big game coming up...is McCarthy a big-game coach?

[gbgary]

there's a learning curve that people have to deal with when getting a new job or promotion. MM has been going through this since his hire. this year with the quick start (4 consecutive wins in sept.) he entered october with a game against our biggest rival, the nfc north champion chicago bears. the team was running up and down the field at will and built a lead that chicago chipped away at, with the help of some turnovers, but the Packers went into the locker room at half-time with the lead. for what ever reason (i believe he was so pissed at Brett and JJ for the turnovers that he thought "i'll show them!" and benched JJ and took the ball out of Bretts hands) MM pulled the plug on the passing game and the bears took the game over and won. fast forward to november and the big showdown between the 10-1 Pack and the 10-1 cowboys. with a game plan in hand, written as if the Packers were already down by 21, he abandoned what had worked all season and came out wide-open-throttle. by the half Brett was getting treatment, Rodgers came in, down by 17, and surprised us with a good effort to make the scoreboard respectable. december comes and the second game against the then hapless bears. with home-field on the line the Packers came out unprepared and unmotivated and were blown out. three big games, three failures. his biggest game to date is this weekend...has he overcome the learning curve? we'll see.

[MJZiggy]

I'm putting my faith on this: If there is anything I've seen M3 do this season, it's learn from his mistakes. He walks out of every game win or loss with the attitude that there is something to be learned from what went on on the field. I never saw him yank on the reins the way he did against Chi. after that game, and I didn't see him let loose again the way he did in Dallas.

I think he can do it.

[RashanGary]

It's a myth that MM went wide open, attempting to just bomb it up. Those were not hail mary's or one option passes. Brett made all of those decisions and looking back, not all of the decisions were as bad as the resutls.

He threw a couple poor throws (just missed his WR's) on good oppertunities. It's not the coaches fault Brett just had a bad quarter. Hell, they shouldn't even play affriad the next time because Brett WILL hit some of those and it WILL change the game.

He had horrible pass protection on one and bad pass protection on the rest. Pass pro HAS to be better.

He made one really bad decision

Dallas made one sweet play on a break up by Newman

It wasn't a "we're going to air it up" situation. The Packers have done that all season with a lot of success. They just didn't have success in that game. Favre overthrew two of them (maybe he was amped up) but you can't blame McCarthy for calling plays that stretch the field. The way the Packers play, you can't have DB's creeping up on the short stuff. YOu have to keep them honest. Bottom line, we have to attack Dallas with some deep stuff in the next game if we make it. Brett made a rare bone headed decision in Dallas (just one). He has to get that cleaned up. The line has to block better and Favre has to throw a little more accuratly. It's excecution, not the game plan.

EVERY single bounce in that game went the wrong way in those first 2 quarters. Bad officiating. A couple high passes by an amped up Favre. Uncharacteristic bad pass pro from our veteran OT's. The players we had injured were important for matchups against Dallas and on and on. It was a bad game. I think people make way more out of it than what happened. We got beat that day. That was it.

[RashanGary]

And if you think we should limit our offense to short stuff so Brett can't get us killed iwth bad decisions or bad throws, you are essentially saying the coach should coach around our bad quarterback. I don't think we have a bad quarterback so I don't think he should limit the playcalling. In fact, I think we have a really good quarterback and by attacking the whole field it makes the entire offense almost impossible to stop. No, a poor big game coach is a coward who is affraid to play loose. Affraid to do what has worked. MM is an aggressive coach. He's exactly what we need and Brett is a damn fine quarter back. There is no reason we should take the ball out of his hands. We're not talkign about Rex Grossman here.

[MJZiggy]

I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I wasn't saying that he was responsible for Brett's overexuberant passing. He said after the game that he went into the game with the attitude that he wanted to be aggressive. I think what he learns from that game is that you go in with the attitude that you want to be controlled and take your shots when they come available. Brett knows when they come available. This control is what won them 13 games this season. I'm not saying ALL short passes, just an attitude of control over aggression. He does that, and they will carve Seattle like the Christmas goose.

[RashanGary]

sorry packinpatland. I freaked out a little during and after that game too. However, I went back and watched that tape over and over. After watching that whole game 5 or 6 times, I thought "holy shit, some of those plays were there. Favre just missed on his throw" and he threw HIGH just like in the old days in the first quarter.

Then Tausch and Cliffy were getting their asses handed to them and Favre had no time.

The the officials were doing thier best Tim Donahy impression

After watching, I came away thinking "If Favre would have just hit his throws, we would have scored on them at will." "If Favre had enough time to complete some of them, he might have done a better job". I don't think we have to worry about Tauch and Cliffy and I'm fine taking chances with Brett (as long as he doesn't throw into double coverage like he hasn't all year except for a handfull of bad passes). It really wasn't MM. It was just a bad day for a couple of our good players and Dallas played a nice game. That's all it was.

