Guantanamo: "Gulag of our times"

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Amnesty International
"Guantánamo has become the gulag of our times, entrenching the notion that people can be detained without any recourse to the law. If Guantánamo evokes images of Soviet repression, "ghost detainees" – or the incommunicado detention of unregistered detainees - bring back the practice of "disappearances" so popular with Latin American dictators in the past. According to U.S. official sources there could be over 100 ghost detainees held by the U.S.

As a liberal, I am all for ridding the world of terrorists. Yet as a liberal, I am against unjust and tortuous imprisonment, especally on innocent cilivans. The fact that only 10 of the 500+ plus detainees at Guantanamo Bay have been charged depicts injustice. The fact that inspections/reports from credible organizations such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, International Committee of the Red Cross, the Washington Post and the New York Times all have found or reported evidence of cruel prisoner abuse depicts the prison's inhuman nature. The fact that the Bush Adminstration refuses to shut it down depicts that Bush just doesnt gave a fuck.

Should the prison be shut down? Yes.

[the_idle_threat]

I think if he shut it down and released them all in to your neighborhood, THAT would show he doesn't give a fuck.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I think if he shut it down and released them all in to your neighborhood, THAT would show he doesn't give a fuck.

Innocent humans are being tortured and held in a cell for years without due process of the law. Ever heard of the Geneva Conventions?

You must be a conservative....fuck.

[the_idle_threat]

Yes, both of my parents are conservative, but I don't see what that has to do with anything ...

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Yes, both of my parents are conservative, but I don't see what that has to do with anything ...

It has everything to do with this. See, conservatism is what's wrong with America, if not the world over. Conservatives are narrow-minded people who hesitate to change with time and they only know how to hate. True, liberals know how to hate too. Liberals hate terrorists, rapists, murderers, racists, child molesters and other evil wrong-doers in the world. But what separates a liberal from a conservative, and what makes a liberal better than a conservative, is that liberals also know how to love. Liberals love those close to them, such as families and friends, passionately and we love virtuous strangers respectfully. We respect peaceful gay couples, we respect women's rights, we respect peaceful religions, we respect human rights, we respect diversity; hell, we even respect narrow minded conservative fucks.

[Fosco33]

I'm not gonna say the this holding cell is unjust. What about all the POWs hidden away for years and years in Nam? Most of these people had direct involvement in a war and are being treated as such. If the US were to shut this down and bring these people to a US court, all the national security items would be flushed into open public court.

I do agree, though, that they need to be treated with respect and ultimately charged with something and tried in some way. Post 9/11, this due process question has seriously changed. It may be appropriate to bring them to justice in an international, military court that is closed to public knowledge.

Personally, I'm comfortable with the possibility of a few innocent people being held while this is all sorted out. Let's not forget how this all started people...

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I'm not gonna say the this holding cell is unjust. What about all the POWs hidden away for years and years in Nam? Most of these people had direct involvement in a war and are being treated as such. If the US were to shut this down and bring these people to a US court, all the national security items would be flushed into open public court.

I do agree, though, that they need to be treated with respect and ultimately charged with something and tried in some way. Post 9/11, this due process question has seriously changed. It may be appropriate to bring them to justice in an international, military court that is closed to public knowledge.

Personally, I'm comfortable with the possibility of a few innocent people being held while this is all sorted out. Let's not forget how this all started people...

According to reliable conspiracy theories (the X-Files is one), the US government is to blame for carelessly leaving POW and MIA soldiers in Vietnam to rot after pulling out.

A few innocent people? Try hundreds. Again, I am for getting rid of terrorists. But imprisoning and torturing innocent humans is a crime against humanity. There are more humane ways toward imprisoning suspected terrorists than Guantanamo, where virtually no laws exist.

[Fosco33]

Ok - this is a long read but I've highlighted the important parts for my fellow stoner posters to lazy to read the whole thing....

Guantanamo Detainees
Issued by the Department of Defense

The Department of Defense released a fact sheet in February 2004 outlining the status of detainees at the U.S. Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay.

The fact sheet discusses the process for determining enemy combatant status, as well as the fair and humane treatment that the detainees are receiving.

"An elaborate process is in place to identify enemy combatants to be held at Guantanamo, [and to] assess the threat they pose to the U.S. and International Community," according to the fact sheet. The released detainees have been transferred to their home governments "when those governments are prepared to assume responsibility for ensuring that the detainees will not pose a threat to the United States," it said.

