Age versus maturity, Carroll vs Hawk

[Patler]

In discussing age versus maturity and how the two do not necessarily coincide, someone drew the comparison of AJ Hawk vs Ahmad Carroll. So, how much older do you think Carroll is? He has two NFL seasons in already, so what is the age difference? Five months! Carroll was born August 4, 1983. Hawk was born Jan. 6, 1984.

That is why I have preached patience with Carroll. He is very young, even yet.

[Bretsky]

In discussing age versus maturity and how the two do not necessarily coincide, someone drew the comparison of AJ Hawk vs Ahmad Carroll. So, how much older do you think Carroll is? He has two NFL seasons in already, so what is the age difference? Five months! Carroll was born August 4, 1983. Hawk was born Jan. 6, 1984.

That is why I have preached patience with Carroll. He is very young, even yet.


I've ripped Carrol's immaturity before. But he can grow up. But can his football instincts grow up ? He covers pretty well actually.

But he doesn't see, judge, or play the ball well at all. Some are very natural at that. Mike McKenzie comes to mind. Some are just plain old terrible at that. Ahmad Carroll comes to mind.

That is what has to improve for Carroll to be worthy of his first round selection.

[GrnBay007]

But he doesn't see, judge, or play the ball well at all. Some are very natural at that. Mike McKenzie comes to mind. Some are just plain old terrible at that. Ahmad Carroll comes to mind.

That is what has to improve for Carroll to be worthy of his first round selection.

Mac is 30 I think. Wonder how he was playing when he was Carroll's age?

[Patler]

I wasn't debating his skills, natural or developed, just how he acts. Most will agree that he does act immature at times, and I wanted to point out how young he really is.

After looking into it even more, Carroll is actually younger than 8 of the Packer draft picks this year. Carroll was born 8/4/83, some in this years Packer rookie class:

Tollefson 5/19/81
Colledge 2/11/82
Martin 8/15/82
Hodge 9/9/82
Spitz 12/9/82
Rodgers 2/2/83
Jolly 2/21/83
Culver 7/6/83

Ahmad Carroll 8/4/83

[Bretsky]

But he doesn't see, judge, or play the ball well at all. Some are very natural at that. Mike McKenzie comes to mind. Some are just plain old terrible at that. Ahmad Carroll comes to mind.

That is what has to improve for Carroll to be worthy of his first round selection.

Mac is 30 I think. Wonder how he was playing when he was Carroll's age?


Honestly Mike McKenzie came in here from day 1 as a rookie and showed the natural ball skills. He was a third round draft pick in a year when the Packers also drafted two other CB's (Antoine Edwards and Fred Vinson) in rounds one and two. Edwards and Vinson never made it and MM played well from day one.

There are a lot of players who come in with the instincs/skills to play the ball. MM just stuck out as a Packer who did that well from day 1 where Carroll has not.

B

[Bretsky]

I wasn't debating his skills, natural or developed, just how he acts. Most will agree that he does act immature at times, and I wanted to point out how young he really is.

After looking into it even more, Carroll is actually younger than 8 of the Packer draft picks this year. Carroll was born 8/4/83, some in this years Packer rookie class:

Tollefson 5/19/81
Colledge 2/11/82
Martin 8/15/82
Hodge 9/9/82
Spitz 12/9/82
Rodgers 2/2/83
Jolly 2/21/83
Culver 7/6/83

Ahmad Carroll 8/4/83


Your point is well taken regarding the youth; but Mike Sherman and Green Bay needed somebody to play short term with that pick.

In retrospect, with Green Bay still considered a legitimate playoff threat at the time Carroll was selected in round one...........his youth and where the Packers were at adds even more to the argument that Green Bay should have selected Chris Gamble.........who is nothing spectacular but still a step above Carroll IMO.

[Patler]

Bretsky sometimes you sure are a broken record! I guess its my fault for even starting a topic concerning Ahmad carroll!

I really have no interest in rehashing yet again the Chambers vs. Ferguson and Gamble vs. Carroll debates. What is done is done. It is extremely easy to go back in any draft and point out better selections. DO you buy or sell stocks? If you do, I bet you agonize over buying a day too late or selling a day to early!

