2008 Financial Thread

[Tyrone Bigguns]

All Ty wants to know is how we can spin this as Obama's fault.

[texaspackerbacker]

I say again, what's the big deal?

For Obama to be "to blame" there would have to be a significant problem.

Did Bear Stearns affect anybody here? Did Lehman Brothers? Would AIG? I doubt it.

The only relevancy of "blaming Obama" is the fact that he and his people are demagoguing economic issues which are:

A. Not that bad

B. Rooted in 9/11

C. Mitigated by tax cuts hated by Obama and the left

D. Potentially made MUCH worse by the tax increasing that Obama thinks is a "solution".

[Freak Out]

I say again, what's the big deal?

For Obama to be "to blame" there would have to be a significant problem.

Did Bear Stearns affect anybody here? Did Lehman Brothers? Would AIG? I doubt it.

The only relevancy of "blaming Obama" is the fact that he and his people are demagoguing economic issues which are:

A. Not that bad

B. Rooted in 9/11

C. Mitigated by tax cuts hated by Obama and the left

D. Potentially made MUCH worse by the tax increasing that Obama thinks is a "solution".

Was anyone affected by the market today? I sure as fuck was and I bet most here were in some way.

[LL2]

All Ty wants to know is how we can spin this as Obama's fault.

Obama padded his campaign coffers pretty good from the now bankrupt Lehman Brothers, and 3X more than McCain. Hmmm....I thought Obama money was from the little people?

Obama’s campaign treasury has collected nearly $400,000 in campaign contributions from employees of Lehman Brothers, while McCain campaign has $145,000, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a non-partisan research group.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26723715

[Tyrone Bigguns]

All Ty wants to know is how we can spin this as Obama's fault.

Obama padded his campaign coffers pretty good from the now bankrupt Lehman Brothers, and 3X more than McCain. Hmmm....I thought Obama money was from the little people?

Obama’s campaign treasury has collected nearly $400,000 in campaign contributions from employees of Lehman Brothers, while McCain campaign has $145,000, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a non-partisan research group.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26723715

Are you suggesting that Obama is to blame for this mess. Please have a little intellectual honesty.

400K....that is nothing. That wouldn't even buy Mac's sedona house. :oops:

Should we discuss the amount of lobbyist working on Mac's campaign right now...the reformer in bed with the lobbyists.

[LL2]

You asked how it could be spun as Obama's fault. I just gave you a way it could be. You want "intellectual honesty." Would that be from your perspective, mine, or someone else's? You always want a good debate and challenge, and that's fine, but it's done so that you can present yourself as the one that is right.

I would say this. Obama consistently raises obscene amounts of money each month, by far more that McCain. Where is he getting his money from? The little people? I doubt he is raising $66 mil from just $100-1,000 contributions. He may not have lobbyist on his staff, but I wouldn't doubt that we could find donors that want a little "influence". If you think McCain is the only one with lobbyist in his back pocket or on his campaign then you have been in the hot desert sun too long.

[Scott Campbell]

No wonder she left.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

No wonder she left.

How sad that you would resort to this kind of attack.

It would hurt if i cared one whit about your opinion.

[Scott Campbell]

Well, you wear your suffering on your sleeve Tyrone. I think it might help if people understood why you are such a miserable little fuck.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Well, you wear your suffering on your sleeve Tyrone. I think it might help if people understood why you are such a miserable little fuck.

Suffering. LOL

The real question is why you feel the need to hunt down every post and make a comment.

A simple joke..like the Obama and 20 mill gets you riled up.

[Scott Campbell]

Well, you wear your suffering on your sleeve Tyrone. I think it might help if people understood why you are such a miserable little fuck.

Suffering. LOL


I see. So now we are supposed to believe there was no suffering. Kinda like were supposed to believe your an angry black man. :lol:


Whatever you say Tyrone. :bs:


No wonder she left.

[Kiwon]

Can we all not get along? It's getting entertaining. :drma:

'Rone, life's tough being the top flamethrower. :flm:

I would advise you to cool it but that would be as effective as :bang:

[Freak Out]

These are some dangerous times.......

[LL2]

Looks like WaMu is struggling to get back up this morning...if they go under will my mortgage with them be free and clear?

[Freak Out]

Looks like WaMu is struggling to get back up this morning...if they go under will my mortgage with them be free and clear?

Ha ha....no but it may take them awhile to figure out where you need to send the check.

Sorry for laughing...this really is not funny.

[Freak Out]

Looks like WaMu is struggling to get back up this morning...if they go under will my mortgage with them be free and clear?

Ha ha....no but it may take them awhile to figure out where you need to send the check.

Sorry for laughing...this really is not funny.

What is crazy is that nobody seems to know who owes how much to who. It could all end up being owed to BA.

[LL2]

Looks like WaMu is struggling to get back up this morning...if they go under will my mortgage with them be free and clear?

Ha ha....no but it may take them awhile to figure out where you need to send the check.

Sorry for laughing...this really is not funny.

I know it was wishful thinking.

This mess that the banks and investment firms are in you got to wonder who will be the last man standing. If you pick the right one (or two) you could make a fortune. AIG is at $2 a share...looks tempting.

[Freak Out]

Looks like WaMu is struggling to get back up this morning...if they go under will my mortgage with them be free and clear?

Ha ha....no but it may take them awhile to figure out where you need to send the check.

Sorry for laughing...this really is not funny.

I know it was wishful thinking.

This mess that the banks and investment firms are in you got to wonder who will be the last man standing. If you pick the right one (or two) you could make a fortune. AIG is at $2 a share...looks tempting.

I'm going to take the plunge.

[GoPackGo]

AIG was at $70/share at one point. Today its around $4.15/share.
A $1000 investment today could turn into $17,000 if it gets that high again
hmmmm :?:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Well, you wear your suffering on your sleeve Tyrone. I think it might help if people understood why you are such a miserable little fuck.

Suffering. LOL


I see. So now we are supposed to believe there was no suffering. Kinda like were supposed to believe your an angry black man. :lol:


Whatever you say Tyrone. :bs:


No wonder she left.

Suffering is a present tense.

Divorce was 6 plus years ago.

Angry black man? Tyrone is a crack head...never have said anything about being angry.

Regardless...you stay classy scott.

[Scott Campbell]

Divorce was 6 plus years ago.


Then at some point you should try and get beyond lashing out. Going through life as a miserable little prick is no way to exist.

Whenever you're ready.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Divorce was 6 plus years ago.


Then at some point you should try and get beyond lashing out. Going through life as a miserable little prick is no way to exist.

Whenever you're ready.

As always...classy.

Perhaps it would be easier if you weren't attacking my every post, or calling me an asshole, etc. Simple jokes become just anothe opportunity for you to pile on. Deny it scott.

Your behavior is what it is...yours. You have acted like a miserable prick to others...woodbuck comes to mind. Now, it is my turn...cept, i'm not going cower or get unhinged.

I don't believe your lord and savior instructed you to act that way...something about turning the other cheek. Something about kindness.

Stay classy scott.

