Roger Clemens and steroids

[Kiwon]

Clemens denies he did steroids. I believe him.

Am I being naive?

[Zool]

I am torn. He seemed pretty genuine on 60 minutes, but he and Pettite are best friends supposedly. He claims he had no knowledge of anything going on. Doubt we'll ever know for sure.

[MJZiggy]

Well, here's a question: Clemens has had a very long career and he's quite old. Do steroids keep you going longer, in essence preserving youth, or does the chemical reaction in your body make you stronger in the short term but break the body down more quickly. If it's the latter, I might be hard pressed to believe that if he did them, he did them for very long. If it's the former, I'm less certain about it.

[Kiwon]

Looks like Clemens is putting his money where his mouth is. He apparently is filing a defamation suit against his former trainer.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320551,00.html

I can't kid you. This guy is the Brett Farve of football for me and I respect the heck out of him.

It would bother me very much if these allegations were true, maybe something akin to the discovery that Brett Farve bet on football which would open questions on whether he threw INTs on purpose.

Brett Farve and Roger Clemens are heroes in my book and I don't want to believe that either of them would disrespect their professions to that degree.

That said, Roger has to defend himself to clear his name because too many of us are perpetual cynics expecting people to fail.

Baseball let this steroid BS get out of hand and now the chickens have come back to roost. Even if Clemens is clean, the sheen of MLB's shine will be tarnished by others.

[packinpatland]

He was sounding more credible as the interview went on.

His trainer.....who is he? There in, is the answer. He's a nobody, who is having his 15 minutes. Keeping himself out of jail, bringing down a sports icon.

[Deputy Nutz]

Read the Mitchell Report before you all start wondering who his trainer was. Apparently he was good enough to inject Roger with 'roids. Story is pretty detailed and he was facing federal charges if he was caught lying in the Mitchell Report, so I believe the story was credible.

[Cheesehead Craig]

McCarthyism all over again. Someone starts fingering people to save their own ass. Bigger the name, the better.

[Deputy Nutz]

McCarthyism all over again. Someone starts fingering people to save their own ass. Bigger the name, the better.

I don't know what kind of pressure or tactics that were being used during the interviewing process, but I still see no reason to lie about Clemens when he fingered Pettite and that was confirmed as truth by Andy himself.

[Freak Out]

Why is he going before Congress?

[packinpatland]

Was he ever tested with the results being positive? Does MLB test the same as the NFL?

[Deputy Nutz]

Was he ever tested with the results being positive? Does MLB test the same as the NFL?


Nope. That is why there has been a 10 month investigation. Baseball didn't start punishing players until two years ago for taking steroids. Really go to ESPN and read the Mitchell Report. It is really long but you can pick and choose what you want to read. I suggest reading the first part, intro to why there needed to be this investigation, then go look up players names and see the proof or info on why they have been sited, also note how the Players association refused to be of any help to the investigators or to their players themselves.

Just go here.
http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/12/13/mitchell.report.pdf

[packinpatland]

Without reading it, it sounds like they can't get out of their own way. :roll:

I got a few hours tonight................think I will read it.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Clemens attys are saying the trainer was pressured into specifically naming Clemens by investigators. This is going to be interesting.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Clemens definitely did performance enhancing drugs.

Let's take a look. One, he claims that he shot up lidocaine. LOL. Lidocaine is a local anesthetic. Injecting it into your rear would do nothing, numb some of the skin/muscle. Doesn't treat joint pain at all, and would do so for a very limited time period.

B12 doesn't do anything for the joints either. You get an energy boost, thats about it.

So, why inject lidocaine..unless you were numbing an area for REPEATED shots.

Two, take a look at his career. clemens was a the prototypical power pitcher. With the exception of Nolan Ryan these guys don't last long. But, even those that do, don't statistically match up with what Clemens has done.

From 93 to 96, clemens wasn't clemens (11-14, 9-7, 10-5, 10-13). Suddenly after moving to Toronto at age 35 clemens becomes clemens again. Starting 30 plus games 2 consecutive years..when he could only do that once in the past 4 years.

BTW, his toronto teammate was JOSE CANSECO.

C'mon, he was 18-4 and 17-9 at ages 41 and 42. His ERA is ridiculous in the 18-4 year and the next couple as compared to the league average.

