is more deserving than Driver, though I won't complain.

I can't believe Barnett isn't on there.

And how the hell are Bubba Franks and Nick Collins alternates?!?! :shock:

[CaptainKickass]

Congrat's to Al Harris.

It's about F-ing time already!

[cheesner]

At least Harris got the long-overdue recognition. Funny, he gets it now that his skills are perhaps starting to erode.

The biggest omission is Barnett. I think he is having the better season than those going to Hawaii.

[MJZiggy]

Woodson will be happy anyways. All last year, all either of the corners said was that they wanted Harris to go. This is his first Pro Bowl appearance.

[BallHawk]

Vic Carucci has the right idea...




Although Driver was more productive, the Packer receiver I would have selected was Greg Jennings, who had a much higher yards-per-catch average (17.6 to Driver's 13.0) and many more touchdowns (12 to Driver's two).

Three other Green Bay players with legitimate beefs for being left out of the Pro Bowl voting are offensive guard Chad Clifton, linebacker Nick Barnett, and cornerback Charles Woodson.

The Packers' offense is about much more than Brett Favre's ageless arm or the pass-catching skills of Driver and Jennings. Clifton had done a tremendous job of helping to give Favre ample time to throw, and in opening holes for Ryan Grant, who emerged from virtually nowhere to give the Packers a running game.

Barnett and Woodson have been two of the best players on a solid defense. Barnett is on a par statistically with the two inside/middle linebackers chosen, Seattle's Lofa Tatupu and San Francisco rookie Patrick Willis. Al Harris, the Packers' other cornerback, did make the NFC squad, which probably hurt Woodson's ability to also be selected. But Woodson has had an outstanding year and is arguably the stronger player in coverage.

[BallHawk]

At least Harris got the long-overdue recognition. Funny, he gets it now that his skills are perhaps starting to erode.

The biggest omission is Barnett. I think he is having the better season than those going to Hawaii.

Better late then never for Al. I wouldn't be surprised if the votes from coaches put him over the top.

[BallHawk]

Also, do the players vote? I don't mean online, but in a organized manner. I know that Harris has a tremendous amount of respect from WRs around the league.

[MJZiggy]

I have to say, this is bullshit.

Woodson should be there instead of Harris, without a doubt.

I think Jennings is more deserving than Driver, though I won't complain.

I can't believe Barnett isn't on there. He's not even a freakin' alternate! Unbelievable.

And how the hell are Bubba Franks and Nick Collins alternates?!?! :shock:

What do you mean? Barnett is a first alternate! As are Clifton and Woodson.

[MJZiggy]

Also, do the players vote? I don't mean online, but in a organized manner. I know that Harris has a tremendous amount of respect from WRs around the league.

Yes, they do.

[Rastak]

7 Vikings graced the team.

Adrian Peterson
Tony Richardson
Matt Birk
Steve Hutchinson
Kevin Williams
Pat Williams
Darren Sharper


For what it's worth I agree with you guys on Woodson. I voted for him.

[BallHawk]

What do you mean? Barnett is a first alternate! As are Clifton and Woodson.

Sorry, I was only reading off the list of alternates at the bottom. :oops:

[hoosier]

These things are always as much about reputation and past years as they are about this year. Ray Lewis is a prime example. Gary Brackett is far more deserving based on play this year alone. I'm not too surprised that Barnett got left off in favor of Tatupu (who's still living off his rookie year rep) and Willis (who has shined despite and because of his wretched team). As far as I can see, those three are pretty much on a par. Al Harris seems to be another one whose selection is based on previous years--though in Al's case it's kind of a makeup for the years when he was more deserving but got overlooked. The real mystery is how Bubba got selected as alternate.

[The Leaper]

The real mystery is how Bubba got selected as alternate.

How many alternates are there? How are both Bubba AND Lee alternates?

[DannoMac21]

What a joke.

[packinpatland]

Bubba????? :shock:

[woodbuck27]

I have to say, this is bullshit.

Woodson should be there instead of Harris, without a doubt.

I think Jennings is more deserving than Driver, though I won't complain.

I can't believe Barnett isn't on there.

And how the hell are Bubba Franks and Nick Collins alternates?!?! :shock:

It's like I could have written down the same comments.

BIG TIME DITTO.

[Lurker64]

It's probably not getting worked up about. How many of us were actually going to watch the pro-bowl?

[BallHawk]

It's probably not getting worked up about. How many of us were actually going to watch the pro-bowl?

That's the thing. Nobody cares about how the player plays in the Pro-Bowl, it's whether they go or not.

[MJZiggy]

Nah, but we'll be spending the whole offseason saying "well so-and-so is a PRO BOWL player!!"

[packinpatland]

It really isn't that important, but.............why can't they wait to tally the votes, or announce till after the last game of the regular season?

[hoosier]

7 Vikings graced the team.

Adrian Peterson
Tony Richardson
Matt Birk
Steve Hutchinson
Kevin Williams
Pat Williams
Darren Sharper


For what it's worth I agree with you guys on Woodson. I voted for him.

What's your impression of Kevin Williams this year? And Birk? I thought he was pretty much done after his hip injury a couple of years ago...Did he rebound?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Harvey's Pro Bowl would have included Favre, Driver or Jennings, Clifton, Woodson, Barnett, and Kampman. Other guys who should have gotten some consideration are Harris, Lee, and perhaps Pickett and Wells.

[Rastak]

7 Vikings graced the team.

Adrian Peterson
Tony Richardson
Matt Birk
Steve Hutchinson
Kevin Williams
Pat Williams
Darren Sharper


For what it's worth I agree with you guys on Woodson. I voted for him.

What's your impression of Kevin Williams this year? And Birk? I thought he was pretty much done after his hip injury a couple of years ago...Did he rebound?