[Scott Campbell]

Think of it as tough love Tyrone. A real friend wouldn't allow you to keep going through life as a miserable little prick without saying something. You sound kind of lonely. I imagine you'll address it on your own terms, when you're ready. Just let us know.

[Freak Out]

AIG was at $70/share at one point. Today its around $4.15/share.
A $1000 investment today could turn into $17,000 if it gets that high again
hmmmm :?:

It's amazing the amount of money that was poured into the markets today by various governments around the globe. The FED is going to do all they can to get the private sector to bail AIG out with a "little" help from us again. I was reading about some of the sectors that AIG is heavily involved in...mortgage insurance in GB and Europe..and huge percentages at that. There is no way that is just allowed to go away over night. So many people could be affected by this one failure they have to hold it together.......don't they?
The transportation coverage alone would shut down huge operations if it was let go. Fuck. The more I read about all this stuff the worse you realize it is. Of course we are in deep debt as a nation as well.......

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Think of it as tough love Tyrone. A real friend wouldn't allow you to keep going through life as a miserable little prick without saying something. You sound kind of lonely. I imagine you'll address it on your own terms, when you're ready. Just let us know.

Well, now that you've cleared that up..you are a real friend....you can loan me some money. Real friends would help a crackhead with some cash for rehab.

I can count on your compassionate conservatism..right scott!

[Kiwon]

Time for a short respite from the financial chaos.

True story:

You know that you are part of a global economy when you get a letter from one of your mutual fund companies as I did, American Century Investments, and the name of their Chief Investment Officer is Enrique Chang.

:D

[Freak Out]

I just saw that the Alaska Permanent Fund lost 775 million the past two days. :cry:

[Freak Out]

Time for a short respite from the financial chaos.

True story:

You know that you are part of a global economy when you get a letter from one of your mutual fund companies as I did, American Century Investments, and the name of their Chief Investment Officer is Enrique Chang.

:D

:lol: Suave....debonair.

[Scott Campbell]

Well, now that you've cleared that up..you are a real friend....you can loan me some money. Real friends would help a crackhead with some cash for rehab.

I can count on your compassionate conservatism..right scott!


If I knew that you'd spend it on crack instead of wasting it on alimony, I might fork over some dough for you.

How much did she take you for?

[Freak Out]

Wall Street’s Next Big Problem

By MICHAEL LEWITT

Boca Raton, Fla.

WHEN I drove to the Beverly Hills offices of Drexel Burnham Lambert on Feb. 13, 1990, the last thing I expected to hear was that the investment bank where I worked was going under. Yet early that morning, we were told that the company was filing for bankruptcy. I was, to put it mildly, blown away. At the time, Drexel had $3.5 billion in assets and was the biggest underwriter of junk bonds.

It all seemed like a very big deal at the time. But what’s happening this week makes me pine for the good old days.

When Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy on Monday, it became the latest but surely not the last victim of the subprime mortgage collapse. Lehman owned more than $600 billion in assets. Financial institutions around the world have already reported more than half a trillion dollars of mortgage-related losses and that figure will most likely double or triple before the crisis exhausts itself.

But there is a bigger potential failure lurking: the American International Group, the insurance giant. It poses a much larger threat to the financial system than Lehman Brothers ever did because it plays an integral role in several key markets: credit derivatives, mortgages, corporate loans and hedge funds.

Late Monday, A.I.G. was downgraded by the major credit rating agencies (which inexplicably still retain an enormous amount of power in the marketplace despite having gutted their credibility with unreliable ratings for mortgage-backed securities during the housing boom). This credit downgrade could require A.I.G. to post billions of dollars of additional collateral for its mortgage derivative contracts.

Fat chance. That’s collateral A.I.G. does not have. There is therefore a substantial possibility that A.I.G. will be unable to meet its obligations and be forced into liquidation. A side effect: Its collapse would be as close to an extinction-level event as the financial markets have seen since the Great Depression.

A.I.G. does business with virtually every financial institution in the world. Most important, it is a central player in the unregulated, Brobdingnagian credit default swap market that is reported to be at least $60 trillion in size.

Nobody knows this market’s real size, or who owes what to whom, because there is no central clearinghouse or regulator for it. Credit default swaps are a type of credit insurance contract in which one party pays another party to protect it from the risk of default on a particular debt instrument. If that debt instrument (a bond, a bank loan, a mortgage) defaults, the insurer compensates the insured for his loss. The insurer (which could be a bank, an investment bank or a hedge fund) is required to post collateral to support its payment obligation, but in the insane credit environment that preceded the credit crisis, this collateral deposit was generally too small.

As a result, the credit default market is best described as an insurance market where many of the individual trades are undercapitalized. But even worse, many of the insurers are grossly undercapitalized. In one case in the New York courts, the Swiss banking giant UBS is suing a hedge fund that said it would insure nearly $1.5 billion in bonds but was unable to do so. No wonder — the hedge fund had only $200 million in assets.

If A.I.G. collapsed, its hundreds of billions of dollars of mortgage-related assets would be added to those being sold by other financial institutions. This would just depress values further. The counterparties around the world to A.I.G.’s credit default swaps may be unable to collect on their trades. As a large hedge-fund investor, A.I.G. would suddenly become a large redeemer from hedge funds, forcing fund managers to sell positions and probably driving down prices in the world’s financial markets. More failures, particularly of hedge funds, could follow.

Regulators knew that if Lehman went down, the world wouldn’t end. But Wall Street isn’t remotely prepared for the inestimable damage the financial system would suffer if A.I.G. collapsed.

While Gov. David A. Paterson of New York on Monday allowed A.I.G. to borrow $20 billion from its subsidiaries, that move will only postpone the day of reckoning. The Federal Reserve was also trying to arrange at least $70 billion in loans from investment banks, but it’s hard to see how Wall Street could come up with that much money.

More promisingly, A.I.G. asked the Federal Reserve for a bridge loan. True, there is no precedent for the central bank to extend assistance to an insurance company. But these are unprecedented times, and the Federal Reserve should provide A.I.G. with some form of financial support while the company liquidates its mortgage-related assets in an orderly manner.

The Fed cannot afford to stand on principle. The myth of free markets ended with the takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Actually, it ended with their creation.

Michael Lewitt is the president of a money management firm.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Well, now that you've cleared that up..you are a real friend....you can loan me some money. Real friends would help a crackhead with some cash for rehab.

I can count on your compassionate conservatism..right scott!


If I knew that you'd spend it on crack instead of wasting it on alimony, I might fork over some dough for you.

How much did she take you for?

I need the money for..uhh..uhh...rehab.

Alimony? Say what? Not a chance. Ty is way to smart for that...Ty is hoping to be retired within the next 3 years..5 max. And, then on to my fun career.

Take me? I took the best years of her life.....that is priceless!

[Scott Campbell]

New career? Perhaps you'll be too busy for PR. I imagine we'll miss you as much as she does. :lol:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

New career? Perhaps you'll be too busy for PR. I imagine we'll miss you as much as she does. :lol:

Don't worry, you have 3 years to prepare yourself. Treasure everyday.

[Scott Campbell]

Take me? I took the best years of her life.....that is priceless!



