Touche.....
This debate is just frustrating to me. I've never heard someone say that both accuracy and decision making are not the quarterbacks fault.
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" You have an agenda, and that is the coaching is bad and that's what needs to change. Therefore removing any accountability from the qb is absolutely necessary. " yetisnowman
No ....don't be fooled yetisnowman.
Your correct in terms of their defense of anything anti Aaron Rodgers. You'd think their all 'mothers for their son'.
If you post anything -ve on Mike McCarthy your favorite beer pub :glug: quickly turns to cool aid on tap.
The claws and fangs really come out. You'd better have your armor on or have a normal sense of humor. :-)
I don't think that's what's going on - I think people are just not agreeing with yours - and others' assessment of levels of inaccuracy or specific decisions being 'wrong' versus being either a 'less worse' decision than another or just a reasonable decision gone wrong.
That would depend entirely on the quality of the objection and the nature of how its applied.
In this case, there is an argument being made that Rodgers must ID the flag being thrown before taking such a risk with a deep ball. But since that is very unlikely to be possible (flags of offside or encroachment come from the sideline and can be delayed), such shot plays would disappear as would the benefits. And that cost is quite high, the Packers have made a living on them. It very much helps their pass pro.
So we have an error and the identified solution is to essentially never risk it again because of the one bad outcome. That is just hindsight telling you there was one worst case outcome. No analysis that demonstrates the effect of the one outcome on the balance of the advantage or leverage the play accrues to the offense over the course of the season.
If a player doesn't do what is expected, then looking at him while throwing doesn't help. See the pass late to Lacy. Same with any back shoulder throw. Most pro passes are thrown before the break.
I don't pretend Rodgers played particularly well. Its a dangerous and tough secondary and he was clearly limited by injury. As Patler has noted, it has been affecting his accuracy since it happened. He was good enough to get into FG range, but not good enough to push it into the end zone. He also missed Cobb on a slant that, if not for stumbling trying to reach low to catch it, would have been a first down rather than short by a yard, resulting in a punt earlier in the game (never saw if he just missed or had to throw around an obstruction).
But I have no agenda on Rodgers. If you travel back in time one full year, I was one of the few harping on the offense's inability to deal with the San Fran defense in their playoff game and not just criticizing Bush for a bad blitz decision or Hyde's poorly timed jump for a possible INT.
I do think the coaches have some share of blame in this game. I would hold Rodgers to a higher standard (and blame him more) if he was healthy and played like this. But its very difficult to grade an injured QB except to say it wasn't good enough.
well I apologize for making assumptions I have only been around a few months. I am just going to be smarting from this loss for a long time. You just don't get a lot of opportunities gift wrapped for you like that. I will not absolve the coaching completely. However no one has told me earnestly they would have not criticized McCarthy had he made different decisions that resulted in a negative outcome. The scheme and strategy was in place, and the defense played out of their minds. The offense and Aaron failed the most in my opinion, for failing to render the last 5 minutes irrelevant.
And by the way Aaron has been healthy and played just as poorly in Seattle two other times. That's a big reason why I can't buy into the idea that it was all his calf.
Well that opens a whole can of worms, because I thought Rodgers played better in the playoff game than those other two games. Of course I also believe that he played worse in 2012 because of an absolutely absurd game plan up until halftime; the point being that there's a lot to look at in those other games besides Rodgers that affected his play including weather conditions.
week 1 23-33 189 yds 1 td 1 pick. He completed more passes but basically the same number of yards. So we still werent getting chunk plays and first down when we needed to. The difference is our defense was beat up especially in the second half. And Seattle didn't turn the ball over. So I guess we should just expect aaron and the offense to put up 15-20 pts and pass for 180 whenever we play seattle, which we will likely have to moving forward.
I don't think it's a fair assessment to throw our hands up and attribute Rodgers' struggles against Seattle as "oh he was injured and facing a good team." Too high level.
We saw what we saw, and it was uncharacteristic sloppiness from him. On the first interception, Rodgers customarily confirms whether the offsides flag was actually thrown before he takes the shot deep. In this particular instance, he did not. I don't know what happened on the second one, but I hadn't seen such bad communication throughout the season. It was a bad time for it to show up then. It seems weird that a player could be so stellar with avoiding interceptions throughout the season, and then make two really bad unforced errors (unless it was only on Cobb). There were also other unforced misses - the big one to Cobb over the middle and the short throw also to Cobb that prevented the first down.
I pretty much have no way to prove this, but I do think that Rodgers can start to play tight in the playoffs if things aren't going his way (sometimes he breaks out of it though once he gets into rhythm). In the regular season, I see an easy-going and relaxed player, but in the playoffs, I see him yell at himself more and look skyward. Tightening up can cause him to miss passes he normally makes routinely.