Birk had a sports hernia, not really a hip injury and he's playing pretty well. Kevin Williams is having a pretty good year too. Are they the best guys for the pro bowl? Hard to say on lineman. The pro bowl selection is what it is.

[Rastak]

Harvey's Pro Bowl would have included Favre, Driver or Jennings, Clifton, Woodson, Barnett, and Kampman. Other guys who should have gotten some consideration are Harris, Lee, and perhaps Pickett and Wells.

For me Favre, Jennings, Woodson, Kampman. Strong consideration Barnett. Some consideration Harris....maybe Wells.

[OS PA]

The only player I really feel that was snubbed is Woodson.

There is a case for Barnett, because he is playing the best football of his career and he is clearly one of the top five middle linebackers in the league, but is he really playing better than Lofa? I kind of disagree that Willis is more deserving than Barnett, but the rookie is doing some very impressive things. Stat-wise, they're pretty much interchangeable.



Tckls Sacks Ints FF PDef
Patrick Willis 142 1 0 1 3
Lofa Tatupu 101 1 4 3 13
Nick Barnett 119 3.5 2 0 6

[Jimx29]

Taylor posthumously voted to NFC Pro Bowl team (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3160120)

[3irty1]

Besides Collins and Bubba non the rest really came as a surprise to me.

Al Harris may not have the stats to be a fan favorite but the players he covers respect him and coaches love his durability. Chuck is an outstanding corner as well but Al's the guy we trust with a teams biggest threat at receiver. This is pretty much the same reason DD got the nod over Jennings.

Barnett is enjoying a great year but he's just too disrespectful for his peers to send him to Hawaii. I believe everybody knows that he's a better MLB on a better defense.

[LL2]

Barnett should be on the Pro Bowl team. I hope he's pissed and takes it out on the field.

[footballfever]

The nice thing about Barnett not making it is that he's already got the contract he deserves. Having the Pro Bowl on your resume is a bargaining chip, which really sucks cause half the people that go don't deserve it and there is a large percentage of that don't go that are over deserving. The whole Pro Bowl format has to change, the game means nothing, the voting process is tainted and no one watches it anyway. If the fans are that stupid the percentage of their vote should be greatly reduced, I don't even know what percentage the fan vote counts for but IMO they should take the top player from each position that the fans vote for and thats it. After that leave it up to the players and coach's to fill out the rest of the roster and reserves.

[HarveyWallbangers]

The only player I really feel that was snubbed is Woodson.

There is a case for Barnett, because he is playing the best football of his career and he is clearly one of the top five middle linebackers in the league, but is he really playing better than Lofa? I kind of disagree that Willis is more deserving than Barnett, but the rookie is doing some very impressive things. Stat-wise, they're pretty much interchangeable.



Tckls Sacks Ints FF PDef
Patrick Willis 142 1 0 1 3
Lofa Tatupu 101 1 4 3 13
Nick Barnett 119 3.5 2 0 6

Willis plays on a poor defense and his team is 3-11. Tatupu plays on a defense that probably isn't as strong as GB and his team is 9-5.

[sepporepi]

Hmm Dallas has 11 Pro Bowlers, Vikings have 7, but Packers just 4.

So Vikings are greatly underachieving? Or are we so bad and just lucky?

Or maybe the selection process is flawed :roll: ?

[Lurker64]

Pro Bowl voting is ridiculous anyway, the whole thing is sort of a meaningless popularity contest. Seven teams have no pro-bowlers, including Tampa Bay and Jacksonville; who are, in my opinion, better than the Vikings and much better than the Vikings respectively.

The fact that teams win divisions and/or end up as a wild card team with better records than several division winners without having a single pro-bowler sort of highlights how ridiculous the whole thing is.

[Rastak]

Hmm Dallas has 11 Pro Bowlers, Vikings have 7, but Packers just 4.

So Vikings are greatly underachieving? Or are we so bad and just lucky?

Or maybe the selection process is flawed :roll: ?


Vikings QB is terrible at times and merely average at others....if not, they have a much better record than 8-6. Think about it....8-6 with a 69 passer rating quarterback and a defense everybody always says can't stop the pass?

[Tarlam!]

I am sorry for Barnett, but the two guys ahead of him are pretty worthy. I could understand Nick being pissed about being pipped by a rook.

[BallHawk]

Hmm Dallas has 11 Pro Bowlers, Vikings have 7, but Packers just 4.

So Vikings are greatly underachieving? Or are we so bad and just lucky?

Or maybe the selection process is flawed :roll: ?


Vikings QB is terrible at times and merely average at others....if not, they have a much better record than 8-6. Think about it....8-6 with a 69 passer rating quarterback and a defense everybody always says can't stop the pass?

Exactly. If the Vikings had, say, David Garrard as their QB, I think they'd be in the double-digit win category.

[RashanGary]

Favre is Favre and he deserves to go of course.


Other than that, I don't think a better trio could have been picked. Driver, Harris and Kampman are three of the hardest working players I've had the pleasure of watching. These guys making it validates their work ethic to everyone in that lockerroom.

Did they get shafted a little? Sure, but I think this plays right into a coaches hands for motivation.

[RashanGary]

Nick Collins as a probowl alternate is a big suprise.

[RashanGary]

Mike McCarthy addressing his team "You young guys want to know how to make it in this league? Look at Aaron, Al and Donald. You see them working. You see the condition they are in year after year? That's how you make a living in the NFL"

The worst thing is having a guy like Antonio Freeman make it. . . . See Freems getting drunk guys? Well, that works if you have a knack for football but I hope you don't do it because you can be better if you don't.

[b bulldog]

Actually it was Free's contract that made him lose his juice imo and he did lose a step pretty early in his career.