Yeah, I'll bet it was a lot of fun for you.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Take me? I took the best years of her life.....that is priceless!



Yeah, I'll bet it was a lot of fun for you.

Fun for everyone...till she got divorced!

[Scott Campbell]

Ty is way to smart for that...Ty is hoping to be retired within the next 3 years..5 max. And, then on to my fun career.


Cept smart guys don't save up to buy a new job.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty is way to smart for that...Ty is hoping to be retired within the next 3 years..5 max. And, then on to my fun career.


Cept smart guys don't save up to buy a new job.

Save up to buy a job? I have no idea what you are talking about.

However, I would say that people who save up and buy a company are doing exactly what you say smart people don't do.

[Scott Campbell]

Ty is way to smart for that...Ty is hoping to be retired within the next 3 years..5 max. And, then on to my fun career.


Cept smart guys don't save up to buy a new job.

Save up to buy a job?



Exactly. Chump move.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty is way to smart for that...Ty is hoping to be retired within the next 3 years..5 max. And, then on to my fun career.


Cept smart guys don't save up to buy a new job.

Save up to buy a job?



Exactly. Chump move.

I never said i was doing that.

But, i certainly can see why someone who has worked for years might decide to buy a franchise or decide to buy an existing business. I don't see that as being a chump move.

But, again..this isn't what i'm doing.

I'll still work, but it will be in a hobby area.

[Scott Campbell]

Ty is way to smart for that...Ty is hoping to be retired within the next 3 years..5 max. And, then on to my fun career.


Cept smart guys don't save up to buy a new job.

Save up to buy a job?



Exactly. Chump move.

I never said i was doing that.

But, i certainly can see why someone who has worked for years might decide to buy a franchise or decide to buy an existing business. I don't see that as being a chump move.

But, again..this isn't what i'm doing.

I'll still work, but it will be in a hobby area.


So opening a restaurant is a hobby? :lol:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty is way to smart for that...Ty is hoping to be retired within the next 3 years..5 max. And, then on to my fun career.


Cept smart guys don't save up to buy a new job.

Save up to buy a job?



Exactly. Chump move.

I never said i was doing that.

But, i certainly can see why someone who has worked for years might decide to buy a franchise or decide to buy an existing business. I don't see that as being a chump move.

But, again..this isn't what i'm doing.

I'll still work, but it will be in a hobby area.


So opening a restaurant is a hobby? :lol:

I don't know why you continue to postulate about opening a biz. That has never been a plan. I prefer to live off interest/yield/whatever the term you like..and work part time.

Restaurant: So, in your opinion those who open or buy restaurants are chumps? Not taking into account success ratio.

Ty isn't a chef. Ty has never owned or managed a restaurant. The only benefit Ty can see to owning one is that my food/alcohol bill would decrease...assuming i liked my own place.

[Freak Out]

At least you fuckers are working it back towards some financial type talk. :lol:

[Freak Out]

We bought a stake in AIG or gave them a loan? The US now has control of AIG. WTF? Can I have my old car insurance back please?

[Kiwon]

We bought a stake in AIG or gave them a loan? The US now has control of AIG. WTF? Can I have my old car insurance back please?

What was the word they were using in "Saving Private Ryan?" - FUBAR. :roll:

[texaspackerbacker]

We bought a stake in AIG or gave them a loan? The US now has control of AIG. WTF? Can I have my old car insurance back please?

To be precise, AIG was loaned $85 billion secured by WARRANTS--basically the ability to buy shares in the company at a fixed price. The government doesn't get control of the company unless AIG defaults. Even then, those warrants are basically marketable assets, so I would think the government would re-coup its loan by selling them rather than exercising them and taking over a private business. Of course, if the Dems get in, you never know. Government ownership of the biggest insurance company would be a significant step toward the socialism they covet.

[Kiwon]

Getting killed again today.

Down 9% right now. :shock:

[LL2]

We have our life insurance policies with AIG. I guess they are now backed by the security of the government.

China most be a nice lender giving all their money on loan to the US to pay for all these bailouts.

[texaspackerbacker]

I tended to be against bailing out AIG when the news of their plight first came out. However, it seems that they are big into mortgage insurance, among other things, and therefore, on the hook for a helluva lot of defaulted mortgages.

In addition to protecting the other aspects of AIG's business--various other kinds of insurance, as well as pension funds, etc., this mortgage insurance thing puts this bail out in pretty much the same category as the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bail outs--protecting the sources of money into real estate financing rather than letting it dry up, as some are fearful of.

Almost everybody agrees that the ultimate solution of the credit market "crisis"--I hate that word--is the end of the downturn in real estate prices. While that would eventually happen anyway, it will be hastened by the availability of more money for mortgage financing.

[texaspackerbacker]

We have our life insurance policies with AIG. I guess they are now backed by the security of the government.

China most be a nice lender giving all their money on loan to the US to pay for all these bailouts.

And yes, why are the Chicoms so "nice" as to loan/invest so much money at such a low rate of return in the American economy?

Good question. I don't really know. It does NOT increase their leverage and power over us--just the opposite. Many decades ago when American banks invested so heavily in third world countries, I thought and said, that didn't give us power over them, it gave them power over us because of the threat of default. Well, it's highly unlikely that WE--America--will default on debt to the Chinese for purely financial reasons. However, this does put China in the position of having a lot to lose in the event of major destruction of America--nuclear war, multiple acts of terrorism with WMDs, etc. Since China is one of very few powers even remotely capable of enabling that sort of thing, it tends to be a good thing that they are putting themselves in a position to lose severely if we go down.

If I was the Chicoms, and wanted to harm America--which they PROBABLY still do, I think a could find a helluva lot more effective ways to use my money toward that end than investing it in American securities. So why do they do what they do? I don't know. Maybe somebody on our side has some kind of arm-twisting ability on them that isn't readily apparent. Maybe the "Illuminati" or the "Zionist bankers" are pulling their strings and preventing them from killing off the parasitic host--America. Who knows!

[sheepshead]

Fannie Mae - whose fault is it anyway?

Our major financial institutions are dropping like flies -- Merrill Lynch, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup, Lehman Brothers, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac -- along with some major collateral damage such as insurer AIG, which was heavily invested in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (their stock is now worth pennies) and has suddenly lost its cash reserves.

This is an election year, and Democrats want to win the White House and retain their majority control over Congress, so it is a sure bet that Republicans will be blamed for everything.

Fortunately, for those of us who like to see all of the facts before we make a decision, the Internet allows us to search news stories from the past 5 or 10 or 15 years, and track the financial meltdown from the time it was just a blip on the radar of a few astute folks, to the current market crisis. Here are some interesting items that have recently been dug up by bloggers:

The three biggest total recipients of political contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are: Chris Dodd, Barack Obama, and John Kerry. All are Democrats. This list is even more stunning when you consider that Obama has only been in the US Senate less than three years, compared to Dodd (27 years) and Kerry (23 years). I'm going to guess that Obama's close ties to community organizing and advocacy outfits like ACORN, with their longstanding support for affordable housing, made Obama the most attractive member of the Senate in terms of supporting anything that Fannie and Freddie wanted. And get this -- Congressional Democrats want to give ACORN and other advocacy groups money from Fannie and Freddie's coffers in the form of an "Affordable Housing Trust Fund."