Take a look at Ryan's last couple of years. Clemens obliterates him. At 43 he had a sub 2.0 era almost 1.5 runs better than Ryan.

The shame is that Clemens could just petered out like most players and still been elected to the Hall. Now, everything is in doubt.

Third, Mcnamee (spelling?) seems very credible. And, more importantly his attorneys seem ready to go. That doesn't sound like a guy who is lying.

Fourth, Clemens' best bud is Pettite..and now he is claiming he didn't know Pettite did drugs. LOL

Finally, tyrone knows a few people that move in the baseball world (friends of ballplayers, stores they frequent, childhood friends, etc.) including a friend who pitched in the majors..and that friend has told tyrone about a number of players juicing and what happens on the road with women.

Tyrone has been informed by one of those people and has been around a pro ballplayer who said clemens did juice. The ballplayer said it wasn't by accident that Clemens retired every year and then came back late to a club...helped avoid drug tests.

Anyone who was a baseball fan knew something was going on. When guys like Bret boone are clubbing 35 homers at age 34 something is fishy. When Gonzo hits 57 homers at age 33 when his previous high was 31, something is fishy.[/b]

[Kiwon]

TB, all valid points.

.................................................. .................................................. .
Wait a second, hold the phone (or tape a phone call)! Clemens did a "Linda Tripp" on his former trainer.

There were no bombshells disclosed but apparently the trainer never contradicted Clemens denials. That said, the public needs to read the whole transcript to understand the context.

On tape, McNamee says he'd go to jail for Clemens

HOUSTON (AP) — Roger Clemens' former trainer said he was willing to go to jail and repeatedly asked the pitcher "what do you want me to do?" during a 17-minute telephone conversation last week.

A recording of last Friday's conversation between Clemens and Brian McNamee was played Monday at the start of Clemens' news conference. Clemens' lawyers said that because McNamee didn't deny Clemens' claims that he never used steroids, it amounted to proof that Clemens was telling the truth.

"I'll go to jail, I'll do whatever you want," McNamee said during the conversation.

"I need somebody to tell the truth," Clemens said.

During the tape, McNamee never said he lied when he told baseball investigator George Mitchell last year that he injected Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone in 1998, 2000 and 2001.

"I'm in your corner," McNamee said. "I'd also like not to go to jail, too."

Late Sunday, Clemens filed a defamation suit against McNamee in Texas state court.

Clemens was mostly expressionless while the tape played, even when McNamee said, "You treated me like family."

Clemens said McNamee initiated the conversation, which was laced with emotion and profanity. McNamee, a former strength coach for the Toronto Blue Jays and New York Yankees, sounded as if he were a desperate man.

"I'm firing my lawyers. I'm getting rid of everybody," McNamee said. "My wife is gone. My kids are gone."

After the tape was played, Hardin said Clemens was willing to testify Jan. 16 to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. Clemens and McNamee were invited to Washington along with Andy Pettitte, Chuck Knoblauch and Kirk Radomski, the former Mets' clubhouse attendant alleged to have provided McNamee with performance-enhancing drugs.

"I'm going to Congress and I'm going to tell the truth," Clemens said.

On Sunday, CBS's 60 Minutes aired a Dec. 28 interview with Clemens, the first time he answered questions since the Mitchell Report on drugs in baseball was released Dec. 13. Monday was the first time Clemens answered questions from a group of reporters.

His anger at reporters for the way he has been portrayed was clear when he mentioned the Hall of Fame. There has speculation that the allegations in the Mitchell Report would hurt his chances for induction.

"Do you think I played my career because I care about the Hall of Fame? ... If you have a vote ... you keep your vote," he said and walked off shortly afterward.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Interesting that Clemens never answers the question of "what do you want me to do."

Your story has more and less to it than the espn version:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3185494
<begin>
One of McNamee's lawyers, Earl Ward, told Andrew Marchand of ESPN 1050 radio in New York that "the tape adds absolutely nothing."

The New York Daily News also reported on Monday that days before the scheduled release of the Mitchell report Clemens' investigators asked McNamee whether he would be willing to recant.

McNamee reportedly called Clemens and Pettitte to warn them that he had spoken to the government. During an interview on "60 Minutes" which aired on Sunday night, Clemens denied knowing that he would be named by Mitchell.