[RashanGary]

He said after the game that he went into the game with the attitude that he wanted to be aggressive.

I was responding to packinpatland but you were sort of buying into the whole MM shouldn't be aggressive thing so I guess it's to you too.

Ziggy, he should be aggressive. We have the personal to be aggressive. We have a QB who's taken shots when they've been available all year. Then on top of that, they were GOOD shots (except for one and with the way this season has gone, that's not the norm for Brett). Brett had a couple of them. If you have a QB who can throw it. OT's who can pass protect against good edge rushers and WR's who can stretch the field, why not do it when it's there? That's all they did (except for one bad play). They just didn't perform that day. It's not MM's fault. He doesn't have to correct anything. The only thing he has to do is have Tausch and Cliffy sharp on their pass pro and hope Favre is plyaing like he has for 12 out of the 16 games not like his worst 4 and it will work. Why should he change the aggressiveness?

[esoxx]

And if you think we should limit our offense to short stuff so Brett can't get us killed iwth bad decisions or bad throws, you are essentially saying the coach should coach around our bad quarterback. I don't think we have a bad quarterback so I don't think he should limit the playcalling. In fact, I think we have a really good quarterback and by attacking the whole field it makes the entire offense almost impossible to stop. No, a poor big game coach is a coward who is affraid to play loose. Affraid to do what has worked. MM is an aggressive coach. He's exactly what we need and Brett is a damn fine quarter back. There is no reason we should take the ball out of his hands. We're not talkign about Rex Grossman here.

Totally agree here JH. You need your entire arsenol and can't play scared. That doesn't mean we go to the Run N Shoot offense but if you play not to lose, you will.

[RashanGary]

I think we should all be happy that we have a coach that is willing to be aggressive in big games. Why would you want a play caller to call scared, esspecially with our personal.

[MJZiggy]

Let me try that again. THEY should have the attitude of being aggressive. BRETT should have the attitude of playing controlled, precision football. Like I said before, take his shots when they present themselves. It is their control and precision that's gotten them to this point (that and some serious talent and effort in the WR corps). The defense should be damned aggressive as should special teams (except when Ryan needs a short punt--pin 'em at the two, Jon!), but Brett Favre needs to step into this game with the attitude that he will play his game and not let anyone (like the Seattle D) sucker him into taking shots that aren't there. Better a knee than an INT.

[The Leaper]

It's a myth that MM went wide open, attempting to just bomb it up.

It is not a myth, JH. McCarthy came out and publically said that he EMPHASIZED going deep that week in practice. Trying to hit a big play off play action was McCarthy's game plan going in, and it was a flawed game plan.

[The Leaper]

And if you think we should limit our offense to short stuff so Brett can't get us killed iwth bad decisions or bad throws, you are essentially saying the coach should coach around our bad quarterback.

No.

You don't emphasize anything to Brett other than going through his progressions. He's enough of a playmaker on his own to identify advantages when he has them...you don't have to stick stuff in his head to force him to be aggressive.

Our offense doesn't have capable deep threats in terms of tossing up the ball and letting them go up and make a catch in traffic. Our offense puts up big plays when we get the ball to our WRs in space and let them make defenders miss.

[MJZiggy]

Our offense doesn't have capable deep threats in terms of tossing up the ball and letting them go up and make a catch in traffic.

Well except for Ruvell and freak bounces off players and tips. Man, he gets lucky with that kind of stuff.

[Cheesehead Craig]

MM gets to prove he can coach in the big game this Saturday. Everything else has just been prep work.

[LL2]

Hopefully M3 can restore the Lambeau Field mystique. Shermy screwed it up. GB used to be near unbeatable at home in the playoffs, until that horrible game against the Falcon's a few years ago.

[pbmax]

This narrative needs to die now. The Packers had begun to throw deep as teams adjusted to the slant, slant and more slant offense of September. The Redskins adjusted to it and less successfully, the Bears.

Remember the deep throws in Denver and Kansas City? Nobody was whining that the gameplan was being thrown out the window when it was a win.

Calling a few deep routes in the first half is not completely abandoning your offense. They thought they saw a weakness, one that other teams had exposed (deep secondary play of the safeties is the weakness of the Cowboys defense) and attempted to attack it. This is what I want my offense to do.

The Cowboys had people back deep, to my eyes, more than previous. So McCarthy and the O would need to adjust the plan. But when you have too much pressure up the middle to wait for the route to develop and throw it anyway even though its double covered, then you run the risk of an INT.

Not panic, not abandoning anything, not a young coach mistake. Cowboys adjusted to the threat of the deep ball. Pass protection is miserable. Interceptions happen. We didn't adjust until down by a couple of scores. You need to shore up two of these areas and you are fine. Better pass pro and better read wipe this from your memory.