Near the end of July, John McCain directly addressed the ill fortunes of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and pushed for stronger regulation of both those entities. This is before the bottom fell out of Fannie and Freddie. At that time, Barack Obama had yet to make a statement about the solvency of Fannie and Freddie, or to propose a solution to the problem.

Whose policies led to the credit crisis? Five years ago, the Bush Administration outlined the oversight problems at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and proposed much tighter government regulation of them. Speaking for the Democrats, Congressman Barney Frank said, "These two entities — Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — are not facing any kind of financial crisis. The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing." In other words, in 2003, Democrats believed that more regulation was a bad idea, because it would put a damper on their expanded affordable housing programs. The "free market" had nothing to do with Bush's proposal or the Democrats' opposition to it.

The Clinton Administration pushed for an aggressive expansion of community development and affordable housing funds, luring banks into providing these loans with guarantees that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would be underwriting them. Two long-time Clinton cronies, Franklin Raines and Jamie Gorelick (of pre-9/11 law enforcement "wall" fame) together raided Fannie Mae for over $100 million in compensation, while their financial incompetence and accounting shenanigans cost the company billions.

Here's Robert B. Reich, former Clinton Administration Secretary of Labor, on MSNBC last night (transcript from RushLimbaugh.com):

REICH: In the latter years of the Clinton administration -- when I was not there any longer, I should add -- there was an attempt by Alan Greenspan and Bob Rubin and a few others to deregulate financial markets, and they did. They split commercial banking off from investment banking. And many people say, "Well, that was the beginning of the problem," and then, of course, in 2003-2004, Alan Greenspan reduced short-term interest rates to the point where every single bank wanted to lend money. I mean, if you could stand up straight you could get a bank loan because there was so much pressure to get that money out the door. Money was so cheap. So, yes, there is some responsibility on Democrats, some responsibility on Alan Greenspan and the Fed.

This Washington Post editorial sheds a stunning amount of light on the Bush Administration attempts to shore up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac with additional oversight and regulation, and the repeated attempts of Fannie/Freddie lobbyists and their Democrat acolytes to defeat those reforms. To wit:

President Bush was receptive to reform. He withheld nominees for Fannie and Freddie's boards -- a presidential privilege. While it would have been valuable politically to use such positions to reward supporters, the president put good policy above good politics.

In subsequent years, officials at Treasury and the Council of Economic Advisers (especially Chairmen Greg Mankiw and Harvey Rosen) pressed for the following: Requiring Fannie and Freddie to submit to regulations of the Securities and Exchange Commission; to adopt financial accounting standards; to follow bank standards for capital requirements; to shrink their portfolios of assets from risky levels; and empowering regulators such as the Office of Federal Housing Oversight to monitor the firms.

The administration did not accept half-measures. In 2005, Republican Mike Oxley, then chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, brought up a reform bill (H.R. 1461), and Fannie and Freddie's lobbyists set out to weaken it. The bill was rendered so toothless that [Andrew] Card called Oxley the night before markup and promised to oppose it. Oxley pulled the bill instead.

During this period, Sen. Richard Shelby led a small group of legislators favoring reform, including fellow Republican Sens. John Sununu, Chuck Hagel and Elizabeth Dole. Meanwhile, Dodd -- who along with Democratic Sens. John Kerry, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were the top four recipients of Fannie and Freddie campaign contributions from 1988 to 2008 -- actively opposed such measures and further weakened existing regulation.

The story is certainly complicated, but much of the evidence suggested that it was Democrats, not Republicans, who opposed mortgage lending reforms and additional regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Their opposition was linked directly to their support for "affordable housing" (a prominent civil rights/racial issue) and the lobbying dollars that they received from Fannie and Freddie. Money definitely talked, and it was Democrats who were listening.

[Kiwon]

Getting killed again today.

Down 9% right now. :shock:

Ditto. :(

[LL2]

And another bank got gobbled up....how many are there left?

[Freak Out]

What a goatfuck.

[Freak Out]

House just voted the bill down.

[mraynrand]

Good time to sell. SELL! SELL! SELL! PANIC IN THE STREETS!

[Freak Out]

Good time to sell. SELL! SELL! SELL! PANIC IN THE STREETS!

:lol:

Almost time to BUY BUY BUY!

What was that thing Bush and Paulson put out there? 390 pages of garbage?

[LL2]

It is defintely a good time to buy. I wonder if the Dow will fall below 10,000. If something doesn't get passed soon it will take even more than the $700 billion to stop the bleeding. Maybe congress should let Wall Street go to hell and let Main Street pick up the pieces.

[LL2]

The grave yard of the financial / investment firms continues to grow.

1. Bear Sterns
2. Merrill Lynch
3. Lehman Brothers
4. Washington Mutual
5. Fannie Mae
6. Freddie Mac
7. Wachovia
8. ???? who’s next

[Scott Campbell]

Today reminded me of the reason average stock returns are so much higher than many other "safer" investments. You're being rewarded for taking on risks, like those we suffered through today.

[Kiwon]

Today reminded me of the reason average stock returns are so much higher than many other "safer" investments. You're being rewarded for taking on risks, like those we suffered through today.

Companies without any significant debt issues will rebound.

Seriously though, this is becoming a rare buying opportunity.

Do any of you capitalistic pig Packer Rats have some companies you really like at these prices?

[Scott Campbell]

Maybe it makes sense to start hedging by shorting a couple of crappy companies.

[Kiwon]

It is defintely a good time to buy. I wonder if the Dow will fall below 10,000. If something doesn't get passed soon it will take even more than the $700 billion to stop the bleeding. Maybe congress should let Wall Street go to hell and let Main Street pick up the pieces.

All I want for Christmas are indictments against Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and all the former Clinton crowd at Fannie Mae that cooked the books and profited handsomely.

Charley Rangel, the man who oversees the tax code and then doesn't obey it, is too loveable to send to prison. Just kick his rear out of Congress and send him to his condo in the D.R.

That these jerks, these crooks, who oversaw this ridiculous Fannie and Freddie system and opposed reforming it in 2003 and 2005, are now part of the solution!!!

Greed is a problem everywhere but it's centered squarely in DC with lawmakers that go to Washington and never leave.

Who knows what’s in the bailout package but if these crooks had their way you can bet that “more government oversight” = more authority ceded to them to continue gaming the system. Everyone should be skeptical.

So somebody making $40,000 a year can’t immediately get into a $300,000 home. So what? Rent. And then save enough to make a reasonable down payment.

It’s socialist BS that every American has “a right” to own a home and that the government must facilitate. 50% of Americans pay zero federal taxes and then receive benefits on top of that. Why isn’t that help enough to get them to save their money for a down payment? No, instead the government sets up a ponzi scheme that has finally fell apart.

It’s time to get back to more free market solutions and less governmental control.

[Kiwon]

Maybe it makes sense to start hedging by shorting a couple of crappy companies.

Get shorty?