[esoxx]

This is good news b/c it will light more of a fire under the Packers azz. They can play the disrespect card and ride the wave. Finishing around four games ahead of your division rival and they have almost twice as many players on the team. Yeah. :roll:

Woodson really got hosed. Barnett slightly hosed. Harris hasn't played at a Pro Bowl level over the season but good to see he got recognition when for years he was overlooked.

[pbmax]

Barnett: Hosed.
Woodson: Hosed

Collins: ?
Franks: ?

Sharper: Joke.

Don't have a problem with the other Vikes.

[RashanGary]

I'm listening to the press conferences. They seem to have a chip on their shoulder. Hopefully hey harness it right and play better not worse.

[pbmax]

And four Bears:

Lance Briggs, Tommie Harris, Devin Hester and Brendon Ayanbadejo.

I wouldn't have guessed it was possible, but we are 12-2 and under the radar.

[RashanGary]

I wouldn't have guessed it was possible, but we are 12-2 and under the radar.

It sure looks that way. I acctually think that is an advantage. This team has not once gotten a big head. They keep stacking success to the point where they now have a complete offense, great ST's and a very good defense.

Are they a GREAT defense? Nope. Are they a GREAT offense? Not elite. I do think they are elite on ST's. What they are is really good at everything and while their players are young, they are very smart and football aware. They do not beat themselves. It reminds me of the Pats in the beginning. They kept winning but nobody ever gave them respect. That is what is happening here, and I think it's a good thing. I think it keeps a team motivated and hungry, feeling like they havn't arrived.

I'm excited to see a rematch with Dallas. I think we will shut a lot of people up in that game and who knows what will happen in New England. With the HGH stings hitting hard on the east coast, they might run out of HGH before the big dance.

[mmmdk]

All I care about is winning in january & february. Let's roll Packers.

[Merlin]

The Pro-Bowl is meaningless unless you have a contract incentive. Over-hyped by the media players who can thank Fox, ESPN (ABC) & NBC for their trip. Fans listen to them and players listen to them. Coaches, who knows how they vote. 10 years ago, hell up to about 5 years ago it was a lot different. It's just the world we live in, hype sells.

[Rastak]

The Pro-Bowl is meaningless unless you have a contract incentive. Over-hyped by the media players who can thank Fox, ESPN (ABC) & NBC for their trip. Fans listen to them and players listen to them. Coaches, who knows how they vote. 10 years ago, hell up to about 5 years ago it was a lot different. It's just the world we live in, hype sells.


That's a wide net you are casting there.....so Favre, Brady, Moss etc etc are a product of over-hyped media players?

[FritzDontBlitz]

I can't believe people are bitching because DD got picked over Jennings. DD is the reason teams can't doubleteam Greg and JJ. DD does all the grunt work, he moves the chains, has 200 more yards and 28 more receptions than Greg. Jennings just has the TD's.

Congrats to Ryan Grant. Is he the real deal yet? HAHAHAHAHAHA :beat:

I see 14 players from a 12-2 team getting respect from the voters, albeit not as much as some should get, but considering most in the media expected this 12-2 team to finish 4-12 again I will take it.

Quit yer bitchin.' Nobody watches the damn game anyway. Half the players selected won't even bother to attend, so there may be a couple more Packers invited by the time its over.

Congrats to all 14 who were mentioned. And I hope Bubba is back this week, we miss him in the red zone. Didn't realize until I scanned the stats just now that he hasn't played more than 6 games this season. I miss the two TE sets.

Onward to Qualcomm, kids.

[packers11]

wait how the hell is Bubba an alternative but not Lee??? :?:

Urlacher and Barnett are doing better than Willis... I'm lost with that pick...

[packers11]

Driver's interview, he seems really upset...

He said hes probably going to take Jennings...

He was also mad about Barnett, and Woodson...

[Lurker64]

I miss the two TE sets.

We still run 2 TE sets, it's just that Ryan Krause sightings are rare, for whatever reason.

[MJZiggy]

I have a theory. I think that a big piece of whether you get into the Pro Bowl this year depends on how you played LAST year...which is why Al Harris got the nod this time. He got a lot of airplay at the end of last season and the beginning of this one. Aaron Kampman just kept the same rhythm from last season as did DD and Brett. Maybe that's why Al went over Charles and Nick, because Al was better last year and that hung a bit in the minds of the players who were voting...

[FritzDontBlitz]

I have a theory. I think that a big piece of whether you get into the Pro Bowl this year depends on how you played LAST year...which is why Al Harris got the nod this time. He got a lot of airplay at the end of last season and the beginning of this one. Aaron Kampman just kept the same rhythm from last season as did DD and Brett. Maybe that's why Al went over Charles and Nick, because Al was better last year and that hung a bit in the minds of the players who were voting...

That used to be Dan Dierdorf's assertion for years, and its probably the best explanation.

Still doesn't explain Bubba, though. LOL

[MJZiggy]

Still doesn't explain Bubba, though. LOL

Hanging chads?

[FritzDontBlitz]

Still doesn't explain Bubba, though. LOL

Hanging chads?

Who's Chad?

[MJZiggy]

Not from Florida, are ya?

[FritzDontBlitz]

Not from Florida, are ya?

Nah, I got it. I was just trying to derail another thread. LOL

[MJZiggy]

Where ya at #85?

[packers11]

Its official Cowboys have 12 now...

Horse Collar is going in place of Taylor...

[pbmax]

Yes, couldn't have said it better.


I have a theory. I think that a big piece of whether you get into the Pro Bowl this year depends on how you played LAST year...which is why Al Harris got the nod this time. He got a lot of airplay at the end of last season and the beginning of this one. Aaron Kampman just kept the same rhythm from last season as did DD and Brett. Maybe that's why Al went over Charles and Nick, because Al was better last year and that hung a bit in the minds of the players who were voting...

