Westbrook crush

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm sure this subject has been beaten to death already, but I can't find the thread, and am gushing with emotion.

When Westbrook took the knee before the endzone in game against Dallas, I thought it was one of the coolest things I've seen in sports in a long time. It probably increased the odds of the Eagles winning from 99% to 99.5%. I don't care if this is small advantage, it was smart, and it warms my heart when players respect the importance of clock at end of a game.

Westbrook is one of my favorite players in the NFL. The effort he puts out is superhuman, he does everything well, he has the competitive spirit of Walter Payton.

[Bretsky]

I won a fantasy football game because of his dive

[hoosier]

He did what Desmond Clark forgot to do at the end of the Chi-GB game. Apparently he had some coaching from his RT.

[3irty1]

Hard not to love Brian Westbrook. He's one of the very very few RB who are so versatile that he can be an entire offense.

[RashanGary]

It increased their chances of winning from 97% to 100%. After he did that, all they had to do was kneel on it. The game was over. It was John Runyun who told him to do it. He told him in the huddle and then he was screaming for him to get down during the play. It was selfless by westbrook, but it was brilliant for Runyun to think it up. Even the coach looked suprised.

[Badgerinmaine]

Props all around...clever thinking. Where would the Eagles be without Westbrook?

[SkinBasket]

Props all around...clever thinking. Where would the Eagles be without Westbrook?

Same place they are now - not in the play-offs.

[The Leaper]

I loved the play. Any time you can increase your chances of winning, even by a small amount...or decrease you chances of losing...you do it.

[SkinBasket]

I loved the thought behind the play, that a player could still be so selfless in this day of TO and Eli and Moss. I hate the play though.

To me it says, "We know we're the inferior team and instead of playing football and beating you like men, we're going to play keep away for the last two minutes because we're deathly afraid of you."

[oregonpackfan]

I support his actions. Most RBs would love to pad their statistics by scoring another touchdown. As other posters stated, his falling down at the 1 increased his team's chances of winning.

Westbrook has always had my respect as a complete running back. He would look good in the green and gold.

[Charles Woodson]

Brian westbrook F***ed me big time... I lost my fantasy playoff game to B because he went down...lost by 2 friken pointsss

[The Leaper]

To me it says, "We know we're the inferior team and instead of playing football and beating you like men, we're going to play keep away for the last two minutes because we're deathly afraid of you."

Is there a rule that says you have to give the other team a chance to win when you don't have to? I must have missed that. Is throwing the ball out of bounds rather than take a sack or risk an INT also cowardice?

The inferior team on Sunday was the one with 6 points on the scoreboard Skin. If the Cowboys were the better team, they could've prevented Westbrook from getting a first down and gotten that ball back in a conventional manner.

[Carolina_Packer]

I don't think it was gutless, it was smart. In the old days of college basketball before the shot clock we have now, there used to be stalls when a team got up. Phil Ford of North Carolina was great at running what was called the 4 corners to help run out the clock. That to me was more gutless, but since the shot clock didn't exist, it was a strategy that worked. Why not use what is at your disposal. You often hear the statement, "time is the team's biggest enemy right now" during a game where a team has a lead. Kudos to Runyan and Westbrook for realizing how to salt the game away, since it's ultimately about winning.

[Rastak]

I loved the thought behind the play, that a player could still be so selfless in this day of TO and Eli and Moss. I hate the play though.

To me it says, "We know we're the inferior team and instead of playing football and beating you like men, we're going to play keep away for the last two minutes because we're deathly afraid of you."


Huh? So every kneel down is wrong also? Of course you run down the clock when you can. You DON'T run a pick back when the team has no timeouts.

I'm definately missing the point here Skin......

[MadtownPacker]

I loved the thought behind the play, that a player could still be so selfless in this day of TO and Eli and Moss. I hate the play though.

To me it says, "We know we're the inferior team and instead of playing football and beating you like men, we're going to play keep away for the last two minutes because we're deathly afraid of you."