That's too risky for this PR. I let my subscription to George Soros' newsletter run out. :wink:

[Scott Campbell]

Maybe it makes sense to start hedging by shorting a couple of crappy companies.

Get shorty?

That's too risky for this PR. I let my subscription to George Soros' newsletter run out. :wink:



I'm not talking about a speculative short. I'm talking about something like 3 long positions to 1 short. Used as a hedge against market risk, I think it's another tool for diversification.

[HowardRoark]

Maybe it makes sense to start hedging by shorting a couple of crappy companies.

Get shorty?

That's too risky for this PR. I let my subscription to George Soros' newsletter run out. :wink:



I'm not talking about a speculative short. I'm talking about something like 3 long positions to 1 short. Used as a hedge against market risk, I think it's another tool for diversification.

There are a million homeowners that should not be homeowners......that is a lot of homes. Probably not much use for a homebuilder for a few years.

[texaspackerbacker]

"Should not be homeowners"--how can you say such a thing? You who pretends to be a Republican/conservative. This is as bad as saying people should be FORCED against their will to have health insurance.

This is America, for God sake. Freedom of choice and the market place determine such things, NOT some government regulation dictating outcomes.

If there are people who THE MARKET determines shouldn't own homes, they will lose them through foreclosure. While the absolute number of those may be fairly large, the percentage of foreclosures to total mortgages is miniscule.

Furthermore, with interest so pleasantly low as it is, if those people you say SHOULDN'T be allowed to own homes could not buy, they would have to rent. And rent of real estate is and has consistently been more expensive than mortgage payments. Maybe you think these people should live in cardboard boxes or something.

[HowardRoark]

"Should not be homeowners"--how can you say such a thing?

Because they can't afford them. They bought beyond their means via social engineering policies that now hurt them and our economy.

They were tinkering with the Invisible Hand the last 15 years.

[Kiwon]

Smoking gun from 2004: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

The Democrats flatly reject Republican calls for mortgage housing reform even as their own regulator warns of an impending disaster.

8:37 minutes of video demonstrates that what's currently coming out of the mouths of Pelosi, Dodd, Reed, and Frank are outright lies. :evil:

[Kiwon]

Great article.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/29/miron.bailout/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

.................................................. ...................

Commentary: Bankruptcy, not bailout, is the right answer

Editor's note: Jeffrey A. Miron is senior lecturer in economics at Harvard University. A Libertarian, he was one of 166 academic economists who signed a letter to congressional leaders last week opposing the government bailout plan.

CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts (CNN) -- Congress has balked at the Bush administration's proposed $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. Under this plan, the Treasury would have bought the "troubled assets" of financial institutions in an attempt to avoid economic meltdown.

This bailout was a terrible idea. Here's why.

The current mess would never have occurred in the absence of ill-conceived federal policies. The federal government chartered Fannie Mae in 1938 and Freddie Mac in 1970; these two mortgage lending institutions are at the center of the crisis. The government implicitly promised these institutions that it would make good on their debts, so Fannie and Freddie took on huge amounts of excessive risk.

Worse, beginning in 1977 and even more in the 1990s and the early part of this century, Congress pushed mortgage lenders and Fannie/Freddie to expand subprime lending. The industry was happy to oblige, given the implicit promise of federal backing, and subprime lending soared.

This subprime lending was more than a minor relaxation of existing credit guidelines. This lending was a wholesale abandonment of reasonable lending practices in which borrowers with poor credit characteristics got mortgages they were ill-equipped to handle.

Once housing prices declined and economic conditions worsened, defaults and delinquencies soared, leaving the industry holding large amounts of severely depreciated mortgage assets.

The fact that government bears such a huge responsibility for the current mess means any response should eliminate the conditions that created this situation in the first place, not attempt to fix bad government with more government.

The obvious alternative to a bailout is letting troubled financial institutions declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy means that shareholders typically get wiped out and the creditors own the company.

Bankruptcy does not mean the company disappears; it is just owned by someone new (as has occurred with several airlines). Bankruptcy punishes those who took excessive risks while preserving those aspects of a businesses that remain profitable.

In contrast, a bailout transfers enormous wealth from taxpayers to those who knowingly engaged in risky subprime lending. Thus, the bailout encourages companies to take large, imprudent risks and count on getting bailed out by government. This "moral hazard" generates enormous distortions in an economy's allocation of its financial resources.

Thoughtful advocates of the bailout might concede this perspective, but they argue that a bailout is necessary to prevent economic collapse. According to this view, lenders are not making loans, even for worthy projects, because they cannot get capital. This view has a grain of truth; if the bailout does not occur, more bankruptcies are possible and credit conditions may worsen for a time.

Talk of Armageddon, however, is ridiculous scare-mongering. If financial institutions cannot make productive loans, a profit opportunity exists for someone else. This might not happen instantly, but it will happen.

Further, the current credit freeze is likely due to Wall Street's hope of a bailout; bankers will not sell their lousy assets for 20 cents on the dollar if the government might pay 30, 50, or 80 cents.

The costs of the bailout, moreover, are almost certainly being understated. The administration's claim is that many mortgage assets are merely illiquid, not truly worthless, implying taxpayers will recoup much of their $700 billion.

If these assets are worth something, however, private parties should want to buy them, and they would do so if the owners would accept fair market value. Far more likely is that current owners have brushed under the rug how little their assets are worth.

The bailout has more problems. The final legislation will probably include numerous side conditions and special dealings that reward Washington lobbyists and their clients.

Anticipation of the bailout will engender strategic behavior by Wall Street institutions as they shuffle their assets and position their balance sheets to maximize their take. The bailout will open the door to further federal meddling in financial markets.

So what should the government do? Eliminate those policies that generated the current mess. This means, at a general level, abandoning the goal of home ownership independent of ability to pay. This means, in particular, getting rid of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with policies like the Community Reinvestment Act that pressure banks into subprime lending.

The right view of the financial mess is that an enormous fraction of subprime lending should never have occurred in the first place. Someone has to pay for that. That someone should not be, and does not need to be, the U.S. taxpayer.

[Kiwon]

Dow closes up 485.....sans a bailout.

That's great to see.

[Scott Campbell]

Dow closes up 485.....sans a bailout.

That's great to see.



Today I was rewarded for not panicking. Yay!

[oregonpackfan]

The grave yard of the financial / investment firms continues to grow.

1. Bear Sterns
2. Merrill Lynch
3. Lehman Brothers
4. Washington Mutual
5. Fannie Mae
6. Freddie Mac
7. Wachovia
8. ???? who’s next

As long as Americans put their faith in Secretary Treasury Henry Paulson and follow his advice, everything will be all right.

Paulson was the former CEO of Goldman Sachs and earned tens of millions of dollars a year before being appointed to his current position by George W. Bush.

Yes, Paulson is more concerned about the Americans on Main Street than he is of his colleagues on Wall Street. :roll:

[mraynrand]

Isold all my assets and invested into a growth business.

http://www.dailypainters.com/images/thumbs/746/daily_painter_tin_can___pencils.jpg

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/13/95713-004-07EFBC48.jpg

[Kiwon]

LOL, mraynrand. :)

By the way, can you spare a dime?

