Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan Huckleby
No you're not. Your proposed policies make taking on the financial risk of starting a business look completely fool hardy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan Huckleby
No you're not. Your proposed policies make taking on the financial risk of starting a business look completely fool hardy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan Huckleby
You're a fool Harlan. If you weren't so obsessed with "fair", you'd get them to pay more.
If your theories were so generally agreed upon, why do all these tax dodges exist? Why will my Roth income not be taxed?
Lets be clear what my vision of taxes would look like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Campbell
Everybody would pay a flat tax rate, after perhaps a 20K standard deduction to help those at the bottom.
Capital gains would be taxed just like wages.
Social Secuity would be paid for out of the treasury, rather than collected seperately in an inequitable manner.
That's it. I'm a wild-eyed crazy, eh!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan Huckleby
1) I'm for public education.
2) Social Security is a complete mess, as you have already agreed.
3) Where have I commented on Unemployment insurance?
I would end all corporate taxes and taxes on business profits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Campbell
I would provide basic health insurance so that small businesses and entrepreneurs have a fighting chance.
I would be generous in admitting Mexicans as guest workers and citizens so that businesses have adequate labor supply.
I am a strong advocate of free trade.
Guess what Scott, I am extremely pro-business.
My socialist side is that I want to generously help people who suffer from the policies that I advocate, help people educate themselves, retrain and remain productive.
There will be a substantial tax burden to pull this off, but mitigated by robust revenues from a healthy economy, as you supply siders are so fond of emphasising.
your comments on the layed-off Ohio worker speak volumes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Campbell
SS - you are prepared to trash it rather than fix it.
Public Education - your comments on vouchers as fix are not encouraging. That is a big topic.
Your hostitilty to paying taxes, even simply at the same rate that working people pay them, show little commitment to the general welfare.
Such as? These people are getting 35% of their money taken. There are people out there who don't pay any taxes and get money back. How unfair is that? Those people likely work 5 hours a week, where as somewhere earning 100k in Wisconsin is probably putting in 60+ hours a week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan Huckleby
Every dollar for everyone is taxed. SS is dumb but I say keep it around for awhile longer. People earning 20k don't get taxed. People earning 50k and up bear the burden for those earning less. That's BS. Perhaps they should work a little harder or choose a different career path. Capital gains are taxed as well. Only since the ROTH ira came out did they stop that, realizing these people are paying 5% of their money to SS and they will never see a dime of it.Quote:
People who earn 20K ->80K are really, really getting fucked. Every dollar they earn gets clobbered by the Social Security tax. (I won't repeat why the SS collection/accounting is a massive tax offset benefiting wealthier person, I doubt you are listening anyway.) And just as importantly, people earning > 80K are taking far greater advantage of the Capital Gains dodge.
Personally, I think the vast majority of American's are lazy idiots, so I would expect to disagree with them. With the bloated government we have, a hearty chunk of them are employees toting the company line hoping for a raise. I don't think my views are extreme at all, I think Fair Tax is a very fair and moderate idea. If people that make a lot of money spend a lot of money, then they pay the penalty. The people like my dad that live on less money than most people on welfare despite earning 100k+ won't be penalized and asked to foot the bill for society. In my opinion, its called fair tax because it truly is fair. It takes care of the really poor, it takes care of the upper middle class and warren buffet types who live extremely frugally, and most importantly it gets rid of the tax form and makes every person in America, not just citizens or those smart enough to fill out the form, to pay their fair share. The people that are too poor to pay their fair share should live within their means and they will have their expenses paid back in the form of a monthly rebate check.Quote:
You & Scott have expressed the view that taxes should be similar to other expenses, more-or-less fixed costs, rather than a percentage of income. I get the rational for your argument. You have to accept that you are at odds with the vast majority of Americans who do not view this approach as fair. Your views are extremist right wing, which doesn't in itself make them wrong.
It's kind of funny because I don't think yours do. You want the poor people and the illegals and tourists to get off without paying. You want to penalize those who work hard and make a lot of money, while lifting the burden from the poor. The tax system right now is set-up to almost have a socialist society where everyone is equal. I think thats bullshit because people who are smart and work hard should be rewarded. I think your way is 200 years old, not mine.Quote:
Your views reflect no sense of shared social responsibility. We passed that threshold about 200 years ago.