</end>

Clemens is gonna get caught in his web of lies. Attorney friend speculates that Clemens filed his lawsuit so he wouldn't be able to fully testify. Kinda thing where he can say, "i can't comment as i have ongoing lawsuit it could affect."

BTW, couple of things. In Canseco's book, which at this moment looks like the most truthful thing out there, the term b-12 is used for juice by ballplayers.

At this stage we have a he said/he said type of situation. We can gather all the evidence we want and determine the likelihood McNamee is telling the truth. We can compare that to the likelihood Clemens is telling the truth. But all that would give us is percentages.

Another McNamee client, Andy Pettitte, has copped to the performance-enhancer usage McNamee described. That gives McNamee credibility, and hurts Clemens' credibility. We can look at Clemens' body, and look at his freakish ability to dominate at an age when most pitchers are done and say that fact hurts Clemens' credibility.

We can play this game all day. But we'll never get more than percentages of truth.

That's where the legal system comes in. Now, I am not naive enough to think that raising your right hand guarantees that a witness will spill his guts and tell the truth. But I do know that it's a pretty good impetus to stick with the facts. Perjury charges are a drag. Barry could tell Roger about that.

Ideally, if McNamee lied about Clemens, the legal system would come into play immediately. Clemens would sue McNamee, not so much for money, but to save his reputation. As part of McNamee's deal with prosecutors, if he is found to have lied, he will go to jail. So put him on the witness stand. And put Clemens on the witness stand, get him under oath, remind him that perjury is a crime, and let him give his side.

If Clemens did nothing wrong, the legal system is his best hope for salvation. Say it under oath, and your credibility spikes upward.

Clemens' lawyer, Rusty Hardin, said in a press conference that he won't take such a tack. "I hope you don't tell future clients of mine this, but a lawsuit is the least desirable way to resolve anything," Hardin says. "It drags on two or three years, very often it reaches inconclusive results because of money and time and expenses. It makes you unable to concentrate on anything else. It takes over your life, and he doesn't need that."

This is a very bizarre statement. Clemens is done with baseball. His only challenge now is salvaging his reputation. When Hardin says a lawsuit would make Clemens unable to concentrate on anything else, you have to wonder, what else does he have to concentrate on? Is Clemens, as Hardin suggests, worried about money and expenses? The guy made nearly $18 million for half a season's work last year. How is it that money could even remotely be an issue when the legitimacy of everything Clemens accomplished is being called into question?

[Iron Mike]

Clemens denies he did steroids. I believe him.

Am I being naive?

It's pretty obvious he has signs and symptoms of pernicious anemia.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/prnanmia/prnanmia_signs.html


Hence the B-12 injections.

[Bretsky]

Clemens denies he did steroids. I believe him.

Am I being naive?

imo.....yes

[Jimx29]

Never cared for the in the first place, and now after watching 95% of the interview, I loath him.
Pompous comes to mind :roll:

[twoseven]

I believe he did. The interview made him look more guilty in my opinion. His avoidance and anger in responding to some of Wallace's fair questions made him look like he was hiding something. Now if he had given the same angry interview that he did the day after 60 minutes about four weeks ago I would have given him the benefit of the doubt. Waiting so long to get fired up and give interviews looks bad, and would make sense if you were hiding something. Sorry Roger, not looking good at all.

[twoseven]

Well, here's a question: Clemens has had a very long career and he's quite old. Do steroids keep you going longer, in essence preserving youth, or does the chemical reaction in your body make you stronger in the short term but break the body down more quickly. If it's the latter, I might be hard pressed to believe that if he did them, he did them for very long. If it's the former, I'm less certain about it.


They'll stay with you only for a time, lose them long enough, lose the benefits. The stories you hear about breaking the body down are more applicable to lontime users than here and there's like Clemens may have been. They help muscle grow stronger and larger, help the body heal faster (injury or post workout-so you can get back on the field quicker, or in the gym sooner and more frequently, why roid users can get bigger faster), and help the body to preserve muscle if you are overtrained, malnourished, not taking good care of youself. All in all they can be extremely beneficial to a pro pitcher up there in years. In my opinion they are much more helpful to a pitcher than a hitter because of what they do for you. Would help velocity and stamina, and would be especially helpful in avoidance and reapir of injuries, something that seems to catch up with all ballplayers as the year goes on. They do nothing for a couch potato, must be combined with an excellent training regimen to get best results, no need to mention that Roger definitely did that. I'd like to believe he didn't, but I believe he did take them. It's his reaction to everything, not the physical skills he still shows off that makes me no believe him. Nolan Ryan was doing the same amazing things as an old guy on the mound, clean I believe. Roger, not so sure anymore.