(BTW, I'm not that sold on Gamble. :smile: )

[Patler]

Honestly Mike McKenzie came in here from day 1 as a rookie and showed the natural ball skills. He was a third round draft pick in a year when the Packers also drafted two other CB's (Antoine Edwards and Fred Vinson) in rounds one and two. Edwards and Vinson never made it and MM played well from day one.

There are a lot of players who come in with the instincs/skills to play the ball. MM just stuck out as a Packer who did that well from day 1 where Carroll has not.
B

But that isn't surprising with Carroll. His lack of natural ball skills was known in college. Not all cornerbacks have the natural ability to adjust and catch.

Wolf insisted even after he was traded that Fred Vinson would have been the best of the three cornerbacks drafted that year, if he hadn't gotten injured. Wolf said the Green for Vinson trade had the potential to make either team look bad, because both had the potential to become great players.

[SD GB fan]

while wat everyone says about carroll is true, he is still a great athlete. if he continues to improve like he did last season, he will be good on this packers team. but i think hes gonna be a hell of a nickelback this year

[MadtownPacker]

Carroll is gonna take over the #2 at some point this season! :shock:

Yeah that's right quote me Bretsky, print it, laminate it and then keep it until January! Then you can look at it and mutter to yourself "I'm sorry I ever doubted you Ahmad. The Rock, 007, and Mad where right".

Feeling it may be him and Woodson.

[Patler]

Carroll is gonna take over the #2 at some point this season! :shock:

Yeah that's right quote me Bretsky, print it, laminate it and then keep it until January! Then you can look at it and mutter to yourself "I'm sorry I ever doubted you Ahmad. The Rock, 007, and Mad where right".

Feeling it may be him and Woodson.

I kind of feel that way too. I left the 2005 season with a feeling of concern over Harris. Something happened to him the last 4 or 5 games. He started to look like an old player. I didn't hear about any injury. I sure hope it was just the effects of a LONG season in 2005.

[Tarlam!]

I left the 2005 season with a feeling of concern over Harris. Something happened to him the last 4 or 5 games. He started to look like an old player.


I don't like reading this at all. I hope the addition of Woodson revitalizes Harris.

Maybe Harris was just seeing the season out without wanting to risk injury. 4 games out, everyone knew we were in the midst of a losing season...

[Fritz]

What's nice is that the team seems to have some options at CB. So if Al Harris has suddenly aged, or Woodson proves to be slow, you've got Carroll (if he can keep his hands off receivers) and even the almost-forgotten Mike Hawkins as possibilities. It ain't Willie Davis and company, but it's better than Patrick Dendry.

[MJZiggy]

My bad. Was gonna use JWalk but was sick of talking about him.

[swede]

Wolf insisted even after he was traded that Fred Vinson would have been the best of the three cornerbacks drafted that year, if he hadn't gotten injured. Wolf said the Green for Vinson trade had the potential to make either team look bad, because both had the potential to become great players.

And the check is in the mail and I promise to respect you in the morning.

I think that Darth Wolf was protecting the feelings of Mike Skywalker on that one.

Ahman Green had had at least one 100 yard game with Seattle, and, other than the fumbling, had looked darn good. I don't recall Vinson ever showing much other than a propensity for injury. ( In my fantasy league I picked Green up after a 100 yd. game he'd had with Seattle in a desperate attempt to replace one of my two injured RB's. After a hot start in the very next game he got benched for fumbling, so after the season Holmgren taught him a lesson for all of his fumbling problems by packing him off to Green Bay. And I ended up in my usual Fantasy Football perch in the cellar.)
:wink:

[chain_gang]

Your point is well taken regarding the youth; but Mike Sherman and Green Bay needed somebody to play short term with that pick.

In retrospect, with Green Bay still considered a legitimate playoff threat at the time Carroll was selected in round one...........his youth and where the Packers were at adds even more to the argument that Green Bay should have selected Chris Gamble.........who is nothing spectacular but still a step above Carroll IMO.