Following is the text of the fact sheet:

GUANTANAMO DETAINEES

The United States and its coalition partners remain at war against al Qaida and its affiliates, both in Afghanistan and in operations around the world.

Since Usama bin Laden declared war on the U.S. in 1996, al Qaida and its affiliates have launched repeated attacks that killed and wounded thousands of Americans, including 9/11, the U.S. embassy bombings in Africa, the attack on the U.S.S. Cole and others. Hundreds of innocent civilians from dozens of other countries have been killed as well.

Seventeen U.S. soldiers have been killed in combat with Taliban/al Qaida forces in Afghanistan since August 2003.

The law of armed conflict governs this war between the U.S. and al Qaida and establishes the rules for detention of enemy combatants. These rules permit the U.S. to detain enemy combatants without charges or trial for the duration of hostilities. Detention prevents combatants from continuing to fight against us.

We have no interest in holding people who are not enemy combatants. To do so would be inconsistent with the deeply held values in which the American people believe and to which we as a nation have long been committed.

An elaborate process is in place to identify enemy combatants to be held at Guantanamo, assess the threat they pose to the U.S. and the international community, and regularly review all available information to make sure that their continued detention is necessary.

Detainees have been released when it is believed they no longer pose a significant threat, and they have been transferred to the custody of their governments when those governments are prepared to assume responsibility for ensuring that the detainees will not pose a threat to the United States.

DETAINEES AT GUANTANAMO

Guantanamo detainees include many rank-and-file jihadists who took up arms against the U.S., as well as senior al Qaida operatives and leaders, and Taliban leaders. The type of enemy combatants captured during the course of hostilities include:

-- Terrorists linked to major al Qaida attacks, including the East Africa U.S. embassy bombings and the USS Cole attack.
-- Terrorists who taught or received training on arms and explosives, surveillance, and interrogation resistance techniques at al Qaida camps in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
-- Terrorists who continue to express their commitment to kill Americans and conduct suicide attacks if released.
-- Terrorists who have sworn personal allegiance to Usama bin Laden.
-- Terrorists linked to several al Qaida operational plans, including possible targeting of facilities in the United States.
-- Members of al Qaida's international terrorism support network, including financiers, couriers, recruiters, and operatives.
-- Terrorists who participated in attempted hijacking incidents.

Representative examples of specific Guantanamo detainees include:

-- An admitted al Qaida explosives trainer who has provided information on the September 2001 assassination of Northern Alliance leader Masood and on the al Qaida organization's use of mines.

-- An individual who completed advanced terrorist training at camps in Afghanistan and participated in an attempted hijacking/escape while in custody that resulted in the deaths of Pakistani guards.

-- An individual involved in terrorist financing who provided information on Usama bin Laden's front companies, accounts, and international money movements for financing terror.

-- Taliban fighter who spent three months fighting on the front lines in Afghanistan and is linked to al Qaida operatives connected to the East Africa embassy bombings.

-- An individual with links to a financier of the September 11th plots who attempted to enter the United States though Orlando Florida in August 2001. Phone records suggest September 11th hijacker Mohammed Atta was also at the Orlando airport that day. This individual was later captured in Pakistan after fleeing Tora Bora.

-- Two individuals associated with senior al Qaida members who were working on remotely detonated explosive devices for use against U.S. forces.

-- A member of an al Qaida supported terrorist cell in Afghanistan that targeted civilians, especially journalists and foreign aid workers; responsible for a grenade attack on a foreign journalist's automobile.

-- An admitted al Qaida member who was plotting to attack oil tankers in the Persian Gulf using explosives laden fishing boats.

-- An individual who fought with an al Qaida supported terror cell in Afghanistan, personally establishing reconnaissance and ambush positions around Kandahar Airbase.

-- An individual who served as a bodyguard for Usama Bin Laden and escorted him to Tora Bora, Afghanistan following the fall of Jalalabad, Afghanistan.

-- An admitted al Qaida member who served as an explosives trainer for al Qaida and designed a prototype shoe bomb for destroying airplanes and a magnetic mine for attacking ships.

-- An individual who trained al Qaida associates in the use of explosives and worked on a plot to use cell phones to detonate bombs.

-- An individual who served as an al Qaida translator and managed operating funds for al Qaida. An individual who helped stockpile weapons for use against U.S. forces in Afghanistan.