Huh? So every kneel down is wrong also? Of course you run down the clock when you can. You DON'T run a pick back when the team has no timeouts.

I'm definately missing the point here Skin......Can you say darren "all about me" sharper at the end of the MNF game?

But I agree, Skin is a total moron regarding this because the object is to WIN THE DAMN GAME. By doing what he did westbrook made it GAME OVER with that play. I bet more players will follow in his example.

[gbgary]

i was stunned when he did it. it had a small amount of risk but it worked out fine. dallas was toast either way. :D

[RashanGary]

it had a small amount of risk but it worked out fine.

There was no risk at all. As soon as he went down, the game was over because all they had to do was kneel on it. It was the best possible move if the goal was to win the game (which I believe it was).

[BallHawk]

it had a small amount of risk but it worked out fine.

There was no risk at all. As soon as he went down, the game was over because all they had to do was kneel on it. It was the best possible move if the goal was to win the game (which I believe it was).

There is always a risk that McNabb could fumble the snap and the 'Boys could somehow score a TD. However, that risk is no greater, probably smaller, than the Cowboys scoring a TD, recovering an onside kick, and then scoring again.

Bottomline, it was a great play. I remember a player did it in a college game last year. I believe it was either in the WAC or the Pac 10.

[Jimx29]

Doing that showed class. He showed his coaches that he can be trusted to listen to what they say to do, not what he would of wanted to do.
In this season full of the pilling on shit from bellacheat, it was one of the most refreshing plays i've seen in many a year.

[SD GB fan]

oops

[SD GB fan]

I loved the thought behind the play, that a player could still be so selfless in this day of TO and Eli and Moss. I hate the play though.

To me it says, "We know we're the inferior team and instead of playing football and beating you like men, we're going to play keep away for the last two minutes because we're deathly afraid of you."

or it means "we are going to win and you cant do anything about it, cowfags" to me, eagles already played football like men for 58 min and proved that they were the better team that day.

[gbgary]

it had a small amount of risk but it worked out fine.

There was no risk at all. As soon as he went down, the game was over because all they had to do was kneel on it. It was the best possible move if the goal was to win the game (which I believe it was).

There is always a risk that McNabb could fumble the snap...

exactly! the top high-school championships here in texas was decided on a fumbled kneel-down. the mighty southlake carroll dragons, #2 h.s. team in the nation, i believe, lost it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=w8nYTB2QAq0&feature=related

they were going to kneel down and let the clock run to 2 seconds and kick the game winning field goal.

[MJZiggy]

I think he should have sat down there, knelt 3 times and then ran a qb sneak on the last play when they least expected it. Would've been more fun and even if they'd fumbled it, they were up by more than a score so it would have been too late to watch Romo do much more to embarrass himself anyway.

[FritzDontBlitz]

I loved the thought behind the play, that a player could still be so selfless in this day of TO and Eli and Moss. I hate the play though.

To me it says, "We know we're the inferior team and instead of playing football and beating you like men, we're going to play keep away for the last two minutes because we're deathly afraid of you."


Huh? So every kneel down is wrong also? Of course you run down the clock when you can. You DON'T run a pick back when the team has no timeouts.

I'm definately missing the point here Skin......

I think people who feel Westbrook made the wrong move are probably the same people who yell "coward!" whenever a head coach tells his kicker not to kick to Devin Hester.

[Merlin]

It increased their chances of winning from 97% to 100%. After he did that, all they had to do was kneel on it. The game was over. It was John Runyun who told him to do it. He told him in the huddle and then he was screaming for him to get down during the play. It was selfless by westbrook, but it was brilliant for Runyun to think it up. Even the coach looked suprised.

Every snap in the NFL is guaranteed to not be fumbled right? Like everything else in football, nothing is 100% guaranteed.

[The Leaper]

There is always a risk that McNabb could fumble the snap and the 'Boys could somehow score a TD.

A. The chances of an NFL QB fumbling the snap are rather remote...especially if you factor in that weather was not a problem and that it wasn't a QB replacement scenario.