[the_idle_threat]

Well it's a good thing TT didn't blowe a wad on a FA tight end when we have TWO Pro-Bowl alternates on the roster! 8-) Best tight end corps in the league? :lol:

[vince]

Well it's a good thing TT didn't blowe a wad on a FA tight end when we have TWO Pro-Bowl alternates on the roster! 8-) Best tight end corps in the league? :lol:
Actually, that'd be me and Jason Witten.

[]{ilr]3]

Barnett should have been there :evil:

I cant believe Jason Taylor made it again. :shock: A great player, but other than a nice sack total did nothing at all this year.

Barnett:
GS 14 Tackles 119 Solo 90 Ast 29 Sck 3.5 Int 2

Taylor:
GS 14 Tackles 48 Solo 41 Ast 7 Sck 10 Int 1


Also why is Taylor listed as started 14 games. Didnt he miss that game in London?

[the_idle_threat]

Well it's a good thing TT didn't blowe a wad on a FA tight end when we have TWO Pro-Bowl alternates on the roster! 8-) Best tight end corps in the league? :lol:
Actually, that'd be me and Jason Witten.

You're Anthony Fasano? :P

[the_idle_threat]

{ilr]3]Barnett should have been there :evil:

I cant believe Jason Taylor made it again. :shock: A great player, but other than a nice sack total did nothing at all this year.

Barnett:
GS 14 Tackles 119 Solo 90 Ast 29 Sck 3.5 Int 2

Taylor:
GS 14 Tackles 48 Solo 41 Ast 7 Sck 10 Int 1


Also why is Taylor listed as started 14 games. Didnt he miss that game in London?

Taylor's numbers are pretty good for a defensive end, actually.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The Pro-Bowl is meaningless unless you have a contract incentive. Over-hyped by the media players who can thank Fox, ESPN (ABC) & NBC for their trip. Fans listen to them and players listen to them. Coaches, who knows how they vote. 10 years ago, hell up to about 5 years ago it was a lot different. It's just the world we live in, hype sells.


That's a wide net you are casting there.....so Favre, Brady, Moss etc etc are a product of over-hyped media players?

Yes. It is all part of the zionist occupation government conspiracy. Damn Jews. :roll:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

{ilr]3]Barnett should have been there :evil:

I cant believe Jason Taylor made it again. :shock: A great player, but other than a nice sack total did nothing at all this year.

Barnett:
GS 14 Tackles 119 Solo 90 Ast 29 Sck 3.5 Int 2

Taylor:
GS 14 Tackles 48 Solo 41 Ast 7 Sck 10 Int 1


Also why is Taylor listed as started 14 games. Didnt he miss that game in London?

Taylor's numbers are pretty good for a defensive end, actually.

I'm not hearing about player dissension or anything like what we saw from the Falcons or other teams that are losing, ie, Ravens.

Just guessing, but that attitude has to come from the vets like thomas and taylor. That makes you a pro bowler, with good stats, in my book.

[b bulldog]

53 tackles, 13 sacks, 2 forced fumbles
DE, Mario Williams

[b bulldog]

I don't really mind when the young guys get the shaft cause they have many years in front of them to obtain that Hawaiian recognition. I dislike it when the older vets get the shaft.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I have a theory. I think that a big piece of whether you get into the Pro Bowl this year depends on how you played LAST year...

Good point. Pro Bowlers usually make it a year after when they first should have, and then name recognition keeps them on the team a year or two longer then they should have.

[HarveyWallbangers]

53 tackles, 13 sacks, 2 forced fumbles
DE, Mario Williams

He got left off. He should be on the team.

Mario is super. Vince Young stinks. At least, you are 50%.
:D

[b bulldog]

Like college football in a way

[RashanGary]

VY is a winner. Mario turned into a hell of a player. I think bulldog is 2 for 2 on that draft.

[b bulldog]

Actually I was pretty dead on about Reggie Bush also.

[b bulldog]

Throw enough crap against the wall and something is bound to stick. Nick, hopefully I'll be dead wrong about the next Packers/Cowboys game. :lol:

[HarveyWallbangers]

VY is a winner. Mario turned into a hell of a player. I think bulldog is 2 for 2 on that draft.

Young is a taller Mike Vick. He's average and overhyped. He's as overhyped as Reggie Bush. Bulldog likes to post stats to try to prove other guys are better than Hawk. He should post Young's stats. I'll do it for him: 171 passing yards/game, 9 TDs, 16 interceptions. He makes Vick look like John Elway in passing.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Again, have to give him credit on Mario Williams though. He might be the best player in that draft when all is said and done. And just because he was the #1 pick doesn't mean that was close to guaranteed.

[b bulldog]

His stats do suck, he has had a terrible season but he has no wr's at all. I think he will be fine. he did well last season when he had a few more weapons and I think he will do fine when he gets a few more but this year, I can't defend him.

[Deputy Nutz]

Mario Williams had like 9 sacks in his last three games or something, otherwise he was having a pretty non descriptive year. he is turning in to a monster.

[b bulldog]

Leinart is even worse, he was scared silley by the Steelers D.

[b bulldog]

9 IN THE LAST 5 GAMES. Sacks do come in bunches, look at kampman.

[RashanGary]

I don't think bulldog is right on Hawk. Hawk has played very, very solid football. I compare him to the Patroit defenders. They don't put up monster numbers, but all of them play smart, tough football. That is Hawk. He's as consistant as they get.

[b bulldog]

I think I'm dead on with hawk. On Fox sports, they have Ernie Sims as one of the biggest disappointments on not making the probowl. Ryans is starting also so I guess I am correct on my assertion that we could have passed on Hawk and still got another good LB if we traded down when the Raiders wanted to move up.

[b bulldog]

As consistent as you can get at being a what, surely not a stud. You all told me that Hawk was going to be better than Mario.