More worrisome is that the D couldn't stop Romo or pressure him. ARodg showed you could move and score against the Boys D.


... fast forward to november and the big showdown between the 10-1 Pack and the 10-1 cowboys. with a game plan in hand, written as if the Packers were already down by 21, he abandoned what had worked all season and came out wide-open-throttle...

[pbmax]

So is it your contention that if any piece of a gameplan doesn't work, that the entire plan is flawed? Or do you believe that McCarthy wanted to go deep off play action every time?

Is any gameplan that needs to be adjusted at halftime irreparably flawed as well?



It's a myth that MM went wide open, attempting to just bomb it up.

It is not a myth, JH. McCarthy came out and publically said that he EMPHASIZED going deep that week in practice. Trying to hit a big play off play action was McCarthy's game plan going in, and it was a flawed game plan.

[pbmax]

Have you ever seen Donald Driver play?

And do you think the play was "Jump Ball 80 on TWO"?


Our offense doesn't have capable deep threats in terms of tossing up the ball and letting them go up and make a catch in traffic.

[Carolina_Packer]

There's nothing wrong with being agressive with the personnel you have, but there's smart agression and careless agression. Careless agression would be when there is a smaller chance for success on a play that you should read and take what is being given to you defensively, but you try and force the issue. The difference between smart agression and careless agression is how well the QB is able to read/react to a play while thinking ball security. Obviously the ability to be agressive is predicated on protections and getting open. The games I loved the best this year were the ones where they surgically took a defense apart, and picked their spots to go for the throat.

[The Leaper]

So is it your contention that if any piece of a gameplan doesn't work, that the entire plan is flawed? Or do you believe that McCarthy wanted to go deep off play action every time?

Does it matter?

FACT: McCarthy admitted he EMPHASIZED attacking the Cowboys deep.

The notion that we should drastically change our offense in the Cowboys game WAS flawed. Our offense gets big plays primarily from letting our receivers obtain yardage after the catch. Yes, we've hit on a few bombs during the season. However, those bombs usually came after our offense played considerable short ball before-hand...and caused the defense to start cheating up before tossing it over their head.

However, never did I see a half dozen play-action calls in the first 15 plays in a game. Never. We came out in Dallas looking for a knockout punch. It was the wrong plan. It was compounded when Dallas never respected play-action, yet we kept running it.

I don't think you'll see that from McCarthy ever again.

[Freak Out]

So is it your contention that if any piece of a gameplan doesn't work, that the entire plan is flawed? Or do you believe that McCarthy wanted to go deep off play action every time?

Does it matter?

FACT: McCarthy admitted he EMPHASIZED attacking the Cowboys deep.

The notion that we should drastically change our offense in the Cowboys game WAS flawed. Our offense gets big plays primarily from letting our receivers obtain yardage after the catch. Yes, we've hit on a few bombs during the season. However, those bombs usually came after our offense played considerable short ball before-hand...and caused the defense to start cheating up before tossing it over their head.

However, never did I see a half dozen play-action calls in the first 15 plays in a game. Never. We came out in Dallas looking for a knockout punch. It was the wrong plan. It was compounded when Dallas never respected play-action, yet we kept running it.

I don't think you'll see that from McCarthy ever again.

All the play-action stuff was not effective at that point of the game but #4 had more options than just going with the deep route on some of those plays. He has to make the right read. Like he has done on many of the deep TDs he has thrown this year.

[fan4life]

Speaking of Rex Grossman.... you might find it interesting to watch the 'hawks in the divisional round last year:

Bears vs Seahawks 1-14-07 (http://www.chicagobears.com/multimedia/multimediapopup.asp?mm_file_id=715&play_clip=Y)

[The Leaper]

All the play-action stuff was not effective at that point of the game but #4 had more options than just going with the deep route on some of those plays. He has to make the right read. Like he has done on many of the deep TDs he has thrown this year.

I'm not, nor have I ever, claiming Favre is clear of any fault. He made some bad decisions too.

However, after the first 2 or 3 play-action plays are failures...and the Cowboys CLEARLY aren't respecting the run...why stick with it? That decision is completely on McCarthy.

[gbgary]

We came out in Dallas looking for a knockout punch. It was the wrong plan. It was compounded when Dallas never respected play-action, yet we kept running it.



not only that but during a post-game interview, with one of the dallas dbs, the guy confessed that they were told "pay NO attention to Favre's pump-fakes." he said they were told to stay in their lanes or with their man.

not that radio guys are experts or anything but one dallas radio guy said that it was so shocking that "if this coach (MM) and this quarterback (Brett) come back to dallas in the play-offs that dallas would win by 50."