[MJZiggy]

Thanks for answering my question and welcome to the forum. :glug:

[twoseven]

Thanks for answering my question and welcome to the forum. :glug:
Thanks. JSO forum is coming to an end, Bretsky convinced me this was the place to go, I remember you and many others from JSO (pre rats). Look forward to plenty of normal, non-abusive talk.

[MJZiggy]

Bretsky was right (though we do abuse Tank for a while whenever he shows up).

[Harlan Huckleby]

Bretsky was right (though we do abuse Tank for a while whenever he shows up).

the grief that you and the rest of the Tankless bunch dish-out repetitively is so boring and lame, year after year. Tank wears his peculiarities on his sleave, and people just keep taking the bait. Making fun of Tank is like criticizing Richard Simmon's faggy red shorts. Or calling Jackie Gleason a fatty. Or shooting fish in barrell.

[MJZiggy]

So do something better, you wet-nosed mongrel!

(so much for non-abusive :oops: )

[Harlan Huckleby]

honestly, there isn't that much to make fun of Tank for. It's all old material.

Most people who dislike Tank, like KY, just ignore him now. I don't think Zool was around in the old days, so his Tank indignation has a freshness. Hope he gets tired soon.

[twoseven]

honestly, there isn't that much to make fun of Tank for. It's all old material.

Most people who dislike Tank, like KY, just ignore him now. I don't think Zool was around in the old days, so his Tank indignation has a freshness. Hope he gets tired soon.

My suggestion to anyone over at JSO when Tank started in with his schpiel (sp?) was to imagine Tank was Dwight Schrute (The Office) as you read his posts. If you know Dwight Schrute's mannerisms and personality this actually turns out to be a pretty entertaining, sometimes hilarious distraction.

[digitaldean]

Isn't it something?? Now Clemens' ambulance chaser lawyer is kind of backing away from saying Clemens will testify before Congress.

What an absolute puke. Obviously he doesn't want a perjury charge slammed on him like Marion Jones, huh?

[Deputy Nutz]

Bretsky was right (though we do abuse Tank for a while whenever he shows up).

the grief that you and the rest of the Tankless bunch dish-out repetitively is so boring and lame, year after year. Tank wears his peculiarities on his sleave, and people just keep taking the bait. Making fun of Tank is like criticizing Richard Simmon's faggy red shorts. Or calling Jackie Gleason a fatty. Or shooting fish in barrell.

Something we agree on.

[Kiwon]

Conviction by body language.

Maybe the guy is guilty but that can't be determined by this pseudo science. Body language experts are the head bump readers of the 21th Century, IMHO.

Here's ESPN's version of this crock.

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3245804&categoryId=2521705&n8pe6c=2

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Conviction by body language.

Maybe the guy is guilty but that can't be determined by this pseudo science. Body language experts are the head bump readers of the 21th Century, IMHO.

Here's ESPN's version of this crock.

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3245804&categoryId=2521705&n8pe6c=2

Yet, I have never seen you complain once about O'reilly who does this weekly.

Take off the blinders.

[esoxx]

Conviction by body language.

Maybe the guy is guilty but that can't be determined by this pseudo science. Body language experts are the head bump readers of the 21th Century, IMHO.

Here's ESPN's version of this crock.

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3245804&categoryId=2521705&n8pe6c=2

I don't think this can be simply dismissed as a crock. Body language and "tells" quite certainly occur. Maybe it's because you believe your hero didn't take steroids and want to dismiss anything that would shed even more bad light on him to be dismissed as mertiless.

I've been in seminars w/ former FBI folks about interrogation tatics, body language and tell signs. They're very real.

[twoseven]

Conviction by body language.

Maybe the guy is guilty but that can't be determined by this pseudo science. Body language experts are the head bump readers of the 21th Century, IMHO.

Here's ESPN's version of this crock.

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3245804&categoryId=2521705&n8pe6c=2

I don't think this can be simply dismissed as a crock. Body language and "tells" quite certainly occur. Maybe it's because you believe your hero didn't take steroids and want to dismiss anything that would shed even more bad light on him to be dismissed as mertiless.