[Deputy Nutz]

I think I'm dead on with hawk. On Fox sports, they have Ernie Sims as one of the biggest disappointments on not making the probowl. Ryans is starting also so I guess I am correct on my assertion that we could have passed on Hawk and still got another good LB if we traded down when the Raiders wanted to move up.

Wrong. That is why the media doesn't vote because 90% of them look up the box score to determine who is good. The players and coaches actually watch tape on these guys and then game plan around them, and most importantly they play the game against each other.

I seriously wish you would just shut up on this, the fact is the Packer have Hawk and he contributes quite a bit to our top ten defense. I know it isn't easy to listen to JH and then he forces you to respond with the same shit you have been mumbling about for two seasons.

[Merlin]

The Pro-Bowl is meaningless unless you have a contract incentive. Over-hyped by the media players who can thank Fox, ESPN (ABC) & NBC for their trip. Fans listen to them and players listen to them. Coaches, who knows how they vote. 10 years ago, hell up to about 5 years ago it was a lot different. It's just the world we live in, hype sells.


That's a wide net you are casting there.....so Favre, Brady, Moss etc etc are a product of over-hyped media players?

I am not in the mood. Please read the entire post before you start shit again.

[RashanGary]

As consistent as you can get at being a what, surely not a stud. You all told me that Hawk was going to be better than Mario.

I never said that, but I was playing both sides of the fence in those days so my opinion doesn't count.

I would still take Hawk over either Ryans or Sims. I think he's tougher than either. Sims is very inconsistant. The game we played Detroit, we really picked on him in the pass game. He was consistantly out of position. Maybe that's why he gets so many tackles. Ryans is a damn fine football player. He's close to Hawk IMO. Hawk just plays on a better defense and plays 2nd fiddle to #56 because 56 already put in his time and earned the playmaking position in the defense.

[b bulldog]

Nutz, dead on correct and the numbers and notoriety proves it. Hawk is another overrated big ten lb. Your dead wrong!

[HarveyWallbangers]

Nutz, dead on correct and the numbers and notoriety proves it. Hawk is another overrated big ten lb. Your dead wrong!

Wrong! (See Darren Sharper.)

[b bulldog]

The simple point that we can have this arguement and that others around the league think that others in that class should have made the probowl based on merit just proves my point even more. Their is no denying that.

[b bulldog]

Sharper has had a good year, I'm fine with him going.

[Deputy Nutz]

As consistent as you can get at being a what, surely not a stud. You all told me that Hawk was going to be better than Mario.

Mario had the physical attributes, but at the same time some questioned his motor, and his skill level. I would have loved to see him there at #5, but he went #1. The Saints would have taken Hawk with the second pick if Bush wasn't available, the Jets still would have taken Ferguson, and the Packers would have had Mario, I don't think anyone would have been disappointed with that.

[b bulldog]

Larinitas will be another overrated LB who gets picked before he should.

[b bulldog]

Thompson would have taken Mario 1 and if he was gone, he would have taken Young 2.

[b bulldog]

That entire top end of the draft has honestly been a bit of a disappointment from what they were billed to be.

[Deputy Nutz]

Nutz, dead on correct and the numbers and notoriety proves it. Hawk is another overrated big ten lb. Your dead wrong!

I am confused.


Hawk is not overrated you're on crack. Funny, right after the article in the JS, Hawk totally turned his season around, he is more active, and more physical. If Hawk would have played the whole season like he has the past 8 weeks we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Hawk has been excellent since Bulldog ripped him starting in week 6, but he's too proud (or dumb) to admit it.

Also, just because a national "expert" stats something doesn't mean it's true. I've watched Ernie Sims in enough games this year to know that I'd take A.J. Hawk over him.

Can you post the link to the article that stated that Ernie Sims was snubbed?

Here's a link to an article that states Woodson was a snub, but it doesn't mention Antoine Winfield. That must mean that you are wrong and that Woodson is better than Winfield.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=3160443

[Deputy Nutz]

Thompson would have taken Mario 1 and if he was gone, he would have taken Young 2.

Thats right. Anything else you care to inform us on that we forgot to spell out.

[b bulldog]

Alex Marvez, Fox Sports.com,"Who should have made the Probowl"

[b bulldog]

Hey Harv, I'll start looking for the Hawk snubbed articles :oops: Talk about dumb :lol:

[b bulldog]

Can't find any, oh well, I must have missed them.

[Deputy Nutz]

APB wanted us to take Huff, now he is a player that has been a disappointment. I know that because I listen to sportstalk radio and I have only seen him play two games.

[b bulldog]

Woodson may be better, that's fine. Oh my, I think a Buck is better than a heisman trophy winner from UM. I thought I hated all the Bucks?

[b bulldog]

Dead on 100% correct, I liked him also so I was dead wrong on that pick. I also wasn't real crazy about Ngata and he has also done very well.

[Merlin]

Sharper has had a good year, I'm fine with him going.

Didn't Sharper have a better year last year or the year before? His stats are worse then Bigby's this year (less passes defended, less tackles, same # of ints).

[Deputy Nutz]

Dead on 100% correct, I liked him also so I was dead wrong on that pick. I also wasn't real crazy about Ngata and he has also done very well.

Ngata has been a monster this year. the fact that he has been the only Raven on the defensive line to stay healthy is also another valid point for.

[b bulldog]

Great point, it seems as though every time you see the Vikings highlights you see 42 getting a pic. The Cowboys game did really hurt what people think about Atari. It seems as though when the team is on national TV, he has a meltdown.

[RashanGary]

bulldog, Hawk is a really good player. I don't care what happens with the rest of the draft. We have a guy who will be locked in at WLB for 10 years and we will never have to worry about anything less than really good play (with a couple probowls likely sprinkled in).

[b bulldog]

Mine is opinion and so is yours. we will see how it all pans out but when the draft was being talked about, I was told numerous times that Hawk was the most NFL ready and that he was the best Dplayer in the draft. :oops: I guess that was total BS but it is still early and much can change.