.................................................. ....

More wisdom from yesteryear. I'm parapharasing.

Will Rodgers quipped, "American is the only county in the world where people go to the poor house in a Cadillac."

[Kiwon]

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Dow's below 10,000. My stocks are running down another 12%+ right now AFTER the all important bailout.

The government has sold us out. :x

[LL2]

It will be a long while before the bailout deal benefits the economy and helps anyone out. Cash is king right now.

[Kiwon]

It will be a long while before the bailout deal benefits the economy and helps anyone out. Cash is king right now.

In the meantime, will the European and Asian governments and central banks hold up their ends to stabilize the markets?

What a house of cards.

[LL2]

The silver lining in all of this is that Cambell Soup's stock remains virtually unchanged and still pretty much at it's 52 week high. Does that mean people will be stocking up on soup?

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=CPB

[Freak Out]

The silver lining in all of this is that Cambell Soup's stock remains virtually unchanged and still pretty much at it's 52 week high. Does that mean people will be stocking up on soup?

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=CPB

Soup lines are getting longer. Solid buy in this market.

[LL2]

I made the mistake today of looking at our portfolio...it's down 34% :cry: for the year!

[Kiwon]

I made the mistake today of looking at our portfolio...it's down 34% :cry: for the year!

"These are the times that try men's souls" - Thomas Paine

[texaspackerbacker]

Things will be back.

Anybody in it for the long haul will be OK.

Of course, that's assuming we don't have repeats of 9/11, possibly radiological or even nuclear. And the way the polls are trending right now, chances of that are getting a lot more likely.

[Kiwon]

Things will be back.

You sure?

With the Dems possibly controlling the House, the Senate, and the Presidency?

That's a recipe for unchecked social engineering and wealth redistribution.

[MJZiggy]

I have no money to begin with.

[texaspackerbacker]

Things will be back.

You sure?

With the Dems possibly controlling the House, the Senate, and the Presidency?

That's a recipe for unchecked social engineering and wealth redistribution.

The FUNDAMENTALS OF THE ECONOMY ARE SOUND. McCain had that part right, and he should have expanded and defended that statement.

I say again, the ONLY thing that will FUNDAMENTALLY HARM the economy is some unthinkable event like 9/11--and THAT is infinitely MORE likely if the candidate gets in who has OPPOSED all of the factors that have successfully prevented that sort of thing up to now.

[mraynrand]

I sold short at the start of Monday's trading, then went long when the market was down almost 800. I made at least 35K in one day. I'm headed to a spa in CA to redistribute my wealth!

[Kiwon]

I sold short at the start of Monday's trading, then went long when the market was down almost 800. I made at least 35K in one day. I'm headed to a spa in CA to redistribute my wealth!

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about!

Good job! :bclap:

I'm 15 hours ahead of you and unfortunately require sleep time to time. I can't watch the markets closely in real-time. Great work catching the wave!

35K in one day. That's a day to remember. Excellent!

[HowardRoark]

Iceland was going to be my fall back country.......now Russia is buying them out. Maybe Croatia, I think they understand freedom, as they recently didn't have it.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/11/12/Iceland_wideweb__470x312,0.jpg

[mraynrand]

Iceland was going to be my fall back country.......now Russia is buying them out. Maybe Croatia, I think they understand freedom, as they recently didn't have it.

http://www.economist.com/images/20040522/2104SU1.jpg

"I don't like Croatia."

[Kiwon]

Iceland was going to be my fall back country.......now Russia is buying them out. Maybe Croatia, I think they understand freedom, as they recently didn't have it.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/11/12/Iceland_wideweb__470x312,0.jpg

I don't get it. What's in Iceland that is attractive to you? :mrgreen:

[Freak Out]

The blue lagoon is a place to visit.....Iceland is hosed ATM though.

I sold some more gold after the climb this week and dumped it back into large/mid cap that had plummeted. We'll see how it works out long term.....should be a great move though.

[MJZiggy]

So THAT's what I can do with the ex's ring...

[LL2]

Have we hit bottom yet?

[mraynrand]

Have we hit bottom yet?

I don't think Soros has made up his mind yet. :satan:

[Kiwon]

Have we hit bottom yet?

I don't think Soros has made up his mind yet. :satan:

"Look. We have to act. We immediately need $1 trillion in emergency funding in order to avoid a global collapse of the equity markets."

Wasn't that about a week ago before the global collapse of the equity markets?

[Bossman641]

OK, you guys all seem really knowledgeable so I'm hoping you can help me out. I just graduated and started working a year ago. I want to get into investing and trying to get a pretty good understanding, but it seems overwhelming and I don't really know where to start. Any pointers? Books or anything to read?

Thanks

[MJZiggy]

Well, right now stocks are cheap. I don't know much about it myself, but if the freefall continues, I may buy some index funds...

[HowardRoark]

The blue lagoon is a place to visit.....Iceland is hosed ATM though.

I sold some more gold after the climb this week and dumped it back into large/mid cap that had plummeted. We'll see how it works out long term.....should be a great move though.

Short the Treasuries. long the gold..........the printing press is going to be started.

[Scott Campbell]

I seriously thought I'd never see this in my lifetime.

[mraynrand]

The blue lagoon is a place to visit.....Iceland is hosed ATM though.

I sold some more gold after the climb this week and dumped it back into large/mid cap that had plummeted. We'll see how it works out long term.....should be a great move though.

Short the Treasuries. long the gold..........the printing press is going to be started.

Isn't that where the stock money is going - into T bills? Isn't their yeild really poor. Doesn't that contract everything?

Where is the bottom?

[HowardRoark]

The blue lagoon is a place to visit.....Iceland is hosed ATM though.

I sold some more gold after the climb this week and dumped it back into large/mid cap that had plummeted. We'll see how it works out long term.....should be a great move though.

Short the Treasuries. long the gold..........the printing press is going to be started.

Isn't that where the stock money is going - into T bills? Isn't their yeild really poor. Doesn't that contract everything?

Where is the bottom?

Bills are on the short end.....check out the 10-20 yr range. Rates are going up since last week. Flood of bonds on the market over the next year to fund all this stuff. Lots of stuff for sale=lower price....higher yields. Fed only controls the short end, market controls the long end.

[Kiwon]

Government :evil: :evil: :evil:

[LL2]

At least there is some good news. Gas prices are coming back down. $2.95 here in Chicagoland. My folks in Michigan say they are paying around $2.65. Maybe those SUV's and trucks will start selling again.

[Freak Out]

At least there is some good news. Gas prices are coming back down. $2.95 here in Chicagoland. My folks in Michigan say they are paying around $2.65. Maybe those SUV's and trucks will start selling again.

Great......that's all we need is a comeback for the full sized SUV. Mogas is still $3.50 here and diesel is $4.50.

[Kiwon]

So far, year to year, I'm down 160K.

I leave for Central Asia tomorrow.....several countries that end in "stan."

I hope no one suddenly decides to try and improve their own economic situation and kidnap the American.

I don't have much to offer in the way of ransom. :(

[Freak Out]

So far, year to year, I'm down 160K.