QUESTIONING OF DETAINEES

Questioning of Guantanamo detainees has improved the security of our nation and coalition partners by expanding our understanding of al Qaida, its affiliates, and other extremely dangerous terrorist groups that threaten our security The combined effect of this information is critical in the ongoing efforts to disrupt the attack plans of al Qaida and its affiliates throughout the world:

-- Detainees have revealed al Qaida leadership structures, operatives, funding
mechanisms, communication methods, training and selection programs, travel patterns, support infrastructures, and plans for attacking the U.S. and other countries.

-- Information has been used by forces on the battlefield to identify significant military and tribal leaders engaged in or supporting attacks on U.S. and coalition forces.

-- Detainees continuously provide information that confirms other reporting regarding the roles and intentions of al Qaida and other terrorist operatives.

Specifically, Guantanamo detainees have provided the U.S. with:

-- Information on individuals connected to al Qaida's efforts to acquire weapons of mass destruction.

-- Information on front companies and accounts supporting al Qaida, Taliban, and Hezb-I Islam/Gulbuddin (HIG) operations.

-- Information on surface-to-air missiles, improvised explosive devices (IEDs), and tactics and training used by al Qaida, Taliban, and HIG elements.

-- Identification of HIG associates in Afghanistan.

-- Significant, "actionable" information on al Qaida explosives training, assembly, and distribution throughout Afghanistan.

-- Information on the training of young adults (age 16-18) for suicide bombing missions.

-- Detailed information on travel routes potentially used by terrorists to reach the U.S. via Latin America.

-- Detailed information on transnational funding operations in support of al Qaida, Taliban, and HIG, as well as information on individuals suspected of money laundering for terrorist organizations.

-- Information on non-governmental organizations (NGOs) providing financial and material support to terrorist organizations.

ACTIONABLE RESULTS

By "connecting the dots," information obtained from detainees at Guantanamo is helping in the war on terrorism. U.S. and coalition forces have:

-- Used this information in planning and executing counter-terrorism missions.

-- Developed countermeasures to disrupt suspected terrorist travel routes into the U.S.

-- Focused collection on associates of Usama bin Laden and al Qaida network operatives.

-- Initiated projects to focus intelligence and law enforcement resources on the financing of terrorism.

-- Expanded understanding of jihadist motivation, selection, and training processes.

THE REASON FOR DETAINING ENEMY COMBATANTS

Detention of enemy combatants in wartime is not an act of punishment. It is a matter of security and military necessity. It prevents enemy combatants from continuing to fight against the U.S. and its partners in the war on terror. Releasing enemy combatants before the end of the hostilities and allowing them to rejoin the fight would only prolong the conflict and endanger coalition forces and innocent civilians.

There is no requirement in the law of armed conflict that a detaining power charge enemy
combatants with crimes, or give them lawyers or access to the courts in order to challenge their detention. States in prior wars have generally not done so.

The Third Geneva Convention of 1949 accords POW status only to enemy forces who follow certain rules: wear uniforms; do not deliberately target civilians; and otherwise fight in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

-- Al Qaida and the Taliban militia did not follow these rules because, as groups, they systematically and deliberately have attacked innocent civilians and they do not wear clothing that distinguish them from civilians. Accordingly, the U.S. is under no obligation to grant al Qaida and Taliban forces POW status and did not do so. Rather, they are unlawful combatants who enjoy fewer protections as detainees under the law of war.

HUMANE TREATMENT OF DETAINEES

The Department of Defense is treating detainees at Guantanamo humanely and providing them many privileges similar to those POWs would receive, including:

-- Three meals per day that meet cultural dietary requirements.
-- Adequate shelter and clothing.
-- Opportunity to worship, including copies of the Koran and prayer beads.
-- The means to send and receive mail.
-- Reading materials
-- Excellent medical care.

Even if detainees were POWs, they would not have the right to lawyers, access to the courts to challenge their detention, or the right to release prior to the end of hostilities. Nothing in the Geneva Convention provides POWs such rights and POWs in past wars have not generally been given these rights.

THOROUGH PROCESS FOR DETERMINING ENEMY COMBATANT STATUS

Initial Enemy Combatant Determination. At the time of capture and based on available information, combatant and field commanders determine whether a captured individual was part of or supporting forces hostile to the United States or coalition partners, and engaged in an armed conflict against the United States. Such persons are enemy combatants. The U.S. follows an extensive, multi-step process for determining who is detained as an enemy combatant and which enemy combatants should be transferred to Guantanamo.

Assessments in the Field. First, in a hostile environment, soldiers detain those who are posing a threat to U.S. and coalition forces based on available information or direct combat. After a period of initial detention, they are sent to a centralized holding area.