I don't feel Gamble is a step above Carroll at all. Carroll entered a terrible situation in Green Bay Defense. Coming out of college a year early and trying to learn a very complexing scheme that Slow-twit was trying to install. Ability wise I remember hearing before and after that draft that carroll would have been a top 10-15 pick in next years draft if he would've stayed in school. Gamble is at his high point right now. However, being somewhat of a panther fan(Pack always number 1 though), I can tell you that most of Gamble's INT stats are because of overthrows or terrible passes. Not to mention the he is thrown at a lot. Not that carroll isn't but Gamble gets burnt against quicker receivers and needs to play in a zone type of defense. If you see Gamble in man to man much, that's when he gives up big plays. Yes even more than Carroll did. Even though Carroll didn't give up as many. Last year he was greatly improved. Imagine what another year in the same system will do. Carroll is going to be a great nickel back this year and learn some valuable tips from two good corners. Carroll's upside is still a lot higher than gamble's ever will be, because of atheltism.

I believe Carroll is still a way better pick than Gamble. Put Gamble in Slow-twit's scheme and see how he does, and then see how well he does change the defensive scheme the following year.

[The Leaper]

I agree that Gamble hasn't shown me much of anything that would make me think he is a better player than Carroll. His stats are better, but he plays on a team with a far stronger front 7...so he has many more chances to make plays on poorly or hastily thrown balls.

Carroll has the tools to become a solid starter in the NFL...he just needs to mature and work at his technique. I think Woodson is going to help Carroll a lot.

[Noodle]

I agree with Shamler and Mad, and have said it before, so I think they are simply poaching me -- Al Harris is on the decline and will be replaced by Carroll by mid-season.

When it goes, it goes quick, and anyone who watched last year knows that it has started to go quick for Al Harris. In fact, he may have begun slipping before mid-season, but teams were so intent on schooling Carroll that Harris didn't get tested much. When Carroll picked up his game at the end of last year and teams had to go at Harris, he couldn't keep up.

But that's why the Woodson pickup was good (if he stays healthy). Woodson will be a terrific example for Carroll and will help elevate his game. And we'll be in solid shape with one of the better DB tandems in the league, with minimal fall-off in nickle and dime packages.

[chain_gang]

Good point Leaper, hell green bays whole secondary would have been better with a good front seven. I think this year they should be. A lot of people blame the secondary for so much. Well how many defenses are successful when you allow the QB 5-8 secs to throw the ball. Hopefully this year it changes.

[Pack0514]

Personally, I am hoping that Will Blackmon develops into a good corner. I was jacked when we drafted him. I wanted GB to take him with our second pick in the 3rd round..... it turns out we got him with our second pick inthe 4th round. Good job TT. Everything I read about the guy before the draft said he was quick and had good ball skills.

[The Leaper]

I agree that Harris looked old at the end of last year...Harris is going to be someone to watch closely in preseason. He could quickly become a pedestrian DB due to his well below average speed.

[Scott Campbell]

I'll believe it when I see it. He's a physical corner who never relied on his speed anyway.

[MadtownPacker]

Carroll backers who Bretsky will have to bow down to when Carroll becomes one of the starting CBs:

shamrockfan
GrnBay007
SD GB fan
MadtownPacker
chain_gang
The Leaper
Noodle

Anyone else want in?

[MadtownPacker]

I agree with Shamler and Mad, and have said it before, so I think they are simply poaching me -- Al Harris is on the decline and will be replaced by Carroll by mid-season.
Poaching? Did you recently fall out of a coconut tree? :razz:

I have been down with AC since his rookie year! He is blazing fast and is never dusted. Just makes bad decisions but that started changing last season.

[Noodle]

I agree with Shamler and Mad, and have said it before, so I think they are simply poaching me -- Al Harris is on the decline and will be replaced by Carroll by mid-season.
Poaching? Did you recently fall out of a coconut tree? :razz:

I have been down with AC since his rookie year! He is blazing fast and is never dusted. Just makes bad decisions but that started changing last season.