[RashanGary]

Hawk doesn't hvae to be Ray Lewis. If he's another Nick Barnett, we are lucky to have two LB's that are better than many teams best linebacker.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Hey Harv, I'll start looking for the Hawk snubbed articles :oops: Talk about dumb :lol:

The point is that one guy says he's snubbed, and that's supposed to prove your opinion? That's dumb.

How about the following from Scouts, Inc.? (Notice Hawk and Sims were both on it. Also note that Hawk was named an alternate to the Pro Bowl team, so it's not like he didn't have any support).


Outside Linebackers

DeMarcus Ware, Dallas
Julian Peterson, Seattle
Lance Briggs, Chicago

Snubs

Karlos Dansby,Arizona
Michael Boley, Atlanta
AJ Hawk, Green Bay
Ernie Sims, Detroit

Ware very well could end up as the Defensive Player of the Year. Peterson can do everything well, while Briggs is once again among the league leaders in tackles. The snubs are also young and have very bright futures. Dansby will make many Pro Bowls in the years to come and Boley is possibly being the best player you have never heard of. Sims is a tackling machine on a poor defense and Hawk is right on schedule to becoming a great one.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Nice sentiment by Driver. That would be cool. They both could say they are Pro Bowl players this year then.
:D

If Driver does go, it would be cool if Favre went with him.

http://www.packersnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071218/PKR01/71218164/1989


“I would love for him to be over there,” Driver said. “It’s sad that I’m the only one going out of that receiving group.”

...

It’s the ninth time that Favre has been picked, but the first since 2003. He didn’t participate the last three times he was selected.

“You know how he gets,” Driver said. “He may go. He may not. I would love to see him go over with me.”

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Leinart is even worse, he was scared silley by the Steelers D.

You are confusing being hung over for scared.

[Bossman641]

Honestly, why do we have to go through this same shit with Hawk and Sims every week?

Hawk plays on a much better defense, he has better players around him, he plays a lot more coverage. He needs to improve his blitzing, but he has really turned it on in the 2nd half.

Sims plays on a terrible defense, they give up the most points in the NFL. He hits harder than Hawk, but from what I've seen isn't asked to play much man coverage, and when I have seen it it hasn't been pretty. He has shitty players around him so of course he will shine more.

Our D is more structured than Detroit's. Sims is allowed to be more of a freelancer. If he jumps out of his gap it's not as noticeable because their defense sucks anyways. I think Hawk does a great job of taking care of HIS responsibilities in our scheme. Maybe Sims would thrive in our rigid defense. Maybe Hawk would excel being able to run around more and just play off his pure football instincts. No one knows.

Give it up already.

[Bretsky]

Honestly, why do we have to go through this same shit with Hawk and Sims every week?

Hawk plays on a much better defense, he has better players around him, he plays a lot more coverage. He needs to improve his blitzing, but he has really turned it on in the 2nd half.

Sims plays on a terrible defense, they give up the most points in the NFL. He hits harder than Hawk, but from what I've seen isn't asked to play much man coverage, and when I have seen it it hasn't been pretty. He has shitty players around him so of course he will shine more.

Our D is more structured than Detroit's. Sims is allowed to be more of a freelancer. If he jumps out of his gap it's not as noticeable because their defense sucks anyways. I think Hawk does a great job of taking care of HIS responsibilities in our scheme. Maybe Sims would thrive in our rigid defense. Maybe Hawk would excel being able to run around more and just play off his pure football instincts. No one knows.

Give it up already.


:bclap:

[Harlan Huckleby]

Harris is a good player, Woodson is a great one. I really have to scratch my head on this one. Maybe Woodson had some down years before leaving Oakland, so people assume he is not at top of his game in GB

[HarveyWallbangers]

Alex Marvez, Fox Sports.com,"Who should have made the Probowl"

Not only do I like Hawk as much or more than Sims, I like Barnett even more. To me, he has had a much better season than Sims, and this guy named Sims as his biggest NFC snub at LB. Not respecting his opinion on this one.

I also think E.J. Henderson has had a better year than Sims (although I think the Vikes got more than they should have, so I won't feel bad for them). Barnett and Willis (and he could have waited) should be the NFC's ILBs--while Henderson, Lofa Tatupu, and Barrett Ruud should have been the alternates (in that order).

[HarveyWallbangers]

On the positive side: Woodson has been picked as the biggest snub by many, Barnett has made most snubbed lists, and Clifton has made some. Surprisingly, some people have picked Mason Crosby as a snub also. There's still one coach's pick to go and there will be some injuries. Clifton, Barnett, and Woodson are first alternates, so they have a decent chance at going when all is said and done.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

On the positive side: Woodson has been picked as the biggest snub by many, Barnett has made most snubbed lists, and Clifton has made some. Surprisingly, some people have picked Mason Crosby as a snub also. There's still one coach's pick to go and there will be some injuries. Clifton, Barnett, and Woodson are first alternates, so they have a decent chance at going when all is said and done.

I saw Chris Samuels from the skins made it. I thought he was on IR though? I think Clifton would then get the nod.

[b bulldog]

Big surprise, harv has a woody for an overrated Buckeye :roll: Well if hawk and Sims both are on the list, I guess that makes two for Sims, one for Hawk but I alsways get one heck of a kick how you think you know more than Wolf, Holgren and various sportswriters o'great one. I guess I really don't like Hawk as much as Sims and henderson is better than both.