Centralized Assessments in Area of Operations. A military screening team at the central holding area reviews all available information, including interviews with detainees. With assistance from other U.S. government officials on the ground (including military lawyers, intelligence officers, and Federal law enforcement officials) and considering all relevant information (including the facts from capture and detention, threat posed by the individual, intelligence value, and law enforcement interest) the military screening team assesses whether the detainee should continue to be detained and whether transfer to Guantanamo is warranted.

General Officer Review. A general officer designated by the combatant commander makes a third assessment of those enemy combatants who are recommended for transfer to Guantanamo. The general officer reviews the central holding area screening teams' recommendations. When determining whether a detainee should be transferred, the combatant commander considers the threat posed by the detainee, his seniority within hostile forces, possible intelligence that may be gained from the detainee through questioning, and any other relevant factors.

DOD Review. DOD officials in Washington also review those proposed for transfer to Guantanamo prior to transfer. An internal DOD review panel, including legal advisors, reviews the recommendations of the combatant commander and advises the Secretary of Defense on proposed detainee movements to Guantanamo. All available information is considered, including information submitted by other governments or obtained from the detainees themselves.

-- Approximately 10,000 individuals have been screened in Afghanistan and released. Less than 10 percent of those screened have been moved to Guantanamo.

Further Assessment at Guantanamo. Immediately upon arrival at Guantanamo, detainees are interviewed and further assessments are made. Reviews are based on all relevant information, including information derived from the field, detainee interviews, U.S. intelligence and law enforcement sources, and foreign governments.

PROCESS FOR ASSESSING DETAINEES FOR RELEASE OR TRANSFER

In addition to the review process described above, there is also a detailed process for gauging the threat posed by each detainee to determine whether, notwithstanding his status as an enemy combatant, he can be released or transferred to the custody of his government, consistent with our national security interests.

-- Individual cases are reviewed by an integrated team of interrogators, analysts, behavioral scientists, and regional experts.

-- Detainee cases are assessed according to the threat posed to the national security of the U.S. and our allies. Threat assessments are based on all available information from interagency sources, and are provided to Southern Command for review.

-- The commander of U.S. Southern Command, or his designee, then makes a recommendation in each individual case based on the threat the detainee poses to the U.S. as well as his intelligence value or law enforcement interest. Continued detention of enemy combatants is appropriate not only when a detainee is identified as posing a significant threat if released, but also when further investigation is required or if there is a substantial law enforcement or intelligence interest.

-- The commander of U.S. Southern Command, or his designee, then forwards his recommendations to an interagency committee in Washington that includes law enforcement, intelligence, and defense representatives. The interagency committee reviews each case, as well as the recommendations, to make a more fully integrated assessment.

-- The Secretary of Defense, or his designee, is responsible for making decisions about the release or transfer of detainees from Guantanamo. However, no determination is made without full consideration of other agency positions.

Because detainees at Guantanamo may be held for a long time as the war against al Qaida and its affiliates continues, the review process is being formalized for the future to provide each detainee at Guantanamo with an individualized, regular review to assess the continued need for detention.

-- A review board will review the case of each detainee annually.

-- Each detainee will have the opportunity to appear before the board to present information in his own behalf.

-- The board will consider all available information about the detainee, including information provided by the detainee and by his government.

-- This process is completely discretionary and in no way impacts the authority of the U.S. to continue to detain enemy combatants under the law of war.

-- The details of how the board will function and its composition will be announced later.

SUMMARY OF REVIEW PROCESS

This review process, although lengthy and complicated, is critical to our national security. A thorough review is required to help avoid mistakes that could result in the death of Americans or other innocent civilians around the world.

-- As a result of this process, more than 90 detainees have been released from Guantanamo.

-- The fact that al Qaida and the Taliban do not distinguish themselves from the civilian population makes our job much more difficult than it is in traditional conflicts.

-- The fact that some enemy combatants are released prior to the cessation of hostilities does not mean they were not properly determined to be enemy combatants under the law of armed conflict.

-- Releases are not without risk. Even though the threat assessment process is careful and thorough, the U.S. now believes that several detainees released from Guantanamo have returned to the fight against U.S. and coalition forces.