I leave for Central Asia tomorrow.....several countries that end in "stan."

I hope no one suddenly decides to try and improve their own economic situation and kidnap the American.

I don't have much to offer in the way of ransom. :(

Stay safe Kiwon.

[LL2]

So far, year to year, I'm down 160K.

I leave for Central Asia tomorrow.....several countries that end in "stan."

I hope no one suddenly decides to try and improve their own economic situation and kidnap the American.

I don't have much to offer in the way of ransom. :(

Stay safe Kiwon.

Bring a Hookah and you'll be just fine.

http://www.indiamart.com/ajayindustriesindia/smokingaccessories.html

[arcilite]

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k219/burndtdan/trickledowneconomics.jpg

[LL2]

Well, one of the election results I will be most interested in the how the stock market responds on Wednesday.

[MJZiggy]

It's predicted to get a boost either way the election goes.

[Kiwon]

Well, one of the election results I will be most interested in the how the stock market responds on Wednesday.

Wall Street welcomes President Obama.

Down over 900 points in 2 days.

Peachy.

[MJZiggy]

Phenomenal. To do on Friday: 1. Buy index funds...

[Kiwon]

Phenomenal. To do on Friday: 1. Buy index funds...

Nice rhetoric. How much are YOU actually going to invest?

$0.00 is my guess.

[MJZiggy]

I have $2k set aside for that purpose which still leaves a little in the emergency fund. One transfer of funds. A few clicks. A couple minutes. What was your next question?

I had intended to do it a few days after the market first crashed and then it rebounded before I got the chance.

[Kiwon]

I have $2k set aside for that purpose which still leaves a little in the emergency fund. One transfer of funds. A few clicks. A couple minutes. What was your next question?

I had intended to do it a few days after the market first crashed and then it rebounded before I got the chance.

Which Index Fund do you like?

[mraynrand]

Obama has been president elect for 2 days and I'm still paying for my own gas and my own mortgage. When do I get my monies from Obama?

[LL2]

Obama has been president elect for 2 days and I'm still paying for my own gas and my own mortgage. When do I get my monies from Obama?

You are not included in the "Spread the Wealth" plan.

I sure would like to see the price per barrel of oil drop to the $55 range.

[mraynrand]

Obama has been president elect for 2 days and I'm still paying for my own gas and my own mortgage. When do I get my monies from Obama?

You are not included in the "Spread the Wealth" plan.

I sure would like to see the price per barrel of oil drop to the $55 range.

Oh yes I am. at least until he redefines 'rich' again. According to my pay stub, I am below the lowest rich margin of 40K. I want my money and I want it now.

[HowardRoark]

uh, uh, is it, uh, OK if, uh Barack, uh just plays in, uh, uh pick-up, uh basketball games uh, for a, uh few weeks?

Everytime uh, he uh, talks, the market, uh, uh, uh, uh tanks.

[sheepshead]

Yeah, boy he sure sounds different without a teleprompter. Not very upbeat and certainly not very presidential.

[mraynrand]

I take it Barack gave his press conference. Did he say anything about my money? My gas tank is a little low and my wallet is a little empty too. Where is my money?

[Gunakor]

Well, one of the election results I will be most interested in the how the stock market responds on Wednesday.

Wall Street welcomes President Obama.

Down over 900 points in 2 days.

Peachy.

Today, 3 days after the election, stocks are rising again. Up 200 points before noon today. :?:

[HowardRoark]

I take it Barack gave his press conference. Did he say anything about my money? My gas tank is a little low and my wallet is a little empty too. Where is my money?

It's Bush's fault. Barack is busy consulting with living ex-Presidents.

[mraynrand]

Well, one of the election results I will be most interested in the how the stock market responds on Wednesday.

Wall Street welcomes President Obama.

Down over 900 points in 2 days.

Peachy.

Today, 3 days after the election, stocks are rising again. Up 200 points before noon today. :?:

Oh, thank Barack!

[Gunakor]

Well, one of the election results I will be most interested in the how the stock market responds on Wednesday.

Wall Street welcomes President Obama.

Down over 900 points in 2 days.

Peachy.

Today, 3 days after the election, stocks are rising again. Up 200 points before noon today. :?:

Oh, thank Barack!

That wasn't my point at all Aynrand. I don't credit Barack for the stocks rising today. My point was more twoard Kiwon, who solely blamed Barack for the stocks falling the previous two days. Can we agree that the new President-Elect is not the lone cause of either?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

No, we cannot. Everything that happens on the this planet is directly affected by Barack.

[Gunakor]

No, we cannot. Everything that happens on the this planet is directly affected by Barack.

I see. Well thank heavens Barack saw fit to make the stocks rise again today, I guess.

[HowardRoark]

No, we cannot. Everything that happens on the this planet is directly affected by Barack.

Pot meet kettle. Game, set, match.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

No, we cannot. Everything that happens on the this planet is directly affected by Barack.

Pot meet kettle. Game, set, match.

Say what? You must be on the grain belt early. Not once have i mentioned Bush in relation to the financial crisis.

Buhbye.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

No, we cannot. Everything that happens on the this planet is directly affected by Barack.

I see. Well thank heavens Barack saw fit to make the stocks rise again today, I guess.

I noticed i'm more regular since the election. Thanx Barack!!!

[mraynrand]

No, we cannot. Everything that happens on the this planet is directly affected by Barack.

I see. Well thank heavens Barack saw fit to make the stocks rise again today, I guess.

I noticed i'm more regular since the election. Thanx Barack!!!

You did seem constipated for the last several years - as in full of shit.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Why are you so bitter?

Rejoice, the one will be in office soon.

[Freak Out]

Well......at least oil is down.

[Bretsky]

Throw some stocks out there to ponder. I'm considering

Applied Materials
Associated Bank
ING

at these levels

Toss out some stocks you think will weather this storm

Those of us who pick the right ones IMO may have doubles in a couple years

[HowardRoark]

What do you Wisconsin guys think about Manitowoc Co?

Intel stunk it up after hours.

[Kiwon]

Throw some stocks out there to ponder. I'm considering

Applied Materials
Associated Bank
ING

at these levels

Toss out some stocks you think will weather this storm

Those of us who pick the right ones IMO may have doubles in a couple years

Good suggestion. I was thinking the same thing a few weeks ago.

However, frankly, now I'm worried about losing big with a couple of stocks. I'm gun shy to take much more risk.

The Facts: The Democrats have been utter disasters for 2 years. THEY are directly responsible for the housing crisis which started this whole financial mess and President Bush and the Treasury have just complicated things with all these "bailouts."

And the Market is at 5-year lows BEFORE Obama is sworn in, BEFORE Bush's cap gains tax cuts expire and BEFORE the Dems' new tax rates are implemented to "redistribute the wealth."

Remember Biden says it's the "patriotic" thing to do to pay more in taxes. What a philosophy coming from a guy that gave next to nothing to charity for years and years and now he's ready to be charitable with everyone else's money. :roll:

I'm shocked that things have become so bad, so quickly. Who knows what could happen with the socialism that's coming. I'm avoiding the market and staying in cash right now.