I've been in seminars w/ former FBI folks about interrogation tatics, body language and tell signs. They're very real.

Christopher Walken as Vincenzo Coccotti interrogating Dennis Hopper as Cliff Worley in True Romance..

Coccotti: 'Sicilians are great liars. The best in the world. I'm a Sicilian. And my old man was the world heavyweight champion of Sicilian liars. And from growin' up with him I learned the pantomime. Now there are seventeen different things a guy can do when he lies to give him away. A guy has seventeen pantomimes. A woman's got twenty, but a guy's got seventeen. And if you know 'em like ya know your own face, they beat lie detectors to hell. What we got here is a little game of show and tell. You don't wanna show me nothin'. But you're tellin' me everything. Now I know you know where they are. So tell me, before I do some damage you won't walk away from.'

[Tyrone Bigguns]

twoseven,

You're part eggplant!

[Kiwon]

Conviction by body language.

Maybe the guy is guilty but that can't be determined by this pseudo science. Body language experts are the head bump readers of the 21th Century, IMHO.

Here's ESPN's version of this crock.

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3245804&categoryId=2521705&n8pe6c=2

Yet, I have never seen you complain once about O'reilly who does this weekly.

Take off the blinders.

TB,

There is a Fox cable channel but there is no Fox News in Korea. Besides, I'm not a Bill O'Reilly fan. I know his body language segments are popular but I still think its a pseudo science. They broadcast those segments strictly for ratings, not for the intrinsic value.
...........................

Essox,

Did you watch the ESPN clip and listen to the lady's opinions? - "He wrinkled his nose when he spoke about pitching for Team USA which indicates anger towards the country" or some such nonsense as that.

Certainly there are non-verbal clues to behavior but who defines just what they are and what they mean? It's completely subjective.

The FBI once used their personality profile skills and nailed the infamous Richard Jewel in the Atlanta Olympics bombing. The man saved people's lives but the "experts" fingered him as the prime suspect. They trashed his life, incorrectly, and then made amends by sending him a letter telling him that he was no longer a suspect. Gee, thanks. "But, he fit the profile....." according to whom?

For everyone who buys into the credibility of "body language experts" I bet there are three "experts" that can ably discredit them. There are plenty of people walking the streets that have done all kinds of bad things that are indiscernible through their everyday actions and demeanor.

Not all good actors live in Hollywood or New York, you know.

Now, TB, Esoxx, I want to know your blood types and whether your second and fourth fingers on each hand are exactly the same lengths. I'm going to analyze your personalities for free and explain why you choose the avatars that you did.

Those who determine personality by blood type and finger lengths are in the same categories of credibility I'd place many, not all, but many of these "body language experts."

And if Clemens is legally guilty, so be it. But putting him on trial in the court of public opinion with this fad, pseudo science is unfair IMHO.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Conviction by body language.

Maybe the guy is guilty but that can't be determined by this pseudo science. Body language experts are the head bump readers of the 21th Century, IMHO.

Here's ESPN's version of this crock.

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3245804&categoryId=2521705&n8pe6c=2

Yet, I have never seen you complain once about O'reilly who does this weekly.

Take off the blinders.

TB,

There is a Fox cable channel but there is no Fox News in Korea. Besides, I'm not a Bill O'Reilly fan. I know his body language segments are popular but I still think its a pseudo science. They broadcast those segments strictly for ratings, not for the intrinsic value.
...........................



Wow. You really backpedal quickly. You may think it is psuedo science, but in no way does O'reilly present it that way. And, by no way does the audience take it as just for the ratings. Your assertation is ridiculous. Are you telling me that viewers tune in just for that segment and then leave? LOL

[twoseven]

twoseven,

You're part eggplant!

'You're a cantaloupe.'

Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang.

'I haven't killed anyone since 1984.'

[Tyrone Bigguns]

twoseven,

You're part eggplant!

'You're a cantaloupe.'

Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang.

'I haven't killed anyone since 1984.'

Twoseven, do I look like a beautiful blonde with big tits and an ass that tastes like French vanilla ice cream?

[twoseven]

twoseven,

You're part eggplant!

'You're a cantaloupe.'

Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang.

'I haven't killed anyone since 1984.'

Twoseven, do I look like a beautiful blonde with big tits and an ass that tastes like French vanilla ice cream?
No, you look like Dave Chappelle.