[MJZiggy]

We came out in Dallas looking for a knockout punch. It was the wrong plan. It was compounded when Dallas never respected play-action, yet we kept running it.



not only that but during a post-game interview, with one of the dallas dbs, the guy confessed that they were told "pay NO attention to Favre's pump-fakes." he said they were told to stay in their lanes or with their man.

Well, that could be handy if we play them again...

[Carolina_Packer]

I for one could live without the re-match if NY is able to pull off the upset next weekend. Dallas is much better than Tampa, but it could happen in the ream of possibility, especially if Dallas somehow lays an egg. That would be too cool. If Green Bay were to re-capture homefield by beating Seattle and NY beating Dallas, that would be incredible.

[Freak Out]

I for one could live without the re-match if NY is able to pull of the upset next weekend. Dallas is much better than Tampa, but it could happen in the ream of possibility, especially if Dallas somehow lays an egg. That would be too cool. If Green Bay were to re-capture homefield by beating Seattle and NY beating Dallas, that would be incredible.

If TO does not play I think NY wins. If TO is healthy then the Cowboys win by double digits.

[Carolina_Packer]

I don't think we have enough information on McCarthy to say whether he is a big game coach or not. Sherman had some nice regular season records, only to choke come playoff time (except for Seattle in '03). I'm happy with M3's progress to date, but to use our GM's line, the proof's in the pudding. If he wins in the playoffs, then he's a big game coach. I think he has the stuff to be for sure. No reason to think his approach would stop working.

[pbmax]

I'm sure this seemed like news at the time, but can you think of when a coach would advise "React to ALL his pump fakes?"




We came out in Dallas looking for a knockout punch. It was the wrong plan. It was compounded when Dallas never respected play-action, yet we kept running it.



not only that but during a post-game interview, with one of the dallas dbs, the guy confessed that they were told "pay NO attention to Favre's pump-fakes." he said they were told to stay in their lanes or with their man.

not that radio guys are experts or anything but one dallas radio guy said that it was so shocking that "if this coach (MM) and this quarterback (Brett) come back to dallas in the play-offs that dallas would win by 50."

[pbmax]

OK, that point of EMPHASIS wasn't working. They adjusted and scored 27 points with a backup QB after an ineffective quarter and a half.

But this wasn't some foolhardy experiment. You claim you haven't seen five or six play actions in the first fifteen plays from McCarthy, this claim is absurd. Play action has been his bread and butter for the two years he has been here. In September with no running game, he went empty backfield and shotgun much more, but THAT adjustment was the unusual one. He wanted the ZBS BECAUSE he wanted to play action pass.

But teams began to adjust to the short stuff. Think Washington, Chicago and Denver. The Packers had to adjust as well. They started going deeper in Kansas City and Denver.

The Cowboys kept another safety deep. This doesn't mean play action won't work, it means the deep option is problematic. An offense that junks it plan after two or three tries as you suggest should find a new coach if he has that little faith in his players and plan.

Much more important was the collapse of the protection and the defense's inability to stop Romo/Owens.




FACT: McCarthy admitted he EMPHASIZED attacking the Cowboys deep.

[gbgary]

well....MM and the Pack did it today. he had a great game plan. he stuck with it even after the shocking start and they f'n blew-out the seagals. CONGRATS MM AND THE PACK!!

[BallHawk]

I can't emphazie enough how great McCarthy was in his gameplanning and playcalling today. Absolutely top-notch. I was worried he was going to abandon Grant after the fumbles, but he stuck with him.

It's safe to say that it was a good decision. :D

[packinpatland]

sorry packinpatland. I freaked out a little during and after that game too. However, I went back and watched that tape over and over. After watching that whole game 5 or 6 times, I thought "holy shit, some of those plays were there. Favre just missed on his throw" and he threw HIGH just like in the old days in the first quarter.

Then Tausch and Cliffy were getting their asses handed to them and Favre had no time.

The the officials were doing thier best Tim Donahy impression

After watching, I came away thinking "If Favre would have just hit his throws, we would have scored on them at will." "If Favre had enough time to complete some of them, he might have done a better job". I don't think we have to worry about Tauch and Cliffy and I'm fine taking chances with Brett (as long as he doesn't throw into double coverage like he hasn't all year except for a handfull of bad passes). It really wasn't MM. It was just a bad day for a couple of our good players and Dallas played a nice game. That's all it was.

OK .......HH you've got me totally confused.

[MJZiggy]

big game coming up...is McCarthy a big-game coach?

As to the thread title, I'd have to say yes. He did a great job today, no deer in the headlights looks and called a great game--His players came ready to play and didn't overlook anyone, stuck to their guns, had great acting on the fakes and great execution when the bullets flew.