[Freak Out]

The worst is yet to come I'm afraid.....women and children first!

Things are going to get double ugly.

[Kiwon]

The worst is yet to come I'm afraid.....women and children first!

Things are going to get double ugly.

One class of stocks that are sure to go up - Pharmaceuticals that produce anxiety and anti-depressant medication.

:shock: :( :x :cry: :evil: :?

[Freak Out]

The worst is yet to come I'm afraid.....women and children first!

Things are going to get double ugly.

One class of stocks that are sure to go up - Pharmaceuticals that produce anxiety and anti-depressant medication.

:shock: :( :x :cry: :evil: :?

If anyone can afford to buy them that is! :lol:

[Kiwon]

Down ANOTHER 444 points?

ONE YEAR ago the Dow was at 13,000. Today it closed at 7552.

FUBAR

[Freak Out]

Start putting money in Gold.....go down to the local assayer and buy solids..no paper in these markets. :lol:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Llamas, baby, llamas!

[Freak Out]

Fuck a duck....Asia is down big...could be a very ugly day tomorrow.

[texaspackerbacker]

Fuck a duck....Asia is down big...could be a very ugly day tomorrow.

It wouldn't surprise me it they break a record for decrease in the Dow.

[Freak Out]

A mighty one fell. Damn....

December 12, 2008
Prominent Trader Accused of Defrauding Clients
By DIANA B. HENRIQUES and ZACHERY KOUWE

On Wall Street, his name is legendary. With money he had made as a lifeguard on the beaches of Long Island, he built a trading powerhouse that had prospered for more than four decades. At age 70, he had become an influential spokesman for the traders who are the hidden gears of the marketplace.

But on Thursday morning, this consummate trader, Bernard L. Madoff, was arrested at his Manhattan home by federal agents who accused him of running a multibillion-dollar fraud scheme — perhaps the largest in Wall Street’s history.

Regulators have not yet verified the scale of the fraud. But the criminal complaint filed against Mr. Madoff on Thursday in federal court in Manhattan reports that he estimated the losses at $50 billion. “We are alleging a massive fraud — both in terms of scope and duration,” said Linda Chatman Thomsen, director of the enforcement division at the Securities and Exchange Commission. “We are moving quickly and decisively to stop the fraud and protect remaining assets for investors.”

Andrew M. Calamari, an associate director for enforcement in the S.E.C.’s regional office in New York, said the case involved “a stunning fraud that appears to be of epic proportions.”

According to his lawyers, Mr. Madoff was released on a $10 million bond. “Bernie Madoff is a longstanding leader in the financial services industry,” said Daniel Horwitz, one of his lawyers. “He will fight to get through this unfortunate set of events.”

Mr. Madoff’s brother and business colleague, Peter Madoff, declined to comment on the case or discuss its implications for the Madoff firm, which at one point was the largest market maker on the electronic Nasdaq market, regularly operating as both a buyer and seller of a host of widely traded securities. The firm employed hundreds of traders.

There was some worry on Wall Street that Mr. Madoff’s fall would shake more foundations than his own.

According to the most recent federal filings, Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities, the firm he founded in 1960, operated more than two dozen funds overseeing $17 billion.

These funds have been widely marketed to wealthy investors, hedge funds and other institutional customers for more than a decade, although an S.E.C. filing in the case said the firm reported having 11 to 23 clients at the beginning of this year.

At the request of the Securities and Exchange Commission, a federal judge appointed a receiver on Thursday evening to secure the Madoff firm’s overseas accounts and warned the firm not to move any assets until he had ruled on whether to freeze the assets.

A hearing on that request is scheduled for Friday.

Regulators said they hoped to have a clearer picture of the losses facing investors by that court hearing.

“We have 16 examiners on site all day and through the night poring over the records,” said Mr. Calamari of the S.E.C.

The Madoff funds attracted investors with the promise of high returns and low fees. One of Mr. Madoff’s more prominent funds, the Fairfield Sentry fund, reported having $7.3 billion in assets in October and claimed to have paid more than 11 percent interest each year through its 15-year track record.

Competing hedge fund managers have wondered privately for years how Mr. Madoff generated such high returns, in bull markets and bear, given the generally low-yielding investment strategies he described to his clients.

“The numbers were too good to be true, for too long,” said Girish Reddy, a managing director at Prisma Partners, an investment firm that invests in hedge funds. “And the supporting infrastructure was weak.” Mr. Reddy said his firm had looked at the Madoff funds but decided against investing in them because their performance was too consistently positive, even in times when the market was incredibly volatile.

But the essential drama is a personal one — one laid out in the dry language of a criminal complaint by Lev L. Dassin, the acting United States attorney in Manhattan, and a regulatory lawsuit filed by the S.E.C. According to those documents, the first alarm bells rang at the firm on Tuesday, when Mr. Madoff told a senior executive he wanted to pay his employees their annual bonuses in December, two months early.

Just days earlier, Mr. Madoff had told another senior executive he was struggling to raise cash to cover about $7 billion in requested withdrawals from his clients, and he had appeared “to have been under great stress in the prior weeks,” according to the S.E.C. complaint.

So on Wednesday, the senior executive visited Mr. Madoff’s office, maintained on a separate floor with records kept under lock and key, and asked for an explanation.

Instead, Mr. Madoff invited the two executives to his Manhattan apartment that evening. When they joined him there, he told them that his money-management business was “all just one big lie” and “basically, a giant Ponzi scheme.”

The senior employees understood him to be saying that he had for years been paying returns to certain investors out of the cash received from other investors.

In that conversation, according to the criminal complaint, Mr. Madoff “stated that he was ‘finished,’ that he had ‘absolutely nothing.’ ”

By this account, Mr. Madoff told the executives he intended to surrender to the authorities in about a week but first wanted to distribute approximately $200 million to $300 million to “certain selected employees, family and friends.”

On Thursday morning, however, he was arrested on a single count of securities fraud, which carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison and a maximum fine of $5 million.

According to the S.E.C., Mr. Madoff confessed to an F.B.I. agent that there was “no innocent explanation” for his behavior and he expected to go to jail. He had lost money on his trades, he told the agent, and had “paid investors with money that wasn’t there.”

Although not a household name, Mr. Madoff’s firm has played a significant role in the structure of Wall Street for decades, both in traditional stock trading and in the development of newer electronic networks for trading equities and derivatives.

In building those new trading networks, his firm had formed partnerships with some of the largest brokerage businesses on Wall Street, including Goldman Sachs and Merrill Lynch.

Mr. Madoff founded Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities in 1960 and liked to tell interviewers about earning his initial stake by working as a lifeguard at city beaches and installing underground sprinkler systems.

By the early 1980s, his firm was one of the largest independent trading operations in the securities industry. The company had around $300 million in assets in 2000 at the height of the Internet bubble and ranked among the top trading and securities firms in the nation.

Mr. Madoff ran the business with several family members, including his brother Peter, his nephew Charles, his niece Shana and his sons Mark and Andrew.

Vikas Bajaj and Gretchen Morgenson contributed reporting.

[Bretsky]

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