[b bulldog]

Hawk is comparable to greenway, both play next to good MLB's right and both have similiar stats. Some people believe playing on an inferior D makes it harder to make plays cause your surrounded by just guys and they don't force things but I'm sure the great Harv will say they are all wrong :roll: Harv "thinks"he knows best! :lol:

[b bulldog]

Greenway, 82 tackles,1 forced fumble and 2 pics.
Hawk, 94 tackles, 1 forced fumble, 1 sack and 1 pic. Greenway is right with the great Hawk and he plays next to a stud MLB :lol: Greenway was snubbed! :oops: Lets see here, Ryans you said is worse than Hawk, Sims is worse than Hawk, McIntosh I don't know what you think anbout him, Greenway i'm sure is much worse also even though all of your arguements for Hawk in regards to Sims work in Greenways favor against hawk to make them pretty much the same type of player, am I missing anyone from that class?? maybe Howard from the Raiders who has 84 tackles, 1 sack and 6 pics but I'm sure Hawk is way better than him. I guess I should take the advice of an old man that told me to never debate with a person who avoids the facts :lol: By the way, some think howard was snubbed also :lol:

[the_idle_threat]

:trll:

[The Leaper]

Hawk is comparable to greenway, both play next to good MLB's right and both have similiar stats.

Outside of the fact that Hawk has ten times the durability, I might agree with you.

[The Leaper]

I'm glad we only got 4 guys in...the motivation factor for the rest of the year is going to be extremely high. There won't be any getting fat and happy with this bunch now.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Greenway, 82 tackles,1 forced fumble and 2 pics.
Hawk, 94 tackles, 1 forced fumble, 1 sack and 1 pic. Greenway is right with the great Hawk and he plays next to a stud MLB :lol: Greenway was snubbed! :oops: Lets see here, Ryans you said is worse than Hawk, Sims is worse than Hawk, McIntosh I don't know what you think anbout him, Greenway i'm sure is much worse also even though all of your arguements for Hawk in regards to Sims work in Greenways favor against hawk to make them pretty much the same type of player, am I missing anyone from that class?? maybe Howard from the Raiders who has 84 tackles, 1 sack and 6 pics but I'm sure Hawk is way better than him. I guess I should take the advice of an old man that told me to never debate with a person who avoids the facts :lol: By the way, some think howard was snubbed also :lol:

I love how you base things on stats. Stats are one comparison, but you don't take into account other factors--unless it helps your argument. Your ball washing of Greenway just again proves how little you know. The guy at work who is a Vikings fan just told me yesterday about how disappointed he is in Greenway. He thinks Greenway has been pretty ordinary. Apparently, he's misses a lot of tackles. I trust his opinion more than yours. He watches every game and he has less of an axe to grind. Now, he doesn't think Greenway is a complete hack, but it's pretty normal for a second year player to go through some struggles. This guy thinks Henderson is great. He thinks Barnett is great. And he likes Hawk more than Greenway at this point from the games he's watched. That's from a Vikings fan whose opinion I trust. He also likes Greenway as a person as much as any player on the Vikings roster. He talks about how Greenway seems like a good South Dakota farmboy who comes across great in interviews. Hawk is a damn good player. End of story. No matter how often you belittle him, that story won't change.

[GrnBay007]

Honestly, why do we have to go through this same shit with Hawk and Sims every week?


Give it up already.

Right. Esp. when there are more important things to debate....like the pros and cons of TT!!

:twisted:





kidding :shock: :P

[HarveyWallbangers]

Other points he made to me yesterday:

1) He compared Tarvaris Jackson to Shaun King. He said Jackson is young, so he hasn't given up hope, but he isn't on the bandwagon yet.
2) He didn't think Darren Sharper deserved to make the Pro Bowl. He was iffy on Tony Richardson because he feels like Jim Kleinsasser and Jeff Dugan fill the FB role on the Vikings as much as Richardson.
3) He thinks Steve Hutchinson deserved the Pro Bowl nod. He was iffy on Matt Birk. He thinks he's good, but he doesn't know enough about the other OCs in the NFC.
4) Obviously, he loves Adrian Peterson. He really likes Sidney Rice also.
5) He feels like E.J. Henderson has played at Pro Bowl level.
6) Contrary to what I believed, he likes Kevin Williams more than Pat Williams--despite Kevin's ordinary stats. He just thinks Kevin is a more complete player. I trust him on that.
7) He's still not a believer in Brad Childress yet.

Forgot to add that he thinks Greenway is arm tackling too much and he's been burned in coverage too much. He believes he has the athleticism to be good, but thinks he still needs to get stronger. To be fair (my opinion), he did miss most of last season, so he's behind Hawk in his development.

[packers11]

Honestly, why do we have to go through this same shit with Hawk and Sims every week?

Hawk plays on a much better defense, he has better players around him, he plays a lot more coverage. He needs to improve his blitzing, but he has really turned it on in the 2nd half.

Sims plays on a terrible defense, they give up the most points in the NFL. He hits harder than Hawk, but from what I've seen isn't asked to play much man coverage, and when I have seen it it hasn't been pretty. He has shitty players around him so of course he will shine more.

Our D is more structured than Detroit's. Sims is allowed to be more of a freelancer. If he jumps out of his gap it's not as noticeable because their defense sucks anyways. I think Hawk does a great job of taking care of HIS responsibilities in our scheme. Maybe Sims would thrive in our rigid defense. Maybe Hawk would excel being able to run around more and just play off his pure football instincts. No one knows.

Give it up already.


:bclap:

:glug:

[b bulldog]

Harv no matter how you build Hawk up the simple fact won't change that he is at best the fourth best lb in the class and like I stated earlier, you always bring Barnett to Hawks aid in regards to plays made but I just knew the same wouldn't be in effect for greeenway and I was right. You keep your love for Hawk and just keep telling yourself how great he is. :oops:

[b bulldog]

A friend of mine who is from Minny and recently moved to central WI has told me that this is basicly Chad's rookie season and he would never trade Greenway for Hawk, he thinks Greenway is better and has more upside. I guess my buddy thinks yours is wrong but I'm sure yours is correct just like you always think you are. :oops: Hint, look at the numbers, so very close they are and they play next to stud MLB's. :oops:

[b bulldog]

I have another friend that thinks Sims is the second best LB in the north behind a healthy Urlacher.