B. The chances of any fumble actually being returned for a TD is exponentially that much smaller.

C. The Cowboys have ALREADY WON A GAME THIS YEAR precisely the way they would have needed to tie Philly had Westbrook scored...score a TD in under 2:00, recover an onside kick, kick a FG. Perhaps you missed their comeback against Buffalo???

The bottom line is that Westbrook's decision was 100% correct...anyone arguing otherwise has no logical basis to build on. Claiming you shouldn't do it because you might fumble the snap is ridiculous.

By taking a knee, Westbrook essentially ensured his team a 99.9% chance of victory. If he had scored, the chance would have been less...although admittedly not significantly so...maybe just 99.5%.

[SkinBasket]

The inferior team on Sunday was the one with 6 points on the scoreboard Skin. If the Cowboys were the better team, they could've prevented Westbrook from getting a first down and gotten that ball back in a conventional manner.


That's kinda the fucking point. The Eagles were the superior team. Problem is, sitting down at the one to run out the clock instead of going up two scores and playing the rest of the game demonstrates that they didn't feel they were the superior team. It shows they were afraid of Dallas and didn't have the confidence in their own team that they could stop the Cowboys from scoring 11 points in under two minutes with no timeouts.

[The Leaper]

It shows they were afraid of Dallas and didn't have the confidence in their own team that they could stop the Cowboys from scoring 11 points in under two minutes with no timeouts.

No.

It shows that Philly had the ability to prevent Dallas from ever touching the ball again...because they COULD.

So who is truly the bitch?

[SkinBasket]

Huh? So every kneel down is wrong also? Of course you run down the clock when you can. You DON'T run a pick back when the team has no timeouts.

I'm definately missing the point here Skin......

You are missing the point, actually. It's not about running out the clock with kneel downs (which by the way are also pussy), it about playing like the superior team that they were that night, not like a team that felt they had somehow escaped with a win.

I just think it was a pussy move that showed little or no confidence in their team and only improved their chances of winning by an infinitesimal margin.

[SkinBasket]

So who is truly the bitch?

The Eagles.

If they had any confidence in their team, they would have scored the points.

[The Leaper]

If they had any confidence in their team, they would have scored the points.

So then every team who takes a knee and doesn't try to put more points on the board has no confidence in their team?

[SkinBasket]

If they had any confidence in their team, they would have scored the points.

So then every team who takes a knee and doesn't try to put more points on the board has no confidence in their team?

Trying to extrapolate this into a larger, more generic argument fails unless "every team" in your question also has their running back sit down at the 1 with under two minutes, were up by 4, and the opposing team had no timeouts.

Again, this isn't about the "taking the knee." This is about taking an extreme measure because your team feels it's too incompetent to stop the opponent from scoring 11 points in under two minutes after holding them to 6 for the previous 58 minutes.

[Lurker64]

Again, this isn't about the "taking the knee." This is about taking an extreme measure because your team feels it's too incompetent to stop the opponent from scoring 11 points in under two minutes after holding them to 6 for the previous 58 minutes.

I think this is 100% wrong. Compare if you will:

1) The probability of turning the ball over while kneeling in the victory formation, then allowing the other team to go 99 yards and score a TD in under 2 minutes.

versus

2) The probability of giving up a quick score, an onside kick, and another score.

Moreover consider the probability of injury in each situation and also that the outcome of both scoring and kneeling are, most probably, exactly the same.

Nobody ever fumbles in the victory formation when the QB is kneeling, that's what it's for; the center's only job is to not botch the handoff.. A team should always take the quickest path to victory, particularly when that's also the path of the least resistance. It's not an issue of "having no confidence" it's just that one tactic wins the game with almost 100% certainty, but the other tactic results in a smaller chance of victory and two more minutes of running around while only serving the purpose of padding your stats.

I applaud Westbrook for what he did. I've always hated it when players didn't do the same thing in similar situations. A lot of time a fresh set of downs is more valuable than a score, and it shows football smarts that Westbrook realized that this was one of these cases. I firmly believe that in every situation a football player should take whichever (legal) action that will maximize the probability of his team winning the game.