This is obviously not to say that he isn't the best player in the NFL - he is. There is nobody I'd rather have at QB probably ever.
OK, what was evident?
Flags are thrown from the sidelines on the LOS yard marker. They can often be delayed. The only time Rodgers does't throw is if the Ref or Ump blow the play dead (unabated to QB or similar). How does this square with he knows the flag has been thrown?
Yes he does avoid interceptions at an historic rate, his interception rate would be worse if he just chucked up prayers assuming there were defensive penalties. Do you watch NFL games? Why would you ever assume a penalty in the NFL seriously? I don't need a source, there are no sources on something that obscure and obvious. It's logic. Do you have source stating that its not the qb's responsibility to be sure its a penalty? So let me get this straight, if an NFL qb THINKS there should be a defensive penalty, he should finish the play as though there is one, and is therefore absolved of any responsibility for the outcome of that play?
On the first pick (Richard Sherman) Aaron Rodgers made a bad pass inside and to coverage. That ball was going to be a pick if the play was live.
As viewers we know when the QB has a 'Free Pass' because we see the penalty and/or flag and the announcer/color guy informs us of that 'Free Play'.
There is this:
http://www.packersnews.com/story/spo...game/22173121/
16 plays that cost Packers in NFC title game
Ryan Wood, Press-Gazette Media 10:48 p.m. EST January 22, 2015
" Situation 1: Third-and-10, GB ball on SEA 29, 11 minutes, 23 seconds left in first quarter.
Play: Seattle's Richard Sherman intercepts Rodgers' pass intended for Davante Adams in the end zone. It was a curious decision from Rodgers, throwing a jump ball across the field against the NFL's top cornerback. Rodgers later said he thought Seattle defensive end Michael Bennett was offsides, something the film confirms.
Potential impact: The Packers were in field goal range, so at least three points. "
The NFL gave Rodgers a Free Pass.
2 time NFL MVP as of tonight.
I just discovered that NFL.Com scooped the award ceremony.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...ist-of-winners
That reason might be that he was playing on one leg against the NFL's best defense. He didn't have a great game, but he wasn't the reason the Packers blew a 12 point lead in the last 5 minutes.
Quote:
Via EarlThomas.com:
Right from the start, the Packers did a great job of keeping us off rhythm, especially Aaron Rodgers. I have to give Rodgers a lot of credit. Going into the game, after watching the tape of their game against Dallas, I honestly didn’t think he was that injured. I was preparing for the real Aaron Rodgers, not the hurt Aaron Rodgers.
But that guy was really hurt out there. Going against him in the game, I could tell immediately that he was really in pain. And it sounds funny, but that actually caught me off-guard. Now that I’m dealing with an injury of my own, I have even more respect for him and what he did. A tremendous amount of respect.
Statistically, Rodgers didn’t have a stellar game — 19/34 for one touchdown and two picks — but Thomas goes on to say that he managed to keep the defense off balance all afternoon with his cadence amd that he wasn’t fazed by the Seahawks’ aggressive tactics. Basically, he played well enough to win (at least through three and a half quarters), despite a debilitating injury:
He used a lot of quick-strike plays against us, and he attacked certain spots on the football field. It played to his advantage that they were playing an aggressive team like us. We were flying all around, but he was moving so slow and smooth. His focus was on point. I think that gave him an edge in the game.
He also used his cadence to disrupt our rhythm. He was double counting, triple counting and the ball wasn’t getting snapped until two seconds were left on the play clock. They did a great job of controlling the game in that aspect. When you talk about a football game, the game is always won up front. We have a great secondary, but our front allows us to have a lot of leeway, and all of us were just off rhythm early on.
It's his responsibility to glance to the side, or notice a flag peripherally before just chucking it up. I'll ask in a different way...is it a sound decision as a quarterback to assume anything in the way of penalties? Have you ever seen a qb giftwrap a turnover, simply because he THOUGHT there was a defensive penalty? And you really would think well, aw shucks, he thought there should be a flag so it's not his fault. If Sam Shields thought he saw a hold on the offensive line, then let his man blow by him for a touchdown would you consider that his fault?
There is a lot of grey area in this game with the calf, play calling, and scheme. But if you can't admit that pick to Sherman was a mistake on Aaron's part, then I think you just have to own you are blinded by some agenda that I don't understand.
How the calf affects accuracy can really never be proven. I am of the opinion that the calf injury didn't cause him to throw the inside and a jumpball, instead of towards the corner where the throw needed to be. But again that can never be proven. I just think you have to overcome adversity....whether it's a gimpy leg, rain, loud conditions, physical defenses, etc. Some of you see a million excuses, I see a million opportunities to rise above and succeed. Aaron's performance looked more par for the course in the playoffs, rather than some aberration due to injuries.