Sure did mate, and it was a bitch! Damn coconuts don't give much of a buzz, either, so the whole soddin' thing was a complete waste of bloody time.

Just jackin' around about the poaching. There've been some long-time AC defenders, though he makes it tough at times. But he's coming on just as Harris is declining a little, so I'm thinking he'll get his chance to shine if he just keeps his focus.

And stays out of friggin' coconut trees.

[MadtownPacker]

I think maybe I should use the TexasPackerBacker method and declare every Packer a future HOFer then I can say "I told you so"! :mrgreen:

[Noodle]

Yeah, that's the Tex method, until the guy leaves for another team, and then he assures you that the guy was always a sack-suckin' piece of crap, and a child molesting, left-wing commie, at that. so it was a brilliant front office move to ship the SOB out of town.

That said, I always got a kick out of Tex's sunny view of the Pack and of his violent attacks on anyone who tried to rain on his parade.

[MadtownPacker]

Yeah, that's the Tex method, until the guy leaves for another team, and then he assures you that the guy was always a sack-suckin' piece of crap, and a child molesting, left-wing commie, at that. so it was a brilliant front office move to ship the SOB out of town.

That said, I always got a kick out of Tex's sunny view of the Pack and of his violent attacks on anyone who tried to rain on his parade.
Agreed. I wish we could lure him and the other FYI inmates over here.

[Tarlam!]

Agreed. I wish we could lure him and the other FYI inmates over here.

Well, St. Lou never passes up a chance to piss on PR. I was over there yesterday snooping around to see what's up and I saw another swipe by SL.

He and Tex must be the oldest vets posting and it seems to give St Lou a thrill being the elder statesman...

[MadtownPacker]

Well, St. Lou never passes up a chance to piss on PR. I was over there yesterday snooping around to see what's up and I saw another swipe by SL.

He and Tex must be the oldest vets posting and it seems to give St Lou a thrill being the elder statesman...St Lou is a lil bitch but he is welcome too. What can you expect from a guy who looks like he has one of these on permanently:

http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/pics/noseglassesofenlightenment/NoseGlasses.jpg

BTW - St Lou, I know you read here. Trust me, I know. Why dont you just make a username so you can stick up for your punkass self?

[BooHoo]

Carroll might finish the year as the #4 cornerback. Although, he did seem to play better the second half of last year.

[chain_gang]

I just can't see carroll finishing as a number 4 CB. If he did wind up number 4 on the depth chart he would probably be cut. I just don't see how with his experience he could be a number 4. The great thing is if he starts out as 3rd on the depth chart, that's starting caliber in a nickel D. Credit TT for that. Carroll without a doubt has ability and learning from woodson and harris will help him learn the game better, I keep thinking back to that one pick against Cincy I believe, where he was running one way and then when the ball was in the air made a better break on the ball than the receiver did. It was beautiful too watch. I have a feeling next year he'll be our Number 1 CB.

[Bretsky]

Carroll backers who Bretsky will have to bow down to when Carroll becomes one of the starting CBs:

shamrockfan
GrnBay007
SD GB fan
MadtownPacker
chain_gang
The Leaper
Noodle

Anyone else want in?

HE'LL BE THE STARTING CB WHEN ONE OF THE STARTERS GET INJURED.

[RashanGary]

If Hawkins works hard, he could become the guy. From what I understand, he has good ball skills which seems to be an unteachable trait. He's also longer and faster than Carroll so that doesn't hurt either.

We'll see. Carroll, Hawkins, Blackmon...You know were going to get at least one out of those 3.

[MadtownPacker]

HE'LL BE THE STARTING CB WHEN ONE OF THE STARTERS GET INJURED.
Nah hell NO!!! I meant his is gonna take the job. Bank on it!