[The Leaper]

I have another friend that thinks Sims is the second best LB in the north behind a healthy Urlacher.

I have a friend who thinks Janet Reno is a supermodel.

Are you going to fuck her, bulldog?

Claiming "I have a friend who..." as any kind of quantitative evidence to prove your point simply makes you look like a retard.

But I shouldn't say that, as it would be offensive to retards.

[GBRulz]

I have a theory. I think that a big piece of whether you get into the Pro Bowl this year depends on how you played LAST year...

Good point. Pro Bowlers usually make it a year after when they first should have, and then name recognition keeps them on the team a year or two longer then they should have.

Well, Tony Romo went last year and he didn't even play the year before, so I have to say the theory is flawed!! Which brings me to why I feel Ryan Grant got a big time snub on the PB. Romo made the PB last year and he didn't even start until week 7. Ryan has been the overall leading rusher in the league since what, week 8?

Ryan Grant gets my vote for the biggest snub.

[b bulldog]

actually Leaper, Harv was the first so mine was a mock and nothing more. Harv talks in circles, Hawk doesn't get the numbers cause he plays next to 56 but in greenways case, that excuse doesn't hold up. henderson is also a stud MLB and I'm sure he takes plays away from greenway like 56 must to Hawk??
Good comeback leaper, shows your maturity :lol: Thought you were better than that!

[Rastak]

My takes in bold


Other points he made to me yesterday:

1) He compared Tarvaris Jackson to Shaun King. He said Jackson is young, so he hasn't given up hope, but he isn't on the bandwagon yet.

Not a bad comparrison. He throws harder but man he's green.

2) He didn't think Darren Sharper deserved to make the Pro Bowl. He was iffy on Tony Richardson because he feels like Jim Kleinsasser and Jeff Dugan fill the FB role on the Vikings as much as Richardson.

I agree with him on Sharper, but guys do make it on reputation. Sharper has made some really nice plays this year. Got toasted a few times too. I disagree on Dugan, Richardson is as good as any other full back in the NFC clearly the best the Vikings have.

3) He thinks Steve Hutchinson deserved the Pro Bowl nod. He was iffy on Matt Birk. He thinks he's good, but he doesn't know enough about the other OCs in the NFC.

Yea, agreed with that too. It's hard to watch individual lineman to really judge. Top rated run offense = good line play so I'm not thinking it's a travesty or anything like that.

4) Obviously, he loves Adrian Peterson. He really likes Sidney Rice also.

They both have bright futures.

5) He feels like E.J. Henderson has played at Pro Bowl level.

No question. Ben Leber has been solid as hell too, although not at a pro bowl level I guess.


6) Contrary to what I believed, he likes Kevin Williams more than Pat Williams--despite Kevin's ordinary stats. He just thinks Kevin is a more complete player. I trust him on that.

Kevin is a great athlete. Pat dominates in stretches. I guess I'd like Kevin more because he's younger and much more athletic but Fat Pat is a very good DT.

7) He's still not a believer in Brad Childress yet.

Welcome to the club, friend of Harv.

Forgot to add that he thinks Greenway is arm tackling too much and he's been burned in coverage too much. He believes he has the athleticism to be good, but thinks he still needs to get stronger. To be fair (my opinion), he did miss most of last season, so he's behind Hawk in his development.


I'd give Greenway a "B" for this season. I haven't seen enough of Hawk to really compare. Greenway gets beat in coverage on occasion but he really moves well and makes plays. He probably could get stronger but it's pretty amazing how he rehabbed that knee. He was FULL SPEED in training camp after an ACL tear. Not bad. I happy with him at LB.

[Rastak]

I have another friend that thinks Sims is the second best LB in the north behind a healthy Urlacher.

I have a friend who thinks Janet Reno is a supermodel.

Are you going to fuck her, bulldog?

Claiming "I have a friend who..." as any kind of quantitative evidence to prove your point simply makes you look like a retard.


But I shouldn't say that, as it would be offensive to retards.

You calling Harv a Tard for doing the same thing in this thread?

[HarveyWallbangers]

A friend of mine who is from Minny and recently moved to central WI has told me that this is basicly Chad's rookie season and he would never trade Greenway for Hawk, he thinks Greenway is better and has more upside.

Most fans are homers. My friend isn't.

[Rastak]

A friend of mine who is from Minny and recently moved to central WI has told me that this is basicly Chad's rookie season and he would never trade Greenway for Hawk, he thinks Greenway is better and has more upside.

Most fans are homers. My friend isn't.


Purple Wist?


j/k

:wink:

[mmmdk]

Pro bowl snubbing or not; winning in january & february is all that counts. If Packers go to the SB then the PB voting was wrong.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Purple Wist?

:D

No, he's actually positive. He just calls it as he sees them. I think he's gun-shy with some of the tough times the Vikes have been through. He stays grounded when things are going well, but stays positive when things look bleak. He's not afraid to laugh at his own team either--even though it's obvious it kills him when they do bad.

He's the Vikings version of superfan.
:D

[Rastak]

Purple Wist?

:D

No, he's actually positive. He just calls it as he sees them. I think he's gun-shy with some of the tough times the Vikes have been through. He stays grounded when things are going well, but stays positive when things look bleak. He's not afraid to laugh at his own team either--even though it's obvious it kills him when they do bad.

He's the Vikings version of superfan.
:D


I think I'd get along with him. He sounds like a typical Viking fan, and the way I feel. They ( the Vikes) screw with my mind so much I'm always suspisious yet endlessly hopeful when the season starts before anything bad happens. Even when things turn I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. But to be honest, the Vikings offense really does lack so staying grounded right now is easy as hell.