Waste of money. That's 42 million that I should never have foot the bill on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joemailman
The tax dodges exist because they are popular. Everybody thinks they pay too much, even if they agree on a general standard of fairness. The system is hopelessy corrupted by power. "Power" being voters and moneyed interests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Campbell
Tax system needs to be drastically simplied. My mitigated flat tax idea isn't bad.
Partial, listen to that radio show. It is interesting, includes different points of view. People with significant income are not actually paying 35%. The very wealthy are paying around 18%. Not sure what the figure is for your Pops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial
No you're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan Huckleby
Then answer me this Harlan, if taxing of job providers and companies is smart and good for the economy and society, than why are many, many, many companies moving south to Texas, where they won't be taxed on their earnings by the state gov. I think to say that we're extreme right wingers on our view on taxes is foolish. It's also pulled out of your ass. I would say a good majority of the people who clear 6 figures feel the same way.
Wouldn't me paying 10% of taxes at 100k, or 10,000 more than my fair share when 20% of the population pays negative tax money (gets money back versus paying taxes) and when someone earning 50k pays 5,000?
Since thats twice what some people are paying, I'd say thats more than my fair share.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial
Not all of them. Capital gains (under $500K) from the sale of your primary residence are excluded from any capital gains tax. And you can do it every two years. If you think the housing market is in a collapse now, wait until Harlan eliminates one of the most basic advantages of the American Dream - home ownership.
Actually, I'm not so hostile to the Fair Tax, such as Huckabee proposed. It would be better than what we have, if some offsets were made to help those at the bottom end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial
Probably some hybrid of simplified income tax and national sales tax could work.
If I invested that 6.2% of my earnings every year from now until I retire at 75-80, I would have an assload of money and would have no need for the program. Harlan doesn't understand this though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Campbell
He also doesn't get that wealthy business owners are again fucked over because they are expected to pay twice as much in. A whopping 12.4%. What Harlan doesn't get is that extra 6.2% would be much better served in the form of pay increases to the lower end employees, but the business owner decides not to give anyone a raise since taxes cut his profits literally in half.
I guess you missed my comment that I would eliminate ALL corporate and business taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial
You listen like I fly, as my Junior High School chemistry teacher used to say. Christ, I hated chemistry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan Huckleby
More Harlan bullshit. They don't make up tax rules like this just to win popularity contests. They're trying to create desired behavior. Roth tax rules create desired savings behavior.
Reagan's investment tax credits in the 80's created investment in business - creating more jobs and growing the tax base - at the expense of Harlan's brand of "fairness".
This is one area that would be tough to eliminate, people love all their housing tax breaks. Capital Gains, mortgage deduction, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Campbell
But all the shit has to go.
Right, the very, very wealthy. Not the 100-200k per year wealthy. I have a connection to the vice president of the southern region of one of America's largest companies. My friend is dating his daughter. In any case, the company is smart and operates out of texas so they don't pay state tax on their gains, and then he makes enough money that he pays a personal accountant a salary to invest his money in real estate as well as other entities to avoid having to pay taxes. In the end, instead of paying 35%, he is still paying like 15% or so. However, that 15% of say 500k is a hell of a lot more than average Joe's 20-25% of 40k. He is contributing far more than his fair share.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan Huckleby
100-200k employees cannot afford to do this. They can't buy commercial property and higher an employee to manage it. They can't have their own accountant who they employ (another tax break).
Like I said HH, those people make too much money to get any sort of tax breaks or incentives, yet they don't make enough to hide money and get away with not paying as high of a percentage.
I am against using tax policy to influence behavior. You end up with a mess like we have today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Campbell
And the theory that reducing taxes on investment income benefits the economy is a little twisted. It helps the economy, in its way, and leads to wealth concentrated at the top. You might just as well say you are going to lower taxes on people in the lower and middle classes, since they are likely to spend their money, and therefore stimulate the economy. Like our current stimulus package.
A fair, simple tax system will do JUST FINE.
I don't read threads in backwards order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan Huckleby