TRANSFER PROCESS

The U.S. is also working to transfer detainees, under appropriate conditions, to the custody of other governments that are willing to accept responsibility for ensuring that the detainees will not pose a threat to the international community. Four detainees have been transferred to Saudi Arabia. More transfers are anticipated in the near future.
Various factors must be considered before any such decision to transfer is reached, including the threat posed by the detainee, law enforcement interests, intelligence interests, and appropriate transfer terms, including humane treatment. Even though transfers are a complex process, they are extremely important. Many countries must work together in fighting global terrorism.

MILITARY COMMISSIONS

The U.S. plans to prosecute some detainees at Guantanamo for war crimes before military commissions. Military tribunals are the recognized way to try enemy combatants during wartime under the Geneva Convention, and they have been used by many countries in past wars, e.g. by the Allies in WWI and WWII. The military commissions will be fair and open, and will include:

-- Presumption of innocence.
-- Proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
-- Right to counsel.
-- Right to present evidence/witnesses in one's behalf.
-- Right to cross-examine evidence/witnesses of prosecution.
-- Right not to testify, with no adverse inference to be drawn.
-- Right to exculpatory evidence known to prosecution.
-- Right to appeal.
-- Prohibition on double jeopardy.
-- Proceedings must be open to maximum extent practicable.

Created: 16 Mar 2004 Updated: 16 Mar 2004

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Guantanamo Detainees
Issued by the Department of Defense

That's all i needed to read.

A report by the Department of Defense, which is part of the Bush Administration??? LOL. That's the equivalent of the top corporation in America doing a year end audit on itself.

Try reading the reports by independent inspectors such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, International Committee of the Red Cross, the UN and the European Union.

Virtually every nation in the world, including England, are critical of Guantanamo.

[Scott Campbell]

I here the dessert pastries are fabulous.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Oh, they need to shut the place down for propaganda purposes. It has become a world-wide lightning rod.

But I'm sympathetic to the government. What the hell are they supposed to do with these captured Islamic fighters?? It's a tough problem.

[Fosco33]

Guantanamo Detainees
Issued by the Department of Defense

That's all i needed to read.

A report by the Department of Defense, which is part of the Bush Administration??? LOL. That's the equivalent of the top corporation in America doing a year end audit on itself.

Try reading the reports by independent inspectors such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, International Committee of the Red Cross, the UN and the European Union.

Virtually every nation in the world, including England, are critical of Guantanamo.

Late breaking news... oh and the Brits - they just wanted their terrorists back - jeez....


World News
Bush says Guantanamo should be shut down

9.15am Thursday June 15, 2006
By Caren Bohan


WASHINGTON - President George W. Bush acknowledged today that the US military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where three detainees committed suicide, has damaged the US image abroad and said it should be shut down.

But he said a plan for relocating the prisoners was needed first and he also was awaiting a Supreme Court decision about the forum for handling detainee cases.

"I'd like to close Guantanamo, but I also recognise that we're holding some people there that are darn dangerous and that we better have a plan to deal with them in our courts," Bush told a news conference in the White House Rose Garden.

The number of detainees may be reduced by nearly a fifth, according to an Afghan official who said there are plans to extradite all 96 Afghans, including several senior Taleban officials.

The US military declined to confirm or deny the information, citing security concerns about discussing any movements of prisoners before they take place.

Bush said Guantanamo is seen by some countries as an example of the United States not living up to the principles it espouses on human rights.

"No question, Guantanamo sends, you know, a signal to some of our friends -- provides an excuse, for example, to say, 'The United States is not upholding the values that they're trying encourage other countries to adhere to'," Bush said.

The US military is holding 460 foreigners at the Guantanamo prison, many of whom were captured in Afghanistan in the US-led war to oust the Taleban and al Qaeda after the Sept. 11 attacks. Nearly all are being held without charge.

Two Saudis and a Yemeni were found dead at the prison on the weekend after hanging themselves with clothes and bedsheets.

The suicides were the first prisoner deaths at Guantanamo, although there have been many previous suicide attempts and hunger strikes since the United States began sending suspected al Qaeda and Taleban captives there in 2002.

Guantanamo is one of several issues that have undermined support abroad for Washington's war on terrorism, declared after the Sept. 11 attacks.

The suicides came amid an investigation of US Marines after an alleged massacre of two dozen civilians at Haditha, Iraq, in November 2005 and after the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal.

Bush, who spoke hours after returning from a surprise visit to Iraq, said he was asked about such cases by a member of the Iraqi cabinet. He promised to deal with the incidents.

"I also want the people to understand, here and around the world, that 99.9 per cent of our troops are honourable, decent people who are serving our country under difficult conditions," Bush said.