[Rastak]

Huh? So every kneel down is wrong also? Of course you run down the clock when you can. You DON'T run a pick back when the team has no timeouts.

I'm definately missing the point here Skin......

You are missing the point, actually. It's not about running out the clock with kneel downs (which by the way are also pussy), it about playing like the superior team that they were that night, not like a team that felt they had somehow escaped with a win.

I just think it was a pussy move that showed little or no confidence in their team and only improved their chances of winning by an infinitesimal margin.



We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't even remotely think that. It was the absolute right thing to do and they did it. I still say it's no difference than when a team let's another team score to allow some time on the clock only in reverse. You are in effect saying....."sorry a-holes, you lose". Teams take a safety to get the free kick when it makes sense. It's playing smart, nothing to do with being "a pussy". Just my humble opinion.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I don't think it was gutless, it was smart. In the old days of college basketball before the shot clock we have now, there used to be stalls when a team got up. Phil Ford of North Carolina was great at running what was called the 4 corners to help run out the clock. That to me was more gutless, but since the shot clock didn't exist, it was a strategy that worked. Why not use what is at your disposal. You often hear the statement, "time is the team's biggest enemy right now" during a game where a team has a lead. Kudos to Runyan and Westbrook for realizing how to salt the game away, since it's ultimately about winning.

Didn't work against a certain small jesuit university for the NCAA championship.

[cpk1994]

I loved the thought behind the play, that a player could still be so selfless in this day of TO and Eli and Moss. I hate the play though.

To me it says, "We know we're the inferior team and instead of playing football and beating you like men, we're going to play keep away for the last two minutes because we're deathly afraid of you."


Huh? So every kneel down is wrong also? Of course you run down the clock when you can. You DON'T run a pick back when the team has no timeouts.

I'm definately missing the point here Skin......

Unless your name is Darren Sharper.

[The Leaper]

Again, this isn't about the "taking the knee." This is about taking an extreme measure because your team feels it's too incompetent to stop the opponent from scoring 11 points in under two minutes after holding them to 6 for the previous 58 minutes.

Did you not see this EXACT SCENARIO occur in the Buffalo game, Skin? Dallas scored a TD in under 2 minutes, recovered an onside kick, and kicked a FG. So, if Philly scores, Dallas has already proven once this season that they were capable of doing PRECISELY what needed to be done to get back in the game.

There is no reason...NONE...to score when the other team has no time outs remaining and you can run the clock down to zero without picking up another first down.

[RashanGary]

If we have the oppurtinity in the playoffs to end it with a knee by passing up an extra TD, I would hope we take it. Winning the game is the most important thing and what the Eagles did assured them a W.

Great move (if you think winning is the only goal, not being a hard ass)

[SkinBasket]

Did you not see this EXACT SCENARIO occur in the Buffalo game, Skin? Dallas scored a TD in under 2 minutes, recovered an onside kick, and kicked a FG. So, if Philly scores, Dallas has already proven once this season that they were capable of doing PRECISELY what needed to be done to get back in the game.

Lending credence to my suggestion that Westbrook did this because Philly was afraid of the Cowboys and sat down at the 1 because he didn't have confidence in his team to prevent these unlikely events from happening.

[Partial]

Skinbasket you sound like Merlin. Fuck man. Don't be a jackass. I don't think they were afraid seeing as they attacked the SHIT out of the Cowboys all game long and clearly were the better team that day. Why risk it? This is really a non-issue. Game over, they won, and they outplayed the Cowboys and exposed some vulnerabilities.

[Tarlam!]

Skin,

you're my "Homie", to borrow from Mad's vocab. But I don't see it as a cowardice act. They pretty much won the game 2 minutes earlier. What's wrong with that?

Defense didn't need to risk an injury. ST's good take the rest of the night off.

This wasn't done out of fear, IMHO. This was done out of smarts.