[chain_gang]

I don't see Green Bay keeping Woodson for more than 2-3 years, which I believe is how the contract kind of starts out. I also don't see Harris being here after this year, maybe the year after for sure. I think TT set this all up hoping that this would light a fire under Carroll ass and give him an opportunity to learn from another good veteran CB. Whether or not he follows through remains to be seen, but he has the talent for sure nobody can agrue that, and when he comes around on the mental part of it, which I think he started doing at the end of last year, he's going to be a very good CB for a long time. As for Hawkins and Blackmon, I believe at first Hawkins will be given an opportunity for the starting job once both the vets are gone, if his body can hold up, as someone said before, he'll turn into at a the very least reliable number 2 CB if not overtaking Carroll for the Number 1 a 3-4 years down the road. I know these are pretty lofty expectations, but I just have a feeling that this is how TT looked at it during the offseason. It's pretty much the same setup that the Eagles use for DB's. Get the youngs ones a couple years before you release the Vets. A corner's confidence is the most important piece to the puzzle, and both Hawkins and Carroll are going to build it by having the game experience and now learning behind two solid vets.


But the most important thing is to be able to generate a pash rush from the Dline, and right now that's the part that concerns me the most.

[Bretsky]

Agreed. I wish we could lure him and the other FYI inmates over here.

Well, St. Lou never passes up a chance to piss on PR. I was over there yesterday snooping around to see what's up and I saw another swipe by SL.

He and Tex must be the oldest vets posting and it seems to give St Lou a thrill being the elder statesman...

Last I saw St L gave this site a nice compliment; Tex bashed us though. But he's a JS homer and considers it to be equivalent to Green Bay.....so if you are there you are great.

[Tarlam!]

...Last I saw St L gave this site a nice compliment; Tex bashed us though. But he's a JS homer and considers it to be equivalent to Green Bay.....so if you are there you are great.

I must have missed St: Lou's compliment. I saw where he quipped that PR didn't last very long, cause some of our posters still post on JSO.

Tex on the other hand knows most people on here aren't as fervently blind fans and as such, we commit blasphemy if we suggest anything less than a 16-0 season. Tex really believed we needed NO new talent via FA or draft this year.

[Bretsky]

...Last I saw St L gave this site a nice compliment; Tex bashed us though. But he's a JS homer and considers it to be equivalent to Green Bay.....so if you are there you are great.

I must have missed St: Lou's compliment. I saw where he quipped that PR didn't last very long, cause some of our posters still post on JSO.

Tex on the other hand knows most people on here aren't as fervently blind fans and as such, we commit blasphemy if we suggest anything less than a 16-0 season. Tex really believed we needed NO new talent via FA or draft this year.

St Louis said he can see why many went to Packerrats cause it's a nice site.
Patler ...aka...Shamrock.....maybe....ranted a bit about all the bad bitter postings and mentioned how the JS site was stocked with knowledgeable and good posters that left partly because of that......and Tex disagreed and threw in some Tex cuts at us.

[Tarlam!]

Sounds like Tex. He wasn't happy when we were there, he aint happy now we're gone. Well, fuck Tex.

[Patler]

Carroll backers who Bretsky will have to bow down to when Carroll becomes one of the starting CBs:

shamrockfan
GrnBay007
SD GB fan
MadtownPacker
chain_gang
The Leaper
Noodle

Anyone else want in?

Well, you can count me OUT. I am neither a Carrol backer nor detractor. I believe he has the talent and physical ability to be a decent corner, and I think he has made some good strides toward doing that. I think he played "OK" at the end of the season, cut his penalties way, way down and was relying on his natural speed. BUT, he isn't there yet, and could top out at nothing more than an OK starter, its entirely up to his mind set.

My position? It is too early to annoint him as a Packer for the next 10 years and also too early to give up on him. This year, his third year, is crucial to evaluating him. We will know what he is by the end of this season. Either he will continue the improvement we saw at the end of last year, or he will not. If he does, he stays; if he does not he won't be a Packer for a lot longer.

[Tarlam!]

Carroll is a bust at GB. He would be well served if traded, so he can start a-fresh. Coupla things:

1. I like him as a player and think he's got what it takes.
2. His immaturity and arrogance are ´his legacy in GB.

He needs a new team to really flourish. It's not in him to start new here. If TT's advisers are smart, they'll be working a deal even as I type this. Carroll will be a great CB if traded. With us, his history will keep him down.