Rodgers likes to take a shot at a big play when he thinks he has a free play. He's done this throughout his career and has had some big plays off of it. This time it backfired. That happens sometimes. The next time in one of these situations he throws into tight coverage and hits Jordy for a 50 yard TD because he thinks he has a free play, will you say he shouldn't have thrown it because he couldn't be sure the flag would be thrown? I know I won't.
Happened at least twice this past season - both times the INT was called back because of offsides. Granted, Rodgers and the Packers take many more chances on free plays (than other teams), because they seem able to draw the defense offsides much more frequently.
I hate straw men like these. Of course it was a mistake on Rodger's part. no one is denying that. The question is how culpable Rodgers is: that is, whether the gamble made sense or not, how justifiable it was, whether the wind contributed to the errant throw, the effect of the defense and the refs, etc. etc. So you disagree with some of us. What of it.Quote:
But if you can't admit that pick to Sherman was a mistake on Aaron's part
If Sam is seeing holding on pass plays, then he is doing his job terribly and should put his eyes back on the WR.
By contrast, a hard count or screwing with his cadence is precisely within the purview of the QB. Its his job to draw them offside.
But holding versus offside/encroachment is precisely why you fail to persuade. 99% of pre-snap penalties get called because there is nothing else happening and there are two sets of eyes on 8-10 players lined up in a row. Even if Seattle was drawn offside by a Packer flinching, there will be a penalty and the play is either free or comes back. Holding, illegal hands to face or DPI are all judgement calls and you cannot count on the flag.
Try to think of the last time one of those free shot plays bit the Packers in the ass. He's been doing it for at least five years. Name the previous times it has burned them.
Because it has been more successful than any other play the Packers run regularly. You might as well argue that running left is a bad idea because the Packers once fumbled on the left side.
You want a Rodgers criticism? The throw was late (or should have been thrown deeper/outside) or it beats Sherman for a TD.
He's discussing that one play in that one game. A poor throw by Aaron Rodgers. Not as much the decision to make the throw.
At the time of the throw Aaron Rodgers wasn't thinking:
'Ohh boy a defensive offside 'a free throw'... so I'll just let it go right there inside and uncatchable.'
That was a bad throw. That throw could 'only' be picked and it was. End of story.
Is that fact so hard to admit as the truth?
This is precisely the 20,000 ft. view I'm talking about. Let's go to the ground level and examine the individual plays. Was it injury and good defense that caused him to miss Cobb deep over the middle, or on the slant? Or Nelson on the out route? It didn't seem that the defense was a factor on those misses - he was getting good protection, and the receivers were open. I couldn't tell you if it was the calf, but Rodgers himself had said that because the injury is not on his plant foot, his accuracy isn't affected.
I've noticed some unforced misses from him in the playoffs - things that don't happen as much during the regular season (it seems).
(It should go without saying that he's still the best in the business, but I don't think he's immune to questioning)
I'm pretty sure everybody knows it was a bad throw. Whether or not Rodgers should have thrown the ball is I believe exactly what we were debating. Yetisnowman said It's his responsibility to glance to the side, or notice a flag peripherally before just chucking it up. My position is that is that I believe Rodgers has made big completions before without knowing if the ref has thrown the flag, so I was okay with him taking that chance.
If I have misrepresented Yetisnowman's argument, I apologize.
Yeti has made two claims;
1. That Rodgers should be certain a flag has been thrown before assuming he has a free play. Assuming the flag will fly is foolish.
2. That the INT throw itself was a poor play, along with several other bad throws from him in the game.
Of course parsing both yeti and th87 is tough because one keeps responding to posts responding to the other.
I've been posting all week that Aaron Rodgers wasn't right in Seattle and the fact that's the case had little to do with his calf injury given it was a week after his solid performance at Lambeau Field Vs Dallas. Frankly his performance in Seattle was shocking. He looked not at all like himself and a regular season performance. As a member already posted. Aaron Rodgers throws off of his uninjured right leg. As Aaron Rodgers admitted himself the left calf injury isn't a factor in the mechanics of his passing.
Did you see him last night just prior to his MVP Award was announced?? If so what did you see? Did you observe him when his credentials were announced for the Walter Payton Man of the Year Award?
Aaron Rodgers is an intensely sensitive man. Aaron Rodgers gets balled up in his emotions. He takes all that into a big play off game (that chip on his shoulder attitude) and it doesn't spell 'good'. Look at the best athletes in any sport and winning. You see a winner. What you see most assuredly is coolness and seldom any cocky confidence. You see the nervous focus of a winner.
That's not Aaron Rodgers and playoffs since 2010-11.