Translate this scenario into a boxing ring. If I can beat you with a knockout in round 11 and I choose not to throw the punch, because I am ahead on points, I am risking a broken jaw or rib when I don't have to. Why would I do that? Even though I stand to win by decision, I still wanna end it early.

My analogy is not football, but I think I explained it so as you get my drift.

[Harlan Huckleby]

stupid is strength. smart is weak. day becomes the night, night becomes the day. Break on through to the other side!

[The Leaper]

Lending credence to my suggestion that Westbrook did this because Philly was afraid of the Cowboys and sat down at the 1 because he didn't have confidence in his team to prevent these unlikely events from happening.

Again...so any team that takes a knee to run down clock rather than attempting to score is cowardly. That is the only way to correctly move your position forward. If Philly was cowardly for doing the smart thing and essentially ending the game, then ANYONE is cowardly for doing the smart thing. You can't pick and choose what is cowardly.

[SkinBasket]

Again...so any team that takes a knee to run down clock rather than attempting to score is cowardly. That is the only way to correctly move your position forward. If Philly was cowardly for doing the smart thing and essentially ending the game, then ANYONE is cowardly for doing the smart thing. You can't pick and choose what is cowardly.

And again... you keep pressing the "taking the knee." My problem was with sitting at the 1, not the pussy ass kneeling that followed. Playing smart, like taking knees to end the game, is boring. Playing scared, like laying down at the 1, is cowardly.

[SkinBasket]

Skinbasket you sound like Merlin...

And you sound like my butt when I fart. What's that got to do with the Eagles?

[RashanGary]

Mike McCarthy said it was coached. He had some name for it, but it's common sense to run out the clock. He said players are coached to go down after a 1st down to run out the clock. The only thing strange about Westbrook was that he made it to the 1. Other than that, it was just going down after a 1st and is a part of winning football.

[The Leaper]

Playing smart, like taking knees to end the game, is boring. Playing scared, like laying down at the 1, is cowardly.

But he laid down at the one so that their team could play smart...by your own admission. You said taking a knee to end the game is smart...and that is precisely what Philly could do when Westbrook did not score.

[SkinBasket]

Playing smart, like taking knees to end the game, is boring. Playing scared, like laying down at the 1, is cowardly.

But he laid down at the one so that their team could play smart...by your own admission. You said taking a knee to end the game is smart...and that is precisely what Philly could do when Westbrook did not score.

Yeah... after they played scared, also by my own admission, by laying down at the 1. And if this was a "coached move," Andy Ried certainly didn't look like he was in on it when they showed his reaction.

[Rastak]

Playing smart, like taking knees to end the game, is boring. Playing scared, like laying down at the 1, is cowardly.

But he laid down at the one so that their team could play smart...by your own admission. You said taking a knee to end the game is smart...and that is precisely what Philly could do when Westbrook did not score.

Yeah... after they played scared, also by my own admission, by laying down at the 1. And if this was a "coached move," Andy Ried certainly didn't look like he was in on it when they showed his reaction.


Is kicking away from Devin Hester playing scared? Just curious where the line gets drawn. I think it is in a way, but again, this isn't some manliness contest, it's a game these guys are trying to win.

[SkinBasket]

Is kicking away from Devin Hester playing scared? Just curious where the line gets drawn. I think it is in a way, but again, this isn't some manliness contest, it's a game these guys are trying to win.

Yes. He's good at what he does. But if you're going to beat the Bears, you should be better. That and all the fucking around teams do to avoid him ends up giving them better field position anyway.

[Rastak]

Is kicking away from Devin Hester playing scared? Just curious where the line gets drawn. I think it is in a way, but again, this isn't some manliness contest, it's a game these guys are trying to win.

Yes. He's good at what he does. But if you're going to beat the Bears, you should be better. That and all the fucking around teams do to avoid him ends up giving them better field position anyway.


Yea, the Vikings on kickoffs gave the Bears the ball damn near midfield most of the time. So I do agree.....I will also say that he didn't score and they won by 7.....so maybe it is smart.

I could never say for sure. Tough question.