The US Supreme Court is expected to rule this month on the legitimacy of special military tribunals set up to try some of the Guantanamo prisoners for war crimes. Ten detainees face hearings before the tribunals.

Bush said the United States was also in a difficult position in some cases in which it wants to send prisoners back to their countries. Some of the moves have been criticised because of concerns the prisoners may face torture by their home countries.

According to the Pentagon, 287 detainees have left Guantanamo. That includes 192 who have been released and 95 who were transferred to the custody of other governments.

- REUTERS

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Yeah, I read that article before starting this thread. Didnt mention it because I didnt like the fact that it took bush this long to open up his eyes. But mostly, i think it is international pressure thats forcing Dubya to say he is shuting it down.

[Fosco33]

How 'bout more people in the world bitch about North Korea???

'1,743 S. Korean POWs in N. Korea'


By Jung Sung-ki
Staff Reporter
A total 1,743 South Korean prisoners of war (POWs) are currently held in North Korea, an opposition party lawmaker claimed Monday.

Quoting a National Intelligence Service (NIS) report, Song Young-sun of the main opposition Grand National Party (GNP) also said 489 South Koreans had been abducted by the North.

According to the report, based on the testimony of North Korean defectors in the South, of the 1,734 POWs, some 550 are alive with 885 confirmed dead. Some 300 POWs went missing in action.

Of the 489 abducted by the North, 103 are confirmed to be alive.

Song said there are some 7,300 North Korean defectors living throughout the country, while about 670 North Korean defectors are under the care of state-run facilities. An estimated five million North Korean refugees are hiding in China, he noted.

Of a population around 23.5 million, about 150,000 North Koreans are in the communist regime's labor camps.

North Korea maintains a 1.17 million-strong military including 1 million army troops equipped with conventional weapons, the report noted.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Who cares about the bastards at Gitmo. It's not like they were picked up off some street in America. These are enemy combatants. Let 'em rot. Too bad they didn't catch Zarqawi alive. A nice vacation at Gitmo would have been sweet.

[Partial]

You must be a conservative....fuck.

Thats so stupid man. The key is moderation. I consider myself moderate. I believe all human beings were created equal regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. While that is a modern view, I also feel that government spending is out of control and all that money should be used to pay companies wanting to turn profit rather than have people pave my road for 6 months and pick their noses' instead of working. That's a conservative view. I think John Kerry is a moron for wanting to raise the minimum wage to 7 dollars. This is another conservative view. The key is moderation.

Are you in finance/accounting? I almost guarantee that later on in life you develop a conservative approach to economics and tax cuts, etc.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Who cares about the bastards at Gitmo. It's not like they were picked up off some street in America. These are enemy combatants. Let 'em rot. Too bad they didn't catch Zarqawi alive. A nice vacation at Gitmo would have been sweet.

Actually, according to reports most of them are "sold" to the US by Middle Eastern bounty hunters. When money comes into play, the playing gets greedy. In other words, any bounty hunter can simply accuse someone of having a link to Bin Laden and profit from it. The fact that of 500 or so detainees, only 10-12 have be charged with crimes shows that "Gitmo" search process is fallacious. Some detainees were imprisoned for years without charge. Many, likely innocent men, were tortured.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

You must be a conservative....fuck.

Thats so stupid man. The key is moderation. I consider myself moderate. I believe all human beings were created equal regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. While that is a modern view, I also feel that government spending is out of control and all that money should be used to pay companies wanting to turn profit rather than have people pave my road for 6 months and pick their noses' instead of working. That's a conservative view. I think John Kerry is a moron for wanting to raise the minimum wage to 7 dollars. This is another conservative view. The key is moderation.

Are you in finance/accounting? I almost guarantee that later on in life you develop a conservative approach to economics and tax cuts, etc.

I have taken the Politikal 101 class for general degree requirements. There are, in the US, the extreme liberals, which i belong too, the liberals, the moderate liberals, the independents (libertians), the extreme conservatives, the conservatives and the moderate conservatives.

For example, I am an extreme liberal whereas Rankis is a moderate liberal and St. Lou is a liberal.

You should take Politikal 101.

[Bossman641]

Thank you for that mind-blowing political lesson Tank.

[retailguy]

You must be a conservative....fuck.

Are you in finance/accounting? I almost guarantee that later on in life you develop a conservative approach to economics and tax cuts, etc.

[/quote]


So.... This is what has happened to me.. I guess I'm an Extreme Conservative....f____.

Tank, er Ty, does that make you an extreme liberal.....prick?